Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunter's Campfire Hey you athiests...

Sorry, AS. Paul and I once lived as you, but you haven't ever lived as we.

Or just maybe, and I can see it in the scriptures, God gave the earth and free will to man. Man allowed an enemy to usurp the earth and bring it into a state where man would suffer. God will not go back on his word and take the earth back,nor force the man to seek his help.

You might say then that bad things happen to Christians just as much as anyone. Yes, the average Christian will say a little prayer asking God to protect him. It only takes about 2 minuets. Then he will live his life just like the unsaved person and wonder why God allowed this terrible thing to happen to him.

Here's the way I see it:

Is it right to use *other* people's pain and suffering and injustice to draw *our own* conclusions about God...? Is it right to use other people's pain and suffering and injustice to build *our own* case against God...?

That's casting a pretty wide net.

If we have not walked in their shoes, then we don't know. We'd have to talk with each one of them, individually, about *their* pain and their suffering and their injustice to know how it affects their conclusions about God. For many, it might draw them closer to God, rather than push them away. If we use our own pain and suffering and injustice to draw our own conclusions about God...that's wholly different.

Hardly,

Anyway, you speak plainly, so......

You present no evidence that you are a seeker of God.

You seem blinded by your pride.

You do not have even the faintest comprehension of "faith." Do you have any idea about where faith comes from?

Your dog barks too loud. I wonder if you secretly desire knowledge of God but have never found it or if you simply take pride in railing against God. Those of us that know God see you as sad and tragic. There is no nobility in your cause.

TF

Atheists have one thing in common..... they prize their intellect over all else. It matters not that their I Q may be in the two digit range, it still defines them as far as any self-evaluation.

I've heard it thusly: " I may not be very smart but I'm smart enough not to believe in Santy Claus, the Easter bunny, or a big guy in the sky." THAT is the extent of their contribution to any conversation on the matter.

Others, such as A.S., being blessed [or cursed] with above average intelligence say: " Satisfy my intellect and I will believe....... show me evidence."

Since Man is the only animal capable of reasoning, they assume that any Creator would use that reasoning ability to reveal Himself. That assumption, which is far removed from Scientific methodology so prized by A.S., condemns them to eternal ignorance as far as the existence of their Creator.

Their minds are closed to an obvious truth. An Entity occupying another dimension will, of necessity, use a communication medium common to ALL dimensions.

S.E.T.I. uses math.

The Creator, being a Spiritual entity, sends a Spiritual message to the creatures He endowed with a like Spirit.

It only requires an open mind to receive the message. That puts ALL His creatures on an equal footing.

AS,

So, do you agree with this description of the atheistic position?

"“…if there is no God, then there is no difficulty reconciling nature and suffering. Nature (and this world we live in) is indifferent and unintelligent, and that leaves no one to stop the cruel deeds damaged minds or the devastation of natural disasters or disease.”

“The default position of the atheist is one of; ‘I do not believe due to the lack of evidence.” This is often followed by some declaration that a powerful God who lets these terrible things happen is not one to be believed in or worshipped anyway.

This is often followed by some statement that judges God to be not loving, not kind, vindictive and even cruel. The question is posed; “Why should I believe in such a God?”

One is not required to believe. If there is no God then what does it matter? “The suffering and death of children is just a cold fact of nature….nature is unthinking and indifferent.” Our emotional distress over this is simply some natural brain construct that causes temporary feelings of unease, or distress if the loss is close to some person; but that is of no consequence either. The suffering of a child does not really matter and death, of a child or loved one, is really nothing more than the winking off of a light that was no more than small ripple on the ocean of one planet in a universe of billions of planets.

If there is no God, then religion is at best a benign hoax. And who is to say that one religion or set of morals is better than another? We just have competing tribes bound together with some tragic set of common beliefs. It matters not to kill a child or an enemy if he is not one of “your tribe.”

