I received my new 7-08 from a well known builder with a 1/4" guarantee a few months ago. So far I have ran 1 box of factory ammo through it & 23 140 Sierra fb with 41.0 gr of IMR 4350. Except for a single 1/2" group it is a 11/2" rifle.
I plan to try Varget, 145 Speer Hot Cores, 150 partations & 150 Sierra BTs.
It has a new Zeiss Conquest on it with double dovetail Leupold mounts. I don't think the scope is bad but if 1 of the above loads I' trade out the scope for a proven German Zeiss.
If it doesn't shoot the 150 Sierras should I take it back or try all the above loads?
For precision trials use Sierras, Ballistic Tips, Classic Hunter Bergers, or AMaxes.
If you're really looking to shoot 1/4" groups you should get a handle on runout of the loaded rounds.
What format is the rifle? A 1/4" guarantee is pretty strong for a sporter.
With a sporter I doubt I'm a 1/4" shooter no matter how good the rifle.
The rifle with scope & a #3 Lilja barrel weighs just under 8#, I do not expect 1/4" groups, I will be happy if it will shoot steady 1/2-3/4 groups if I do my part. I have had several Jarrett rifles, none would constantly hold sub 3/4" groups.
This is the first time I have used this builder. The rifle is well made & was built on time, hopefully it just wants a 150 gr bullet but it's the first 7mm I have ever owned that would not shoot Sierra 140gr spritzers.
First of all you have ZERO chance of claim in Court.
Secondly your claim needs clarification"
Except for a single 1/2" group it is a 11/2" rifle.
I don't even Understand.
Your SO CALLED guarantee needs to be established in a court of law.
There is NO help available. sorry!
You are so stupid.
The OP said nothing about going to court.
The smart business man will take care of his customer without the need for lawyers.
GAH,
Some rifles just don't like certain bullets. I'd try the bullets recommended by Mathman, each with a few different powders and see if I hit something it liked. If I didn't have any luck after that, I'd feel comfortable sending it back to the smith.
Good Luck.
Last edited by antelope_sniper; 10/10/15.
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
I received my new 7-08 from a well known builder with a 1/4" guarantee a few months ago. So far I have ran 1 box of factory ammo through it & 23 140 Sierra fb with 41.0 gr of IMR 4350. Except for a single 1/2" group it is a 11/2" rifle.
Two points: 1. - you have hardly tried it yet; 2 different loads isn't much of a test though sometimes you can get lucky.
2. - You need to find out what loads or ammo your rifle was proofed with. If it was guaranteed, not just a general "potential probability" deal. If it was actually guaranteed, the tester of said rifle should be able to provide the target along with pertaining info about the load.
Sometimes, the air you 'let in'matters less than the air you 'let out'.
What format is the rifle? A 1/4" guarantee is pretty strong for a sporter.
It's pretty strong, period. I'd ask the smith what load he used, including all the components and the OAL to shoot the 1/4 inch group before he sent it to you.
...find out what loads or ammo your rifle was proofed with...If it was actually guaranteed, the tester of said rifle should be able to provide the target along with pertaining info about the load.
This. If the builder didn't know enough to send you this, well...
"There's more to optics than meets the eye."--anon
"...most of us would be better off losing half a pound around the waist than half a pound on our rifle."--dhg
It is obvious that some of you have never had a rifle built. I have not even talked to the builder about my accuracy problems , I was simply asking for advice, I expect the builder to make the rifle right which he will. I use 3 name builders and none of them have ever proofed or even fired a rifle they build for me but on 1 occasion the rifle wouldn't shoot to standard, the builder looked at the bedding fixed it and the rifle is a .5-.75" rifle now.
As I said in the original post I do NOT expect a 8# rifle with a 3x9 scope, using hunting bullets to shoot 1/4" groups but I expect a $3,000 rifle to shoot .5-.75" groups constantly.
I will NOT sue the builder under any circumstances, they make a quality product and will make it right. As most of you know there is a world of difference between a 1.5" rifle and a .75" rife.
It is obvious that some of you have never had a rifle built. I have not even talked to the builder about my accuracy problems , I was simply asking for advice, I expect the builder to make the rifle right which he will. I use 3 name builders and none of them have ever proofed or even fired a rifle they build for me ...
I've never put that much money into one, but every rifle I've had barreled and 'improved' has always been fired by the builder, though not necessarily tested for accuracy - though that has sometimes been an option if I wanted to pay the extra that such work entails. I have loaned my dies for ammo-making such that a rifle can be tested when it isn't a caliber that they normally produce. I know the builders I have worked with have always stated that their work - if they have had control (gotten paid for) factors such as truing, etc, should produce sub-MOA accuracy if I load good ammo and seek to find loads that the rifle likes. I don't think anybody (builder) has the hubris to suggest that a person could pull loads off the shelf or out of a book at random and shoot 1/4 MOA or even 1 MOA groups consistently.
