The "Heaven is real..." thread got me to thinking about this. I know it pizzes some folks off when metaphysical topics come up, but it's something others have a genuine interest in. So to the former, I say move along, I'm not preaching at you.

I mentioned in the other thread that there is an outstanding book by Dr. Eben Alexander called "Proof of Heaven" in which he describes his near-death experience a few years ago. He had overwhelming bacterial meningitis, which basically ate up his cerebral cortex as he lay in a coma for a week. In that week he went to Heaven, and when he miraculously awoke with a healing brain, he realized he had to find a way to tell the world what he had seen and heard.

The key feature of his story, the kernel that convinces me as a physician and a scientist that his story must be true, is that he could not have possibly "dreamed" or hallucinated his experience. He had no functional brain because of the overwhelming infection.

Whether you're a believer or not, Christian or other faith, this book is worth reading. It's powerful.

But what I really want to talk about here is not Heaven, but Hell. I know it's not a popular concept, but I am convinced Hell is real, and I am convinced that people have been there and have come back. I cite two examples from my own experience.

In the first case, I was a medical student studying under a Cardiologist who was the first doctor I ever heard say he believed in Hell and had proof of it. He had a patient go into V/fib in his office one day, and he started CPR and got the defibrillator. The patient opened his eyes after the first shock and screamed, "I AM IN HELL!". The doc said the man's terror was real, and chilling. The patient coded several more times, and each time he came back he screamed in unholy terror at what he was experiencing. Eventually they got him back, and the patient was able to relate his experience to my Cardiology professor. As it happens, that professor had several other patients describe similar visits to Hell during their heart attacks. But that's third-hand information, I realize.

Since then I have seen a similar thing happen several times, and one instance I will relate here. First, though, I should explain what happens when someone goes into the lethal arrhythmia that we call ventricular fibrillation (V/fib).

You can watch V/fib start on a cardiac monitor, if you have one attached to the patient at the time. What has always puzzled me (and I'm not the only physician who's noted this) is that the patient ALWAYS loses consciously immediately upon onset of V/fib. The brain has 7 seconds' worth of oxygen in it, so the person is not passing out from lack of circulation. They lose consciousness instantly upon onset of the arrhythmia, and you can see the person die before your eyes. I've seen it hundreds of times, it's very very real. You then defibrillate the patient, and they wake up immediately upon restoration of normal sinus rhythm. The body jumps at the electric shock, and sometimes the patient will groan, and you clearly see the life come back into them.

But on several occasions the return to life is dramatically different. I'll tell you the one that sticks in my mind most clearly.

I was working the night shift in my ER in the winter of 2004. It was a relatively quiet night. The night nurse was Mark, who I had worked with for many years. In addition to being a paramedic and a great ER nurse, Mark was an ordained evangelical minister, and we had interesting conversations about theology and such on quiet nights. Me being Catholic, we had some lively doctrinal disagreements from time to time, but we had great respect for each other.

Anyways, about 10 pm a 44-year-old man came in with his wife, saying he had developed bad indigestion shortly after eating a late supper at a local restaurant. He was a big strapping muscular guy with a terrific sandy-blond mustache. (Funny the things you recall about people...) Cigarette smoker, social drinker, no history of heart disease, hypertension, or hyperlipidemia. But he looked awfully pale and sweaty when he walked in, so Mark did the smart thing and put him in the cardiac room and put him on a monitor. He called me in immediately upon seeing the wave form on the monitor. I came in and saw big "tombstones" in Lead II (a positive sign for myocardial infarction, blockage of one of the main arteries supplying the heart). I told Mark we needed an EKG, and told the ER tech to get the AMI box so we could inject him with tenecteplase (clot-buster) as soon as possible.

Mark started to apply the EKG leads, but before he was done the monitor alarmed and the man died. Like I said, it's instantly recognizable: the life simply goes out and the body sinks down on the bed lifelessly. Mark and I both recognized it instantly, and as I reached for the defibrillator Mark slapped defib pads on the man's chest and connected them. I went straight to 360 joules (phugg this 200-300-360 joules bullsh!t), charged the machine, and delivered the shock. The man's body arched up like usual, and he came back to life with a superhumanly loud scream of agony and terror, his eyes bugging out of his head like he'd seen Satan himself. He couldn't speak, and trembled so violently he shook the bed. I looked at the monitor and he was in normal sinus rhythm.

There was no time to really "debrief" the man. We had to get his EKG (which showed an acute anterior MI) and get the clot-busting drugs into him, lidocaine bolus and infusion to stabilize his heart rhythm, and so forth. Mark is a superb nurse, and I think that was close to the world speed record for doing all the things you need to do to treat a bad MI with V/fib.

It was maybe 15 minutes later that Mark and I stepped away from the patient, and I said to him, "You know where that guy went, don't you?" and Mark said, "I've heard about it, but I've never seen it!".

Well, I told Mark he was the ordained minister, and suggested that he use the next 15 minutes using his pastoral skills alongside his nursing skills while we waited for the chopper.

He did so. And afterwards he told me that the patient admitted he had gone to Hell. I won't share details of the man's story, but it was convincing to me, having seen his state of terror when he came back to life.

I've seen two other cases like that one in my career, and in discussions with other ER docs have heard of many more. I am convinced this is as close to Proof of Hell as you can get.

If you choose to disregard or disbelieve this, that is your choice. But if anyone reading this has been sitting on the fence and wondering, I suggest you take this anecdote for what it's worth and do some research on your own in the field of near-death experiences. Not everyone has a happy experience as Eben Alexander did. It might prove a good motivation to get to know the Lord.

You go to heaven for the climate, hell for the company..

Absolutely no doubt in my mind about the reality of Heaven and Hell. Thanks for sharing.

Funny what running current through a body will do.

None in mine either.

Hell sounds like Texas.

Did you ever inquire as to why they were they sent to Hell?

Was it an act they committed or were they non-believers?

Pretty serious stuff right there Doc. I for one believe it.

Thanks for sharing. I think!

Active unbelievers.

==============

You mean like a Q&A session towards the end of the bender?

I'd be interested to know what it was that sent him to hell...
Besides for obviously not being right with God that is.

I go to TX for both!

So ...

Did they have a change of heart after the experience?

Were they democrats?

If not, then you have the living definition of a fool.

The man I related the story about did. Mark led him thru the Cliff's Notes version of the salvation scriptures, led him in the Sinner's Prayer, and the man was totally different after his heart-to-heart with Mark and the Lord. The wife was in tears, and told Mark that she'd been praying for her husband's soul for years and he had been totally hard-hearted toward God for years and years, until that night.

Nor about which one I am working towards to taking up residence in someday.

Oddly enough, they all were...

good story.

Me too

I don't understand it

but

I don't doubt it

Snake

I think you missed it.

I just wish I could get past the "big business" attitude of most of the major religions/churches. I believe in God, I just don't believe in the religions as they are run today.

Heaven or hell

I'm thinken you can't miss both...


T

Thanks for the writeup..very interesting..


I hope when and if I have one, my Dr. goes straight to 360...

Snake River Marksman,


Being a part of organized religion will not prevent God from sending you to Hell. God gets real edgy about folks rejecting His Gift of His Son. You can not be good enough to get past God's anger of you rejecting His Gift of His Son. Jesus is a Free Gift to those who ask God to send His Son into their lives. While you're at it, ask to be filled with His Holy Spirit.

There is not always a feeling accompanying this prayer. Sometimes there is. The feeling is not what saves; accepting God's Gift of His Son saves from the bondage of sin now and eternal punishment later.

I know it isn't a laughing matter, but that made me chuckle!

I'm sure 360 joules would have that effect on me as well.


Interesting read
Near death experiences

Nevermind...



Travis

The Holy Bible is a most valuable source for the information in which you are interested. The parts I like most dwell more on Salvation and the ways we should live, but the info you seek also is there in clear terms. You need not take the word of any human.

DocRocket - thanks for this insightful post. I cannot remember a time whan I doubted the reality of Heaven and Hell - or the absence of any other space between the two - but always seem interested in the experiences of those who may know more keenly.

" . . . Jesus is a Free Gift to those who ask God to send His Son into their lives. . ."

So I understand you to say that receiving this Free Gift (Jesus) is conditional, correct? You have to do something? Correct?

So exactly what do you have to do? Is there a specific "word formula" someone has to recite to receive this free gift? If so what is it and where did you discover it? What about people who cannot speak? If this "free gift" is really "free," you would think that it would be unconditional.

I firmly believe that every dang one of us is going to find out some day, all about either Hell, or Heaven.
Really does not make much difference in the meantime, about the metaphysics of it all.

One does not simply have to do something **bad** to earn their spot in hell.

**Good** people go there everyday.

People think good works, clean living, rescuing dogs from the pound, not ever getting a speeding ticket , etc and all that happy ass hippy jive will get them into the presence of God at the punch of their ticket.

I have also read Dr. Eben Alexander's book "Proof of Heaven", but it has nothing to do with me being a believer (in both heaven and hell).

The Lord has spoken to me on a few occasions, and I am happy to be saved by Grace. I have human fears of death, but I can't wait to be in heaven (but in no rush to leave this earth).

Oddly enough, as the link you provided states, defibrillation doesn't cause such reactions. I've defibrillated hundreds of patients in my career, and other than this case none of my revived patients reacted as this man did. Two others related a NDE trip to hell after resuscitation, but they did not awaken screaming.

Again, I recommend Dr. Alexander's book to anyone who is seriously curious. He gives a number of citations to good sources in the NDE literature, which are worth the price of the book right there in my view.

You simply accept God and our Savior Jesus Christ. No need for words. Once you accept Him, your life will change because you will want it to change.

They (hundreds) must fall into the 90% or you have heavenly clientele.

Nobody sends you to hell, you CHOOSE to go their of your own accord, and God simply allows you to deal with the consequences of that choice

Shawn

Sadly, my career number of V/fib saves is not high. Any ER doc who's done this as long as I have will tell you the same. We resuscitate about 5% of V/fib cases when they code in the hospital. On the street, the number is less than 1%. So yes, I HOPE I have a large heavenly population of former patients awaiting my arrival!!!

Thanks for this Doc. My late father in law was one who "died" and came back a changed man. Said he was in Hell. He did become much more of a believer after this. Spent many hours talking with our preacher. He died a few years later a changed man much more at peace with himself and his future.
I too read the Alexander book and recommend it completely.

Forgot...one of Mom's brothers must have had some sort of
likewise experience. He had a heart episode of some sort and
later would not speak of it. But he did change his life.

Good thread, thanks Doc.

Doc, I posted this link in the thread about Heaven.

All Nurses.com/what's your best ghost story?

Your story above reminded me of this post from the link above. I'm not saying it's true, but it has some similarities to the stories people have told about dying and going to Hell before being resuscitated.-


My creepiest and scariest ghost story for me happened about a year ago. It really was more of a posession than a ghost story. I was helping another nurse with a patient that had lived a very hard life. It had numerous things going on with him from cardiac to renal failure. You name it, he had it going on. This man was very much afraid to die. Every time his heart monitor beeped, he would just go into a rage screaming, "Don't let me die! Don't let me die!" The other nurse and I found out why he didn't want to die. About 0200 his cardiac monitor starts alarming V-Tach. We both rush into the room. I am pulling the crash cart behing me. When I get to the room, the other nurse is completely white. This man was sitting about 2 inches above the bed and was laughing. His whole look completely changed. His eyes just had a look of pure evil on them and he had this evil smile on his face. He laughed at us and said, " You stupid b****es aren't going to let me die will you?" and he laughed again. We were kinda frozen. I did reach up and hit the Code Blue button and when I did the man went into V-fib. He crashed back onto the bed. We started coding him, but after 20 minutes it was called. 5 minutes after the code was called several of the code team is in the room cleaning up when this man sits straight up in the bed and says, " You let him die. Too bad." and then begins laughing. The man collapsed back to the bed. We heard a horrible, agonizing scream ( actually every patient in the unit that night commented on the scream), and then you could hear "don't let me die" being whispered throughout the unit. Everyone of the nurses that night was pale and scared. No body went anywhere by themselves. By morning the whispers of "don't let me die" were gone. The night shift nurses had a prayer service in the break room before we left for home and then we all had nightmares for weeks.

Doc...

Great read. Thanks for posting.

I've seen both sides of death, the saved and unsaved. The saved one was my wife. She died peacefully and smiling. The unsaved was my brother. Many of us in the family tried to reach him but failed. When he died, he was alone in the hospital. I saw him 30 min later and I've never seen such a look of horror on anyone, living or dead. I'm convinced that he saw Satan as he went out.

Okay Scott. That is really downright freaking creepy man!

David, check out some of the other stories at the link. Some of them are as warm as that one is chilling and some of them are just wacky.

I think that thread runs about 240 pages and I've read a little over half of them over the last several months.

Thanks for sharing. I got saved over a quarter of a century ago and know I'm going to Heaven. I was scared of Hell and that's why I trusted Jesus as my Lord and Savior. I have no doubt of the reality of both places. I KNOW where I want to go and am glad I can, through no ability of my own, just through God and my trust in Him, Jesus Christ.

Nor will it prevent him from accepting you into heaven.

Organized religion (or disorganized, FTM) is made up of people. People are fallible even when they are trying hard to follow Biblical principals. That doesn't mean that all organized religion is bad (although some are clearly out to lunch) - it's just not always what it could be.

http://www.epubbud.com/read.php?g=4QUM7VPH&p=0

I read The Screwtape Letters as a teenager..... Looks like this is a free online version of it..... Helped me make better choices..... Let go of some of the "God wants to take fun stuff away..... Which sucks" to more of a " He wants me to avoid the bait being set to draw me into a trap by an Evil with a desire to devour me....." Kind of view point.

I loved the intro quote about satan being a proud spirit and not being able to bear being mocked..... I find myself often thinking along the lines of "Nice try there Skippy..... Now piss off.... ".

Just downloaded Proof of Heaven on Audible..... Great listen so far.... I'm set up with the Dillion 550 and components to load 2500 rounds of .38 Special ammo..... Good way to spend an afternoon......

The Screwtape Letters are awesome. My wife and I got to see the stage adaptation performed last year. Good stuff.

You are not 'sent' to Hell, you go because of your choice in the rejection of Salvation made possible by the Savior.

The only ones in Hell are the ones that heard that they must believe on the Lord, Jesus Christ, and they have not admitted they were sinners and wanted to be saved. Pure and simple.

It's the simplicity of salvation that confuses so many who think they must 'change' and start going to church, doing good works, etc. There is nothing you must do or can apart from what is told in Scripture.

^^^^This^^^^

One of my best friends fell from a tree and broke his back (he's been wheelchair bound since).

They had to restart him twice. Once at the scene and once in the hospital. He had a near death experience during one of the episodes (I think it was at the hospital but I'm not sure). Said he felt as though the was being embraced by the most warm, comfortable, entity imaginable.

He wasn't a Christian and still isn't. He's not sure if it was God that embraced him, but he doesn't fear death any more.

Yep. How can we ever do enough? How can we match what Jesus did? He allowed Himself to be crucified while we were still sinning! Heaven bound, not by works but by His grace. Luckily! All we have to do is accept Him. How awesome!

Can I get an amen?

AMEN!

You can go to church and not give them any money. Just sayin'.

Not only that, they pass around a plate that you can take money out of.



Travis

+1

I didn't realize we were supposed to put money in those. There goes my reason for going to church every Sunday.

Only a fool says in his heart there is no God. Plenty of them around here, and I ain't one of them. Zero doubt in my mind.

Excellent stuff Doc...thank you sir!

+1

A person can always find a way to explain things away if they so desire.
Sometimes having an open mind and actually doing some research could change those minds, but its their loss regardless.

Way I look at it, err on the safe side ain't gonna hurt you any...

I completely understand your outlook. I also dont believe in the way the church is run today, its more of a buisness than a church. Im a believer but have a hard time with orginized church. I do like home chuches because you don't have the MONEY issues the control issues and its more personal. Its something you might like.

I do believe your stories. I haven't been to hell but have felt a little bit of heaven when my ankle was healed at church one night. It got warm then tingley and then the pain left. Some people don't believe and want to argue but a man with an experience is NEVER at the mercy of a man with a argument.

I heard Hell's a big place?

Interesting thread Doc, sure makes one think about his own mortality and beyond.

Maybe if you aren't a believer in The Christ, every thing you do is wrong.

Other than that, it's said dying will do it.

Maybe if you aren't a believer in the Buddha, everything you do is wrong�..

Maybe if you are a believer in the buddha everything you do is wrong.

Maybe hell is only filled with Christians.

Maybe aliens will come down and give us all an anal probe.

Does anybody else ever wonder if maybe Lucifer was just behind the curve in marketing?





Travis

TAK will be in heaven.



Travis

So you would let those sinners prevent you from following Him (doing His bidding) and setting an example for others?

Didn't he invent matches?

I was married to Satan's sister for years.

At least the food is good.

I always wondered where she went when I divorced her�I knew it was to a younger man.

Ahead of the curve in throwing parties.. Ever see that mofo dance?

Maybe you should discuss that with Him. Maybe He lied about that 'great gulf' He wrote about in The Bible, but I doubt it.

I'm busy right now.



Travis

Snork!

