As to ethnic Israel, is God finished with them? Did he change His immutable (unchangeable) mind in regard to all the promises to the OT Abraham, Jacob, Isaac, and David? I think not; rather I would argue your Replacement Theology is a construct.
I think God's promises to Abraham, Issac, Jacob and David as being father (s) of many nations is indeed fulfilled because through Christ the Gentiles (ie many nations) were grafted into the people God first chose to reveal Himself through have become one as the body of Christ in The Church.
I know you do; that is known as Replacement Theology. Grafted INTO, yes, but no does that not imply the "original vine is still alive".
Please explain "replacement theology". I've never heard of the term before now.
I'm not implying the original vine is dead. Just hybridized becoming all inclusive........if you will. The Church is Israel. Not the modern-day nation-state.
If it's all about the modern-day nation-state of Israel, as some believe, then why bother being a Christian at all?
Please explain "replacement theology". I've never heard of the term before now.
I'm not implying the original vine is dead. Just hybridized becoming all inclusive........if you will. The Church is Israel. Not the modern-day nation-state.
If it's all about the modern-day nation-state of Israel, as some believe, then why bother being a Christian at all?
I'm curious if you tithe. If you do, has God rebuked the devourer at your house? If things still go wrong and break then He has not rebuked the devourer OR you are not the new Israel.
"Only Christ is the fullness of God's revelation." Everyday Hunter
As to ethnic Israel, is God finished with them? Did he change His immutable (unchangeable) mind in regard to all the promises to the OT Abraham, Jacob, Isaac, and David? I think not; rather I would argue your Replacement Theology is a construct.
I think God's promises to Abraham, Issac, Jacob and David as being father (s) of many nations is indeed fulfilled because through Christ the Gentiles (ie many nations) were grafted into the people God first chose to reveal Himself through have become one as the body of Christ in The Church.
I know you do; that is known as Replacement Theology. Grafted INTO, yes, but no does that not imply the "original vine is still alive".
Please explain "replacement theology". I've never heard of the term before now.
I'm not implying the original vine is dead. Just hybridized becoming all inclusive........if you will. The Church is Israel. Not the modern-day nation-state.
If it's all about the modern-day nation-state of Israel, as some believe, then why bother being a Christian at all?
Replacement Theology or its rejection is the key to how you see end time scenarios; or, it distinguishes amillennialism from premillennialism. The latter belief system adherents believe in a literal thousand year rule of Christ on earth when He returns and the ultimate and final land-and-rule fulfillment of the promises God made to Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and David.
Though Israel is now a secular nation, premillennialists believe that God will finally in the end call a remnant out of ethnic Israel--the 144,000 in Revelation, twelve thousand from each tribe--and that remnant will respond with repentance and belief in Christ as Lord and savior. So, bottom line, God in this belief system still has ethnic Israel fulfilling roles at the end of the age; He is not finished with Israel as the amillennialists would believe. This is what premillennialists believe.
Replacement Theology holds that due to Israel's sin and disobedience, and rejection of Christ when He walked this earth, God has discarded them and their [/i] promised [i] inheritance and now sees the church--all true believers--as spiritual sons of Abraham and thus the now new recipients of all those promises God made to the above patriarchs in the OT.
The key that divides these two beliefs is how you interpret the scriptures or the hermeneutic one uses. Premill's use a normal-sense or most literal sense of the words written while amill's call these scriptural passages and end times prophecies metaphoric, and symbolic, etc.
Amill's, because they spiritualize these scriptures tend to make them say what each little group therein decides they do, up to fifty-some versions of what the end times may look like, while there is much less interpretive variation among the premillennialist group because they take the scripture as it is without reading into or out of it what they might be inclined to.
Long story short, All God's promises made in the OT to those Israelites of old He has declared null and void but "the church", or all true believers, are now to be the inheritors of those promises. That's Replacement Theology.
I believe it (amillennialism) has some serious problems. The RCC and protestant Reformed denominations like the RCA, the CRC, the Lutherans and Presbyterians, for example, as groups tend to be amillennialists. While the more charismatic groups such as Evan-Free, Church of God, and some Baptists, and others tend to lean to a premillennial eschatology (end time scenario).
It's certainly not all about Israel even if they respond back to God in the future. All believing gentiles (everybody not an ethnic Jew) were accepted into God's fold in the NT times when Peter had the dream of the "unclean and the clean" the upshot of which was that all of us unclean Gentiles (in the eyes of all Jews anyway which of course Peter was) were now to be equal par takers of God's grace through belief in Jesus Christ. Paul was thus commissioned to go and preach exclusively to the "unwashed" masses--us!
