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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Aug 2003
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Daddy Rabbit READ the chart. Numbers don't lie. RG is ONE of the best, but there are many! Correct load development for any rifle is another factor.I am very pleased with my RG rifle after I developed a load for it and we settled our bump in the road and moved on. Also I would be specific to which people on this list squatt or are candy asses. If you think we fit that category here in rural central Texas bring your ass down here and the matter can be further discussed. In all probability, that chart simply reflects how "well known" the smith is. Geroge Gardner shoots the rifles his shop builds in competition...great for name recognition. So a guy with a several year backlog like RG (ignore the fact that this somehow precludes him from using the phone or email) isn't well known and wouldn't be well known to people shopping for a rifle? How does that work exactly? So unknown you have to wait 30 months to get your product? Being that well unknown must mean is's a 4-6 year wait for something from GAP then - right?
Me
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The guys in here constantly complaining probably still squat to take a pizz.I hear you drone on and on about how awful Robert is but alas, not a damn peep with regards to where your candy asses has sent your rifles to. Target pics? Some people just like to rattle to hear their selves talk. Here's the thing, I have had custom builds from Smiths from all over for me for benchrest, tactical, F-class, etc etc. I was Always chasing the carrot. To date, NONE can build a stick to shoot w/what Robert builds. Let me say it again, NONE!!!! Here's the thing about burning your bridges, when you're on the outside looking in it just plain sucks watching the accuracy party carry on without you. EVERY Biz has growing pains and Roberts is no different. Personally, I will always be a loyal Gradous rifle owner and end user. Let me know how those .5 to 3/4 '' at best MOA groups are working out for ya. You guys don't deserve a Gradous build but I suspect you'll get exactly what you deserve in the end though. ![[Linked Image]](http://2poqx8tjzgi65olp24je4x4n.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/custom-rifle-gunsmiths1.png) Yep - no one can hang with him. No dog in this fight. He hasn't done any work for me. I don't understand the chart. Top 50 shooters of what? I know a lot of National Champions in different shooting disciplines and none of them use any listed on this charts. Flesh this out a little please.
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Butch,
I think they are talking about tactical rifle shoots in that chart....a whole different crowd than the benchrest guys you are familiar with....I didnt think they needed 1/4 inch rifles in those shoots although to have a rifle that shoots that is great....
I think the one new poster here might not understand the benchrest crowd has been shooting under a 1/4 inch and then some for years...
And their are probably many sporter class rifles that may shoot 1/4 or better but I dont think most guys are capable of shooting that with an 8 pound rifle on an everyday basis including me
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Gene great comment. For a post that started long ago about lack of communication it seems to have turned to rifle accuracy of which I think the guy shooting the "most accurate" rifle part of the equation has been totally forgotten.
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Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 46,253 Likes: 2
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 46,253 Likes: 2 |
Not sad, but funny as fu-k!  If your daddy calls you and you dont answer, you're gonna get a knot slapped on your head. If you call your dog and he doesn't come, he will be disciplined. If a man has thousands of dollars of my money and parts and wont answer the phone, he's gonna get knots on his head for my trouble!
It's simply about respect! The turd polishers in this thread can spin it any way they choose. Exactly! I am surprised some of the people Gradous put the screw on haven't been down to discuss things with him. Me too.
Trump Won!
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Joined: Jul 2003
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So a guy with a several year backlog like RG (ignore the fact that this somehow precludes him from using the phone or email) isn't well known and wouldn't be well known to people shopping for a rifle?
How does that work exactly?
So unknown you have to wait 30 months to get your product?
Being that well unknown must mean is's a 4-6 year wait for something from GAP then - right?
Since you seem to have blinders on...I'll spell it out for you...I was only commenting on the chart...not the wait times. If that sinks in, you'll see that the rest of your post is off the mark. At least with me.
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The guys in here constantly complaining probably still squat to take a pizz.I hear you drone on and on about how awful Robert is but alas, not a damn peep with regards to where your candy asses has sent your rifles to. Target pics? Some people just like to rattle to hear their selves talk. Here's the thing, I have had custom builds from Smiths from all over for me for benchrest, tactical, F-class, etc etc. I was Always chasing the carrot. To date, NONE can build a stick to shoot w/what Robert builds. Let me say it again, NONE!!!! Here's the thing about burning your bridges, when you're on the outside looking in it just plain sucks watching the accuracy party carry on without you. EVERY Biz has growing pains and Roberts is no different. Personally, I will always be a loyal Gradous rifle owner and end user. Let me know how those .5 to 3/4 '' at best MOA groups are working out for ya. You guys don't deserve a Gradous build but I suspect you'll get exactly what you deserve in the end though. Yep - no one can hang with him. No dog in this fight. He hasn't done any work for me. I don't understand the chart. Top 50 shooters of what? I know a lot of National Champions in different shooting disciplines and none of them use any listed on this charts. Flesh this out a little please. Butch, you have a lot of experience in rifle building, would you PM me a recommendation or two for a good honest gunsmith pls? Not looking for a fly weight builder for this one but a sendero type. Thanks
Last edited by BurninDupont; 09/04/16.