Since HE sat down and penned the entire thing you would have thunk HE would have had a Mac book and a printing press the help get the word out.

I was making a suggestion to Steel. No doubt, you are beyond the power of suggestion.

Nope, most wouldn't read enough to get the difference between a Pharisee and a Christian anyway.

Not a chance, only those who thought they were Christians, maybe. Wide is the gate that leads to destruction. Many will pass through it, those that actually/really know God will not. It's not for me to judge though. I just know who won't be there.......

Ask and you will receive.

+1

Thanks for the post.

uh? Which place?

God know your heart OrangeOkie. No need to outwardly "speak". As eyeball says, all you have to do is "ask", and mean it. Then the way you live should reflect what you asked for.

You're wasting your time if you sit in the front pew---sit in the back ones.

Mickey,

I'm stupid. Not [bleep]' stupid.





Travis

fixed it for ya travesty.

Thanks, Doc.

Maybe this, maybe that - conjecture can be interesting and enjoyable - but there comes a moment where "maybe" just won't cut it. And, unending moments after that.

How to explain the many NDE that relate a happy, comforting light/presence by people who make no pretense of believing or following 'god'?

Thanks, Doc.

I don't know, man. I just don't know. But Alexander's NDE experience as described in "Proof Of Heaven" doesn't say a thing about Jesus, and says some things that suggest our human understanding of how it works is flawed at best.

I believe what I believe according to the best studying and praying I can do, but I'm open to whatever God has in mind, and I ain't gonna argue with him when I kneel before him.

"I am the way, and the truth, and the life..."

Notice it doesn't say "like" or "similar to". No simile there.
He is.
So, if a man unacquainted with the historical Jesus seeks the way, the truth & the life, he is seeking Jesus.

Bingo!!!

BarryC has encapsulated the concept that has been elucidated at great length by Irenaeus, Jerome, and Aquinas, not to mention more recent leading lights such as G.K.Chesterton and C.S. Lewis.

,...not to mention Albert Hoffman

Jesus speaks to his disciples, as he takes leave of them:

And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you forever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

At that day ye shalt know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
_____________________________________________

This promise constitutes the heart of my Christian beliefs and my call to natural-scientific research: we will attain to knowledge of the universe through the spirit of truth, and thereby to understanding of our being one with the deepest, most comprehensive reality, God.

--Albert Hoffman

You may believe the sun rises in the West and sets in the East, but that don't make it so. Get it?

I don't really believe in the stories of the people who claim to have been and returned to either heaven or hell. There really isn't any Biblical precedent for it. In fact, it is told us that there is a "great gulf" between people there and us. I do however, believe in deception and beings who are trying to deceive us. We don't/can't always understand their intentions but the Bible is clear they exist.

the Politichinians.

Tell ya what I believe.

I believe that all of this stuff that we consider reality is just a small fragment of the big picture,...a small fragment that we are able to perceive with the few rudimentary senses available to us.

Doc,

Thats all very interesting. Thanks for posting.

And mojo has an interesting point. If there are those who are non believers still having the same common NDE experience believers have, PERHAPS the NDE TYPE (either i was in heaven, i went to hell) depends on what is happening physically to the body at time of death, each heaven or hell experience just the body's response to the physical duress of the specific dying event.

Weve been dying for millennia, and the images and notions of heaven and hell may just be the verbalizations of those who have come back from specific types of dying events.

Strokes make body respond one way, and heart attacks another- one is a hell experience, and the other is a heaven experience.

All very very interesting.

As has been explained, the gulf you speak of was between hell and heaven, not between the living world and heaven.

Resuscitation techniques are only recently developed. Prior to that, folks who died stayed dead.

Perhaps, but there is still no Biblical precedent for it. I don't really need people going to either to convince me they are real places and as was told in the same story where the aforesaid "gulf" was discussed, people have the prophets and the scriptures. If they don't believe them, stories of miraculous returns from heaven or hell will not make a lasting and changing impression.

Horse hockey.

Im sure plenty of people have had diabetic seizures, or mild heart attacks or whatever unknown ailment before modern medicine, and black outs and laid there or got chucked in a hole cause they thot they were dead way way back only to report what they experienced once conscious again.

Cmon!

Doctor Rocket,

Very compelling. Thanks for posting.

Johnny Cash talked about being at the bedside of his brother as he died. His brother was a believing saved Pentecostal Christian. Johnny talked about his brother describing the singing of the angels.

By the grace of God enabling me, I refuse to fear any man on earth, but I do fear the Living God. His grace is sufficient for me but I still tremble at His word and at His Name. Wretched man that I am; I am cast entirely upon the grace of Christ and the merits of His redeeming blood.

Well said. Can't argue with that.

"Thought they were dead" is quite a bit different from being dead.

You have to come back from the dead to report, Hawk. That doesn't take modern medicine to do always, and folks through the millennium didnt know any different.

"Non responsive" was probably dead to them

It seemed dead to observers, but dead is different than seemingly dead.

PS Jesus resurrected actually dead folks, but their accounts of their experiences (if there were any) aren't included in the Gospels.

you look dead in your avatar.

I remember the passage in the bible where Max explains that Jesus was only mostly dead and that mostly dead is still partly alive.
no...
wait...
that was a different fairy tale.

WillARights... I can't argue definitively against you, so I won't try. All I can give you is my subjective and admittedly flawed human perspective...

But that being said, I've seen people die, and I mean a LOT of people. More'n I care to try to count up. And I've seen many more people go "unresponsive". There is a world of difference. Anyone who lives and works in our field will tell you that you can see/feel the difference.

I cain't prove it, scientifically or otherwise. But the difference is real.

No offense taken or intended, I'm just sayin'.

By the Grace of God, did Lazarus not return from the dead?

Yeah.

I would refer any readers of whimsical temperament to read "Lamb", BY Chris Moore. It's a fictional account but based, as Moore writes, on the written record of the gospels and the Jewish histories. Fascinating and eminently readable book that takes nothing from Jesus' divinity and adds the human touch so often lacking in religious treatments of the Life of Christ.

Not for mainstream evangelical/fundos, I might add. Heads might explode.

Yeah, he did... and as his friends said, "Lord, he already stinketh!"

But Laz neglected to write down his experiences for posterity, hence the post-modernist dismissal of his miraculous resurrection at Jesus' command.

I mean, dude, if he had REALLy been raised from the dead, he woulda got a book contract at LEAST, if not movie rights? Right? RIGHT??

I mean, am I not frikin' RIGHT??? Pshaw!!

I rest my case, dude.

Yeah, you might try a little harder to keep 'em straight there, Wormtongue... I mean Ringworm... y'know, engage brain before engaging keyboard, that kinda thing...

Yup, and stinkin dead is seriously dead. Those that know this, know this.

Doc R.

Haven't read all 12 pages of the thread but a great story and some good information. I'm not an overly religiously guy, but believe in heaven and hell as sure as I'm sitting here.

There's much that can't always be explained, like Blue's thread on angles, but that sure doesn't mean it's not real.

Cheers!

Right Doc, but you are an educated man in modern medicine. Not a caveman, or even a person in 1000AD, when medicine as we know it was not as advanced.

The notions or heaven and hell are not modern. So millennium old ideas of heaven and hell, and modern medicines ideas and knowledge of unresponsive and dead are not of the same age, or equivalent.

The notions had to come from somewhere. Just speculating on my part. Not an argument. I happen to be a believer, just wondering about Mojos point of a universal NDE experience, regardless of belief, ad wondering why that would be.

They weren't Dimocraps. They weren't liars.

I totally hear ya, WAR. Who knows WTF went on back in the day? I expect folks got burned at the stake for giving credence to stuff I've said today here on the innanet, or for what Eben Alexander said in his book.

Heterodoxy has never been a popular career choice for folks who want to retire in Boca Raton.

Anyways, I just carry on and tell what I've seen and what I know. I'm not that much different from that dang caveman, truth to tell, and I can't come up with a contradictory argument to Mojo's point, either.

I don't believe I'm required or called to. Food for thought for all of us, regardless of belief.

Are you sure you're sittin' there? Can you prove it?



Cheers, mate. It'll all come out in the wash Last Judgment.

Yep, Jesus never beat the Truth into anyone nor even twisted an arm, as the Muzzies are prone to do, or even more just to save you.

Darn, I just can't help it Doc. The Truth will set you free.

Truer words were never spoken.

Those who have made light of this subject throughout this thread, are trying to ease their fears and comfort one another that their non belief and cavalier attitude will get them through if they stick together. I hope, REALLY hope, AND pray - sincerely- that they figure out soon enough that a repaired relationship with God through acknowledgement of Jesus and thier Lord (ruler over thier life) and Saviour, is their only real hope. That is true for any of us.

In answer to an earlier question, each of us do SOMETHING, every singe day, that is grievious enough to self condmen us to hell forever. It is ONLY By Gods GRACE (or, unmerited favor) THROUGH Christ and belief in him that makes the decision of which eternity for ANY of us! No matter how good or bad we think we are or are not and no matter how well we think we stack up against others or if our good deeds are more than our not so good deeds and thoughts. That will not be the marker or deciding factor. It will be only this: What did you do with Jesus, Gods only begotten Son who was God himself in the flesh? Accept him and his offer? Or reject it (maybe even ridicule it)? That, and that alone will either cause you to condemn your own self to Hell, and accepting plus getting to know Jesus whhile making him your King is the ONLY way to assure onesself of Heaven with God. It is really simple, but it is not so easy for some.

Can you not conceive that some people simply do not believe what you do? There is no fear to ease or need to stick together for someone who does not believe. A good chunk of the world doesn't see any more reason to fear the biblical hell than you do to fear the wrath of Odin.
I get that it is hard to imagine that something so real and apparent to you can be dismissed so easily by others but it is.

I can do more than conceive such disbelief - I feel it to be certain. It is quite clear that the message of salvation, the description of hell and other such Biblical assurances are very easiy dismissed by some folks. It is very much a matter of individual choice. Some will choose to be dismissive, and such choice is foretold in Scripture. Understanding this seems not a problem - lamenting this fact can be problematic.

I will respectively oblige the good Doc by not commenting as he requested in the OP.

There is absolutely NO doubt what-so-ever that both, heaven and hell truly exist.

For the record, the only way to heaven is found by accepting Jesus Christ as one's Lord and Savior.

"There are none so blind as those who will not see."

The darkest part of hell is reserved for "christians" who claim to be christians, but follow every lust and greedy desire. If you doubt that, then you'd better start reading 2nd Peter, and your Bible in general.

Another Amen from the back row!

We could all understand the Bible better than we do by studying it more, including you probably. I know I should.

i have some ocean front property to sell.........

my favorite part us when Jesus flew around the world backwards and turned back time to save Lois

You could probably sell it to ringworm. He's a fool just like you.

You might want to be careful with that.

"But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, �You fool!� will be liable to the hell of fire."

Or for those who prefer the King James language:

"But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire."

I once heard the gospel presented this way, a bit of a joke but very true.

A good, upstanding, church going brother died and found himself floating toward the pearly gates. He was thinking this is awesome, I finally get to go to heaven. Right before he goes through the gate St. Peter tells him that he first must take a test and make at least 100 points on it otherwise he will be needing a pair of asbestos drawers. St. Peter asks our friend to state everything he had done in life that merited his access to heaven. HE thinks it will be a piece of cake because he lived a good life, went to church, and did some good things.

So he begins by saying "I went to church my whole life" St. Peter says great that's one point. A bit surprised, he adds "I tithed on every dollar I ever made". St. Peter says another point for you. The prospect is now starting to get a little nervous. He says "well, I never cheated on my wife and was a good father". Peter says awesome, you get two points this time, got anything else? Terrified the brother says "I taught Sunday school a couple of years". Peter says another point, you have five so far, anything else? He then cries out "all my best works have earned me only 5 points and I need 100 otherwise I am going to hell OH GOD HAVE MERCY ON ME!

Peter says that's 300 points, congratulations, welcome to heaven.

Well said Jim.

One more question for those who "don't believe" or maybe still have a little doubt about the Christian thing. Let's say that Ringman, myself, Jim, Doc, and the millions of others in the world and on the Fire who not only believe in the God [the demons do that much....and "shudder"], but serve Him our entire lives. Let's say you [non believer] spend your entire life not believing, serving, and even putting down those who do. In the end, let's say you are right and we are wrong. What do WE have to lose? All we have done is lived the best life ever...a clean life...a life of fellowship with others, faith beyond ourselves, etc etc. But what if we are right and you are wrong? What do you have to lose?

There are biblical references to fools throughout. Just a few:

Proverbs 29:11 - A fool uttereth all his mind: but a wise [man] keepeth it in till afterwards.

Proverbs 18:2 - A fool hath no delight in understanding, but that his heart may discover itself.

Proverbs 1:7 - The fear of the LORD [is] the beginning of knowledge: [but] fools despise wisdom and instruction.

Proverbs 10:14 - Wise [men] lay up knowledge: but the mouth of the foolish [is] near destruction.

Ecclesiastes 7:9 - Be not hasty in thy spirit to be angry: for anger resteth in the bosom of fools.

Proverbs 14:15 - The simple believeth every word: but the prudent [man] looketh well to his going.

Psalms 14:1-4 - The fool hath said in his heart, [There is] no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, [there is] none that doeth good.

Pascal's wager again eh? What if the Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, etc. are right? You'd have to follow every religion there is if you're going to hedge your bets. Besides, you either believe or you don't. A person can't force themselves to believe "just in case" and what would God think about the "what have we got to lose crowd anyway?

ghost and gobblins.BRING ME PROOF

Look in the mirror!

Always an interesting topic and one I still struggle with, faith, belief, devotion, acceptance. I was raised and baptized in a Baptist church. But as time past and logical thinking developed I struggled to accept all I had been taught. I still believe in God, but a kind God, not the one described here as having great anger and vengeance against those that have not accepted Jesus. I feel God's presence in the woods and mountains, I talk to him there, but I do not find him in church so I no longer go. I guess I have belief but not faith. My cousin lost her 8 year old son to brain cancer last month. She has faith I can only dream of. Belief in Heaven, yes, I want to see my father and mother, family and friends again. If entry into Heaven is only by acceptance of His gift, not how you lived your life, logic tells me some evil people all their lives could accept the gift on their final day and enter Heaven. I do not want to see Hitler there. I will continue to work through this as I suppose we all must. It does not weigh heavy on my mind, one day it might. Of this I am certain, religious extremes of all types lead to hate and fear, not Heaven.

It's the 'Christians' that think non-believers can't and don't live the best life ever, a clean life of fellowship with others that cracks me up.

Peculiar that it always gets you so worked up.

Do you understand why?

At the very least God's gift is life...

Yep, I'm not a fan of elitists.

As you stated it, if Hitler was saved on his final day he will certainly be in heaven. Christ was the perfect sacrifice and was sufficient for all sin past, present and future...

Quite possible some seemingly "bad" people might sneak in at the last minute. One of the thieves crucified next to Jesus got in at the last minute, but I seriously doubt Hitler will make it..

It's a gift, take it or leave it. It's not up to us to set the parameters of a gift freely given.

Setting aside the subjective premise of a "clean life", Asphaltangel does bring up an interesting point.

If an atheist is wrong, he's screwed in the afterlife. If the atheist is right.... he's still screwed.

Personally I'd rather go down swinging than take that called third strike.

I think you may have misunderstood where I am coming from in the post. The "what do you have to lose" question is a sincere question, and the answer is your soul and everlasting life ...living forever in the presence of Jesus and all our loved ones who have gone before us that have also given their hearts to Jesus.

There is a big difference between Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus and Christians. Christians base their faith on God's infallible word. Christians serve a living God that rose from the dead and we have the privilege of having a personal and vital relationship with God. All other religions serve a dead god. What will God think when you stand before Him and He asks why didn't you accept my free gift of salvation? Whatever it takes my friend. Eternity is a long time.

The pious types put me off too.

But they're a decided minority.

Old school Christians don't wear it on their sleeves.

It's just something that's always been a part of them that they don't bother flashing,...like a fingerprint

King David did some pretty evil things, and it's a matter of faith that he ended up acceptable to God.

I understood perfectly well. There's no difference to the Muslims, Buddhists, and Hindus. They'd say the same about your beliefs and I'm sure they naturally assume they're operating on the infallible word of their god(s) and that Christians are serving the wrong god. Pascal's like you, assumes Christianity is true therefore his wager is between accepting the truth or not. They assume their beliefs are true and dismiss Christianity as easily as you do their religion and might wonder how you'll explain yourself to their god(s) in the afterlife.

So if Hitler accepted the gift then the true Christian would accept Hitler as his brother in Christ and happily spend eternity with him? This is concept I cannot accept. I guess I need to learn true forgiveness. There is evil in this world that needs to spend eternity in Hell without the chance of a get out of jail free card.

The human is just a vehicle in the form of a sophisticated monkey.

It's a piece of meat which temporarily houses an abbreviated representation of the consciousness.

You can't judge the consciousness from the monkey it's housed in.

Depends on your definition of "fun". I'll grant you though that one man shouldn't judge another, regardless. It's easy to know right from wrong though. Ain't no gray area.

,...and,.

It's possible that we're all a part of a collective consciousness that's temporarily divided into a congregation of individual monkeys.

Some pieces of consciousness get a good monkey,...some,..not so much.

