Obsession With Bible Prophecy: The Devil Loves It
By Chuck Baldwin
August 18, 2016

(NOTE: I have stated before that I believe that the Fall of Jerusalem in AD 70 fulfilled Daniel's "time of the end" prophecy and resulted in the second coming of Christ in judgment on Israel, the casting of Satan into the bottomless pit, thus rendering him powerless, and the ushering in of the Kingdom of God in it's full glory. Nevertheless, Baldwin makes some good points about the danger of politicians using so-called unfulfilled Bible prophecy to make political decisions - OO)

Christians of all stripes and persuasions believe in the return of
Christ, nuances of prophetic interpretation notwithstanding.
Furthermore, personal interpretations of prophecy are NOT fundamental
to our salvation or our service to God. One will find faithful and
unfaithful believers at every point along the prophecy spectrum.

That said, after more than four decades of pastoring, it is my firm
conviction that the obsession with Bible prophecy demonstrated by a
host of professing Christians today is one of our country's BIGGEST
problems. On the whole, obsession with prophecy either takes those
obsessed completely out of the freedom fight or it actually puts them
on the side of those who are trying to usurp our liberties.

For some (especially those who believe in a "pre-tribulation
Rapture”), prophecy has mostly turned them into indifferent,
apathetic facilitators of tyranny. They say things like "This is all
predicted in the Bible, so there's nothing we can do about it" or
"Jesus is coming soon, and I won't be around to see it, so I'm not
worrying about it" or "Since this is all part of prophecy, we should
not even try to resist, because to resist is to interfere with God"
and similar nonsensical, asinine statements.

Others see all kinds of self-interpreted "signs" proving whatever they
WANT to believe in order to convince people that their prophetic
predilections are superior to everyone else’s for the purpose of
exalting their own hyper-inflated, super-spiritual egos. In other
words, these particular folks are living in their own self-created
fantasy world that renders them absolutely worthless--or even
detrimental--to the freedom fight.

Still others are so jaded in their prophetic infatuation with the
modern state of Israel that they interpret everything through the
dark lenses of misguided obfuscation to the point that they are
unable to see events clearly and accurately, which makes them prone
to the manipulations of Neocons and other enemies of freedom.

People have been interpreting Bible prophecy to suit their own fancies
for over 2,000 years. The fact is, no one knows exactly how and when
the events surrounding Christ's return will take place. NO ONE. I
don't care how "smart" and "knowledgeable" they think they are on the
subject. THEY DON'T KNOW.

But in the meantime, their inflated opinions of their own brilliance
mostly serve to make them totally indifferent to the loss of liberty
or even actively supportive of the forces that are trying to usurp
our God-given liberties. Either way, freedom loses.

The first question the disciples asked our Lord after His resurrection
from the dead concerned prophecy: “When they therefore were come
together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time
restore again the kingdom to Israel?” (Acts 1:6)

Look carefully at Christ’s response to them: “It is not for you to
know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own
power.” (Acts 1:7)

Did you get that? “IT IS NOT FOR YOU TO KNOW.”

Students of the scriptures have been studying “end time” prophecies
since the completion of the canon of Scripture. And the
interpretations have been, and still are, as varied as the people
proffering them.

We could assemble the most brilliant apologists in the world for the
various interpretations of Bible prophecy and let them present the
reasons for their interpretations and each of them would be able to
present a very coherent and convincing scriptural case for their
position. And the fact is, the best any of them would be doing would
be making a studied, educated GUESS at how it all MIGHT happen.

Come on! Get real, folks! Some of the smartest men of history have
been making educated guesses regarding the return of Christ since the
Apostle John finished writing the Book of The Revelation. Date
setters have come and gone--along with the dates they set--for 2,000
years. And the educated guessers of today are no smarter than they
were then.

Jesus wasn’t kidding around when He told the disciples (and us), “IT
IS NOT FOR YOU TO KNOW.” The one thing that He did want us to know is
that it is our duty to “Occupy till I come.” (Luke 19:13) Therefore,
until Christ comes (whenever that is), we are to “occupy” or “take
care of business.”

Regardless of one’s private interpretation of prophecy, our duty as
Christians is the same: we are to take care of business. We are to
tend to our family business, our vocational business, our spiritual
business, our community business, our national business, etc. Until
He comes, we have a divine mandate to “take care of business.”

Premillennial. Postmillennial. Amillennial. Pre-tribulation. Mid-
tribulation. Post-tribulation. Complete Rapture. Partial Rapture. No
Rapture. Dispensationalist. Preterist. When it comes to our duty to
“take care of business,” IT DOESN’T MATTER. We all have the same
duty.

Unfortunately, the preoccupation and obsession with Bible prophecy has
diverted people’s attention away from the business at hand. So many,
many Christians have become so heavenly minded that they are no
earthly good. And pastors and preachers are mostly to blame. They
spiritualize everything to the point that they have rendered the
scriptures of NO practical relevance whatsoever.

Talk to the average Christian about his or her duty to their country,
and they immediately zone out into a trance and start regurgitating
hackneyed clichés about how “God is in control” and we are not
supposed to be concerned about it because it’s not a “spiritual”
issue or how they are going to be “raptured” to heaven and escape all
of the bad stuff, etc. Furthermore, to the average pastor, duty to
country amounts to nothing more than some nonsensical drivel about
mindless submission to government. It seems to most pastors (well,
American pastors anyway) government is GOD. Romans 13 is the only
Scripture they know to cite--and they grossly misinterpret it to
boot. To most pastors, the stories of Daniel, the three Hebrew
children, the judges of Israel, David and Saul, Christ and the
Pharisees, the early church and the Judaizers, etc., are of NO
practical consequence to life today.

I challenge you to press your pastor with this question: “Were
America’s Founding Fathers scripturally justified in rebelling
against the British Crown?” Come on! I dare you to press your pastor
for an answer to that question. You might be shocked at just how many
pastors actually believe our Founding Fathers sinned by rebelling
against the government of Great Britain.

Yet in pulpits all over America, pastors lead their churches in
celebrating Independence Day on or around each July 4th. They wave
the flag, sing patriotic songs, and get up and talk about how
thankful they are to live in a free nation. But wait a minute! This
country they are celebrating is a nation birthed in rebellion. If
these pastors believe our founders were unjustified before God in
fighting that war for independence, how dare they turn around and
celebrate the victory of an act that they claim to find sinful? Talk
about hypocrisy!

It is little wonder why Christians are among the highest percentage of
people in the country who don’t vote; why Christians are among the
biggest cheerleaders for America’s incessant wars of aggression
overseas; why Christians are among the largest percentage of viewers
of the mainstream propaganda media (especially FOX News); and why
Christians (at least Christians in the United States) are among the
most gullible and easily duped people by Neocons and Zionists on the
planet. (Can anyone say G. W. Bush, Lindsey Graham, John McCain, and
Ted Cruz?)

And guess what the most consistent common denominator is for all of
the above? You guessed it: Bible prophecy. It is no hyperbole to
suggest that the more people obsess over Bible prophecy, the more the
devil likes it. Why? Because for the most part the obsession and
preoccupation with Bible prophecy takes a majority of Christians
completely out of the freedom fight. On the whole, churches stopped
being the “salt of the earth” decades ago. If you want a freedom
fighter in the foxhole with you, you will largely need to look
somewhere besides the average pastor and church.

I would dare say that the subject of prophecy takes up the greater
percentage of all of the sermons, Bible conferences, books, videos,
seminars, television and radio broadcasts, etc., in modern
Christendom. And what has it done for us? What has it done for the
church? What has it done for America? What has it done for the
suffering saints across the globe? What has it done for a lost and
dying world that desperately needs spiritual direction, leadership,
and purpose in this life? NOTHING. Not a dad-blasted thing (as my
father used to say). All it has done is rendered the church
completely ineffective, indifferent, and impotent. Oh, yes, and
conceited, arrogant, and proud.

Study prophecy all you want, but if doing so puts you on the wrong
side of liberty, it only fulfills the purposes of Satan, not God.

Not only that - but every time one of these guys claims to know the date or even roughly the time frame and turns out to be wrong, it discredits all of Christianity. It puts a religious spin on the term "useful idiots".

The best thing Christians can do (in this regard) is ignore the prognosticators and as the writer suggests, "take care of business" - which also includes observing the "beattitudes".

My experience with those obsessed with prophecy seems to be that they want to know how long they can do their own thing and still repent in time to go to Heaven.

speaking of prophecy, an older lady working as a pharm tech in a nearby pharmy told me one day that all True Christians would be far better off dead.

now, that's an encouraging thought to hear when dropping by to pick up a bag of medicine.

Looking at the world today makes me think the end may be closer to now than it was 2,000 years ago.

With that said, I'll close with my favorite Jefferson quote:

"Resistance to tyrants is obedience to God."

Her heart was in the right place.

Gotta wonder how specifically that reflection was connected to your visit.

I'm positive it's at least 2,000 years closer.

Not in any church I've attended more than twice.

well, at a 50,000 feet view of things, it was pretty encouraging actually. i knew she meant well in her sharing of important information.

and yes, if time really does end, we're some 2000 years closer to it than when Jesus walked the Urthen.

None of that happened in 70 AD. Jesus did not return visibly in the clouds like was promised. Satan was not sent to the pit (or this would be a sinless world), and this certainly isn't God's kingdom in it's full glory (how could God's kingdom be so rampant with sin).

Big difference between the producing of bountiful fruits and religious nuts.

I completely agree. I had never even heard of that 70 AD doctrine until a couple years ago. I've talked with some of those folks and there's no way to convince them any different.

I completely agree. I had never even heard of that 70 AD doctrine until a couple years ago. I've talked with some of those folks and there's no way to convince them any different. [quote]

I heard it forty years ago from an Episcopalian so it's not new.

Why would you waste time trying to convince someone of something that can't be proven either way?

God's default answer to a lot of questions seems to be: "What is that to YOU...... follow Thou me."

Obsession with some goat fugger fairy tales is way weird, prophecy or no.

Yes, over-attendance to the "end times" does occupy time and resources better given off to serve in the here-and-now, but this person sounds like a typical Reformer (the 70 AD reference identifies him as a amillennial preterist) meaning the spiritualization of all the prophetic scriptures, giving rise to the "50 different ways to leave your lover" interpretations of the apocalyptic scriptures. Preterists are one flavor of amillennialist and generally believe that all of Revelation had been fulfilled by 70 AD and has no significance for the future. Not quite so fast my friend!

While Jesus said no one knows the time, He also said "to know the seasons" meaning having circumstantial awareness of what's happening. And who can deny we are closer to the End that at any other time in history. Who can deny that "what is wrong is right, and what is right is wrong", is occurring before our very generation in our own country?

theres a great turning away out there for a reason, no doubt. if xtianity was real, why isn't it working better than it is?

in other words, has Real Christianity ever been tried? anyone know for sure?

to press further, in 2000 years of receiving the msg, then for certain here we are. how much further do we need to go, might you say?

that begs the question, if Christianity is so good, why haven't we installed it on the urth quite yet?? anyone know for sure?

Anyone claiming to know when the rapture will happen, instantly proves they are a false prophet. In Matthew 24:36, Jesus himself said "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only."

As George mentioned, we can see more and more of the prophecies happening around us, but how long before it happens is impossible for us to understand. God exisits outside of time as we know and understand it.

69 weeks have been fulfilled, the 70th week has not begun.

I feel strongly both ways.

What "the Bible says" wasn't the starting point for the Christian faith when Christianity first started because there was no Bible to say anything. The Jews had an Old Testament, which meant nothing to the Gentiles, and nobody had a New Testament. Despite not having The Bible, the church grew and flourished. The New Testament wasn't even put together until about 350 years or so after the events of Jesus' life on earth. But for the first 350 years of Christianity there were hundreds of thousands of people who became followers of Jesus...and without The Bible.

Well, they didn't have the organized "Bible" but they certainly had the apostle's and Paul's individual letters to the churches and individuals on hand. They just weren't fully organized into the canon of scripture yet so to say they had no scriptures is not correct. The latest NT book to be written was probably Revelation and that was by the 90's AD.

So, all these books were circulating around to the first century churches.

