Why Atheists are more honest than Christians

"First, let's discuss one of my favorite subjects--semantics. It would seem that we live in an age of word manipulation. Perhaps this has always been so...

Many logical fallacies depend on the straw man of distorted definition. This can be seen on many internet threads pertaining to religious and political themes (not to mention News networks). Before one tackles a certain issue or makes claims upon such, it behooves one to be clear on just exactly WHAT they mean when they use a certain term. To that end, let's define some notably pliable and problematic words...

For this discussion I define the term 'Christian' as it is commonly (if rather loosely) understood and used in American Evangelical and Protestant world. "One who claims to believe that Jesus was/is God incarnate and who believes in a penal/substitutionary atonement theological (and soteriological) view." There are several a priori and post hoc beliefs involved with that definition but they tend to be self evident. I believe this to be a misleading and false definition of true Christianity but that is irrelevant to this discussion.

Now when it comes to the term "atheist" there is far more confusion and confabulation than in regards to something as broad and murky as "Christian". Too often, it's the religious folk who decide that THEY are the ones who get to define exactly what an atheist "is" or believes. A sneaky backdoor to the 'No True Scotsman' fallacy, as it were. This obfuscation and redefining to suits one purpose has deep roots in mankind's psyche--and not just in the religious realm.

To be fair and honest one only needs to ask true atheists how they define themselves.
Here is the American Atheists Association definition:

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What Is Atheism?
No one asks this question enough.

The reason no one asks this question a lot is because most people have preconceived ideas and notions about what an Atheist is and is not. Where these preconceived ideas come from varies, but they tend to evolve from theistic influences or other sources.

Atheism is usually defined incorrectly as a belief system. Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods. Older dictionaries define atheism as "a belief that there is no God." Some dictionaries even go so far as to define Atheism as "wickedness," "sinfulness," and other derogatory adjectives. Clearly, theistic influence taints dictionaries. People cannot trust these dictionaries to define atheism. The fact that dictionaries define Atheism as "there is no God" betrays the (mono)theistic influence. Without the (mono)theistic influence, the definition would at least read "there are no gods."

Why should atheists allow theists to define who atheists are? Do other minorities allow the majority to define their character, views, and opinions? No, they do not. So why does everyone expect atheists to lie down and accept the definition placed upon them by the world’s theists? Atheists will define themselves.

Atheism is not a belief system nor is it a religion. While there are some religions that are atheistic (certain sects of Buddhism, for example), that does not mean that atheism is a religion. Two commonly used retorts to the nonsense that atheism is a religion are: 1) If atheism is a religion then bald is a hair color, and 2) If atheism is a religion then health is a disease. A new one introduced in 2012 by Bill Maher is, "If atheism is a religion, then abstinence is a sexual position."

The only common thread that ties all atheists together is a lack of belief in gods and supernatural beings. Some of the best debates we have ever had have been with fellow atheists. This is because atheists do not have a common belief system, sacred scripture or atheist Pope. This means atheists often disagree on many issues and ideas. Atheists come in a variety of shapes, colors, beliefs, convictions, and backgrounds. We are as unique as our fingerprints.

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For a further in depth look at the differences between lack of belief, disbelief and denial here is a short lesson...

http://atheism.about.com/od/definitionofatheism/a/DisbeliefDenial.htm
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Where am I going with all of this and how does it pertain to the title? Simple.



There is no concrete, verifiable proof of gods/God. Period. (Please don't even start with the circular 'nature' argument.) Without that proof all you are left with is, indeed, faith. And, to head you off at the pass, this isn't an attack on faith. There's nothing inherently wrong with faith itself (its by-products can be another story). The problem is with those 'believers' who talk out of one side of their mouth about the importance of faith and then state that said faith is 'fact' and can be proven. THAT'S where the belief stops and the Bullschit starts...



I can count on one hand (with leftovers) the Christians who have the moral, intellectual and spiritual honesty to say, "I choose to believe this not because of facts or proof but because I want to'. And, again, let me stress...that's ok. However, it leads to at least two questions for me..



One, because it is a matter of pure 'faith' (belief without or in the face of facts) how do you regard your version as any better or 'truer' than another's?

Two, (and this is the big, important one for me) how does your 'faith' then make you a better person? Because most Religious people I've met end up using their beliefs to judge others and make themselves feel superior--sometimes 'innocently' and often maliciously.



In the end, both atheists and Christians have the same evidence for God/gods...none. The Christian chooses to believe anyway and tries to convince you it's fact. The atheists chooses no belief and doesn't try to convince you of anything.

Who's more honest?"

WGAFF

There's no proof that there isn't a god or gods either, just sayin. FWIW I'd fall under the atheist camp by most definitions.

MojoHand;
Good evening to you sir, I trust this finds you well and keeping well away from the fires and smoke.

If I may, I've got a question for you since it appears to me there's a category of folks that have been omitted.

Where or how do you or the author classify people who have had experiences in their lives that cannot be explained by science or logic?

We can call them "supernatural" or "miracles" or simply leave the experiences as unexplained - but where will we put those folks?

I'm cognizant that my experiences are not yours as yours are not my own and neither one of us can truly understand or perhaps even empathize with someone else whose life experience is vastly different from our own.

But supposing there are people out there who have had such things happen to them that cannot be explained - would it be acceptable for those individuals to believe in "something more" than we can see, feel, touch or explain with currently understood science?

Just curious is all sir.

As I age I'm increasingly leery of anyone who says, "these people" are "always that way" and this is why - if you know what I mean?

All the best to you in the remaining fleeting days of summer sir and good luck on your hunts this fall.

Dwayne

Agnostics are the most honest people.

They don't know, and neither does anybody else.

I rather successfully ran my career as an agnostic. I worked just fine.

I will be honest with you. I believe in God and Jesus Christ, the Son OF God. Why, because I want to, I made that choice myself without any need for proof. In fact I will go on record as saying not only is their no proof but it may even be a sin to try to find a proof. I believe because I believe and that's all I need.

Just out of curiosity, which finger am I? I won't be upset if you say the middle.

Dwayne,

That is a good question. Mojo's views maybe different then mine, but I'm happy to take a stab at it as well.

Let's presume for a moment that someone's had an experience like you describe, something in their favor, that no one else is able to verify, and the is unable to explain.

A skeptic would just admit, "I don't know". This may be the most honest position a person could take. There are many phenomenon in this world that I do not understand. That does not mean they are the result of supernatural intervention, it just means I don't know.

Now let's say the experience was so incredible, the individual believes it is reasonable to credit a supernatural origin for the event, how do you make the logical jump to "God/Jesus did it". In order to do that you must discard all other possible supernatural causes, everything from Leprechauns, witchcraft, voodoo, all the other gods that have ever been proposed, Russel's Tea Pot, the Flying Spaghetti Monster, and all other forms of Magic. So even if you decide it is a supernatural act, you still have all your work ahead of your before you can credit for favored God.

In addition, "I don't know, therefore God", is the joining of a logical fallacy, and a largely discredited god concept. The fallacy is an "Argument from Ignorance", and the "God of the Gaps" theory. Once upon a time, the gaps were very large, but they've shrunk significantly since The Enlightenment.

Often, the types of events you describe are only perceived in the mind of the person who has the experience. Consequently they have no evidence they can offer to validate their experience. Now one of the basis tenants of skepticism, is that the evidence needs to be proportionate to the claim. If you claimed to own a 30.06, that's a pretty ordinary claim, so it would be reasonable to believe you on a minimum of evidence. However, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. We've all seen how many people were duped for decades with the hoax pictures of Bigfoot and the Loch Ness Monster. Since miracles are an extraordinary claim, the skeptic is probably asking what's more likely, that the laws of nature were suspended in this persons favor, or someone had a misperception?

If, however the evidence is extraordinary enough, you can change the mind of a skeptic, including this one.

Atheists work on Christmas and don't take the bonus; I think that's the meaning of the thread....

Agnosticism is a question of knowledge, atheism is a question of belief. Knowledge and belief are two separate things.

Technically a agnostic is someone who states they do not know a god or gods exist. If they believed any god had met their burden of proof, they would no longer be an agnostic. As a result, agnostics are technically atheist as well.

The only time I've ever worked on Christmas was when my Nation, through he U.S Army, asked. Once again you continue to prove you know nothing about Atheist.

Thank you for being honest....

Scott, per usual, you provide a straight forward honest answer.

As for the question, is it a sin to seek proof, many belief the search is justified by 1st Peter 3:15, which I will paraphrase for you:

...be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you...

Technically, you met your requirement by stating the hope in you is from Faith alone, but others may feed the need to present a logical argument to the logical minded.

Mojo – a poor assumption and weak position. Seems like you have pumped yourself up too much in an effort to press your views. I am a Christian and not for one second do I – or would I – say a word in trying to convince you or any atheist (or any agnostic) of the existence of God. I know quite a few Christians and believe they act the same.

BTW, your post seems to be aimed at something other than the stated topic.

Come on CCCC, you've tried to convince me before. But considering how it was in this forum, I'd say it was fair, and give you a pass.

I look at it a little differently.

Christians claim a belief,..or truism, so do atheists. However,no one really 'knows' they are correct...couldn't possibly know.

I'm in the agnostic camp. Personally I hope it's all true, but I have my doubts...as does everyone.

Most honest answer.

Christianity gives rise to great hope and great societies, so it's alright by me. My dad was a Lutheran minister for 48 years.

[/quote]

I will be honest with you. I believe in God and Jesus Christ, the Son OF God. Why, because I want to, I made that choice myself without any need for proof. In fact I will go on record as saying not only is their no proof but it may even be a sin to try to find a proof. I believe because I believe and that's all I need.

Just out of curiosity, which finger am I? I won't be upset if you say the middle. [/quote]


I find it interesting that you believe there is no proof.

What about fulfilled Bible prophesy that has all come true? For instance the prophesy of the destruction of Babylon and the bibles claim that it would never be inhabited again. One can go to Irac and see for yourself the ancient ruins and that the city has never been inhabited again though rebuilding has been tried by several and failed.

What about Isaiah's claim that the earth is round and hanging apon nothing thousands of years before the popular belief was that the world is not flat?

Why is it the year 2015?

Why is the bible the one book that has been sought to be destroyed by governments all over the world yet for some reason is the most widely distributed book in history today?

We humans ourselves are absolute proof that intelligent life is in fact a reality unless of course we are imagining all of this.

We are absolute proof of the fact that other intelligent life is a possibity and therefore cannot intelligently dismiss the possibility of intelligent entities elsewhere such as God.

If God is in fact the most intelligent being in the universe than the bible that is claimed to be inspired by God should contain wisdom that is far beyond any other book one could attain.

If God does exist and one reads the bible and finds it ignorant it would speak volumes about ones lack of intellect.

There is a very wise saying in Proverbs that says......it is foolishness on one part to make a conclusion on a matter before hearing all of the matter.

As far as your question about whether or not Christians are dishonest. If someone one is dishonest that person is not a Christian.

The bible states.......Liars will not inherit the kingdom.

2 Timothy 3 1-5 gives examples of false Christian during the last days. It says.......many will have a FORM of Godly devotion but will prove false to its power. From these ones stay away!!!

Perhaps these are the dishonest ones you might be referring too.






Shod

Ghost,

You don't understand modern atheism. Considering how most ministers intentionally distort atheism, it doesn't surprise me your perception are a little off, so let me clear it up for you.

When a Christian assets a God exists, they are making a positive claim.

The most common form of Atheism, is called "soft atheism", or just Atheism, and does not make any positive claim. The position of the soft Atheist is that NO GOD, OR GODS, HAVE MET THEIR BURDEN OF PROOF. That's it, nothing more.

There are also Anti-theist, which are also called "Hard Atheist", and they do make the positive claim, that there is not God, or Gods.

Another position held by some atheist is that no god or gods have met their burned of proof, and certain god concepts (but not necessarily all of them) can be disproven.

So Atheism is not a monolithic position, there are many variations within it.