Sometimes, the air you 'let in'matters less than the air you 'let out'.
I have all "cheap" rifles that shoot easily under one inch and are capable of better when I do my part right. My only quasi-custom rifle is a Savage 7 mag that a buddy put a Criterion barrel on.
An expensive, custom rifle should shoot as claimed, IF the shooter is doing his part of the equation correctly.
You did not "seen" anything, you "saw" it. A "creek" has water in it, a "crick" is what you get in your neck. Liberals with guns are nothing but hypocrites.
I've never seen 1 1/2" loads get better with more shooting. Not sure why I'd have slung 43 rounds downrange in hopes of them doing something better.
Seems like you're chasing your tail a bit. I'm not one that cares what something will do with 47 different bullets, pick the one you want to hunt with, kiss and work backwards from there.
If the builder guarantees 1/4" accuracy then they should have tested it out to make sure it delivers that, which should include load data and target info.
My 7.5 scoped custom does under 1/2" @ 100 with three different loads I've tried with a simple 6x scope. Before he sent it to me he broke it in and proved its accuracy, shooting under 1/2" with factory ammo and a 12x scope.
I'd contact the builder about what they used to prove accuracy, go that route, and if it doesn't deliver send it back for work till it does.
The desert is a true treasure for him who seeks refuge from men and the evil of men. In it is contentment In it is death and all you seek (Quoted from "The Bleeding of the Stone" Ibrahim Al-Koni)
Exactly. Two knuckleheads bolted together with nothing valuable to offer.
To the OP, it sounds like the company I referenced and if that's so, they also state that these groups are obtainable with carefully assembled hand loads and using wind flags at a range. Jim Borden also adds that caveat to his accuracy guarantee as well. Not saying those guys are full of bull, but for a sporter weight rifle to shoot groups that small on any type of a consistent basis is extremely hard to achieve.
My 2 cents is to try Nosler BT's (140's or 150's) as I've done with my 280 Ackley. Jarrett once said that if one of his rifles don't shoot to his accuracy standard using Nosler BT's and a known load, he brings the rifle back to the shop to find out what's wrong with the rifle.
Read this piece of advise and follow it. I use Nosler BT's and CT/BT's almost exclusively for deer hunting in my 280 Ackley, 30/06 and 300 WM. There is little sense in assembling loads with bullets you don't intend to use chasing an accuracy guarantee.
Originally Posted by Steelhead
Seems like you're chasing your tail a bit. I'm not one that cares what something will do with 47 different bullets, pick the one you want to hunt with, kiss and work backwards from there.
If the builder guarantees 1/4" accuracy then they should have tested it out to make sure it delivers that, which should include load data and target info.
Exactly. How can anyone including the builder know how accurate a rifle is without shooting it?
Plus, if I were the builder of rifles with a 1/4" guarantee, I'd plan on many of my customers not being able to achieve that and I'd want the proof of the rifle's accuracy in my hands when I got the inevitable call-backs.
Something as simple as which scope the buyer chooses and how he mounts it could put him outside the 1/4" realm, without even getting to the ammo.
The are very few true 1/4" rifles that aren't designed for bench competition. There are still fewer who can produce ammo capable of the kind of accuracy and still fewer shooters who are capable of shooting five shot 1/4" groups. Also, in my not so humble opinion rare is the shop who can back up a 1/4" claim. BTW three shot groups are almost meaningless.
I have a proven way to get your desired group. Shoot at least 20 rounds, there will be at least one group of 3 that will meet your goal, call the rest fliers.
I have a proven way to get your desired group. Shoot at least 20 rounds, there will be at least one group of 3 that will meet your goal, call the rest fliers.
unfortunately often the most accurate bullets are NOT bullets I trust for hunting.
Like Ballistic tips.
If you want to see pure accuracy, get match grade bullets, size the brass for the chamber, make your runout nil, run an audette or ladder test, bullet seated out close to lands but never touching. If engaged make sure you are at least 20th engaged or 20th off the rifling. Nothing between.
Shoot the rifle off bags, front bag closer to the action, not the front of the stock, dry fire a LOT before shooting groups
Shoot in no mirage conditions and calm winds.
IMHO if the first group out of a custom gun shoots 1.5 inches, I would never shoot that load again. Unless you are not a good shot/shooter.
My first thought, as always is, use a proven scope next. Thats the FIRST thing to look at, assuming you know you put the bases and rings and scope on tight and correctly.