All they had were the teachings of Jesus remembered by those who heard Jesus teach. Paul didn't even show up for about 20 years, and his writings didn't circulate for another 20 or 30 or even 40 years later. The Gospels were written between 70 and 90 A.D.

I've been preaching for about 20 years and I almost never preach on end times events per se in a sermon dedicated to eschatology.

I think Christians need to spend more time learning how they should live right now rather than how the world will end.
I am not saying "end times teaching" is unimportant, but encouraging people to live pure and serve God more fully is much more important.

No, that wasn't all they had. They had the Holy Spirit. So do we, and He changes everything.

Well, that's what I said--Jesus and what He taught is the basis for Christianity as passed on by those who witnessed Him to the early church. Paul had a direct revelation from the post-Ascension Christ.

What is your point?

Edit: and Ricky is right!

I do too. I prefer an emphasis on Grace and the Power of God in us, than I do sin and it's consequences. That's fine for the unsaved, but even so, understanding who we are in Christ will draw more to Him, than fear of the penalty of sin. Races are not won looking back.

William Albright, who was not a Christian but a world class Ph.D archaeologist, said the entire New Testament was finished by the year 70AD. I think I will take the word of someone who actually dug up the area to make his discoveries rather than someone posting on the 'net.

A couple points:

1. Why would it necessitate that the Apostles write while they could actively preach?

2. And, it was not just the Apostles who "circulated" and preached. The early Church (numbering in the 100s), after suffering persecution, were scattered abroad preaching the Gospel...thus fulfill the Great Commission to preach the Gospel throughout the whole world.

rphguy,



What Parts of the New Testament are we to obey and what Parts are we not to obey?

The New Testament was the Devil's work. Gotta love everyone running around and bowing to a false prophet.

The author does a good job...speaking for the Devil.

You'll need to be more specific. I'm sure you have some in mind that you would rather not obey...and some that you have no problem with.

Scholars date Paul's conversion in the late 30's AD, only a few years after Jesus' Crucifixion. He studied under the Jewish theologian Gamaliel who died in 50 AD. It's believed that Paul studied under him for about 10 years before his conversion. He started his 1st missionary journey around 45 AD.

The majority of so-called end of days prophesy and the what and when is a Protestant construct and most of it is less than 200 years old and wrong.

The modern nation-state of Israel has nothing to do with God's chosen people or Biblical prophesy. We, The Church are Israel. All the promises are fulfilled. Israel the nation-state has nothing else coming to them or any special standing.



Not true. The Greeks had compiled all the ancient Jewish texts into the Septuagint and basically were worshiping God long before Christ was born. By doing so, the Greeks had actually preserved the original writings when the Hebrew texts were lost or destroyed.

When Christ and the Apostles were quoting what is now OT scripture, they were quoting from the Septuagint which was in common use at that time.

The Masoretic texts that the Reformers copied and translated for the Protestant Bible didn't become Jewish canon until about 1000 AD or so. The Masoretic texts were written in a manner to try and disprove Jesus Christ as the Messiah. They left several things out of some of the books that are found in the original Hebrew scriptures that were eventually translated into the Septuagint.

All of it. Those people were sheep shaggers riddled with syphilis.

Eschatology, scatology ... it all comes out in the end.

A word of warning. Ringman's a pharisee under the law. A law he creates in the New Testament though the sacrifice of Christ fulfilled all law. He's also leading and deceptive, thus his lead in about what to obey in the NT. He has no concept of Grace and is thoroughly intractable.

You must be related to mohick.

I always enjoyed the section about Noah, mostly because I like animals.

That the foundation of the Christian faith is not The Bible. The foundation of the Christian faith is not the infallibility or inerrancy of The Bible. The foundation of the Christian faith is something that happened in history...Jesus came to the earth and walked upon it, represented God, was God, and procured our salvation through His death and resurrection. *He* is the foundation of the Christian faith.

Was he in the New Testament?

Not so fast my Reformed, amillennialist friend. I wouldn't wax so dogmatic about that. When you say it is a Protestant construct in the last 200 years, it is correct that new and vibrant scholarship has brought it--dispensationalist premillennialism--to light in the last 200 years, but the early church fathers were premillennialist and only with the spiritualising the scriptures in the Alexandrian school in Egypt in the late 200 AD did they veer from those original beliefs and deny a most literal hermeneutic of the prophetic scriptures.

Origen was a principle in this and he informed Augustine whose amillennialism became the belief of the RCC and then the Reformers neglected to reform it back through the Reformation.

As to ethnic Israel, is God finished with them? Did he change His immutable (unchangeable) mind in regard to all the promises to the OT Abraham, Jacob, Isaac, and David? I think not; rather I would argue your Replacement Theology is a construct.

Most Reformed denomination members are immersed in these (your) beliefs if they are aware of them at all. I would argue, gently so, that they are a tradition of men.

That doctrine has been around for a while. I first heard it in 1965 presented by General William Harrison (He negotiated the Korean war truce) He had a platform full of large blackboards filled with scriptures. In his two hour presentation he explained why some Christians believe in a pre-tribulation rapture giving scriptures. He did the same with explaining the mid-tribulation rapture doctrine and the post-tribulation rapture doctrine. He also separately taught on the battle of Armageddon. I found that presentation fascinating and exciting. He told us that He had written a highly discussed paper on the topic as a senior at West Point. His view on eschatology was briefly explained as "there exists a vast number of views on the return of Jesus Christ and the only thing we know for certain is - it happens." "Timing, the sequence and meaning of events is speculation at best."

I tend to follow his line of reasoning.

I think you'd argue about the hue of blue in the sky

Of course it's based in Christ. The Bible is the expression of Gods redemptive plan of salvation the cornerstone of which is Christ.

I won't disagree, but would suggest that is splitting hairs a bit. Were it not for the Bible we would haves strayed far from the truth that is found there. I understand being put off by those who totally center their religion in the Bible, also understanding that Christianity is a relationship with the risen Savior. But the Bible is also a living document, and verses passed over for years of reading suddenly can point places we had never seen. Had God not believed the Bible essential for understanding, edification and growth, it never would have been written or remained intact to this day.

I believe that is the pan-tribulation doctrine: while there is truly no knowing of when, we do know it was all pan out. I subscribe to that one, too.

Come clean.

Ringman is a step-bro, no?

When did God start believing things? I always thought God is Omniscient.

I think God's promises to Abraham, Issac, Jacob and David as being father (s) of many nations is indeed fulfilled because through Christ the Gentiles (ie many nations) were grafted into the people God first chose to reveal Himself through have become one as the body of Christ in The Church.

I've only been saved for 34 years, and although I am not obsessed with Bible prophecy, I am more than a little interested in the topic, and somewhat aware of it, having taught some of its tenets on three continents.

Not all that passes for truth in regard to the Bible and Christianity on an internet hunting website is recognized as truth by God Almighty. Some of what has been said on this thread bumps lightly to the truth, and most of it doesn't.

The main theme of Bible prophecy left to us is the second coming of Jesus Christ to the earth to rule and reign. Men ought to read the Bible, and read less about what men say about the Bible. .

Exercise(s) in futility -- arguing doctrine with the already convinced. The main reason to pay attention to prophecy is all that have come true, mainly those about Messiah. Because God was faithful to his word about Yeshuah, we can be sure the rest of what is still unfulfilled shall be. In the mean time, how ought I/we to live? Being accountable before God when time shall be no more ought to be sobering, not inflaming -- a reason to bind brothers in the LORD together. Now THAT is something the devil cannot abide.

Philip Yancey says worldwide their are 34,000 denominations so far. We are not going to settle any of this online or anywhere else.

I know you do; that is known as Replacement Theology. Grafted INTO, yes, but no does that not imply the "original vine is still alive".

Agree with that.

I have a sneaking suspicion that God and J.C. are thoroughly enjoying the folks worrying about this topic. Every time a new preacher comes up with a new date for end times or some other emergency requiring the gullible to send more cash the consumption of heavenly pop corn goes up.

Jim

If that's the case, then the "Kingdom of God" (i.e., Earth after AD 70) is one F'KED up place. Also, if the entire prophecy were true and already complete, why continue to worship something that already happened and past and why worry about judgment already made?

"The Kingdom of God is not of this world . . ."

The kingdom of God is not meat and drink but righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost. (Romans 14:17)

I have those as a free gift from the Lord Jesus Christ imputed the instant I called on him to save me by grace through faith, and I am still on the planet, but not for much longer, I think. According to Bible prophecy and serious study of the perfect word of God.

A reasonable question at this point but all is far, far from finished and judgment is far from already rendered. PM me if you wish.

And (from Zechariah) the day of ten people apiece taking a Jewish man by the hand / robe, begging him to show them about their God is still to come. Also, the day when all Israel shall mourn Yeshuah's death as that of an only child / firstborn son -- still waiting. The only thing I've worked out must be true is that Revelation represents the resumption of God's prophetic calendar with respect to Israel, post the "times of the Gentiles".

Jesus prioritized 'people' over religious beliefs and values. The moment somebody places their religious beliefs and values over another person, they go backwards. Loving God, and demonstrating your love for God by how you treat other people, is at the very center of the center of the center of what it means to be a follower of Jesus. Do these things and you don't have to be concerned about much of nothin' else regarding The Bible or Christianity...everything else is filler material and commentary.

I think if IIRC, the Bible is God's innerant Word and Special Revelation.

Apparently, though, you have decided differently.

Please explain "replacement theology". I've never heard of the term before now.

I'm not implying the original vine is dead. Just hybridized becoming all inclusive........if you will. The Church is Israel. Not the modern-day nation-state.

If it's all about the modern-day nation-state of Israel, as some believe, then why bother being a Christian at all?

I'm curious if you tithe. If you do, has God rebuked the devourer at your house? If things still go wrong and break then He has not rebuked the devourer OR you are not the new Israel.

Replacement Theology or its rejection is the key to how you see end time scenarios; or, it distinguishes amillennialism from premillennialism. The latter belief system adherents believe in a literal thousand year rule of Christ on earth when He returns and the ultimate and final land-and-rule fulfillment of the promises God made to Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and David.

Though Israel is now a secular nation, premillennialists believe that God will finally in the end call a remnant out of ethnic Israel--the 144,000 in Revelation, twelve thousand from each tribe--and that remnant will respond with repentance and belief in Christ as Lord and savior. So, bottom line, God in this belief system still has ethnic Israel fulfilling roles at the end of the age; He is not finished with Israel as the amillennialists would believe. This is what premillennialists believe.

Replacement Theology holds that due to Israel's sin and disobedience, and rejection of Christ when He walked this earth, God has discarded them and their [/i] promised [i] inheritance and now sees the church--all true believers--as spiritual sons of Abraham and thus the now new recipients of all those promises God made to the above patriarchs in the OT.

The key that divides these two beliefs is how you interpret the scriptures or the hermeneutic one uses. Premill's use a normal-sense or most literal sense of the words written while amill's call these scriptural passages and end times prophecies metaphoric, and symbolic, etc.

Amill's, because they spiritualize these scriptures tend to make them say what each little group therein decides they do, up to fifty-some versions of what the end times may look like, while there is much less interpretive variation among the premillennialist group because they take the scripture as it is without reading into or out of it what they might be inclined to.

Long story short, All God's promises made in the OT to those Israelites of old He has declared null and void but "the church", or all true believers, are now to be the inheritors of those promises. That's Replacement Theology.

I believe it (amillennialism) has some serious problems. The RCC and protestant Reformed denominations like the RCA, the CRC, the Lutherans and Presbyterians, for example, as groups tend to be amillennialists. While the more charismatic groups such as Evan-Free, Church of God, and some Baptists, and others tend to lean to a premillennial eschatology (end time scenario).

It's certainly not all about Israel even if they respond back to God in the future. All believing gentiles (everybody not an ethnic Jew) were accepted into God's fold in the NT times when Peter had the dream of the "unclean and the clean" the upshot of which was that all of us unclean Gentiles (in the eyes of all Jews anyway which of course Peter was) were now to be equal par takers of God's grace through belief in Jesus Christ. Paul was thus commissioned to go and preach exclusively to the "unwashed" masses--us!

I'm proud to say I voted for Chuck Baldwin for President in 08 against McLame when he ran as the candidate of the Taxpayers Party.

