Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters .300 WSM vs. .300 Win Mag

Agreed MD.

I had followed Jamison's development of the 300 Jamison with intense interest. And, I had every intention of having one built once he settled on the final dimensions. And, then the bomb went off.

I have other stuff & like it too. However, I must be akin to Dick Fickle when it comes to the 300 WSM.

yeah, if I were an elk and I showed up with a plastic stocked 06', I'd be pissed

Guilty as charged.

Im not a Winchester fan. But, I am thankful for the 300 WSM and its offspring.

No, other than if you can only find the exact rifle you like in one or the other.

You can't put "modern powders" in a WSM? Who knew....

In factory ammo... the lawyers have to be careful with the .300 Win Mag loads... you never know what kinda rifle that stuff will end up in. The WSM fodder can be (and often is) loaded to the gills... there's almost no difference in velocity between the two rounds when factory loads are shot from factory guns... at least that I've seen.

Just read an old post where 3000-3100 was pretty common with 180s in the .300 WSM... out of 23-24" barrels. Seems 66 grains of RE17 (a "modern powder") was running 3060 with 180 NBTs. Giving up only 75-125 fps to the .300 Winny loads MD referenced above... and using as much as 19 grains more powder (25-30%).

I have a 17" barreled .300 WSM that'll run 2850 with a 180... which bests about any 24" 30-06 with the same bullet.

I was in Cabela's yesterday... they had as many varieties of .300 WSM factory loads as they had .300 Winchester.

What factory rifle holds 5 .300 Winchester rounds in the mag... but only holds 3 WSMs in the same guise?

The .300 Winny is a bad ass round, and deserves its place as one of the preeminent big game cartridges of the world... as does the '06... something right in the middle of the two ought to do pretty well in the field... even if it is 60-90 years younger....

PS.... here's the link to that old .300 WSM thread....

http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/5000039/all/R17_and_the_300_WSM[/quote]
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After an extended hiatus of over 3 1/2 years, I find upon my return that little has changed in regards to discussing the pro's/con's of the 300WSM......LOL. I do notice however, that, even though 11 pages have already been dedicated to this subject, that the posts have remained much more civil and informative than several years back.....and that's a very good thing.

Since the 300WSM's inception, I have found it to be very terminally effective, easy to load for and very accurate. My particular recipe consists of a compressed load of RL22, Fed. GM215's, Norma brass and 180gr. TSX's from a 24in. barrel. Since many here are handloaders and do so for many reasons, which includes safely attempting to get the most accuracy, reliability and velocities out of our firearms, I am certainly no different. After 40+ years of doing so, I enjoy it as much today as I did when I started handloading in the early 70's after my separation from the USMC.

As stated above, the 300WSM using 180gr. loads was touted to be able to achieve velocities very similar to that of standard 180gr. 300WM loads. Not having owned a 300WM nor any .30 cal. offering except an '06, I had no preconceived notions about what I was to really expect from handloading for this particular cartridge. Having handloaded for several decades prior to purchasing my first 300WSM, I felt pretty confident in my handloading abilities and set forth to put together as reliable and terminally effective a round as I could without running afoul of even the slightest of pressure signs.

After several range sessions using numerous different combinations of components, I settled on the aforementioned recipe. It gave me all that I could have hoped for without the slightest sign of excess pressure. I also did my testing in 75-80 degree weather so that any possible pressure signs had every opportunity to reveal themselves. The temps that I actually hunt with this particular rifle range from 8-49 degrees (an average of some 30 years of hunting this particular area at 5,500 ft.).

I shot 25 rounds over a high-end chrono, measured the distance from muzzle to chrono, GPS'd the altitude
(800ft),noted the temp. just prior to each cooled barreled shot and averaged all that info to find that my MV out of that 24in. barrel was 3,130fps.

