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Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 24,524
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 24,524 |
You're still just eyeballing it with that device. A real level like Innovative Technologies and a verified vertical line down range is fool proof. It makes you wonder with the millions of scoped rifles there are in America, how anyone hits anything at all...
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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 10,426
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 10,426 |
Wow, that's a great unit by Hy Vel. For 99 percent of mounts, that's the ticket. A simple v'block and slot....
I've used combinations of machinist levels, plumb bobs and other ricky-tick set-ups, but that looks fast and sweet.
Up hills slow,
Down hills fast
Tonnage first and
Safety last.
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Posts: 17,527
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 17,527 |
Shrapnel, you aren't a long range shooter. I'm sure your slow twist rifles and canted reticles are suitable for your endeavors.
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Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,098
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,098 |
dogcatcher,
I stand by my post: Any scope-leveling device that depends on a small spirit level isn't going to be all that accurate, except with some luck. The ONLY way such scope-levelers can work is if:
The small level is precisely lined up with the tool.
The surfaces of the rifle's action are absolutely square.
The reticle is absolutely square inside the scope.
All of these things can occur, but the odds are against it, especially with most scopes and factory rifles.
Hi-Vel's tool--which you have obviously not used--eliminates the error of "eyeballing" as much as possible, especially if you learn to use it according to the directions. It squares the RETICLE with the action, regardless of whether the "square" surfaces on the action and scope are square with the reticle.
The ultimate test of reticle squareness with a rifle, of course, is actual shooting, whether doing an extreme elevation adjustment test at 100 yards or more shooting at longer ranges. So far I've had better SHOOTING results with Hi-Vel's tool properly applied, than any tool depending on small spirit levels and the flat surfaces of actions and scopes.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
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Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 4,943
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 4,943 |
dogcatcher,
I stand by my post: Any scope-leveling device that depends on a small spirit level isn't going to be all that accurate, except with some luck. The ONLY way such scope-levelers can work is if:
The small level is precisely lined up with the tool.
The surfaces of the rifle's action are absolutely square.
The reticle is absolutely square inside the scope.
All of these things can occur, but the odds are against it, especially with most scopes and factory rifles.
Hi-Vel's tool--which you have obviously not used--eliminates the error of "eyeballing" as much as possible, especially if you learn to use it according to the directions. It squares the RETICLE with the action, regardless of whether the "square" surfaces on the action and scope are square with the reticle.
The ultimate test of reticle squareness with a rifle, of course, is actual shooting, whether doing an extreme elevation adjustment test at 100 yards or more shooting at longer ranges. So far I've had better SHOOTING results with Hi-Vel's tool properly applied, than any tool depending on small spirit levels and the flat surfaces of actions and scopes. +1. I've been using Hi Vel's reticle device for over two years now, and it's superb. Easy and simple, quite accurate.
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,871
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,871 |
I love simple- because simple works. Every time.
I've had Hi Vel's Reticle Tru device for a couple of years. I've used it to square up scopes on all my rifles and on a lot of my friend's scoped rifles.
Not to mention it's made by a great guy!
Can't beat it...
Last edited by oldslowdog; 03/25/16.
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 15,829
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 15,829 |
You're still just eyeballing it with that device. A real level like Innovative Technologies and a verified vertical line down range is fool proof. Two weeks ago I mounted up a 16x Super chicken on a .300 WM, using Hi-vels device. I was shooting 210 Bergers. I had only put it on paper at 100 yards. I went to a private ranch on a particulary windy day with a couple of guys who are PRS shooters, and the first target engaged was at 1K. Using my Kestrel (applied ballistics) for validation of velocity, and a wind correction, I was able to achieve a 2nd round hit on a USPSA sized plate. The rest of the shots matched the wind calls. That is pretty darn accurate to me. 
THE CHAIR IS AGAINST THE WALL. The Tikka T3 in .308 Winchester is the Glock 19 of the rifle world. The website is up and running!www.lostriverammocompany.com
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Posts: 2,136
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
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Posts: 48,026
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 48,026 |
You're still just eyeballing it with that device. A real level like Innovative Technologies and a verified vertical line down range is fool proof. Two weeks ago I mounted up a 16x Super chicken on a .300 WM, using Hi-vels device. I was shooting 210 Bergers. I had only put it on paper at 100 yards. I went to a private ranch on a particulary windy day with a couple of guys who are PRS shooters, and the first target engaged was at 1K. Using my Kestrel (applied ballistics) for validation of velocity, and a wind correction, I was able to achieve a 2nd round hit on a USPSA sized plate. The rest of the shots matched the wind calls. That is pretty darn accurate to me. You are doing it right and the tool works great!!! I have one as well. Don't pay any attention to dogcatcher, he wouldn't know his azz from a hole in the ground. He has a hard enough time just shooting his rifles, let alone getting any measurable amount of accuracy out of them... ![[Linked Image]](http://i1180.photobucket.com/albums/x401/chiefbsa/IMG_0568_zpsc6ilhfai.jpg)
I try to stick with the basics, they do so well. Nothing fancy mind you, just plain jane will get it done with style. You want to see an animal drop right now? Shoot him in the ear hole. BSA MAGA
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Joined: Jun 2011
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 10,824 |
Hi-Vel's tool--which you have obviously not used--eliminates the error of "eyeballing" as much as possible, especially if you learn to use it according to the directions. It squares the RETICLE with the action, regardless of whether the "square" surfaces on the action and scope are square with the reticle
John, I really can't understand how you can state this, being as astute and reasonable as I think you are. All the device is doing is letting you see where the vertical crosshair is without looking through the scope. From that point, it's a total EYEBALL SITUATION to align the scope with the two points on top and bottom to the centerline of the bore. A level on the action and on top of the turret while sighting at a laser-leveled perfectly vertical line drawn on a shop wall, while far from being perfect, would be much better
The people wringing their hands over Trump's rhetoric don't know what time it is in America.