All human endeavor is meaningless in the scope of the eternal universe.

clearly there's two groups of people in this world. one group divides everyone into one of two groups. the other group doesn't.

It's amusing but sad to hear from people who say they asked God to make them believe if He really does exist while really not wanting to be changed while regretting they then would have to give up their vices. They then proclaim to the world He didnt come into their heart after their disengenuos request, especially those who from the start were challenging Him, in order to be able to deny He exists due to anger over some previous mistreatment they have suffered.

Then, He does say many are called but few are chosen. It may be incorrect to assume that since one has not been chosen that it would be proof He doesnt exist.

Amen brother. Well done.

it seems many folks have experienced encounters of the fourth and fifth types. but a lot more folks have not.

R_H_Clark,



You seem to not notice Satan was already in the earth tempting Eve. Obviously God had already given him permission, but not authority. God did not give the earth or the world to man. Therefore man did/does have the authority to allow an enemy to usurp the earth. God, not Satan, is the One who told Eve, "'I will greatly multiply your pain...'" To the man God, not Satan, told him, and I paraphrase, "On your account I curse the universe." Consider These Scriptures:

Exodus 9:29
"Moses said to him, 'As soon as I go out of the city, I will spread out my hands to the Lord; the thunder will cease and there will be hail no longer, that you may know that the earth is the Lord’s.'"

1 Corinthians 10:26
"For the earth is the Lord’s, and all it contains."

Psalm 24:1
"The earth is the Lord’s, and all it contains,
The world, and those who dwell in it."



Even those who should know better wonder why God "allows" things. God does not allow things to come. He causes them,
"'so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.'" Matthew 5:45

A.S., like most Atheists, never wants to debate the existence of a "generic" Creator God.

He is only comfortable setting up "strawman" arguments against the idea that a Creator God visited earth in the form of Jesus of Nazareth, or that Abraham and his descendants claimed knowledge of that Creator God [imperfectly, but closer than any others of their time] and put their concepts in writing.

A lowly Priest nailed it over 500 years ago when a pilgrim came to him, seeking God; "He is within YOU, look not for him elsewhere."

Atheists will never seek PROOF of God in the only place it can be found... within themselves.

NOW we will hear from A.S...... he loves Ringman.

Here 'ya go Ringman.....

2 Corinthians 4:4New Living Translation (NLT)

4 Satan, who is the god of this world, has blinded the minds of those who don’t believe. They are unable to see the glorious light of the Good News. They don’t understand this message about the glory of Christ, who is the exact likeness of God.

Thank you, MR.Raider. I won't respond to Ringman since he only sees what he wants to see. I've tried for years.

Surly the Earth belongs to God, but he has given it to men for a time. Man gave it to Satan but God will take control again. Only then will all things be made right.

Those darned details keep getting in his way.

JGRaider,



If you use a Translation instead of a paraphrase you will discover, nowhere near your quoted Scripture does it say the god of this world is Satan. Nevertheless I used this very Scripture to "prove" to someone just like you tried to "prove" to me I was wrong and that Satan is the "god of this world." Then I did a thorough study of who owns and who is the God of this world. I discovered I was wrong. Before one reads this essay one needs to realize Jesus claims everything was handed over to Him years prior to Apostle Paul writing 2 Corinthians 4:4. If Jesus is correct then lots of people's interpretation of 2 Corinthians 4:4 is wrong. Consider this essay.

WHO IS THE OWNER AND GOD OF THIS WORLD?

Rich Coyle (541) 450-4170
richlovessuemsn.com
January 12, 1996

When this essay started life, it was two "essays". One was "Who is the God of this world?" The other was "Who owns this world?" One consisted of no more than a page of typed out Bible verses. The second one consisted of a page and a half of typed out verses. They were quite clear and to the point. For some readers they were not clear enough. I thought, "How does one improve on a page of Bible verses?" But then the next thought was, "If the person who is reading this page is not getting out of it what I am trying to convey, isn’t it an apparent waste of time? Therefore, I will put a story and some connecting anecdotes with the Scripture."

