The Saudi religious police would like to talk to you.


Saudi Arabia sentences man to 10 years in jail and 2,000 lashes for tweeting he was atheist
the-sun.png
Published August 31, 2016

A court in Saudi Arabia has sentenced a man to ten years in prison and 2,000 lashes for expressing his atheism on Twitter.

The 28-year-old reportedly refused to repent, insisting what he wrote reflected his beliefs and that he had the right to express them.

The hardline Islamic state’s religious police in charge of monitoring social networks found more than 600 tweets denying the existence of God, ridiculing Koranic verses, accusing all prophets of lies and saying their teaching fuelled hostilities.

In 2014 the late King Abdullah issued a string of royal decrees aimed at clamping down on all forms of political dissent and protests that could “harm public order”.

Preview of what the US would look like if the religious right ever got the power they seek...

The Christian right would only want to be left to their own.

As in "mind your own business"?
Where have we heard that before.

The "christian right" is as oppressive as the Saudis in many ways, but they won't admit it to themselves.

BS.

No, it's really not.
They would be if they could get away with it, but they can't.

I am pretty far right, in fact I am a far enough right Constitutionalist to believe Rush is a rabid liberal, and I am a Christian. I just want to be left alone to believe in what I believe. I have no desire to try to convert anyone who does not ask me questions about my faith. Many here have sat around a campfire with me and can testify to that statement.

I am pretty far right, in fact I am a far enough right Constitutionalist to believe Rush is a rabid liberal, and I am a Christian. I just want to be left alone to believe in what I believe. I have no desire to try to convert anyone who does not ask me questions about my faith. Many here have sat around a campfire with me and can testify to that statement.

I am pretty far right, in fact I am a far enough right Constitutionalist to believe Rush is a rabid liberal, and I am a Christian. I just want to be left alone to believe in what I believe. I have no desire to try to convert anyone who does not ask me questions about my faith. Many here have sat around a campfire with me and can testify to that statement.

Can there be any doubt that religion causes wars? No thread with religion in it stays civil, even here on the 'Fire.

Can there be any doubt that religion causes wars? No thread with religion in it stays civil, even here on the 'Fire.

While I agree with you about religion and wars the fire is hardly a reliable barometer.....

You could post a pic of a box of puppies on the "campfire" and someone would eventually come along and find something about it to chitmouth and argue about....

More "christians" especially some on the 'Fire should take heed to these two sentences.

BS.

Apparently many here do, but I agree than some may not.

Can there be any doubt that religion causes wars? No thread with religion in it stays civil, even here on the 'Fire.

As in "mind your own business"?
Where have we heard that before.

The "christian right" is as oppressive as the Saudis in many ways, but they won't admit it to themselves.

While I agree with you about religion and wars the fire is hardly a reliable barometer.....

You could post a pic of a box of puppies on the "campfire" and someone would eventually come along and find something about it to chitmouth and argue about....

Preview of what the US would look like if the religious right ever got the power they seek...


On another note, where are the cries against radical Islam vis-a-vis Saudi Arabia, our 'allies''..

I guess you haven't read American History. It was founded by a bunch of "religious right guys. The vast majority of early colleges were founded as Christian colleges to further the preaching of the Gospel.

No, you haven't read American history. Put down the Barton and D'souza and slowly back away...

Prior to becoming 'America', (the nation under the constitution), there was rampant discrimination by the religious, even against other 'christians' (i am forever amused by the irony that baptist used to be persecuted by other Christians).

So when Scott and others say they just want to be able to believe as they please without aggressively proselytizing others, I say, bravo.

More "christians" especially some on the 'Fire should take heed to these two sentences.

The Christian right would only want to be left to their own.

Scott, absolutely no disrespect intended. But knowledge of the inquisition would lead most free thinking people to another conclusion.

I just want to be left alone to believe in what I believe. I have no desire to try to convert anyone who does not ask me questions about my faith.

I just want to be left alone to believe in what I believe. I have no desire to try to convert anyone who does not ask me questions about my faith.

If that were true you'd have never started this thread.

I'm Southern Baptist Christian who has no doubts about my salvation. But I'm embarrassed and ashamed of the behavior of way too many of my fellow Christians. As a group I find them far more dishonest than athiests. But to be fair, I believe you and many others have good intentions. The problem is that you've been influenced by corrupt men claiming they were men of God.

For a very long time the leadership of our Christian churches has been distracted and has become just as corrupt as our government. The problem goes back years, but has gotten far worse since the 1970's when an organized plan was put into place for Christians to become involved in politics and take over the government by putting Christian candidates up for election. The plan was basically to outlaw sin.

The results after 40 years has only turned sinners into criminals. Instead of cleaning up Washington it has corrupted the church and instead of winning souls for Christ their deception and lies have created more atheists and liberals.

Keeping the government separate from the church was meant to maintain the integrity of the church. By getting involved in politics it is the church that has lost it's integrity. We will all be a lot better off when the churches and Christians truly do start doing God's work again.

Preview of what the US would look like if the religious right ever got the power they seek...


On another note, where are the cries against radical Islam vis-a-vis Saudi Arabia, our 'allies''..

More "christians" especially some on the 'Fire should take heed to these two sentences.

No, you haven't read American history. Put down the Barton and D'souza and slowly back away...

Prior to becoming 'America', (the nation under the constitution), there was rampant discrimination by the religious, even against other 'christians' (i am forever amused by the irony that baptist used to be persecuted by other Christians).

When the 'conservatives' talk about America being founded as a 'Christian nation' they are right in the sense that various sects were in control of the colonies and demanded adherence to their doctrine and standards of conduct, including being a member in good standing of their denomination to hold office, etc. Other sects, non-believers, 'papists', Jews, etc were neither looked on nor favorably treated,

This was a large impetus to the founding fathers (mostly Jim and Tom) to 'secularize' the Constitution. They knew too well the dangers religion posed to government and vice versa.

So when Scott and others say they just want to be able to believe as they please without aggressively proselytizing others, I say, bravo. However, that is not what I referred to in my earlier response. The religious right has shown over and over they want to legislate morality. Who you can sleep with, who you can marry, what you can put in your body, what you can take out, what bathroom you have to use, what gender you must identify as, how you can protest, etc. etc.

if the religious right gained the power that the house of Saud wields, you'd see the rise and domination of the American Fascists. It's inevitable--when you believe that you worship the 'one, true God' and his precepts are the path of truth and, especially, when following (read: enforcing) those precepts will 'bless and prosper' the country--well then, woe to those who do not fall inline. They are 'traitors' and enemies of the all the country 'stands for'.

Of course, as mentioned, Tom and Jim understood this perfectly; hence, the 'wall of separation' principle.

We will all be a lot better off when the churches and Christians truly do start doing God's work again.

No they wouldn't!

As in "mind your own business"?
Where have we heard that before.

The "christian right" is as oppressive as the Saudis in many ways, but they won't admit it to themselves.

Let's take a look at what the Founder of Christianity says,

Matthew 28:19-20

"'Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.'"

Mark 16:15-16

"And He said to them, 'Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.'"

Some of those that do it come across as obnoxious puuggers. That's what turns a lot of folks off.

I am pretty far right, in fact I am a far enough right Constitutionalist to believe Rush is a rabid liberal, and I am a Christian. I just want to be left alone to believe in what I believe. I have no desire to try to convert anyone who does not ask me questions about my faith. Many here have sat around a campfire with me and can testify to that statement.

It's not the religious right that have been driving us in that direction. It's been the liberal atheists.

Lemme get this straight. An atheist gets on Twatter in Saudi Arabia and shares his views with everyone over there....including the authorities who enforce Sharia law....and thereby earns himself 10 years in jail and perpetual ass whippings. Kind of runs contrary to the narrative that atheists are smart don't it?

Sauer200,



Lot's of folks are turned off by the idea they should submit to a Higher Authority than their own. No matter how politely they are introduced to the idea. Don't forget it was religious leaders who put Jesus to death.