I dont suppose anyone really needs to ask the question "where do we come from" or maybe better stated "how did we come to be".Its explaining this that religion begins.Any explanation is religion because no one was there.We all have our proof to support what we believe in.All belief systems are religion including evolution as it is just another theory.The only difference is what you have faith in.

Pretty much this…. ^

and:



Sounds an awful lot like the Christians I know….

nope nobody knows for sure, although some people seem pretty sure of their position.


perhaps it's just lights out, but I don't think so and certainly hope not.


but I will tell you this, leadership is important, very important, often underrated.


I'm a lot more comfortable being led by someone that no matter how smart they actually are, that they believe in a higher power or purpose than themselves.

one of the great hallmarks of a good leader, again imo, is not only confidence but a certain amount of humility.


that's just my experience of kicking around the planet for 50 some odd years.

and while I'm very aware of the major transgressions of those that say they believe in a higher power and use that to dupe others for their own personal gain

I've often found some of the best of the best are men of a deep and abiding faith.


YMMV and it's okay, I believe also we're each meant to find our own path to happiness and truth.

Well, thanks for your generous pass I suppose - but am thinking it's not needed. If you can show me a direct quote of my own words as used in any effort simply to convince you that God does exist, I will own it - and will accept your pass. Short of such clear evidence, thanks anyway.

Yeah, I'm not much of a philosophical debater, more of a Wheaties or corn flakes guy.

I like to keep things fairly simple for my simple brain.

I suppose I could break down the molecular difference between Wheaties and corn flakes, but I have no interest in it.

What is clear evidence?

Hey Ghost,keeping things simple is best.Atheism is not a religion in itself.Most Atheist believe in evolution which is a belief system (read as faith).They are not honest with themselves.They talk as though its fact and they know its not, its just what they believe in(have faith in).

Bingo and it does apply to religion alone.

Some Atheists seem to be just as passionate about their Atheistic beliefs as others are about their Christian beliefs. They zealously defend their Atheistic beliefs, as others zealously defend their Christian beliefs. Christians cannot prove God's existence, and Atheists cannot dis-prove God's existence.

This

You don't remember going 100+ posts with me during one of these discussions?

I think in many instances it's not being passionate about being an atheist, it's being tired of being told who/what/when/where by Christians.

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men. Because that which may be known of God is manifest in man; for God hath shewed it unto them.

The invisible things of God from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that man is without excuse:

Because that, when man knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were they thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

Ironically, it's the Christians currently being told who/what/when/where by Government.

How could atheists possibly be more honest......when they don't know the TRUTH?

So, if a Christian has faith and tries to tell you about it, are they being dishonest? Or is it only when they try to convince you of it are they being dishonest.

Does it mean that when you start up the discussion about Christianity being dishonest, whereby you pretty much prompt people to argue why they believe, subsequently you classify them as trying to convince you of their position, and further you classify them, by your logic, as being dishonest, that in the long run, you're just being a disingenuous troll?

Circular arguments go both ways.

No bullshit.

By the way, faith doesn't make me better. It just makes me, me.

If for some reason you feel that faith makes a person better - that's your problem?

As for the rest of your innuendo, i.e. "Because most Religious people I've met end up using their beliefs to judge others and make themselves feel superior--sometimes 'innocently' and often maliciously.", sorry you met those folks. It's obvious that they guide your opinion. Kind of sad really.

Answer the question of '...Who, what, where, did/does the concept of honest/dis-honest, right/wrong, or truth/lie originate with/from?...' and you will be more able to answer your question....IMHO

Anyone that believes all this (as far as we can see) was NOT created......requires much more faith than Christianity.

It all this has 'always been', don't you thoughtful and kind evolutionists have to believe a superior being would have 'evolved' in all these trillions of years?

Infinity in time and space requires that every possible combination of everything, has already happened, an infinite number of times.

If it was "created" why are things still so screwed up?

You're just one more example of a "Christian" trying to claim your beliefs are superior, and anyone who doesn't agree isn't as smart as you.

Thanks for proving the OP's point

Screwed up?

There's nothing illegal going on here.

Reminds me of the joke... a bible thumper and an athiest walked into a bar...

Kent

Is that the one where the Bible guy hits his head and says "ouch", but the athiest hits his head and yells, "God Dammit!"

I always liked that one...

There is nothing wrong with questioning anything in this world for intellectual debate, as long as both sides remain open to admit error, or learn/accept new concepts. When a debate is started for the sole purpose of discussing a concept in which neither side will do the above it is called a argument. I see no true purpose in this discussion other than to argue. Their is just as much proof of God as there are aliens, and evolution. So neither side is at a advantage here in this argument.

I believe that their is a God. Not because I was raised Christian, although I was. I personally have sought knowledge and answers. I at one point classified myself as agnostic. I also believe in evolution, just not that we evolved from single cell life forms in a pool of bio matter. We as humans will never fully/truly understand the universe we live in, so we should remain open minded to many new things in this life

Ha! the 'damn' it by atheist's always cracks me up.

A bible thumper and an atheist walk into a bar... everyone groans and walks out.

Kent

I know I'm more likely to be [bleep] over by a 'Christian', that I know.


You're more than welcome to an afterlife with Ken Howell and Ringman.

another imbecilic thread

The wise old indian...

Two twins in the womb.

Fisrt one says, I'll be a wolf when we leave this cave.

The other, no there is nothing outside this cave.

You don't want to be a bear or eagle, buffalo or snake?

No,there is nothing outside this cave.

The first says, there is a mommy and warmth and best of all love.

There's no evidence, it's a lie.

Look, look, a light, it's opening can you see it!

There's something, it's, it's...

Then an abortionist pierces their brains with forceps and pulls them out to harvest their parts.

Kent

The irony of that is there wouldn't have been any abortions going on in Indian country if it weren't for a bunch of Christians wanting religious freedom.

God does have a sense of humor, if nothing else.

Any "god" incapable of convincing "his" creatures of his existence would not be worthy of the title.

Of course, it requires the creature to have an open mind on the subject.

Interestingly......... those creatures who have truly opened their mind to the possibility of a Creator God become more convinced of His existence than of any other "fact" in the Universe. All other "facts" fade into insignificance once The Great Reality is revealed.

Thus convinced... an honest man can not try to convince another of the existence of a Creator God.

He can only relate HOW he came by his belief, and WHAT he has gained as a result of the exercise in open-mindedness.

A person self identifying as an Atheist does not have the capability of opening his mind to the extent required for the "exercise" to bear fruit.

Perhaps the best "proof" of God's existence is found in those instances where He instantaneously - seemingly of His own volition - blasts through the armor of the closed mind of one of His creatures in what's referred to as a "conversion experience".

according to a small but growing subset of the world, we all may have been misled from the start.

evidence is beginning to point the establishment of humans by a extraterrestrial input. thereby what the old people thought of as "Gods" were their extraterrestrial Creators.

not everyone accepts this new thought. and not everyone has to accept it.

I'm continually told this is a Christian country that was started as a Christian nation. I'm guessing it was the atheists that did the Indian killing.

There is evidence for one of those theories

And yet you have no problem believing an ultimate being just began, or has always been.

The science community always has it all figured out, eh?

For lots of people, their biggest problems start after they're dead.

Is that something you've heard about, or something you've read about? Or do you have some personal experience with that?

Sycamore

I can understànd where you're coming from. Many people's animosity and disdain isn't so much directed at God Himself, but at those who claim to be His followers.

No one has claimed they get everything right the first time, except the "religious".
There are more people in the world who are not "Christians" than those that are, so it seems arrogant to think they are all wrong and you are correct.

You are free to believe anything you like, but that doesn't mean it's real

There is no conflict between science and Christianity. We just aren't smart enough to figure out how the 2 compliment each other. When God wants us to know he'll tell us. It isn't something I worry about. And those Christians who constantly want to try to argue the point are showing a tremendous lack of faith in God to do so.

On the other hand most preachers and churches are so full of [bleep] their eyeballs are floating in it. Only a preacher can challenge a politician for stretching the truth and twisting the facts.

Yes, I'm a Christian, but frankly I'm embarrassed by most of my fellow believers. The church must first get it's act together before they can have any credibility.

Most conservatives sold their soul to the devil in the late 1970's in order to get Reagan elected. Since then they have stopped doing Gods work and became a PAC for the Republican party. Instead of doing the right thing they have put their efforts into electing the preferred politician and trying to get the right laws passed. All the while letting the church crumble around them.

Frankly God could care less if abortion, drugs or gay marriage is legal. He is interested in his followers doing the right thing. If the churches were doing what they are supposed to do the abortion clinics would go out of business for lack of customers.

I hate those Christians making me pray, go to church, no drinking, jail time for cussing, prison for breaking the laws against robbing, raping, pillaging. Hows a guy supposed to have any fun.

Bible writting uneducated camel jocks hearding sheep a few thousand years ago just made lucky guesses about Judah regaining its homeland, being carried to safety as by the wings of an eagle (yam kippor war (sp)), Arabs massing to push them into the sea, numbers of worthless treaties with them, good becoming evil and evil good, and all nations on earth finally turning against Judah and Jerusalem. Oh yeah, and some being too blind to see.

That would be the most skeptical position a person could take. Those with faith would likely take another. It's not a question of honesty, but a question of capacity. Those without faith do not have the capacity to believe for a miracle, unless that event gives them to faith to do so.

That presumes you know all that is possible. That's impossible.

You bring it on yourself.

People often look for evidence (or lack of it) that supports what they already believe...and they filter out anything to the contrary.

once the human species is fully defined, the God or the lack thereof will be much easier to parse out.

I see evidence in the fulfilling of Bible prophesy. Some will be sweating in Hell and still deny there is a Heaven, because they havent seen it.

Matthew 7:13-14New International Version (NIV)

The Narrow and Wide Gates
13 “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

I really think people who like to believe that are fooling themselves. Jesus told the people of his day that if they hated the Son, they hated the Father as well and that if anyone was going to throw in with him they should expect the world to hate them as it hated him. So no one should be a hypocrite and say you would love and believe in God if he had better followers. I don't buy it, that is utter horse crap. My experience with believers runs the gamut from awesome to miserable but it changes nothing about my belief. If you don't believe in God, hate the concept of him, and want to be an "atheist" just own it, and don't make excuses. Be a man and pick your side.

Honest people can be mistaken, this includes both theists and atheists.

Wisdom comes from understanding the true depth of ones ignorance, that there is a difference between "knowing" something to be true, and "believing" something to be true. One requires faith, the other does not.

Well said. Calling Jesus Christ a liar because Believers arent perfect is stupid will make a flimsy excuse.

I don't know is more honest then "My magic friend did it."

It did not originate from the Christian God.

Do you really think the Hebrews didn't know it was not acceptable to adulter, murder and give false testimony in court before the non-historical story of Moses and the 10 Commandments?

What's more honest, to say "I don't know", or to make up an answer when you have a total lack of evidence, or an answer that fly's in the face of the evidence, because of your "faith" in a magic friend?

So you are saying unless I can provide a physical fact to justify faith, its dishonest?

Not believing this was "created" does not require any faith, because we have the evidence. Faith is a belief held despite a lack of evidence, or despite good evidence to the contrary. The scientific evidence for the Big Bang and Evolution are not in any way faith based.

As for your comments on infinity, the Universe has not existed for an infinite amount of time, but a finite 13.8 billion years. In addition, the universe is expanding, so it's finite in size. The total energy of the universe also continues to decrease as we move toward "heat death", so again, we will not have equal conditions for an infinite amount of time, so your whole infinity argument is void.

I find it interesting how you propose that God, your idea of the most complex intelligence in the universe could have EVOLVED, but we are so complex that we could not have evolved? This is a simple case of "special pleading".

I believe you missed the point. Completely.