I'm a Pan Millenialist; I believe God is in perfect control and it'll all pan out in the end... That is, that Christ will physically return and inaugurate a new heavens and new earth when and how He sees fit. The point in my mind of all eschatological writings is the fact that His return could come at any time. Every generation since has sensed that, yet here we are.

Faith, hope, and love but the greatest is love for the others will one day pass away...

I agree that there is a particular theological persuasion that accounts for the majority of Fubdamentalist Christianity in this country that has a penchant for obsessing over their eschatological viewpoints.

From a historical perspective, Dispensationalism actually developed first as a system developed from an eschatology which in my mind is a backward way to build a system of biblical doctrine given the lack of clarity around eschatological writings.

I agree with a lot of what RickyD has said; the message of God's gracious salvation offered in and thru His Son is by far the #1 message we all need to hear preached and see lived out before us. I'm terrible at it but pray to be more like my Lord and less like me by His power...

They were accepted in long before that; the fact that it took Israelites that long to get it was a big reason why the temple fell in Ad 70.

Christians are true Israelites; the one true Jew who ever lived was Christ and we follow Him. Galatians and the discussion on Hagar & Sarah makes this pretty clear.

I am confident that God will (and already has) work mightily in the nation of Israel down thru to he ages to call His people from that nation but there won't ever be a physical temple in Jerusalem as some contend. Hebrews is very clear on that point.

That any of us can be counted as His simply blows my mind...

As to your last statement, I heartily agree knowing me like I do.

For the other readers here, my good friend efw, represents the amillennial position; while I was raised in it I now lean the other way. However, these types of disagreements should never separate believers as neither belief has exclusivity on salvation and are not doctrines fundamental to the Christian faith.

I think the point of the whole Bible is that we CANNOT do those things; as a race we are depraved and unable to do right by God & neighbors apart from the regenerating power of God in Christ thru the Holy Spirit.

Absolutely true on all counts except the Amillenial part.

The term Amillenial was coined (tho many who use it don't necessarily mean it that way) as a derogatory mischaracterization of what is actually a form of post millenialism.

But I do adhere to the position so misnamed .

Bingo

Well, I wasn't intending to go that far "into the weeds". After all on the innanet we specialize in word bytes. 😀

The term replacement theology is one given to your system by those who disagree with it.

I happen to completely agree with you; I would call it a covenantal understanding of Scripture. The Church did not REPLACE Israel; it is a partial fulfillment of the OT promises to Israel. A down payment on the ultimate conclusion to history; the New Heavens & New Earth.

The modern nation state of Israel has no more to do with the redemptive purposes of God than Argentina or Bosnia.

Thank you for taking the time to explain.

Yeah, exactly what the fahq does that mean?

English m**********r, do you speak it?

Bingo.

This, is the reason I don't go to church, a bunch of back sliding hypocrites, BS con artists and betty-better-than-me's.

They can kiss my red ass while riding their tall horses starring down their noses at the rest of the world.

I believe all religion is based on fear as a way for a few to profit, just another BS business.

Just keep pumping money to those teleeeeee vangelists and we will all be alright!!!!!!!

Ya, God told me to:

Buy a jet
Build an amusement park
Put a satellite in space

No he Fu-kin didn't.

So sad that some of you guys have not had some contact with some of the real down to the basics, New Testament local churches that I have. Small in number of members, but big in their love for the Lord and the Scriptures. And happily devoid of many of the trappings that you dislike.

Don't quit looking yet. It might be the one with the unpaved parking lot and shingles that need replacing.

For those of us who are simple minded it appears that Mr. Jefferson is as close to the redeemer as we will ever get.

kwg

Yep, the true church, whether down the two-track lane or otherwise and only five folks, is the one preaching Christ as Lord and Savior.

You're welcome.

Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

A couple of thoughts:
(1.) Regarding the "encouraging thought," you need not assume she regards you as a Christian, so there's likely no suicide capsule in the prescription you picked up.
(2.) She was not speaking prophetically at all. Paul's letter to the Philippians is not placed in the prophetic category. She was merely reflecting on what he said in Philippians 3:21-24:


Steve.

My church does very little prophesy of any kind. The only time I hear of end times a Jahovahs ""Wittnesses."" as people that predicted end times . I dont worry about end times but worry about the way our country is heading and seems to be leading to the end times prophesies. And Steelhead, ya can't really say prophesies are equal to a cartoon book. Isaiah 17 sais Damascus will be a heap of rubble. Go on Yahoo images and look up Damascus. There are heaps of rubble all over the place. Bombed out buildings, just piles of rock. How did scripture writings 3,000 yrs ago know this? Also, Isaiah 18-19 talks about the Nile River drying up. Has not happened yet . Dont mean it won't happen. And if my faith in Christ is a fallacy and there is no hell or heaven , I won't know the difference anyway. If my faith is right the skeptics here are in for a big surprise. There is no way for me to loose. You may say I "blew my money " tithing. I say the unsaved blow their money on alcahol ( a poison according to MSDS) cigarettes , ( tar in your lungs) and addictive nicotine, strip bars , drunk driving tickets ETC. ( At least tithe is tax deductible , snicker) .

Dunno',....Obsession's am area to avoid, in my view.
Phrophesy ?
Makes for good folk music....

You are creating a division among believers that need not be there.

When you go beyond the two Great Commandments in search of "more knowledge", you are traveling with your head as a companion and - by implication - claiming you have fulfilled those TWO.

The way I look at it I don't DO prophecy or DWELL on it to the distraction of things more important and pressing; however, a good part of the Bible--say 25-30%--is prophecy or prophecy related. Now a lot of those have already literally been fulfilled.

For example, the Septuagint (an OT translation) written some three hundred years before Christ has some prophecies ( folks disagree on the exact number), let's say conservatively fifty, that describe Christ so specifically that statisticians say the chance any other person could have fulfilled those is so low as to be non-existent. For you doubters, you might ask how that could be.

And the OT is full of references to Christ and other prophecies that have been fulfilled. The implication then is, those unfulfilled will also be...but there is disagreement among Christians as to the how, where, and in what fashion. For example, that's where EFW, TRH and I disagree but I a not dogmatic about it as there are a lot of brilliant theologians on both sides of the fence on how to interpret these scriptures and hence what they mean.

But, Jesus did say to "know the seasons" or what we might describe as the birth pangs of the last times so that is why it is also important to look at these scriptures like those in Daniel, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Joel, and Revelation, etc, not to pick dates for Christ's return or for the Rapture (which is foolishness) but to be aware--have circumstantial awareness of the times in regard to what the Bible says. Who would not agree for example that our nation is generally on a trajectory of degradation from its beginnings?

Why? What is happening? What are the implications of multinationalism, multiculturalism? Talk of a common international currency? What is behind the consolidation of power by our government and among governments with international agencies and governing bodies? This is not just paranoia or whacked out conspiracy theorizing either.

Regardless, Christ is the focal point of both Old and New Testaments and He will be again at the Second Advent when He will come as the Lion of Judah and judge of all and all injustice, not as the lamb to the slaughter as He did when first He came. Our salvation is through Him and Him only amd I would desire all who have not believed to seriously consider that today.

I'm 67 and am reminded daily by those I know, and read about (includinghere) that life is very tenuous and really quite short; we never know when we will die or be told we soon will so today is the next, best time to accept that Cnrist paid a personal price for you and to trust Him as Lord and Savior.

The search continues for many of us.

One can hold to the understanding of the thief on the cross (that is that we are incapable of loving God and neighbor apart from Christ's redeeming work) plus a little more and still recognize we have not "arrived".

There have been many saints down through the ages who have proven that in spades.

Fact is, I've observed as much self-righteousness from the "two great commandments" crowd as I have from those who go well beyond what I consider justified by scripture. Why?

Because we are all sinners still looking for Adam & Eve's dream of being God rather than accepting our limitations and God's gracious gift in Christ. It's the human condition; we're all just like our first parents.

Cur dog, how so? Do you deny what I stated about God's Word? If what you say is true then why didn't God just stop with the Two Great Commamdments? Why all of the rest of the scriptures?

I suspect I understand a bit of your intent and if so I agree and strongly disagree with those folks whose "faith" becomes only an academic exercise or who go blindly down some road to occultism or to cult formation but generally I look upon the Word of God as a gold mine that is impossible to for us to completely exhaust while we become even more in awe of who and what God is and what He did for us..

Are what you saying that all the theologians from Paul to Augustine to Luther and Calvin were wrong in studying Gods Word and that it was a waste of time?

I Would strongly disagree with that.

They've (Christians AND their churches) done a pretty poor job as a whole. With 83% of Americans professing to be Christians (about 250 MILLION people), you'd think that things would be WAY better here than they are. You'd think that these folks, collectively, would be a HUGE influencial and driving force. But they're not. If all of these Christians would simply do what Jesus did, it would have a profound postive impact on this country in a years time. People don't resist Christians because they love others too much. People don't resist Christians because they are too welcoming of others. People don't resist Christians because they are too willing to carry others people's burdens. People don't resist Christians because they're so forgiving and so open and so gracious.
What people find so easy to resist about Christians is the hypocrisy and the 'we know it all, and we're better than y'all' attitude that many of em' seem to have.

People don't resist Christianity because of Jesus...people resist Christianity because of Christians.

There is certainly some truth to that but it is far from the whole story on why "things are not better than they are".

While what you say contains some truth you oversimplify to the point that what you say or imply is badly in error.

Doing Christian things is really helping Europe out, but it doesn't matter, they'll be rewarded in the afterlife I guess.

To the above post. I have heard this all my life, and at the same time watching these people criticize christians they are every bit as bad and think nothing of it. Matter of fact, non chrisitan look for anything about the fault of a christian so they can judge them. If you judge someone, you better be and have little if any shortfalls yourself. This post is a perfect example. It started out about bible prophesy and it turns into a bitch session from non christians about christian. If you dont like us , or the thread there are plenty others on 24 hr to go to. Why are you non christians even here if ya can't stand us hypocrites? DOnt think us christian do much ? Our church supports a christian church in Iran, Cuba and Ireland. During Katrina there were church groups all over helping. I didn't think there were any atheist , or non christian , muslim, J.W. , groups there. After this mess in Louisiana I am sure many will be back. Finding a few unlikable christians and judging them all is like finding a half dozen jackasses on the campfire and saying everyone there is a jackass.

What are you talking about?

We are all jackasses!

Following the teachings of Jesus is really simple. He said so Himself. "My yoke is easy, and my burden is light". When people complicate it, they likely do a disservice to themselves, and others.
Believers are often content to 'believe' something rather than 'do' something. The real core is in the application. They too often define themselves by 'telling' others what they are 'against', rather than by 'showing' others what they are 'for'.
There are certainly many bad seasons in The Church's history. And it's influence, collectively, in the world today is pretty weak, especially when you consider that over 2 BILLION people profess to be Christians.
But just because it 'has' been that way in the past, and because it 'is' that wy presently...doesn't mean that it has to stay that way.
Many things that people resist about The Church, and Christians themselves...are things that The Church, and Christians, ought to get rid of...*if* loving God, and demonstrating their love for God by how they treat others, is *really* at the center of their professed faith.

Well said.

Worse than a waste of time as far as I'm concerned. It counterfeited the simple message Jesus brought to the world.

Not one single bit of "theology" ever helped a single man choose right from wrong. Only the Spirit can do that. And Theology never brought a single soul to conviction. Only the Spirit can do that.

"Theology" is only useful to reprove others and exhibit brainpower.

Agreed. Wholeheartedly.
He told us what it meant to be His follower...the very essence of what it was to be His follower was given to us by Him in His simple teachings. And now, 33,000 different Christian denominations later...all due to differences in 'theology'...His simple message has been distorted and convoluted by many who profess to be 'Christians'.

i just don't think jesus would be all that pleased with the size of our human carbon footprint. but, of course i culd be wrong.

jesus didn't burn much energy in his campaign here on the Urth, did he?

Can't take credit, LOL.

Thy This.

Malachi 3:8-12

“'Will a man [m]rob God? Yet you are robbing Me! But you say, "How have we robbed You?" In tithes and [n]offerings. You are cursed with a curse, for you are robbing Me, the whole nation of you! Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, so that there may be food in My house, and test Me now in this,' says the Lord of hosts, 'if I will not open for you the windows of heaven and pour out for you a blessing until it overflows. Then I will rebuke the devourer for you, so that it will not destroy the fruits of the ground; nor will your vine in the field cast its grapes,' says the Lord of hosts. 'All the nations will call you blessed, for you shall be a delightful land,” says the Lord of hosts.'"