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I’ve been toying with the idea of selling a 2-year-old Gradous-built .280AI for a couple of months so I did a search to determine what other Gradous rifles might be for sale, and doing so I discovered this thread.
I feel like I need to share some of what I know. Robert does not need me to defend him – so I won’t. I will limit my comments to my experiences having him build 2 rifles for me, both of which shoot lights out. I had the good fortune of being in his shop at the time he built my rifles. While I did not actually help, I stood alongside and watched him and he explained to me every step in the process and why he did what he was doing and the benefit of taking the extra steps. I learned more about accurate riles and precision shooting in my short time with him in all the years previous. I found him to be one of the most genuine, polite, respectful, and kind gentlemen I’ve ever had the privilege of meeting. The man has forgot more about precision and what it takes to build an accurate rifle than the collective wisdom in this thread. Over the two separate weekends that I spent at his shop, more than a few gunsmiths called for his advice. These were men who are quite well thought of in the business of gun building.
Wait times and good communication are one side of the business, no question about that. The other side is highly accurate and well-built rifles. Robert Gradous has nothing to prove to anyone in that aspect. For my money, when it comes to really accurate, well-built rifles, talk is over-rated
Yawn. It doesn't take a rocket surgeon to build an accurate rifle. Lots of guys that nobody here have ever heard of can build same. It is unethical to accept work that you have no intention of beginning for years. It is unethical to accept payment for work that you have no intention of beginning for years. It is unethical to refuse to return calls/rifles & parts/money for work that you haven't started after you have ignored the customer for years. It is unethical to accept work based on you performing the build, hold customers gun/parts/money for years then tell everybody its all good now - you've got a new shop w/ CNC equipment and gunsmiths you never agreed to will be performing the build (theoretically) on your rifle. Highly unscrupulous business practices. He'll never get any business from me. David Have you had him build a rifle? Have you ever spoken with the man? Accurate is one thing. Gradous accurate is another. Ever heard of law of diminishing returns? It requires a lot of additional attention to detail to gain the last nth degree of performance. If you have a field gun that can agg .250" then you understand but I bet a ham sandwich you don't. The LRI in my avatar makes 1/4" easy...and it took a weekend to turn around.
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When building a rifle, if one starts with a decent action, adds a quality barrel, stock, ensures bedding is good, and has a good trigger and scope, the shooter must remember, the loads and driver all add up in the equation. A good smith is also integral, and there are many good ones. Some not so good.
Like medicine and other professions, some folks have great "Clinical skill" and knowledge, and may or may not have a good "bedside manner" - likewise some may have better or worse business skills. Lastly, we are all human and not perfect.
Find someone you like, trust, and has a reputation of doing quality work. Unless you are shooting bonafide competition for score, milking the last few thousands of accuracy can tax one's wallet, the gunsmith, and the owners shooting and handloading skill. Each person must decide what their needs are and proceed accordingly. Not all gunsmiths are equal in skill, personality, and pricing. But there are MANY who will make an owner happy.
Wish all those building projects much fun and success in your projects. It often requires patience of varying lead times. How long is a project worth waiting is up to the shooter. It's nice when you can get one done in days, weeks, or a few months. I've often spent upwards of a year just getting all my parts together.....so that burns up one's patience to a degree.
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When building a rifle, if one starts with a decent action, adds a quality barrel, stock, ensures bedding is good, and has a good trigger and scope, the shooter must remember, the loads and driver all add up in the equation. A good smith is also integral, and there are many good ones. Some not so good.
Like medicine and other professions, some folks have great "Clinical skill" and knowledge, and may or may not have a good "bedside manner" - likewise some may have better or worse business skills. Lastly, we are all human and not perfect.
Find someone you like, trust, and has a reputation of doing quality work. Unless you are shooting bonafide competition for score, milking the last few thousands of accuracy can tax one's wallet, the gunsmith, and the owners shooting and handloading skill. Each person must decide what their needs are and proceed accordingly. Not all gunsmiths are equal in skill, personality, and pricing. But there are MANY who will make an owner happy.
Wish all those building projects much fun and success in your projects. It often requires patience of varying lead times. How long is a project worth waiting is up to the shooter. It's nice when you can get one done in days, weeks, or a few months. I've often spent upwards of a year just getting all my parts together.....so that burns up one's patience to a degree.
WTF Cliff? Stop smoking cheap pot.