Following Christ does not mean following His followers, many who come across as judgmental, quarrelsome, disingenuous, hostile, and moralistic superiors who seem to think they are the only ones going to heaven and also seem to relish the fact that everyone else is going to hell. Some folks don't wanna belong to 'that' group. And although they remain committed to Christ, and their faith in Christ remains central to their lives, and they continue to believe in a loving God who created the universe... they choose to step away from the words 'Christian' and 'Christianity'. With good reason. Christ is infinitely more important than either of those two words.

Atheists and Agnostics are a curiosity.

For sure, Satan and his camp are neither Atheists nor Agnostics.

The Demons believe and they tremble. (James 2:19)

Atheists and Agnostics are deceived. Being deceived is not knowing that you don't know, thus thinking you know.

That's not too unlike the ostrich with his head in the sand, all warm and fuzzy down there. But his rear end is way up in the air and very exposed...

And, by the time he figures that out, it could be too late...

The Ostrich isn't that smart to begin with.

You'd think man would know better...

Unless he was deceived, of course...

DF

Over a billion people on this planet attempting to live on less then a dollar a day....You don't think that's screwed up??

screwed up with people I suppose. We should be helping folks more.

Maybe if everyone believed...

Oops, see, another circular argument coming...

What do you think we evolved from, and what's your evidence?

Is that supposed to be proof of something, other than Christians think their way is the only way?

Other religions think the same thing too

The poor will be with you always.

besides, you assume a quality of life based on money. Maybe its not about money, as opposed to faith?

Then what?

What you are referring to is the hypothesis of Panspermia, which does not require intelligent alien actors.

Just what is it they can "believe" that will actually change reality?
Be specific

Your magic being doesn't solve anything, since you never explain his origins, nor provided any evidence for his existence.

The reality that life on Earth sucks? is that what you are trying to get at?

sucks, for lack of a better term, is subjective.

I did not propose that at all (concerning God), but nice try.

What existed before that 13.8 billion years? And, what exists at the boundary of it all, given it's finite?

No Scientist has ever asserted that science has always had it all figured out.

If you take a look at your chart on the atomic timeline, you will notice all that progress was made by scientist, and there was no contribution made by religion.

You must whole-heartedly support man-made global warming models.

Has science been politicized at all these last 50 years?

You make a good point. Perhaps I should have said I think it might be a sin for a Christian to seek proof. Christianity is one hundred percent faith based. Through faith in Christ I am saved. Without faith what does a Christian have?

"Following Christ does not mean following His followers, many who come across as judgmental, quarrelsome, disingenuous, hostile, and moralistic superiors who seem to think they are the only ones going to heaven and also seem to relish the fact that everyone else is going to hell. Some folks don't wanna belong to 'that' group. And although they remain committed to Christ, and their faith in Christ remains central to their lives, and they continue to believe in a loving God who created the universe... they choose to step away from the words 'Christian' and 'Christianity'. With good reason. Christ is infinitely more important than either of those two words."

That's a little gem of wisdom, right there.

Might be a pearl.

I read one time about how you ought to be careful where you cast them.

That's just silly.

Stating "I don't know", does not in anyway imply the individual believes they know all possibilities. If anything, it's a statement to the contrary, because obviously they don't know the possibility that lead to the statement.

That is called a confirmation bias, and it can happen in any subject.

I will be honest with you. I believe in God and Jesus Christ, the Son OF God. Why, because I want to, I made that choice myself without any need for proof. In fact I will go on record as saying not only is their no proof but it may even be a sin to try to find a proof. I believe because I believe and that's all I need.

Just out of curiosity, which finger am I? I won't be upset if you say the middle. [/quote]


I find it interesting that you believe there is no proof.

What about fulfilled Bible prophesy that has all come true? For instance the prophesy of the destruction of Babylon and the bibles claim that it would never be inhabited again. One can go to Irac and see for yourself the ancient ruins and that the city has never been inhabited again though rebuilding has been tried by several and failed.

What about Isaiah's claim that the earth is round and hanging apon nothing thousands of years before the popular belief was that the world is not flat?

Why is it the year 2015?

Why is the bible the one book that has been sought to be destroyed by governments all over the world yet for some reason is the most widely distributed book in history today?

We humans ourselves are absolute proof that intelligent life is in fact a reality unless of course we are imagining all of this.

We are absolute proof of the fact that other intelligent life is a possibity and therefore cannot intelligently dismiss the possibility of intelligent entities elsewhere such as God.

If God is in fact the most intelligent being in the universe than the bible that is claimed to be inspired by God should contain wisdom that is far beyond any other book one could attain.

If God does exist and one reads the bible and finds it ignorant it would speak volumes about ones lack of intellect.

There is a very wise saying in Proverbs that says......it is foolishness on one part to make a conclusion on a matter before hearing all of the matter.

As far as your question about whether or not Christians are dishonest. If someone one is dishonest that person is not a Christian.

The bible states.......Liars will not inherit the kingdom.

2 Timothy 3 1-5 gives examples of false Christian during the last days. It says.......many will have a FORM of Godly devotion but will prove false to its power. From these ones stay away!!!

Perhaps these are the dishonest ones you might be referring too.






Shod

[/quote]

My proof comes through faith. My experiences in my faith through things like miracles along with the everyday wonder of life and nature are proof to me but I cannot prove that to someone else. The kind of proof that is being asked about in the OP only comes through faith.

As a Christian I confess I am tired of the same things from Christians who think I an not as Christian as they are.

"Not believing this was "created" does not require any faith, because we have the evidence. Faith is a belief held despite a lack of evidence, or despite good evidence to the contrary. The scientific evidence for the Big Bang and Evolution are not in any way faith based.

As for your comments on infinity, the Universe has not existed for an infinite amount of time, but a finite 13.8 billion years. In addition, the universe is expanding, so it's finite in size. The total energy of the universe also continues to decrease as we move toward "heat death", so again, we will not have equal conditions for an infinite amount of time, so your whole infinity argument is void."

When I read comments like the above, I think to myself:

My friend, A.S. is awfully smart. But ain't no way in hell he figured all that out by himself.

Other guys must have come up with these ideas, and A.S. believes they offer an explanation for things he can't "see" personally.

I reckon it brings him a measure of comfort to believe that SOMEBODY has the answers, so he puts his faith in THEM... the scientists.

Not much different from "believers" who have never had a personal experience with the "risen Jesus", but place their bets on the bible, or, the church.

So....... that leaves a blessed few who just KNOW.

And they know that their kind of knowledge can't be transmitted from one human to another.

Rather than feeling superior, they just feel BLESSED.

I just said "evidence", I did not specify the nature of the evidence. However, if your evidence is not something that manifests in the material world, that makes it really had to test and verify.

So let me ask you, do you think this is an "honest position":

I am going to tell you why someone happens the way it does. Now I have no evidence for this, and the evidence that does exist indicates I am wrong, but I'm going to choose to believe this anyway because, (I was indoctrinated to believe this as a kid, because it makes me feel good, because my preacher says so, because some bronze age goat herders say so, etc.....)

If that really an honest position?

You are being told a lie. This country was founded on profit not Christianity. The Christian nation thing is a history book fabel.

Gotta hand it to you....you're persistent. Let me ask you for an honest answer if you possibly can. A simple yes or no may even suffice......



One day we will find out who is right, won't we?

JDM, let me help you understand science a little better.

Imagine that someone commits a murder, and no one witnessed it. The detectives show up and find tire track evidence, foot wear evidence, hair and fiber evidence, the murder weapon with finger prints, and DNA evidence, all pointing to the same suspect. Are you claiming it's impossible to prove beyond a reasonable doubt this person did it because we don't have an eye witness? Are you saying such a conviction would require Religion? Such a position is preposterous.

As for evolution being "just another theory", again, you are demonstrating your lack of scientific education.

In science a Theory is a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world that is acquired through the scientific method and repeatedly tested and confirmed through observation and experimentation.

A scientific theory is a broad, natural explanation for a wide range of phenomena. Theories are concise, coherent, systematic, predictive, and broadly applicable, often integrating and generalizing many hypotheses."

Any scientific theory must be based on a careful and rational examination of the facts. Facts and theories are two different things. In the scientific method, there is a clear distinction between facts, which can be observed and/or measured, and theories, which are scientists’ explanations and interpretations of the facts.

An important part of scientific theory includes statements that have observational consequences. A good theory, like Newton’s theory of gravity, has unity, which means it consists of a limited number of problem-solving strategies that can be applied to a wide range of scientific circumstances. Another feature of a good theory is that it formed from a number of hypotheses that can be tested independently.

So the next time you say Evolution is "just a theory", remember, The Theory of Gravity, Germ Theory, the Theory of Plate Tectonics, Theory of Relativity (general and special), and the Heliocentric Theory are all "just Theories".

As for the Theory of Evolution. Scientist have the fossils and the DNA. We win.

Agree.

No, we won't. We will be dead.

Before you can asset that, you must actually demonstrate a mind that can act independent of a brain. When our brain dies, all evidence indicated, so does our mind, so once we die, there will be nothing of us remaining to "know" anything.

Yea, it sucks, but that's what the evidence indicates.

Here is the problem with what you are saying. Christ died for and loves the very people you want to "step away" from. If you are going to follow Christ you have to put up with and bear with people, particularly HIS people, because he does. It always helps to take the plank our of your own eye before you take gnat out of someone else's eye.

Show me a good action that can be taken by a Christian, that cannot be taken by an Atheist.

I'd put my money on everyone being wrong. It's not just Christians vs Atheists with one being the winner, its thousands of different ideas and beliefs all trying to figure it out. I'm thinking no one's done it yet, and maybe never will.

That is the damage of your Christianity. Because of some Bible verse, you don't even think we should examine the problem, attempt to identify the root causes, and implement solutions to reduce the suffering of other humans because your Bible says, OH, they will always be with you....implying, don't even try to improve their lot in life.

Thank you for demonstrating how a Bible verse can direct a well meaning Christian into immoral thinking.

You don't think starving, and not having access to fresh water affects a persons quality of life?

Do you honestly think you could have a high quality of life on a dollar a day and "faith".

In interesting to hear that you place more value on Faith then the actual real suffering or real people in this world.

My life is actually pretty good. But for the bottom billion, yea, it kind of sucks.

Before the 13.8 billion, WE DON'T KNOW. There are some idea's out there, but nothing that's been elevated to the level of a Scientific Theory.

What I will tell you, is that if and when someone does figure it out, it will be a Scientist, not a Theologian.

OK, Honestly - What do Atheist believe?

Do you believe that's there is such a thing as Good and Evil in the world?

How about the supernatural? Ghosts, spirits, possession?

I do not support man made global warming models. As the Economist Thomas Sowell points out, the changes in temperature and CO2 levels do not correlate. In addition, statisticians have demonstrated that you can put totally random date into the climate models and still get the dreaded "hockey stick".

Nope, the evidence for human caused global warming is week, and contradictory, and none of the Chicken Littles have provided sufficient evidence that some warming would be bad. In their analysis, they fail to consider the benefits of a warming earth such as fewer cold deaths, and the ability to grow more crops in higher latitudes. Greenland used to be green, and Norway used to be a large producer of grapes, during the Medieval Warm Phase.

Liberals are not very skilled at evaluating both sides of an equation.

Without Faith, what does a Christian have?

A more clear view of reality.

Curdog,

We all stand on the shoulders of giants.

Please see my post regarding the Murder Suspect. You don't have to see something in person to be able to evaluate the evidence. If that was the case, our entire jury system would make no sense. Are you really proposing that only someone who witnessed a crime could be on the jury to evaluate the evidence?

He also died for unbelievers, yet Christians are told to "come out from among unbelievers, and separate yourselves from them"...Christ died for and loves the very unbelievers that scripture tells Christians to 'step away' from. For you to insist that being a disciple of Christ means that you must follow the group of what has become a lot of 'Christians' and 'Christianity' nowadays likely speaks to why people have left 'the church' in droves, and it illustrates clearly what Steelhead meant when he said "it's not being passionate about being an atheist, it's being tired of being told who/what/when/where by Christians". Putting up with, and bearing with, the type of Christians and Christianity that I described in my post above...and more importantly, being a disciple of Jesus...does NOT mean agreeing with their position or being a part of their clique. Thank God.