Get another stash of coke! What you have has messed up whatever grey matter is up there!

As in "mind your own business"?
Where have we heard that before.

The "christian right" is as oppressive as the Saudis in many ways, but they won't admit it to themselves.

It's a typical reaction to anyone who disagrees though, so it helps prove my point.

Don't forget it was religious leaders who put Jesus to death.

The most free society ever devised, was devised by Christians.

You are a total dumb fugk.




Sinning and Winning Dave

The Saudi religious police would like to talk to you.


Saudi Arabia sentences man to 10 years in jail and 2,000 lashes for tweeting he was atheist
the-sun.png
Published August 31, 2016

A court in Saudi Arabia has sentenced a man to ten years in prison and 2,000 lashes for expressing his atheism on Twitter.

You advocating the abortion of pit bulls?

Dewd... now ya got the pot stirred up GOOD!

Next thing you know you'll be throwing out the question of which zip lock baggie one should keep his shower weapon in... or... when you REALLY want to get things going... how to keep said weapon concealed while you shower...

In my very unprofessional opinion, no matter the subject, activity, etc......when human beings get involved it becomes a screwed up mess. That includes Christians, non Christians, agnostics, etc.

The religious right has shown over and over they want to legislate morality. Who you can sleep with, who you can marry, what you can put in your body, what you can take out, what bathroom you have to use, what gender you must identify as, how you can protest, etc. etc.

if the religious right gained the power that the house of Saud wields, you'd see the rise and domination of the American Fascists.

Of course, as mentioned, Tom and Jim understood this perfectly; hence, the 'wall of separation' principle.

Let's take a look at what the Founder of Christianity says,

You don't listen you turd, it is arseholes like you that are turning people away.

Now go take one for the team and commit suicide.

A simple reply to the OP would be " Don't tweet in Saudi Arabia"


But Noooooooo...this has to spin out of control immediately because atheists were mentioned and Christians just can't stand that.
I can't believe its gone three pages without getting the pot of abortion or pit bulls stirred up...
The mind boggles when I read some of the things you people actually believe....

While I agree with you about religion and wars the fire is hardly a reliable barometer.....

You could post a pic of a box of puppies on the "campfire" and someone would eventually come along and find something about it to chitmouth and argue about....

I am pretty far right, in fact I am a far enough right Constitutionalist to believe Rush is a rabid liberal, and I am a Christian. I just want to be left alone to believe in what I believe. I have no desire to try to convert anyone who does not ask me questions about my faith. Many here have sat around a campfire with me and can testify to that statement.

Not all Atheist are equal, nor are all Christians.

Ringy can't wrap his brain around that.

How do we know your box of puppies are certified and have all their proper papers? They might be illegals.
How can we be certain that the sale proceeds are not being used to fund the Jewish League of One World Government?
Or some other group such as the Masonic Devil Worshipers?

That's the spirit......all good points too but in the puppies defense...they are the perfect size for kicking....

And theres a private label baggie that Costco carries that allows easy access to your weapon in the show in case any negroes in pickups plow through the shower wall.

Sheeese, Didn't the original TRH post on shower guns advocate sealing a SS revolver in a certified acid free vacuum bag modded with a advanced tear notch?

Stick to the script won't you and don't be passing along bad intel.

Now you have done it...serial puppy abuse!

Scott, absolutely no disrespect intended. But knowledge of the inquisition would lead most free thinking people to another conclusion.

Ringman is **THE** Campfire poster child for the ignore function.

He and Savage99 keep new people choosing ignore every day here... As the 'fire burns...

If the religious right gained the power that the house of Saud wields, you'd see the rise and domination of the American Fascists.

The religious right has shown over and over they want to legislate morality. Who you can sleep with, who you can marry, what you can put in your body, what you can take out, what bathroom you have to use, what gender you must identify as, how you can protest, etc. etc.

Yep. One would be just as bad as the other.


Yep. Definitely. Nothing 'free' about their brand of 'freedom'.

Theocrates, Marxist, Fascist, letting any of these have total control will lead to a bad outcome.

That is what most of us see when we are logged in.

How can you not believe in God??

For me it's pretty easy.

Some folks want to cram their faith or their non faith down everyone else’s throats.

It's pretty easy to understand how very difficult it is to surrender ones life to a God that one has never seen. It's pretty easy to understand how very difficult it is to surrender ones life to a God who speaks to ones heart...who speaks through ancient literature...and who speaks through ones conscience.

Some of Jesus' own followers...people who were with Him and saw what He did...didn't 'believe' until *after* the resurrection.

Can there be any doubt that religion causes wars? No thread with religion in it stays civil, even here on the 'Fire.

The Saudi religious police would like to talk to you.


Saudi Arabia sentences man to 10 years in jail and 2,000 lashes for tweeting he was atheist
the-sun.png
Published August 31, 2016

A court in Saudi Arabia has sentenced a man to ten years in prison and 2,000 lashes for expressing his atheism on Twitter.

The 28-year-old reportedly refused to repent, insisting what he wrote reflected his beliefs and that he had the right to express them.

The hardline Islamic state’s religious police in charge of monitoring social networks found more than 600 tweets denying the existence of God, ridiculing Koranic verses, accusing all prophets of lies and saying their teaching fuelled hostilities.

In 2014 the late King Abdullah issued a string of royal decrees aimed at clamping down on all forms of political dissent and protests that could “harm public order”.

How can you not believe in God??

His believers have not met their burden of proof.

His believers have not met their burden of proof.

Nobody owes" you proof.

If you don't believe a 416 Rigby will shoot 350 and 400 gr. bullets into the same 2 inch circle at 100 yards, I'm under no obligation to prove it to you just because I made the claim.

Nobody owes" you proof.

If you don't believe a 416 Rigby will shoot 350 and 400 gr. bullets into the same 2 inch circle at 100 yards, I'm under no obligation to prove it to you just because I made the claim.

If we are on ignore, how do you know what we post? Are you omniscient or just guessing?

And I'm under no obligation to believe you without sufficient evidence.

No disrespect intended here either, but I really don't know how the Inquisition and today's practice of Christianity as a parallel ever make it into the darkest or perhaps simplest of minds, let alone "free thinkers". The Inquisition was borne at a time when the "church" had absolute power and if you recall, it is said absolute power corrupts absolutely. And it most certainly did corrupt in as many ways as humanity could find. So, if you really believe there is a parallel between then and now, there is truly nothing more to be said to you about that, but there most certainly is not.

The point of discussion was, what would a certain group of people do if not restrained by the Constitution, and allowed to attain absolute power.

People are people, we are the same people who have walked this Earth for at least the last six thousand years. Many people, such as Scott and I, are benign and just wish to be left alone while we leave the rest of the world alone.

But there still exists a vast predatory contingent of our population who will use any means available to gain influence over people and extract money from them.

Unfortunately, religion is one of the easiest means to gain control of a population. Once that control is gained, it must be enforced. Heretics must be imediately removed from the population before they gain a following, lest the Priesthood lose control of the population.

Thus we had Papal control of the civilized world and Papal subjugation, enslavement, and genocide of the natives of South America.

And now we have Sharia law in nations controled by Islam.

But even you have to admit that your lack of belief doesn't negate my assertion, whether the subject is rifles, or God.

There's plenty of proof if you want to find it. You will either believe or not believe depending on your decision. It's the decision that has to change,not the evidence. You can't even see the evidence until you make the decision to.

The evidence is available for all to examine, and I have. Every line of reasoning for the Christian God present so far falls by one or more logical fallacies.

Keep in mind, to support your belief you've also became a Young Earth Creationist, denying large swaths of science in favor of an ancient fable. As a result, your claims of evidence are not convincing.

Just because someone makes an assertion, that does not make it true...since you are the one making the assertion, you assume the burden of proof, not the other way around. So I am perfectly justified in not believing your claim until you prevent sufficient supporting evidence.