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
If you've had several Jarrett rifles and none would hold consistent 3/4" groups then I suspect the problem might be with "the Indian and not the arrow". All my Jarretts, and I've had several too, will shoot half inch or less all day long. So will my Carolina Precisions. You mentioned that you purchased rifles from these makers without load testing from the gunsmiths as well.....I don't know of one solitary accuracy gunsmith that will claim any accuracy guarantee without load work up and function testing...not one. I live right down the road from McWhorter , but prefer the other makers mentioned by a large margin, as do my local hunting friends.
My accuracy and hunting load for my custom 7/08: 41.0 grains of IMR 4064 behind a Nosler 140 grain BT. Federal 210M primers. Shoots .2" all day long, and drops deer in their tracks.
Good luck
Last edited by Godogs57; 10/10/15.
You only live once, but...if you do it right, once is enough.
If you've had several Jarrett rifles and none would hold consistent 3/4" groups then I suspect the problem might be with "the Indian and not the arrow". All my Jarretts, and I've had several too, will shoot half inch or less all day long. So will my Carolina Precisions. You mentioned that you purchased rifles from these makers without load testing from the gunsmiths as well.....I don't know of one solitary accuracy gunsmith that will claim any accuracy guarantee without load work up and function testing...not one. I live right down the road from McWhorter , but prefer the other makers mentioned by a large margin, as do my local hunting friends.
My accuracy and hunting load for my custom 7/08: 41.0 grains of IMR 4064 behind a Nosler 140 grain BT. Federal 210M primers. Shoots .2" all day long, and drops deer in their tracks.
Good luck
Please post pictures of 3 consecutive groups under 1/2" shot with a .284 or larger sportster rifle using hunting bullets & a hunting scope.
As usual the serious posters are subjected to the kibitzing wrong way Corrigan, hecklers whose malicious little left stab Guinea twister is always present. Alas that detritus in society.
I've been hunting, shooting and reloading for 70 years now. Back in the old days I put together my own rifles. Developed my own accuracy.
First of all if some custom builder offered a guarantee of 1/4" or MOA or whatever you want to call a group size, I would turn around and march out immediately.
Secondly, without a written performance guarantee, signed by both party's, the buyer doesn't have a Maidens prayer. It is hearsay inadmissible in a court of law.
Third: As almost everyone here knows, there are so many variables to accuracy that they could fill a book.
Fourth: When the buyer threatens to return the rifle, all the provider has to say is NO. Then it's an impasse. The two choices are #1. Swallow your pride and keep the rifle with the knowledge that you have been duped.. #2. Go to court for recourse and recovery. Which you will LOSE if it's a verbal agreement.
It may come as a shock but I was in the contracting business for years with State Governments as well as Federal Governments and local private contractors. I know the rules and requirements for compliance.
As usual the serious posters are subjected to the kibitzing wrong way Corrigan, hecklers whose malicious little left stab Guinea twister is always present. Alas that detritus in society.
I've been hunting, shooting and reloading for 70 years now. Back in the old days I put together my own rifles. Developed my own accuracy.
First of all if some custom builder offered a guarantee of 1/4" or MOA or whatever you want to call a group size, I would turn around and march out immediately.
Secondly, without a written performance guarantee, signed by both party's, the buyer doesn't have a Maidens prayer. It is hearsay inadmissible in a court of law.
Third: As almost everyone here knows, there are so many variables to accuracy that they could fill a book.
Fourth: When the buyer threatens to return the rifle, all the provider has to say is NO. Then it's an impasse. The two choices are #1. Swallow your pride and keep the rifle with the knowledge that you have been duped.. #2. Go to court for recourse and recovery. Which you will LOSE if it's a verbal agreement.
It may come as a shock but I was in the contracting business for years with State Governments as well as Federal Governments and local private contractors. I know the rules and requirements for compliance.
Life Member SCI Life Member DSC Member New Mexico Shooting Sports Association
Take your responsibilities seriously, never yourself-Ken Howell
First of all if some custom builder offered a guarantee of 1/4" or MOA or whatever you want to call a group size, I would turn around and march out immediately.
And the gunsmith would happily let the door hit you on the ass on your way out.
Originally Posted by William_E_Tibbe
Secondly, without a written performance guarantee, signed by both party's, the buyer doesn't have a Maidens prayer. It is hearsay inadmissible in a court of law.
Willy: There's more than one rifle maker that gives an accuracy guarantee. None of them are signed by the buyer.
Originally Posted by William_E_Tibbe
I've been hunting, shooting and reloading for 70 years now. Back in the old days I put together my own rifles. Developed my own accuracy.