That's exactly what it was based upon. The original colony in Plymouth had investors who paid for the ship ride over, initial supplies etc, who were expecting a return on their investment.

I figured as much. That has nothing to do with my question, which is one day we'll see if you're right, or I'm right (since I agree with the Bible). Guess you're a dishonest atheist and won't answer.

That's where we disagree.


I am still waiting to find out what finger I am.

Ray, good honest question.

At this point I do not believe that Ghosts, spirits, possession, Leprechauns, pixies, fairies, Big Foot, Nessie, Chupacabra, Cthulhu, or that the 55gr Vmax has mystic Elk killing abilities has met their burden of proof.

As for the concepts of good and evil, it depends on how you define them. Have people committed wicked, immoral, and depraved acts? Yes. Some definitions of evil require a supernatural actor behind these acts. Is there a supernatural force behind these acts? No. I see no evidence for that.

Of course different Atheist could have different positions on any of the above since Atheism only addresses a belief in a god or gods.

Technically most Christians/theist are Atheist regarding all gods except their own. I just take the proposition one god further.

Yep, Christianity does a great job of creating in groups and out groups. It's always easier to dehumanize, exploit and murder an out group.

You went to far when you put Big Foot on your list! Now you offended me.

Come on JG. I gave you a very complete answer.

Are you aware of an example where a mind could operate apart from a brain?

it *might* be fun to further explore if humankind would be better off knowing for certain there is no god, or would we as a group or species be better off knowing there is a god.

in the short, without a god, we learn we're responsible for our own destiny.

with a god, god decides. we can sit back and coast along.

I want to engage in both, from time to time.

Yea. I'm sure I pissed of a few people by putting the Chupacabra on the list as well.

We would be better of knowing the truth, and not believing in fairy tales.

Antelope, cut the BS man. Either you're right, or I'm right, and someday we'll see, correct? It is a very simple question.

I figured that antelope would be polluting this thread.

No BS.

You can't see anything when you are dead unless some part of you survives to an afterlife.

If your brain activity just stops, and there is nothing to move on, you will never know because you will just be dead. Kind of like before you were born when there was nothing of you to know anything.

on that you and I are in full agreement. the disconnect comes when one realizes that often fairy tales are the closest to the truth that we will ever be able to come. Joseph Campbell said it best when he stated mythology is the closest thing to the truth that we humans have.

Would you like to make some kind of rational, logical contribution to this thread, or did you just come to cast stones?

The Bible tells us that both Christians and non Christians will be judged, after death, and be sent to either Heaven or hell. Obviously you do not believe that, and I do, so......some day we'll see, correct?

There is no evidence to support that claim. If you wish to support it, a good place to start would be with evidence of a mind existing outside a brain.

OK. It's rather obvious that by avoiding a very, very simple question, one that can be answered by either yes, or no, that you enjoy talking in cirlces, deflecting direct questions, and enjoy it. No way to have honest conversation with someone with such motives. Adios amigo....one day we'll see.

The

My first thought is, why the need and what point in posting this?

To your question, I would hope those who do have a moral basis for life and how they live it. As an atheist you might ask yourself why do "I have to be honest, or sharing or caring?" After all animals are not moral; nor do they develop a morality. It must tick one off at times.

Your argument is false in so many places and ways, to unwind it would be like untangling a "crow's nest" in that $5 casting reel.

I suggest rather than making up your mind about what you think you believe and make up arguments to support it, you take C.S Lewis' tact and study the scriptures and Christian apologetics to disprove them rationally.

BTW, "a lack of belief in gods or supernatural beings" is a [/b]belief[b] system; ergo, a religion.

😊

I gave you a straight no, and explained why.

See you in the shooting forums.

Except for knowing what is going on in this earth by His having foretold it and the knowledge He is ultimately in control and will soon exercise it.

Scientists have only recently learned His word was correct in proclaiming a little wine is good for you.

George, you don't understand Atheism. Atheism is a belief regarding a single question, nothing more, so it is not a "belief system".

Now many Atheist follow specific belief systems, such as secular humanism, or skepticism, or they can even belong to certain Buddhist sects. They can even be commie Marxist who hold their position because of their "Faith" in Marx, Engels, and Lenin.

So Atheist may have a belief system, but Atheism itself is not a belief system.

Without Faith, what does an atheist have?

One heartbeat from hell.

Do you have evidence for Hell?

If so, lets hear it.

Or was that just intended to be another threat?

The truth will set you free, its not a threat. The Science you worship tells you that for every positive there is a negative, yet you only accept the physical and not the metaphysical. You acdept the flesh, but not the spiritual. You accept the whole, but not the black hole. You deny the balance for the things you see.

Science does not say that for every positive there is a negative. If hat was the case we would never make any progress and we'd all still be wearing animal skins and hunting with spears.

And I don't worship science. I don't get together with my friends once a week sot sing devotional songs about science, or pray to beakers and scientist. I'm not the one telling people they have to believe or they will be tortured FOREVER.

If you have any evidence for the metaphysical, or the spiritual, LETS HEAR IT. Of course you don't have any, and that's why you will just continue to blather on.

Those who believe there was an explosion in the presence of gases and minerals and chemicals which started life are saying an explosion is what caused the car they drive.

You accept the creation you exist in but not the creator.

God does not want us to give proof. If He did, He would have given it. He even says you are right, there is no everlasting life for you, but those who believe and have faith are also right and because of that they will never die. He gave us that hope because it is possible. Animals dont concern themselves with thoughts of it, because Jesus didnt come, suffer and die for them. Its not an accident their brains dont concern them with the things our brains do.

If you insist on being nothing more than an animal, you will get no more than an animal.

"Show me a good action that can be taken by a Christian, that cannot be taken by an Atheist."

Maybe bringing comfort to the dying by affirming the existence of a kind and merciful God?

Like I predicted. Lots of blather, no evidence.

As for your understanding of the Big Bang, just WOW.

There were no chemicals and minerals at the time of the Big Bang. Subatomic particles did form until after the period of inflation. The heavier elements formed later in the center of starts. Specifically, Elements up the the atomic weight of Iron can form during the standard fusion process, and the heavier elements are formed during super nova's.

Boy, ..you do like semantics! 😉

So you consider lying to be a good action?

An Atheist can still bring comfort to a dying person. We just might employ a different approach.

But the Christian would not be lying. Even you must admit that a God MAY exist, or you will have abandoned your precious science.

And how would YOU comfort a dying man?

Maybe..... "Well, Pard, you're gonna make some purty dirt."

Lying is saying we are no more than animals.

As He said, we would perform miracles, if you dont believe so, let a dog operate on you.

Yes, I remember a prolonged discussion and I remember some folks having been disingenous and evasive at times. Here you are citing a volume of interaction - but I hope you are not so silly as to suppose that volume to be evidence. Quantity of speech is meaningless without essential content. I remember your style, too. You are not citing any words from me in any such effort to convince you of the existence of God. Waiting for a direct citation of post and quote to that end.

Yea, the Holocaust proved that.

We are neither plant, nor mineral, so that leaves animal. We have big brains and opposable thumbs, that differentiates us from the rest of the animals, but the truth remains, we are animals.

The difference between us and other animals is that we have an air of self-importance/superiority and entitlement.

Why, I have NO idea.

A scientist told you that and unbelievably you havent the capability to see the difference. Perhaps for you, there is no difference. But as R Reagan replied to Sam Donaldson, maybe Sams predecessors were monkeys but his werent.

Donaldson was a liar, however.

Yep. You have no idea.

Russel's tea pot in theory could exist, but that doesn't mean there is any good reason to believe it does. One of the things Russel's tea pot has in common with the Bible is we have good evidence regarding who made them up and when which goes a long way to discrediting their proposed existence. Just because you can define something in a way that makes it possible to exist, does not in and of it self make it reasonable to believe in it.

Perhaps you are not familiar with the concept the the Null Hypothesis and how non-acceptance of a hypothesis is the default position until the evidence indicated other wise.

If you believed in everything just because it was by definition possible, you would have to believe in everything on my earlier list of non-beliefs. I imagine you don't extend that same courtesy to any other supernatural claim except your God, which means you are just engaging in another case of special pleading.

Oh, I do. It's cuzz some book told you that you're important and special, why, because you need that self affirmation.


I have no doubt that you, Eyeball, are indeed SPECIAL.

Yep.

Short bus to community college special.

You want to bet money on that.

Just because you grew up in an age and place of miracles doesnt mean His prophecy in that regard has not been fulfilled.

The pygmies would consider meds that would cure TB or heart transplant surgery a miracle. No animals you two are the same as can contemplate, much less, accomplish that. So you have the stupid excuse, well they dont have fingers. So, I guess He was right, we, the special ones, would perform miracles.

Join the Christians guys. Be all that you can be. Good night.

Animals:

Animals are multicellular, eukaryotic organisms of the kingdom Animalia (also called Metazoa). All animals are motile, meaning they can move spontaneously and independently, at some point in their lives. Their body plan eventually becomes fixed as they develop, although some undergo a process of metamorphosis later on in their lives. All animals are heterotrophs: they must ingest other organisms or their products for sustenance.

Most known animal phyla appeared in the fossil record as marine species during the Cambrian explosion, about 542 million years ago. Animals are divided into various sub-groups, some of which are: vertebrates (birds, mammals, amphibians, reptiles, fish); molluscs (clams, oysters, octopuses, squid, snails); arthropods (millipedes, centipedes, insects, spiders, scorpions, crabs, lobsters, shrimp); annelids (earthworms, leeches); sponges; and jellyfish.

Human[1]
Scientific classification
Domain: Eukaryota
(unranked): Unikonta
(unranked): Opisthokonta
Kingdom: Animalia
Subkingdom: Eumetazoa
Superphylum: Deuterostomia
Phylum: Chordata
Subphylum: Vertebrata
Infraphylum: Gnathostomata
(unranked): Amniota
(unranked): Synapsida
Class: Mammalia
Subclass: Theriiformes
Infraclass: Eutheria
Magnorder: Boreoeutheria
Superorder: Euarchontoglires
(unranked): Primatomorpha
Order: Primates
Suborder: Haplorrhini
Infraorder: Simiiformes
Parvorder: Catarrhini
Superfamily: Hominoidea
Family: Hominidae
Subfamily: Homininae
Tribe: Hominini
Subtribe: Hominina
Genus: Homo
Species: sapiens
Subspecies: Homo sapiens sapiens


Yes, we are Animals, Vertebrates, Mammals, Primates, Hominids, and Homo sapiens sapiens, i.e. Human. Deal with it.

Judging by the way some act, "animal" would be an improvement.

Surgery is science, not a miracle

It appears to me that you are placing the actions and morals of individual people as if they have them because they are people of faith. We are all sinners and far from perfect. People are still people, and individuals. I can say that it appears a lot of non-believers find God when the chips are down... but its not because of their faith, or lack of, but because of their human nature and their needs.

Peoples actions show what and who they are despite what they claim to be.

Lastly, everyone has their own challenges and stumbles. It takes a long time to understand deeply, if we every get there.

Wow!

You guys have been busy today. At least posting, if not thinking!

I find the variety of responses from the Christians to be fascinating and I shall attempt to address some of them that I found 'interesting'...

For most of the rebuttals Antelope Sniper has done a fine job and I can add nothing further.

Just wanted to note some special ones.

An honest man needs nor is defined by religion or not; he is simply honest regardless of faith or lack thereof.

He is that; one of the most hate filled individuals on this site. Between he and BarryC, Satan is having a freakin' field day with the use of hatred to twist the minds and souls of men.

Their own posts prove it; no need to ask me to do so.

Nope 4ager, you've got eyeball pegged wrong. He's a good guy who will go out of his way to help people. He is a very generous, honest, and overall good guy.