The anthropologist looks around the world and says to himself, "Obviously mankind instinctively believes in helpful spiritual beings." At the same time, the anthropologist could just as quickly determine that whether he is looking at a primitive culture or a modern society, his study subjects believe in evil forces as well. Possibly he thinks of himself as above all this; having been educated in a modern university. He may observe, "Modern man has not progressed. The ancient peoples tend to believe in many gods. Their industrialize relatives tend to believe in one God. I see that the ancient cultures have witch doctors and the industrially advanced societies have priests and pastors. What’s the difference?" Could it be that the "God of this world has blinded the minds" of all those not believing in Jesus? Would this not include all those who are educated in everything except That which can save them?
Christians have a tendency to accept what pastors say as gospel. Pastors tend to accept what their professors taught them without verifying it from God’s Word.

The following anecdote supports this. When I was a fairly new believer, I “proved” to a fellow new believer that Satan is the god of this world by opening the Word to 2 Corinthians 4:3-4 which teaches,
"If our Gospel is veiled, It is veiled to those who are perishing, in whose case the God of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving, that they might not see the light of the Gospel of the Glory of Christ, Who is the image of God."
We were guilty of using the fallacious logic that God would not deceive anyone. This experience proves just how necessary it is to “grow in grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.” Although God wants all us Christians to agree, this anecdote also proves that just because two of us do agree, we are not necessarily correct.

Later, I was introduced to the idea that Satan had gained ownership of this world from Adam. The fellow who was trying to teach me suggested that since Adam had disobeyed God's Word, he had by default given his ownership of the world to Satan. To many Christians this sounds reasonable. Perhaps you have had that same experience. But by the time I heard this I had spend uncountable hours in God’s Word so it just didn't sound right.

As Christians we need to realize we need to constantly “grow in grace and knowledge” and not accept what someone says because they are educated or because they have been a Christian longer than we have. I couldn't remember any Scripture to support the idea, but it just didn’t seem correct. There are some Passages that teach us man is to rule this world. In fact One infers that we humans are in charge enough to destroy the earth. It teaches us that there will be a time "to destroy those who destroy the earth." The Destroyer, it appears, will be Jesus. Revelation 11:15-18 state:

"And the seventh angel sounded; and there arose loud voices in heaven, saying, 'The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom or our Lord, and of His Christ; and He will reign forever and ever.' And the twenty-four elders, who sit on the thrones before God, fell on their faces and worshiped God, saying, 'We give you thanks, O Lord God, the Almighty , Who is and Who was, because You have taken Your great power and did reign. And the nations were enraged, and Your wrath came, and the time came for the dead to be judged, and the time to give their reward to Your bondservants the prophets and to the holy ones and to those who fear Your name, the small and the great, and to destroy those who destroy the earth.'"

"Destroy the earth" is not to be construed as blowing it up as a bomb blows up a factory during a war. Man's puny attempt at instant destruction pales in comparison to God's display of power. In the early eighties, Mount Saint Helens in Washington State erupted with a spectacular, sky filling violent explosion. The state fish and game department estimated there were at least a million animals killed. In one of Dr. Austin’s lecture, he said the amount of energy released by the volcano in one second was equivalent to the energy released by either of the atomic bombs dropped on Hiroshima or Nagasaki which ended World War II. The significant thing is that the eruption lasted nine hours! Some of the debris traveled for thousands of miles.