A lifetime of stupid is no better than a few years' worth.
When AI built my 280AI it included the load data and a box of rounds they had loaded.Theirs was a half inch guarantee,which was easily met.I would talk to the maker first thing.
Last edited by Huntz; 10/11/15.
Its all right to be white!! Stupidity left unattended will run rampant Don't argue with stupid people, They will drag you down to their level and then win by experience
Accuracy guarantees depend both on the shooter and the maker.
Once tested a .300 Weatherby from a gunsmith who guaranteed 1/2" 5-shot groups with factory ammo. He even sent along some factory ammo to shoot in the rifle. I certainly didn't find that accuracy, but did manage to get one load to group 5 in 3/4" after sorting the ammo for bullet concentricity. When I told the gunsmith my results he said, "I'll take 3/4 inch!"
Much of it depends on whether they specify 3-shot or 5-shot groups. Contrary to what many believe, 5-shot groups will always average larger than 3-shot groups, even from a benchrest rifle, and no, it's not always (or even often) due to barrels warming up but the laws of chance: Three shots aren't enought to demonstrate the actual maximum spread from a certain rifle or load.
This is why a lot of guarantees are for 3-shot groups, and most customers will be satisfied if most 3-shot groups make the guarantee--but the shooter also has to understand several things about bench shooting, including some most people ignore, like wind flags, parallax, and really anal handloading techniques.
Many also mount a brand-new scope on their brand-new rifle, and if the rifle doesn't shoot to the guarantee, how do you know whether it's the rifle or the scope? One custom riflesmith I know constantly has to deal with people whose scopes go bad, but say, "But I spent $1000 on this XXXXX!"
One other comment: I've thoroughly tested not just one but several Jarrett rifles and have yet to encounter one that wouldn't put three shots inside a half-inch consistently with the right load. But you can also make them shoot 2" groups. I know this because the first one I tested, a 7mm-08 AI, came with some handloads supplied by Jarret. Turned out they were loaded by an employee who was a drug abuser who was fired while I was still testing the rifle. I borrowed a set of dies from Kenny and my own handloads shot a lot better.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.” John Steinbeck
It's Sunday morning. I'm sitting here with nothing to do except to be a good and decent Christian interested in helping my fellow Countrymen.
Why would you find it necessary to interject yet another insulting cheap shot at me. What did I ever do to you ?
Calling me Willy is a term of endearment, My friends call me Willy. I like that. I know that you like me, I can tell.
If there is more than one rifle maker that offers a performance guarantee that simply confirms that the industry is polluted with faker, charlatan, con artists vying with competition to lure in the suckers.
You will never understand my mentality and logic. I think in MULTIPLE scenarios all inclusive with all, or most, alternatives, and ramifications.
That's probably why so many can't follow/fathom my posts even though I have gone to more and more explanations.
It's Sunday morning. I'm sitting here with nothing to do except to be a good and decent Christian interested in helping my fellow Countrymen.
Why would you find it necessary to interject yet another insulting cheap shot at me. What did I ever do to you ?
Calling me Willy is a term of endearment, My friends call me Willy. I like that. I know that you like me, I can tell.
If there is more than one rifle maker that offers a performance guarantee that simply confirms that the industry is polluted with faker, charlatan, con artists vying with competition to lure in the suckers. You will never understand my mentality and logic. I think in MULTIPLE scenarios all inclusive with all, or most, alternatives, and ramifications.
That's probably why so many can't follow/fathom my posts even though I have gone to more and more explanations.
I have a proven way to get your desired group. Shoot at least 20 rounds, there will be at least one group of 3 that will meet your goal, call the rest fliers.
Amazing what you can learn on the Campfire...
Shrapnel, I hope you're having a fine Sunday, perhaps out hunting grouse or "reducing to edible biomass" some other tasty critter in a "sportsmanlike" way of course.
If I follow your reasoning and take it to another level, let's say using a "higher math" approach, and I find as many of the targets I have saved over the years (not 70 years yet, but still a good sample), and scan them in the computer, then overlay the scans, I can probably not only find "at least one group of 3" that will fit my desire to shoot a small group.. I may just find that over the years I have shot a one hole group centered on the targets (especially if I overlay them "correctly" ).
Oh, there may be a "flyer" or six out near the edges that the overlay may not have accounted for. I believe these to be a necessary evil.
Most of my targets have a "1st shot out of a clean barrel shot" on them , then a "pre-sight in" shot , then usually a sighter, maybe a wind checker, possibly a "gnat flew up my nose" shot, and sometimes one of those I'm "having a bad day" flyers.
Those shots that are all clustered near each other, those are the ones I shot "for the record:.