Dwayne,

I have always loved your humility and thoughtful posts and you ask a legitimate question.

Many people have experiences they can't 'explain' but often they are not fully investigated. In addition, as AS asked, why does it have to be the work of that particular person's particular God? This goes to the point in the OP that if faith is truly faith (no facts and provable evidence to back it up), then how does any 'believer' (no matter their religion/creed) tout their experiences over another? If one wishes to attribute the unexplained to the metaphysical or supernatural, shouldn't they should allow for the possibility it might not be their version of the supernatural?

You ask if it's acceptable for someone to believe in 'something more' than science can currently explain...I say, absolutely. Just please admit that is a choice not based on fact but belief.

I enjoy your posts, Dwayne, and wish you and your family the best this hunting season up in the Nothwoods!

Sean,

Let me skip ahead to reply to your post.

The question wasn't about general honesty..it was about honesty regarding faith vis-a-vis the facts.

In fact, you make a good point against many Christian claims that morality and ethics cannot exist apart from their version of religion/God.

Read his posts. He's more full of hate and expressing the same than anyone else on this forum. What he's like in "real life" vs his persona here, if you are correct, is Jekyll and Hyde.

How many racist (against black, Hispanic, Asian, Indian, everything), anti-semitic, anti-immigrant, sexist, homophobic rant posts do you need to read to verify the statement that he spouts almost nothing but hatred? It's right out there for the world to read, and it's as plain as the nose on your face. Hell, he even brags about doing the same with a client or son of a client to the point to where the guy walks out; this as a damned doctor being paid to treat a patient and not go off on a political/social diatribe.

Faith needs not facts, and facts need not faith. They are not mutually exclusive, nor are they mutually required. An honest person is honest; one that is not, will not be regardless of faith or the lack thereof.

For example: one of the most honest, caring, trustworthy individuals I've ever known is Buddhist (if anything at all). You could not beat a lie out of this person, and there's not a soul that knows him that doesn't take his word as true. Contrast that with a professed "christian" many times over that many know here that has made a life's work of conning, cheating, swindeling, and otherwise dishonest dealing in spite of the "profession" of faith that still fools a few.

The faith(s) or lack thereof between the two has nothing to do with the honest of the person; they are honest or they are not. Their "faith" or lack thereof is simply a disguise/mask, or an excuse, or not.

Here's your answer, Scott...

👍🏻



Thumbs up for being honest. Thank you! If only there were a few more on this thread, I could start on the other hand!

As a group, Christians smoke the atheists when it comes to reaching out to others. I am sure that antelope and others that will say that we are bad people, but many lives are helped by the efforts and generosity of Christian people.

Mojo,

Thank you for your kind words.
I can always learn more, so I look forward to reading your comments as well.

Ummmmmmmmmmmmmm .... short answer is no.

Stereotype much?

I've always found most atheists to be rather incapable of the basic human tendencies toward faith ... of any kind.

Atheists, from my experience, feel morally superior to all others claiming to be naturally superior, naturally more ethical and moral, than others ... especially those who practice organized religion.

I'm not crazy about organized religion per se, but I know in my heart there is something bigger out there than any of us can fully understand until we get there.

It always goes back to the big bang ... it started from something.

So if a person tries to claim they have proof of their 'faith' (which is patently dishonest) you would say they are an all around disingenuous person?

No. I've no more right/privilege to judge the "proof" of their faith than they do mine or anyone else's. Therein lies the rub, does it not?

Judge by the actions and deeds, not the claims.

You dodged the question. So let me give you another one.

Can you think of an evil action that can only be committed by a religious person?

Many of the response to this thread were just...WOW!

George, RWE, Werner, Eyeball, JGRaider...

Just...WOW!

They are the ones who others referenced as Christians who drive others away.

Compare "christians" while we are at it.

Find a man here who would, without hesitation, question the honesty of Mickey Coleman (God rest him), who was a friend to all and a devout Christian.

Find a man here who would, without hesitation, trust the honesty/word of safariman, who claims to be a friend to all and a devout Christian.

If that doesn't point out the difference, then I'm not sure what would/will.

I was brought up in and indoctrinated in religion, but I have a hard time buying into the whole package. Yeah there are words of wisdom to live by, then again those ideas aren't monopolized by the religious either.

We judge all kinds of claims made everyday. There is no reason not to use your reason to evaluate the validity of a claim just because some says it is based on "Faith".

You misjudge RWE, by a long shot.

Ever been around a house cat? They are the experts on self-importance/superiority and entitlement.

It's amazing how quickly a good dog fixes both problems.

Now THAT is a great thought.

I've often discussed with my buddy how it's so interesting that modern Christians assert that they have the truth with such authority. Even through the relatively short and narrow window of history that Christianity has occupied there have been (and still are) great and varied opinions and interpretations of nearly every theological aspect by many pious, intelligent well-meaning men. If there is little consensus amongst the adherents of 'Christianity' (in the broad sense) after 2000 yrs, why are so many saying believe this or burn?

One would think this would lead to a lot more humility among believers and a conviction to truly 'not judge' and merely live a life of plank self-removal...

That is also damning evidence against a 'inspired and infallible' view of scripture. If that were true, then god is the Worst. Editor. Ever.

Scott, when did you gain all your experience with Cat Houses?

Zealots, whether Christian, Jew, Muslim, Atheist, or Zoroastrian, or anything in between, believe they have a monopoly on "truth". The bad among them seek to denigrate, defile, shame, and marginalize anyone else. The worst among them can, have, and will, seek to kill anyone other than "true believers", and history proves that true.

"Truth" is beholden to no monopoly, and neither is honesty.

He was in the Navy.

Hard to imagine he is a real doctor as his lack of intelligence is clear. I have never known a true dumbazz doctor. Disagree yes, dumbazz no.

Agreed. I would be willing to bet Mr. Antelope_Sniper is a honourable and honest man. I don't always agree with him but he has shown himself to be a gentleman in my book. I don't think he is a Christian.

Honestly is relative. There is no shortage of hypocrites, be they Aetheists or Christians or Buddists or booger eaters. Mendacity is a common malady among our species - some just do it better, or worse, than others. Others still, they justify it for cause or reason.

Honesty has nothing to do with religion but I always get a kick out of the so-called intellectual atheist argument that religion dogma cannot be proved.

Neither can it be proved that there is no higher power or being.

Yet they radical atheist will argue until he or she is blue in the face that his anti-religion religion is superior to those with faith in a higher authority.

That's normally where I just lulz at the atheist and grab some popcorn and sit back and watch the show.

Doing right, doing good ... it's not about religion. Encouraging others to do the same, turning the other cheek, having faith in an unseen guiding entity ... that IS about religion.

In today's world it is much tougher to be one than the other.

I find most atheists to be cowards in real life. Most, not all. I know a few.

Atheists, especially the many radicals who practice that particular religion out there these days ... they feel intellectually superior to Christians, and the militant atheists want war against the Christians ... but they are terrified to speak out against Islam.

Is that honesty within the atheists? Of course not ... it is the epitome of mendacity.

Nope. Not 'judging' him. Just his Bullschit posts made here on this thread. Perhaps he didn't express himself or his thoughts accurately?

Honesty is not relative. Either it is true, or it is not. One is honest, or they are not.

You toss red herrings to bait the discussion away from truth, and from honesty, and that in and of itself is telling.

Words are way overrated trying to prove or disprove God.

Kent

He's a sarcastic bastard with a wicked dry sense of humor and a sharp wit, but he is FAR from dishonest and very far from the type of "christian" you make him out to be.

That may be the most truthful statement of this whole damned thread (and many - possibly any - other).

Wow...

That post was like looking at a field of scarecrows...

I suspect that is the case. It's possible he has not thought some of his positions all the way through, and if he had, he would be able to express himself is a more positive light.

Thank you Sir for the kind words.

You obviously know little of the animal kingdom. I guess you've never heard of the alpha and omega order of nature.

If one believes in intelligent design let's say. Then we evolved from apes or [bleep] or whatever ... lizards, who cares.

We evolved, we learned to reason, but how? It wasn't strictly about eating more protein and enlarging our brains.

We evolved and learned to reason by developing a social pecking order. We learned to recognize members of our evolutionary species according to their individual talents. Some made fire, some hunted, some had intellectual thoughts about stars and the sky. Some learned to communicate and they were probably the first lying politicians.

If you've ever observed a pack of sled dogs for instance ... believe me, there is a pecking order and some believe they are superior to others. I've seen the same traits among chickens, cows, pigs and horses.

So don't kid yourself into believing we are unique as a species when it comes to being haughty and holier than thou.

Ask a sheep if a wolf believes it is superior to the sheep. Ask the wolf the same question.

Might making right does not honesty make.

I'm betting the sheep doesn't think that 'Gee, I believe in Santa Claus, so regardless of the bad wolf, I'm getting a grand reward after the wolf eats me.'

Sean,

I would only say he is dishonest if he tries to tell me his faith is based on facts. He may be be an honest person otherwise (although someone stated that a person is either honest or dishonest religion notwithstanding...now who was that?)

Perhaps you misinterpreted my lumping of him in with the others mentioned. That was not to intimate that he was of the same character as the others, only that his posts were of the same quality (and only in regards to this thread).

I don't know any here personally so I can only make inferences from their posts. In that vein, there are few, if any, that deserve to be lumped in with Eyeball, that's for damn sure.

So, no...I wasn't implying he was of the same moral character as any others in that list.

He may not care to espouse his thoughts here, either. I've had MANY conversations with RWE. He's far more than y'all give him credit or take him for. He's thought through it all, many times over; but I've never once known him to claim he has all the answers.

Ahhhhhhhhhh ... here we go. They vaguely snippy retort from the self-described intellectually superior atheist who casts all Christians into the ignorant and dishonest category.

Okay, I'm ready. How do you wish to do this? Because your anti-Christian (sic and apropos) argument, up until now, has been boringly predictable.

Yep, especially the "truths" that our rights and independence were based on.....

One thing is certain, the wishing in one hand dictum gets no argument from me.

We're [bleep]...good thing we have the semantics to entertain as the ship sinks.

I have no idea what you're getting at or why, frankly. Religion and honesty are often mutually exclusive; if not always so. Faith and honesty have nothing in common as one can have one without the other, or both, or neither.

And I'm betting you can't prove that contention.

You have know way of knowing what that sheep or wolf thinks - but thank you for taking the bait.

So far this topic has been mostly debated in a sane and intelligent manor. Please lets not get into a name calling and pissing match.

4ager, go back and read RWE's posts on this thread. Read them carefully, and then you will understand.

As a stated in the "Jesus Picture" thread, I have no reason to doubt the mans character, but some of his posts on this thread were a little wonky.

Though I have failed a time or two, I do try to be honest but faith, as in the Christian faith, cannot be argued on an Internet forum when "your side" doesn't want to hear anyway. It appears that you've chosen whatever world view you have necessitating denial of a faith that counters it.

The Catch-22 with the Cnristian faith is, if you have it, it is confirmed in you literally by God's Spirit; conversely, by denying or rejecting the Gospel (orthodox Christianity), you become spiritually blind to it and cannot accept it or discern it. So if you won't, don't believe, you can't believe. How then? By earnestly seeking--God draws near to those who search for Him. Christ does not kick the door to your heart down and come in; it is said, "the lock to your heart's door is on the inside."

Assuming for a second or two that my statement above is correct, consider your position-- by your rejection, you risk an eternity of separation from God, and won't even know it (until too late!) affirming yourself in denial. If you are really intellectually honest, you will have to give pause to that thought, do some more studying, research, and questioning.

I'm always open to PMs about this if you are truly open to it because of its importance (an understatement if there ever was one) which is why I posted this, but can carry it no further in this thread.

'Evening gents. 🌅

We can actually establish much about their possible range of thoughts by studying the size and structure of their brains. So we may know more on this subject then you think.

I don't have to read them; I know the man. This thread is an abortion from the get go, and he's simply casting logs on the fire. I can't blame him.