Your posts seems like you know more than others here. If you get some followers you will do what you are accusing other of doing.

You are rejecting some of God's Word. He tells us to "Grow in Grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ." When do you think one should not obey this?

Antlers amd Curdog, all I can say is that is very seriously in error.

Pot,..meet Kettle.


I don't believe so. There wasn't a "Bible" until at least some time after 325 A.D., only a collection of writings that were scattered about too and fro. There would have been no way for early believers to compile all of these teachings, and Jesus knew it would be that way.

When Jesus was asked what was the Greatest Commandment in the Law, Jesus gave us Matthew 22:37-40 to break it all down into the simplest of terms for all of those that would follow after he was gone:

Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

The sum of Christianity in 4 verses.

But humanity and Christians, for the most part, can't follow these two simple instructions. They have to revel in their theology and form denominations preaching "this is bad" and "this is good", do this, do that, don't be like those guys who dance and go to movies, when everything is laid out before them so beautifully.

If humanity could follow Jesus's two simple instructions, the Bible wouldn't even be necessary.

The Bible, divinely inspired and the Word of God, yes, but it all hangs on 3 verses, according to Christ himself.

I ain't looking for followers........ or leaders. I believe I'll just let everybody find God the way I did........ let Him reveal Himself.

As far as your second paragraph........... I can tell Paul and God apart.

Somehow I don't believe that is "all you can say". I expect you'll be expounding more theology before this thread goes away.

If man could follow them Christ wouldn't have had to take on flesh and die.

Of course the ironic fact that so many who tout the anti-theology line is that anti-theology is in and of itself a theological argument.

That is, there is no such thing as a person who doesn't theologize; only those who Come to a system that is out of synch with God's revelation of Himself.

There is no doubt, however, that application of good theology (literally knowldge of God) will fulfill Christ's great commandment. Problem is I've never figured out how to perfectly apply biblical theology. That is, no matter my knowledge of God and what is right sin is always nearby...

I'm sorry if you think it was just "theology". And I actually know how to quit. 🙄 😀

Thanks though for not throwing stones. I appreciate it.

I agree and as to your last sentence--it's why we need and have a savior.

I had a neighbor for a short while who believed that God only speaks through the bible and that, apart from the bible, there is no revelation of Him.

He belonged to a Church of Christ and claimed it was central to their beliefs.

My Great Uncle has worked his way into being a Deacon or Bishop or whatever the CoC calls elders.

He didn't go see Moses in Branson, MO because parts of the show, according to him, are un-Biblical. Of course, I wasn't baptized in the Church of Christ by an official member of the Church of Christ, so I'm going to Hell by default..

They're a very special bunch..

Interesting thread......

I'll leave the light on for you.

There should be plenty of light, just don't forget the marshmallows...

The conflict between the believers is sometimes surprising...

Sounds like bad theology to me sir; just like guns, bad use doesn't condemn the thing in my mind.

I'll bring the chocolate and I bet George'll cover the graham crackers...

What conflict?

Christians are created, not cloned. The things we disagree on are about their relative importance rather than their substance.

First time I met my wife's Aunt we were sitting together at a wedding reception.

Out of nowhere the crazy old bird starts rollin' her eyes around and starts making the damndest noises I'd ever heard.

Pretty certain she was having a stroke or seizure, I jumped outta my chair and started around the table. My wife grabbed my arm as I was mid stride and starts yanking me back around the table in a panic. I blurt out..YOUR AUNTS HAVING A SIEZURE!!!

It got real quite and everybody was staring, including the aunt.

Turns out the old nut was a honest to god Jesus freak and was speaking in tongues.

It was awesome.

At one time I decided to ask almost everyone I encountered if they are a Christian. Almost everyone said they were. Then I asked them what it takes to be a Christian. Many said you have to be born in America. So because they claim to be Christian does not make them a follower of Jesus and His teaching.

How do you know what God said?

Yikes.

Because He has never indicated to me what you or any other human ought to be doing, thinking, or saying, I reject the notion that He endowed any of y'all with special insight in that regard.

Sometimes it's hard to distinguish folks who are Spirit led from those that are led by their ego............ most times it's not.

I would have reserved my "YIKES" for this comment.

+1

That's right, I'm pretty sure Jesus didn't even have a pair of shoes or a dang mule, he certainly did'nt care to have the Mercedes-Benz' or mansions/palaces of the day.

MAN has ruined organized religion for me, greed and weakness for the flesh and straight BFS cons for money out of guilt are the clinchers!

I wonder if Jesus thinks its OK for Joel Osteen to have all that stuff?

I would think not, osteam is one of the ones I'm talking about, and lest we forget the, "I'm gonna need 9 million dollars or Gods gonna call me home oral roberts"

What a load of steaming BFS that guy sold!

And lest we forget the PTL ( Pay The Lady...) club...

Yeah, An all the preachers that suddenly believe on their fake ordainment that they are now PHD psychologists, yes, yes sister, come on in the office and bend over the desk here and we'll discuss your marriage problems. WTF?

You didn't answer the posted question.

Of course I did. If you can't understand my answer, get help.

All I read was some pontification. Is there anyone here who will explain how his answer answered my question?

If you need help with understanding that comment, you need help with a lot more than that. Some men aren't as easily baited as you think, Ringman.

Thanks, Keith.

Nope you didnt answers the question curdog4570, you gave some sort of delusional reply and now you claim he doesnt understand the answer.....you need help hommie !!

It's never surprising to me. Almost always amusing. No... always amusing. Some (most) people grow up and realize Santa, the Easter Bunny and the Tooth Fairy aren't real. The rest of us (few though we may be) realize there are no sky fairies either.

A simple look at the religions of the world (all of which claim to be the one true way/religion/etc) through an evolutionary lens and you realize they're almost all the same story. Virgin birth, death, resurrection, all the same basic story.

Then there's the ones who ride the short bus. They think humans walked the earth with dinosaurs. And that Jarvis/Yahweh/some ghost thing, which are three separate things but one all at the same time, created the earth 6,000 years ago based on some stuff some idiot in the dark ages 'figured out' by reading the bible... which was written by men. That's just... sexist somehow. And racist I'm sure, but I don't have the time to study it right now to figure out how it's racist. But I'm sure it is.

What's up Stevil, my ni gga!! Go eat a bag of dicks.

He answered it negatively; and accurately.

There has been and always will be much done under the guise of Christianity that is in no way related. likewise, there were and will be many who come in Christ's name who are false teachers. And there are many who claim they are Christians but who are not as witnessed by what they say and how they live.

One hell of a conversation stopper......

No, it's a valid question. Just be ready for a bunch of convoluted answers that will not reflect what the Lord knows to be true about the folks doing the answering.

I've had people ask me if I'm a Christian.

I've yet to meet one who was satisfied with a simple "yes".

I'm betting the same holds true for the "No" answers.

Where is 280Don?

Without Jesus...

...the night weighs heavy
On his guilty mind
This far from the borderline
When the hit-man comes
He knows damn well
He has been cheated...

There's some real truth there. The most anointed Pastor I've ever had the blessing to call my friend and mentor preaches in a little church on the north east side of Des Moines with a small gravel parking lot. The kind of man who you have to wonder how and why he's not in a mega church from the truth and clarity he conveys, then you understand that's just not what most people want. Pity!

AND who we are in Him. One without the other is only a history lesson.

I'd believe that the leadership in Europe who have created the muslim crisis have about the same percentage of Christians as the muslim refugees: about zero. Europe has largely abandoned Christianity before the 19th century.

Real Christians have no death wish for themselves, their faith, or their children. Jesus made sure they were armed when he sent his disciples into the world.

I've yet to meet a person who wasn't in Him and could stand to sit through much preaching of Christ as the One and Only Lord & Savior.

Our longtime minister of nearly a quarter century just retired our congregation and helped a new man transition in. His last official act as our senior pastor was this past Friday when he married my oldest daughter to a fine young man who he helped to lead to the Lord several years ago.

He is one who talks the talk so as to make anyone with a heart for Christ weep, and who walks the walk in such a way as to make the same man want to follow. All while admitting he has a long way to continue on the road to Zion.

What a blessing such men are to Christ's Church.

Brother Keith said it well; if you haven't found it don't stop searching. The community of believers in which the Lord has planted me has done more than words can say in helping me in my pilgrimage through this life.

I find it sadly amusing so many convict Christians on the crime of hypocrisy when all of humanity is guilty of the same.

And it does become hard for some not to appear to know it all, or feel better about themselves when they learn what is required to be saved from eternal hell and also have found the faith to believe it. Kinda like suddenly going from death row in a horrible place of torment to total freedom and peace, and winning a huge lottery the same day. And then not telling anyone.

But we'll work on that.

Even if it doesn't sound like it.

I think that some of the people that gunner500 was specifically referring to in his post, the one that I responded to...and the one that you partially referenced above, are the ones who give lip service to being 'Christians' and seem to be much better at policing the behavior of others than they are at policing their own behavior. They come across as being pretty judgemental, very moralistic, kinda hostile even, disingenuous, and quarrelsome...and very hypocritical because of the difference in their professed beliefs and their behavior. And many here have likely experienced those who think that they are the only ones going to heaven and everyone else is going to hell...and they actually seem to relish that notion...!

That's between Him and Joel. Might be just fine, and it might not.

Lot and Abraham made a good living (gross understatement), and the Lord was tight with them, even though many of today's churches wouldn't let them in the door if parts of their life showed up in the newspapers. Particularly, Abraham, and all this started with him.

It's all about faith and how you use it. Just believing and getting saved is only the first baby step. God expects much more.

Could be. And there are some that just believe that of all Christians because they do. Both are right because people are people and humanity is frail and fickle as it was designed to be.

One of the many things I like best about actually reading the Bible is discovering how the most revered men of biblical history had some really un-Godly tendencies of all manner.

People God used to introduce Him to the world and made great men of renown. The men never changed all that much, but first and foremost had the faith to do God's bidding. At least at some point. Along the way, they flailed and failed and failed some more. Just like me. And maybe you, too. Perhaps all of us if we're honest.

And THAT is what keep my faith sound, and just another reason, that BOOK is the most valuable thing in my life. And should be in your's too, because without it, think of the lies we would be fed.

It ain't.

Correction noted and highly approved. 😊

What do you guess is the percentage of 'Real Christians' in the US of A?

The Lord is the only one who knows for sure, but my guess is that the number is FAR lower than the numbers of people on the membership lists of the so-called Christian churches. Hard to put a number on it, but likely not very far into double digits . . . . . the Lord knows. Sad really.

I know I'm a Christian, because of Christ's redeeming work for me. I deserve the lowest hell. Jesus paid it all. Hallelujah!

I do not find this: "People don't resist Christianity because of Jesus...people resist Christianity because of Christians" to be the case in my experience.

Seems that pride, love of sin and lack of desire to know God are big players in this game. What about those that " ...loved the darkness...?" John 3:19

Sure, you hear this quite a bit but maybe it is because they are resisting for other reasons that are not as easily said.

Seems this is simply a smug reply that does not represent the truth of the matter.


TF

Dr. Kindell told me Ph.D scientists and professors reject Jesus for the same reason the truck driver and the ditch digger do. They don't want to submit to God's authority. Any excuse works for anyone. Like my brother used to say, "Pick one and stick with it."

True. No one is saying all of humanity isn't guilty of hypocrisy. Part of being Christian is humility.

The problem is with the arrogant, self-righteous, holier-than-thous, that thump their Bibles condemning everyone else and telling them how they should live and then they themselves do different.

Christ was pretty clear about hypocrites in Matthew.

Five percent.

Sure, there is a problem with humility.

When I first became a follower of Jesus, I did not feel like a "really bad sinner." Yep, I knew there was a spiritual void in my life and it was filled by the Lord, but still, I was not a "really really bad sinner."

Then as I began to grow in the Lord, I began to see my sin differently, perhaps as He sees it and sees me. I have come to be aghast at my attitudes and behaviors.

Early on in my Christian life, I was comparing myself to others that I ran into in my life and "frankly, I came out pretty good in that comparison."