But taking your idea to the next level works even better. I found out today, on this wonderful campfire, that I've been shooting one hole groups for a long time, and that hole is only getting more holier the more targets I overlay.
For those of you without a scanner and computer you can do a beta test of my theory. Build yourself a "private" target backer out of some stiff substance, one only you will use. Bring it to the range or wherever you do your shooting. Use it exclusively for your range testing, ladders, sighting in, plinking, etc. Just staple your new target right over the old ones (simulating my scanner approach). You will be amazed at the one hole group you've been shooting all your life
D--m I love this place. Geno
PS, OP, I truly hope you get it worked out, and it sounds like you will eventually. I have only one "custom" gun, a revolver that did not come with a gaurantee, but it shoots great. I hope you end up satisfied in the end. After all, the journey toward those smaller groups, a larger set of antlers, a better pack frame, a tastier recipe, nicer wood, etc is what keeps us loonies hanging around here.
PPS, I've been busy with other stuff while typing this up so I hope no one has "read my mind" and beat me too it. I'm not wearing the tin foil hat today so it's possible the "watchers" have one upped me.
The desert is a true treasure for him who seeks refuge from men and the evil of men. In it is contentment In it is death and all you seek (Quoted from "The Bleeding of the Stone" Ibrahim Al-Koni)
ehnm, you got that right, again and again and again and again........
You think it's because of the multi level thinking stuff maybe?
Geno
PS, hope you have a great Sunday.
The desert is a true treasure for him who seeks refuge from men and the evil of men. In it is contentment In it is death and all you seek (Quoted from "The Bleeding of the Stone" Ibrahim Al-Koni)
Quick way to have a half MOA shooter. Take two heavy weight targets and lay one on the other Now shoot for score. Take the to on off (the one with the powder burns) and toss it away.
For bragging rights, use your non-dominate hand to write a witness signature with a date. Trim to wallet size and laminate.
This you can use in the old folks home to impress absolutely no one but will make you feel good as you enjoy your tapioca and imaginary memories.
The desert is a true treasure for him who seeks refuge from men and the evil of men. In it is contentment In it is death and all you seek (Quoted from "The Bleeding of the Stone" Ibrahim Al-Koni)
No we haven't. Now quit dysfunctioning, and get back to the cabal.
This "functioning" we've been "dys"ing? Does it have anything to do with "high math", derivatives, area under the curve, and cool s--t like that?
Or is it more like P-Funk "funktioning"?
I'm unclear about the squirrels too. I've had some funky squirrels dissin' on me from the tops of trees where I couldn't quite shoot them "sportsmanlike" with a common .22 and I'd left the very sporting (legal and ethical too I might add)
Pirelli (oops, that's my fancy Italian tires) Peroni (oops again, a fancy Italian beer I used to drink) Piotti shotgun (there, I had to go look at the label on mine so I could get the fancy Italian name right for ya'll )
at home so I couldn't shoot those bushytails when they took wing.
I'm happy to remain a squirrel and not be promoted to perverted halfwit. I've heard that young women in Cowboy hats like warm furry critters. And, I happen to think my "wit" is about full. (of what I can't say in mixed company!)
Geno
PS, did our friend of the three initials ever get the OP on track with where, when, how, why he should or should not send back his rifle?
PS, OP, again, I wish you the best of luck getting your rifle problem addressed. It seems you know and have dealt with enough custom rifles to have a good idea. A certain other gentleman we like to "pick on" , perhaps not.
The desert is a true treasure for him who seeks refuge from men and the evil of men. In it is contentment In it is death and all you seek (Quoted from "The Bleeding of the Stone" Ibrahim Al-Koni)
PS, it buys cool "stuff", just ask the "sportsman".
The desert is a true treasure for him who seeks refuge from men and the evil of men. In it is contentment In it is death and all you seek (Quoted from "The Bleeding of the Stone" Ibrahim Al-Koni)
I might actually have to get out a calcumulator to figger it out. 'lessin I desides to take of'n won ov my choses.
G
The desert is a true treasure for him who seeks refuge from men and the evil of men. In it is contentment In it is death and all you seek (Quoted from "The Bleeding of the Stone" Ibrahim Al-Koni)
Secondly, without a written performance guarantee, signed by both party's, the buyer doesn't have a Maidens prayer. It is hearsay inadmissible in a court of law.
Fourth: When the buyer threatens to return the rifle, all the provider has to say is NO. Then it's an impasse. The two choices are #1. Swallow your pride and keep the rifle with the knowledge that you have been duped.. #2. Go to court for recourse and recovery. Which you will LOSE if it's a verbal agreement.