Sin is sin in God's eyes.

Without faith in Jesus Christ any sin condemns us to hell, with faith in Jesus Christ no amount of sin condemns us to hell.

In heaven as a perfect being we will welcome Hitler (if he was saved) as a brother as he would be a perfect being also.

You and Ringman are paddling in the same canoe.....
and your distain and judgement of a fellow brother is strike one......for today.
Better get that cleared up with "the man".

,...and,...maybe the test is,..."How will this piece of consciousness develop the monkey?"

Or,...maybe,.."What will win out?,...the consciousness or the monkey?"

You, my friend, are a breath of fresh air.
Sadly, you will not be welcomed by the "established" Christian crowd......
Oh well.......God loves you.

Basically,...from the time that you're born,...it's you against the monkey.

Yeah,....that's probably it.

Thank You for the kind words. I'll pray that doesn't happen.

I welcome you, LBP, or at least i hope you welcome me. You are, for sure, in good company.

Eyeball we have sent each other PM's. You are most welcome Sir, and thank you for welcoming me.

And you me, LBP.

Here you go....

Revelation 20:10...

"And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever."

The real source of the evil you are talking about has no chance, and once they are in "jail" they won't be getting out.

Remember....Ephesians 6:12..."For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms." This was written by the Apostle Paul during a time when he and the early Christians were suffering under the Romans as the Jews did under Hitler.

My one, well second, comment is why folks worry about me and god, heaven and hell. I do not for them as they are all quite at peace so all is good by me, for them. That written, why do I matter to them? Move one, as the good Doc suggested in the OP, goes both ways.

if you actually think you can go thru life as a criminal then become a christian and all is fine then you go for it. for many it a crutch that they must have. i 've seen many that turned to religion when something bad happened in there life only to get screwed out of there life savings by some greedy church.

i know preachers that poach deer every year,i know people that spend half the year workin on chuch projects but the other half is spent drinking and partying . i had a close friend that did everything he could every day for his church,then he'd go home and beat wife almost daily. she's his ex-wife now.

heaven must be one crowded place with all the good people that died sense the beginning of time there.the thing that gets me is most religous people i know believe that in evolution ,well it didn't happen both ways. theres alot more evidence that evolution really happened.i've heard some scientist say that religion is the biggest scam in human history.

then theres the guy thats in a bus wreck and everyone is killed but him. oh,my the lord spared me,well why the hell did he kill the other 40 people on the bus? makes no sense to me.

I do volunteer work with many Wounded Warriors from the Army & Marines. After getting to know many of the more severely wounded I have heard stories of after death experiences. Virtually all of them have similarities. One is especially intriguing & was a life charging experience for the sergeant involved. While traveling with his sniper team in a Humvee they were next to a large IED when the explosion occurred killing everyone, but the sergeant. With massive injuries including having his face blown off he went into cardiac arrest. A medic pulled him from the burning wreckage & revived him. While being transported in a helicopter he again went into cardiac arrest & was revived. In both instances he remembers floating into a bright light & having the feeling of total peace & then suddenly being pulled back. His next encounter with death is even more startling. Upon arrival at the medical center in Germany surgery was underway when his heart stopped again. He remembers looking down on himself on the operating table & recalls everything the doctors & nurses discussed & later confirmed with them. Several attempts to resuscitate him failed & finally one doctor was ready to pronounce him dead. A second doctor decided to make one more attempt & finally got some heart activity. While all this was going on he experienced the bright light again, but this time he was floating above a river of fire & saw the ugliest being he had ever experienced sitting on some sort of a rock formation. Next he had the sensation of floating & recalled every slight & sin he had committed in his life. He also recalled every evil thing anyone had ever done to them & forgave them. He experienced a feeling of total peace & being forgiven for his sins & forgiving any that had been committed toward him. The feeling of total happiness & bliss was over powering. Suddenly he was whisked back into a bring light & recalls someone stating that they now had heart activity. He was eventually flown to Walter Reed still in critical condition. He face was reconstructed after 15 operations & while not a monster is horribly disfigured. He has an artificial eye, is disfigured, & has other medical issues to deal with, but has dedicated his life to God. I had the privilege of assisting him on several hunts. I have no idea what his after death experiences mean, but I am confident they occurred.

I see a lot of "Christians should be quiet and keep their faith to their selves" sentiments. But remember, witnessing the Good News is part of Christianity, and is part of "love your neighbor".

Spiritual Works of Mercy

To instruct the ignorant.
To counsel the doubtful.
To admonish sinners.
To bear wrongs patiently.
To forgive offences willingly.
To comfort the afflicted.
To pray for the living and the dead.

Exactly, Jesus forgave the Romans while they nailed him to the cross. As long as were alive we can except Christ and be forgiven. Even people who have done countless evil things.

If they repent of their sins.

Yes Sir

Oh man! Now you tell me! I was just in the 'Now that we know what 223 AI means' thread!

You know, I haven't read this whole thread, but those that really know and really believe are not elitists - just confident. There is a big difference - real Christians want nothing more than for all non-believers to be converted. To me that is the opposite of elitists - it's free for everyone. The most loving, serving, humble, perfect person that ever walked this earth, willingly took my place and suffered pain, agony and death so that I might live. He did this knowing ahead of time that I would repeatedly deny Him and fail. He did it anyway, and His love for me cannot be expressed only experienced. Wow, just wow - thank you God!

Awesome post Bluedog.

Amen Bludog

Steelhead, it was a pleasure meeting you at the Hog Hunt. I hope you are still finding the good fishing holes. I am new to the campfire and I'm realizing just how easy it is to word something wrong or come off as a know it all. I don't know if you have the "best life ever". I am just passionate about my faith and could not imagine living this life without God at the center or the promise of everlasting life. Thanks for your feedback.

A friend of mine called a couple of weeks ago, to deliver a message that a former co-worker had taken his own life.

Details were sparse, but the gist of what happened, was that he walked away from his house and shot himself in the chest. He fell in the roadway and was nearly struck by a driver who thought his body was trash in the road.

The lady got out and realized it was a man. She approached him and asked if he were alright. He was still alive at the time and able to speak.

He told her that he had shot himself. Then screamed that he was already burning and going to hell.

It gave me chills when I heard what he had said.

Later we found out that he was involved in some very dark things that he couldn't face being brought to light.

A couple of times in the last few weeks, I've awoken suddenly from sleep trying to catch my breath. More than likely Sleep Apnea related. (currently waiting to sort that out.)

But I find myself remembering the OP by Doc on the guy who had the Heart Attack and thought he was visiting Hell..

Although I didn't feel like I was dying, waking up gasping for air will put a scare in you for a while. Makes you very very cautions about going back to sleep.. It takes me to a whole other fear level. A level that brings into light just how fragile life is and how quickly/easily we could slip from it...

Anyhow, I came back to read Doc's post again, truly nerve straightening stuff on page 1...

Demons are real

Really

Snake

That's the only reason he got a "reprieve". Prayer changes things.

That is for making change but, theoretically, there should be a net gain in the plate.

Was watching a show recently on a Belgian neurologist who has been trying to recreate Near Death Experiences (NDE) in the lab. He broke down NDE's into about 6 parts and provided an explanation for all of them, and then he went about trying to recreate all of the parts, most of them successfully.

He wasn't trying to disprove religion, only to prove that what people experience as a NDE might have medical causes.

Which made me think back to this original post. We always hear when someone has a NDE that there is a white light, a narrow tunnel and a feeling of "warm n fuzzy" love all around. We Never hear about anybody going the other way. I believe this story by DR is the only time I've read about someone visiting the "other side", coming back from a NDE and being frightened to death.

Doc, were there any other experiences you've had where folks were revived and didn't have a good feeling about death that you can talk about, other than the 2 you mentioned?

Anybody ever talk to anybody that's had a NDE that wasn't what they portray in the movies.?

I haven't read anything by/about this Belgian neurologist, so I can't say one way or another about it. But I will say I very much doubt he could re-create the medical condition of Dr. Alexander. His description of his medical circumstances are to my mind unprecedented and could not be duplicated by any iatrogenic manipulation.

As for other examples of unpleasant NDE's, there are many out there if you care to search. It isn't hard to find them.

no functional brain, heh?
sounds like a pre and post diagnosis.

D Roc, having given anesthesia for over three decades in a tertiary care center first, then in a small regional hospital, I've many patients who I thought might die "on me," and though I've had a few, I've had very few..which is a very good thing. I've never experienced the type of circumstance you describe though I've read of them.

I've always had the luxury of telling the surgeon regarding a patient who looked like he had one step in the grave and the other poised, "no, not here," meaning we shouldn't do the case in our hospital.

There is book, that even as a believer was absolutely horrible to read, and that was "23 Minutes in hell." I don't quite know what to say about this book but state this seriously to the steadfast naysayers, the ultimate irony is he will be until he's there and then it's too late. I believe, rather I know it's a definite, literal place; perhaps of a different dimension and time will no longer exist.

Ernest Hemingway - 1954

Got to love him!

My cousin is a surgeon. He has had similar experiences but only with people going to Heaven. He wrote a book about it.

I worked as a Chaplain and spent time in ER. I'm totally convinced people go to heaven. I've not heard about going to hell, glad you wrote about it.

I also had a near death experience personally. I'm convinced since then that I have nothing to worry about. Not by my actions, I have not in any way deserved it! But I have faith in Jesus, who died for me and you. I don't believe anyone deserves Heaven. We are all sinners.
We become saints when we have faith in the one who died for us. So, we are saints and sinners at the same time. But Jesus has won our freedom. Believe in him!

Perhaps people who take the "white light" stories as comforting and that there is no ultimate penalty for a rejection of God and his redemptive work don't know what they don't know.

I'm just speculating here as we don't have hard explanations for these stories but the scriptures tell us Satan is the great deceiver, the Father of Lies and a murderer, but that he can appear as an angel of light. To speak in the vernacular we can think of him as the once, ultimate creature (created) with an IQ of 20,000 and who has access to many dimensions, could intervene in the most fragile of moments as life is slipping away but he (maybe) knows won't. The persons who's consciousness is restored then has the "white light" story to become the calming elixir to thousands of those who read of these stories but reject God.

Interesting, hadn't ever considered that..

[/quote]

Doc, I posted this link in the thread about Heaven.

All Nurses.com/what's your best ghost story?

Your story above reminded me of this post from the link above. I'm not saying it's true, but it has some similarities to the stories people have told about dying and going to Hell before being resuscitated.-


My creepiest and scariest ghost story for me happened about a year ago. It really was more of a posession than a ghost story. I was helping another nurse with a patient that had lived a very hard life. It had numerous things going on with him from cardiac to renal failure. You name it, he had it going on. This man was very much afraid to die. Every time his heart monitor beeped, he would just go into a rage screaming, "Don't let me die! Don't let me die!" The other nurse and I found out why he didn't want to die. About 0200 his cardiac monitor starts alarming V-Tach. We both rush into the room. I am pulling the crash cart behing me. When I get to the room, the other nurse is completely white. This man was sitting about 2 inches above the bed and was laughing. His whole look completely changed. His eyes just had a look of pure evil on them and he had this evil smile on his face. He laughed at us and said, " You stupid b****es aren't going to let me die will you?" and he laughed again. We were kinda frozen. I did reach up and hit the Code Blue button and when I did the man went into V-fib. He crashed back onto the bed. We started coding him, but after 20 minutes it was called. 5 minutes after the code was called several of the code team is in the room cleaning up when this man sits straight up in the bed and says, " You let him die. Too bad." and then begins laughing. The man collapsed back to the bed. We heard a horrible, agonizing scream ( actually every patient in the unit that night commented on the scream), and then you could hear "don't let me die" being whispered throughout the unit. Everyone of the nurses that night was pale and scared. No body went anywhere by themselves. By morning the whispers of "don't let me die" were gone. The night shift nurses had a prayer service in the break room before we left for home and then we all had nightmares for weeks. [/quote]

As a chaplain, I went to see the nurses on a ward after I visited a patient. That patient was horrible to be around. I prayed for him and he cursed me for it. The nurses really needed prayers.

I read this some time back.. When Doc posted it originally.

Since then I"ve sent Doc a pm confirming what I read...

I'll just say out of the blue, and some time after having forgotten all about this, we did a run backing up EMS as first responders.

The woman was basically dead on scene. She had minor stuff going on but basically gone.

It took some work to get her back and back she came.

Screaming at the top of her lungs, with a look in her eyes I had NEVER seen. I've been around a handful of patients we've gotten back too.. not a new thing to me.

Lets just say that even to this day, that is the ONLY time I've seen a reaction that was anywhere close to "wild". Most just come on back gradually and even go back to talking to you etc... one the other night insisted on driving home....( he lost that bet and instead was chauffeured via rotary wing really quickly)

This woman went to hell. Not a single doubt in my mind. In fact it took me a couple of minutes into her coming back, when all of a sudden Doc's whole post came back loud and clear.

I know what I saw.

And its more proof of hell than I've seen of Heaven, IE that couldn't be explained.... I"ve seen Heaven when Dad died, but that could be explained away...

A bit of humor

St. Peter met 20 couples at the gate. (They evidently died in a bus crash).
He told the men, "All of you men that are hen-pecked step over here."

19 moved immediately.

St. Peter said to the last man, "Are you not hen-pecked?"

The man trembled and said, "My wife told me not to move."

We send ourselves,we pick where we end up.Some just dont realize thats where they want to go.

About three years ago, my dog got caught in a coni-bear, and it killed her.

True story.

Fortunately, I was only about 100 yards away, released her, and started chest compressions. In a few minutes, she came back, looked at me a little confused, but was pretty darn happy.

From that I conclude that dogs do, indeed, go to heaven....

I missed this the first time but it truly confirms what I've witnessed.

Thanks for the posts Doc!

I had an Aunt that dies on the operating table. A few years later she told us the story about what she saw. She saw herself leaving her body and going into a room. Men in black were waiting for her. When she was dead, she was screaming in terror at the men saying " get away from me " . The doctors brought her back . I dont think she told them. When she told us the story a fe yrs later she was yelling her story in a panic of what she saw. She was even crying and shaking to the point she couldn't control herself. I, consider myself a born again Christian and I was very surprised how scared she still was over the matter. Other cousins were nothing less than shocked over the story. There was no reason for her to lie about this matter. She was 60 yrs old and had noone to impress. She took God , and Jesus a lot more serious after that. Unfortunatly , she remained a democrat till the day she died. She said it was s real as sitting were she was, and was not a "blurry dream " of some sort. It was as real as can be.

I probably have not read this whole thread, but may have, as some of it is very old. I do not have a near death story to tell, but I feel that I must weigh in on some things. I hear lots of people say that it would be impossible for there to be a soul that goes to Heaven or Hell, but the Bible promises us a new body, and We as a people can do essentially the same thing when we have a computer about to crash. We load information on a stick or send it through the air to be saved on another new computer, basically having the same thing in a new body. Think what an entity magnitudes smarter that us, could accomplish. Just something for people to chew on. miles

.

Like clockwork, just in time to mock Christians.

antelope sniper,

Serious question, not trying to start a fight;

Why do you come onto other people's threads about their faith and ridicule those beliefs?

Ed

Antelope, why would a guy like Doc Rocket or my Aunt make up something like this? Also, my Aunt was dead. The doctors told her so. DocRockets also said this man was dead. They came back to tell a story. Have you ever been dead on an operating table? If not , you cannot honestly say it is B.S. right? Doc and doctors he knows have told very similar stories of people that were dead and were brought back. Medical equipment showed they were dead. How can you say you have more authority or experience to discredit my Aunt, Docrocket , or the doctors he know and respects?

AS... mock to your heart's content. When I wrote the OP 2 years ago I started the thread with this sentence:




And I closed the OP with this one:



I don't believe you need or deserve any further response than this.

Hey AS, if your gonna tell the tale, get the story straight.

antelope_sniper,

The message of your post makes little sense, but makes more sense than believing you came from nothing that became something without conscience and produced an intelligent man who can disparage others.

About 26 years ago, my son, age 4years and 6 days old, had a series of open heart surgeries, 3 over a period of 20 days. The 1st surgery was the only one scheduled, the other 2 had to be done because the 1st did not work.

His vital signs were crashing on that Saturday morning, and the surgeon told us they had to operate now, or we will lose him.

During the surgery, a nurse, kept coming out to keep us informed. At one point she tells us they are having a difficult time getting him off the heart/lung machine, which is not a good thing.

Finally, he is off that machine and they bring him to ICU. As the days progress, and he gets better, we notice he has an imaginary playmate, named Alex. He tells us Alex is another little boy who had heart surgery, and Alex follows us home. We were in the hospital for 52 days.

3 months after we get home, Alex is still around by the way, and my son, who is playing Legos, looks up at his Mom and says, "Mommy, I know what it feels like to die". Stunned, she asks him about it, and he tells her the story of God kidnapping him, and walking down a hallway, with other people around. My wife asks him what does God look like, and he says 'Sunny'. He said that while he and God were walking, God stopped and told him 'it's time for you to go home. Tell your Mommy your not going to die'. And then he goes back to playing Legos, like nothing happened.

He brought it up one more time, about a month later, and never again. He is 30yo now, and doesn't remember anything of what he said.