I hope that the civility will remain as I had earlier observed and mentioned, but I also know that some will be pushed beyond their limits to not respond 'productively'. Sure.....I can take it as many here might remember from several years back, but my point being, my results were gleaned as honestly and accurately as possible for several reasons. I don't just assume as I'd like that all other accounts of such things are definitive and as we all know, every rifle/chamber/scale/batch of powder, primers and brass are all different. And how many articles or posts on such sites give us the actual temps/altitude/etc. that were in play during their gathering of such information. I also 'range proof' my loads as to drop up to the range that I am confident shooting, but I also always like to compare those results with those on paper after all of these calculations and range sessions have been completed.

Do I advocate any others search for 'their load' as I do......nope. Do I expect to wring out any future purchases as I did this load and all others for decades......yep. Was I expecting to observe pressure signs prior to the load I ended up with......yep. Had I purchased commercial loads or accepted only the loads printed in the very, very few articles printed at that time for the 300WSM, I would have been left with would have duplicated a healthy '06 load (not that there's anything wrong with that.....LOL). But that's not why I bought the 300WSM and purchased another one shortly after taking my bull with it that same season (my son hunts as well).

Sooooo....in my experience, the 300WSM with my load in my rifle shoots a 180gr. TSX out my rifles muzzle of a 24in. barrel at 3,130fps...........very, very accurately and with, in my estimation, less recoil than my 'ole '06 did with a healthy load.

Good to read all of your posts as I'm still always learning and willing to listen and I expect will continue at least throughout today, at a minimum......LOL.

So, in the generous spirit so common on the Campfire, are you going to share your charge of RL-22?

Mmmm....so the 300 WSM pushes a 180 gr bullet as fast as a 300 Win Mag does, with less case capacity....(71.3 gr with a 180 gr bullet seated vs. 82.3 gr with a 180 gr bullet seated),yet kicks less than a 30/06 that goes 300-400 fps slower (?) (See Nosler Manual #7).


Amazing cartridge!

Apparently today a difference of 10 gr of powder capacity is meaningless.

If we made it shorter and with less capacity, it would go as fast as a 300 Weatherby, right?

That the miracle powder in this case is RL 22 does not surprise me,..... why? (people experienced with RL22 will know exactly what I'm talking about).

That the poster has never owned a 300 Win Mag and is apparently basing his conclusions on having loaded for a grand total of one(1) 300 WSM also does not surprise.....why?

I just looked at four(4)reloading manuals and never saw a single load for the 300 WSM that hit 3100 fps with 180 gr bullet.

The wonders of marketing.


I hope I've been civil enough.

Bob,

The latest Nosler data does list one .300 WSM load at 3092 fps--and from a 24" barrel. (You've got to look close to notice that most Nosler .300 WSM data is from a 26" barrel, but 165-180's are from a 24". Probably their old barrel wore out, and they're reshooting data for the most popular bullet weights in a new one.)

But the 3092 is from RL-17, not 22. The top load with 22 is 3052 fps, which was the fastest I'd found for a 180 in any pressure-tested data before Nosler's latest manual appeared last fall.

I agree with you, I like the 300 WSM. I think it's every bit as capable as the 30-06 or 300 Win...

and probably the better choice if you want to run 80k psi loads.

John,

From knowing a little bit about each other from years past and knowing myself just how imprudent and irresponsible your request would be to satisfy given the possibility that another member might go directly to that charge without passin' 'GO' (ie: doing the appropriate and necessary load work-up), I will pm you the charge that I use. I trust that you are not so inclined and/or really perhaps not all that interested, but I will forward on that charge to you as soon as I finish this post. As I would totally expect, I look forward to your pm'd response and any suggestions comments that you might have.....thanks in advance.

As I've tried to convey all along and in any post that I have ever posted prior to today, we are all responsible for the results of our behavior and unless one has a death wish, do not take lightly the entire process that is 'working up a load'. I'd venture a guess that there are very few experienced handloaders here that have not ever pushed past printed charges, slightly or otherwise, to levels where your abilities and knowledge to reliably acknowledge the slightest signs of pressure is truly our last line of defense, if you will. I have stopped at charges that exhibited just the tiniest and slightest signs that pressure might be the cause and I then backed down from there to my next tightest and acceptable group.