OK. But that goes both ways. No atheist who makes the assertion that God doesn't exist can prove their assertion. So believers are also justified in not believing the atheist's assertion until they can provide sufficient supporting evidence.

You are attempting to shift the burden of proof.

Theocrates, Marxist, Fascist, letting any of these have total control will lead to a bad outcome.

They have one thing in common: humanity.

However I will offer this, any god claim requiring a young Earth is sufficiently disproved.

God never claimed a young earth. Many of His believers do, simply because they havn't searched it out.
Neither is that any consequence regarding a person's salvation. God only cares about a very small finite amount of belief for that and the age of the earth is not on that short list.

If you want to believe then you will find a way. If you don't want to believe than no argument can sway you. It really is just that simple.

God never claimed a young earth. Many of His believers do, simply because they havn't searched it out.

Neither is that any consequence regarding a person's salvation. God only cares about a very small finite amount of belief for that and the age of the earth is not on that short list.

It doesn't matter how much I WANT to believe I'm a billionaire. The evidence, in the form of my bank balance, says otherwise. What you want to believe is irrelevant, it's the evidence that matters.

I do find it ironic that your all knowing, all powerful god can't even figure out what evidence would be sufficient to convince a modern skeptic of his existence.

It's not about God being able. It's about God wanting you to make the choice. If God appeared before you,you would have no choice but to believe. God wants his children to decide on their own to choose him ,not to be forced into it.

[It doesn't matter how much I WANT to believe I'm a billionaire. The evidence, in the form of my bank balance, says otherwise. What you want to believe is irrelevant, it's the evidence that matters. /quote]

While the spelling of want and won't is quite similar, their meaning is sometimes complimentary, in that those things we don't want to do, believe, hear, understand, also become things we won't do, believe, hear or understand. This is often true with political views, "settled science", and religion. With some things the results can be minor, but with others, cataclysmic.

On the other hand, those things we do want, very often become the things we have and are. That is the power of faith, or at least an illustration.

[quote]I do find it ironic that your all knowing, all powerful god can't even figure out what evidence would be sufficient to convince a modern skeptic of his existence

lol

Athiests claim that God doesn't exist, and believers claim that God does exist. But to athiests, 'only' believers are required to prove their claim...athiests conveniently exclude themselves from having to prove their claim.

So you God want's us to believe based on bad evidence?

As for him not wanting us to be forced, that whole Hell think kind of contradicts that hypothesis. Eternal torture for the crime of non-believe is a level of coercion not consistent with "letting us choose". Imagine you told you son he could choose any profession he wanted to, because you respected his right to choose, but if he didn't' become a doctor you would drench him in gasoline and light him on fire. Are you really respecting his free will, or exercising massive coercion?

You're the only one who can't prove your claim.

Many keep saying "the evidence is everywhere" but oddly they can't seem to show it to anyone else.

You're still confused.

He's proved it to himself.So have I and billions of others as well. And there is nothing odd in not being able to prove anything to anyone whose mind simply will not believe.Sad, yes, but not odd.

lol

Athiests claim that God doesn't exist, and believers claim that God does exist. But to athiests, 'only' believers are required to prove their claim...athiests conveniently exclude themselves from having to prove their claim.

There is proof of God's existence in His creation which is all around you.

You're making sense...normally not tolerated in a theological discussion.

Sorry...Don't know Ringman

So you God want's us to believe based on bad evidence?

As for him not wanting us to be forced, that whole Hell think kind of contradicts that hypothesis. Eternal torture for the crime of non-believe is a level of coercion not consistent with "letting us choose". Imagine you told you son he could choose any profession he wanted to, because you respected his right to choose, but if he didn't' become a doctor you would drench him in gasoline and light him on fire. Are you really respecting his free will, or exercising massive coercion?

It's not ironic, it's you. He's convinced many complete non-believers who, when setting out to write about their disbelief, suddenly found themselves face to faith with a different Truth. The evidence is in abundance, but then so is it for many trials that somehow go wrong. That's not ironic either, but another won't.

He's proved it to himself.So have I and billions of others as well. And there is nothing odd in not being able to prove anything to anyone whose mind simply will not believe.Sad, yes, but not odd.

You arrived here many years too late to see my posts in the reloading forums. I was working with the new RUM's and a couple of AI cartridges so the information we swapped here was not obtainable any other way.There is a "sticky" of archived material just above if you want to research them.

There is proof of God's existence in His creation which is all around you.

YOU are arguing from a negative position and cannot offer an alternative explanation for this creation.

That's it in a nutshell (pun intended). These threads I generally stay away from since atheists demand I offer proof of faith. By definition faith doesn't require proof lest it no longer is faith.

I'll answer for my faith come judgement day as will those that have no faith. Until that day I'll continue to believe and I'll accept that others don't.

God isn't punishing anyone by sending them to Hell. Hell is already your destination. God is only offering you a way out of Hell.

Who created Hell and the rule that everyone who does not believe in him goes there?

If any of this was true, and there's no good reason to believe it is, your god would be responsible for this unjust system and every soul destined to Hell. Of course this is all because a woman created out of a rib stole a piece of fruit before being imbued with the knowledge of right and wrong.

So if you believe in original sin, do you believe Adam and Eve were literal historical people?

Say his name three times while standing on one foot.

He will show up.

omg. please don't start pointing fingers at who is guilty and who isn't.

god created us all, right, and so, the ancient Hebrews knew early on that we can't know the mind of God, ever. it's outside of our reach, no matter what latter-day apologists have to offer or share.

we can't just make stuff up, and then call it the Truth. we must build the Truth from the basics of our Reality/Actuality. so far, we seem to be failing mightily, but no one has given up quite yet.

It's unfortunate, in most instances, that the movement sparked by Jesus’ resurrection has become what it has. In the early years, the followers of Jesus simply gathered together as a dedicated group to learn more about, worship, and carry on the truth of Jesus. But over time, dramatic shifts in emphasis and direction have occurred and these 'gatherings' have become legalistic, hierarchical, ritualized, and politicized institutions.

I agree. I would go to church if I found one like that.

Yep. Big time.

Have you abandoned your belief in a young earth?

I agree. I would go to church if I found one like that.

You are mistaken in that you have confused belief in the divine for belief in religious doctrine.

The former is by choice, the latter is written on paper.

Gus, I've never agreed to your assertion we were created by a god. You must first establish that your God exists before you can claim he created anything. Can you even define your God? How and you prove something exists that you can't even define?

Who created Hell and the rule that everyone who does not believe in him goes there?

If any of this was true, and there's no good reason to believe it is, your god would be responsible for this unjust system and every soul destined to Hell. Of course this is all because a woman created out of a rib stole a piece of fruit before being imbued with the knowledge of right and wrong.

So if you believe in original sin, do you believe Adam and Eve were literal historical people?

AS, My faith doesn't need proof, that's why it's faith. I'm fine not giving you "proof" since I already believe. You, however, in absence of faith can't prove that God doesn't exist. I acknowledge that my beliefs are based on faith, you believe your beliefs are based on facts yet you offer no proof or evidence to support those facts. Since you fancy yourself smarter than Christians prove that God doesn't exist. I don't have to prove he does because I've seen him and his work in my life, therefore I choose to believe.

Go ahead prove God does not exist. After you're done chasing your tail prove that Jesus didn't exist and wasn't the son of God.

I have faith; faith that the sun will rise and faith that Jesus was sent for all of us. Even those that CHOOSE not to believe.

Scott,

There's a few groups like that around here. One such group met at one of our former neighbors house, but as the gathering grew, parking became an issue and the HOA started to make a stink about it. It's for these reasons, that at a certain size, a dedicated spaces is needed, and that cost money. This introduces a church bureaucracy, and all that entails, and the small simple group you joined is no more.