Then, I began to compare myself to Jesus and then I began to be heartsick at the sin in my life.

I suspect there are others like me.

TF

Some of these posts about hypocrisy sound like these posters think thy're going to meet God as a comity.

I honestly don't give a crap what other Christians say, do, or how they act. I'm responsible for me.

As Keith said, only the Lord knows. But If I was to guess,I'd say half who check the box on a questionaire. But I like to be optimistic. It takes very little effort, once we come to terms with who we are, what we need, and how to get it.

I've been in a lot of churches and really haven't encountered a lot of people like that. That's not to say there are none. But those who are, I just smile and ignore sometimes correct and walk off if I feel the need. Much like the clerks in gun shops who know so much that's not so. Again, it's just people being people and pride is at the heart of it and also the great destroyer. That's why we hate it when we see it in others and miss it in ourselves.

To say that some 'Christians' don't often come across as being unkind, intolerant, harsh, judgmental, and self-righteous when they claim they are just trying to convey the message of Jesus is more than a little bit disingenuous. People aren't resisting the message of Jesus...they *are* resisting the messengers that come across just as I described above.

But when a person crosses over into death, they do not have the defense that there were hypocrites in the church or Bible thumping holier than thou. The question will be,"what have you done with Jesus who is called Christ?"

He that hath the son of God hath eternal life, and he that hath not the son of God hath not life, but the wrath of God abideth on him. John 3:36. Do you have the son of God? Yes or no?

Yes, there are hypocrites in church, we all know this. But I'm with the crowd that would rather sit by a hypocrite in church for my few short years, than spend eternity with them in hell. But it is your choice, not mine.

Plenty of examples just in this thread.

Some seem to think that a man is apt to find the "wrong god" absent their own "expert" guidance.

They spend all their energy attempting to convince another that the 30 06 is the only cartridge worth consideration when their proposed convert hasn't even decided to buy a rifle yet.

Well, I agree with you that "some" are like that. But let me ask if, in the church you attend, are "most" like that or "some?"

And so you speak for all the people? All the people where? In your house, in your state or in your head? You might find this hard to believe, but many people process information differently and so react to things differently. Maybe even differently than you.

Well said.

It's as simple and that.

The exact number is in a book called The Book of Life. It's referred to a number of times in the Bible and is held by the Lord. We have no access to it at this time.

*Any* is too many.

In the same way, let 'your' light shine before others, that they may see your church attendence and say, "Dang, he's a good Christian." - Matthew 5:16 NIV

I thank God that He does not view believers as many of us view each other.

[/b]

Originally Posted by antlers

Originally Posted by Allen917

Originally Posted by gunner500

This, is the reason I don't go to church, a bunch of back sliding hypocrites, BS con artists and betty-better-than-me's.
They can kiss my red ass while riding their tall horses starring down their noses at the rest of the world.

Yes, there are hypocrites in church, we all know this. But I'm with the crowd that would rather sit by a hypocrite in church for my few short years, than spend eternity with them in hell. But it is your choice, not mine.

In the same way, let 'your' light shine before others, that they may see your church attendence and say, "Dang, he's a good Christian." - Matthew 5:16 NIV

You might want to sit and reflect on your interpretation of that verse, cause to me it reads "Let your light (life) so shine before men, that they may see your good works, glorifying your Father which is in heaven."

Like the old hymn says, "To God be the glory great works he has done"

Another excellent point! Nice to see you again, Sam!

It's also nice that He doesn't view non-believers as many believers view them.

Where did you two thumpers read where I said I didn't believe in God?

I hate what man has done to the church, and don't purposefully hangout with asswholes, don't believe I've ever read where 'one should congregate' to have a relationship with God.

Plus, I don't trust any mother-fu-ker that wont cuss.

Yeah, what that a-sshole said^^^^

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^BWAAHAHAHAHA^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I didn't mean that at all. Just was agreeing with the man that putting up with people is what I chose to do rather than staying away. Sorry you took it that way. It wasn't intended as such.

I'm also in total agreement about what man, and institutions, have done to the church. It didn't take them long.

I'm more of a Patton Christian in my speech sometimes, too. Rode a Harley too long, maybe. At least that's what I tell my kids.

No harm no foul here RD.

I could use that excuse but it'd make me a hypocrite cuz I can't not hang out w/ myself .



I cuss more than I should.

There are churches out there that aren't full of hypocrites. The place where the Lord has planted me has a few (if I found the perfect church my joining would ruin it) but generally speaking their genuine, authentic sinners saved by grace seeking to grow in that same grace.

There was a long time when I was younger when I cynically avoided houses of worship like you do and for the same reasons you do. Eventually I realized that I was going easy on the hypocrites outside church... I mean they're all over... and I wasn't disassociating from them. I've never regretted going back, although I've had to deal with a little crap here and there. We found a place we call home and the people in the congregation have treated us like family.

Because that's what we are.

Well, at least you guys are trying to live and act right, I've got a chitload more clearing to do before I can settle down and start acting reverent ;]

You already did in accepting my explanation gracefully. That's all God expects of us. Thankfully! It's the BS evil world that tries to hold Christians to perfection not understanding we're not perfected in us, but by Christ in us. And He partied with sinners like we've likely never seen!

The non-believer will hear "I never knew you" from God, which isn't good. God wants to know everyone though.

We were discussing the 'present' sense. God is 'for' everyone we are ever eyebell to eyeball with. And every person we are ever eyeball to eyeball with is made in the image of God...and people matter to God, so people should matter to people. Other people should especially matter to 'believers'.

Do you fix your car BEFORE you take it to the mechanic. Often you would take it to the mechanic because you tried to fix it and screwed it all up.

Yep. People seal their own fate, as God desires a relationship with everyone. Believers should love everyone, yes, and pray for them.

Now THAT is good satire in that it describes a good many folks, but they won't recognize themselves.

I've had a lot more spiritual conversations with a couple of hunting campaneros, discussing the Creator God than I've ever had partaking in the Hallelujah, praise Jesus, chorus.

Or in a battle of bible verses.

No, you have to look at the full 360 degrees of possible employs, I stated I don't like to hang with hypocrites, and the really nice church folk that do believe, act it and live it, and are genuinely good Christian folk, don't need to be seated next to a sorry dirty black hearted fu-ker like me.

You see, it works both ways.

As I said, I'll complete my chit clearing, retire, then maybe settle down some day.

Yup, same same Curdog.

I'm so thankful that one of the first things my Dad taught me was to love God. The next thing imposed on my young life was to appreciate the price Jesus paid for my sins...all of them. After accepting Jesus as your savior one can and does not have to live in guilt or doubt ever. No decent Christain wants to sin but it is so nice to know that our sin has been washed away at the cross. powdr

my only concern is that we are beginning to drag this thingy out too far. of course everything happens in God's own time.

but, for those of us full of piss & vinegar, and wanting to attack the infidels, we know the clock is running.

i just wish the Powers that Be, whomever that is, could come up with a common set of Interpretations of the various verses of the bible. but the challenge is, there were no verses early on. oh well, surely we can overcome such a disadvantage from the start.

No disadvantage.

What do you think the Lord and Moses were doing for so long on that mountain top? God was telling Moses how the beginning really was, without the folk tales, so he could write Genesis. It doesn't take that long to write a few, "Thou Shalt Not's", even in stone.

in my limited understanding, i always thought if we could have found a way to integrate Lilith into the mainstream of the hebrew tradition, we'd all have been better off from the start.

but given that failure, we were dealing with second option stuff from the very early days.

given that, so far so good.

Gus, RD had a pretty good answer.

While I am not emphatic or dogmatic about it, I lean toward what among Christians is the known as the Young Earth view; that is that the earth is a relatively young ~ 6000 years old. This approximate figure is arrived at by computing chronogeneologies that start in Genesis. Assuming that is true consider the following:

Before all the resident scientists here gnash their teeth and need an extra, late afternoon toddy, let me add that one day science will catch up to the Bible. THAT ought to lead outright drooling seizures..and another toddy. But just remember when we all thought the earth was flat and review Galileo's story if you need too for context. Also, remember carbon-14 dating, which is primary in giving us billions of earth years, is built on presuppositions.

If creation was at "0", the Flood was about "1600 AM" (anno mundi-the year of world), and Moses (the Exodus from Egypt), whom Ricky references, was about 2300 IIRC.

Now according to the Bible, from Adam to the Flood, folks lived a good part of a millennium, or a thousand years, or more than half the time to Moses and these folks "had" the masthead of God's personal revelation in The Garden. So Moses knew the history of the earth or had heard it by oral tradition even before his climbing the hill where as RD explained he may have had a personal downloading of the whole story.

Bank on it.

And who the heck is Lilith that we integrate her? C'mon Gus. Let's make the time worthwhile.

ya ever study or visit the stories of the ancient hebrews about the beginning of humans on the face of the Urth? just askin', not pointing fingers at all. all of this stuff that crosses my mind came from a Conservative Rabbi, that left the Orthodox side of the business after being freed from the camp at Dachau.

Lilith, i think, is listed here & there in the Google search machine. i don't know why, but there she is, anyways.

i do believe we humans are doing the best we can, given the information we have, and our best understandings. we'd need better info, in order to do lot's better. or a bunch of pure luck. lol.

😃 🙄...That IS funny.

Yeah, the same kind of "presupposistions" of nuclear physics and nuclear chemistry that led to the discovery of nuclear fission, nuclear power, and linear accelerators to treat cancer, for example...ALL are realities.

Carbon-14 helps date objects up to about 50,000 years old, not "billions of earth years". Potassium-argon and uranium-lead dating methods help date objects much older.

Why don't you post some identifying information so we can appreciate the expert you are?

I don't mean to be harsh but just for some context.

I wish I could incorporate the two...

It's been done.

Friend I have news for you, really good news. Righteousness or right standing with God comes through faith in Jesus Christ not by being good or going to church. He just gives it to you for believing. (Ephesians 2:8). The chit cleaning has already been done, and you have done nothing that God does not already know about and can handle.

You are operating under the misconception of "genuinely good Christian folks" of which there is no such thing. There are only dirty black hearted fu-kers that God counts as righteous for the sake of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Please read the first 8 chapters of the book of Romans with that in mind.

Why don't you...?

You *first* made the claim that Carbon-14 dating gives us "billions of earth years"...!

High school chemistry and high school physics negates that claim.

The devil loves what....knowing his time is waxing short...?

Showing someone else's mistake does not establish your credibility. You didn't address his question.

Ok, antlers, my identifying info is on my profile for anybody to look at.

Secondly, are you saying "carbon-14" has not figured into the suggested old age of the earth? Your comments on theology-the knowledge and study of God--the subject of this thread--were certainly prescient, now, to this subject. Again. As is your pattern.

Why as a supposed believer (or not?--I'm confused) are you always around biting ankles and knit-picking? Why don't you add something positive?

Carbon-14, itself, isn't even to the point of my previous post.

Sounds like you don't like someone to question the things you post. Sounds like you don't like someone to challenge your claims.

Ya' mean like agreeing with you...?

For *you* to question anyone else's 'credibility' is pretty funny.

That's very informative RJY, I may read those scriptures some evening, only thing here is The King James version though.

Most prophecy has been fulfilled. The book of revelation has lots of stuff in it that people claim to understand, they even have charts graphs and huge boards of stuff that they preach as the true meaning. I'm sorry, but if you think you got it all figured out you don't know a dang thing, if you claim to only know Christ and him crucified, then you probably have exactly what you need to know figured out. I don't even read revelation cause I don't care how it all comes to pass. I just keep on keeping on and do my best to live like a good person and repent for when I fumble the ball. I do a lot of that. I'm a turd.

Revelation came very close to not making it into NT canon and was not part of the NT teaching for a long time. Even now most really can't decipher the majority of its meaning with any certainty.

I agree. One does not have to "clean up his act" to approach God. I offered some thoughts one time for a guy who said he did not want to be a Jesus follower because he did not want to stop drinking. I said he should pursue the Lord and continue to drink all he wanted to. First things first. God can deal with hearts and mold the clay.

My credibility is not the one being asked about. When someone stoops to ad hominin attack they show they have no argument.

Of course I did. If you can't understand my answer, seek help.

Nobody here asks about 'your' credibility anymore.

antlers,



You are either obfuscating or are not able to keep up with the conversation. I think it's the former.

