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Rost,

I'm not saying you can't shoot that far, I'm saying you need to chronograph your loads and check your drop charts on paper vs. taking the word of some ancient Mesopotamian clay tablet. [/quote]


I shot a lot of midrange and some lr stuff over the years.

I never used a chrono other than initially to get a feeling of where I was at.

Then I just did what the load told me.

But your point is going by what I see, not what someone tells me.

I"ve seen more than enough to be comfortable in my beliefs.

I'm sorry that you have not. But in the end, even though my job is to spread the word, I will discuss this with folks that have an open mind. Those that have closed minds so to speak, have to fend for themselves.

I've often said, the tenants of "Christianity" basically teach good things, to repent and be sorry and to believe. To be a better person.

You really can't go wrong with taht even if the belief in the end was in nothing.

Beats the hell out of folks that think they die, have no responsibility and could care less what good they do for earth and others along the way.

Worse yet those that believe that you and I should be dead since we dont' believe the other name...

It's pretty easy to find a source with lots of links to the research, you don't have to dig very deep:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moses#Historicity

Historicity
The current scholarly consensus is that Moses is a figure of legend, not of history.[13] Some scholars, like Frank Cross, consider it possible that a "Moses group" might have made a transit along the route from Egypt to Edom around the 13th-12th centuries.[27] No Egyptian sources mention Moses or the events of Exodus-Deuteronomy, nor has any archaeological evidence been discovered in Egypt or the Sinai wilderness to support the story in which he is the central figure.[28] The story of his being placed in a wicker basket covered with tar and pitch and left among reeds on the waters of the Nile (Exodus 2:3) picks up a familiar motif in Near Eastern mythological accounts of the ruler who rises from humble origins. Thus Sargon of Akkad's Sumerian account of his origins runs;
My mother, the high priestess, conceived; in secret she bore me
She set me in a basket of rushes, with bitumen she sealed my lid
She cast me into the river which rose over me.[29]

Memorial of Moses, Mount Nebo, Jordan
The tradition of Moses as a lawgiver and culture hero of the Israelites may go back to the 7th-century sources of the Deuteronomist, which might conserve earlier traditions. Kenneth Kitchen, a solitary voice among British Egyptologists,[30] argues that there is an historic core behind the Exodus, with Egyptian corvée labour exacted from Hebrews during the imperialist control exercised by the Egyptian Empire over Canaan from the time of the Thutmosides down to the revolt against Merenptah and Rameses III.[31] William Albright believed in the essential historicity of the biblical tales of Moses and the Exodus, accepting however that the core narrative had been overlaid by legendary accretions.[32] Biblical minimalists such as Philip R. Davies and Niels Peter Lemche regard all biblical books, and the stories of an Exodus, united monarchy, exile and return as fictions composed by a social elite in Yehud in the Persian period or even later, the purpose being to legitimize a return to indigenous roots.[33]
Despite the imposing fame associated with Moses, no source mentions him until he emerges in texts associated with the Babylonian exile.[32] A theory developed by Cornelius Tiele in 1872, which had proved influential, and still held in regard by modern scholars, argued that Yahweh was a Midianite god, introduced to the Israelites by Moses, whose father-in-law Jethro was a Midianite priest.[34] It was to such a Moses that Yahweh reveals his real name, hidden from the Patriarchs who knew him only as El Shaddai,[35] Against this view is the modern consensus that most of the Israelites were native to Palestine.[36] Martin Noth argued that the Pentateuch uses the figure of Moses, originally linked to legends of a Transjordan conquest, as a narrative bracket or late redactional device to weld together 4 of the 5, originally independent, themes of that work.[32][37] Manfred Görg,[38] and Rolf Krauss[39] the latter in a somewhat sensationalist manner,[40] have suggested that the Moses story is a distortion or transmogrification of the historical pharaoh Amenmose (ca. 1200 BCE), who was dismissed from office and whose name was later simplified to msy (Mose). Aidan Dodson regards this hypothesis as "intriguing, but beyond proof."[41]
The Exodus narrative, which in traditional chronology begins with the impossible date of 1496 BCE,[42] itself has resisted numerous attempts to verify it or ground it in archaeological digs, which have been abandoned as a "fruitless pursuit," since the evidence points to an indigenous origin for Israelites.[43] Attempts to locate the yam sūp (Reed sea/Red Sea) as described in Exodus have failed.[44] The figure of 600,000 adult males described in Exodus 12:37, or 603,550 at Exodus 38:26, would imply a total population of Israelites in flight through the desert for 40 years of 2 to 2.5 million people, when the total population of Egypt at the time was 3 to 4.5 million. Had such a catastrophic demographic outflow taken place, it would have been recorded in Egyptian writings.[42][44][45][46][47]
The name King Mesha of Moab has been linked to that of Moses:Mesha also is associated with narratives of an exodus and a conquest, and several motifs in stories about him are shared with the Exodus tale and that regarding Israel's war with Moab (2 Kings:3). Moab rebels against oppression, like Moses, leads his people out of Israel, as Moses does from Egypt, and his first-born son is slaughtered at the wall of Kir-hareseth as the firstborn of Israel are condemned to slaughter in the Exodus story, "an infernal passover that delivers Mesha while wrath burns against his enemies".[48]
An Egyptian version of the tale that crosses over with the Moses story is found in Manetho who, according to the summary in Josephus, wrote that a certain Osarseph, Heliopolitan priest, became overseer of a band of lepers, when Amenophis, following indications by Amenhotep, son of Hapu, had all the lepers in Egypt quarantined in order to cleanse the land so that he might see the gods. The lepers are bundled into Avaris, the former capital of the Hyksos, where Osarseph prescribes for them everything forbidden in Egypt, while proscribing everything permitted in Egypt. They invite the Hyksos to reinvade Egypt, rule with them for 13 years – Osarseph then assumes the name Moses - and are then driven out.[49]

