a 124 HST at 1200 out penetrates a 230HST at 950 in "wood, metal, etc.??
The current best performance in FBI/LE 9mm duty pistol ammo is the latest 147 GDHP, it has been thoroughly tested, and bests the 45 +p HST in every FBI test category. It has been tested and proven in use, with the latest FBI/LE approved handgun loads, a 45acp offers no advantage to the 9mm. If forced to shoot ball, it has an advantage. FBI/LE ammo, it has no performance gain with added baggage.
There is no magic pill. Repeated center mass hits, fast and accurate, until threat stopped. Regardless skill, obtaining multiple accurate hits at speed, is easier obtain with a 9mm vs 45acp.
Last edited by GaryVA; 01/07/17.
�I've never met a genius. A genius to me is someone who does well at something he hates. Anybody can do well at something he loves -- it's just a question of finding the subject.�
Well that's the title, but I think the discussion would be more appropriately "Why the .45 ACP offers the least advantage over all the other common self defense cartridges"
This is a subject that will sure enough start a Holy War, but It's interesting that 25 years ago this would be an absolutely preposterous discussion, as back then it was arguably "the best" of the lot. But things have changed and now, whether you agree with it or not, the discussion at least does have some merits.
I have always said I don't carry any gun because of the cartridge, but because of the gun. I know they all work, and I know they all work pretty much just as well. I just don't go in for, or find anything useful in worrying about one cartridge over another. Just like I don't find any meaningful difference in the .270 vs. .30-06 debate; waste of time.
Anyhow, enjoy the Holy War this thread is likely to kick off.
Reduced flash and blast vs 10mm. Lower likelihood of kabooms vs a .40 S&W.
Love the .45, would carry it more often but size and weight exclude it from my choice for concealed carry. With that in mind even with lower round capacity if you were to give me a choice in a gun fight I would pick the .45. Hollow points no matter how good do not always open up. The .45 is always gonna leave a .45 hole if it opens up or not. If I am not mistaken didn't Sanow and Marshall give the second spot with hydrashocks to it, behind the venerable 125 grain .357 ranking something in the mid 90 percentile "One shot stopper". I know this was back in the 90's and a lot has changed since then, but the .45 is still gonna leave a .45 hole. I have tried several combo's for .45 ccw even the small Kahr P45, and the light weight aluminum framed 1911's, they all seem to pull on my britches to much, and I was constantly jerking everything up. If it came down to it I would pickup my FNX .45 before I would a 9, does not mean I wouldn't use a 9, and carry a 9.
My fault for posting before I watched the video, I am at work and they had the video blocked, so I went to my PC and watched it. That guy is an idiot..............
The more cavernous the wound channel, the more room there is for internal bleeding, thus the faster the drop in human blood pressure and incapacitation.
Law enforcement has different needs than a Civilian with a carry permit. We are taught that using a firearm is a last resort. I can't imagine being in a situation where flat trajectory is an advantage. What I want is a way for me to protect myself from a guy with a knife or getting knocked down and kicked in the head.
I like to do my hunting BEFORE I pull the trigger! There is only one kind of dead, but there are many different kinds of wounded.
The more cavernous the wound channel, the more room there is for internal bleeding, thus the faster the drop in human blood pressure and incapacitation.
But there's a difference between paper "more" and living tissue "more". A difference in bullet diameter of .60 to .70 looks significant on paper, and the number looks even greater as a % increase. But in living tissue, it's no where near enough of a difference that it would decrease incapacitation time from hypovolemic shock. Again, you would have to have some extreme/rare instance where by some miracle a .10 change in diameter saved the day, and I would say the odds on that would be a number with a LOT of digits..
I wonder if the military will return to the much maligned 9mm FMJ, for it's poor performance on the battle field. Or will they choose a larger caliber either .40 or .45 FMJ.
That is where the SBR, carbine, and shotgun come into play.
�I've never met a genius. A genius to me is someone who does well at something he hates. Anybody can do well at something he loves -- it's just a question of finding the subject.�
Law enforcement has different needs than a Civilian with a carry permit. We are taught that using a firearm is a last resort. I can't imagine being in a situation where flat trajectory is an advantage. What I want is a way for me to protect myself from a guy with a knife or getting knocked down and kicked in the head.
Please explain the difference in need.
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
At some point you begin to think that official handgun cartridge selection is like the latest diet fads. 9 no good, 10 good, no wait short 10 good, no wait 9 good. Personally I like the 45 ACP and the 9mm but the 45 does not ring my ears as bad should I have to dispatch a pig, copperhead or hole digging turkey egg eating armadillo under foot. Naturally I only use cheap 230 grain ball ammo for these chores. I did find that the 230 grain GD would not shoot through a pigs head at almost contact range, but the pig stopped moving, I saw no exit.
They all have well designed self defense ammo available today, so all could be good.
I carried a 1911 around the farm, checking fences, stand sights, etc. Would plink with the 45 using ball. Kept running into the same sow and cubs. Decided to look for a std vel flat nose fmj load to plink, that would drive straight through her skull, should she decide to bowl me over. Winchester marketed a 1911 practice load that was flat nosed. I tested it against ball, shooting through skulls and shoulders of cattle, pails of water, wet phonebooks, etc. It worked, where ball would not work.
Not a dedicated hunting load, but great plinker that penetrates.
Last edited by GaryVA; 01/08/17.
�I've never met a genius. A genius to me is someone who does well at something he hates. Anybody can do well at something he loves -- it's just a question of finding the subject.