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It's plain you have done your own studying and drawn your own conclusions.
I think that is good.
Never holler whoa or look back in a tight place
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Campfire Ranger
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I believe to ignore the most basic laws laid down by God through Moses, and proclaim those laws no longer apply because Christ somehow amended them, is to say Christ is a God, but not the God of Abraham. Are you sacrificing many bulls and sheep and goats and birds to make atonement these days...? i don't believe not sacrificing them anymore has saved one's animals life to date. and apparently neither the jews or the muslim's received the memo. after the majority of us signed on to the benefits of vicarious salvation, the traditions did shift. no longer is there riverlets of blood running down the gutters in the temples like they once were. and besides, what possible good could sacrificing a goat to YHWH do? Well, when the Priest stepped out later and ate of the burned flesh, it kept his belly full.
But today, the Priest would rather have a pocket full of cash money and he will purchase his own meals. yes, indeed, in both cases. i mean they had tons of dead animals after a vicarious sacrifice was carried out. no sense in wasting such valuable protein, what not allow the Levites (priests, cohen) to dispose of the after remains? it's a practical answer, all the way around. i mean the blood of the sacrifice did finally end up flowing from the altar in the temple to the ground outside the temple bldg. nowadays, green dollars can substitute for dead animals. jet planes, mansions, cadillacs, etc. etc., it's all allowed under the law, is it not?
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Campfire Ranger
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Rich, we have discussed this a bit before.
I believe the early Jewish priests were if nothing else gifted statisticians. They recognized the source of many diseases and health issues not common knowledge among the pagan tribes of the period.
Thus they passed down laws concerning the eating of unclean flesh, fish and fowl. They wrote rules regarding cleanliness and washing. The rite of circumcision alleviated many health issues in the tribe. And the Sabbath helped to prevent the selfish master of slaves/servants from working those servants into an early grave.
But soon after Christ's death, the church became more interested in lateral expansion than in the health of its members. And the teachings of the church changed to accommodate that expansion.
We have a population here which will not accept the idea of a male God. For them all good things come from the Mother. They can only believe in a goddess.....so we give them the Madonna.
We have a vast population here we wish to convert. But they worship on Sunday and we can not teach them the proper day is Saturday......... No problem, we are the priesthood. We can change the Sabbath to whatever day we wish.
Here is a population so destitute of water that none may be spared for washing........ The laws of cleanliness are not really THAT important. Do away with them and embrace these people.
And these poor folk subsist on unclean foods, as they have not the means to husband beef and lamb, or to catch the desirable fish of the sea......Forget those silly rules. Their population is growing, even if they have a short life expectancy. They live long enough to procreate.
This was all done to enlarge the Christian Empire and increase the tithing population. God's Law and salvation had nothing to do with it. I will answer this with your earlier sentence. "I believe the devout Christian should understand the basic foundations of his religion and recognize when his chosen belief system departs from that." Idaho_Shooter You don't accept the New Testament to your own peril.
"Only Christ is the fullness of God's revelation."
Everyday Hunter
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Campfire Ranger
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Redistribution... in its earliest form.
Never holler whoa or look back in a tight place
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Campfire Ranger
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yeah, pretty much. the wolf clans/tribes/packs have been tracking the great herds of deer, buffalo, elk, & reindeer nearly from the beginning.
no sense in the priesthood of the ancient hebrews in not having a sustainable form of biological existence.
it was oh so simple. the local farmers & others made a personal sacrifce of an important animal to the mighty god YHWH. but since he wasn't physically present (but he might have been present in spirit?), they depended upon the Levites to act as the middle men. they would actually do the work for YHWH, once the sacrifice was offered up by the laymen/commoners/farmers/herders.
for that svc to YHWH, he would arrange or allow a cost of administration to be levied. part of it would be the spoils of the animals after the blood was sacrificed, then allowed to run down the blood-gutter to the ground outside the Temple. some say on a big sacrifice day, the ground was thick or inundated with the blood of the sacrifices.
then the corpses has to be dealt with. it was quite the task, requiring much effort in the plng and admin by the cohen. in return, they'd willing schedule another sacrificial day in the future, that was mutally acceptable to all involved including YHWH.