I'm proud to say I voted for Chuck Baldwin for President in 08 against McLame when he ran as the candidate of the Taxpayers Party.
I'm a Pan Millenialist; I believe God is in perfect control and it'll all pan out in the end... That is, that Christ will physically return and inaugurate a new heavens and new earth when and how He sees fit. The point in my mind of all eschatological writings is the fact that His return could come at any time. Every generation since has sensed that, yet here we are.
Faith, hope, and love but the greatest is love for the others will one day pass away...
I agree that there is a particular theological persuasion that accounts for the majority of Fubdamentalist Christianity in this country that has a penchant for obsessing over their eschatological viewpoints.
From a historical perspective, Dispensationalism actually developed first as a system developed from an eschatology which in my mind is a backward way to build a system of biblical doctrine given the lack of clarity around eschatological writings.
I agree with a lot of what RickyD has said; the message of God's gracious salvation offered in and thru His Son is by far the #1 message we all need to hear preached and see lived out before us. I'm terrible at it but pray to be more like my Lord and less like me by His power...
It's certainly not all about Israel even if they respond back to God in the future. All believing gentiles (everybody not an ethnic Jew) were accepted into God's fold in the NT times when Peter had the dream of the "unclean and the clean" the upshot of which was that all of us unclean Gentiles (in the eyes of all Jews anyway which of course Peter was) were now to be equal par takers of God's grace through belief in Jesus Christ. Paul was thus commissioned to go and preach exclusively to the "unwashed" masses--us!
They were accepted in long before that; the fact that it took Israelites that long to get it was a big reason why the temple fell in Ad 70.
Christians are true Israelites; the one true Jew who ever lived was Christ and we follow Him. Galatians and the discussion on Hagar & Sarah makes this pretty clear.
I am confident that God will (and already has) work mightily in the nation of Israel down thru to he ages to call His people from that nation but there won't ever be a physical temple in Jerusalem as some contend. Hebrews is very clear on that point.
That any of us can be counted as His simply blows my mind...
It's certainly not all about Israel even if they respond back to God in the future. All believing gentiles (everybody not an ethnic Jew) were accepted into God's fold in the NT times when Peter had the dream of the "unclean and the clean" the upshot of which was that all of us unclean Gentiles (in the eyes of all Jews anyway which of course Peter was) were now to be equal par takers of God's grace through belief in Jesus Christ. Paul was thus commissioned to go and preach exclusively to the "unwashed" masses--us!
They were accepted in long before that; the fact that it took Israelites that long to get it was a big reason why the temple fell in Ad 70.
Christians are true Israelites; the one true Jew who ever lived was Christ and we follow Him. Galatians and the discussion on Hagar & Sarah makes this pretty clear.
I am confident that God will (and already has) work mightily in the nation of Israel down thru to he ages to call His people from that nation but there won't ever be a physical temple in Jerusalem as some contend. Hebrews is very clear on that point.
That any of us can be counted as His simply blows my mind...
As to your last statement, I heartily agree knowing me like I do.
For the other readers here, my good friend efw, represents the amillennial position; while I was raised in it I now lean the other way. However, these types of disagreements should never separate believers as neither belief has exclusivity on salvation and are not doctrines fundamental to the Christian faith.
Jesus prioritized 'people' over religious beliefs and values. The moment somebody places their religious beliefs and values over another person, they go backwards. Loving God, and demonstrating your love for God by how you treat other people, is at the very center of the center of the center of what it means to be a follower of Jesus. Do these things and you don't have to be concerned about much of nothin' else regarding The Bible or Christianity...everything else is filler material and commentary.
I think the point of the whole Bible is that we CANNOT do those things; as a race we are depraved and unable to do right by God & neighbors apart from the regenerating power of God in Christ thru the Holy Spirit.
As to your last statement, I heartily agree knowing me like I do.
For the other readers here, my good friend efw, represents the amillennial position; while I was raised in it I now lean the other way. However, these types of disagreements should never separate believers as neither belief has exclusivity on salvation and are not doctrines fundamental to the Christian faith.
Absolutely true on all counts except the Amillenial part.
The term Amillenial was coined (tho many who use it don't necessarily mean it that way) as a derogatory mischaracterization of what is actually a form of post millenialism.
Jesus prioritized 'people' over religious beliefs and values. The moment somebody places their religious beliefs and values over another person, they go backwards. Loving God, and demonstrating your love for God by how you treat other people, is at the very center of the center of the center of what it means to be a follower of Jesus. Do these things and you don't have to be concerned about much of nothin' else regarding The Bible or Christianity...everything else is filler material and commentary.