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I've never used the guy for smith work, but I'm a fairly patient man when it comes to other people. I could likely forgive some legitimate delays to get what I want, just the way I want it. But I'd not put up with months of no contact at all. Dodging customers for long periods of time when you already have their parts and money is not excusable, regardless of the quality of the work product.
Now with even more aplomb
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A trick I used to get a hold of a 'smith that wouldn't answer my calls was to setup a Google voice number in his city or other locale. I figured he was dodging my calls but wasn't dodging new business. If true, this was going to be tough for him as he would potentially be dodging future business as I rotated phone numbers. VOIP has its privileges.
The guy picked right up and proceeded to (while stuttering) tell me he lost pieces to my parts and was trying to source new ones. Once I told him the manufacturer was a different manufacturer and not the one he sourcing, things were quickly in motion and my items were sent to me (fixed).
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Campfire Ranger
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I've never used the guy for smith work, but I'm a fairly patient man when it comes to other people. I could likely forgive some legitimate delays to get what I want, just the way I want it. But I'd not put up with months of no contact at all. Dodging customers for long periods of time when you already have their parts and money is not excusable, regardless of the quality of the work product. Such a simple thing. Here it is. Those that are defending these actions are quite telling... If I pulled this stunt with my customers, they'd have my ass. I'd have been beating on his door a year ago....
- Greg
Success is found at the intersection of planning, hard work, and stubbornness.
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I've never used the guy for smith work, but I'm a fairly patient man when it comes to other people. I could likely forgive some legitimate delays to get what I want, just the way I want it. But I'd not put up with months of no contact at all. Dodging customers for long periods of time when you already have their parts and money is not excusable, regardless of the quality of the work product. Such a simple thing. Here it is. Those that are defending these actions are quite telling... If I pulled this stunt with my customers, they'd have my ass. I'd have been beating on his door a year ago.... There's been a couple guys in his drive way waiting for him when he came home because he would not answer their phone calls...
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Campfire Ranger
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Joined: Dec 2002
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I've never used the guy for smith work, but I'm a fairly patient man when it comes to other people. I could likely forgive some legitimate delays to get what I want, just the way I want it. But I'd not put up with months of no contact at all. Dodging customers for long periods of time when you already have their parts and money is not excusable, regardless of the quality of the work product. Such a simple thing. Here it is. Those that are defending these actions are quite telling... If I pulled this stunt with my customers, they'd have my ass. I'd have been beating on his door a year ago.... There's been a couple guys in his drive way waiting for him when he came home because he would not answer their phone calls... Did they have any luck getting their money or stuff back?
Member: Clan of the Turdlike People.
Courage is Fear that has said its Prayers
�If we ever forget that we are one nation under God, then we will be a nation gone under.� Ronald Reagan.
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You would think that if in deed the whole shop was overhauled that they might update their web page.
Writing here is Prohibited by the authorities.
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Joined: Mar 2002
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Campfire Outfitter
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I've never used the guy for smith work, but I'm a fairly patient man when it comes to other people. I could likely forgive some legitimate delays to get what I want, just the way I want it. But I'd not put up with months of no contact at all. Dodging customers for long periods of time when you already have their parts and money is not excusable, regardless of the quality of the work product. Such a simple thing. Here it is. Those that are defending these actions are quite telling... If I pulled this stunt with my customers, they'd have my ass. I'd have been beating on his door a year ago.... There's been a couple guys in his drive way waiting for him when he came home because he would not answer their phone calls... Did they have any luck getting their money or stuff back? Yes.....
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I am glad they were able to recover from hum.
Member: Clan of the Turdlike People.
Courage is Fear that has said its Prayers
�If we ever forget that we are one nation under God, then we will be a nation gone under.� Ronald Reagan.
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Campfire Ranger
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[/quote]
WTF Cliff? Stop smoking cheap pot. [/quote]
Funny, but I have never smoked it. Fact.
Stoney, I believe you misunderstood me. To Clarify my original position:
I was in NO WAY Condoning the actions of RG, Nor suggesting anyone do business with him or use Any Gunsmith who is not professional in how they treat their customers. It is obvious what's happened with RG and his customers is 100% UNACCEPTABLE. Very unfortunate for the customers who put their trust, faith, dollars, and parts in his hands.
On the contrary, there are MANY Good Gunsmiths Other than RG, who will build a good product, at a good price, and treat customers as they deserve, in a professional, respectful, and timely manner. Those other gunsmith's all have varying lead times that can be honestly estimated and communicated up front and they will honor said commitments or pro-actively communicate any delays due to unforeseen events.
So, for the record, I was never endorsing RG, or excusing his actions, Not in the least. I WAS pointing out, that in the process of building a custom rifle, it is often a time consuming process. That was exclusive of RG.
I hope that clarifies my original position.
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