Belief without evidence. That's called gullibility. Your is a common tactic for theist. Offer no evidence, don't tell anyone what you belive, nor why you believe it, and shift the burden of proof. Once you've done that, next you endless move the goal posts which is why most Theist won't even define their God to start this discussion. If you wish me to disprove your theistic claims, we must first establish which version of the supernatural we are discussing:

Belief without evidence. That's called gullibility. Your is a common tactic for theist. Offer no evidence, don't tell anyone what you belive, nor why you believe it, and shift the burden of proof. Once you've done that, next you endless move the goal posts which is why most Theist won't even define their God to start this discussion.

If you wish me to disprove your theistic claims, we must first establish which version of the supernatural we are discussing:

Remember this:



Can you define your God?

He's proved it to himself.So have I and billions of others as well. And there is nothing odd in not being able to prove anything to anyone whose mind simply will not believe.Sad, yes, but not odd.

No, it's really not.
They would be if they could get away with it, but they can't.

uh, oh no. no way in this world to fully define god. even the ancient hebrews, very close to moses, and the others can do that. it's impossible. but god is a "metaphor" for the reality in which we find ourselves. just remember, we don't know from whence we came, where we are, not where we are headed next. but, we're doing our best to make sense of where we are at this moment. can we agree on that?

My best friend doesn't believe in god. but believes in ghosts. He doesn't try to prove to me that ghosts exist and I don't try to prove to him that nothing exists.

We do come up with some good one liners about religion that get a "You two shut the f u c k up!" from his wife.

I'm raising the Bull $hit flag too. I'm a believer but its not my place to push my beliefs on anyone and I don't know anyone outside the Baptist Church who does either, lol...

AS, you are again descending to your tired and useless tactics. Either you do not understand "faith" or you refuse to deal with even its most basic nature. Of course, you are free to call it "gullibility", but many excellent and erudite folks understand and apply faith as a lofty and sublime factor - entirely different from the gullibility you profess. No one is trying to shift a "burden" for there is no burden to shift. That is one of the fascinating and sublime facets of faith.

The above gentleman did not deride you in religious terms or ask or express a wish for you to disprove any particular theistic claims. He merely observed the differences between the bases for his position and the bases you express for yours, and he did not claim to prove anything. He acknowledged that he has no burden - therfore there is none to be shifted. He simply invited you to "go ahead" and prove your position on the basis of what you claim to hold. He is not arguing - he has told you to go ahead and argue if you wish.

Faith in an omniscient/omnipotent/everlasting God is a huge and powerful thing - it changes certain lives in ways beyond simple description. If a person does not understand or exercise that, discussions such as this can be be difficult, frustrating and even futile.

Even that is not justification for sleazy tactics.

The Bible itself says that Hell was created for the devil and his angles.

Yes, I believe Adam and Eve were actual people. As to original sin,I do not believe that a baby or anyone not beyond a certain age would go to Hell if they died. Whatever age that is would be just when God decided that person was accountable. I believe that people Go to Hell for their own sins,no original sin needed. What I think happened when Adam sinned was that men inherited the propensity for sin. There's no one that hasn't sinned. By sin and rebellion a person ally's themselves to Satan and thus to his punishment.

I guess you've never met a Pentecostal, nor any of the Millerites, i.e. Jehovah witness, 7th day Adventist etc.

He knows me and I am what you might refer to a Pentecost, as in a Spirit filled Christian.

So, you believe Adam and Eve were real people, but the story of Original Sin is figurative, and not literal. When creating Man, God created them in his own image, but in doing so, made them the natural ally of Satan?

Is that an accurate summary of your position?

Any HONEST scientist, when confronted with a Creation - all that there is - would either adopt a default position of SOMETHING or SOMEONE must have started this and thus deserves to be called God, or........

He would readily see that since the "Creation moment", by its nature, can never be observed or duplicated and thus is not a fit subject for Science.

Only an arrogant, ego driven Humanist would argue that there simply MUST be an explanation for Creation other than a Creator even though that explanation DOES NOT EXIST.

Antelope Sniper finds it more to his liking to shoot holes in posts submitted by the Biblialators than to respond to posts such as mine. He knows that if he continues a dialogue with me that he will finally have to admit to some sort of "first cause" for all that there is,ie Creation, but he can't refer to that "first cause" as "God".[we have come to that point before, you see]

It's scary to consider that the "first cause" might take a personal interest in him, but not be impressed by his intellect.

The idea of an intelligent, universe-creating god "just existing" is far more difficult to explain than the universe itself "just existing".

The idea of an intelligent, universe-creating god "just existing" is far more difficult to explain than the universe itself "just existing".

lol

So the universe and intelligent life can 'just exist', but a divine awareness who created all of it could not...?

Which is more complex, the Universe or the entity you propose to have created it?

Neither proposition is understandable. Both are beyond our comprehension.

But..... if I accept the first proposition (a creator) on faith, the second (the universe) is explained. The reverse is not true.

No...... it is not. In fact, your statement borders on being ridiculous.

Neither proposition is understandable. Both are beyond our comprehension.

But..... if I accept the first proposition on faith, the second is explained. The reverse is not true.

A "just existing" universe raises more questions than it answers and does not even merit consideration.

The idea of an intelligent, universe-creating god "just existing" is far more difficult to explain than the universe itself "just existing".

The idea of an intelligent, universe-creating god "just existing" is far more difficult to explain than the universe itself "just existing".

Oh he is omniscient....I even bet he knows I said so!

Hmmm, just thought, doesn't your talking to an omniscient being mean you are worshiping him?


Discuss amongst yourselves.

Than instead of saying "God", why not just say, "We don't know." Why the need to substitute a supernatural being in the place of "I don't know"?

Antelope Sniper's time would be better spent trying to uncover the reason he - PERSONALLY - resists the idea of a Higher Power so strongly that he abandons any semblance of the scientific thought process he holds so dear.

He acts as if by disposing of the Christian worldview he has dispensed with the whole notion of a Spiritual Dimension in the Universe.If all those persons he designates as "unbelievers" when throwing out statistics were to be questioned at depth,they would be discovered to be Pantheists at minimum.

Oftentimes, the reason a person is wrong is more important than the fact that they are wrong.

Is there a 'logical fallacy' when one attacks the messenger instead of the message?

If a person is good and decent, I don't concern myself with what got them there.

I would if I understood it.

If knowing what a "logical fallacy" is were to become a prerequisite for posting on these type threads, they would be pretty short.

It's not important enough to google.

Only to those who believe God should be them. Most everyone else throughout history has understood, and quite easily, that there is a God because there has to be. As He revealed Himself, specifics become clearer. With the leading of the Holy Spirit, beyond clear to amazing.

You're just a very unfortunate and ill-advised individual who has misspent his time intently learning not to believe in the obvious, to your eternal detriment. You can turn that around, if you choose to, just as you chose the path you are on now. Sometimes "to thine ownself be true" is simply being true to a lie.

Thanks for demonstrating for him how I know what he posts.

You see RM there's a quote function some use to waste bandwidth by quoting twits like you and dumb don.

The good you do in your short life is all that really counts. Believing in an invisible guy in the sky (or wherever you believe he is) isn't important at all and doesn't make you a better person.

I starting going to church at a very young age and remember thinking how bizarre it was. None of it made sense to me but I figured that maybe it would make sense at some point. After studying the Bible for years and listening to preachers explain what the verses in the Bible really meant the exact opposite happened. The more I learned about religion the more bizarre it became. I have a few questions for you all knowing Bible thumpers that might help me be enlightened like yourselves:

1) If your God is all knowing and all powerful why does he let other religions exist?
2) How many people do you personally know that went to Heaven?
3) How many people do you personally know who went to Hell?
4) Why do people pray out loud when God knows what they're thinking?
5) Why do you believe that just because you don't understand how something came to exist that your God created it from nothing?
6) Why do you believe that only religious people can have morals?
7) Why do you believe that you are superior and more moral than people who don't believe what you believe?
8) If you do go to your Heaven when you die do you revert to an earlier age when you were healthy?
9) How can a baby or young child be saved from going to your Hell when they can't possibly understand your religion?
10) Do you really believe that EVERYBODY that doesn't believe what you believe is going to burn in your Hell for eternity?
11) Are there animals in your Heaven? They're your God's creatures too.