At 4 years of age, he had the 'classic' NDE, floating over the operating table seeing himself being operated on, which is where Alex most likely came from, seeing other people in a bright tunnel and walking with God, the 'sunny' light.

I used to think that adult NDE's were influenced by reading of NDE's, thereby perpetuating them.

But, here I had a just turned 4yo who could not read, and nobody ever talked to him about dying, and he has an NDE.

I Believe.

Thanks for sharing that..

This is what I know from personal experience; my life has completely changed for the better when I began a relationship with Jesus Christ. It began 4 years ago next month. I only wish the same for others. I have much to improve but that is part of it.

Antelope Sniper is very good at mocking the faith of Christians (which, frankly, any dolt can do with some degree of alacrity). What he's not very good at is defending his own religious faith!


http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/11037712/1

Doc,

Your right, I was leaving this thread alone. I guess I missed that when it was Resurrected.

Hi AS. The question for me is why would you go to mockery and disdain? You of course have a free will to reject and disbelieve all you want and ignore it. Could it be a protective reflex to deal with the uncertainty that is at your core? That uncertainty could be a good thing.

It's mindful to me of liberalism wherein is all tolerance and inclusiveness...until you present them with conservatism. But even a few liberals eventually become conservatives.

The adult NDE can be explained away by education of religion. I get that. I understand that. ITs not what I choose to believe. But I get it that its possible.

The kids that have NO clue, those I can't explain away.... and my seeing the hell death, I have ZERO doubts.

When my father was dying at home, slowly and painfully, we kept urging him to go home. He kept saying his home( what does the bible actually say, home,room etc...) was not ready yet. And he spoke of his deceased sibling at the time.

And then one day, he says, and not in a coherent state mostly anymore at that time, out of the blue, we were not talking about this, I think not talking any at all right then... My house is ready.

It was less than 24 hours later he died. And within 2 hours of his death, I saw, or at least I'm convinced I saw, his spirit moving from the hall to the dining room. I was not looking, but caught it out of the corner of my eye. He was no longer with us, he was in cheney stokes breathing, and I may have "seen" something that was not, but I am fairly sure it was what I saw as I was not grieving at that time, but actually praying for him to be out of pain... Obviuosly I did grieve greatly after the fact......

I have met the maker and returned. I am by no means a perfect man and have always struggled with faith and full belief until my experience. I am very scientifically minded and believe in the Big Bang theory and evolution. I just simply believe that its scientific mans best solution to Gods works. In other words God made it so , doesn't matter to me what you call it or label it to me. Some are just looking to create something tangible as they search for answers that hopefully will lead that person to the real discovery.

I have also always known that the colors found in Mother Nature alone, be it a butterfly, a sunset or a blue sky and green leaves left something more than science could fully explain. I get all the science behind it but why/how it is so beautifully put together never made sense scientifically.

My time came while practicing for a free diving spearfishing competition. I blacked out at the 4 minute mark right as the back of my head broke the surface. My partner thought I had taken a breath and was doing another breath hold. I hadn't gotten to take that breath.

Another 4 minutes into my submersion something literally struck my partner and said "go get him". I was underwater for an estimated 8 plus minutes. When brought up and put on the deck I obviously wasn't breathing nor was there a pulse of any sort whatsoever. The water temp was 72 degrees and I was 42 years old at the time.

After several minutes of compression I took my first breath. Within another couple of minutes I was up and walking. On the way to the hospital in the back of the ambulance things got bad for me. It seems I had aspirated several times flooding both lobes of both lungs as my diaphram continued to pump water into my lungs. At first I didn't want to go the the hospital but the EMT convinced me otherwise. On the way I coughed up almost a full five gallon bucket of frothy blood.

Now during this time of black out and near death or death whatever you want to call it I was upon a mountain, the sky was brilliantly lit with stars. The wind was gently blowing and the air was crisp and cool. Gods hand was upon my shoulder as he stood beside me but over me.

I felt nothing but love, tranquility and peace. It was by far the most peaceful and happy moment of my entire life. I still don't know why he sent me back. I have never feared death to begin with but now I know the real truth, have complete and undoubting faith and thank the Lord several times a day for the forgiveness and the beauty that he has allowed us all.

I am by no means rushing to get there again as I know its in his hands. I continue to try to touch as many lives as possible when their ears are looking for answers.

I am also still a heathen and sinner of sorts but as my buddy put it what better place is there to fish for the willing than in a pond of heathens. Stay well folks.

So to those who are about to loose a loved one or have already done so please know that they are in a state of grace like no other I have ever known to this day.

Powerful. thanks for telling this. there are many stories just like yours. I have one myself. There's no doubting anymore.

Very interesting stories! Doc - Thanks for starting the thread.(Even it was a couple of years ago)

From my notes on a talk I heard recently:

(NDE - Near Death Experience)

Dr. Pim van Lommel, a cardiologist from the Netherlands, conducted a study on cardiac arrest patients who were successfully revived. He found that 18 percent had an NDE.

According to a literature study by P. M. H. Atwater,
about 50% described heaven-like, pleasant experiences,
about 15% of all NDE's are described as unpleasant, threatening, or frightening. (Such as Doc's anecdote.)
about 20% described "transcendent experiences involving “alternate realities and otherworldly scenes,” often with
“revelations of greater truths.”

Atwater also showed a connection between the type of person who has the NDE and the nature of the NDE itself.

Some research seems to show that people can make positive NDEs more likely through spiritual practice and preparation.

Praise the Lord, Doc! Thanks for sharing this story. He could run, but he could never hide from the hound of heaven.

I was raised Catholic, attended Catholic school for 12 years and then sort of lost my way for about 15 years or so. The near death of my now 14 year old daughter during childbirth led to an experience that i believe was divine intervention.

I attend Baptist church now because it is the way my wife was raised. my personal belief is that no church has it it completely correct, all churches are influenced by the people that control them. I do believe that jesus christ died for me. died an unbelievably agonizing death for me.
I put my head down every night knowing i failed him in some way that day and i wake up every morning hoping in some small way to be a better man than i was the day before. It works for me and mine.

From a national geographic article
"There’s been on-going scientific debate over the years about how exactly crucifixion killed its victims. A 2006 article in the Journal of the Royal Society of Medicine, for example, listed 9 different hypotheses about Jesus’ precise cause of death, including asphyxiation, heart failure, a blood clot in the lungs, and hypovolemic shock, in which severe blood and fluid loss prevent the heart from pumping enough blood to the body, causing organ failure. Some researchers conclude that condemned prisoners such as Jesus most likely died from some combination of various life-threatening conditions, which would set in progressively during crucifixion and gradually overwhelm their bodies.
But of all those effects, the most lethal effect of crucifixion was that it was designed to interfere with a condemned prisoner’s ability to breathe. That process likely began before the crucifixion, when guards brutally beat the condemned with a flagrum, a short whip with sharp objects interwoven into its thongs. As medical examiner Frederick T. Zugibe noted in his book “The Crucifixion of Jesus: A Forensic Inquiry,” the repeated blows would cause broken ribs, lacerated and collapsed lungs, and damaged the muscles in the torso, which would make it difficult and painful to breathe. He then would be dragged to his feet and forced to carry part of the cross to his place of the place of execution, which weakened his body even more.
At that point, the Romans attached the prisoner to the cross. In some instances prisoners were tied with rope to it, which might enable them to survive for several days. But according to the New Testament, Jesus and other unfortunates were attached with nails. It is thought that the feet were nailed vertically to the upright beam with the knees bent at around 45 degrees. In the 1950s, French surgeon Dr. Pierre Barbet, based in part upon an experiment that he performed with a cadaver, proposed that the nails were driven between the bones of Jesus’s wrist. That would have severed the median nerve, paralyzing the hands and caused excruciating pain. Zugibe however, argued that the palms, as described in the New Testament, were sufficiently strong enough to support the executed person’s weight, and were “the most plausible location.”
Otherwise, as the cross beam was put into place, the prisoner’s thigh muscles would eventually fail, so that he couldn’t support himself with his legs. That, in turn, transferred his body weight to his arms, pulling his shoulders from their sockets. He was left in a position in which his chest and rib cage were thrust forward. As Jeremy Ward, a physiologist at King’s College London explained to the Guardian newspaper in 2004: "The weight of the body pulling down on the arms makes breathing extremely difficult." In some instances, when the Romans wanted to prolong the suffering, they might attach a sedile, or seat, to the cross, which reportedly allowed some victims to survive for days. But according to Zugibe, they probably did not provide a sedile for Jesus, since Jewish scripture barred executioners from leaving a condemned person on the cross overnight."

Wow!!! Amazing!!! Keep sharing that good news!!!

Thanks for the thread.
I've known two people who have reported near death experiences. One to heaven, one to hell. The one who reported going to the gates of hell was terrified and on his return couldn't see his Christian friend fast enough. The other had a wonderful experience.

Thanks for the thread!

May God bless all of you!

Man, I forgot what a nutjob Eyeball is.

Thanks for posting this. It is refreshing to hear your story. Too often we are led to believe that men of science cannot be believers because faith and science conflict but you and George obviously disprove that. It's really interesting to hear a physician's take on this.

There are many famous scientists that are or were Christians. "Hard" science, not that which is merely dogma, is the window into God's General Revelation; that is all of his creation.

http://coldcasechristianity.com/201...reat-christian-thinkers-and-scientists/#

George_De_Vries_3rd,

That book is a great listen. Sue and I have been listening to it for a couple days. He spends a lot of time telling the reader about real crime cases and solving them.

Covert Cognition: My So-Called Near-Death Experience

Feature

Stephanie Savage​

Skeptical Inquirer Volume 39.4, July/August 2015

A skeptic sees no light at the end of the tunnel when she falls into a six-week coma and nearly dies.

We often see and hear dramatic accounts of near-death experiences (NDEs) in books, in films, and on television. But where are the stories from skeptics who “returned” but not from The Other Side? After all, NDEs are generally accepted as a neurological phenomenon. Well, most people who have NDEs actually die. Among the survivors, many are severely brain-damaged. Of those who do recover, most are believers. As for the skeptical ones, how many of them are writers? Not many, probably, but I am one.

“It’s the profound brain damage again,” has become a running joke whenever I say something stupid, a fairly common occurrence long before the strokes that caused my coma. This wouldn’t be very funny if I weren’t fully conscious now—excluding mornings. I’m writing this article not long after the first anniversary of my awakening. My boyfriend calls it Coma Day, and he’s never forgotten the date. I’ve never forgotten that first conscious moment.

I thought I was suffering through a miserably sleepless night, a recurring theme in what I call my coma-dream. Every time I finally managed to drop off, something would wake me up again. Whenever doctors shined lights in my eyes looking for signs of consciousness, I would grumpily ask them to leave me alone so I could get back to sleep . . . in the coma-dream. My lack of response in the real world only added to their conviction that my brain was, as they said, profoundly damaged. My mother, boyfriend, and his mother, who had visited daily, noticed signs of my increasing awareness, but their observations were disregarded by the doctors.

When I finally awoke, I thought, “Goddammit, I just fell back asleep.” That’s when my mother told me I had actually been sleeping for six weeks, on the brink of death. I was shocked. “Seriously?” I mouthed. I had a tracheostomy, so I couldn’t speak—a fate worse than death for me.

However, the doctors’ conclusions weren’t groundless. My MRI showed that I had suffered a series of strokes on both sides of my brain when my blood pressure plummeted from septic shock. The sepsis was triggered by Legionnaires’ disease, a rare form of severe pneumonia discovered when it sickened attendees at a Legionnaires’ convention.

In the waning days of a vacation in Sicily with my boyfriend, Keith, I came down with what we thought was nothing more than a nasty chest cold. We joked about my case of “Mussolini’s Revenge,” but it was far more serious than that. A few days after we returned home, he rushed me to the emergency room. I was so delirious that when he asked why I hadn’t turned on the air conditioning, I said, “I like the heat.” It was 105° that day, and I hate the heat.

Most of the victims at the Legionnaires’ convention were elderly. I caught the disease because my immune system was weakened by prednisone, which I was taking for an obscure autoimmune disease called dermatomyositis. It’s uncommon enough that I’ve often seen the dermatomyositis Wikipedia page on the computer screen when seeing a new specialist. And, yes, it is disturbing that medical professionals are using a questionable information source popular with schoolchildren.

Though the doctors continued to dismiss suggestions of my improving wakefulness, much of what was going on around me was filtering into my coma-dream. I wasn’t aware that I was in a vegetative state, but I knew I had a “trach,” a term I had previously heard only in medical dramas. Encouraged by an imaginary doctor, I blew large bubbles out of my nose—as if I’d been snorting bubblegum—when I had a sinus infection from my feeding tube. The constant thrumming was the machinery keeping me alive.

Near death isn’t required for a near-death experience. They can be triggered by severe illness and even fainting (from lack of oxygen to the brain). Though my coma-dream shared many similarities with typical NDEs, my experience was different because I’m a skeptic. The reason I didn’t see dead relatives is I don’t believe in life after death. Likewise, I didn’t see Jesus’s rainbow-hued horse because I’m Jewish and not a four-year-old imagining Jesus with a gay Little Pony. I did, however, dream of ice cream. Indeed, while my life didn’t flash before my eyes, childhood elements figured prominently in the revolving segments of the coma-dream. On my Brain TV, some shows were repeats, while others had advancing plots like soap operas. I had a lot of time to kill.

One serial featured a low Big Wheel–like kid’s tricycle that churned ice cream in a cart attached to the back as it was peddled. Actually, burning the calories you’re about to consume isn’t such a bad idea. Sometimes when I peddled this ice cream–making Big Wheel, I was an anthropomorphic polar bear cub. While I saw no religious figures, I imagined miniaturized zoo animals right out of a 1950s sci-fi film. They were having a tea party, like poker-playing dogs except with tiny china cups. You can see why I call this a coma-dream. These surreal images may be akin to the spirits believers see in their NDEs.

After the awakening, I felt like Dorothy waking up in bed after her journey down the Yellow Brick Road. So many of the things in the coma-dream suddenly made sense—except for the cub-powered ice cream Big Wheel and toy-sized elephant. The pachyderm held the teapot with its trunk.

Oh, that’s the reason snippets of The Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy, one of my favorite books, kept wafting into unrelated storylines. My boyfriend had read to me from the book, while my mother had played the original BBC radio series. I don’t believe the incursions always occurred when I heard them, though. My mother also used her e-reader to play some recent David Attenborough nature documentaries, including one on Charles Darwin. (As a former future-paleontologist, evolution has long been a special interest of mine.) Sometimes sections would repeat. I thought I was rewinding the program because my mind wandered (something I do frequently). My Brain TV had a DVR.

the author unconscious in a hospitalAuthor Stephanie Savage while in her six-week coma.
Ah, so that’s why they kept asking me to stop biting the hose delivering Hi-C to my mouth as if from a beer hat. They weren’t risking cavities by giving me a sugary fruit-flavored drink; they were preventing them by cleaning my mouth with a citrus-flavored swab. If I had stopped biting the swab, I wouldn’t have had so much plaque on my teeth, the reason I was running my tongue over my teeth in both the coma-dream and in reality. I couldn’t understand how my teeth could’ve gotten that coated overnight. But then, the tooth-licking was one of the signs of recovering awareness that gave my loved ones hope, even if the doctors wouldn’t acknowledge it as such.

And my new boyfriend in the dream, the one who looked and sounded exactly like Keith in every way except his beard, actually was Keith, who had grown a full beard while I was in the coma. I wondered why his glasses had been repaired with the same kludge Keith devised in Sicily—with the sticky part of a clear Band-Aid. What a weird coincidence. Since this was a form of dream, that wasn’t a tipoff, even when I slipped and called him Keith.

But for most people in a vegetative state, they’re more likely to hear prayers and the Bible than Hitchhiker’s Guide. That must affect what they visualize in their NDEs. Indeed, the content of NDEs varies among cultures. I was raised without religion, but the disembodied voices I heard were not unlike spirit voices. My brain didn’t supply images of the afterlife because I believe life after death is a fantasy. Resistance to being awakened is similar to reluctance to return from The Other Side. Using Occam’s razor, which is more likely to be true?

If I had been a New Ager, seeing myself being turned over to prevent bedsores would’ve seemed like an out-of-body experience (OBE). But how many times have I watched myself from outside my body in an ordinary dream? Oh, wait—some people believe those are OBEs too. I once dreamed that a lion put its paw on my hand, only to wake up with my cat’s paw on my hand. It doesn’t take a genius to figure that one out. There’s nothing supernatural about that; it’s just sensory information mixed with imagination. Besides, my eyes were sometimes open, so my perceptions weren’t always imaginary. That’s how I knew Keith had grown a full beard.

According to the Merck Manual:

A vegetative state is absence of responsiveness and awareness due to overwhelming dysfunction of the cerebral hemispheres, with sufficient sparing of the diencephalon and brain stem to preserve autonomic and motor reflexes and sleep-wake cycles. Patients may have complex reflexes, including eye movements, yawning, and involuntary movements to noxious stimuli, but show no awareness of self or environment. (Maiese 2014)

Yet, there is growing empirical evidence of covert cognition in people who have been in a persistent vegetative state (PVS) for years. Using functional magnetic resonance imaging (fMRI), which determines brain activity by displaying blood-flow patterns, researchers from Cambridge University, including pioneering researcher Dr. Adrian Owen, were able to communicate with five patients with consciousness disorders by asking them to imagine one of two activities (Owen et al. 2006). In the motor task, they were instructed to imagine playing tennis. In the spatial task, they were asked to navigate familiar locations. The images lit up different brain regions. Four patients were able to answer yes or no questions with this technique (Monti et al. 2010). One answered five of six correctly. His “do not resuscitate” order was rescinded. The results were repeatable and corresponded closely to those of the healthy controls.