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 10,086 |
There are several links posted earlier in the thread.
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Campfire Greenhorn
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OP
Campfire Greenhorn
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 97 |
This has been a bunch of knowledge put together. Thanks kindly for all the help.
Jim D
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,098 |
Rick,
Dunno how you came to the conclusion that the Reticle-Tru doesn't involve looking through the scope.
I stated why levels don't work consistently in my post. It's because there's no guarantee of a level surface either on most rifles or scopes, and secondarily because small levels aren't usually square with whatever they're mounted on. Have a whole drawer full of various level-based reticle devices that people have sent for testing. None of them have worked consistently, and some have resulted in reticles being off more than five degrees.
The Reticle-Tru works by aligning the vertical crosshair with the center of the bolt, thus avoiding all the error possible in using at least two levels on small surfaces that may or may not be square anyway.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
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Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 46,024
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 46,024 |
I can't understand how anyone who hasn't used a device knows how well it works.
I wish I was that smart.
Next time I go to Huntsman's, I'm gonna borrow his and use it to see how close mine are to square. Hopefully it won't be an eye-opener, pun not only intended but hilarious.
A wise man is frequently humbled.
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 15,829
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 15,829 |
Hi-Vel's tool--which you have obviously not used--eliminates the error of "eyeballing" as much as possible, especially if you learn to use it according to the directions. It squares the RETICLE with the action, regardless of whether the "square" surfaces on the action and scope are square with the reticle
John, I really can't understand how you can state this, being as astute and reasonable as I think you are. All the device is doing is letting you see where the vertical crosshair is without looking through the scope. From that point, it's a total EYEBALL SITUATION to align the scope with the two points on top and bottom to the centerline of the bore. A level on the action and on top of the turret while sighting at a laser-leveled perfectly vertical line drawn on a shop wall, while far from being perfect, would be much better So combine the laser leveled vertical line (or plumb bob) with the tool being discussed and it would be pretty darn hard to be off. All I can say is that it has saved me a bunch of time. I tend to have folks come over wanting help with their stuff, and usually the first thing I do (if the scope is of OK-decent manufacture) is toss the base and rings, and set them up with Talley lightweights. Then the optic gets set up using Hi-Vel's device. Once that is done, the action goes back in the stock and torqued to spec. This usually fixes the vast majority of non optic related problems.
THE CHAIR IS AGAINST THE WALL. The Tikka T3 in .308 Winchester is the Glock 19 of the rifle world. The website is up and running!www.lostriverammocompany.com
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Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 12,321
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 12,321 |
Shrapnel:
Now you've got me scratching my head. I'm not saying I'm doubting you, I'm just trying to imagine the geometry that would produce that picture.
You realize, of course, I'm going to have to go down to the shamanic secret underground test facility and try to duplicate your results. You also caught me at Turkey Camp, so I'm a good 63 miles and a day or so away from getting there. This is going to bug the snot out of me.
One question come to mind: Who made your boresighter? Mine is a BSA. I can rotate it on the arbor, but I cannot make it turn like that.
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Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 25,861
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 25,861 |
That won't work all the time. This is an exaggeration of a scope that is not level, but you can see that even on 2 different axis, it is possible to align the grid and the crosshair and not even being close to level... ![[Linked Image]](http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee202/bridgershooters/shooting/DSCN2722.jpg) I also am curious how you accomplished that photo. The reticle must be adjusted to the stops on both axis. I have had pretty good results using my cheap Tasco bore sight to level scopes. As long as the reticle is centered and scope is mounted pretty close to the center of the bore, the bore sight will show scope canting as well as any spirit levels I have used. I am not faulting the fine inventions shown earlier in this thread. I am sure they work well. I will say that my experience agrees with Shaman's. If a bore sight is what you have, it will get the job done.
People who choose to brew up their own storms bitch loudest about the rain.
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 38,864
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 38,864 |
John, serious questions - just taking a WAG, what percentage of the scopes on rifles do you figure are perfectly level?
Moving further along, is this one of those things where one person who is very knowledgeable will evaluate a scope as level using his tools/methods and another who is very knowledgeable will say that it isn't, using his tools/methods? Thanks, John
Not a real member - just an ordinary guy who appreciates being able to hang around and say something once in awhile.
Happily Trapped In the Past (Thanks, Joe)
Not only a less than minimally educated person, but stupid and out of touch as well.
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Joined: May 2015
Posts: 708
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 708 |
Seems like this tool will get you more reliable and accurate 'level'.
Been using the small level system, which gets good result if you are not twisting turrets, close enough for hunting out to 300 yds or so.
For the long range game scopes are tested with the tall target.............and a scope level installed once everything is square to level.
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Joined: Jun 2011
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 10,824 |
John,
You misunderstand. I meant the device acts as an external indicator of the position of the vertical crosshair. From there, the user actually has to eyeball what position the scope is in the rings with the top and bottom points on the indicator as related to what he visually estimates is the center of the action or barrel.
While the installer may get lucky or the user has no need for a better level of precision, this device is far from optimal.
To really do it correctly so that everything functions properly in the field, the action has to be perfectly level and the centerline of the scope and the centerline of the rifle’s bore are both exactly in the same vertical plane. Then, dial the elevation knob through it’s entire range while looking through the scope making sure the crosshair’s center never leaves a perfectly vertical plumb line.
The people wringing their hands over Trump's rhetoric don't know what time it is in America.
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