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God chose to make Satan the way he did, knowing what would happen. The creation of Satan was God choice. in addition, God had perfect foreknowledge of what Satan would become the great corrupter, but chose to make him in that manner anyway. God knew the consequences of his actions ahead of time, which makes him responsible for those actions.

There is no love without free will.

Then there no love of God. God threatens Hellfire for those who do not love and accept him, so any choice to do so is not free, but coerced.

This is denial in epic proportions. It is especially hypocritical from those who feel no accountability toward God...nor the need for it.

God created Satan (not his description before the fall) for a specific purpose. He also created him/her (that being is a better term) with free will. Satan chose to reject God's purpose.

God also created you for a specific purpose. If you choose to sin against the Grace of God...will you also blame God for your choice?

If you assume the atheistic position that God is not necessary for morality...that mankind can determine morality for itself...then who is to blame if you fall short of that same morality? You or God?

God commended his love toward us in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

That is not coercion.

That's right.

If He wanted robots He'd have made them.

Lucifer made his choice.
Adam made his choice.
Jesus made his choice.

We all make our own choice.
Everything in life is a choice.
Every step one takes, he's a free moral agent by design.
Once created, life is simply a series of decisions.

It's so easy a child can do it...
We are not robots.

Yeah, no coercion in the Old Testament. Seems it was TOO much for people to handle, so they came up with the New Testament.


"Then God said, "Take your son, your only son, whom you love--Isaac--and go to the region of Moriah. Sacrifice him there as a burnt offering on a mountain I will show you."


But the angel of the LORD called to him from heaven and said, "Abraham, Abraham!" And he said, "Here I am." 12He said, "Do not stretch out your hand against the lad, and do nothing to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me."

When I read some of these posts, I have a hunch that God again (and again) may be saddened to witness some strange working-out of the free will condition He bestowed on mankind. And, he also may be chuckling at the interpretive reasoning and half-baked assumptions some of us come up with due to blind overconfidence, love of self, righteous defiance, willful ignorance and/or many other factors. I do believe He has a strong sense of humor.

He said He did AWAY with the old to usher in the new.

It was a changing of covenants.
Old argument no longer applies.

Old covenant is for lesson, new is for living.
It's so much easier to just live...

Yes I feel no accountability to that which does not exist.

The "free will" you continue to ignore, is that which was, according to Christian tenants, the first step, and done with perfect foreknowledge. By extension, in the above example, Gods choice to make me as "one who could not believe", and knew it with perfect foreknowledge when he did, so yes, withing the supposed Biblical context he would be responsible, just as he was responsible for his choice to create Satan the way he did.

Of course the reality is I see no reason to believe in the existence of any gods, so it is not reasonable to blame that which does not exist.

As for the role of god(s) in morality:

Morality exists.
There is no evidence that god(s) exist
Gods(s) are not necessary for morality.

[b][/b]

Talk about cherry picking:

Revelations 21:8
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Or lets go with the works of Gentle Jesus:

John 15:6
"If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned."

So a threat to burn forever in a lake of brimstone is not a coercion?

According to Chronicles, the Law is forever:

16:15 Be ye mindful always of his covenant; the word which he commanded to a thousand generations;
16:16 Even of the covenant which he made with Abraham, and of his oath unto Isaac;
16:17 And hath confirmed the same to Jacob for a law, and to Israel for an everlasting covenant,

No. That is fact.

Going back to my example of the bridge being out. If I tell you the bridge is out, and that if you continue your coarse you will fall off and likely die.

Is that coercion? Or giving you the information for makeing a reasonable choice?

The facts are:
God created Hell, with perfect foreknowledge that it would be used for more then just Satan and his followers, and that he would be sending human souls to hell to suffer forever. God created the rules by which souls are sent to hell. If you translate that into English, yes, God "blew up the bridge", and tells you to worship him, or God will burn you forever.

This is equivalent to God pouring the gasoline over your head then standing next to you with a lit match while commanding you to love him, or it's "just a fact", that he will drop the match. These are the actions of a twisted psychopath, not a loving divine being.

In that instance, you are the one who blew up the bridge, Just as God created Hell.

A better analogy is the Mafia Boss Analogy.

You got a nice life here....it would be ashamed if something was to happen to it and and you spent the rest of eternity in hell. Tell you what, I got my son here, you reject all reason and believe in him and I won't burn you forever.

It's extortion, plain and simple.

13 And Abraham lifted up his eyes, and looked, and behold behind him a ram caught in a thicket by his horns: and Abraham went a took the ram, and offered him up for a burnt offering in the stead of his son.

Going back to vs 8. And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.

Why would you leave context out?

No. That is fact.

Going back to my example of the bridge being out. If I tell you the bridge is out, and that if you continue your coarse you will fall off and likely die.

Is that coercion? Or giving you the information for makeing a reasonable choice?[/quote]


Hell was created for the Devil and the fallen angles. Hell hath enlarged itself to receive those who reject Christ.

Again, what you call coercion...is just plain facts.

Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Further, the covenent that the passages you quoted, also called an oate...confirmed to Jacob for a law...is NOT the Law you allude to.

The covenent made with Abraham, Isaac, and confirmed with Jacob, predates the Law of Moses.

The covenent referenced by the scriptures you cite has to do with rightesness by faith. This is the same message of the New Testement.

God didn't provide a lamb for Jephthah. God accepted his daughter as a burnt offering.

You did not answer my question.

Hell was created for the Devil and the fallen angles. Hell hath enlarged itself to receive those who reject Christ.

Again, what you call coercion...is just plain facts.[/quote]

The facts are:
God created Hell, with perfect foreknowledge that it would be used for more then just Satan and his followers, and that he would be sending human souls to hell to suffer forever. God created the rules by which souls are sent to hell. If you translate that into English, yes, God "blew up the bridge", and tells you to worship him, or God will burn you forever.

This is equivalent to God pouring the gasoline over your head then standing next to you with a lit match while commanding you to love him, or it's "just a fact", that he will drop the match. These are the actions of a twisted psychopath, not a loving divine being.