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In the end, both atheists and Christians have the same evidence for God/gods...none. The Christian chooses to believe anyway and tries to convince you it's fact. The atheists chooses no belief and doesn't try to convince you of anything.
Who's more honest?"
I think the question was asked and answered by the OP.
First he makes an emphatic claim: ...both atheists and Christians have the same evidence for God/gods...none.
Then, after having made an emphatic/authoratative claim he says: "The atheists chooses no belief...here's the kicker...doesn't try to convince you of anything.
This he says after he makes the authoratative claim. He flatters himself in saying that he is not trying to convice you of anything. However, this can not be an honest statement because of his atheist dogma that preceeded it. Atheist does not require evidence. A lack of evidence for a god or gods is sufficient not to accept the proposition. On the other hand Anti-theist, those who assert "there are no gods", do have a burden of proof, and need to present it to support their positive proposition. The original poster has concluded...for everyone...that there is no evidence for God/gods. That is a positive position.
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The only "force" I'm using is the force of reason.
Here is something to reason on........ It would seem that any Man who is wise would intelligently reason that there is a fair amount of evidence pointing to a possibility of a God. A wise and Just God would provide sufficient evidence to at least warrant investigation. A wise and Just God would also provide validation apon investigation. The possibility of our oweing our existence to a creator in light of a fair amount of evidence would at least seem to warrant investigating just out of the possibility that a good man may be entitled to show gratitude for ones life. It would also seem fittingly Just that if one is not inclined to seek the possibility of gratitude that may be owed in light of the fact there is so much evidence!!!! Perhaps God could rightously and justly not include such ones in a Kingdom to which they have shown no interest. Shod Do you really believe I haven't investigated this? We have evidence of Ceremonial Burial 100k years ago, organized religions 40k years ago, and priesthoods since at least the beginning of towns and cities 10k years ago. uif So if there is a singular god, he's had 40,000 years to get out his unified message, and bring all of humanity under his loving umbrella. If there was one god, and he had all that time, we would expect he could at least transmit his unified message to the whole of humanity. But we don't see that. Instead we see what we would expect if religion is man made, i.e. Many regional religions, and great fragmentation and many different sects among the various religions. There's no unity, no unified message, but many local religions, many of which claim their practitioners are a chose people with special rights to kill, rape, murder, and enslave all who hold beliefs different them their own. This is what we would expect from man made, not god made religions. [/quote] I'll play athiest. I don't accept your evidence. Therefore you have none.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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The only "force" I'm using is the force of reason.
Here is something to reason on........ It would seem that any Man who is wise would intelligently reason that there is a fair amount of evidence pointing to a possibility of a God. A wise and Just God would provide sufficient evidence to at least warrant investigation. A wise and Just God would also provide validation apon investigation. The possibility of our oweing our existence to a creator in light of a fair amount of evidence would at least seem to warrant investigating just out of the possibility that a good man may be entitled to show gratitude for ones life. It would also seem fittingly Just that if one is not inclined to seek the possibility of gratitude that may be owed in light of the fact there is so much evidence!!!! Perhaps God could rightously and justly not include such ones in a Kingdom to which they have shown no interest. Shod Do you really believe I haven't investigated this? We have evidence of Ceremonial Burial 100k years ago, organized religions 40k years ago, and priesthoods since at least the beginning of towns and cities 10k years ago. uif So if there is a singular god, he's had 40,000 years to get out his unified message, and bring all of humanity under his loving umbrella. If there was one god, and he had all that time, we would expect he could at least transmit his unified message to the whole of humanity. But we don't see that. Instead we see what we would expect if religion is man made, i.e. Many regional religions, and great fragmentation and many different sects among the various religions. There's no unity, no unified message, but many local religions, many of which claim their practitioners are a chose people with special rights to kill, rape, murder, and enslave all who hold beliefs different them their own. This is what we would expect from man made, not god made religions. I'll play athiest. I don't accept your evidence. Therefore you have none.[/quote] You have the burden of proof, and no, I will not take it from you.
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
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I will go for the null hypothesis. There is not an atheist.
NRA Member - Life, Benefactor, Patron
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The only "force" I'm using is the force of reason.
Here is something to reason on........ It would seem that any Man who is wise would intelligently reason that there is a fair amount of evidence pointing to a possibility of a God. A wise and Just God would provide sufficient evidence to at least warrant investigation. A wise and Just God would also provide validation apon investigation. The possibility of our oweing our existence to a creator in light of a fair amount of evidence would at least seem to warrant investigating just out of the possibility that a good man may be entitled to show gratitude for ones life. It would also seem fittingly Just that if one is not inclined to seek the possibility of gratitude that may be owed in light of the fact there is so much evidence!!!! Perhaps God could rightously and justly not include such ones in a Kingdom to which they have shown no interest. Shod Do you really believe I haven't investigated this? We have evidence of Ceremonial Burial 100k years ago, organized religions 40k years ago, and priesthoods since at least the beginning of towns and cities 10k years ago. uif So if there is a singular god, he's had 40,000 years to get out his unified message, and bring all of humanity under his loving umbrella. If there was one god, and he had all that time, we would expect he could at least transmit his unified message to the whole of humanity. But we don't see that. Instead we see what we would expect if religion is man made, i.e. Many regional religions, and great fragmentation and many different sects among the various religions. There's no unity, no unified message, but many local religions, many of which claim their practitioners are a chose people with special rights to kill, rape, murder, and enslave all who hold beliefs different them their own. This is what we would expect from man made, not god made religions. I'll play athiest. I don't accept your evidence. Therefore you have none. You have the burden of proof, and no, I will not take it from you. [/quote] I'll take the OPs position; [I choose not to believe] and [won't] try to convince you of anything.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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I'll take the OPs position;
[I choose not to believe] and [won't] try to convince you of anything.