Please explain "replacement theology". I've never heard of the term before now.
The term replacement theology is one given to your system by those who disagree with it.
I happen to completely agree with you; I would call it a covenantal understanding of Scripture. The Church did not REPLACE Israel; it is a partial fulfillment of the OT promises to Israel. A down payment on the ultimate conclusion to history; the New Heavens & New Earth.
The modern nation state of Israel has no more to do with the redemptive purposes of God than Argentina or Bosnia.
I'm curious if you tithe. If you do, has God rebuked the devourer at your house? If things still go wrong and break then He has not rebuked the devourer OR you are not the new Israel.
As to ethnic Israel, is God finished with them? Did he change His immutable (unchangeable) mind in regard to all the promises to the OT Abraham, Jacob, Isaac, and David? I think not; rather I would argue your Replacement Theology is a construct.
I think God's promises to Abraham, Issac, Jacob and David as being father (s) of many nations is indeed fulfilled because through Christ the Gentiles (ie many nations) were grafted into the people God first chose to reveal Himself through have become one as the body of Christ in The Church.
I know you do; that is known as Replacement Theology. Grafted INTO, yes, but no does that not imply the "original vine is still alive".
Please explain "replacement theology". I've never heard of the term before now.
I'm not implying the original vine is dead. Just hybridized becoming all inclusive........if you will. The Church is Israel. Not the modern-day nation-state.
If it's all about the modern-day nation-state of Israel, as some believe, then why bother being a Christian at all?
Replacement Theology or its rejection is the key to how you see end time scenarios; or, it distinguishes amillennialism from premillennialism. The latter belief system adherents believe in a literal thousand year rule of Christ on earth when He returns and the ultimate and final land-and-rule fulfillment of the promises God made to Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and David.
Though Israel is now a secular nation, premillennialists believe that God will finally in the end call a remnant out of ethnic Israel--the 144,000 in Revelation, twelve thousand from each tribe--and that remnant will respond with repentance and belief in Christ as Lord and savior. So, bottom line, God in this belief system still has ethnic Israel fulfilling roles at the end of the age; He is not finished with Israel as the amillennialists would believe. This is what premillennialists believe.
Replacement Theology holds that due to Israel's sin and disobedience, and rejection of Christ when He walked this earth, God has discarded them and their [/i] promised [i] inheritance and now sees the church--all true believers--as spiritual sons of Abraham and thus the now new recipients of all those promises God made to the above patriarchs in the OT.
The key that divides these two beliefs is how you interpret the scriptures or the hermeneutic one uses. Premill's use a normal-sense or most literal sense of the words written while amill's call these scriptural passages and end times prophecies metaphoric, and symbolic, etc.
Amill's, because they spiritualize these scriptures tend to make them say what each little group therein decides they do, up to fifty-some versions of what the end times may look like, while there is much less interpretive variation among the premillennialist group because they take the scripture as it is without reading into or out of it what they might be inclined to.
Long story short, All God's promises made in the OT to those Israelites of old He has declared null and void but "the church", or all true believers, are now to be the inheritors of those promises. That's Replacement Theology.
I believe it (amillennialism) has some serious problems. The RCC and protestant Reformed denominations like the RCA, the CRC, the Lutherans and Presbyterians, for example, as groups tend to be amillennialists. While the more charismatic groups such as Evan-Free, Church of God, and some Baptists, and others tend to lean to a premillennial eschatology (end time scenario).
I'm curious if you tithe. If you do, has God rebuked the devourer at your house? If things still go wrong and break then He has not rebuked the devourer OR you are not the new Israel.
Please explain "replacement theology". I've never heard of the term before now.
The term replacement theology is one given to your system by those who disagree with it.
I happen to completely agree with you; I would call it a covenantal understanding of Scripture. The Church did not REPLACE Israel; it is a partial fulfillment of the OT promises to Israel. A down payment on the ultimate conclusion to history; the New Heavens & New Earth.
The modern nation state of Israel has no more to do with the redemptive purposes of God than Argentina or Bosnia.
My experience with those obsessed with prophecy seems to be that they want to know how long they can do their own thing and still repent in time to go to Heaven.
This, is the reason I don't go to church, a bunch of back sliding hypocrites, BS con artists and betty-better-than-me's.
They can kiss my red ass while riding their tall horses starring down their noses at the rest of the world.
I believe all religion is based on fear as a way for a few to profit, just another BS business.
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