Dr. Steven Austin told us that Mount Saint Helen is not a very big volcano. Another geologist said that when Mount Mazama blew its top, and created Crater Lake in southern Oregon, it released a hundred times more energy than Mount Saint Helen. Man is more insidious. He destroys the earth slowly, almost imperceptibly with things like pollution; and by leaving open pit mines bare, instead of planting soil holding and animal attracting vegetation. Man, with all his God given knowledge and abilities, is not capable of fragmenting the world. God is saving it for Himself. His Word says, "the present heavens and earth by His Word are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment..." (2 Peter 3:7)

Because man is a degenerate sinful creature, his ability to regularly take One Verse and understand all that God has to say about that subject, is quite limited. When we use logic instead of Scripture, we most likely will come to a different conclusion than God's Word teaches. When I "proved" that Satan is the God of this world, and used the Bible, I was diametrically opposed to the Truth! Concepts in the Scripture are usually comprised of Several Verses: And all These may not be together. To build a defendable belief one has to get "a little here, a little there." (Isaiah 28:10) Fortunately God granted me "repentance leading to the knowledge of the Truth." (2 Timothy 2:22)

Before I became a Christian, I was usually a boss on the job. It seemed the Lord was putting me into a position of teaching others almost immediately after accepting Him. Perhaps it could be because I spent five hours a day, after work, reading the Word. Later I began listening to the New Testament in the grinding room at work. Learning God's Word is obeying His commandment: "Grow in grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ." (2 Peter 3:18) For me it was much more important than obeying a commandment. The Verse from James 3:1 warns, "Let not many become teachers, my brothers, knowing that as such we shall incur a stricter judgment." When you see a promise like that, and believe it, you take a serious look at everything you are teaching. Remember God's Word instructs us not to put a "new convert" in a position of respect "lest he becomes conceited and fall into the condemnation of the devil." (1 Timothy 3:6)

Beginning in Genesis, and reading through Revelation, caused some major changes in my beliefs. Occasionally there were complete reversals of previously held positions. Among them was the answer to "Who is the God of this world?" The question "Who owns the world?" was already one being considered.
Some appeal to the claim of Satan in Luke 4:6 while he was tempting Jesus as evidence that he could offer these things because he owned them. It says, "And the devil said to Him, 'I will give You all this domain and its glory; for it has been handed over to me, and I give it to whomever I wish.'" In our modern vernacular, the word is "NOT!" I am not denying that Satan has power. One just needs to read the book of Job to realize that. What I am saying, by the Truth of Jesus, is that he does not own almost everything. I get my strong opinion from John 8:44 where Jesus was speaking to some religious leaders. Jesus said,
"'You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature; for he is a liar, and the father of lies.'"
The Lord Jesus said there is no truth in the devil. How then can something the devil said be sighted as evidence of fact? Also in Matthew 11:27 we read,
“‘ All things have been handed over to Me by My Father; and no one knows the Son except the Father; nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.’”

As Bible believers one can sight, Isaiah 54:5b and Revelation 11:3-4 which read,
"'...your Redeemer is the Holy One of Israel, Who is called the God of all the earth.'" And "'And I will grant to My two witnesses, and they will prophesy for twelve hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth. These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth.'"

When I shared these and other verses with the word "earth" in them, most of my companions instructed me that "world" and "earth" are not synonyms. None of them had something to stand on except prejudice. As I read the Scripture, I could find no evidence to support their claim. While doing this research, I began to put together some thoughts that could be supported Scripturally. There is plenty of evidence that our Lord is indeed the God of this world and is the God of this earth.
Starting in the beginning of the Bible we come to Genesis 1:1. It says, "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." If we put the second half of verse thirty-one with the first verse of chapter two we find: "And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day. Thus the heavens and the earth were completed, and all their hosts." This then would include the angels; which includes Satan. Romans 4:17b shows us that God called "into being that which does not exist." We start with the idea that God is the Owner by default. When we get to Genesis 1:27-28, we find God does not give the world to man. He merely puts him in charge of it, as a superintendent might be in charge of a manufacturing plant. The Scripture says,
"And God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. And God blessed them; and God said to them, 'Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it; and rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky, and over every living thing that moves on the earth.'"