I will say that with this particular 300WSM load, there was never and has never been a single 'visual' pressure sign after hundreds and hundreds of reloads and firings. I fully expect that John and perhaps others will comment that the 'invisible' pressure effects are no less reason for worry and/or consideration and that would certainly be true. But in regards to having 'pushed the envelope' whether it be only once or perhaps many times or enhancing a charge just ever so slightly to several grains more per charge, I don't expect that many, if any of us, can say that we haven't BTDT. If so, my hat's off to you. If not, I think that we finally made the majority list in something.

Nope.....not a death wish for me or anyone else. When working up loads and getting at or above where max's are now being chambered, I choose a weekday at a time when I have several benches open on either side of me. I said earlier that we are responsible for our own actions/decisions. I fully expect an uneventful trip every range session, but I choose to cover all bases, especially those of others. While actually hunting, I have already sent hundreds of TSX's downrange in 75-80 degree weather without a hitch so I feel almost 100% comfortable that all will go well in 22 degree weather. I would assume that there are more catastrophic events caused by reasons other than excess pressures caused by too large of a charge (stuck bullets, wrong powder, barrel obstruction, etc.).

Given the work put in with this particular handload and the results from that work, my 300WSM adds a bit more horsepower than what my 'ole '06 could have ever hoped to achieve. Is it really necessary? In most cases......no. But I'm not a 'one gun' guy and the whole idea of handloading for me, is to wring out the most accuracy I possibly can. How often is that done with the lightest of printed charges or even the middle weight charges?

Not always is the most accurate load in one's particular rifle the heaviest charge possible of a certain powder, but never have I ever found the most accurate load to be the lightest printed charge either.

I always end up with what my gun wants to shoot and to shoot extremely accurately. I am as responsible as I can be given that I know full well that 99.9% of the time, I'll inevitably end up using an extended dropper tube if I chose my powder/cartridge/charge possibilities correctly.

Good luck...........

Looks like Coyote Hunter has a viable competitor for longest average post.

Bob,

It always amazes me why someone would actually try to attempt to discount another's experience, be it playing horse shoes or handloading. Why is someone elses' experience so threatening to some, in this case, obviously you. Lighten up. Since you've decided that the information I've offered here is either just #'s I've decided to use or that I'm trying to demean the 300WM, I don't think that you or anybody else can truly believe that to be true. But since you don't seem to trust anyone elses' #'s and experiences, it is puzzling as to why you haven't questioned John as to the veracity of the #'s he pulled directly from a handloading manual, be it John's veracity or the manuals......as you did the #'s I offered. Do you actually think it impossible that my 180gr. load can't be a bit faster at 3,130fps faster than their published load? Identical loads from identical rifles can and do differ by 100fps, but you should know that.

As to RL22.......I have had zero problems with it's reliability in terms of uniformity or otherwise. Perhaps it's the combination of components that I use, who knows? I have heard the negative reports, but I also have heard many positive reports. But, once again, it seems that you have the definitive answers on all such things.

As to my 'grand total' of having loaded only one 300WSM in my life, please refer to many of my posts that would correct that intentional mischaracterization on your part to place my handloading experience in doubt by those that may not know me or have chosen to read only bits and parts of this thread. I have handloaded for many different handgun and rifle cartridges and had you done a bit of homework before rushing to show your ignorance in that regard, this correction could have been avoided.

People's experiences are exactly that....their experiences. What would be to gain by lying about their findings such as with the information that I have offered and even the #'s that John showed you from a handloading manual? Does my experience and claim of getting 100fps(+/-) from what that manual even states as possible that much of a threat to you so as to elicit such an inaccurate and rather useless response from you? What's the point in that....?

Civil.......solely considering the source when deciding that question makes that task so much easier.

This guy need some pictures though...

Magnumb: I'm not discounting your experience; I have had the same ones with so many cartridges in rifles that were ..."just a little bit faster than the manuals or every one else rifle" that I am a carping skeptic, having BTDT so many times.