I could go on and on but it would just fall on deaf ears. The good you do in your short life is all that really counts. Believing in an invisible guy in the sky (or wherever you believe he is) isn't important at all and doesn't make you a better person.

victoro,



It looks like you finished this thread.

Are you honestly interested in the answers to your questions, or do you just post them as points of contention, having a mind already decided?

I'll give it a shot if you don't mind:

1) If your God is all knowing and all powerful why does he let other religions exist? Religion is man made, not God made. People have the free will to do whatever they want and believe whatever they want.

2) How many people do you personally know that went to Heaven? I won't know that until I personally get to heaven, but I'd bet I know quite a few that are there, based on their beliefs that I knew about while they were living here on earth.

3) How many people do you personally know who went to Hell? Not sure about that either, but I believe I have known a few, once again based on their beliefs while alive. I'm not the eternal judge...God is.

4) Why do people pray out loud when God knows what they're thinking? It is a sign of obedience, reverence, and worship. However, we are warned not to pray " on the street corner" with the intention of bringing attention to ourselves and not about God.

5) Why do you believe that just because you don't understand how something came to exist that your God created it from nothing? God created everything from nothing, I believe, because it says so in Genesis.

6) Why do you believe that only religious people can have morals? I do not believe that at all.

7) Why do you believe that you are superior and more moral than people who don't believe what you believe? I do not believe that at all either. What I am though, is forgiven, saved by grace. Something a non believer cannot say.

8) If you do go to your Heaven when you die do you revert to an earlier age when you were healthy? I have no idea, but the Bible says we get a new body that is perfect, so I will go with that.

9) How can a baby or young child be saved from going to your Hell when they can't possibly understand your religion? I believe that God is fair and just. If a young child hasn't reached the age of reason and accountability (varies for each person) then God will extend grace and mercy to that individual.

10) Do you really believe that EVERYBODY that doesn't believe what you believe is going to burn in your Hell for eternity? Yes I do. The rules are explained in the Holy Bible, and I believe every word.

11) Are there animals in your Heaven? They're your God's creatures too. There is no mention in the Bible of animals being in heaven, so I can't say. It really doesn't matter though, does it?

I wish all religious posts were banned on this forum.

I could go on and on but it would just fall on deaf ears. The good you do in your short life is all that really counts. Believing in an invisible guy in the sky (or wherever you believe he is) isn't important at all and doesn't make you a better person.

Open minded rationalism at its best.

I'll give it a shot if you don't mind:

1) If your God is all knowing and all powerful why does he let other religions exist? Religion is man made, not God made. People have the free will to do whatever they want and believe whatever they want.

2) How many people do you personally know that went to Heaven? I won't know that until I personally get to heaven, but I'd bet I know quite a few that are there, based on their beliefs that I knew about while they were living here on earth.

3) How many people do you personally know who went to Hell? Not sure about that either, but I believe I have known a few, once again based on their beliefs while alive. I'm not the eternal judge...God is.

4) Why do people pray out loud when God knows what they're thinking? It is a sign of obedience, reverence, and worship. However, we are warned not to pray " on the street corner" with the intention of bringing attention to ourselves and not about God.

5) Why do you believe that just because you don't understand how something came to exist that your God created it from nothing? God created everything from nothing, I believe, because it says so in Genesis.

6) Why do you believe that only religious people can have morals? I do not believe that at all.

7) Why do you believe that you are superior and more moral than people who don't believe what you believe? I do not believe that at all either. What I am though, is forgiven, saved by grace. Something a non believer cannot say.

8) If you do go to your Heaven when you die do you revert to an earlier age when you were healthy? I have no idea, but the Bible says we get a new body that is perfect, so I will go with that.

9) How can a baby or young child be saved from going to your Hell when they can't possibly understand your religion? I believe that God is fair and just. If a young child hasn't reached the age of reason and accountability (varies for each person) then God will extend grace and mercy to that individual.

10) Do you really believe that EVERYBODY that doesn't believe what you believe is going to burn in your Hell for eternity? Yes I do. The rules are explained in the Holy Bible, and I believe every word.

11) Are there animals in your Heaven? They're your God's creatures too. There is no mention in the Bible of animals being in heaven, so I can't say. It really doesn't matter though, does it?

I hope God has his lawyer with him when all the Atheists hold Him to account.Otherwise, He won't have a chance with the likes of Antelope Sniper and victorio sitting as judges,

I pretty much agree but I would like to say it's important for men to pray out loud because God still works through men. It's up to men to declare God's will on earth and to see that it's done with his help.

Too often men pray God do this or God do that. The scripture says that Jesus is seated at the right hand of God expecting until his enemies be made his footstool.Who do you think Jesus is expecting to accomplish that? Instead of praying God do such and such a thing, we should be praying."God what do you want me to do!"

No, I'm not preaching to destroy God's enemies.That's the tactics Satan is using pretending to be God.What I'm saying is that Godly men and women can't sit back and do nothing while praying for God to fix things.We have to stand and give voice to what is right and what is wrong. We have to use the authority and ability God gave us. Part of that is not being ashamed to stand up and pray out loud.

what i hope we can move a way from is the idea or concept of a superstitious or Majical God. that is, we give thanks for God saving our wife, spouse, neighbor, friend, from dying of cancer, car wreck, etc., while just down the hall in the hospital a small child, older adult, etc. etc. meets the dust. death happens. why would god save one over another for heaven's sakes. we all got to die, at some point. i'm trying to convey the thought that we do not report to nor worship a majiccal god. that's too easy for the charlatans to exploit and take advantage of. you know what of i speak, i'm certain. god allows it to rain on the just and unjust alike. likewise people get healed no matter their background, condition, or future outcomes. others die tragic deaths, and it wasn't their fault nor anyone elses. bottom line is that the worship of god is Not a majiccal experience in reality. but for many folks, it is.

...and a lot of it is just a result of living in a Fallen world...

It's up to men to declare God's will on earth and to see that it's done with his help.

How many followers in your cult?

if you take my meaning correctly.

I hope so! I wish all religious posts were banned on this forum.

I hope God has his lawyer with him when all the Atheists hold Him to account.Otherwise, He won't have a chance with the likes of Antelope Sniper and victorio sitting as judges,

Well, if he is all knowing and powerful, etc., shouldn't he be held accountable for all of the bullschit going on?

Sorry..... I just read the BLACK part of your post and a vision of dead koolaid drinkers flashed thru my mind.

Might be a Texas thing but folks were describing themselves as "Christians" rather than a particular denomination long before the 'sixties as you stated.

Having only two political parties has worked out so well that maybe we should try it with religion also.

We have to stand and give voice to what is right and what is wrong. We have to use the authority and ability God gave us.

Yes, I thought I said that.

Baptists, and Born Again Christians, have more contrasting views than those they have in common.

To think you can understand everything God thinks and/or does is a little arrogant, and wrong.

Isaiah 55:8-9King James Version (KJV)

8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord.

9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

It's all true. You can't pick and choose.

To think you can understand everything God thinks and/or does is a little arrogant, and wrong.

Isaiah 55:8-9King James Version (KJV)

8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord.

9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

It's all true. You can't pick and choose.

R_H_Clark,



Would this include running for public office?

That's YOUR belief, It is not a requirement to be a Christian.

antelope_sniper,



Certainly you accept entropy. If the universe is "just existing" the available energy would have totally dissipated into unusable entropy an eternity ago.

An Infinite Intelligent Energy Being would be just that: Infinite. By faith you choose to believe what you believe contrary to established scientific observations.

I'm well aware of the effects of entropy on this universe and how current scientific models predict it will end in "The Big Chill". There is nothing in this model contrary to the current scientific observations. It really would be beneficial to you if you started getting your science from real scientist.