An intelligent person might want to know that, yes. A religious person might attribute it to God, based on faith in their doctrine...

None of this really matters much to me other than as an interesting debate; folks believe what they believe and that's fine by me. Where it does really matter to me is when the practicers of religion try to bring it into the public policy realm. That chaps my ass.

Or when people attempt to use their religion as an excuse to attempt to control others.

Religion is about control?! No WAY!


Rost I like your post and can't disagree. That's what I think is GOOD about religion.

However, ask yourself this- I'm not a believer, but I get up every day and do the right thing.... why would I do that? What in MY philosophy would lead me to live that way? Because it's not by accident, nor am I inherently "good", particularly.

PS- when you move to AK, can I come up and visit your igloo and have pleasant theological discussions and whack some critters?

I shot a lot of midrange and some lr stuff over the years.

I never used a chrono other than initially to get a feeling of where I was at.

Then I just did what the load told me.

But your point is going by what I see, not what someone tells me.

I"ve seen more than enough to be comfortable in my beliefs.

I'm sorry that you have not. But in the end, even though my job is to spread the word, I will discuss this with folks that have an open mind. Those that have closed minds so to speak, have to fend for themselves.

I've often said, the tenants of "Christianity" basically teach good things, to repent and be sorry and to believe. To be a better person.

You really can't go wrong with taht even if the belief in the end was in nothing.

Beats the hell out of folks that think they die, have no responsibility and could care less what good they do for earth and others along the way.

Worse yet those that believe that you and I should be dead since we dont' believe the other name...[/quote]

Rost,

As I've said before, I do not consider all religions, or all Christians equal. What matters is how people choose to permit their religion/philosophy to inform their actions. I enjoy the debate with you, but like Scot, your really "not the Christian I'm looking for". Your Christianity seem to have minimal negative effects on your understanding of THIS reality. In addition, you do not seem to place so much emphasis on the next life that you neglect this one, nor the other people in it. Overall, you don't appear to be on the eye raising side of the equation.

Lemme get to AK first. LOL

RE what makes you good? I dunno, but without some form of responsibility, why would I worry about what I do?