Kate Bainbridge, the first vegetative person Dr. Owen tested with positron emission tomography (PET), eventually recovered her mental faculties. “I was unresponsive and looked hopeless,” she later told him in a note, “but the scan showed people I was in there. It was like magic, it found me.” Today, she’s angry at the doctors who ignored her discomfort because they assumed she wasn’t feeling anything. The reason I was dreaming about ice cream—another serialized dream also involved ice cream—is probably because I was left uncovered in a frigid room.

Now at Canada’s Western University, Dr. Owen and his team recently conducted an fMRI study in which a man who had been vegetative for sixteen years responded with nearly identical brain patterns as the study’s healthy controls while watching “Bang! You’re Dead,” an episode of Alfred Hitchcock Presents (Naci et al. 2014). This indicated that he was following the suspenseful plot. Regarding the subject, Jeff Tremblay, Dr. Naci said, “For the first time, we show that a patient with unknown levels of consciousness can monitor and analyze information from their environment, in the same way as healthy individuals. We already know that up to one in five of these patients are misdiagnosed as being unconscious and this new technique may reveal that that number is even higher.” Since the Hitchcock experiment, they have tested patients using Charlie Chaplin’s Modern Times and The Lion’s Cage, which, according to Dr. Naci, have shown similar results.

If Mr. Tremblay is watching his own Brain TV, is he now seeing images of a little boy with a gun? Are the subjects of the Chaplin study imagining themselves caught in the cogs of a giant machine? Perhaps someday, through fMRI or emerging treatments, they will be able to tell us. When that day comes, what are the odds that they will report seeing the afterlife after all those years? You’d think their dead relatives would eventually return to the light so they can find something better to do.

Though many of these patients are misdiagnosed, without proper screening it’s impossible to know which ones. In my case, the minute the doctors saw the stroke damage they assumed I was beyond hope. The Glasgow Coma Scale wasn’t even performed, and it’s just a low-tech behavioral checklist. I was in a state-of-the-art hospital; imagine a patient in a less advanced facility.

My neurologist told me that the reasons I’ve recovered so well are that I was younger than the average stroke victim and most of my brain damage was in the watershed areas. Watershed areas lie between two major arteries. By the time blood reaches these sections, there’s less oxygen in it. It’s a bit like a wetland fed by two trickling tributaries. Together, they provide just enough water, but when the flow diminishes, the land between the tributaries dries up. As she explained, watershed areas don’t generally control vital functions. They die more quickly than more important regions, but they also spring back faster after damage has occurred. Ain’t evolution grand?

The “string of pearls” pattern of my watershed-area stroke damage should’ve been obvious to the neurologists examining my MRI. I can’t say why they didn’t add that evidence to my relative youth when predicting my chance of recovery. They did perform an electroencephalogram (EEG), which showed, not surprisingly, that I still had brain activity. Again, I don’t know why that didn’t figure into their evaluation. Perhaps they didn’t consider the mounting evidence that there is more awareness in the comatose and nearly—but not most sincerely—dead than previously realized.

Regarding the tennis study, “In the Blink of the Mind’s Eye” states, “This technology does more than open up the possibility of communicating with people thought to be unconscious and unreachable. It also suggests that neuroimaging must eventually be integrated into the clinical assessment of many patients who are vegetative or minimally conscious. This is a dramatic finding and a potential game-changer for clinical practice” (Finns and Schiff 2010). If that happens, there will be fewer seemingly miraculous recoveries because they won’t be such a surprise.

The perceptions of stricken brains are hardly inexplicable if awareness is more like a dimmer than an on/off switch. Moreover, NDEs can’t be proof of mind/brain separation if the brains of those experiencing them are still active. Covert cognition fills many blanks.

My OBEs felt like imagined perspective shifts, but the sensation of floating outside your body can be electrically stimulated in the brain (Blanke and Arzy 2005). Furthermore, REM intrusion, which causes blended dream states like lucid dreaming, may be responsible for the fantastical qualities of NDEs (Nelson et al. 2006). “I see it [the NDE] as an activation of certain brain regions that are also active during the dream state,” said Nelson. The study adds, “Under circumstances of peril, an NDE is more likely in those with previous REM intrusion.” I sometimes lucid dream spontaneously, as I did in the coma-dream. The hallucinations James Randi has reported seeing while awakening from surgery were probably due to REM intrusion.

While I was comatose, Keith told me about his future plans for us, most of which I remembered when I awoke. He would start telling them again, and I would say, basically, “Been there; heard that,” albeit through his doppel­ganger. Yet, at the same time Keith was telling me these things, the doctors were advising him to give up hope that I would ever fully recover. Indeed, they said rehabilitation of any sort would be futile, despite the fact that every time I experienced a new stimulus my wakefulness improved. I can’t help wondering if medically supervised stimulation might have helped me emerge from the PVS sooner—as happened with Kate Bainbridge after she was “found.” It would’ve certainly shortened my recovery. Instead, I was written off as a basket case after the MRI, which, ironically, may have jumpstarted my awareness like a dead car battery. It’s the earliest event that appeared in the coma-dream, and after the stress of the scan, I displayed new hints of arousal.

Today, I have no signs of cognitive impairment, nor have I since that first conscious moment. How embarrassing for the doctors who wrote me off. Indeed, I don’t believe I was even in a coma when I regained consciousness. The comatose don’t have sleep-wake cycles, which is why their eyes remain closed. So, I was vegetative, but not under the restrictive Merck Manual definition. Ms. Bainbridge wasn’t misdiagnosed; she fit the criteria for PVS. It’s the term that needs revision.

I used to feel sorry for people clinging to the desperate hope that their vegetative loved ones would recover. I still feel sorry for them, but their hope no longer seems so hopeless to me. I worry that life-and-death decisions are being made based on inadequate testing and incomplete knowledge. Ms. Bainbridge and others who were in the same situation have expressed similar concerns. Nurses gently suggested to my mother that my quality of life was poor, which she took as a hint that I should eventually be taken off life support.

Vegetables rarely write articles, however. My recovery is still ongoing—I was so deconditioned after the long period of complete inactivity I could barely lift my head—but my quality of life is excellent. In fact, I feel an increased sense of purpose and self-confidence. Though I don’t believe my recovery was a gift from God, I do view my second chance as a gift.

And speaking of gifts, last Christmas, Keith and I walked into the ICU with a gift basket to thank the medical personnel who saved my life. Some of them didn’t recognize me upright. On the basket, we taped a collage of pictures taken during our strength-building walks. Many of the ICU workers cried; some said my recovery was a miracle. But it was no act of God that saved my life—it was science. Massive doses of antibiotics scrubbed the Legionella from my system like an antivirus program (or should I say antibacterial program?), halting my septic shock. A respirator and dialysis bought my failing organs time, and they gradually came back online. And, after six weeks, my brain finally rebooted. The human body is a marvelously evolved machine, even though, with my bad back, I often wonder if bipedalism was such a good idea.

The doctors and nurses taking care of me were responsible for giving me this second chance, and for that I’m obviously grateful. But maybe we should be giving more respect to the amazing resilience of the human brain and be more humble about the limits of our knowledge about it. And while we’re at it, let’s not underestimate the boundless powers of imagination, where polar bear cubs churn ice cream with Big Wheels and where flying somewhere over the rainbow doesn’t require an out-of-body experience.

References

Blanke, Olaf, and Shahar Arzy. 2005. The out-of-body experience: Disturbed self-processing at the temporo-parietal junction. Neuroscientist 11(1): 16–24.

Finns, Joseph J., and Nicolas D. Schiff. 2010. In the blink of the mind’s eye. Hastings Center Report 40(3): 21–23.

Maiese, Kenneth. 2014. Vegetative state and minimally conscious state. Merck Manual Professional Version. Online at http://www.merckmanuals.com/​professional/​neurologic-disorders/​coma-and-impaired-consciousness/vegetative-state-and-minimally-conscious-state.

Monti, Martin M., Audrey Vanhaudenhuyse, Martin R. Coleman, et al. 2010. Willful modulation of brain activity in disorders of consciousness. New England Journal of Medicine 362: 579–589.

Naci, Lorina, Rhondri Cusack, Mimma Anello, et al. 2014. A common neural code for similar conscious experiences in different individuals. Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences of the United States of America 111(39): 14277–14282.

Nelson, Kevin R., Michelle Mattingly, Sherman A. Lee, et al. 2006. Does the arousal system contribute to near death experience? Neurology 66(7): 1003–1009.

Owen, Adrian M., Martin R. Coleman, M. Boly, et al. 2006. Detecting awareness in the vegetative state. Science 313(5792): 1402.

Topics: near death experience
Subjects: Parapsychology

MojoHand - wrong!

Interesting thread. I missed it the first time around.

I've always believed but you always wonder. I wondered and one day I asked my Dad what he thought about heaven and hell and he said:

"I was like you. I wondered if any of this is true until I went and sat with my Ma in the hospital while we waited for her brother to die"

Dad's uncle had been in a coma for weeks and it was time for him to go.

I asked "what happened?" and my Dad said that all of a sudden his uncle (who hadn't moved) sat straight up in bed with his arms raised in the air and shouted "MAMA!!!"

Then he peacefully laid down and passed away.

This woman thinks her personal anecdotal experience trumps everyone else's? Typical of those on the left.

I thought this was a. ".270s only" thread.

I forgot the amount of laughs he brought.

It's postmodernism where the only truth is what one decides is true for them based on how they feel.

There sure are some nutjobs on 24 hour thats for damn sure.....

I suspect Doc's purpose is not to convince or change folks, but to simply relay what he has seen along with some others.

interpret it how you will.

And if you disagree, thats cool and just like the rest of the threads, move along.

My mom's brother and a great aunt both died in 1998, both from different types of cancer. Both were very religious and very good people.

The day my aunt died, my mother and cousin and his wife were in the room with my aunt. She woke up and said "oh look at all the beautiful people in here!", and like I said there were only 3 visible people in the room. Later she asked to sit in a chair and died singing hymns.

My uncle went through all the chemo treatments and never once threw up or even got sick. When Hospice was called, they checked him into the hospital. The nurses had to ask my mother questions as he wasn't married. The nurse asked what meds he was on for pain and when my mother replied nothing she couldn't believe it. Right before he died my mom said he opened his eyes and was laughing saying " it's soo beautiful!"

There is a Heaven and hell in my humble opinion.

Watched a Nat Geo show the other day called “Return from the Dead.”
Every near-death experience has been easily repeated in the lab.
Name any NDE sensation and they have done it by tricking the brain into partially shutting down.
The show is scheduled to repeat Sunday morning.

When my Mom passed she was seeing all manner of folks, that no one else could see for about 4 days, while in the hospital and her first, and last, night in a beautiful hospice suite.

The hospice representative remarked , "it won't be long now" when I mentioned her unseen visitors. It seems it's common for many. Just before I left her hospice room around 10, for what would be her last night, she pointed and winked to a little girl I could not see. When they called me at 5ish the next morning to say she had passed, I went right over and found her with the most peaceful beautiful smile on her face with both of her hands under her head.

Of course, I wished I had spent that night with her as I had the previous several in the hospital, but seeing her the way she left this world, told me she was at perfect peace and that was the greatest gift she ever gave me.

Certainly,both Heaven and Hell are real and they will become the most impactful reality to all. They are also forever. Choose wisely.

My critique of Doc's original post would be that clearly, a sudden arrhythmia of the type he describes puts the brain into some kinda SOMETHING; as evidenced by his statement that there's 7 seconds of oxygen (I.E., consciousness) that is going unused so to speak.

A brain experiencing a seizure or whatever it is that's happening there is not a reliable witness. Clearly, this isn't "death". It's a loss of consciousness precipitated by a massive nervous system jolt. Which sounds unpleasant as HELL, which could certainly explain why some experience, well, HELL.

Or not. I try to keep an open mind. But I don't see what Doc posted as "truth" per se; I do see strong indications of it affirming previously held beliefs that the good doctor had.

I see the same in you.

EXCEPT for the NDE of kids. Kids that don't know, have never seen, know no names, etc....

But for those that don't believe there are plenty of other threads going on......

Bristoe, could you explain that?

I'm saying that clearly the brain isn't "dying" in the cases Doc relates; it's instead going into a state of some sort. A seizure or similar.

That's not really an affirmation of my beliefs; it's more a statement of physical reality... no?

I'm a believer in heaven and hell but I'm real skeptical of all the near death stuff. It doesn't seem scriptural, and I think there is tremendous possibility for spiritual deceit.

What I can say. I have not seen as many pass as Doc.

I feel in my line, I've seen more than most pass. In fact quite a dang few.

the quote of why SOME experience hell... that experience seems RARE. VERY RARE. I figured I'd never see it. I've talked to other doctors about it ,they agree its VERY rare.

I can understand the skepticism about the good NDE from most adults, but I'd bet cash, and lots of it, that if the jolt produces a bad feeling, it must do it well under 1% of the time...

But then some feel democrats don't want your guns either?

Clinically, damage starts at ... 5-6 minutes deprivation IIRC. I have been in on revivals that were out longer than that for sure, and the brain certainly has been dying.

Hell to be precise once you start to loose blood or oxygen, you are dying. You may not DIE, but you certainly are headed that way..

Think about all the crazy things you've dreamed about. Consider how something as simple as cold medicine, the wrong vitamins, or what someone watched on TV before bed can mess with their dreams....then extrapolate what almost dying could do to one's brain state.....

Our reasons may be different, but I don't grant any revelatory power to near death experiences either.

You said Doc has preconceived ideas,...you have preconceived ideas.

As for Physical reality,..you didn't give any scientific explanation of physical reality.

You just kind of stammered around saying, "Well,...this happened,..then that happened,..and then the other thing happened because of something,..but basically it just sounds like Doc has some preconceived ideas."

You've got an opinion,...that's all.

Of course, having said what I said, I know of someone who right before she died woke up and spoke very clearly of her unborn grandson and having already met him. Maybe not that unusual except that her daughter hadn't told anyone she was pregnant yet and the dying old lady had Alzheimer's and had been out of it for years.

Don't forget that Doc himself said there's 7 seconds of consciousness (oxygen) in the brain if the heart stops. That's the physical reality I'm talking about. Physically, someone who goes into arrhythmia then is shocked back to a normal sinus rhythm mere seconds later- again, as stated by Doc in his OP- that person did not die. They may have experienced something, but death it was not, at least in terms of the physical realities that Doc himself outlines.

I don't deny the possibility of heaven and hell. But what a brain experiences during a time that all hell is breaking loose in the autonomous nervous system, AND their brain goes into some sort of "state" that clearly not physical death, is hardly proof.

There're lots of things in our lives, in the world, and in the universe, that aren't mentioned in scripture.

Ive never dreamt about someone/something I didn't know.....or places I did not know.....

7 seconds. I can't even put an AED on someone in 7 seconds and have it go through its paces.....

I don't even know for sure, that in an ER, if the pads where there, could they charge em to shock someone in 7 seconds....

I have. In fact I'm certain I've never met a zombie.

I hear Italian hell is the WORSE. You are stuck in an Irish bar for eternity and every day is St. Paddy's Day.

Kinda wish I was Italian...

I have dremt about many people and places I've never visited nor seen.

Easily.

I once dreamed of a girl who I hadn't seen in years. We weren't all that close before she moved. I knew no one who knew her. There was no reason for me to even think about her, much less dream about her. The very next day, I practically ran into her walking down the street. I've tried to explain that one my whole life.

JoeBob, I had an experience last year that simply defied coincidence. I've only shared it with a few close friends. It was WEIRD. Rattled me pretty good.

I am not an a-spiritual person. Is that a word? However, when talking of things in the paranormal realm, like heaven and hell, I approach it from a skeptical viewpoint, largely because much of not MOST of "religion" is just such blatant pandering to what folks want to believe, in addition to serving the interests of those in charge of said religions and/or the governments in league with those religions.

Jeff, The fact you use "spiritual-person" and religious interchangeably is indicative of a very confused person. Some of the most spiritual people I've known had little use for organized religion. Conversely, some of the most religious people I've known were the least "spiritual" most hollow souls. Organized religion has done a lot of bad PR because of mans greed. Please don't turn your back on God and his spiritual creation because of church and the folks that take up space in its pews. I grew up in church but over time and experience I realized my relationship with God was a personal one. One that didn't require other people present nor my attendance in church. I rarely attend church in the usual sense but when I'm on the ocean or in the mountains I'm as close to God as I've ever been. Certainly I'm closer than I am when sitting next to hypocrites and cheaters.

In any case I hope you'll find the spirituality that I believe to be an important component to the human animal. Let go of the disdain for religion and seek God.

Aces, I think we are on the same page. It's quite possible to be spiritual without being dogmatically religious.