Parts of the bible that paint a picture of God which are contrary to what a man knows God's nature to be should be counted of no worth to him.

Of course, if a man is hung up on theology, he will try to make ALL of it fit God's nature which requires all sorts of mental contortions.

Any HONEST scientist, when confronted with a Creation - all that there is - would either adopt a default position of SOMETHING or SOMEONE must have started this and thus deserves to be called God, or........

He would readily see that since the "Creation moment", by its nature, can never be observed or duplicated and thus is not a fit subject for Science.

Only an arrogant, ego driven Humanist would argue that there simply MUST be an explanation for Creation other than a Creator even though that explanation DOES NOT EXIST.

Antelope Sniper finds it more to his liking to shoot holes in posts submitted by the Biblialators than to respond to posts such as mine. He knows that if he continues a dialogue with me that he will finally have to admit to some sort of "first cause" for all that there is,ie Creation, but he can't refer to that "first cause" as "God".[we have come to that point before, you see]

It's scary to consider that the "first cause" might take a personal interest in him, but not be impressed by his intellect.

thanks, Antelope Sniper for leading us through the discussions related to the ins and outs of our religious beliefs.

we don't know is the best answer available to us at the moment, and for the last 10,000 years more or less. it's the best horse in the stable at the moment.

for all i know when the space aliens visited earth, the locals thought they were all Gods because of their advanced technology (and power), compared to humankind, even the kings of the tribes. little could the locals imagine these were folks just like them, come to help advance the human species.

but, there's a dilemma in that analysis. that the space aliens came to visit while possibly true, would posit the question "who created the space aliens?" that would remove us at least one step further away from God, wouldn't it? so, no matter how appealing to me that we were seeded here by extraterrestrials, who in the world created them?

Oftentimes, the reason a person is wrong is more important than the fact that they are wrong.

I would if I understood it.

If knowing what a "logical fallacy" is were to become a prerequisite for posting on these type threads, they would be pretty short.

It's not important enough to google.

I'll give it a shot if you don't mind:

9) How can a baby or young child be saved from going to your Hell when they can't possibly understand your religion? I believe that God is fair and just. If a young child hasn't reached the age of reason and accountability (varies for each person) then God will extend grace and mercy to that individual.

10) Do you really believe that EVERYBODY that doesn't believe what you believe is going to burn in your Hell for eternity? Yes I do. The rules are explained in the Holy Bible, and I believe every word.

11) Are there animals in your Heaven? They're your God's creatures too. There is no mention in the Bible of animals being in heaven, so I can't say. It really doesn't matter though, does it?

I hope so! I wish all religious posts were banned on this forum.

It's called free will, which is what God gave all of us. Some use it wisely most of the time, others...not so much.

You didn't ask me but I'll tell you.

A man should have a close enough relationship with the God of his understanding that he has an idea of His nature.

Parts of the bible that paint a picture of God which are contrary to what a man knows God's nature to be should be counted of no worth to him.

Of course, if a man is hung up on theology, he will try to make ALL of it fit God's nature which requires all sorts of mental contortions.

curdog4570,



You are correct. As I have posted here previously when I was a fairly new Christian I used to ask people almost everywhere I went if they were a Christian. The vast majority said, “Yes.”

Then one day, to make conversation, I asked how long he had been born again. He didn’t have a clue what I was talking about.
So I started asking people what it takes to be a Christian. There was a world of answers. You need to know only the actual born again Christians will be with Jesus.

What does free will have to do with earthquakes, tsunami's, floods, droughts, malaria etc?

Yeah, let's get our facts from scientists, the same bunch of clowns that brought us global warming. Great idea.

Parts of the bible that paint a picture of God which are contrary to what a man knows God's nature to be should be counted of no worth to him.

Personally, I find most of Genesis to be somewhat true in the sense that most of the characters of Aesop were based on truths, but you can't take it literally. It probably was from oral traditions that morphed who knows how much, or from too many misinterpreted or otherwise untranslatable rewrites. Most of you read King James bible or more modern versions that were mostly taken from there. Heck I can't hardly understand Chaucer and that wasn't much before King James,They even claim that it is English but Jame's scholars translated words from Arabic, Hebrew, Sanskrit, Latin, and other languages that were more than a thousand years old in times that language changed much faster than it has since the written word has become much more widespread, I believe they got it all mixed up literally, even if the gist of it all is still there.

Just look at the first few pages if you don't think so. In Genesis 1, God made man and woman, then Adam named stuff and etc. In Genesis 2, Adam is lonely so God makes his rib into a woman (what happened to the one he made in book 1?) Then there is Cain and Able, and Cain's wife - who is she, where did those people in Nod come from? That is just for starters all of Genesis follows this pattern, but it is really old, and as I said before, probably largely an attempt to first write an oral tradition. The closer we get to the era of Christ the more accurate, and the better the writing skills of the chroniclers gets. We know plenty of Cesar, Alexander, Cicero, and many others, Christ as well, but most of the things that are considered silly by Atheists are all found in Genesis. It comes at the very dawn of written history which explains why it can't be taken literally in my opinion, but that doesn't necessarily make it false in essence. That probably is not what many other people believe, but it is my belief and allows me to be religious, non-denominational and rational.

Preview of what the US would look like if the religious right ever got the power they seek...

Funny thing is. The religious right Founded America and wrote its founding documents. You must have missed that in History Class.

None of those things come from God. Some uninformed Christians may tell you so but they are all a result of man's free will. All evil entered into the world through sin, and sin through man's choice.

As has been said ,we live in a fallen world where bad things happen. Everything doesn't happen because God wills it to happen.

None of those things come from God. Some uninformed Christians may tell you so but they are all a result of man's free will. All evil entered into the world through sin, and sin through man's choice.

As has been said ,we live in a fallen world where bad things happen. Everything doesn't happen because God wills it to happen.

Don't you mean Global Cooling?

Fortunately those involved in climate science are not cosmologist.

What you present is a long way from an "inerrant" word of God. If the Bible was truly the inerrant word of God, it wouldn't matter when it was written. You've helped establish that at least some of the Bible does not meet that description, now the question just become how much of it is in error and not to be takes as the literal work of God.

You could bet your last buck they are evolutionists.

That's because evolution is a fact. Changes in allele frequencies within populations over time occur.

Please. It is a superstition unsupported by real science. Explain to us the Cambrian explosion.

A young earth creationist trying to defend his position by referencing the Cambrian explosion.

Now that's funny!!

Do you even know when it occurred, and over what time frame?

So you are not going to explain it?

If you pack of pricks don't give up on this I shall set my lunatic Christian mother upon you, the witch has her own prayer room and spends some four hours each day studying and praying.
Each week her and the rest of her lunatic coterie meet upon the local mountain overlooking the city she lives in and spends a couple of hours praying over the town and it's citizens.

I hope that was more tongue in cheek than I took it.

Sweet have her pray for me. I need it!

Really odd thing is it generally works, coincidence I suppose.

Your mother is a SAINT.

Yeah, good one sport...there is no way in hell that woman is a saint, or even saintly.

Like all of her ilk she has a curiously one-eyed view of the world where-upon anything not in pammy-world does not exist, a trait most of those lunatics share.

My mother was a woman of prayer. She was no lunatic. Some of her prayers were answered, too. Coincidence I suppose. Well she's been gone a year. Miss her.

I shall probably miss mine when she is gone too, but at the moment I enjoy immensely annoying the living Christ out of her.

Do you understand that it began about 542 million years ago.....and that 542,000,000 years is much further in the past then then 6,000 years?

If you pack of pricks don't give up on this I shall set my lunatic Christian mother upon you, the witch has her own prayer room and spends some four hours each day studying and praying.
Each week her and the rest of her lunatic coterie meet upon the local mountain overlooking the city she lives in and spends a couple of hours praying over the town and it's citizens.