You are under the mistaken impression that I care what you think on this matter.

I posted "I think the former," for my benefit.

It's clear from your posts here that everything you say and do is for *your* benefit.

Jesus as a man did not know the Times and Seasons until His Ascension and Glorification.
Mark13:32 "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father."

He, Jesus, received them from His Father.
Rev 1:1 "The Revelation of Jesus Christ which God gave him to show his servants-things which must shortly take place."

Jesus gave them to John, and also to Paul, concerning the Times and Seasons to the End of the the Age.
1 Thess 5:1-2 "But concerning the times and the seasons brethren you have no need that I should write to you. For you yourselves KNOW perfectly that "the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night."

Did you get that? "IT IS GOD'S WILL FOR HIS SERVANTS TO KNOW!"

Ringman,

It seems to me that he is very sensitive and cannot stand it when someone challenges what he says. Note that he posted this, a broad blanket statement with absolutely no validity or support for it:

"People don't resist Christianity because of Jesus...people resist Christianity because of Christians."

I replied and simply said that that this was not my experience and he posted this:

"To say that some 'Christians' don't often come across as being unkind, intolerant, harsh, judgmental, and self-righteous when they claim they are just trying to convey the message of Jesus is more than a little bit disingenuous. People aren't resisting the message of Jesus...they *are* resisting the messengers that come across just as I described above."

Of course, note that I did not say what he implied at all I never said that some Christians don't often come across as.... yada yada........ He added and twisted what I said. I was not disingenuous, he was. He intentionally misconstrued and then posted a poorly thought out "rebuttal."

He also bobs and weaves a bit. Note that he never answered the following question:

"Well, I agree with you that "some" are like that. But let me ask if, in the church you attend, are "most" like that or "some?"

I guess you could say that yes, he was "obfuscating" with his non-answer that "any" was too much. He sure evaded answering the question didn't he?



Further, there was post by George and this guy picks out an obvious error about carbon dating and proceeds to ding on the guy for it. He ignored the main point of the post and got stuck on this. Why? It seems to be "disingenuous" to me. Yep, he was finding fault with a minor point and ignoring or perhaps not comprehending the main point of the post. Seems to me he WAS nitpicking.

He exhibits troll like behaviors.


TF





btw, in general, I agree with George in that while I do not know the age of the earth, I suspect it is younger than most believe. Honest science and data is what it is but junk science and politically correct conclusions not supported by the data is simply a new way to pass off lies to those with itching ears. Look no further than the lies from the "scientists' on manmade global warming and climate change.

lol

Hardly.

Your full response is a classic passive-aggressive response. Denigrating someone through a post to someone else...with the 'primary' intention of having the object of your consternation read it. It's typical behavior of what a lot of people expect from, and have experienced from, self-professed 'Christians' such as yourself. A pure gold example of why many people who don't resist the message of Jesus, definitely *do* resist some of those people who claim to be His followers.

The world would be a better place if a bunch of Christians took lessons from Gunner........

George

Antlers,
First, my response was to Gus in relation to a question he asked about "early revelation" not to you. It was a short response to hm to explain how there was; how it might have happened. My comments were not directed to you nor did I ask your opinion. Notice I couched my opinion as, "I lean to" meaning, I am not positive this is correct in the context of correctly understanding the science or God's word as there is much divided opinion on the subject.

I am not asking you to agree with me nor care if you do or dont't; believe what you want. Instead of adding to the discussion in a cordial way, whether pro or CON, you pick on a point that is totally peripheral to my main point and again interrupt a thread and derail it with your little, inner Napoleonic edicts.

If you had something to add about prophecy and/or early revelation why not share it with us in a contributing way instead? I suspect because you are completely unable to add OR LEAD with anything of substance. Most reasonable folks have a sense of what they don't know; some have no idea of what they don't know but but forge ahead anyway seeking attention and trying to bolster their little egos.

The author of Proverbs 17:28, paraphrased by Abraham Lincoln and Mark Twain, wrote something you should seriously consider.

And again.

Comin' from you, who claimed that carbon-14 dating gives us "billions of earth years", that's pretty funny.

George, you have noticed the usual cast of characters that always frequent threads of this theme, and their very predictable pattern of responses. I know I have numerous times.

They must really suck at poker.

Comin' from you, who also stated that you think the earth is ~6,000 years old, that's pretty funny.

IIRC - and y'all ain't important enough for me to double check - John pretty much starts off by saying that readers of his letter will receive a "blessing". The purpose of his writing was to reveal Jesus as the "Son of God", aka "God incarnate", and to claim that He was still alive in another dimension which is commonly called Heaven and still in charge of all there is.

THAT knowledge is the "blessing", and the purpose of the book. All the end times imagery was probably intended for John's eyes only and he made a hell of a mess trying to translate it in detail.

Yes. It's 'astonishing' that people who are interested in threads of certain themes...whether it's African hunting or oilfield issues or Christian faith issues, for example...will actually frequent 'those' threads that they are interested in and have something to say about em' on a discussion forum.

Antlers has the Pharisees up in arms....... which is how it always goes.

So, you feel denigrated and don't like it. You make broad unsubstantiated statements and feel free to poke fun, ie "denigrate" others but when someone challenges you, you step back and accuse them of being one of the "self professed" group.

So, when someone disagrees with you, you bring out the condemnation. You don't address the facts of the situation at all. One might characterize that as.....?

You get angry quickly and try to step on those who challenge you.

Filled with venom? Pride maybe? Filled with something else?

TF

Nah, antlers is up in arms and out and about slinging darts at all who might have the temerity to think differently.

It's the internet guys, AND it's a shooter's chat room. We cannot agree on something as simple as how impressive a 30-06 is compared to say any other round that has lasted 110 years. How do you suppose there will be any Concord on topics with such reach as the one before us now .............

Which for clarity is about Bible prophecy, not hypocrites, blah, blah, blah.

lol

The resident 'Professional Christians' here don't like it when someone chooses critical thinking over wearing a team jersey.

There's only 1 Pharisee, the rest are simply Sadducees....

"Critical thinking?" Go back and consider you statement about why "people" resist Christianity and explain how that statement is based on critical thinking. You were given the correct answer on why "people" resist Christianity one or even two of the previous posts. You ignored both.

Those answers did not fit with your bias?????

You have not said something about the discussion. You have attempted to denigrate those who are posting something about the subject.

lol

You haven't 'challenged' anyone, at all.

Of course I have. You just didn't like it.

The Pharisees also *didn't like the things that Jesus taught, nor did they like the things that Jesus had to say*. They thought that they didn't do anything wrong, and they thought that they were real important and real clever. They thought that their opinions about religion were always right, and they became very 'proud'. They claimed that they obeyed all of God's laws. *But often they pretended to be holier than they really were*. They obeyed many unimportant rules. *But often they failed to obey God's most important rules*. And they refused to listen to Jesus. They cared more about their 'religion' than they cared about God.

It's important for others to know that the resident 'Professional Christians' here DO NOT represent all of Jesus' followers.

To the contrary, I welcome it, when I see it. Scarce stuff on the 'fire. Rote is the norm.

If you don't mind would you document where God's Word tells us,

"They thought that they didn't do anything wrong, and they thought that they were real important and real clever. They thought that their opinions about religion were always right, and they became very 'proud'. They claimed they tried to obey all of God's laws."

I have not seen this information before.

This was well worth re-posting IMHO.

Wow the wheels sure fell off this one suddenly.

This sounds as bad as Ricky & me discussing politics !

Grace & Peace to you ALL

Define for us these 'Professional Christians' if you would. I always thought to be a professional one must be financially rewarded for the endeavor.

LOL, I've still got lots of work trying to stay on the straight and narrow George, thanks for the kind words buddy.

SEEN it...? *You* EXEMPLIFY it...!

The NT is riddled with this information; but just off the top of my head I offer the gospel of Matthew chpt 23:

Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples, 2 “The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses' seat, 3 so do and observe whatever they tell you, but not the works they do. For they preach, but do not practice. 4 They tie up heavy burdens, hard to bear,[a] and lay them on people's shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to move them with their finger. 5 They do all their deeds to be seen by others. For they make their phylacteries broad and their fringes long, 6 and they love the place of honor at feasts and the best seats in the synagogues 7 and greetings in the marketplaces and being called rabbi[b] by others. 8 But you are not to be called rabbi, for you have one teacher, and you are all brothers.[c] 9 And call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven. 10 Neither be called instructors, for you have one instructor, the Christ. 11 The greatest among you shall be your servant. 12 Whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

13 “But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut the kingdom of heaven in people's faces. For you neither enter yourselves nor allow those who would enter to go in.[d] 15 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel across sea and land to make a single proselyte, and when he becomes a proselyte, you make him twice as much a child of hell[e] as yourselves.

16 “Woe to you, blind guides, who say, ‘If anyone swears by the temple, it is nothing, but if anyone swears by the gold of the temple, he is bound by his oath.’ 17 You blind fools! For which is greater, the gold or the temple that has made the gold sacred? 18 And you say, ‘If anyone swears by the altar, it is nothing, but if anyone swears by the gift that is on the altar, he is bound by his oath.’ 19 You blind men! For which is greater, the gift or the altar that makes the gift sacred? 20 So whoever swears by the altar swears by it and by everything on it. 21 And whoever swears by the temple swears by it and by him who dwells in it. 22 And whoever swears by heaven swears by the throne of God and by him who sits upon it.

23 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cumin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness. These you ought to have done, without neglecting the others. 24 You blind guides, straining out a gnat and swallowing a camel!

25 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you clean the outside of the cup and the plate, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. 26 You blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and the plate, that the outside also may be clean.

27 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs, which outwardly appear beautiful, but within are full of dead people's bones and all uncleanness. 28 So you also outwardly appear righteous to others, but within you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness.

29 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you build the tombs of the prophets and decorate the monuments of the righteous, 30 saying, ‘If we had lived in the days of our fathers, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.’ 31 Thus you witness against yourselves that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. 32 Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers. 33 You serpents, you brood of vipers, how are you to escape being sentenced to hell? 34 Therefore I send you prophets and wise men and scribes, some of whom you will kill and crucify, and some you will flog in your synagogues and persecute from town to town, 35 so that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah the son of Barachiah,[f] whom you murdered between the sanctuary and the altar. 36 Truly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.

-ESV

Not to be snide nor disrespectful but I am unsure where you have gotten your biblical interpretative methods from. The things you come up with are completely indecipherable to me much of the time.

Be that as it may, the quote above shows Christ saying what Antlers paraphrased/condensed above.

It's more simple than you might believe:
There's madness in his method.

Wow, what we have here is a failure to communicate, well or decipher anyway.

I read this and of course I agree but then I asked myself "who is he talking about?" Himself?

One of you concerned souls sent me a PM regarding what I earlier posted about the "blessing" promised in Revelation. I'll share my reply........

"I told you that the revelation of Jesus as God and the fact that He was alive IS the promised blessing.

Christ's earthly teachings are remarkable in their clarity in contrast to the rest of John's writing in Revelations. In fact, John's Gospel is so concise and clear that it hardly seems possible that the same mind wrote Revelation."

Now..... THAT'S just how I dispense with the whole "prophecy portion" of Revelation, so that it causes me no concern.

Therefore, I'm under no obligation to defend the idea.

Genuine question here... what is the reason why you are always citing some Dr or somebody when you talk about what you believe?

What is the tradition from which you've gotten your biblical education?

This is a spot-on observation which is addressed nicely in the first chapter of John's letter:

Rev 1:9 [i]I, John, your brother and partner in the tribulation and the kingdom and the patient endurance that are in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos on account of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus. 10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet 11 saying, “Write what you see in a book and send it to the seven churches, to Ephesus and to Smyrna and to Pergamum and to Thyatira and to Sardis and to Philadelphia and to Laodicea.” -ESV

John recorded the dreams that the Spirit of God gave him. Quite different from recording historical events...




I agree with you. I don't find there to be much to argue about. A buddy of mine once asked me when we were talking about this stuff whether I read all sections of the newspaper the same... sports and weather reporting, editorial, comics, classified ads, etc, to which I replied obviously "no".