My comment had to do with the concepts of heaven and hell, as presented to us by a religion. Those who are in the business of selling religion would have a hard time moving their product if it didn't include such features as "an eternity of blissful afterlife with those you love!" and "72 virgins!" and so on... and those in the business of control would find it more difficult without the notion of a fiery lake of eternal suffering for disbelievers. And of course, those in the business of selling religion are usually, not always, but usually, also in the business of control.

So..... when something is put forth as PROOF of heaven or hell, it carries that baggage.

Back on topic.... I'd bet the farm that if the brains of those folks suffering these arrhythmias and "dying" were hooked up to those gadgets that show neural activity, they'd scan as anything BUT dead. They'd be lit up like an Xmas tree, and I'd venture, very similarly to how they light up if they were having a seizure.

Jeff, read the book cited in the OP and then get back to me on that bet.

Oh, and can I get some details on the size of your farm, acreage, water, soil conditions, buildings, etc? I want to start planning early.

Interesting, they claim some folks dream more and more vividly. I rarely dream IE that I can recall and as far as I can recall i've never dreamed about a place or person I do not or have not known.

The dreams have been doing some weird things as I recall, but the folks and places I knew.

Doc, you don't want the farm. One big pain in the butt. The shop needs a new roof, the barn stalls need shoveled out, the chickens are in full rebellion over getting their wings clipped to keep them out of the garden, and the Missus is a slave driver.

I was referring specifically to the case you mention of the "lights out defib"... is that what the book refers to?

antelope_sniper,

A guy I knew when I was a kid went to Africa. He met a witch doctor and they became friends. The witch doctor was old and became very ill so they put him on a bed or pallet. After awhile, even though he was extremely weak and almost dead, he raised himself up a little with his elbows and tried to push himself away from the foot of his pallet. He screamed out,
“Help me! Help me! My feet are sliding into the fire! Help me! Now my legs are in the fire!” With those words, he collapsed and died.

This happened in the mid 1950's before missionaries went there. One could correctly or incorrectly assume he never heard of Hell.

Christians have been in Africa for a long time. Your American friend was in his location, you think that in 1950 he was the first White person to meet this Witch Doctor?

Based on your story it sounds like they were speaking English? I"m not seeing much to support your supposition he'd never heard of Hell.

Roost,

I think this may be another example of times when attempting to extend our experiences to others may lead us astray. As another example, I dream in color, but others claim to only dream in black and white.

As for how often do we dream, some scientist believe we have a tendency to remember our dreams more when we do not complete a full REM cycle. The better you sleep, the less you remember. Perhaps you are have a tendency to sleep well most nights?

AS
Paul spoke the language. He translated into English for me and I quoted his English.

Roost,

I think this may be another example of times when attempting to extend our experiences to others may lead us astray. As another example, I dream in color, but others claim to only dream in black and white.

As for how often do we dream, some scientist believe we have a tendency to remember our dreams more when we do not complete a full REM cycle. The better you sleep, the less you remember. Perhaps you are have a tendency to sleep well most nights? [/quote]

I dont' sleep well at all. I rarely ever get more than an hour at a time. If I get 3 hours at one time I am extremely thankful.

I have no clue about color, I suppose since I don't have a clue its black and white?

Who knows I may dream something tonight where I dont' know the folks or the place.

Funny seems like my dreams are always something thats happened, something that will happen or is planned in the future or at weirdest, folks and places that I know, but don't add up, IE the scenario isn't planned or has not happened...

Lots of folks have good reason to not acknowledge or to be dismissive on the subject of hell. But, it's real, whether you like it or not.

I dont' sleep well at all. I rarely ever get more than an hour at a time. If I get 3 hours at one time I am extremely thankful.

I have no clue about color, I suppose since I don't have a clue its black and white?

Who knows I may dream something tonight where I dont' know the folks or the place.

Funny seems like my dreams are always something thats happened, something that will happen or is planned in the future or at weirdest, folks and places that I know, but don't add up, IE the scenario isn't planned or has not happened...

[/quote]


I'm glad I qualified my previous statement with some scientist believe....The processes behind the subconscious creation of images with in the brain seem to have a wide variance of results. I've also dreamed of things that have come to pass. I've dreamed of my wife wrecking our current vehicle, but since she's wrecked every other vehicle we've purchased since we've been married, it really wasn't all the prophetic when it came true.

Many of mine don't make much sense either, to the point that within the dream I'll realize it makes so little sense, it has to be a dream...

That all depends on how you define it.

The classic Zoroastrian Hell as adopted by the Christians, or some wider definition such as the humans create for themselves on this earth, or even withing the confines of their own mind?

I'm not interested in being talked out of my personal experiences, even though any attempt would fail. What I've seen, felt and heard can be explained in more logical and scientific ways but only to a point. I'm proud of my faith and even though some, like antelope sniper, want to explain it to me or denigrate it, my faith doesn't waver. My faith coupled with my experiences aren't up for debate. I'm glad I have the faith that I do. I wish everyone had it.

Hell is eternity without God. Heaven is Eternity with God.

Succinct and accurate in one sentence. Now we'll wait for his long winded reply in his attempt to show how smart he is......

Prophetic, to say the least.

I feel sorry for guys like that.

By those definitions, you are all ready in Hell.

That is a Jehovah Witness explanation. Now I know a lot here are down on them, but I enjoy talking to them. They have a lot of beliefs that are different than mine, but a lot are the same. I was talking to a neighbor the other day, a Baptist, about some things in the bible, and some things that I have heard on TV, about some things that were left out of the Bible when it was put together. He stated that He had to accept that God had the people that put the bible together, put the right stuff in there. I pointed out that man, being man, might have not been that pure and that if all believed the same, there would only be one religion. I don't think any minds were changed, but we had a good civil talk. miles

LOL! Thanks for the dose of reality, Jeff! It's true, I've done enough farmin' to know I don't want to be doing any more of it!

The book cited in the OP has nothing to do with defib. It's a really unique case in the NDE literature. I think it addresses the doubting tommies' arguments pretty well, but you'd have to read it yourself. It's well worth doing, if for no reason other than to satisfy your curiosity.

Okay, what were their real names, no one was named Paul, John, Luke, Mark, Matthew etc etc in that part of the world.

Or are those translated names for our feel good religion based on fear?..............................fear the wrath and pay 10% or else. BFS.

There is a 50/50 chance there is or is not a God. I prefer the safe bet.

I don't buy mans BS interpretation of the subject, near every BS lying thieving lowdown POS sombitch I've ever ran across had, was, is, talking about our heavenly father, Jesus Christ!

My big fear of hell is that I'll have to spend eternity there with a BUNCH of Christians and Catholics...

Dats a BIG nochitter.

You likely are not incorrect.

Back to dreaming..... amazingly last night I dreamed and I remebered both. Both were not color. Both were people and places I knew. Neither incident happened to me as of now, and neither will.

But still have not dreamed of unknown stuff.

But at least the dream meant I slept well, and I did for the first time in a LONG time, I managed almost 5 hours at one shot.

I slept 9 hrs like a rock last night Rost, wonder what kind on inner peace I posses?

Well done Doc.

Investigations into the OP account...

http://www.skeptic.com/insight/proof-of-heaven/




See my sig lines!

If I could do that, I'd have some peace I know! LOL.

The only place I can sleep most of the night is in Alaska for some reason. When we get there, and crawl in the sleeping bags, its just natural to be able to sleep a full night every night we are there....

That's why I never understood islam, those rabid idiots commit horrible acts on something they believe is going to happen, not for example, something they know for fact, and can see with their very own eyes, like for example, I know, and can see without a shadow of any doubt I'm typing a reply to your post.

May be cause you have a 44 mag bear pistol in each jammy pocket?

That's make me sleep real easy................

If you've never been in delirium tremens, you ain't been nowhere and you ain't seen nothing........ including Hell.

Are those caused by mans weakness to unnecessary, self inflicted binges of drug or alcohol?

Carolyn in charge of the 10mm. I just put my 338-06 in the tent with us anyway... LOL.

Got a lot more here at home, so I'd think we'd sleep better here. LOL

Thankfully no,I suspect that ride is not fun at all.

I've not been addicted to anything ever, so far. Just watching my friends and boss deal with tobacco is tough enough. Boss was trying to quit some time ago, I finally offered to by his snuff for a full year if he'd just start again.

If you think it's a bet, you are really missing the point.

I try to live in a BS free environment, as far as religion, I don't wake at night with the sweat infused guilt ridden feeling to send my preacher 5K cause God told him to buy a jet airplane.

Helps to get really nice deep sleeping.

Very wrong.

No I don[t think it's a bet

I can't wait to tell my father (a decorated Vietnam Veteran) that he's never been anywhere or seen anything until he becomes a junkie.




Travis

I'm guessing he would know what hell looks like...


Either that or Disney World on a hot june day when all the kids are out of school....

I have no idea what the Jo Hos believe about heaven and hell. They broke off from Christianity, formed their own religion, and changed many, but not all of the theology.

I have no doubt that each of us will have to face God in our lifetime.

Even if your 50/50 proposition was correct (which I don't think it is), Then you also have to get the right god.....So now your odds are way below 50%

Here's the key paragraph:

Dittrich’s research paints an incredibly damning picture. As Coyne sums up, “the story looks like a sham, confected by a once-brilliant but now failed neurosurgeon who reclaims his time in the spotlight by pretending that he saw heaven. ”

Supporting evidence is in the above link.


And the conclusion:

So, if we add all this up, we have a neurosurgeon who makes fundamental mistakes about how the brain works, because he is not a neuroscientist or neurophysiologist—and that is a BIG difference. On top of this, he has a history of falsifying records and was in trouble with numerous malpractice suits, so his medical career was effectively over. And when Dittrich checked with other people, many important details in the book turned out clearly false.

This does not seem to trouble Alexander or any of his followers who want to believe him. They, like so many others, are willing to be duped out of their money for the book and make him rich, all while he tells them fairy stories to confirm their beliefs and make them feel good. It wouldn’t be the first time some religious figure separated people from their money—but perhaps the first time it was done by a neurosurgeon in a white lab coat.

Good for you Rost. I didn't manage a 5 hour shot last night.

I'm with you on sleeping in the fresh mountain air.....

The wheel is turning and you can't slow it down;
Can't let go, and you can't hold on;
Can't get off, and you can't stand still:
If the thunder don't get you, then the lightning will!

-------

I don't personify God. God is the great swirling "what is". I came from there, and I'll go back to there. I didn't possess and individual identity before, and i won't after. I, as an individual, will not exist for eternity in Heaven. How selfish would that be! I will, however, rejoin the big dance. And that is an HONOR. Spin me around, whirl me up, let the "next guy" use this matter, this energy, that is currently "me". I had my run.

Another lyric:

The things that I am made of may jump when I say go;
But I know I'm made of sunshine, stone and water.
And even though I know some day, gonna lie down, gonna fade away
I will rise up, fresh and clean, in some completely different way!

I believe much evil springs from the notion of an immortal soul.

Would that be in June or July? --- Mel

gunner500,



Your post almost made me laugh. My friends name was Paul. Even if he told me his witch doctor friends name I would not remember it.

Like the notion that someone blow up a bunch of people that think differently then themselves, and be rewarded with an eternity in Paradise?

What could possibly go wrong with that?

There's been a lot of evil in modern world history that had nothing to do with the notion of an immortal soul...the regimes of Stalin, Hitler, Mao, Pol Pot...where many millions were killed during each regime, and 2 World Wars...where many millions were killed during each war. None of it had anything to do with the notion of an immortal soul.

I did not say it was the root of all evil, just demonstrated one common failing of that mode of thinking.

As for the regimes you mention, I'll say you are making a good case for small, limited government.

That is their description of Hell, from their pamphlet. They believe that in the end, except for a certain number that is listed in the Bible, that heaven for the rest will be here on earth. I don't know much about the religion but did look over some pamphlets while sitting and watching a GPS unit for long periods of time. Boredom will make you do things like that. miles

How many billions of people on our earth maintain a notion of an immortal soul, and what percentage of those billions are 'blowing up a buncha people who think differently than them so they can be rewarded in an afterlife'...and then show us how you've "demonstrated" that doing so is a "common failing of that mode of thinking"...?

The show was worth a second look. As a lifelong Agnostic who believes what he see in nature, but knows he will never understand it all; I had hoped the the NDE people were on to something.

Science never has all the answers. There was little in the show to explain NDE of kids. But there is a preponderance of evidence explaining what happens to the mind when the brain begins to shut down.

One evil I will cite, inherent in the notion of an immortal soul, is that of being separate and discrete rather than being a part of "what is".

I am proud and in awe of where I'm from, profoundly grateful for the run I'm getting, and it will be my great honor to give myself back to "what is" for recycling.

A common core "religious" belief, so core that that it's often hard for folks to even SEE it in themselves, is that they are this special little being with someone watching over them and the world is revolving around THEM. Evil lies therein. I don't believe that. I came from a place of beauty, and someday, I get to return to it! That's a scientific fact, no God required, yet it's a profoundly calming viewpoint, if understood and accepted.

mid to late september so far generally... June/July gets hot in the tents at times.

What "common core religious belief" are you exposed to..."so core"...that those practitioners of it feel as if "the world is revolving around THEM"...?

Sleeping good in the north country is attributed to low RBC counts and hypovolemia. Mosquitoes are perhaps natures tryptophan...

Me too

Let's deal with the core of Christianity for a moment.

God created the entire Universe, billions of Galaxies, each with billions of starts, so he could have a relationship with one primate species on one spec of dirt. Keep in mind for centuries this narcissism extended to a belief that the earth was the center of the universe. God has the entire Universe to tend to, yet Christians believe God cares about with whom you sleep with, an in what positions, and if you paid the right priest for the right appropriations ahead of time.

The core belief Jeff speaks of is the narcissist belief that you are so special, the creator of all this, that looks just like you, somehow wants or needs a personal relationship with YOU.

He's a white, American Christian...of course he has the 'right god', dontcha know?

What I was referring to in the nights are pretty short that time of year. But we catch up on our sleep during winter. --- Mel

Well said, Sniper.

Further, Occam tells us that the simpler explanation of observed events is usually the correct one. What could possibly be more convoluted than our mainstream, established religions? And further still, common sense dictates that when an explanation or description of observed reality is utterly self-serving, it's very likely to be just a human construct that is being used to placate otherwise difficult realities.

Doncha know, the 'Universe' as you described it is the same red herring that God created, like the fossil record, to test the faith of true believers.

Jeff_O,



Scentific fact is established by observation, testing, verification, repeatablity. What you have posted is a self serving ignorant opinion. I use the work ignorant because you have not died and come back to tell us a TRUE observation.

antelope_sniper,



This shows your lack of education of the Christian faith. You listen to or read only those who agree with your position. The reason the universe appears to be infinite to us finites is for the God of the Bible to show us His Infinite Intelligent Energy is beyond mere mortal's concept. God's Word tells us He spans the stars with His right hand.

You want us to believe everything came from nothing which became something, all by itself. And this nothing which became something produced conscienceness in humans who somehow randomly believe in morality and beauty. You are constantly willfully ignorant of the basic scientific concept of an effect can not be equal to or greater than its cause.

I have only gone back a couple of pages and feel pretty much un-inspired by the thread.

That said...anything ringman has to say will be bull-[bleep], and the rest of it boils down to "there is God, or there is not God", the choice is yours alone and who gives a toss what any other believes on the subject.

If ringman says it is daylight at 11.00 am then it would pay to walk outside and check because it is London to a brick the bastard is wrong.

Jeff_O,



You bring up an interesting idea. Based on Occam's razor tell us which is a better explanation. Crick and Watson discovered the DNA molecule. Because they just can't abide the Creator they invented "pan sprmia" to explains it presents to on earth. That is spacemen brought it. That of course begs the question, where did they come from and adinfinitum... or to believe in the scientific concept of cause and effect? That is an Infinite Being, beyond your comprehension called it all into existence by His Personal Power.

Before you can use the Bible as evidence you must establish it's credibility, which you have failed to do, so there is no reason to believe your above assertion.

As for you erroneous understanding of cause and effect, I've already explained this to you in detail. You should really look up "butterfly effect", and "snowball effect".

We need to establish the credibility of the bible? GMAFB.

If the bible is not a credible source when discussing Christianity with a militant atheist then I suppose us Christians should be terribly worried about the veracity of the book while believing in the atheist. Lolol

I personally believe what is taught in the Christian Holy Bible about heaven, hell and God.

To all who disagree, someday we'll see who's right, won't we?

Yep, in plain language.

But this thread has developed into another "Full Moon" thread.
So lunar ramblings pervade.

Well I certainly don't have the definite answer, just like everyone else. Still, if I had to bet I'd bet on everyone being wrong, by more than a little. We haven't even figured out everything about our earth and environment yet, nevermind our solar system and then the rest of space. What's the chances someone got the whole God/creation etc thing just right? If such a thing exists, could we even fully understand it? Most people can't even fully understand quantum physics or the like.

I believe a creator, I just don't know for sure what the nature of that creator is. I have ideas and beliefs, but am fully aware that some or all of them may be wrong. I don't KNOW, and neither does anyone else. If they say they do then perhaps the don't understand what KNOW means. Some have died and come back with amazing stories, and maybe they know...but maybe it's all a trick of the brain. I don't think so, but it's a possibility. And if you accept one NDE then can you discount the rest, the ones that don't match up with your idea of what should have happened? Don't know, but it's all very interesting nevertheless,and hopefully one day I KNOW.