I use a LOT of RL22;even most recently with a brand new 270 and have no problem with its reliability. I have been using it ever since it was first introduced. Thousands, and thousands of rounds in a variety of cartridges.

What you have missed apparently.....and it is characteristic of the powder, is that it is "double based" powder; and as long as you add powder, you will add velocity until stuff blows up.

This is unlike many single based powders where velocity "flattens" and tops out at max charges,and you add powder but DON'T get the added velocity. You know you have reached max. Experience tells you this.

When I see a load for the 300 WSM that shows 80-130 fps more velocity than any manual I can find is showing, and that gives the same velocity as a case with 10 gr more capacity,I don't chalk it up to your unique "experience"......I would wonder why you above all others in the universe were chosen for such blessings.

I assume, probably correctly, that your charge is excessive.So "no" I don't pay any attention to your "experience" because I have loaded for several 300 WSM's and I will trust my judgement over yours any day of the week.

You still have not told us what charge of RL22 gave you that velocity.

So......how many 300 WSM's have you loaded for?

How many 300 Win Mags have you loaded for?

My point is you may have loaded for 40 years for a 30/06 but that does not mean you know anything....at all... about loading a 300 magnum that is new to you, which you have demonstrated.

If you are so experienced, why are you not suspicious of a load that equals the velocity of a case holding 10 gr more powder? Is that magic or something?It would cause me to be suspicious.

Its always the guys reaching for the last 100-150 fps that blow things up. Your handle on here is appropriate.

I remember when the 7/08 was about the age that 300 WSM is now, similar conversations that it was a fad, why have it, but it is still popular now. Maybe not for everyone if they have an '06 right?

Sometimes you just gotta laugh...

A 300 WSM or 7mm Wby makes a whole lot more sense than a 7mm Mashburn........

Bob,

Actually, I have to thank magnumb: His post made me update some of my load data. In my computer I keep a list of "fastest" loads with various bullet weights from all published sources, for the several dozen rifle cartridges I've loaded for over the years. However, these days this means rechecking on-line data, not just buying the latest paper manuals (which I still do as well).

I hadn't done a check on .300 WSM data since late 2015, when I purchased my latest rifle in the chambering. Yesterday I rechecked on-line data for the .300 WSM and .300 Winchester Magnum and found several new loads, including the interesting fact (noted in an earlier post) that Nosler now lists both 26" and 24" barrels for some .300 WSM data, probably because their older 26" test-barrel wore out.

Anyway, the three fastest published loads for 180 grain bullets in the .300 WSM, all from 24" barrels, are:
72.5 Hunter, 3107 fps (Barnes)
64.0 RL-17, 3092 fps (Nosler)
66.0 RL-17, 3082 fps (Alliant)
[average 3094]

The three fastest for the .300 Winchester Magnum, again from 24" barrels, are:
81.5 780, 3194 fps (Barnes)
86.5 Magnum, 3193 fps (Ramshot)
73.0 IMR4831, 3160 fps (Nosler)
[average 3182]

However, less new data has appeared for the .300 Winchester Magnum than the .300 WSM. Still, the data that has appeared for the WSM has shown a more consistent increase in maximum velocity of around 50 fps. This may not sound like much, but less than a year ago the maximum listed velocity for 180's was around 3050, and most was around 3000.

Am guessing the reason for far more new data appearing for the .300 WSM is it's still a relatively new cartridge, while the .300 Winchester is over half a century old. Many sources of reloading data don't really lean into retesting established rounds. Instead they tend to put their time and energy into newer rounds, since there's less data available for them. (Or at least they do if the newer round sticks around. I'm not seeing any new data for the .25 WSSM--but am for the .17 Hornady Hornet.)

By the way, the average difference in top velocities between the two rounds is what the 4-to-1 Rule predicts.

So it took an average increase of 19% in powder (67.5 vs 80.3) to equal a 3% increase in velocity (3094 vs 3182)...

Or to put it another way.... the WSM does 97% of what the Win Mag does.... using 84% of the powder... in a shorter/lighter rifle.