I give you credit for being honest enough to admit it was a choice, and not the result of an investigation of the evidence.
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
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Campfire 'Bwana
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13 When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do people say the Son of Man is?”
14 They replied, “Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”
15 “But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?”
16 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”
17 Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven. 18 And I tell you that you are Peter,[a] and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades[b] will not overcome it.
Now, what's interesting is Jesus saying the only way Peter knows who he is can be by the Father having opened his eyes.
It takes that before anyone can kmow Jesus is the son.
Nothing can be said or shown by anyone to prove the truth.
For a person to learn it, one must ask God to come in his heart. Many are too afraid to do that, for fear of the fun they may have to give up.
The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time by the blood of patriots and tyrants.
If being stupid allows me to believe in Him, I'd wish to be a retard. Eisenhower and G Washington should be good company.
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Argument aside, snipey, you are a true zealot. Sad, IMO.
You must get a kick out of telling small children there is no Santa Claus.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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You must get a kick out of telling small children there is no Santa Claus. I do no such thing. Once again, your presuppositions are incorrect.
Last edited by antelope_sniper; 08/29/15.
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
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What if on judgement day you learn the correct answer was "Mormons", or Catholics, and not your sect? Many people believe, and many people 'know' from their own experiences, that...regardless of anything else...one will have a better life by following the teachings of Jesus. Some people have posted on this board...and these are people that have lived a long time and have had much life experience...that their walk with Jesus was the easiest life they've ever known. Many people want their life to be better...and many people want to be better at life. They see it as a win-win situation. That's nice. But it does not address the question of Truth. It specifically addressed the question you asked above, the "what if" question.
Every day on this side of the ground is a win.
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18 And I tell you that you are Peter,[a] and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades[b] will not overcome it.
In this instance, 'rock' means truth. Another truth is that his church, believers (who prove their belief by doing as He says) wil not be overcome by the gates of hell. No matter the numbers of their detractors or murderers, they will continue in the faith and everlasting life. There is elswhere a verse explaining some who had false belief will fail and leave the church.
The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time by the blood of patriots and tyrants.
If being stupid allows me to believe in Him, I'd wish to be a retard. Eisenhower and G Washington should be good company.
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. 8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord
This shows believers must obey God
The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time by the blood of patriots and tyrants.
If being stupid allows me to believe in Him, I'd wish to be a retard. Eisenhower and G Washington should be good company.
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All it shows is that someone wrote that down a long time ago. Nothing more.
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Mark 16:15-16English Standard Version (ESV)
15 And he said to them, “Go into all the world and proclaim the gospel to the whole creation. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned
This shows why believers tell others about the word. It is a command from God that we do so. It is part of obeying Him.
The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time by the blood of patriots and tyrants.
If being stupid allows me to believe in Him, I'd wish to be a retard. Eisenhower and G Washington should be good company.
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All it shows is that someone wrote that down a long time ago. Nothing more. It shows you havent wanted everlasting life enough to ask for it. But Lotts wife looked back and was turned into a pillar of salt, salty. How much you figure those Shephards got paid to scratch this stuff on rocks and haul them around in an effort to save your worthless, sorry ass, salty? They just threw the story of Jesus together as a sneaky trick to make you worry. Well, you were too smart for them.
Last edited by eyeball; 08/29/15.
The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time by the blood of patriots and tyrants.
If being stupid allows me to believe in Him, I'd wish to be a retard. Eisenhower and G Washington should be good company.
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How much you figure those Shephards got paid to scratch this stuff on rocks and haul them around in an effort to save your worthless, sorry ass, salty? They were only doing it for themselves, the same way you use it to make yourself feel superior when it's obvious it's a sham.
One shot, one kill........ It saves a lot of ammo!
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But we don't see that. Instead we see what we would expect if religion is man made, i.e. Many regional religions, and great fragmentation and many different sects among the various religions. There's no unity, no unified message, but many local religions, many of which claim their practitioners are a chose people with special rights to kill, rape, murder, and enslave all who hold beliefs different them their own. This is what we would expect from man made, not god made religions.
Another observation: 19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. 20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: 21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
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What amazed me is there is over 30,000 Christian sects, but you think you know the One True Christianity.
A Christian is a Christian when they except Christ as their personal Saviour. Church as in today’s meaning, a sect or a denomination, does not make or break a Christian. There are even Christians who do not follow or belong to any sect or denomination, I am one of them. Going to a church does not make one a Christian, furthermore most if not all churches have many members Christ may not recognise and His. Not going to a church does not mean you are not a Christian. I do not believe there is one true sect or a denomination. I think there are different sects or a denominations because different people feel called or drawn to different styles of worship. I would attend no church who preached their way was the only way. But then I am more of a tad bit of a cantankerous old fart. 
The first time I shot myself in the head...
Meniere's Sucks Big Time!!!
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Campfire Outfitter
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There is clearly somewhat of a regional divide among us. I can't think of a sportsman that I personally know that is not a Christian. Next week, a BUNCH of us will share in a dove hunt where we will have a group prayer before the event. Anytime we are together, we pray before we eat. My Friends of NRA committee prays after each meeting, and we have a prayer before our banquet. I guess I live in a sheltered world here in the Bible Belt? The preponderance of nonbelievers here on the Fire is somewhat surprising for a guy in rural N.C.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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18 And I tell you that you are Peter,[a] and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades[b] will not overcome it.
In this instance, 'rock' means truth. That's not what the Catholics believe.
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
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