I actually have zero issue with the notion of superior beings, or that they might have seeded life here. I don't call them "God". I call them aliens.

mojohand, thanks for quoting the story from skeptics.com; it certainly puts an entirely different light on Alexander's book!

I didn't read the book that critically, but on the other hand I have to say the critics may be reading it with an excess of zeal. I'm not sure I have the time or energy to chase down their accusations and assertions to be sure they are being truthful themselves. It seems to be necessary in this day and age of internet "investigative reporting".

Again, thanks for bringing up the critique. At the very least it pops a lot of air out of the Alexander balloon.

AcesNeights,

The unbelievers trust in their ignorant prejudice more than science. Consider, in ancient literature, the number of manuscripts available and the years between the manuscripts and the time the evens occurred. For the objective scientists there is nothing like the Bible in number of manuscripts and accuracy.

I remember lecture about three archaeologists, Drs. Nelson Glueck, Clifford Wilson, and William Albright, on a dig in the Middle East. The only Christian in the bunch was Clifford Wilson. But they all used the Bible to help them find dig sights and to date the dig sights. Gluick, being the most antagonistic, admitted something to the effect, "Those Jews were careful historians."

I was watching a program about history. There was a panel of five professors or scientists from different countries. None were even remotely religious. Something about Jesus came up. The woman from Russia suggested Jesus was based on a myth. The other four ganged up on her with legal historical facts that she could not ever begin to refute.

The atheist use a tool we are all guilty of using. It is called ignorant prejudice.

LOL, you gotta bear with me... we won't be able to infil until 4 years and 8 more months, then we'll learn the local tongue. LOL

That presumes there is something of us intelligent that survives death. If not, there is nothing the experience anything, let alone and afterlife.

Jeff_O,



I may not have spelled "adinfititum" correctly. Maybe someone will correct my spelling so you can understand it. The idea of spacemen bringing the DNA to earth still begs the question, where did they come from, adinfinitum. Eventually, an intelligent person wants to know where the first one came from.

THis is getting to be like the folks that come to the LR forum and scream you can't shoot that far because I can't shoot that far.

Fine, shoot short, and play your game but leave the rest of us alone. You are not doing any good trying to convince us that we don't know how to shoot. LOL

Not really, since main stream Biblical Scholars now accept that Moses and the Exodus are fiction.

No they actually don't.

Rost,

I'm not saying you can't shoot that far, I'm saying you need to chronograph your loads and check your drop charts on paper vs. taking the word of some ancient Mesopotamian clay tablet.

Main stream? AS, with all due respect bud, you really are clueless about what you don't know and you should just quit while you are behind.

It's curious that like a fly you and others who don't believe keep coming back to threads like this to utter complete completely ridiculous comments.

antelope_sniper,



Like I already posted: You read and listen to only those who agree with your position. Can you discredit the three archaeologists I posted? Please try. You will be famous.

I just spoke with God.

He said all y'all mutha fugka's are going to hell.

He's cool with me though.

Why do you, or Jeff_O, create any of the things that you two have created...ya'll's children, for example...?

...... aaaaand this is what I like about Mr. Rocket.

Rost,

I'm not saying you can't shoot that far, I'm saying you need to chronograph your loads and check your drop charts on paper vs. taking the word of some ancient Mesopotamian clay tablet. [/quote]


I shot a lot of midrange and some lr stuff over the years.

I never used a chrono other than initially to get a feeling of where I was at.

Then I just did what the load told me.

But your point is going by what I see, not what someone tells me.

I"ve seen more than enough to be comfortable in my beliefs.

I'm sorry that you have not. But in the end, even though my job is to spread the word, I will discuss this with folks that have an open mind. Those that have closed minds so to speak, have to fend for themselves.

I've often said, the tenants of "Christianity" basically teach good things, to repent and be sorry and to believe. To be a better person.

You really can't go wrong with taht even if the belief in the end was in nothing.

Beats the hell out of folks that think they die, have no responsibility and could care less what good they do for earth and others along the way.

Worse yet those that believe that you and I should be dead since we dont' believe the other name...

It's pretty easy to find a source with lots of links to the research, you don't have to dig very deep:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moses#Historicity

Historicity
The current scholarly consensus is that Moses is a figure of legend, not of history.[13] Some scholars, like Frank Cross, consider it possible that a "Moses group" might have made a transit along the route from Egypt to Edom around the 13th-12th centuries.[27] No Egyptian sources mention Moses or the events of Exodus-Deuteronomy, nor has any archaeological evidence been discovered in Egypt or the Sinai wilderness to support the story in which he is the central figure.[28] The story of his being placed in a wicker basket covered with tar and pitch and left among reeds on the waters of the Nile (Exodus 2:3) picks up a familiar motif in Near Eastern mythological accounts of the ruler who rises from humble origins. Thus Sargon of Akkad's Sumerian account of his origins runs;
My mother, the high priestess, conceived; in secret she bore me
She set me in a basket of rushes, with bitumen she sealed my lid
She cast me into the river which rose over me.[29]

Memorial of Moses, Mount Nebo, Jordan
The tradition of Moses as a lawgiver and culture hero of the Israelites may go back to the 7th-century sources of the Deuteronomist, which might conserve earlier traditions. Kenneth Kitchen, a solitary voice among British Egyptologists,[30] argues that there is an historic core behind the Exodus, with Egyptian corvée labour exacted from Hebrews during the imperialist control exercised by the Egyptian Empire over Canaan from the time of the Thutmosides down to the revolt against Merenptah and Rameses III.[31] William Albright believed in the essential historicity of the biblical tales of Moses and the Exodus, accepting however that the core narrative had been overlaid by legendary accretions.[32] Biblical minimalists such as Philip R. Davies and Niels Peter Lemche regard all biblical books, and the stories of an Exodus, united monarchy, exile and return as fictions composed by a social elite in Yehud in the Persian period or even later, the purpose being to legitimize a return to indigenous roots.[33]
Despite the imposing fame associated with Moses, no source mentions him until he emerges in texts associated with the Babylonian exile.[32] A theory developed by Cornelius Tiele in 1872, which had proved influential, and still held in regard by modern scholars, argued that Yahweh was a Midianite god, introduced to the Israelites by Moses, whose father-in-law Jethro was a Midianite priest.[34] It was to such a Moses that Yahweh reveals his real name, hidden from the Patriarchs who knew him only as El Shaddai,[35] Against this view is the modern consensus that most of the Israelites were native to Palestine.[36] Martin Noth argued that the Pentateuch uses the figure of Moses, originally linked to legends of a Transjordan conquest, as a narrative bracket or late redactional device to weld together 4 of the 5, originally independent, themes of that work.[32][37] Manfred Görg,[38] and Rolf Krauss[39] the latter in a somewhat sensationalist manner,[40] have suggested that the Moses story is a distortion or transmogrification of the historical pharaoh Amenmose (ca. 1200 BCE), who was dismissed from office and whose name was later simplified to msy (Mose). Aidan Dodson regards this hypothesis as "intriguing, but beyond proof."[41]
The Exodus narrative, which in traditional chronology begins with the impossible date of 1496 BCE,[42] itself has resisted numerous attempts to verify it or ground it in archaeological digs, which have been abandoned as a "fruitless pursuit," since the evidence points to an indigenous origin for Israelites.[43] Attempts to locate the yam sūp (Reed sea/Red Sea) as described in Exodus have failed.[44] The figure of 600,000 adult males described in Exodus 12:37, or 603,550 at Exodus 38:26, would imply a total population of Israelites in flight through the desert for 40 years of 2 to 2.5 million people, when the total population of Egypt at the time was 3 to 4.5 million. Had such a catastrophic demographic outflow taken place, it would have been recorded in Egyptian writings.[42][44][45][46][47]
The name King Mesha of Moab has been linked to that of Moses:Mesha also is associated with narratives of an exodus and a conquest, and several motifs in stories about him are shared with the Exodus tale and that regarding Israel's war with Moab (2 Kings:3). Moab rebels against oppression, like Moses, leads his people out of Israel, as Moses does from Egypt, and his first-born son is slaughtered at the wall of Kir-hareseth as the firstborn of Israel are condemned to slaughter in the Exodus story, "an infernal passover that delivers Mesha while wrath burns against his enemies".[48]
An Egyptian version of the tale that crosses over with the Moses story is found in Manetho who, according to the summary in Josephus, wrote that a certain Osarseph, Heliopolitan priest, became overseer of a band of lepers, when Amenophis, following indications by Amenhotep, son of Hapu, had all the lepers in Egypt quarantined in order to cleanse the land so that he might see the gods. The lepers are bundled into Avaris, the former capital of the Hyksos, where Osarseph prescribes for them everything forbidden in Egypt, while proscribing everything permitted in Egypt. They invite the Hyksos to reinvade Egypt, rule with them for 13 years – Osarseph then assumes the name Moses - and are then driven out.[49]

An intelligent person might want to know that, yes. A religious person might attribute it to God, based on faith in their doctrine...

None of this really matters much to me other than as an interesting debate; folks believe what they believe and that's fine by me. Where it does really matter to me is when the practicers of religion try to bring it into the public policy realm. That chaps my ass.

Or when people attempt to use their religion as an excuse to attempt to control others.

Religion is about control?! No WAY!


Rost I like your post and can't disagree. That's what I think is GOOD about religion.

However, ask yourself this- I'm not a believer, but I get up every day and do the right thing.... why would I do that? What in MY philosophy would lead me to live that way? Because it's not by accident, nor am I inherently "good", particularly.

PS- when you move to AK, can I come up and visit your igloo and have pleasant theological discussions and whack some critters?

I shot a lot of midrange and some lr stuff over the years.

I never used a chrono other than initially to get a feeling of where I was at.

Then I just did what the load told me.

But your point is going by what I see, not what someone tells me.

I"ve seen more than enough to be comfortable in my beliefs.

I'm sorry that you have not. But in the end, even though my job is to spread the word, I will discuss this with folks that have an open mind. Those that have closed minds so to speak, have to fend for themselves.

I've often said, the tenants of "Christianity" basically teach good things, to repent and be sorry and to believe. To be a better person.

You really can't go wrong with taht even if the belief in the end was in nothing.

Beats the hell out of folks that think they die, have no responsibility and could care less what good they do for earth and others along the way.

Worse yet those that believe that you and I should be dead since we dont' believe the other name...[/quote]

Rost,

As I've said before, I do not consider all religions, or all Christians equal. What matters is how people choose to permit their religion/philosophy to inform their actions. I enjoy the debate with you, but like Scot, your really "not the Christian I'm looking for". Your Christianity seem to have minimal negative effects on your understanding of THIS reality. In addition, you do not seem to place so much emphasis on the next life that you neglect this one, nor the other people in it. Overall, you don't appear to be on the eye raising side of the equation.

Lemme get to AK first. LOL

RE what makes you good? I dunno, but without some form of responsibility, why would I worry about what I do?

I"m sure my education from young up, in religion, and even though we don't go to a church currently, we still strongly believe, is part of the reason thats been ingrained in me to help. Help with about anything and generally I don't want anything in return.

Likely why I volunteer so much.

You start to look at city life these days and we are heading the wrong direction quickly and because of no reason to act with responsibility and compassion to your fellow beings.

Whether you like religion or not, it tries its best to better society, and thats not a bad thing.

Hanging around a bunch of medical folks and I think thats often why I'm exposed on our calls and runs and such, to the fact that there has to be something else.

And if you think dead can't come back to life.... I only have to look at the dead seeds I put in my garden every spring....

Rost,

As I've said before, I do not consider all religions, or all Christians equal. What matters is how people choose to permit their religion/philosophy to inform their actions. I enjoy the debate with you, but like Scot, your really "not the Christian I'm looking for". Your Christianity seem to have minimal negative effects on your understanding of THIS reality. In addition, you do not seem to place so much emphasis on the next life that you neglect this one, nor the other people in it. Overall, you don't appear to be on the eye raising side of the equation.

[/quote]

I don't like folks that stir the pot just to stir either, although thats not exactly what you are doing either totally.

FWIW I do believe in the next life and its very important to me in many ways.

But I also realize that I may have some names wrong and some things not exactly like I've heard or read... but I still believe in being good and being rewarded and being able to make this run again but in a perfect life next time.

Eye raising doesn't accomplish nearly as much as quiet conversations... IMHO...

The ministers that pound the pulpit and preach hell fire and brimstone.... I don't listen to them a second time.... but I damn sure now am totally clear there is hellfire and brimstone.

You say tries to make society better, but perhaps we should ask not about it's proclaimed intent, but it's actual effects. Organized religion has gone to great measures to maintain it's dominance, suppressing idea's that could threaten their position. You have to look no further then this very thread to see the YEC's and the effects of blind faith on the willingness of some to comprehend science. Look how it's used in the Middle East. Many of then are not using it to "make society better", but to maintain their own positions of power.

But I'm not aware of you doing stupid things as a result of this belief.

We don't need to take these accident victims to the hospital, just say a few prayers, they will be fine.....naaaa, that does't sound like you.

Thanks for overtaking and ruining a great thread, again. You just can't help taking a shlt on any thread dealing with religion or afterlife can you?

He's a real gem isn't he? At least he's consistent. I put that loser on ignore months ago.

AS, AS, why is this eating on you so?

A darn good question. Glad you asked that.

I hear crickets...

Ed

if you don't want to discuss your faith, don't post about it on an outdoors forum where there are different opinions on the subject...

How,

By taking you out of your comfort zone and making you think?

There is no doubt at all, in my mind, that in "organized" religion, the devil shows up as humans that get involved.

We are supposed to keep an eye out for that and realize and sort it out due to that.

Its why at one place we went, a couple of ministers were fired at times...

And it caused us when the locals did not see it, to change churches for some time.

BTW God taught me, he taught the docs and nurses etc.....

you know about the one where he sent a rescue truck to a flooding house, a boat and a helicopter before the folks drowned.

You do have to see, you cannot be blind.

Thats why I"m going with the ER ride... because God provided folks trained to take care of this stuff.

I"m not a scientologist waiting on things to happen, we have to help ourselves along.

Does that mean that if you are not ready to argue incessantly you should keep your mouth shut and never discuss anything in public?

I'd say that was coercion. That ideology is meant to deter people you may disagree with from having a conversation with like-minded people. If you don't agree, STFU and move on.

Antelope Sniper and a couple of others, such as yourself, don't like the subject, so you try to make it as uncomfortable as possible for people to have a discussion.

THAT, is juvenile. Childish, not child-like.

If you really don't like the subject, ignore the post or put the poster on "ignore", that way you won;t be tortured with another person's epistemology.

No one is holding a gun to your head and making you read the posts. You have no valid point.

Ed

I withdrew my earlier post, thanks for noticing.

In addition, this is a public forum. The only person who owns anything on it is Rick.

Lolol...,yeah 'cause that's what you did. You give yourself too much credit, far, far too much credit.

That, is the ultimate condescension, right there. That implies that "believers" are not thinkers, that they have not delved deeply into the subject matter already without you and are incapable of reaching the same conclusion you have.

You keep berating and jumping into matters that only serve to drive others away. You are not "enlightening" anyone on the subject of faith, you are only acting in a selfish, arrogant manner.

Ed

and why don't you put 'Sniper on 'Ignore' instead of whining?

I did see just the period remaining where your earlier post was and did not know it was you that had removed it. As far as I knew, Rick had edited it.

As to this being a public forum, just because you CAN jump in and continue to denigrate other people's beliefs, does NOT mean that you should.

Juvenile, arrogant, self-centered behavior is not acceptable, irrespective of the medium.

Ed

Actually Ed, you are wrong.

I enjoy the subject, I just have a different perspective then you. I find it interesting that you seen to think freedom of expression on this subject only belongs to the believers, and that you should have some right to exclude those who see the world differently.

If you really have the facts on your side I wouldn't expect you to mind a little debate. If on the other hand, if all you have is faith despite evidence to the contrary, you might not like it when presented with the contrary evidence. But if you actually care about the truth, why would you abject to evidence?

Because someone disagrees with your behavior does not mean that they are 'whining".

This isn't whining, this is pointing out unacceptable behavior.

As to putting Antelope Sniper on "ignore", I have too much respect for his opinions. It's his delivery on this subject that I find completely unacceptable.

He has a great deal of knowledge and I would love to sit down and share a meal and talk about a number of subjects, including faith.

Ed

AS--I've enjoyed your perspective on many threads but not EVERY thread. It is a "public" forum and you should be allowed your opinion but you should also allow others to have their own as well. The Doc prefaced this in the OP and its been brought to your attention again.

I do not have all of the facts, no one does. The matter of debating is a wonderful thing. If we didn't think through the issues we encounter in life, we wouldn't last long. People have very different ideas of things because of their life experiences and their upbringing and I am always questioning and trying to learn everything I can.

The issue here is what are described as physical, psychological, and sociological "facts" cannot be compared to "faith". It's like comparing apples and granite.

I cannot brow-beat you into accepting Christ as the risen Son of God any more than you can brow-beat anyone here into denying their faith.

Which brings me back to my question; Why do you do keep doing this?