Really? Debating who is more honest in generalities between one faith and another? You might as well stand there and ask a hooker to measure the respective peckers for all the good it will do.

Think about it.

You should see how they distort each others denominational beliefs.

I hardly ever reply to these type threads any more cause its usually pointless. All I have to say is honesty is more of a human condition and is very individual. I know just as many Christians that are full of crappie as non believers. But many of the Christians that I know that are really up right before God weren't that way before they became Christians but the ones that are just like every body else were the same before they became christians. I changed a lot,,, then life and bad deeds of people around me made me see that most people aren't worth much and my mercy and compassion tank is now almost bone dry. I am trying to turn that around and not alow that to carry over to everybody. But being less trusting has served me well in the past few years.

I don't really know where I'm going with this, just kinda thinking out loud. I guess I'm just saying I have seen Christianity not change some people and I've seen a huge change in others including myself only to go back and forth with old struggles but never completely turning back to my old ways. As for the PROOF, I don't need it but I got it. When your in a lot of pain and someone prays for you in the name of Jesus and the pain leaves,,, we'll that's proof enuff for me. Nobody can convince me otherwise. A man with an experience is never at the mercy of a man with an argument. Just sayin, but believe whatever you want I'm not the Holy Spirit jr. or the barney fife or heaven everybody is entitled to live as they see fit. I don't throw rocks cause I live in a glass house. I can't blame someone for believing different than me when they have had a completely different experience. Sorry if some words are not right, auto correct sux and I'm to sleepy to check it. Good night all.

Come on, Sean..

I'm not trying to get at anything. And this thread was never about general honesty among or between religious and non-religious people.

A simple question was asked...is it more honest to affirm that there is no factual evidence for a god or to assert that there is to back up your beliefs.

Pure and simple. Anyone who read more into it than that is too sensitive...


And, yes, I agree with you that honesty has nothing to do with religion or lack thereof (not inherently, anyway).

Posted like a true liberal progressive atheist.

The Internet is teaming with dishonest people hiding behind the guise of anonymity ... posting behind usernames accompanied by avatars and preaching our own special brand of religion.

It is the religion of hubris.

As a religious person who considers myself a Christian (even though my wife would argue that claim at times) I am at least honest enough to accept the need for anonymity in today's world, in some cases ... while often times wishing those who violate the rules of basic human decency be exposed for who, and what, they are.

Yet somehow free speech has been convoluted into being confused with the right to say and do anything while hiding behind the anonymity of the Internet ... even encouraged.

Anyone on the Internet taking a holier than thou position on honesty ... my bet is that they are usually the biggest liars IRL. Oh, and I've been witnessing the devolution of the Internet and its users since the old usenet days ... we've yet to bottom out.

You come on with the hierarchy of animals and when called on it because might in that world rules, but might does not make right, you resort to claiming that any that disagree are "progressive liberals"?

Honesty requires not religion, nor vice versa. Might no more makes right now than it did under the Pharaohs or Caesar. That's not progressivism; it's truth. That you can't figure it out, says much.

Carry on, though.

Blah blah blah yada yada yada.

We can't even begin to understand why women are as crazy as they are!

lulz

Anyways, pray tell, who is this "we" you post of?

Are humans superior, intellectually, ethically, morally or spiritually speaking of course, to dolphins and whales?

I absolutely cannot wait for your response.

Religion does not require honesty; it requires faith. They are not mutually exclusive, nor are they mutually required.

You asked a question by stating a premise. You claimed, or asserted, in your question that atheists are more honest than christians and in the phrasing asked that your premise be disproven.

Neither is more or less honest than the other, as a general rule - it comes down to the individual. There is your answer.

You wouldn't understand or acknowledge a thoughtful or proper response, as is evidenced by your own.

You illustrate to me, anywhere in this realm, where might does not rule ... with regard to anything. Ants, snakes, dogs, monkeys, viruses, whatever you choose ... and we'll go from there. Okay? Deal?

Sure. Jesus Himself bucked the "might making right" rule; He perished at the hands of the Romans, died according to their might, yet rose and claimed victory.

One can also look to Moses leading the Hebrew slaves out of Egypt away from the most powerful empire of the time; the lowest of the low claiming victory from the strongest of the strong.

Might does not make right; and certainly does not make honesty.

If you can't fathom that, then much is lost upon you.

Of course, none of that matters to the context, nor to your red herring posts or inability to form or contain cogent thoughts and an on-point argument, if only further proof of the issue at hand.

So, in other words, you give ... you're saying Uncle, amirite? You are intellectually incapable of answering the simple question.

I thought so.

It always ends this way with atheists.

Dangit ... we're not even going to get into what's beyond the edge of our known universe. I'm so disappointed. No dialogue about where it began or where it ends. No speculation on where it all comes from. None of the good stuff.

I've been a member here for years. I rarely post, but I do a lot of lurking.

So here's a question for all of you atheist hunters in this thread.

When you kill an animal (the act of a successful hunt) ... does it have any specific spiritual, moral or ethical meaning to you? Or is it just you being superior, ending the animal's life and then, if you're up to it, you'll dress the animal out and eat it thus nourishing your body on a molecular level because you are the superior being and your life energy force, or whatever, requires that you supply it with the necessary nutrients broken down through your evolutionary adapted digestive system it in order to maintain your temporary presence on this plane of existence?

We agree to agree! Honestly, in a way you're making my point.

I concede that my title could've been more specific. It may have been unintentionally too 'click-bait-ish'. I thought my point (and the specificity of it) was obvious following my conclusions and particularly, the last paragraph. Guess not...

Just to be clear to those who didn't get the point...I wasn't claiming Christians are inherently dishonest in all that they do because they're Christians or that Atheists are naturally more honest because of their views.

It was only in regards to the very specific situation described in the OP.

Thanks for your thoughts in this thread and have a good evening.

You can't stay on topic or on point to save you, can you?

When I kill something, it's to protect me and mine, and/or to eat it. Irrelevant to the conversation, as is every other rabbit hole you're trying to go down.

You should go back to rarely posting; an intelligent and coherent discussion - on point and on topic - is clearly beyond your capabilities.

OH PUH-LEAZE!

lulz

Are you seriously ... no, wait, errrrr, no you di'int just try to quote Old Testament to prove your claim of "might does not make right" ... did you?

Do I really need to tell you the story of the exodus?

Oh my gosh ... I wish I still smoked grass like I did back in the 70s. I'd go hit a bowl right now and have a blast with this thread.

Where did the OP run off to anyways?

Wonky? this from the self proclaimed 'great debater' who's debating style is projectionism and logical fallacy.

Kent

So, your response is to make fun of the Biblical stories of the weak overcoming the strong, and claim that any citing such things as evidence of might not making right are on drugs?

That's quite "christian" of you.

Please... carry on.

Move to Oregon, Washington, or Colorado. Better yet, spend some time in prayer then stop and listen real hard.

Ol Antelope is a believer in the making, or at least I hope so. I give him a hard time, although I shouldn't. He just can't see the forest for the trees.

The Holy Spirit is working through him... and he's as judgmental as a bible thumper...

Kent

Wow, what an adult way to begin your post. Regardless, I'll provide you an answer.

If you compare the Encephalization Quotient between the above mentioned species, humans by far, have the highest.

Human: 7.44
Dolphin: 5.31
whales: 1.76.

So yes, by that measure, we are intellectually superior. In addition, we are better able to use that intellect since we have opposable thumbs.
Since ethics, morality, and spirituality are derived from out intellect, it's likely we are superior in these area's as well.

Come on Wilkes. Give us a good logical argument.

I would hope you have one in there someplace.

I'm staying on topic ... but in the process I'm easily slapping you out of your anti-Christian atheist pigeon hole.

Your answer just proved my point.

Your disrespect of the life you take ... it proves my point and illustrates the difference between believers, of all kinds, and you atheists.

You have no respect for life ... yet you claim yourself to be morally and ethically superior, "more honest" if you will. That is the special hypocrisy of you atheists.

Yet we believers ... believers in whatever and for whatever reason, we believe, we have faith, that inside every body, every temple, dwells a soul. Christians and Buddhists in particular - we believe even animals have souls.

The belief has evolved over the years but it exists, and for good reason.

Now, if you are so shallow as to believe yourself so intellectually superior, (which you obviously are not), as to have my very simple analogies fly over your head ... that's fine. I get it - I see it all the time in you atheists. I stated it from the very get-go. But do yourself a favor, don't try to baffle me with your "stay on topic" bravo sierra.

You kill your prey without honor of any sort. You do not even respect the life you are taking, the light your are extinguishing, which allows you to extend the life of you and yours.

Now, understand the Etymology of the word "honesty" ... the genesis of this thread. It's early 14th century French meaning, to have honor, to be an honorable person.

Yet you atheists cannot even honor a life? It is meaningless to you on all levels. We have no souls according to you people and you are never even willing to enter into the possibilities that something beyond us, something higher than us, exists ... because it is beyond your capabilities.

My point is proven.

Now, if you would really like to have an honest discussion about honor and integrity and religion ... let me know. We'll start over without your preconceived notions that Christians, or any religious order for that matter, is comprised of dishonest followers based purely upon their belief systems that there is a higher power or that this prophet or that existed or did not exist.

Or you may continue to play your atheist word games and I'll simply ignore you because there is one rule that my grandpappy taught me long ago ... "Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him. —Proverbs 26:4"

And again I'll state, I am not a fan of organized religion ... but since my wife and children, my sisters and brothers, my parents and ancestors are - I am a fan of defending their honor.

MojoHand;
Thanks to both you and Antelope Sniper for the thoughtful replies, I appreciate the tone and the effort put into them. Well done gentlemen. I appreciate the kinds words too and will endeavor to deserve them in future posts.

As you both might or may not know about me, I was/am the recipient of an unexplained happening such as I eluded to.

Without rehashing the entire episode it was catastrophic enough that my family was called in to watch me die as the best medical minds there apparently felt I had less than favorable odds.

Anyway the over riding emotion for me was a profound sense of indebtedness. I felt that if whatever it was through unexplained means allowed me to continue on - then I was supposed to do something to deserve that.

That feeling was made even keener a few years later when my best friend died in a car crash of injuries that were less severe than mine.

After much soul searching and wandering down wrong paths - for me - I turned to what I'll freely admit I believe is the right one - again for me.

Please note that I believe this faith in a supreme being makes me no better or worse than any other human here on this earth. Frankly I'm puzzled at folks who believe that way - but again it is just as much their right to believe that I suppose as it is mine to respectfully disagree.

Lastly, the faith placed may indeed lead to nothing beyond what I know on this mortal coil - but the benefit for me here and now is that it gives me a ration of daily peace which I didn't have previously.

I apologize to you both that this is a rather incoherent rambling when I read it back - but I felt your replies to me deserved a response and have attempted to articulate one.

Thanks again, all the best to you both and good luck on your hunts this fall.

Dwayne

PS;
There are more quail here than we've seen in years and the mulies are both getting their winter coats and starting to rub their velvet already - about 10-12 days early for here.

Check your PM in box.

Great post my friend, as usual.

You're a laughable fool.

"Anti-christian atheist"? You couldn't be further off base.

You remain clueless and off point, off base, and off topic, as every post you've made proves.

Never claimed myself intellectually superior, and never said I didn't honor whatever I killed (only stated why I killed), but none of that has anything to do with this thread or any question or subject brought up at all.

You asked for examples of when might does not make right; I provided them. You ridiculed the same, even if they are Christian at base and the base of Christianity. Might making right, or not, still has no bearing on honesty. None of that has any merit at all on whether Christians are more or less honest than non-Christians (which I've stated time and again comes down to the person, not the faith).

You have yet to stay on point or on topic, if only obviously.

Come back when you can comprehend anything logical. We won't hold our collective breath.

Can't you look around and see what has been created? Do you think that all of this is coincidence? Isn't the miracle of life enough to believe in a higher power? Step out on faith and can the logic for a while. This could be compelling for you. I hope you do, and if so, I hope it works.