We do find something in the first chapter that God did give. In Genesis 1:29 is recorded that God gave man, and indeed all the animals also, plants for food. Then God said,
"'Behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed that is on the surface of all the earth, and every tree which has fruit yielding seed; it shall be food for you;'"
No carnivorous animals existed until sometime after Adam sinned. Romans 5:12 says, "Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin," showing us that no animals died until after sin entered the world. In fact the entire cosmos, and more, was subjected to entropy (the tendency to deteriorate). We learn from Romans 8:20 "that the creation was subjected to futility, not of its own will, but because of Him Who subjected it..." Does this show God did not give it to anyone, but had retained ownership?
Anyone who worked in a medium sized or smaller company knows the owner can and does override the superintendent. On an occasion when the LORD spoke to the Israelites, He told them, "'The land, moreover, shall not be sold permanently, for the land is Mine; for you are aliens and sojourners with Me.'" (Leviticus 25:23) Another place the Most High told them, "'Behold, to the LORD your God belong heaven and the highest heavens, the earth and all that is in it.'" (Deuteronomy 10:14) There are Many Scriptures that could be listed, but we will not belabor this point much longer. We will jump to about the middle of the Bible and then to the New Testament. I will include The New Testament Scripture so the reader can see there is no change. Remember, God said that He is "the same yesterday, and today, and forever." (Hebrews 13:8) From the middle we read, "The earth is the LORD's, and all it contains, the world, and those who dwell in it." (Psalm 24:1) Matthew 11:27 (used above) quotes Jesus’ claim to ownership: “All things have been handed over to Me by My Father; and no one knows the Son, except the Father; nor does anyone know the Father, except the Son and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal.” 1 Corinthians 10:26 tells us, "For the earth is the Lord's, and everything that is in it."
Perhaps someone might not know that The Lord of the New Testament is The LORD of the Old Testament. Consider this. "No one can say, 'Jesus is Lord,' except by the Holy Spirit." (1 Corinthians 12:3)

With a little documentation, we will display The Lord's name. In the Old Testament it is spelled LORD. In the New Testament it is spelled Lord. “What?” you say. “You want me to believe that Jesus is the LORD of the Old Testament?” Why, as a matter of fact, yes. God’s Word teaches: "No one can say, 'Jesus is Lord,' except by the Holy Spirit."(1 Corinthians 12:3) Exodus 3:4 reads in part, “...When the LORD saw that he turned aside to look, God called to...” Moses. In verse fourteen God informs him that the LORD’s name is “I AM WHO I AM”. The LORD said, “‘...you shall say to the children of Israel, “I AM has sent me...” On one occasion when Jesus was arguing with some Pharisees, He claimed unequivocally that He Himself is I AM Who spoke with Moses. John 8:58 quotes Jesus. “‘Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.’” Did the Pharisees understand His claim? Most definitely! They picked up stones to kill Him for blaspheming God. Perhaps someone might not know The Lord of the New Testament is The LORD of the Old Testament. His claim was clearly understood by them. It should be clear to us. The earth belongs to the Lord Jesus Christ. 1 Corinthians 10:26 tells us, "For the earth is the Lord's, and everything that is in it." He is “the God of this world.”

While working for a small furniture factory, the owner often asked me questions about God and His Word. Occasionally he asked something for which I could find an answer from God's Word. His question: “Why did Jesus speak in parables?” Of course He did that to make it easier for the ignorant masses to comprehend what He wanted them to learn, was my initial reaction. The next thought was more cautious, because of too many mistakes, and became my answer:
"I don't know, but since you brought it up, definitely I will get you a Biblically sound answer. Something that both of us can stand on for the rest of our lives."

Unless you have done a similar study, you are in for an immense surprise. The kind of surprise one would experience if he discovered the minister of his church was a drunken brawler on Saturday nights. If you are not open to new ideas, you will try to rationalize this information away. Although most of us have read the life of Christ straight from the Bible, we have not caught the details. I have opened the Bible and read aloud while someone watched, and have the listener say, “That’s your opinion.” Also, with someone watching and listening while I read, I have had the listener say, “You are wrong! God would not do that.”
In Mark 4:11-12 Jesus’ disciples asked Him the very same question that the factory owner asked me. Jesus’ answer follows.
"And He was saying to them, 'To you has been given the mystery of the kingdom of God; but those who are outside get everything in parables; in order that while seeing, they may see and not perceive; and while hearing, they may hear and not understand; lest they return again and be forgiven.'"