He asked me if that was because I had no respect for the paper and again I replied obviously "no". Why, then, he asked, should I think I can read apocalyptic writings (Revelation) the same as historical writings (Gospel of John)? He seemed to be suggesting to me that we adjust our reading style and expectation for clarity based upon literary styles all the time why should we not for the Bible?

Bottom line take-away for me from that section of the book; Jesus has beaten sin & death and is in heaven w/ the Father from whence he shall return to set things aright.

Halleluiah what a Savior..

Sounds like you and I see a lot of things similarly.[ Do you see the 270WBY as being the perfect all-around cartridge? ]

You know, we are all overjoyed that the late Justice Scalia looked for the principles behind the 2A and interpreted it in the context of the times and culture of it's adoption. If he hadn't, we would be stuck with muskets for self defense.

But a few members don't apply the same interpretive methodology when reading the bible which, after all, WAS written by men. The level of inspiration of the writers and - more importantly - the "selectors" in the 4th century was not consistent. To believe otherwise displays an ignorance of human nature.

BTW... we have very little knowledge of the mind of God, but we have a wealth of first hand information regarding human nature. That's probably why it is said that to know God we must first know ourselves.

It sure looks to me like some posters have not been properly introduced to themselves.

The writers of the Bible were just that: writers. Inspiration was no more required of them than perspiration. God and the Holy Spirit chose what went into that Book by verse, chapter, and book. The Bible is truly the most unique and perfect Book in existence. It can, and has given rise to incredible revelation and despicable cults. All by design. It is ever living, sharper and more powerful than any weapon known, so be careful how you use it and more careful how you misuse it. I can point to translation issues in a few areas due to scribes discomfort and confusion with the Truth and how that might impact their longevity, but as a whole and for purpose, it is intact as the dead sea scrolls prove. Humanity had little to do with the Bible, other than maligning it, and failing to benefit from it's infallibility. Those who don't believe God could, can, and will, preserve His Word, don't know the One I do.

And that's all I've got to say about that.

That's simply superb!

antlers,



In other words you made it up and double down on the personal attacks. At least you are consistent.

Well.... since we are all having a final say it appears, I'll just make the observation that He must have figured the Roman Catholics needed more information since their bible is bigger.

I just learned via PM that since I don't believe the bible to be inerrant, my Christianity has been revoked.

Now you tell me that I know a different God than you know. My concept of God has served me exceedingly well for many years so I know you will understand when I don't modify it to fit another man's concept.

I've seen the cave of the apocalypse on Patmos where revelations was written. Underwhelming to say the least.

Delphi was more inspiring and probably served more value to society on the whole.

Why not?

Not to JGR, but just in general, to those "astrophysicists, geologists, chemists, physicists, and expert anthropologists" by training here, in whose opinion carbon-14 has not had any role in determining what is taken for the age of the earth in the past: IT WASN'T EVEN an issue in any of my posts until our resident expert Antlers made it one.

Of course, to that point, his profile shows so much evidence of formal training in this particular area (not that that's always necessary mind you)--but be that as it may, he was/is, I'm so sure, always resolute in proffering how all things began, when, how, and probably even gave God advice as to what to write and when to do it too...and to what he deemed inspired to mean. Heck, I'm sure he was always available for consultation on everything.

Please do some more research--even read some--on the subject at hand and more importantly, be ready to read, and digest others' opinions without immediately, reflexively spouting some ridiculous inanity. You know, just to learn a little. I know some things are nearly impossible..but try. Ok? Ok Don't.

I'm finished with this post, thread, this topic, and some of the posters here whose feet are in those cement overshoes. Life is too short to deal with the obstreperous.

God told me I didn't have to believe it.

Good enough?

Danny, aka Antlers, is welcome in my camp anytime. I doubt you and I would have a pleasant visit.

Alternative conclusion: he felt that information was so obvious it needed no proof.

If you go back a page, however, you'll see a lengthy citation of scripture which perfectly illustrates what he condensed as Christ's teaching on the Pharisees.

No, it's not, but that's fine. I was genuinely interested why you believe that. One day God will sort it all out though.

I most certainly don't agree with your opinion of what antlers posted. I cold have posted the above as well as you did, but antlers told us what the Pharisees thought.

Curdog,don't worry about it so much.
Folks have been plagued with a thing called FREE WILL.

Some just can't or won't believe it.
It is in the book.

Occasionally I mention something from Dr. Kindell because he is about the only educated person whom I know who is generally penitent. When I have showed him something from God's Word different from what he learned in college or school he has repented.



When I became a believer I spent five hours per day for months reading God's Word. What do you think happened? The folks at church started calling me arrogant because I knew where to find a verse when someone asked a question. What was really fun is when a caring person would come to me about something they saw in my life they thought was in the Bible. I could show them where they were correct and thank them and repent.

Then I discovered the New Testament on tape and listened to it so much so that I wore out three tape players and three sets of New Testament tapes. It takes only twenty-four hours to listen to the New Testament. During that time I read the Old Testament a few times and made cross references to the New Testament. When I worked in the garden I listened to the Bible. If you do that for twenty-five years you don't need anyone to tell you what it says. When I used to work and since I retired when I drive in the car I usually listen to the Bible. According to 1 John 2:27 the Holy Spirit tells us we will not have any need for someone to teach us.

Over the years I interspersed that with science books and lectures.

I am like most everyone else in the world. Almost universally we humans believe we are right and those who don't agree with us are wrong. I am not the first to discover this. In God's Word we are told, "Everyone's ways are right in his own eyes."

Over the years I have tried many churches and talked with many pastors. In fact I used to invite pastors and priest to come to my house on Saturday and preach or teach or do whatever they thought was good. It was not an adversarial gathering. They had the floor for the whole day. My wife would fix lunch for a break and we would all sit down and listen some more.

The vast majority didn't accept God's Word as the final authority. Even last Monday I spent a fun hour with a priest. Some of his thoughts are not supported by the Scripture. He agreed with that and appealed to tradition. He loaded me a book with lots of info. There is some fun stuff in it which is supported by Scripture.

I hope this answers your questions.

Where's England Dan and John Ford Coleys 'love is the answer' when we need it? bwaahahahaha!

The truth is Gene, most of us know a different God. He takes us as He finds us, so we all start out at different places with Him. I have no doubt about your faith, not that it would matter, since we all come by that differently, too. I also know we agree on a lot. Several days in a hunting camp showed that. That we don't agree in this only means we don't agree on this. If I never see you again in this world, I know I'll see you in the next. I'm pretty sure we both agree with that.

Interesting ideas brought up here that have a lot to do with the topic of the OP.

Not in the order posted, but one thing to note is the huge difference between the Roman Catholic Church (note I say the church as an institution not individual members thereof for I am not herein maligning individuals but communicating my understanding of their doctrines) and Protestants is that the former see the church as giving Scripture authority while the latter see the Scriptures as giving the Church authority (although what that authority looks like varies greatly between denominations). It stands to reason, therefore, that the authoritative cannon of the two would vary rather significantly. I am not 100% sure of this, but it seems to me that I've also been told that the Roman Catholic Church's Bible contains books that were not seen as authoritative before the schism between them & the Orthodox Church in the early part of the second millennium AD.

As to revocation of Christianity I find the thief on the cross to be a good reference in these situations; that is, what do we suppose he believed? It doesn't say, but Christ affirmed the man's place in the Kingdom of God, and I doubt the guy understood infallibility or inerrancy or whatever.

On the flip side of that Ricky begs an excellent question. Christ is quoted as asking the Pharisees what miracle would be greater... healing a man (I can't remember the deformity or ailment of the specific person in the story) or forgiving the man's sins. The Pharisees said healing, so Christ healed the man and proceeded to forgive the man's sins under the implication that if He was sufficiently powerful to do the former then He was also powerful enough to do the latter. In similar fashion I would ask... what is harder to accomplish? The salvation of sinful, fallen men or the preservation of the story of that salvation for many generations?

When I ask myself that question I personally come to the conclusion that the salvation I have no doubt exists was a much bigger task than preservation of the story. If God is powerful enough to save for Himself a people, then He certainly can be counted on to bring those people a word sufficient to communicate that salvation, at least in my mind.

Anyway, I don't think I've run across a single person in this thread that I wouldn't love to share hunting camp with. I personally find that most of the controversy we run up against here is due to the lack of personal contact over the internet. Disagreeing with and maligning some type under a somewhat anonymous screen name is a lot easier for me to do than a flesh and blood person with whom I've shared a meal and a hunting camp. Maybe its just me but I suspect it isn't.

Grace and peace y'all!

As seems to be par for the course I'm pretty thoroughly confused by your suggestion that my response didn't answer the question.

Those are excellent points, but I also consider that Christ was a unique figure and it's doubtful that His message would not have survived without an authoritative text. And... just how "authoritative" is that text? Is it not the reason behind all the different denominations of Protestants? And is not considered inadequate without Priestly interpretation by the Roman Catholics? Don't the Mormans believe that it needed an addendum, thus we have The Book of Morman.

I don't recall any instructions accorded to Jesus during His earthly mission regarding writing down accounts of it. I do believe I read something about "preaching the gospel". Sounds as if He may have figured word of mouth was the best way to spread the "Good News". Lending credibility to that idea is the fact that He had witnessed what human nature had done with the O T scriptures and He never indicated that He expected human nature to change.

Then He promised to send a Teacher, the Spirit of Truth who would instruct US in all things. Taken in context, it's clear that He meant each individual.

To sum up, I believe the bible to be useful in attaining a Spiritual way of life.

To me, it is akin to prostitution to view it the same way the Muslims view the Koran and it sure seems like that happens with some folks.

SEE......... their "god" was invented by Mohamed and died with him, so the book is all they have. Jesus is alive and well and able to communicate with His adherents directly.... even those who are illiterate.

If He doesn't "talk" to you [editorial "you", of course] maybe you've never learned to listen, and all the bible reading and memorizing in the world can't teach you.

If you were born in a predominately Muslim country you would most likely be a Muslim yourself (or dead).

curdog, please do not take this as an attack, just a thought or two. It is very dangerous to assume we can understand everything Jesus, or God Almighty thinks or was thinking...

Isaiah 55:8 New International Version (NIV)

“For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways,”
declares the Lord.


Yes, individuals are responsible for spreading the Word nowadays, with help from the Holy Spirit that lives in the hearts of every christian. The written word also helps.

Finally, since you don't believe in the inherrant accuracy of the entire Bible, how do you determine which scriptures are accurate and which one's supposedly are not? That seems dangerous.

You posted Jesus' response to the Pharisee's life style. That dos not address antler's post. I don't know how to say it another way. Antlers posted what the Pharisee were thinking. Without Scripture telling us what they were thinking we can not know what they were thinking. Scripture does not give us that info.

curdog4570,



Their god was created by the Most High during the creation week. We call him the Devil or Satan.

JGRaider posted some Scripture. I am curious if you accept
Hebrews 4:12-13 where we find,

"For the Word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart. And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are open and laid bare to the eyes of Him with Whom we have to do."

If you do, what is "the Word of God" to you?

I suppose there is a significant difference between a love for God which translates to a love for His word vs a love for His word because it validates ones need to be right. The Pharisees certainly seemed to be live they were showing reverence for God's word but failed to keep its spirit.

Of course Christ showed His love for God's word by citing it constantly. He didn't make up words about Himself extemporaneously He quoted what His Father (who He loved) had said concerning Him.

Another way to think of it is the reverence I might have for love letters sent from my wife. It isn't that I love the letters; its that they are a sign to me of my wife's love for me. Now if my kids were to spill kool aid on them and I abuse them for it I'd be sinning but that wouldn't be the letters fault it'd be mine for placing them before people.

Which if I am hearing you correctly is your beef with Scripture; you don't care for the ways that sinful people have used it as a whipping post for others. Am I correct in that understanding?

I tend to think that, just as in so many things in life, this is all about balance. Did Christ send the Spirit? Yes. I know because the Bible says so and because the Spirit says so, not sinply one or the other. Seems to me if Christ referenced God's written revelation of Himself then I ought to also. He didn't do it like Muslims do tho; He loved God's image bearers first and chastised the Pharisees for holding (supposed) love for keeping Gods law above love for people.

I read and study God's love letters to me because I love Him and want to know Him better and am confident the Spirit works with that study to bring me closer to our Lord.

