Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Elk Hunting Ethical or not? 1376 yard elk by a 12 year old

MY take: Kid shot roughly a 2 foot, 3 shot group. Missed one, gut shot 2, killed 3.

Is it then ethical if, IN A PRACTICAL SITUATION ON GAME, NOT ON PRACTICE TARGETS, to take a 100 yard shot on a deer, if the best one can do with the rifle/shooter/extraneous factors, is a 2 foot group at 100 yards with 3 shots? ("Team" or not!)

If it is not, then I suggest one should limit oneself to a 25 yard shot on a moose size target, in said practical (not practice) situations.

How did they determine the range? 2,000 yard range finder?

Never mind- I just googled it.

smokepole,

I don't think they treated the elk with "disdain," but it sure seemed like the shot was taken without regard whether the elk might be wounded by the first shot.

And while that sort of observation is often "countered" with the all-too-true argument that "short-range" hunters often wound game, that's as irrelevant as a teenager's excuse that "all the other kids do it." Wounded is wounded, whether it happens at 13 yards or 1376.

I wasn't referring to the OP or the video, just trying to respond to Ringman with an explanation of what people mean when they talk about respect for animals we're putting bullets into.

But come to think of it, shooting at an animal without regard to whether you kill it cleanly or just wound it comes pretty close to "disdain" in my estimation. If that first shot clean miss had been a little better it would've been a poor hit, and chances are they'd never have gotten the second shot or recovered the elk.

Only a fool would paint himself into that corner.

Only a fool would try to take the concept of "the pussification of American youth" and apply it to a kid killing a bull.

Now, go ahead and try to paint me into a corner.

I would call that "disdain" for the elk.

I've looked at the video several times but saw only two shots, not three.

Based on the father's description, though, it does appear it was about a 2 foot "group". Lots of opportunity for things to go wrong with a "group" that size. Primary consideration was to make the video. Concern that the elk might be wounded and lost appeared to be nil.

Let's delve further into the arena of disdain. In a previous thread we saw some videos of the Benoits shooting running Deer and it would be hard to argue against them being some of the best Deer hunters in America. I happen to wish I had their knowledge and ability. Yet I can guarantee you they have more than a few times hit Deer in spots most here would not consider to be a great shot.I can also be sure they have missed on the first-or second-go more than once. It happens when you take snap shots on quickly moving animals often with a small window.

The one frame showed a particular example. The Deer was hit high spine almost half way back. I doubt if that Deer went very far, but a little further off and chances are it would have been a tough recovery or perhaps and animal that eventually died without.

While they have made more than their share of one shot kills, they also hunt in a manner that a kill often comes about from more or less eventually breaking an animal down with multiple shots vs exact precise shooting.

Can't remember ever seeing them doing the high fives, which is something I disdain. In fact I prefer to walk up to a killed animal without anyone else being around.

I think few here would say the Benoits have disdain for the Deer they kill, yet from the way they hunt, you can bet money every shot isn't dead center perfect and some never find the mark. Yet they keep shooting until they no longer have anything to shoot at.

Just throwing some thoughts out onto the screen and I'm sure some will think the way the Benoits hunt is disdainful, based on where the bullets may sometimes land. I don't happen to be one of them.

Thought-provoking post, Harry. Once again, I brought up the word "disdain," and it wasn't in reference to the OP, it was a response to Ringman on the use of the word "respect."

Disdain isn't as strong a word as contempt, it just means "not worthy of consideration." Should an elk be worthy of consideration? Is an elk more worthy than a coyote? Lots of people (myself included) would think nothing of taking a low-percentage shot at a coyote but wouldn't do the same with an elk. Because we value elk more than coyotes. Most people do. That's why it costs so much for a NR to hunt elk but not a coyote.

As far as the Benoits, I think the comparison is apples and oranges. They developed their style of hunting to fit the animals and the cover they hunt. They track and then shoot moving animals because that's the best way to kill deer where they hunt. And yes, they might miss the first shot or wound a whitetail with a shot but I'd be willing to bet they're successful more often than not because they'e very good at what they do.

If they tried to hunt on their home turf like the guys in the video, we wouldn't be talking about them because no one would know who they are. But if they came out west and saw that bull at 1300 yards, I'm guessing they'd sneak in close and get a high-percentage shot, and it would be high-percentage regardless of whether the bull was moving or not.

I would tend to call it a another parent, who has likely not accomplished much in his life, living vicariously through his kids. Happens all the time. Pathetic all the way around is what I call it.

not..........any big game animal deserves a clean kill.....

Smoke:

Just throwing it out there for discussion.

Off for my WOD which would be trying to stay upright on a snowboard. Fat chance so far. Anyway glad you understand the value of a sense of humor.

Clean kill? There ain't no such thing. Sometimes it is just more palatable than others.

Smokepole,

You’ve seemed to argue that either the elk in this video was shot with disdain (or "near disdain") or was an inanimate long range target or both. To say that a 12 year old was capable of this kind of disdain is certainly reasonable. It is widely accepted that children exhibit sociopathic tendencies. Adults diagnosed with Antisocial Personality Disorder (a diagnosis recently reserved for adults by the DSM V) are often identified as having treated animals with cruelty as a child.

I ‘m not sure this is the case here and I’m pretty sure you don’t either, but it certainly could be. Rather, its seems much more likely that at a distance of 1276 yards for the 12 year old, the elk was an inanimate object. Watching his reaction in the video, it’s hard to tell what’s going on. It certainly should have become real when coming up on the animal during recovery. Again, it's hard to read what’s going on for him, as his father does most of the talking. The boy's only clear reaction is his smile when Dad high-fives him. I read that as a boy being happy that he pleased his father.

I haven't read all of the responses; so, pardon me if I am redundant. To me, three things stuck out like a turd in a punchbowl.

1) After that elk moved, nobody took another range reading. Isn't that an important factor in long range shooting? It is in my book. Especially after a first shot miss. At that point, didn't it just become guesswork?

2) That kid must be on valium. My kids got more excited smoking prairie dogs than that kid did shooting a nice bull. And when they each got their first elk, a cow each, you'd have thought my kids won the lottery. I'm not passing judgment, it just jumped out at me.

3) Holy crap, I've never hunted anything with an entire posse. Even if me and a group of friends that large went hunting together, we all split up as we headed into the field. Heck, that was an entire infantry squad of people.

I noticed that too, and I'm surprised no one else commented on it. Even if you're OK with that shot, not getting a new reading after the elk moved would have to be considered unethical. Ten yards makes a difference at that range.

TheBigSky,

My guess, after being involved in a few hunting videos, is the close-ups of getting the kid ready to shoot, and his shooting, were taken after the actual shot. Which is may be why he doesn't seem excited.

If the first shot was a miss, then the team was subsequently just trying for some sort of hit as opposed to an accurately placed killing shot. One out of three being a killer is crappy shooting in my book and regardless of who they are, they should question their abilities.

Ethics are of course a personal deal, and I know folks that will sling lead great distances hoping for a hit. Some don't mind either if it's 3 animals back and turns out to be a pronghorn fawn. That group's ethics are pretty poor and they'd not be invited into our party.

Wonder how many injured animals they've left out there?

That would make sense. There were probably even several takes taken both of that and the scene at the elk.

Not ethical, even if you can make a 1376 yard shot on a stationary target a 100 times. As many have already pointed out, in the time it takes the bullet to arrive the bull can move a huge distance. I hate to see a young man get his start "hunting" elk in that manner. Maybe shooting elk, but I won't call it hunting. We can disagree, but I am glad my Dad didn't start me that way.