When I read this a huge question mark and exclamation mark fussed together on the T.V. screen of my mind. "This is fantastic!" I thought. "I have just been proven wrong by my own reading of God’s Word.” I was reminded by this of my erroneous “proving” years ago that Satan is the god of this world by using,
2 Corinthians 4:3-4,
"If our Gospel is veiled, It is veiled to those who are perishing, in whose case the God of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving, that they might not see the light of the Gospel of the Glory of Christ, Who is the image of God."

How could I have been a student of the Scripture more than a dozen years and not have seen This Jewel in Mark 4 before?" When I stated through the New Testament to discover why Jesus spoke in parable I got to Matthew 13:11-16. It is somewhat tempered, for me, in that Jesus was quoting Isaiah the prophet. Therefore I was not astounded. The passage is found in Matthew 13:11-16.
"And He answered and said to them, 'To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted. For whoever has, to him shall be given, and he shall have an abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has shall be taken away from him. Therefore I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. And for them the prophecy of Isaiah is being fulfilled, which says, "You will keep on hearing, but will not understand; and you will keep on seeing, but will not perceive; for the heart of this people has become dull, and with their ears they scarcely hear, and they have closed their eyes; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart and turn again, and I should heal them." But blessed are your eyes, because they see; and your ears, because they hear.'"
As you can see this Scripture is quite similar to the One in Mark. For me, it lacks the punch of the Mark excerpt. But when one puts it together with other like Scriptures, it is similar to throwing kerosene on a camp fire.

The thought that God evidently would intentionally prevent someone from seeing the Truth was almost overwhelming. To be sure the information is staggering. Fortunately for my sanity, I decided that I did not know anything until it was clearly taught by God's Word. And then no matter what I found, it was fine. How can one argue with God? Look at the Worldwide Flood recorded in Genesis. Most people call it Noah's Flood. It was not Noah's, it was God's. God killed all those little puppy doggies and cute little kittens and butterflies and dinosaurs and song birds singing beautiful songs. Whatever The Infinite Holy God wants to do is righteous. God does not start from "neutral" and go toward the "good" side of infinite. God is infinite! When He is "good", He is GREAT. And when He is "bad", He is TERRIBLE. The same God Who gave us life and love and families and Who promises eternal life, promised to send those who do not call on the name of His Son Jesus and obey Him to the Lake of Fire. What we think of as "good" or "bad" is a Holy God existing and acting beyond our comprehension.
Following are more Scriptures so the reader can see a few more "building blocks" for this belief.
Romans 11:7-8
"What then? That which Israel is seeking for, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened; just as it is written, 'God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes to see not and ears to hear not, down to this very day.'"
2 Thessalonians 2:11-12
"And for this reason God sends an activity of error so that they might believe what is false, in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the Truth, but took pleasure in wickedness."

We cannot leave this essay in what we humans would normally think of as negative. There is a beautiful Scripture for those who might think it is too late to turn to Jesus. God has given us a wonderful promise. 2 Corinthians 3:14&16 says,
"But their minds were hardened; for until this very day at the reading of the old covenant the same veil remains unlifted, because it is removed in Christ. But whenever a man turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.”

Curious.

What is 'success' to you "in these discussions" and by what metric do you base it on to make the claim that you do?

I know that those were some of Hitchens' milder utterances about Christians, but they serve the purpose noted - and serve it well. I very much appreciate well-turned phrases and excellent writing, but it takes much more than that for me to admire the writer. Enamored - of a writer? Hardly. I'm enamored of my wife and family, and God.