Anyway good covers action here. Thanks JGR curdog Ricky George & others for keeping it going.

Ok I see I wasn't taking it as literally as that. However, there are points at which the thoughts of the Pharisees are given to us at least concerning their desire to kill the Christ.

Thanks for the response, but what was your point then? I assume you weren't defending Pharisees?

Are behaviors fair indicators of what a person is thinking? If you see a consistent pattern of behavior in a person do you think you can make at least an educated guess as to how they're thinking?

I'm still completely lost as to what in the world your point is or how it relates to the over arching themes of this thread?

Pretty sure he doesn't think that..



Whether the Bible is inherently accurate or not is irrelevant, it will not get you to God. You can only get to God thru Jesus Christ. The Bible is just a guide for the journey, I think that's what CDog is saying.

The Muslims have no living God. Their Koran is the only way to Allah. Step outside of the Koran and it's game over because their God is dead.

I would respectfully disagree on the irrelevancy idea. You cannot pick and choose the scriptures you feel are correct, and reject those you feel are not. They all are God breathed and correct, even if it conflicts with your lifestyle, or if they convict you, which is what they are supposed to do IMO.

In the end it matters not what any of us think or accept. God's word lays it all out for us as a game plan for our lives, and one day we will be judged as we stand before our maker.....


Matthew 12:36King James Version (KJV)

36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.

You'll never hear me bitch about an "attack" and anytime I post something that is my opinion, not my experience, I'll attempt to answer any questions raised by my post.

If it is important to a man's faith that the bible be without error - and it certainly seems to be for some on here - then it is their business. It should be my business that I don't require an error-free bible for my relationship with the Risen Jesus.

I only have to know and understand what He wants ME to do. It's none of my business what He thinks about anything else.

John said Jesus was the Word and that fits some other references so I just go with that definition. If you think that's wrong.......... deal with it.

You heard me right. I've done a tad of bible reading and I like some scriptures for the simple reason that they express some of my beliefs better than I can. I like this one:

"Thy word have I hid in my heart, O Lord, against the day of iniquity."

i just don't know when the so=called Xtians who walk among us are going to shift their focus to this earth and his capacity to sustain us.

right now, everyone seems to be tied to a personal AfterLife. honestly, it sounds a little selfish to me. but maybe i'm wrong?

given 7 generations ahead, have we properly set up the playing field for the late=date xtians who'll be occupying the earth and shopping at walmart, kroger, etc. etc.

i think we're missing the point entirely. but of course i could be wrong.

efw,



Jesus says the Pharisees honored God with their lips but their heart was far from Him. They loved the praise of men more than the love of God.

I am not defending the Pharisees. I am pointing out the error of antlers and the error of you defending him. There is no way for us to see what the Pharisees were doing so we can not judge what they were thinking by those actions. We have only God's Word to go by. We are to "handle accurately the Word of God."

If you were hell bent on posting something stupid you should have responded to Gus, not efw and Antlers.

[quote=efw]I suppose there is a significant difference between a love for God which translates to a love for His word vs a love for His word because it validates ones need to be right. The Pharisees certainly seemed to be live they were showing reverence for God's word but failed to keep its spirit.

Of course Christ showed His love for God's word by citing it constantly. .......................



Yes, I see and understand your post and I don't have an issue with it but there is an aspect of the heart that I consider when looking at the Pharisees. Their hearts were wrong, filled with impurity and as is says like "whitewashed tombs" filled with death and bones.

Were they showing "reverence?" I don't know, but their big problem was in the heart. I seem to see that "out of the heart" comes the man, the character and the witness. A heart that is unclean will not be very good at all in supplying service to the kingdom. A deed might look good on the outside but if not done for the Lord, it is of no mind. Good, not harmful but not impactful for the kingdom; a relatively meaningless earthly deed at best. I have done them by the boatloads.

If one's heart is filled with dead bones, I would suspect that reverence, behavior and good deeds associated with that heart are, in the end, to be found to be prideful and totally self-serving.

I suspect most Pharisees of that day may be like those of today; lovers of themselves, filled with pride etc; no matter how good they look on the outside, it is the heart that counts.

Take the proverbial cool drink of water. If offered by a Pharisee to Jesus only so the Pharisee can be seen doing the good deed then it is likely of no eternal consequence. If offered in love to quench Christ's thirst, then the deed likely has eternal significance.

We seem to have many people today who do good things and support noble causes. Are they doing these things to only make themselves feel good? To be seen by others and then hence done for one's own pride and ego?

Same idea with the widow's mite.

I am sure you get the idea, just another aspect of the heart of the Pharisee.

And Jesus Himself described pretty clearly in Matthew 23 ("God's Word") what the Pharisees were doing (how they behaved), and it's not a stretch to tell how they thought either, based upon their actions (behavior).

It's pretty clear where I was coming from when I posted to you what I did about the Pharisees. It's no different than if, for example, someone acts like they're better than everyone else, for an observer of that behavior to make the comment that "they think they're better than everyone else". Most everybody who had seen that persons behavior, or even read about it, would understand the comment that the observer made. But only a Pharisee would split hairs over it. It's disingenuous to the Nth degree.

What's in our hearts...good or bad...is eventually translated into words and deeds.

I agree full heartedly!

There is even a scripture that says this. At least I think so.

Matthew 12:33-37 Jesus speaking

"'Either make the tree good and its fruit good, or make the tree bad and its fruit bad; for the tree is known by its fruit. You brood of vipers, how can you, being evil, speak what is good? For the mouth speaks out of that which fills the heart. The good man brings out of his good treasure what is good; and the evil man brings out of his evil treasure what is evil. But I tell you that every careless word that people speak, they shall give an accounting for it in the day of judgment. For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.'"

How is this not another way of saying what they thought????

It may not be depending upon how one views or understands who we are and how we are made and how we function.

There is the body and there is the soul or our mind. There is also the presence or absence of the Spirit deep within us. I see man as the three part being. The soul or mind, being different from our spirit.

More simply put, the spirit is the driving force of God within us and it manifests itself via our soul; it's thoughts,words, deeds and acts.

How many times have each us had some sort of sudden "understanding" or "revelation" about God? Seems to me that is the Spirit communicating to our spirit and then manifesting in our mind.

To each his own here I think.


ie, the Pharisees were dead in their spirit and did not have the driving force of God to urge their mind. They could still think and reason but were motivated in their flesh.

I am of the opinion that Man is a spiritual entity with a religious instinct. The humanistic Atheist working on his Doctorate is fulfilling his religious instinct just as surely as the Eskimo carving a totem pole.

Religiosity is just one way - and not the preferred way - our spirituality finds expression in the physical world.

It appears that the Pharisees practiced their religion to the detriment of their spirituality.

Their modern day counterparts can be found in great number sitting in a pew, singing in a choir, or preaching from a pulpit on any Sunday morning in any American town.

So where do you draw the line on what is correct, and what is in error?

You are correct in this. However, the Pharisees are also found in great numbers sitting in boats or watching the footballs games on Sunday morning. Great numbers of them.

All secure in their own hearts that they are ok with God and that they can worship God “in their own way.”

They don’t need the church, already have enough “bible knowledge” and they happily forsake the assembling of themselves together as they do not want to be offended by “hypocrites.”

They judge themselves and find that they are “ok with God.” They especially feel good about themselves when they judge others to be “Pharisees.”

Seriously....... does YOUR conscience not work? That's a smartass answer, but I used it for emphasis.

Most of us will make it into Heaven by backing away from Hell, but doing the right thing to avoid guilty feelings can, over time, translate into doing the right thing out of habit.

Of course, that can't happen without God's help and I'm ever mindful of that.

"The Practice of the Presence of God" is an old, but useful, little book that aided me to some small degree in developing those "thought habits".

It is. Jesus knew their thoughts, not men.

Thank you. I still have to wait on Ringman's verdict, of course.

I have stuff to do [comfort the afflicted, heal the lame, restore sight to the blind and such] so I'll bow out for awhile.

Thanks to all for the conversation.

First verse in Genesis to the last in Revelation. That keeps it simple for me. If I come across something I have a problem with I move on, believing it's either not for me, or not for me now.

There's a proverb that says, "it's to the Glory of God to conceal a matter, and to the glory of kings to search the matter out". The Bible is pretty straightforward when it comes to the salvation message. So that which is the most important is rather moot in regards to hidden meaning. Those things that might show us more about this amazing God can sometimes be a problem. Particularly if we are reading through our filters. We do see through the glass darkly. But the number of times I have went past a verse many times and another time it almost jumps off the page at me in a unique revelation, shows me this is a living book and there is a Holy Spirit who can lead and guide us to all the Truth to be found that we need for our purposes. That is few for some and many for others. Not only does God take us where he finds us but also and often will take us where we want to go with Him. Many of the pastors and/or those involved with mission work among us may be able to attest to the wild ride that can be.

If you say so...



I agree with that like you did before you didn't but whatever.

Your conversation reminds me of a guy at work. He kept asking me questions trying to catch me in something. Finally I asked him, "Are you trying to catch me in something like the Pharisees did with Jesus in the lasts two verses of Luke 11?"
Luke 11:53-54
"When He left there, the scribes and the Pharisees began to be very hostile and to question Him closely on many subjects, plotting against Him to catch Him in something He might say."

If you don't mind, would you post were I changed my mind, please? The specific phrase I quoted I agree with.

Here's the problem with those who either don't know what God's Word says or don't believe it. God's Word says, well I'll let you read it.

1 Corinthians 2:11
"For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so the thoughts of God no one knows except the Spirit of God."

I don't consider you important enough to try and catch you in something. You're not Jesus. Nor am I a Pharisee.

As a matter of fact I have been trying to give you the benefit of the doubt but your accusation suggests my initial inclination and what many here already knew is correct.

You're obtuse.

Yes,to put it bluntly!

Thanks DW that's more like what I was aiming for.

Found the easiest way to avoid migraine headaches was to put certain folks on ignore. That way I don't get sucked in to silly exchanges.

Dusting off your sandals, are you Keith?

You sure fooled me.

Sandals for the next few weeks and then snow packs for the next ten months.

Thanks I have taken your advice!

Ringman and TF49 go to such lengths to avoid admitting a mistake that they make being right of no value.

So Curdog, I'm guessing that I posted something that got under your skin. You are expressing your angst here with me.

I would think it was this post that rankled you:


"You are correct in this. However, the Pharisees are also found in great numbers sitting in boats or watching the football games on Sunday morning. Great numbers of them.

All secure in their own hearts that they are ok with God and that they can worship God “in their own way.”

They don’t need the church, already have enough “bible knowledge” and they happily forsake the assembling of themselves together as they do not want to be offended by “hypocrites.”

They judge themselves and find that they are “ok with God.” They especially feel good about themselves when they judge others to be “Pharisees.”

It may be frustrating to you when you are forced to consider that I am the only person on the planet with the authority to state this:

YOUR GUESSER IS BROKE.

You seem to be under the false impression that you are important enough to cause ANYONE "angst".

In the earliest days of this website,even before the ill-fated "Christ at the Campfire" forum, we had discussions on Spiritual and religious topics. The threads were just as likely to be started by unbelievers as believers. The split in opinions was along that line.

Now, with members like you and Ringman, the splits are among believers and the unbelievers just smile.

Another observation I am qualified to make is that MY posts, and similar posts which focused on Spiritual rather than religious points of view were seldom ridiculed by the unbelievers.

Your vain attempts to validate the bible to unbelievers by quoting the bible - a stupid exercise if ever there was one - is the main reason. I learned THAT from reading THEIR posts.

Nope, your dog barks too loud and your angst is clear from your last post.

You are the one that decided to take a poke at Ringman and I.

My guesser is not broke and you do indeed take some sort of ill pleasure in being critical of others. Makes you feel superior, kinda like you are the authority?

My posts have clearly gotten under your skin.

curdog4570,



That's because there is not much difference between your belief and theirs. You and they use the same final authority: Your opinions.

Pointing at you CurDog...

This thread has established the fact that the long sought, exalted, seat at Ringman's right hand is no longer up for grabs. TF 49 s firmly ensconced there.

Who is Ringman?

Conjure up an image of C.S. Lewis, the great Christian Apologist.

You got that?

Now, conjure up an imaginary polar opposite.

That's Ringman.

Made me smile!

TF