It may come as a shock but I was in the contracting business for years with State Governments as well as Federal Governments and local private contractors. I know the rules and requirements for compliance.
It may come as a shock but I was in the contracting business for years with State Governments as well as Federal Governments and local private contractors. I know the rules and requirements for compliance.
No shock whatsoever to see your verification that you are a product of "Government" contracting experience.
Abject stupidity, coupled with truly mind boggling arrogance typify that game, and a dishonest streak's a real carrier enhancer.
All in all, you seem very highly qualified.
GTC
Member, Clan of the Border Rats -- “Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on or by imbeciles who really mean it.”- Mark Twain
It may come as a shock but I was in the contracting business for years with State Governments as well as Federal Governments and local private contractors. I know the rules and requirements for compliance.
No shock whatsoever to see your verification that you are a product of "Government" contracting experience.
Abject stupidity, coupled with truly mind boggling arrogance typify that game, and a dishonest streak's a real carrier enhancer.
All in all, you seem very highly qualified.
GTC
Sucking chit from Wayside latrines don`t take to much smarts.
Its all right to be white!! Stupidity left unattended will run rampant Don't argue with stupid people, They will drag you down to their level and then win by experience
Very few rifles meet what I'd call a 1/4" at 100 yards guarantee.
"This is a 1/4" rifle" should mean something on the order of the following:
Assuming good range conditions and ammunition the rifle likes, the guarantor should be able to use the rifle, on demand, to shoot a set of five, five shot groups averaging no more than 1/4" at 100 yards.
.4 - .7 Three shot groups might be more realistic in a sporter 7/08.
Run one hole 5 shot groups from a 700 Varmint - 140 BTs over 4064 - edged out Varget in accuracy.
Use best brass. WW if not Lapua or Norma. Primers can matter. Seating depth MATTERS - A lot....close or into lands worked best for me, but some folks do well with a jump. For 1/4 " me thinks a jump won't cut it. But not many spotters do 1/4" consistently. Perfect rifle,load, conditions, and injun.
Also- Mathman gave good advice.
If me, I would run 140 AB/BT, 140 VLD, 150 BT. The 150 Sierra MK is a very accurate bullet but not my choice for hunting.
The OP says he contracted for a 7-08 whatever that may be. Isn't 7mm - .284". How can you get a .250 group.
How does one measure group size?
Willy, if you've handloaded, wildcatted, and shot for 70 years, how is it that you never learned what a group is?
It really depends what "level" you're thinking on.
Pick a level, any level.
I think the inside of this Tibbe's head must sound like a ball mill running completely empty, on badly worn bearings.
Last edited by crossfireoops; 10/12/15.
Member, Clan of the Border Rats -- “Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on or by imbeciles who really mean it.”- Mark Twain
I just think it's easier to find outside edges than to "guesstimate" the center of the bullet hole when measuring groups.
Particularly as people tend to report groups to 3 decimal places.
Yeah, and for a lot of purposes it's really moot.
That said, I just did a test. I have a target on my desk with two groups shot by a 7mm rifle. The bullet marks are well defined.
First I measured directly center to center as carefully as I could. Then I measured outside and subtracted a bullet diameter. This second measurement produced a smaller number.
Then I measured the diameter of the bullet hole marks. They were .25" to .26". Call it .03 under bullet diameter.
Care to guess what the difference in the group size measurements was?
I just think it's easier to find outside edges than to "guesstimate" the center of the bullet hole when measuring groups.
Particularly as people tend to report groups to 3 decimal places.
Yeah, and for a lot of purposes it's really moot.
That said, I just did a test. I have a target on my desk with two groups shot by a 7mm rifle. The bullet marks are well defined.
First I measured directly center to center as carefully as I could. Then I measured outside and subtracted a bullet diameter. This second measurement produced a smaller number.
Then I measured the diameter of the bullet hole marks. They were .25" to .26". Call it .03 under bullet diameter.
Care to guess what the difference in the group size measurements was?
I just think it's easier to find outside edges than to "guesstimate" the center of the bullet hole when measuring groups.
Particularly as people tend to report groups to 3 decimal places.
Yeah, and for a lot of purposes it's really moot.
That said, I just did a test. I have a target on my desk with two groups shot by a 7mm rifle. The bullet marks are well defined.
First I measured directly center to center as carefully as I could. Then I measured outside and subtracted a bullet diameter. This second measurement produced a smaller number.
Then I measured the diameter of the bullet hole marks. They were .25" to .26". Call it .03 under bullet diameter.
Care to guess what the difference in the group size measurements was?
You already know everything. Why do you need him to tell you?
He who joyfully marches in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would suffice.