I"m sure my education from young up, in religion, and even though we don't go to a church currently, we still strongly believe, is part of the reason thats been ingrained in me to help. Help with about anything and generally I don't want anything in return.

Likely why I volunteer so much.

You start to look at city life these days and we are heading the wrong direction quickly and because of no reason to act with responsibility and compassion to your fellow beings.

Whether you like religion or not, it tries its best to better society, and thats not a bad thing.

Hanging around a bunch of medical folks and I think thats often why I'm exposed on our calls and runs and such, to the fact that there has to be something else.

And if you think dead can't come back to life.... I only have to look at the dead seeds I put in my garden every spring....

Rost,

As I've said before, I do not consider all religions, or all Christians equal. What matters is how people choose to permit their religion/philosophy to inform their actions. I enjoy the debate with you, but like Scot, your really "not the Christian I'm looking for". Your Christianity seem to have minimal negative effects on your understanding of THIS reality. In addition, you do not seem to place so much emphasis on the next life that you neglect this one, nor the other people in it. Overall, you don't appear to be on the eye raising side of the equation.

[/quote]

I don't like folks that stir the pot just to stir either, although thats not exactly what you are doing either totally.

FWIW I do believe in the next life and its very important to me in many ways.

But I also realize that I may have some names wrong and some things not exactly like I've heard or read... but I still believe in being good and being rewarded and being able to make this run again but in a perfect life next time.

Eye raising doesn't accomplish nearly as much as quiet conversations... IMHO...

The ministers that pound the pulpit and preach hell fire and brimstone.... I don't listen to them a second time.... but I damn sure now am totally clear there is hellfire and brimstone.

You say tries to make society better, but perhaps we should ask not about it's proclaimed intent, but it's actual effects. Organized religion has gone to great measures to maintain it's dominance, suppressing idea's that could threaten their position. You have to look no further then this very thread to see the YEC's and the effects of blind faith on the willingness of some to comprehend science. Look how it's used in the Middle East. Many of then are not using it to "make society better", but to maintain their own positions of power.

But I'm not aware of you doing stupid things as a result of this belief.

We don't need to take these accident victims to the hospital, just say a few prayers, they will be fine.....naaaa, that does't sound like you.

Thanks for overtaking and ruining a great thread, again. You just can't help taking a shlt on any thread dealing with religion or afterlife can you?

He's a real gem isn't he? At least he's consistent. I put that loser on ignore months ago.

AS, AS, why is this eating on you so?

A darn good question. Glad you asked that.

I hear crickets...

Ed

if you don't want to discuss your faith, don't post about it on an outdoors forum where there are different opinions on the subject...

How,

By taking you out of your comfort zone and making you think?

There is no doubt at all, in my mind, that in "organized" religion, the devil shows up as humans that get involved.

We are supposed to keep an eye out for that and realize and sort it out due to that.

Its why at one place we went, a couple of ministers were fired at times...

And it caused us when the locals did not see it, to change churches for some time.

BTW God taught me, he taught the docs and nurses etc.....

you know about the one where he sent a rescue truck to a flooding house, a boat and a helicopter before the folks drowned.

You do have to see, you cannot be blind.

Thats why I"m going with the ER ride... because God provided folks trained to take care of this stuff.

I"m not a scientologist waiting on things to happen, we have to help ourselves along.

Does that mean that if you are not ready to argue incessantly you should keep your mouth shut and never discuss anything in public?

I'd say that was coercion. That ideology is meant to deter people you may disagree with from having a conversation with like-minded people. If you don't agree, STFU and move on.

Antelope Sniper and a couple of others, such as yourself, don't like the subject, so you try to make it as uncomfortable as possible for people to have a discussion.

THAT, is juvenile. Childish, not child-like.

If you really don't like the subject, ignore the post or put the poster on "ignore", that way you won;t be tortured with another person's epistemology.

No one is holding a gun to your head and making you read the posts. You have no valid point.

Ed