Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunter's Campfire Are Atheists more honest than Christians?

Kent, I attended Church for a couple of years. I assumed the Bible had to be true because everybody believed it (argument ad populum). Since I like to excel at the things I do, of course I wanted to excel in my Christianity as well. So in accordance with 1 Peter 3:15 ... be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you... I went looking for the evidence that would convert any non-believer. The preacher said he could prove it, the Sr. Laity claimed they could prove it, etc. Week after week, all they could bring we was logical fallacy after logical fallacy.

Finally one of the Sr. Bible instructors said she had a chart of 100 proofs the bible was true. I specifically asked if it included non-biblical sources, such as writing from contemporary Roman historians etc. I was assured, these types of evidence were included. As it turned out, the document did not include a single extra-biblical source. All it consisted of was 100 instances of Circular reasoning, in part A the Bible says this, in part B is says this, see, it proved it!! <face palm>

After that, they fell back to Faith, basically admitting they had no evidence at all. I'd already read a good portion of the NT, and not satisfied with the "faith" card, I decided to read the Bible for my self. I made it to 2 Kings, 2:24 at which point it was apparent to me this was not the work of an all knowing, all powerful, and certainly not an all benevolent God. Scientifically and historically the text was inconsistent with reality, and featured an bumbling, morally corrupt, god with no foresight.

Of course Dawkins says it better then I ever could:

“The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.”

And that is not a God I can worship. It would not be moral to do so.

The important lesson here is I FOLLOWED THE EVIDENCE. When the evidence demonstrated that my presupposed idea was wrong, I followed the evidence, even though that was not the road I'd figured I would travel.

Here is the funny thing, I was not a true believer in God perse, until one morning waking to see the world unfold in a great dawn.

Came home and spent a few evenings looking up geology,flora and fauna then further up into space though the web.

Conclusion - there is something bigger than us, now did the universe spontaneously blow up or did another force make it happen, I do not know, but what ever, it is way bigger than anyone here.

A belief system is the basis for a society to move ahead and get along, and that is where religion comes in, depending on its values.

As to the op's question, I have found liars, cheats and thieves in both camps.

No irony intended.

It's the arrogant and moronic that flew right by you. But then, misrepresentation and selective reading do seem to be your stronger suits.

You tried to lay a trap with a 40 year old quote for Atkins, from a time when he still had hair. Neither I nor Mojo fell for your little trap, and now you are all pissed off.

Tomorrow is National Bacon Day. Be sure and grill yourself and extra large burger and cover it with plenty of bacon. Have a good night.

You followed religion, men and man's words.

None of that can start to explain God.

I'll tell you straight up God can't be proved. I've already said that numerous times.

God can't be described, explained, calculated, proven in a petri dish or bible. The closest it can come is anecdotal.

I abandoned the popular anecdotes because of the fallacies... but you can't argue against God, based on those fallacies, with other fallacies.

I admit I already knew your story by seeing it play out many times. Folks putting faith in church and the pulpit, and when church and 'man' failed your faith, God did too.

I only continued this conversation from that other thread to get your testimony. Of course I didn't have proof you were baptized as a christian, which was the bait, but I knew you were. I also know you are holding something back on your need to disprove God. Tell it when you want or never.

Heaven and hell is anecdotal also, so see ya around... lol

Kent

No trap, no anger...just pointing out what one of your fellow atheist said. As for the age of the quote, I'm sure that you will acknowledge that many of the arguments you spout off are not your own and are older than 40 years.

As for being pissed off, I assume you are referring to the words arrogant and moronic?

If so, you will notice that those are your words. You used them first. I simply threw them back at you.

Are you now pissed off that I quoted you? I would assume that someone as narcissistic as yourself would be flattered.

I may choose to have some bacon tomorrow...you enjoy the crow.

I can relate to where you're coming from here. Religion is one thing, but a relationship with the God who made you is something else entirely. There *is* a difference.

Some of your old arguments...revisited.

An 87 year of guy with Dementia......

Why would you want a personal relationship with this guy:

The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.

I never said I was Baptized, I said I attended Church.

However, here is the most important thing you said:



So you admit there is not evidence for your God. In addition, you can't even define him, which would be the very first step in presenting a logical argument for him. Belief despite a total lack of evidence. We have a word for that. It's Faith.

as a wholly untrained laymen, that sounds just like the ancient goat-herders gathered under the shade of various oak trees, discussing the issues, as their herds grazed upon the available grass.

the ancient Rabbi's deduced long ago that no-one has any hope of understanding the mind of God, whatsoever.