I just think it's easier to find outside edges than to "guesstimate" the center of the bullet hole when measuring groups.
Particularly as people tend to report groups to 3 decimal places.
Yeah, and for a lot of purposes it's really moot.
That said, I just did a test. I have a target on my desk with two groups shot by a 7mm rifle. The bullet marks are well defined.
First I measured directly center to center as carefully as I could. Then I measured outside and subtracted a bullet diameter. This second measurement produced a smaller number.
Then I measured the diameter of the bullet hole marks. They were .25" to .26". Call it .03 under bullet diameter.
Care to guess what the difference in the group size measurements was?
I received my new 7-08 from a well known builder with a 1/4" guarantee a few months ago. So far I have ran 1 box of factory ammo through it & 23 140 Sierra fb with 41.0 gr of IMR 4350. Except for a single 1/2" group it is a 11/2" rifle.
I plan to try Varget, 145 Speer Hot Cores, 150 partations & 150 Sierra BTs.
It has a new Zeiss Conquest on it with double dovetail Leupold mounts. I don't think the scope is bad but if 1 of the above loads I' trade out the scope for a proven German Zeiss.
If it doesn't shoot the 150 Sierras should I take it back or try all the above loads?
IME, bench rest technique becomes more critical, lighter the rifle. The really light ones can be a challenge.
I'd call the maker and see what load they used for their 1/4" groups. I'd find a bud who was a bench rest shooter with experience and let him try that load. Maybe get two or three really good shooters to give it a whirl.
If all results pointed to an inch and a half gun, then I'd call the maker and have a heart to heart discussion about their quarter inch guarantee.
Word moot above applies. For a hunting rifle. Not sure if 1/4 Moa is more effective than a 3/4. How far you shooting game with that 7-08 would be interesting.
Willy, if you've handloaded, wildcatted, and shot for 70 years, how is it that you never learned what a group is?
Take a young fool, give him a life time of training, and you get an old fool.
kinda like sobering up a horse thief,
One still has a horse thief to deal with.
And we have someone who just doesn't get it.
Geno
The desert is a true treasure for him who seeks refuge from men and the evil of men. In it is contentment In it is death and all you seek (Quoted from "The Bleeding of the Stone" Ibrahim Al-Koni)
25-06 Neidner wildcat, original Belgian FN Mauser commercial sporter, bought in about 1952-53. It was a 250-3000 re-chambered to the 25-06 a few months after purchase.
People who have sporter weight rifles shooting hunting bullets that are shooting .250 five shot groups at 100 yards are to be admired and emulated. Wave to them when you see them driving their 22 mpg Suburbans. whelennut
I like to do my hunting BEFORE I pull the trigger! There is only one kind of dead, but there are many different kinds of wounded.
People who have sporter weight rifles shooting hunting bullets that are shooting .250 five shot groups at 100 yards are to be admired and emulated. Wave to them when you see them driving their 22 mpg Suburbans. whelennut
I consider it reasonable for a custom hunting rifle to consistently group three hunting bullets into 1" or less at 100 yds with minimal load work. With every bullet and every load, no.
People who have sporter weight rifles shooting hunting bullets that are shooting .250 five shot groups at 100 yards are to be admired and emulated. Wave to them when you see them driving their 22 mpg Suburbans. whelennut
I hear about a lot more half inch rifles than I actually see at the range.
You guys do realize that 1/2 inch groups can be acquired by bad shooters getting lucky just that one time.
These are the same guys that when shooting at geese and the fourth one back on the other side of the flock falls, they proudly claim that that was the precise one he was shooting at.
You guys do realize that 1/2 inch groups can be acquired by bad shooters getting lucky just that one time.
These are the same guys that when shooting at geese and the fourth one back on the other side of the flock falls, they proudly claim that that was the precise one he was shooting at.
Of course. That's why my spec for a half moa rifle is one that on demand delivers four or five, five shot groups averaging half moa or less. Takes the fluke element right out.
I consider it reasonable for a custom hunting rifle to consistently group three hunting bullets into 1" or less at 100 yds with minimal load work. With every bullet and every load, no.
I'd say that's quite reasonable, or even a bit lax for a custom, since I've handloaded for a bunch of stock to lightly modified factory rifles which had no problem meeting that specification.
I consider it reasonable for a custom hunting rifle to consistently group three hunting bullets into 1" or less at 100 yds with minimal load work. With every bullet and every load, no.
Yes. Missing with such a rifle puts the responsibility elsewhere than the rifle. I doubt I'd want to drag a 1/4" rifle around for hunting. (Granted some might be capable on some days, under certain conditions, but a 1/4" rifle is a shooting tool, not a hunting tool.)