Even that tosser Ringy-thingy seems quite normal when compared to her.

SO BEWARE...there are bigger nut-jobs out there than you!

What you present is a long way from an "inerrant" word of God. If the Bible was truly the inerrant word of God, it wouldn't matter when it was written. You've helped establish that at least some of the Bible does not meet that description, now the question just become how much of it is in error and not to be takes as the literal work of God.

YOU WIN, I SURRENDER! I love you sense of humour.

Please ask to add me to her list.

I think the universe is held together by lunatic mums. Give her a hug from me.

antelope_sniper,



Like I observed, you're not going to explain it. If I was an evolutionist I would stay away from it also.

Christianity does not exist because of 'the Bible'...it's actually the other way around...'the Bible' exists because of the Christian faith.

Christianity made some incredibly great strides during the 300 or so years before 'the Bible' even existed. There was no Bible like we think of a Bible today; there was no Old Testament and New Testament put together so somebody could say "the Bible says." Christianity was not born on the back of "the Bible says." The Jewish scriptures were not even combined with the New Testament documents until around 350 A.D..

Before the OT and NT were combined and titled 'The Bible', Christianity had already replaced the pantheon of Roman, Barbarian, and most of the Egyptian gods, and was the state religion of the Roman Empire...!

And no one had ever held in their hand 'the Bible'. The 1st, 2nd, and 3rd century Christians, who faced tremendous hardships, believed Jesus loved them *before* 'the Bible' told them so. They did not choose to follow Jesus because of an infallible Old Testament or a non-contradicting New Testament.

Many Christians feel compelled to defend 'the Bible' because to them, the only way to defend the Christian faith is to defend 'the Bible'. It is next to impossible to defend the entire Bible. Christianity does not hang by the thread of "the Bible tells me so."

Christianity does not exist because of 'the Bible'...it's actually the other way around...'the Bible' exists because of the Christian faith.

Christianity made some incredibly great strides during the 300 or so years before 'the Bible' even existed. There was no Bible like we think of a Bible today; there was no Old Testament and New Testament put together so somebody could say "the Bible says." Christianity was not born on the back of "the Bible says." The Jewish scriptures were not even combined with the New Testament documents until around 350 A.D..

Before the OT and NT were combined and titled 'The Bible', Christianity had already replaced the pantheon of Roman, Barbarian, and most of the Egyptian gods, and was the state religion of the Roman Empire...!

And no one had ever held in their hand 'the Bible'. The 1st, 2nd, and 3rd century Christians, who faced tremendous hardships, believed Jesus loved them *before* 'the Bible' told them so. They did not choose to follow Jesus because of an infallible Old Testament or a non-contradicting New Testament.

Many Christians feel compelled to defend 'the Bible' because to them, the only way to defend the Christian faith is to defend 'the Bible'. It is next to impossible to defend the entire Bible. Christianity does not hang by the thread of "the Bible tells me so."

Originally Posted By antlers
If ones personal faith and belief in The Messiah is threatened by what others say or believe, or by what ancient manuscripts contain...then maybe the problem isn't with what others say or believe, or with what ancient manuscripts contain.

Answered by Doc Rocket

Well, you're kind of right about this, on a basic level.

However, it appears you are not up to speed on the history surrounding the Canon of New Testament scripture, nor the Judeo-Christian tradition of debate over minutiae! Don't worry, you're not alone. I doubt that 1 Christian in 10 in the USA knows even the basic history of the First Century Church. Nonbelievers, maybe 1 in 1000.

The first thing, i.e., why are we Christians so quick to argue about What others say and believe about the Christian faith, is because what we ALL say about our faith matters to EVERY Christian believer. The traditions of Judaism, outlined in the Torah and multiple rabbinical texts, argue that discussion of every new viewpoint on Scripture is not just desirable, but a mandatory exercise in the Jewish religion. And Christianity, which is nothing more nor less than the fulfillment of the Jewish religion in the person, life works, and teachings of Jesus, has followed that tradition for millenia.

So that's why we argue about it. It's our tradition. If you don't like our tradition, butt out and go take care of your own traditions. I'm not being mean or angry here, I'm just sayin'.

The second thing: why does every new "ancient" text or artifact that pops up stir up immediate opposition by so many Christians? Well, it's because our faith is founded on a very carefully selected set of writings from the first century A.D. While some non-Christians (i.e., outsiders who don't "get" our traditions) may take delight in promoting "new" texts that appear to contradict the Canon of Scripture--because they're mostly ch!tt-disturbers, in my experience--these texts are almost always the same old crap that's been popping up since the 2nd or 3rd century, and which has been cataloged in the Pulp Fiction aisle of the theological library for the better part of 2000 years.

99% of Christians are largely ignorant of the history of the early Church, from the time of the Acts of the Apostles to the Fall of Jerusalem in AD 70. This was a time of enormous expansion of the Church, but the very cool part about it was that while the number of Christians exploded over the course of a few decades, the geographic expansion was very small. This meant that pretty much EVERYone knew somebody who actually knew, was taught by, and witnessed the miracles of Jesus. And the Jews, who comprised the early majority of Christians, were/are real sticklers for THE TRUTH.

This means nobody could bullsh!t about the Gospel of Christ. Posers were recognized and cast out immediately. You couldn't hide behind an internet handle in those days. You were either the real deal, or you got stoned to death. Sometimes you even got stoned to death if you WERE the real deal, so being a poser wasn't exactly a high-paying gig, you know what I'm saying? Oh, and keep in mind that in the First Century it wasn't like today, when any schmoe can write a book and publish it online... if you wrote a book then, the only way it got published was if other people agreed that it was really good stuff, and copied it out by hand for other folks to read.

So the people who actually wrote down the life, words, teachings, and miracles of Jesus were guys who actually knew him. If someone didn't really know him and TELL THE TRUTH as it was known by hundreds of first-hand witnesses, their scribblings would've been ignored. If not burned and the author stoned to death. By the early 2nd Century, the de facto Canon of Scripture we know as the New Testament had been pretty much agreed upon by the vast majority of Church leaders and scholars, based on a very tight-knit history they all shared.

Mark wrote his Gospel first, probably within about 20 years of Jesus' death and resurrection. John's gospel was probably written within a few years of the Fall of Jerusalem, Matthew and Luke somewhere in between. Lots of other folks wrote down their memories of the events, too, but for the most part these were ignored by the Church because the majority of the Churches thought they were incomplete, contained too many untruths, or were flawed in other ways. The four main Gospels were endorsed and widely circulated as a result.

Now, there were some dissenters (as there always are in human affairs) and they started up their own versions of church that were anywhere from slightly wonky to batsh!t-crazy. And by the early 3rd Century, enough of these outliers existed that the orthodox Church had no choice but to lay down the law--in keeping with ancient Judeo-Christian traditions of heterodoxy--and they held a series of councils in which the majority of Christian leaders and scholars said what was the truest material in keeping with the historical writings of Church Fathers. All of batsh!t-crazy gospels were ch!tt-canned at that time, but all manner of non-believers keep bringing them up as "proof" against the Christian religion.

So that's why we care about somebody resurrecting (pun intended) some piece of batsh!t-crazy "Christian" writing from the 6th Century. Our forefathers worked really, really hard to clean up the true story about Jesus for us. They paid for it with their blood and their very lives, and we owe them a debt for that.

And that's why we tend to be derisive and dismissive about "ancient" texts that get "discovered" that were written at least 500 years after the Biblical texts we endorse. It's part of our tradition.

People who aren't Bible-believing Christians can say and think what they like for themselves, but they can't expect us not to defend our religion, our tradition, our history is something precious to us, and we don't care to have fools who are ignorant of our tradition and our history to pass off their ignorance as valid opinion.

That's a really good post, Danny, but it likely places you in the same position as me.

You'll have the bible thumpers against you on one side and the Atheists on the other.

That's a really good post, Danny, but it likely places you in the same position as me.