Ed

Jeff_O,



In case you didn't notice this country was founded on Christian principals. Read some US history in a book before the revisionists change the facts. It has deteriorated to what we see to day.

See, the Union winning wasn't such a good thing, was it?

Ed, that post was directed to Ace in the context of his earlier post where he declared:
"My faith coupled with my experiences aren't up for debate. I'm glad I have the faith that I do. I wish everyone had it."

So, yes, I was calling him out on his previous statement that he didn't want to apply logic or reason to his faith, nor seek the truth, but just believe what he wanted to believe, because he wanted to believe.

In contrast I've always considered you a pretty thoughtful guy, and not necessarily one who would consider that a shoe he could wear.

Besides, as Christians go, I tend to see you in the mold of Scott and Rost. Mistaken on the facts, but critical enough you are not hurting anyone in the process.

antelope_sniper,



The Humanist religion is not trying to control others, it is. Just this week I heard on the news Bibles are being kicked out of libraries in this country! What happened to tolerance? O yea. Everything is tolerated except anything to do with the God of the Bible.

Poor analogy there, Jeff...

We could set up a meeting (such as the Icebreaker) with you, me and anyone else who wants to attend and agree to some set definitions for proving who can 'shoot far'.

Caliber restrictions, rests allowed, scope specs, sighters, distances, et al. We could then in front of witnesses 'prove' scientifically who can or can't meet the criteria set forth.

To try to place metaphysical religious topics in the same plane of 'truth' or 'knowing' is absurd.

Article 11 of the Treaty of Tripoli [June 10, 1797]: "As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion..."

Technically Humanism is not a religion because it does not include a belief in the a deity figure not afterlife. As for the Bible being removed from libraries, if you had actually read the article carefully, in some instances it was removed from Elementary School libraries, and there is much in the Bible that is not appropriate for that audience.

Yeah it's amazing so many of us survived Sunday school. Ohh the horror...

I find it interesting that those who complain about dissent on religious threads are always those with the least to offer in terms of cogent arguments. Plainly apparent on this thread and every other 'religious' topic on the fire.

This who wish to commune in an echo chamber may either start a group PM or, perhaps, start their own website with totalitarian control over who posts and what.

I will say I like Doc R and most of his posts. When I made some points in the original timeline of this thread he admitted he didn't have all the answers. He also admitted the problems pointed out in the article I posted on Ebeneezer's book (while that link was met with thunderous silence from the peanut gallery).

Having said that, with all due respect to the Doc I thnk his choice of thread title was Bullschit. He didn't ask, "is hell real?' He stated it was and then referenced what is inescapable in Christian theology--namely, that those who don't ascribe to the beliefs of the Christian theology will be tortured forever in said Hell.

If hell were just a 'neutral' topic like, say, 'is the .270 gay?', then it would be a harmless, and lighthearted, discussion. But, alas, telling me or any one else that it's Yahweh or the Highway (to hell) begs for some response.

As has been said, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence and one constant point of NDE is that there is NO constants. So several anecdotes that happen to support your presuppositions do not truth make.

At least Antlers tries to make serious arguments for his position and Rich, kooky as he can be (still love ya buddy!) is consistent in his biblical literalism. (Btw, speaking of archaeology Rich, research Jericho--dating proved that it would've been a pile of rubble by the time Josh got there, according to the bible timeline).

All that to say that Sniper, myself and anyone who wishes to, can and will continue to hold your religious feet to the skeptical fire. After all, you are commanded to be 'ready to give an answer' ...


Next up...perhaps a new thread on people I call 'practical atheists'. Folks who are basically moral, honest people but who really don't behave like Jesus or follow his commands.

antelope_sniper,



Talk about "faith despite evidence to the contrary," you could be the poster child. You constantly reject the tenants of science to hold to your unscientific views. Nothing could represent blind faith more than you.

Good for you champ.

From what I've read, people have been peeking in on the other side for thousands of years. Some do it on purpose, some do it accidently.

I don't see any good reason to debate whether or not there's something that our receiver isn't wired to pick up. But I tend to think that human beings are limited in their ability to perceive everything that exists.

It's fairly conceited to believe that if we can't detect it, that it's not there.

Except the part where one of us has studied math, and science, at the University level, and the other hasn't.....

We know there are things that to date, we've only been able to detect indirectly. Dark energy and Dark matter are just two well know examples. We can detect their affects, but have yet to directly detect either.

I can say with a fair amount of confidence that there's both a math and a science that is beyond man's ability to understand.

Word.

String theorist whine about that all the time, claiming they don't have sufficient mathematical tools to prove their ideas....or maybe they need to go down a different path...

toad,



The original Congress set up Bible societies and the Congress paid to get Bibles printed and distributed. More than 200 of the first colleges were set up by Christians and staffed by Christians. Many of them pastors. These would include Harvard, William & Mary and the likes.

Check out this. The first written "government" document in America.

The Mayflower Compact

In the name of God, Amen. We, whose names are underwritten, the loyal subjects of our dread Sovereigne Lord, King James, by the grace of God, of Great Britaine, France and Ireland king, defender of the faith, etc. having undertaken, for the glory of God, and advancement of the Christian faith, and honour of our king and country, a voyage to plant the first colony in the Northerne parts of Virginia, doe by these presents solemnly and mutually in the presence of God and one of another, covenant and combine ourselves together into a civill body politick, for our better ordering and preservation, and furtherance of the ends aforesaid; and by virtue hereof to enacte, constitute, and frame such just and equall laws, ordinances, acts, constitutions and offices, from time to time, as shall be thought most meete and convenient for the generall good of the Colonie unto which we promise all due submission and obedience. In witness whereof we have hereunder subscribed our names at Cape-Codd the 11. of November, in the year of the raigne of our sovereigne lord, King James, of England, France and Ireland, the eighteenth, and of Scotland the fiftie-fourth. Anno Dom. 1620.

John Carver Edward Tilley Degory Priest
William Bradford John Tilley Thomas Williams
Edward Winslow Francis Cooke Gilbert Winslow
William Brewster Thomas Rogers Edmund Margeson
Issac Allerton Thomas Tinker Peter Browne
Myles Standish John Rigdale Richard Britteridge
John Alden Edward Fuller George Soule
Samuel Fuller John Turner Richard Clarke
Christopher Martin Francis Eaton Richard Gardiner
William Mullins James Chilton John Allerton
William White John Crackston Thomas English
Richard Warren John Billington Edward Dotey
John Howland Moses Fletcher Edward Leister
Stephen Hopkins John Goodman

Galaxies. Each one contains billions of solar systems.

Big place. Lots of mysteries.

antelope_sniper,



Technically that is not the definition I heard. In order to qualify for a religion its proponents need to believe in some kind of beginning and have some kind of belief in an ending. There was no menition of a deity.



That is your assessment and the assessment of the brainwashed liberal educated. There are millions around the world who don't agree with your opinion.

Don't dispary. Your side is winning. Just today I heard on the radio about a Canadian who was arrested for preaching hate speech from the Bible. All he had to do was deny his religion and he would be set free. He spend $100,000 and went to their highest court where it was overturned in his favor.

Another pastor, one in the U.K. was arrested for hate speech for saying Islam is a Satanic religion. It's fine for the Muslims to say Israel and United States are the Great Satan with impunity in those same countries.

Did they teach you the parts about child sacrifice?

Genocide?
Self mutilation?
Genital mutitlation?
Corpse mutilation?
Nailing dudes head to the floor?
Stabbing a Lardass so schit came out?
Incest with father?
Incest with father-in-law?
Polygamy?
Giant demon/human hybrid offspring?
Whores?
Drunkeness?
Cutting up mistresses into 12 parts and Fedex-ing them hither and yon?
Death by rape?
Bear maulings?
Hewing kings to pieces?
Impaling on stakes?
Insanity manifested as wild animal behavior?
Coitus interruptus?
Adultery?
Illegitimate children?
Abandoned children?
Wholesale,slaughter of animals?
Plagues?
Fiery furnaces?
Animal torture?
Astronomical terrors?
Zombies?

And don't forget a book dedicate to boobs and entering your lover's 'garden'! (The original BTE!)

And many, many more....or did you just learn about the talking donkey???

I'll tell you this, the collection of translations known as the Bible may not be any good for metaphysical truth but it's a goldmine of psychological insight into early, male, Semitic thought!

I'm telling ya, that schit would SELL!! Imagine making a 'true to the book' adaptation mini-series from the pages of the Bible. It would make Game of Thrones look like Mr. Rogers!

Hmm, maybe I should start working on a screenplay for HBO.....

We spent most of our time on the bear maulings.

MojoHand,



Your information is dated. Earlier this month I saw a documentary where the original daters had some prejudice against the accuracy of the Scripture that influenced their dating. Subsequent research by both believes in the Scripture and secularist discover that the town of Jericho would have been a thriving metropolis at the time of Joshua.

I would suggest to the archaeologists it pays to be more objective when doing research. Like the three I mentioned earlier, they all made no bones about the accuracy of the Jewish History we call the Bible.

I made sure never to make fun of bald guys as a kid (besides my dad)!

and of course, that was written under British rule...

Sigh, I know better, but ............

Ed, my Brother, I'm quoting, but please don't take offense as I'm not directing the response towards you, just a point within. Understand that I'm speaking from the position of a Christian (though "only" a Catholic so I don't qualify as such with some of the "Christian Experts") who is DONE with organized religion due, in great part, to folks baring a striking philosophical resemblance to some posters.

I enjoy reading these " discussions" right up to the point of condescension. Unfortunately, each "side" wants to point that finger. Does AS reach that point.......absolutely. Generally, though, it's after the "ignorant unbeliever" schit gets dropped.

I know what I believe but, conversely, I am a facts/logic type. I've reconciled my beliefs with the fact that the Bible is mans' translation. What do I KNOW about the afterlife? Jackshit, and I'm fine with that. I'll live my life according to my moral compass regardless of whether my beliefs are right or wrong. "Super-Christians" preaching known "facts" to the ignorant......that's where I get off the theological bus.

George

No offense, Rich but your arguments always start with 'I saw/heard/read something by so and so that says this' with no sources. Here's a source (from Bublical Archaeology, no less) that I was able to find in seconds. Please list your specific sources in the future so I can study them and see their data and viewpoints...




Is Bryant Wood's chronology of Jericho valid?

The following article is abstracted from The Biblical Chronologist Volume 2, Number 3. Full details and references can be found there.

The Problem to be Solved

In Joshua chapter 6, the Bible records the defeat of the city of Jericho by the children of Israel, led by Joshua. Traditional biblical chronology places this event ca. 1407 B.C.

The archaeological remains at Tell-es-Sultan correspond to the biblical Jericho. This is undisputed by mainstream scholarship, whether conservative or liberal.

John Garstang conducted excavations at Jericho from 1930 to 1936. He found a destruction layer corresponding to the termination of City IV, and dated it to ca. 1400 B.C. This worked out well for traditional biblical chronology.

However, in the 1950's, Kathleen Kenyon conducted further excavations at Jericho and concluded that the destruction of Garstang's City IV should be dated ca. 1550 B.C., not ca. 1400 B.C. In fact, Kenyon found no evidence at all of occupation of Jericho ca. 1407 B.C.

The following figure shows the chronology of Jericho held by nearly all modern archaeologists. The dashed line represents a period when Jericho was merely a campsite, the solid lines indicate an unwalled town, and the rectangles indicate a walled city. The letter 'A' points to 1407 B.C., the traditional biblical date for the destruction of Jericho by Joshua.


Clearly traditional biblical chronology is in conflict with the chronology of Jericho held by the consensus of modern archaeologists. The termination of the walled city (City IV) ca. 1550 B.C. is the chronologically closest candidate to the traditional biblical date for the destruction of Jericho by Joshua, but it is still about 150 years from the traditional biblical dates according to the scholarly consensus. Clearly the destruction of City IV Jericho and the destruction of Jericho by Joshua cannot be the same event if they are separated by 150 years.

Wood's Proposed Solution

In the March/April 1990 issue of Biblical Archaeology Review conservative biblical archaeologist Dr. Bryant G. Wood proposed that Garstang was right all along. He proposed that the termination of City IV Jericho be redated from ca. 1550 B.C. to ca. 1400 B.C. He argued that a reanalyis of pottery shards excavated from City IV, stratigraphic considerations, scarab evidence, and a single radiocarbon date all converged "to demonstrate that City IV was destroyed in about 1400 B.C.E., not 1550 B.C.E. as Kenyon maintained."

Wood's proposal received press coverage and positive reaction from conservative sectors, but his fellow archaeologists did not react so favorably. In a subsequent issue of Biblical Archaeology Review, Piotr Bienkowski attacked Wood's arguments and then summarized his assessment of Wood's claims as follows:

Wood has attempted to redate the destruction of Jericho City IV from the end of the Middle Bronze Age (c. 1550 B.C.) to the end of the Late Bronze I (c. 1400 B.C.). He has put forward four lines of argument to support his conclusion. Not a single one of these arguments can stand up to scrutiny. On the contrary, there is strong evidence to confirm Kathleen Kenyon's dating of City IV to the Middle Bronze Age. Wood's attempt to equate the destruction of City IV with the Israelite conquest of Jericho must therefore be rejected.
Wood responded to Bienkowski in the same issue with a more detailed discussion of pottery shards. He charged:
Bienkowski's attempt to explain away the evidence for lowering the date of the destruction of Jericho is misguided and void of substance. Assertions made without data to back them up are unconvincing. His discussion is superficial, at best, lacking both depth and precision.
And so the battle raged.
Settling the Dispute

It is clear that the question is one of chronology. When was City IV Jericho destroyed? The scholarly consensus says ca. 1550 B.C., Wood says ca. 1400 B.C. What source can we turn to to settle this dispute?

In fact, radiocarbon is such a source. In the early 1990's, when Wood first published his claims, there was only one radiocarbon measurement available for City IV. It was from a piece of charcoal dated by the British Museum to 1410 plus or minus 40 years B.C. Unfortunately, this date was later retracted by the British Museum, along with dates of several hundred other samples. The British Museum found that their radiocarbon measurement apparatus had gone out of calibration for a period of time, and thus had yielded incorrect dates during that period. The corrected date for the charcoal sample from City IV turned out to be consistent with Kenyon's ca. 1550 B.C. date for the City IV destruction.

The corrected date no longer supported Wood's proposal, but it was insufficient to falsify the proposal. Radiocarbon dates on charcoal give the date the wood grew, not the date it was burned. To be consistent with Bryant Wood's proposal, the wood which burned to produce the charcoal sample would need to have been cut from a living tree 150 years prior to the destruction. Of course, this is not impossible.

As mentioned earlier, no other radiocarbon dates from samples from City IV Jericho were available in the early 1990's. In 1995, however, results were published by Hendrik J. Bruins and Johannes van der Plicht from high-precision radiocarbon measurements made on eighteen samples from Jericho. Six of these samples were charred cereal grains from the City IV destruction. Bruins and van der Plicht did not set out to disprove Wood's thesis. Their stated purpose was to contribute "toward the establishment of an independent radiocarbon chronology of Near Eastern archaeology."

The chart below is the same as the chart shown earlier. Heavy black bars have been added showing the range of dates radiocarbon gave from the six charred grain samples from City IV Jericho.


Bruins and van der Plicht recognized the results of their work held a serious implication for Wood's theory. They devoted only one sentence to this implication:

Further, the fortified Bronze Age city at Tell es-Sultan [Jericho] was not destroyed by ca.1400 BC, as Wood (1990) suggested.
As is evident from the chart, the radiocarbon measurements strongly support the chronology advanced by Kenyon long before the radiocarbon measurements were made. This radiocarbon evidence falsifies Wood's theory. City IV was destroyed ca. 1550 B.C., not ca. 1400 B.C. City IV Jericho was not destroyed by Joshua.
Other Considerations

The chronology of Jericho is by no means the only problem associated with the traditional biblical chronology of the Exodus and Conquest. For example, even if Wood's chronology of Jericho were viable, the complete absence of fortified habitation at et-Tell (identified by almost all scholars with the biblical Ai) for 1000 years prior to the traditional biblical chronology date for its destruction by Joshua is still left to be explained. And the archaeological and historical data from Egypt must also be explained. These depict Egypt as a stable, properous nation at the very time the traditional biblical chronology date for the Exodus says Egypt should be a nation devastated by plagues.

Aardsma's Solution

Having settled the dispute over the date of City IV Jericho's destruction and having demonstrated that Wood's chronology is not valid, we are left with the problem we started with. Traditional biblical chronology conflicts with the archaeological/radiocarbon chronology of Jericho. Traditional biblical chronology places the date of the Conquest of Jericho at a time when there was no city at Jericho. In fact, as noted in the preceding paragraph, traditional biblical chronology of the Exodus and the Conquest is plagued by such problems.

Gerald E. Aardsma, Ph.D., has proposed an alternate solution, one that solves these problems and does justice to both biblical and secular scientific evidence. He has shown that the correct biblical chronology date for the Conquest is ca. 2400 B.C., not ca. 1400 B.C. By this solution, it is the ca. 2400 B.C. destruction at Jericho, shown in the charts above, which must be credited to Joshua. For further information on Dr. Aardsma's solution, see What is the missing millennium discovery?