Sometimes, the air you 'let in'matters less than the air you 'let out'.
You guys do realize that 1/2 inch groups can be acquired by bad shooters getting lucky just that one time.
These are the same guys that when shooting at geese and the fourth one back on the other side of the flock falls, they proudly claim that that was the precise one he was shooting at.
I've never seen a bad shooter luck into a 1/2" group. Not saying it can't happen, but I just don't see how it could. A guy who typically groups 3-4" at 100 getting a 2" group, sure, 1/2" not likely.
Sadly, there is more- much more. I found the rear scope mount "shimmed" with a tapered .040" piece of aluminum which made the scope mount out of square with the bore. It was so bad that the scope ran out of adjustment trying to zero it...at 25 yards!
"I didn't realize we had so many snipers in this country." by J23
I have a proven way to get your desired group. Shoot at least 20 rounds, there will be at least one group of 3 that will meet your goal, call the rest fliers.
Amazing what you can learn on the Campfire...
Don only shoots 1 shot groups.
I thought it was 2, but you both are making some good points...
Originally Posted by raybass
I try to stick with the basics, they do so well. Nothing fancy mind you, just plain jane will get it done with style.
Originally Posted by Pharmseller
You want to see an animal drop right now? Shoot him in the ear hole.
Accuracy guarantees depend both on the shooter and the maker.
Once tested a .300 Weatherby from a gunsmith who guaranteed 1/2" 5-shot groups with factory ammo. He even sent along some factory ammo to shoot in the rifle. I certainly didn't find that accuracy, but did manage to get one load to group 5 in 3/4" after sorting the ammo for bullet concentricity. When I told the gunsmith my results he said, "I'll take 3/4 inch!"
Much of it depends on whether they specify 3-shot or 5-shot groups. Contrary to what many believe, 5-shot groups will always average larger than 3-shot groups, even from a benchrest rifle, and no, it's not always (or even often) due to barrels warming up but the laws of chance: Three shots aren't enought to demonstrate the actual maximum spread from a certain rifle or load.
This is why a lot of guarantees are for 3-shot groups, and most customers will be satisfied if most 3-shot groups make the guarantee--but the shooter also has to understand several things about bench shooting, including some most people ignore, like wind flags, parallax, and really anal handloading techniques.
Many also mount a brand-new scope on their brand-new rifle, and if the rifle doesn't shoot to the guarantee, how do you know whether it's the rifle or the scope? One custom riflesmith I know constantly has to deal with people whose scopes go bad, but say, "But I spent $1000 on this XXXXX!"
One other comment: I've thoroughly tested not just one but several Jarrett rifles and have yet to encounter one that wouldn't put three shots inside a half-inch consistently with the right load. But you can also make them shoot 2" groups. I know this because the first one I tested, a 7mm-08 AI, came with some handloads supplied by Jarret. Turned out they were loaded by an employee who was a drug abuser who was fired while I was still testing the rifle. I borrowed a set of dies from Kenny and my own handloads shot a lot better.
Spot on post John...
Originally Posted by raybass
I try to stick with the basics, they do so well. Nothing fancy mind you, just plain jane will get it done with style.
Originally Posted by Pharmseller
You want to see an animal drop right now? Shoot him in the ear hole.
People who have sporter weight rifles shooting hunting bullets that are shooting .250 five shot groups at 100 yards are to be admired and emulated. Wave to them when you see them driving their 22 mpg Suburbans. whelennut
My suburban only gets 20...
Originally Posted by raybass
I try to stick with the basics, they do so well. Nothing fancy mind you, just plain jane will get it done with style.
Originally Posted by Pharmseller
You want to see an animal drop right now? Shoot him in the ear hole.
I wonder if this "craftsman" is going blind or hitting Happy Hour? There are to many gigs here to swallow. I would love to hear how he ever got a good reputation.
I like to do my hunting BEFORE I pull the trigger! There is only one kind of dead, but there are many different kinds of wounded.
![[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]](https://i.postimg.cc/G9RDVKXr/DSCN4329.jpg)
![[Linked Image]](http://s1243.photobucket.com/user/elkhunterinnm/media/banghead.gif.html)
![[Linked Image]](http://s1243.photobucket.com/user/elkhunterinnm/media/head-wall.png.html)
)
![[Linked Image]](http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t61/bobmarleyneilyoung/Mobile%20Uploads/box-of-rocks-meme-generator-this-is-a-box-of-rocks-please-try-to-be-smarter-than-it-2d8dba_zpszxl2pd7v.jpeg)
![[Linked Image]](http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/Erfurt_Front_Receiver_Ring_Recoil_Lug.png)