You'll have the bible thumpers against you on one side and the Atheists on the other.

Christianity does not exist because of 'the Bible'...it's actually the other way around...'the Bible' exists because of the Christian faith.

Christianity made some incredibly great strides during the 300 or so years before 'the Bible' even existed. There was no Bible like we think of a Bible today; there was no Old Testament and New Testament put together so somebody could say "the Bible says." Christianity was not born on the back of "the Bible says." The Jewish scriptures were not even combined with the New Testament documents until around 350 A.D..

Before the OT and NT were combined and titled 'The Bible', Christianity had already replaced the pantheon of Roman, Barbarian, and most of the Egyptian gods, and was the state religion of the Roman Empire...!

And no one had ever held in their hand 'the Bible'. The 1st, 2nd, and 3rd century Christians, who faced tremendous hardships, believed Jesus loved them *before* 'the Bible' told them so. They did not choose to follow Jesus because of an infallible Old Testament or a non-contradicting New Testament.

Many Christians feel compelled to defend 'the Bible' because to them, the only way to defend the Christian faith is to defend 'the Bible'. It is next to impossible to defend the entire Bible. Christianity does not hang by the thread of "the Bible tells me so."

I think the universe is held together by lunatic mums. Give her a hug from me.

That's a really good post, Danny, but it likely places you in the same position as me.

You'll have the bible thumpers against you on one side and the Atheists on the other.

In my experience Atheists seem to have a deep need to sermonize their intellect harder than any religious person does the Gospel. Must be a strong addiction as it is awful stupid to do it in Saudi Arabia. I can respect doubts on religion but it ends where ridicule begins, which is where many (not all) atheists start.

I don't deride the bible, Ricky........ that's what we have Antelope Sniper for.

But I don't consider it as "the foundation of my faith" either.

It seems like a lot of Christians view the bible almost the same way Muslims consider the Koran, and I see that as wrong. God didn't make the bible sacred........ people do.

I don't deride the bible, Ricky........ that's what we have Antelope Sniper for.

But I don't consider it as "the foundation of my faith" either.

It seems like a lot of Christians view the bible almost the same way Muslims consider the Koran, and I see that as wrong. God didn't make the bible sacred........ people do.

With the major exception being the Bible is God breathed, the rest are written by man. That's sort of a big deal.

Give God a chance. I see Him everywhere in nature. The birth of a child, in the grandeur of the Rocky Mountains, in the Deserts of the southwest, in the rivers and forests of the east, in the heavens at night, in the order of everything from the interval of the ocean waves, to the number of ears on a stalk of corn. This stuff didn't just happen.

God bless,

Jack

Beautifully stated jt402. Ideal campfire sentiment. Hope you will post more often.

Being a self appointed expert on any religion is a huge waste of brain cells, just like being an expert on witchcraft.

I know what you mean about the differences between the O T and the N T. Some of each were, I believe, definitely inspired by God.

It's just too obvious to miss a lot of political agenda in the writing of the Old Testament and in the writing AND selection of the New.

The O T Jews saw religion and government as being one and the same. Imagine the atrocities our present government could visit on the populace if all they had to do was say;"Thus saith the Lord" and that was the end of the matter.

A man can't fault Paul, a legalistic Jew, for being unable to accept the idea of a new type of "church" wherein Jesus would deal with His adherents directly, via the Holy Spirit, rather than thru a Priesthood or a body of Elders. So...... Paul gave us most all of our "theology".

As far as "selection" goes, I think it is telling that ONLY the KJV has the "and these Three are One." addition to the verse about The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit.

To insist that ALL the "bible" is without error and true in all respects is insulting to those portions that are deserving of that status.

The God that would depend on frail humans to transmit His wishes to all the rest of humanity would be a much smaller God than the one I know. THAT God would truly be "the Author of confusion".

Ironically, those to whom this statement most applies won't get it.

Marconites saw the Old and New testaments as belonging to two completely different religions.

From a literary standpoint, it would make sense to let the Gospels be the last four "books" of the O T and Acts be the beginning of the N T.

The Gospels would spell the end of Judaism with the arrival of the Messiah [unrecognized] and Acts of the Apostles would provide a basis for the Letters making up the "new replacement religion".

It is however a requirement of a Christian to be able to answer honest questions about their faith.

I'd say that might me true for a "Paul Christian" but certainly not a requirement for a "Jesus Christian".

From a literary standpoint, it would make sense to let the Gospels be the last four "books" of the O T and Acts be the beginning of the N T.

The Gospels would spell the end of Judaism with the arrival of the Messiah [unrecognized] and Acts of the Apostles would provide a basis for the Letters making up the "new replacement religion".

One is the fulfillment of the other. Nevertheless you can't take OT scriptures and apply them to us today. All the penalty of OT sins has been paid.We are not judged according to OT law and OT penalties have no bearing on us at all.

I don't think any Christian considers themselves self appointed experts. It is however a requirement of a Christian to be able to answer honest questions about their faith.

The fact that you would liken Christianity to witchcraft shows just how lost you are.

Give God a chance. I see Him everywhere in nature. The birth of a child, in the grandeur of the Rocky Mountains, in the Deserts of the southwest, in the rivers and forests of the east, in the heavens at night, in the order of everything from the interval of the ocean waves, to the number of ears on a stalk of corn. This stuff didn't just happen.

But many of the letters pre-date the Gosphels.

Give credit where credit is due. God is also in cancer, Katrina, Ebola, earthquakes and subsequent tsunamis, Alzheimer's Disease, drought, bubonic plaque, typhoid, cholera, influenza and Internet porn.

Probably NOT. Late dating the gospels is mainly due to NOT believing Jesus could forecast the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD.

It really makes no difference since the EVENTS related in the gospels occurred prior to the letters, so - still speaking from a literary standpoint - they should end the O T.

Right?

Ten pages. A little slow this go around.

Compare and contrast the character of the two gods in the Old, and New Testaments. The wrathful, vengeful God of the OT, is not of the same Character as Jesus Meek and mild in the NT.

Give credit where credit is due. God is also in cancer, Katrina, Ebola, earthquakes and subsequent tsunamis, Alzheimer's Disease, drought, bubonic plaque, typhoid, cholera, influenza and Internet porn.

You are reading what PEOPLE thought about God... in both instances.

They are still not reconciled.

God is gonna be God no matter what different people think about Him.

A man's view of God doesn't define God..... it defines the man.

Where does Paul quote the Gosphels, If they were written first, don't you think Paul would of known about then and quoted them?

As I recall, there was something of a rivalry going on, so why would he?

And... again.... what difference does it make as far as the chronology of the events?

Atheist = Non observant. Or: none so blind as them who refuse to see. Pick your poison

So you have observed a god?

Please elaborate.

God is seen through spiritual eyes. When you close your mind, you also close your spiritual eyes, which explains your condition.

A man can also fit himself with blinders so that he sees only a fragment of God. That fragment may be enough to obtain eternal salvation but deprives the man of God's help throughout his physical life. It's usually called "narrow minded".

Marconites saw the Old and New testaments as belonging to two completely different religions.

well, actually, now that you mention it.....

not many folks believe the Jews (taken as followers of the OT) will make it into heaven unless they change their ways, and follow the God of the NT.

God is seen through spiritual eyes. When you close your mind, you also close your spiritual eyes, which explains your condition.

A man can also fit himself with blinders so that he sees only a fragment of God. That fragment may be enough to obtain eternal salvation but deprives the man of God's help throughout his physical life. It's usually called "narrow minded".

They are the same God. OT Jews just don't accept Jesus. Without accepting Jesus there can be no salvation. Even the OT sacrifices were only representations of Jesus and his sacrifice.

To not accept Jesus as the sacrifice would be like a person only accepting counterfeit money while refusing the accept the gold which the real money was based on.It would be like doing this while everyone was trying to tell you that the money you would accept was counterfeit, showing you where and how it was made,and pleading with you to exchange it for gold while there was still time.