Now we're talking!

Well done.

So that means no souls exist ... they are a product of our superior imaginations?

SC,

Christians believe animals have souls? Can ya reference that position?

Gracias

If you have convincing evidence for the existence of souls, please present it.

Thank you ... and I believe you. But the time is probably coming when we are no longer going to be able to turn the other cheek ... we're under attack and we're eventually going to have to fight back on some level.

Whether or not might makes right ... I dunno. I tend to believe it's not about that - it's about those with the most conviction and those with the most determination .... they win and they write history.

That's all that will matter 1000s of years from now provided the Great Jumpmaster in the Sky doesn't send a big rock down from the heavens thus hitting the reset button and starting all over again.

Every day I read a scripture. And every day I read the science journals. You're a turn the other cheek kinda guy. I'm more old testament, paratrooper type whose patron Saint is the Arch Angel Michael ... fire and brimstone.

Others are bible thumpers for other reasons - I pass no judgment on anyone but I do despise the atheists who paint broad strokes with wide brushes against Christianity while hiding behind the anonymity of the Internet and while shivering in their panties afraid to attack, with equal vigor, those of another religion who's radical beliefs would see us all beheaded for the sake of their god.

So yes, I do believe that there are times when might makes right. I come from a family of men who fought to protect certain rights ... including the one to worship freely, to exist without the heavy hand of organized religion or government tyranny bearing down upon us. It is a lineage that goes way back in my family ... yet today, these days, I feel almost powerless to even slow down the steady assault on our freedoms, and the freedoms of others, by those who either claim we should turn the other cheek and those who claim we have no moral or ethical basis to fight-back because of so-called past transgressions committed by whomever, whenever, who I could give a fat baby's butt about.

So forgive me if I offended you ... but I am glad you finally stated your case plainly, even if I disagree with you on some levels.

Others ran away.

This thread was destined to be contentious from its onset and I suspect the OP knew as much going-in ... but he had nothing to lose. He is, after all, hiding behind the anonymity of the Internet while attempting to spread the gospel his own negative anti-Christian religion.

It is why this country is in decline this very moment.

Wilkes,

I love the outdoors and all it has to offer. However, when I enjoy the outdoors, or examine the night sky through a spotting scope, EVERYTHING I see can be explained by natural means without the need to invoke a creator. In general, this argument, depending on how it is made, falls under one of two fallacies, either the Argument from Ignorance, or the Argument from personal Incredulity.

Our world is amazing, wonderful and complex, but we can explain it all without invoking a creator.

BTW, thank-you for stepping up and putting forth an argument. It's a real improvement over your previous posts.

Let me help you out you fum dugger!!!! You ain't never been fugged over by a Christian and if you listen real close I'll splain it to you.

If a fuggin duck says its a Chicken its not really a Chicken!!! It's a fuggin duck comprenda.

The definition of the word Christian means to be Christ like. If someone ain't Christ like there not a fuggin Christian. If I tell you I'm a fuggin Ford truck then fugg ya over are ya stupid enouph to tell everyone ya know that you got fugged over by a Ford truck. No.....you'd say....that stupid fugger shod thinks he's a Ford truck but he's not. He's just an asshollle that fugged me over.


I hope this has been a learned conversation friendo.


Shod

Where are you quoting the spirit and breathe text from? How can it be the same when you are stating there is a difference?

TIA

"Our world is amazing, wonderful and complex, but we can explain it all without invoking a creator."

A very bold assertion, indeed. Just saying.

When you can create or destroy matter or energy, get back to me.

We are already able to destroy matter and convert it into energy. We do it with nuclear power plants, and with atomic and nuclear weapons.

We are also able to smash protons into subatomic particles that quickly decay in particle accelerators.

So on this question, you are about 70 years behind the times.

Please read my earlier post in the Jesus Picture thread regarding the True Scotsman Fallacy. It seems to be a Christian favorite.

Beat me!

OT,

You are of course correct. Some have posted in response to this but were clearly taking their own view of your statements.

Man cannot "create" the matter or the energy. He can only take what is there ALREADY and bust it or burn or otherwise change it.

Maybe we'll see a response from the goofball that wrote a book titled "The Universe from Nothing" or something like that. Any cockamamie theory is superior to the idea of a Creator. It seems natural that man tries to see himself without being held accountable to a Creator.

btw, I am of the notion that "animals" do have souls but they do not have eternal souls like man.

TF

Nope, not true at all.

TF

I have faith ... that's all I need.

If you have convincing evidence that we do not have souls ... please present it.

In the meantime I'll do my best to convey my personal experiences where souls are concerned - with regard to human death and life.

This is just one example of many I have witnessed during the course of my life which, has seen many deaths. Yet this one is most personal.

As a teenager I watched my grandfather die of oat cell lung cancer. It was a horrible death in which, over the course of about a month, he slowly suffocated to death.

On the night he died in his home on our farm I watched him go through his death throes ... using all the hand gestures he had used during my childhood to tell stories of his life, he relived his life during those final minutes before he gave his last breath.

He was a hunter, an ex Calvary man, a Texan, who lived through the great depression and WW II and ... he had these bird dogs, rip raff pointers, that he loved. And they loved him.

When he became ill so quickly, my mother and father gave the dogs to a nearby neighbor, and farmer, a close friend of my grandfather's, who wanted to take care of the dogs and hunt them as they were meant to do. He lived about two miles from us as the crow flies or, as we used to say back then, "on the little farm beyond the north creek."

When my grandfather gave his last breath, in the middle of the night surrounded by his family and far sooner than any of us thought it might happen .... the phone rang. It was our farmer neighbor. Because, at that very instant, those eight dogs had started howling and would not stop ... to which the farmer felt it meant something, as if something had passed by, and it caused him to get out of bed and dial our party line.

But it doesn't end there.

Some years later, after I had served, as all the men in my family have done, I found myself doing contract work in Central America. Eagle Aviation here in Columbia, SC had made it's bones as Air American during the Vietnam war, and now it was doing the same under Reagan in Central America in the late 80s and I had returned from my time in service with a particular skill set which made me an attractive hire to interests involved in Central America at the time.

During one of our later, for lack of a better terms, missions ... my unit found itself stranded in a rather precarious situation where our C-123 failed to show for extraction. We later found out that it had been shot down and one of the mechanics, a guy by the name of Gene Hasenfus, had been captured ... but that's another story.

So anyways, here we are left to E & E back to Ilopango on our own devices ... and this is where the story continues.

It was a long hike. Details not important but everyone in that part of the world was looking for us for obvious reasons - both sides. During the course of the hump I was basically surrounded, in a jungle which I'll leave to your imagination, by the bad guys. I was tired, hungry, sick from drinking bad water and I was at my wit's end.

I gave up and in a last gasp to evade capture I lay down in a gully full of creepy crawly things that you cannot imagine, covered myself in jungle gunk and waited to be stepped-on at which time I had resigned myself to death because my intention was to come up guns-a-blaring. I had already said my prayers and asked that my Mother not suffer in her grief.

I could hear the bad guys talking and shouting at one another, they knew they were close. I figured one of them had probably seen me because they came in with intent from both ridges - it was only a matter of them closing their ranks upon me.

But a peacefulness and calm took over which I cannot explain and I heard footsteps coming towards me on the mushy jungle floor.

As I looked up through my quilt of cover I saw my grandfather standing there just above me to my left ... looking down upon me with his fingers to his lips as if shushing me. He was much younger than I had ever known him to be personally ... although few pictures existed of his younger days, I suspected he was young as if pre-war, maybe in his twenties, still strong, before the glasses and dentures, his hair still blonde and his eyes still twinkling blue and he was healthy and confident.

I lay there amazed, afraid to even twitch thinking I was already dead and he was there to take me somewhere ... wherever he had been since his death.

I'll never forget his teeth. He had lost his teeth during WWII before my birth ... but there he was with this smile full of teeth.

Then he moves off not silently, but with physical sounds and the next thing I know gunfire erupts and I hear all the bad guys moving south from my position. I laid there for a moment wondering what I had just witnessed before uncovering myself and hauling tail north ...

But it doesn't end there.

Back in South Carolina, we think around the same time, my mother was awoken by a feeling that her father had passed through the room. She had been having bad feelings for days that something had happened to me. I was estranged from the family at the time and they had absolutely no idea where I was or what I was doing - all they knew was that I had returned to the states from Italy and disappeared.

She was asleep on the top of her bed - depressed at the feelings she was experiencing that I was in great danger. Then, she suddenly felt like everything was going to be okay, as if she knew I was being watched-over by her Dad.

Not knowing what to do she got in her car and first drove to our church, I was raised devout Lutheran, and she prayed with our pastor, an old German fellow who we all loved and respected. He comforted her to some degree but it wasn't enough. So she had heard of this physic woman in Columbia back then ... I can't remember the gal's name but she was one of those spooky women who claimed to have the ability to talk to whomever ... I dunno. This part I cannot explain.

She drove from our farm to Columbia and visited this woman who took her money, then took something of mine which I shall not mention, and proceeded to tell my mother that I was indeed in danger, but her father had interceded (which my mother had never mentioned her feelings that her father had passed by) ... and that I was on a river, on my way home, and I was alive and well.

I finally made it home 47 days later.

I had been there for several days before my sister told me the story of what my mother had been through ... and I approached my mother to tell me her version of her experience, which she did.

And here is the rest of the story.

I listened to Mom ... then I told her what happened and about my experience - and she cried. And oh, about that river? It was true. I had been picked-up just east of Las Lomas and boated up a river, for two days, to a road where I was then trucked/snuke near Somoto and crossed over into Honduras on my way back to Ilopango.

That's my story.

Am I being honest or am I full of bravo sierra?

You decide.

In the meantime, I believe in souls. There is way more out there than human being has yet to come close to understanding. Times were simpler millennials ago. We've let modern science and the many mitigating parties disrupt our natural ability to accept the possibilities that abound around us. Some call it an aura, others faith .... whatever it is, it exists for me and that's all that matters in my little sphere.

Take it for what it is worth.

I've paused many times before hitting the submit button ... perhaps this will do someone some good.

Good night.

Been watching this.By now everyone has figured out the only difference in everyone is what they choose to believe in.Everyone has their proof.Hell, even chicken little had his proof.After all a piece of the sky hit him in the head.Folks that think we come from spacemen have their proof.There is no proof of anything.We choose to believe thats all.Nobody has better proof than anyone else.All men live by what they believe to be,not by what they know.To claim anything else is to be a fool.

What the hell did I walk into here? A religion thread during a full moon. Next time I'll know better....likely not.
The original OP's question...my answer is a person decides to be honest I think because he respects those he is being honest to, regardless of religion or no religion. But that kinda sets me up poorly, because it seems to me women are less likely to be honest with others, than men. Women, when angry, envious, intimidated, tend to be sarcastic, which is passive aggressive anger, rather than be up front. Which is really crazy, because, IMO I'd think folks would treat others the way they want to be treated; so if they want honesty from others, they would be honest. So then does that mean us women really don't want others to be honest with us?

Oh heck, its a full moon, I don't know.

Sorry about that.

But its quite possible your stuck in the same judgmental mode that you attribute to the Christians you sought to apply the "dishonest" label to.

I don't think they are all like Mother Teresa, or even close.

If it has to do with me inferring your post was a trolling work, I think it was.

But I guess if you were trolling for serious answers, you got a lot of stuff to wade through.


It can be easy, but often times its not.


Cut me some slack if I come across a little rough.








Pray to God while not under duress.

most so called christians need that crutch to lean on. i do not.they actually think they can hold that over your head and be better then you.and yes,they think they are better then you.its a power struggle just like everything else in life.

just don't push it on me.

I'd rather leave the question of the true existence of a deity open,neither proved nor disproved. I am not interested in absolute answers. Some matters are best left to faith.

On the issue of "honesty", you are as likely to be screwed over by an atheist as a Christian,and more likely by members of certain sects whose religion considers it an obligation to lie to infidels.