Actually Gus, there's more to it then that. It's a tool the preachers use to keep the faithful from questioning some of the outlandish stuff in the Bible. So when someone asks why God did some immoral act the preachers can just claim, "No one knows the mind of God", or "He works in mysterious ways". It's really nothing more then a way to quell inquiry.

well, it is a good way to put to rest the very strange notion that someone does know the mind of god. can you imagine?

what turns me off, is blaming everything bad that happens on the actions of a Great Satan (the US, Europe, or Israel?) and not on the One True Living God? I mean, let's get real. are there two Gods, a good one and a bad one? I think not. there's only one, and both good & bad things happens to both good & bad people.

I suspect God (the extraterrestrials?) created this social dynamic of breeding males & females, and then left us alone to our own devices. but, that's just my opinion, and most certainly I could be wrong.

the group needs to hold the center, and continue to discuss the various issues. thanks for your input. it's invaluable in the pursuit of the better understanding of who we are, where we are, and where we might be headed next. (we don't much give a bit of concern as to where we were in the past).

Gus, for those who believe the Christian Theology, God made Satan. Since God is all knowing, he KNEW Satan would be evil before he created him the way that he did, (he God, he could of made Satan any way he choose to), So by extension God is responsible for all the evil attributed to Satan. Since some forum believers consider Satan to be the leader of Islam, that means God is responsible for all of the evils of Islam as well.

As for your Alien theory, Hey, show me the spaceships!

Actually Gus, there's more to it then that. It's a tool the preachers us to keep the faithful from questioning some of the outlandish stuff in the Bible. So when someone asks why God did some immoral act the preachers can just claim, "No one knows the mind of God", or "He works in mysterious ways". It's really nothing more then a way to quell inquiry. [/quote]

well, it is a good way to put to rest the very strange notion that someone does know the mind of god. can you imagine?

what turns me off, is blaming everything bad that happens on the actions of a Great Satan (the US, Europe, or Israel?) and not on the One True Living God? I mean, let's get real. are there two Gods, a good one and a bad one? I think not. there's only one, and both good & bad things happens to both good & bad people.

I suspect God (the extraterrestrials?) created this social dynamic of breeding males & females, and then left us alone to our own devices. but, that's just my opinion, and most certainly I could be wrong.

the group needs to hold the center, and continue to discuss the various issues. thanks for your input. it's invaluable in the pursuit of the better understanding of who we are, where we are, and where we might be headed next. [/quote]

Gus, for those who believe the Christian Theology, God made Satan. Since God is all knowing, he KNEW Satan would be evil before he created him the way that he did, (he God, he could of made Satan any way he choose to), So by extension God is responsible for all the evil attributed to Satan. Since some forum believers consider Satan to be the leader of Islam, that means God is responsible for all of the evils of Islam as well.

As for your Alien theory, Hey, show me the spaceships!

[/quote]

heh, my friend, a lot of folks claim that they have seen UFO's. I don't know if they are truthful or not. I know I haven't seen any. but it does make a lot of sense to me. for one to land on the White House lawn with both CNN & Fox news reporting live would add a lot of credence.

"The important lesson here is I FOLLOWED THE EVIDENCE. When the evidence demonstrated that my presupposed idea was wrong, I followed the evidence, even though that was not the road I'd figured I would travel."

So........ once you "debunked" the Bible, you had enough evidence to convince you that the "burden of proof" shifted to the Creator of all that is?

Did you also "debunk" the Vedas and Upanishads of the Hindu religion?

Sounds as if you engaged in pseudo science to arrive at a conclusion which makes YOUR intellect the most powerful force in the Universe.

Here's an oxymoron for you:

Humble Atheist.

I studies the Bible carefully and found no evidence to supports it's god model. Yes, I've taken classes in comparative religion, and philosophy that covered the Hindu and Buddhist religions (among others), and see no evidence for their supernatural claims either.

As for your asserting that mine intelligence is the most powerful force in the universe, I'm flattered that you would think that about me, but I've never made such a claim. I just see no evidence to support your claim that the God that you believe is the most powerful intellect in the universe actually exist. I cannot put myself above something that does not exist, BECAUSE THERE IS NO EVIDENCE IT EXISTS.

If you have any evidence, lets here it, but I know you don't have any because we've had these conversations before.

AS is running very fast.He has lots of facts and the way he uses them is starting to make me think he is afraid of something.Kinda like that noise is the dark on the way to your stand.What do you hear AS?Slow down and rest.