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Campfire Tracker
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The legs on this post amaze me. I think it's great.
I do not entertain hypotheticals. The world itself is vexing enough. -- Col. Stonehill
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Campfire Tracker
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I do not entertain hypotheticals. The world itself is vexing enough. -- Col. Stonehill
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Campfire Ranger
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What sort of mess would we be in today if every twelveth man was a free-loading priest?
Whoa...... we just replaced them with bureaucrats.
Never mind.
Never holler whoa or look back in a tight place
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Campfire Ranger
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Preisthood......politicians.......is there a difference?
Well, the Preisthood was limited by law to 10% plus fines.
How prosperous would our economy be if local, state, and federal gov't combined had to subsist on 10% plus free will offerings?
People who choose to brew up their own storms bitch loudest about the rain.
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Campfire Ranger
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You don't accept the New Testament to your own peril.
The training I received did not ignore the NT. Far from it. I was taught that all salvation is through the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ. I was taught that one must repent of his sins and accept that salvation then go forth and sin no more. But I was also warned of the danger associated with following false teachings. I was warned that those who made the mistake of following false prophets or the anti-Christ would be eternally damned. No matter how pure the motives of those followers. There be some scary schitt in Revelation.! What I fail to see is, how can it be a problem for one to keep the comandments as I previously mentioned? Where is the harm of keeping the Saturday Sabbath? How can it be bad to abstain from unclean foods? If your church is filled with graven images, it might be worthwhile to consider another?
People who choose to brew up their own storms bitch loudest about the rain.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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For Christians the Old Testament instructions were "abolished having been nailed to the cross."
Yep, God is so perfect and all knowing, that his original instructions were "abolished".  [/quote] Nope, your statement is based on a false assumption rooted in ignorance. God didn't make a set of rules on what was necessary to be saved and then change his mind about the rules. God made a set of rules on what is necessary to be saved so you would see that the rules were so strict you couldn't keep them. Then he came to earth as a man and kept all them himself so the only thing you would have to do to be saved is trust in him, that he kept all the rules for you. [/quote] No. The original set was written by bronze age men. Their descendants got tire of killing their livestock for no reason, so they made up a new story "abolishing the sacrificial laws" so they no longer had to kill something every time the priests wanted to eat. The New Testament was a result of simple economics.
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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For Christians the Old Testament instructions were "abolished having been nailed to the cross." Including the Ten Commandments? If the other 603 were eliminated, why would there be a case for special pleading for these 10(and which version of these 10)? The ten Commandments are the ones I am referring to. They were established to lead us to Christ. Yea, but there are two version of them, Exodus 20:1–17, and Deuteronomy 5:4–21
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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AS posted: Yep, God is so perfect and all knowing, that his original instructions were "abolished". [s][/s] Another smart ass comment from someone who knows not whereof he speaks. In the past, I explained the grouping of OT laws into civil, ceremonial and moral laws. My children understand this but you either do not or turn a blind eye to it as is your desire. I can explain it to children and they understand. I have explained it to you but I cannot understand it for you. Even if you did, you could not resist making your smart ass remarks as you see them as reinforcing your mistaken sense of intellectual superiority.[/quote] That's because you have taught your children Faith, and not critical thinking.
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; Yet every Catholic church is filled with statuary. Even the most devout kneel before these graven images and pray. I know many extremely devout individuals who pray not to God but to the Blessed Mary, or their favorite Saint. These people can never repent these actions, as they are not recognized as sin. Yet they are directly contrary to the the most basic of God's earliest teaching. And Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: Christ kept the Sabbath on Saturday, as did all his apostles. The Christian Church as a whole observed the Saturday Sabbath for centuries until it was changed to Sunday by man, not by God, not by Christ, during the rule of Constantine. Sunday sabbath was from the cult of Mithraism, and adopted by the Christian church so they could more easily encompass those who already followed the official church of Rome. Keeping of the seventh day is commanded by God. How can ignoring this not be a sin of the most egregious nature. And again, how can it be repented as long as the individual does not recognize it is a sin? Is it any wonder that most of the modern Christian Church teaches that the Old Testament is to be forgotten and ignored. To do otherwise would be to admit the failings of the very foundations of their teachings. Am I to conclude then that you believe all OT and NT commandments must be obeyed to achieve salvation? Matthew: 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Thanks, RHC.