Honesty is probably a Christian value of human conduct,along with others that we hold as self evident in our society,and TRY to practice but no one, regardless of belief or religion,can follow scrupulously.Because we are humans. But this does not mean that we can't have "standards" of conduct.And religion and faith have provided those "standards",whether you are an atheist or true believer.We see them everywhere in our legal system.

I do know one thing.....in the political context,you better believe in something. Because if you don't,you open the door to questions such as where your rights come from;whether you are born with them, or whether they are granted by men through government.And if so, they can be taken away by those men or governments.

This is the underpinning of our Constitutional system. Attack religion,abandon it altogether,and the rest crumbles. Watch out what you do.

I will scratch you off my list of people to tell about Jesus.

Hopefully, it's this type of post that drives folks AWAY from atheism.

Driving others away? Just....WOW????

Really?

I choose not to express myself in what you think is positive light.

Half the questions you ask me are along the whole "Are you still beating your wife?" line of thought.



So you are saying that a person only has faith if they were brainwashed, looking for a "feel good", taking the words of another person without thinking about it, or hinging it on the Bible without thinking. And those are your words, paraphrased, but that's what you meant.

I am not compelled to play your game, and my payment for this is you saying I have not thought about my position or am not casting myself in a positive light.

You toss it around like you got a logic filled superior upper hand, and there is no way I am going to convince you otherwise.

I know this.

For the record, none of those 4 apply to me. The only one that could come close is the "feel good", but to be honest, I'd feel a lot better, even aside from the whole forgiveness issue, if I knew things would just be dead when they are dead. I've been an instrument of evil far too many times, but that's the way it is.

And for all intensive purposes to folks who don't believe, life sucks, by any definition man uses to gauge happiness. Frankly, I think it sucks quite often, but I'm uplifted enough from different things to know what I know to be Truth is right.

It's not my world, and it certainly isn't the "Jesus Lite" world of flowers and butterflies that all the atheist cite that the lack thereof is proof it isn't true to begin with.

As far as the Bible goes, I have to reconcile that with my faith. See, I didn't really read it before I got on board the train. And I didn't have a pastor, or anyone aside from a few experiences when I was a kid to even address it.

In fact, most of my exposure to Christianity was hanging around with all the other atheists for most of my life.. And I was the prime proponent of the "suffering disproves God" argument.

You could reference my conversion to my wife, of course, but then again, I never attended church with her for the first 6+ years we were married, choosing to stay home and watch TV and such.

She had little to do with my change, but was happy to see it, I bet.

And you guys can cite my general snarky disposition as an indicator of my "bad Christian example" but you certainly have read the Bible, probably more analytical than me, tell me Jesus wasn't sarcastic.

I'm not saying I'm as good as that, but I'm trying.

I will not be the one to convince you folks one way or the other, and if I do, it will be an accident (deus ex machina), so don't feel like you will gain much by arguing with me, unless you need to convince yourselves more.

In the grand scheme of things spreading the Gospel means telling folks about Jesus. You, AS, and probably Mojo already have that info, so technically, there's not much need to discuss it further on my end.

Especially if the premise is to deduce if Christians are less honest than Athiests, or whether or not they still beat their wives...





BTW, can I get the "wonky" statement on a T-shirt? Round these parts, most folks use the term to describe oral hygiene. I think its good to see it used proper-like.

Mojo, how have I "driven others away?" That is contrary to my life's intention and I don't see that I've done it here. I haven't read all of this thread carefully but I think you are perceiving something that's not there.

It seems to me that in an agitated way you are not seeking answers here but rather put up the OP for the controversy that it would instigate.

However, if I am wrong please explain that to me, here or in a PM. Or [/b] ask [b] a question.

Edit: and can you elucidate on "Just....WOW?"

"Can you think of an evil action that can only be committed by a religious person?"

Being man-made, "religion" in and of itself,is no defining line between humans as far as moral behavior.

Atheism is just as valid a "religion" as modern Christianity.[have you ever noticed that the spellcheck function capitalizes both words?]

Belief in a Supernatural Force commonly referred to as "God" is a function of man's Spirit, so "spirituality" is the proper dividing line between humans.

So... to answer your question.... Doing evil to a fellow human in the name of some "god" can only be done by one who professes a belief in that god.

Of course.. if a man uses "Science" to justify his non-belief, then for practical purposes he has made "Science" his God, because it quells his natural spiritual yearning.

He can then slaughter babies in the name of HIS god.

So, I reckon the answer to your question is..."NO".

Sweet Jesus, you are obtuse.
You started with what animals know Dr. Dolittle. No bait taken, I'll wait to prove about some magical guy living in the clouds knowing everything you do and realizing that you might be the only one more stupid than Eyeball.

Ironic and logical fallacy.



Projectionism.

Which is only a difference of opinion.

Kent

O K..... with regard to your clarified question:

I claim that a man who keeps his mind open to a "self revealing supernatural power" is more intellectually honest than a man who closes his mind to the possibility of such a supernatural power.

"God in the Dock" by C.S. Lewis is the best essay on this subject that I've found.

Just as a man who keeps his mind open to "No supernatural power existing' is more intellectually honest than a man who closes his mind to the possibility that God doesn't exist?

You make people who are going to hell have nightmares about going to hell.

Thanks for your story. I grew up hearing such tales told with the same conviction, so when I've been the recipient of such "visions" as yours, I was not quick to try and explain them away.

Those "Riff-Raff Pointers", as I knew them, were crosses between English Pointers and English Setters.

When you mate two dogs that each point birds, you are almost certain to get pups that will point birds.

But a couple of human Believers are apt to beget a child that declares from the outset that there ain't a damned thing in the Universe superior to his own intellect.

Thanks for probably the best post ive ever read, however some here would ask why you didnt get a picture of your young grandad and others can explain your experience away due to stress, fear or fever. You know, if it didnt happen to them ....

You evidently skipped over the "self revealing..... " aspect of my description of a supernatural power.

Look at it this way..... At one point in time I was ignorant of the existence of a guy named Scott.

Then, I became pretty sure a guy named Scott existed because I read his posts on this forum.

Then he showed up to go hunting, and I became CONVINCED of his existence.

I can stay open to Scott revealing more about himself, good and bad, but to remain open minded on the question of Scott's existence would be beyond stupidity.

BTW.... God's revelation to me was even more convincing than yours.

Just an observation here. Christians and Navy Seals have a lot in common, in that everybody that claims to be one, ain't. miles

X......wrong!

Everyone is SOOOO lucky and appreciative of your self-proclaimed, indisputable observations.

I thought so too. Glad that I am getting the recognition that I deserve. miles

Most of us have recognized your brilliance for years...... even when you are just stating an obvious truth.

How so, if I may ask?

They are more accurate than yours because the proof can be seen

It seems to me that the human mind is constructed in such a way that we can never accept a negative proposition with the same degree of certainty we accord a positive affirmation.

God either IS....... or He is NOT.

Once a man has become CONVINCED that He IS, in a Supernatural method of conviction, the question is forever settled in his mind.

It is impossible for the Atheist to hold his unbelief with the same conviction.

I think that explains in part why they continually attempt to engage in debates with believers.

It ain't US they are arguing with.

It's either themselves... or SOMEONE else.

All you have to do is read and be honest with yourself.

Great answer, yup.

Perhaps I am not exposing the appropriate buttons to push.

BWahahahahha. Since when is converting one thing to another destroying it? You can't. But an ok try, I guess. While we are at it, why don't you tell us how to change the rules of nature, ya know like gravity. And further, where did they come from?

Your hubris is complete, grasshopper. ;-{>8

OP: "Are Atheists more honest than Christians?"
Having thought about that question (also having read many of the responding posts, and thought about a few) I have just about decided that the question is not answerable as posed (at least, not by me). The scope of the inquiry leads to some questions:

Which kinds of Atheists vs. which kinds of Christians?

From whence comes the definition of "honesty" to be used in the assessment - some human definition of honesty, or some definition provided by God in the Holy Bible? Or?

What criteria are being used to determine "more" honest?

(Just for openers.)

bottom line is that conditions remain as they always were. that is: we don't know from whence we came, where we are, and least of all where we are headed next. I think the Great Mystery has taken all of our mindsets into consideration as the game moves forward.

or as some Buddhists are fond of saying: just keep paddling or swimming. the far shore is out there.

You are the first person I can remember in years who recognized the term riff raff pointers. Best bird dogs ever - and they hunted in male/female pairs with incredible work ethic and strategy.

Last paragraph ... well stated. Very well stated. Nice analogy.




That is probably one of the more eloquently expressed ways of saying we're not going to ever change their minds, that I have ever read.

With that, ironically, the pushed verse from my Daily Bible app this morning was from 2 Timothy 2:2 "and what you have heard from me in the presence of many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also."

Putin and Hillary are great examples of living by Atheist values.

... you're right, and I've heard it all over the years - although I rarely share the story.

Guys from my old unit, when we have our reunions, they always ask me to retell it. Others have their own stories to tell - many of us have experienced similar things.

It's a shame really, but the millennials are being taught to be disbelievers of all things spiritual. Yet humans have existed as spiritual beings for millennia. It all seems against nature IMHO ... and it will backfire on us - once we disengage ourselves, as a species, from our precarious connection to this world.

... and Obama for that matter.

As a matter of fact that's another irony we are witnessing these days from the anti-religious religion. The atheists' playbook, including Obama and Hillary, is Saul Alinsky's Rules for Radicals.

Some people are aware that Obama refers to it as his bible, and that Hillary was close personal friends with Alinsky to the point where many claim she had an affair with him as evidenced by her letters to him as his disciple.

BUT, even fewer are aware of the preface to Alinsky's book and the dedication to Lucifer, as follows:

There you go again, thinking it's all about you.

if memory serves, Jesus was a dissident if not totally a revolutionary.

disrupting the status quo will cause much dissonance.

that's what this country and the world is facing now.

technology serves to unbalance the status quo.

looking at a global picture of the Urth reveals no boundary lines whatsoever.

but what could that possibly mean?

Evidently, and so was Pauls Id say.

Hard ground, etc, I'd say.

I do my best to never push, shove, shout or threaten my faith on anyone. If anyone here feels I have then I honestly and sincerely apologise.

However, when someone posts a statement on Christianity I will respond with my beliefs. If I were to sit around a campfire enjoying the company of those here posting on this thread of the lack of belief in God I would not be the one to bring the subject up for conversation but that does not mean I do not have concern for them.

To use an example, I consider Antelope_Sniper a friend. We do not think the same on this subject so unless he asks I don't generally respond with an answer. Now that in no way means I do not think he is missing the boat so to speak and I do feel real concern for him because in my mind I believe in a afterlife and if I am right and he is wrong the consequences I would never wish on him. On the other hand, if he is right and I am just living a life in an unfounded faith the consequences will amount to nothing.

As I stated above in an earlier reply I chose to follow Christ. No one made me do it, I did it because my life sucked big time and I had no inner peace. I chose to try something different and from almost that moment on my life has been much better. No, the hurts and pains did not go away, neither did the hard times, but I felt much better equipped to handle those hard times. As Peter said to the lame man (Acts 3:6) silver and gold have I none, but such as I have give I thee —. I did not become rich in the things of the world. The Ruger 45 LC I have wanted since 1973 did not magically appear under my pillow. My bank did not call telling me I had to transfer some money because I had more in my accounts than the FDIC insurance covered nor did Publishers Clearing House knock on my door. But in spite of all than a peace and contentment have enabled me to persevere. Through the tough times, injuries aches, pains, low income and for the four and a half years of no income we have never gone without a roof over our heads and enough food on out table to share with those who may not. Today I suffer from daily bouts of dizzy spells bad enough that if I don't sit down or better yet lay down I would fall down. I have back pain the doctors can do nothing about. At 66 years old I have the joint pains than most my age know all to well. But with all that my life is pretty darned good. I am at peace and I am content. I choose to thank God for that.