Now, I wonder who would consider loving their neighbor as works.
He says His desciples love one another. Evidently that is a requirement above just beliving in Christ as savior.
I have often heard unbelievers say that believers fear the thought of death with its percieved finality and dreamed up belief as a crutch. Its amazing how many writers of the different books had the same type of dream, many of which were dreamed up centuries apart.
I have never heard a believer claim an unbeliever may be so afraid of where they may go in the hereafter they use the lack of proof of God as a crutch to keep them from fearing death.
So, do they not accept that they have a spirit? They are only flesh and bone and bone with life? Are they no more than a dog who has no concept of right or wrong and can do nothing other than what its genetic code directs it to do? I can't speak to all the reasons people refuse Christ. I think it mostly boils down to the god of this world(Satan) having blinded them to believe lies.At the same time it seems pride is a major factor as to why it was possible for Satan to blind them. I don't see loving people as a requirement,just as something that happens because you love Jesus. Yea, it is kind of a requirement: Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. Of course by "thy Neighbor" he meant other Jews, because it was still acceptable to enslave other peoples, and, according to the NT, Jesus even ordered the slaves the obey their masters, especially the cruel ones.
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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I believe to ignore the most basic laws laid down by God through Moses, and proclaim those laws no longer apply because Christ somehow amended them, is to say Christ is a God, but not the God of Abraham. Are you sacrificing many bulls and sheep and goats and birds to make atonement these days...? Let me paraphrase The Book of Leviticus. Kill something. Sprinkle yourself in blood. Dance around. Repeat.
Last edited by antelope_sniper; 09/24/16.
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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Idaho_Shooter,
You sound like a Seventh Day Adventist. If so you belong to an organization that at least used to say Jesus is Michael the Arc angel.
As far as "unclean" foods. There is no such thing. Consider what Jesus says recorded in Mark 7:18-19,
"And He said to them, 'Are you so lacking in understanding also? Do you not understand that whatever goes into the man from outside cannot defile him, because it does not go into his heart, but into his stomach, and [g]is eliminated?' (Thus He declared all foods clean.)"
There is no harm in worshiping on the Sabbath. But there is a problem with "keeping the Sabbath." We find in James 2:10,
"For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all."
"Only Christ is the fullness of God's revelation."
Everyday Hunter
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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and besides, what possible good could sacrificing a goat to YHWH do? It does a lot of good if you are the holy man that gets to eat the goat someone else had to kill at your temple....at least is does if you are the holy man.
Last edited by antelope_sniper; 09/24/16.
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Thanks, RHC.
Now, I wonder who would consider loving their neighbor as works.
He says His desciples love one another. Evidently that is a requirement above just beliving in Christ as savior.
I have often heard unbelievers say that believers fear the thought of death with its percieved finality and dreamed up belief as a crutch. Its amazing how many writers of the different books had the same type of dream, many of which were dreamed up centuries apart.
I have never heard a believer claim an unbeliever may be so afraid of where they may go in the hereafter they use the lack of proof of God as a crutch to keep them from fearing death.
So, do they not accept that they have a spirit? They are only flesh and bone and bone with life? Are they no more than a dog who has no concept of right or wrong and can do nothing other than what its genetic code directs it to do? I can't speak to all the reasons people refuse Christ. I think it mostly boils down to the god of this world(Satan) having blinded them to believe lies.At the same time it seems pride is a major factor as to why it was possible for Satan to blind them. I don't see loving people as a requirement,just as something that happens because you love Jesus. Maybe God didnt give proof because He didnt want people like Hitler in Heaven. Ha. Hitler was Catholic.
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Redistribution... in its earliest form. Give me food, or you burn forever. The Best Scam EVER!!!
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
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