Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Deer Hunting Trying to Legislate Antler Restrictions into NY

Is it a high or low fence operation?

Both.


Deer would not be in anywhere near the numbers in parts of Texas if it wasn't for the artificial feeding of them. They truly are livestock.

The problem with this thread, is the same with many threads on the 'Fire and it can be summed up with one word 'Provincialism'

1. I don't harvest, I KILL.

2. In case you ain't up on history and biology, animals killing animals to eat ain't interfering, it's called survival.

I appreciate you in conversations like this because we can get somewhere instead of the kindergarten name calling.

Answer for you, not nearly as many. And if we didn't have fire control like we have had, not nearly as many as the forbs line of brush and shelter would burn off quite often.

I doubt we would have half of what we have if that likely.

And you've reminded me of the same with livestock, which coming with that background, says that if we went back to not monkeying with the pastures, you could not have the numbers of them either. Makes sense.

Run farms without fertilizer or herbicide/pesticides, harvests would be way down.

The problem with a lot of that is too many people. May be the whole problem in a nutshell period actually. Likely.

We could go back to no management of deer like we had when we bought the place in the 60s. 90 or so acres of thicket, not a single deer. It was not until we started trying like crazy to bring back food for wildlife, not just clear perfect weed free cattle only pastures that we had some luck.

But as you well know, I'll do it my way, you do it yours. Works out in the end I suspect. Don't even much care if you claim to kill, and claim I harvest. We are both still eating deer in the end.

What would I have done 100 years ago? Seems a fair question. Wouldn't have had time or money to manage, would have simply had to survive with what was there. I can sure recall Dad talking about the fact there were no deer around his home place, or almost any racoons etc... they were all harvested without care to the end results.

Somewhere in there has to be? a happy medium?

But you're still talking about man interfering.

The fact that you even use the term "harvest" leads one to believe it's more of a manage or farming type operation that flat out killing to eat.

You kill spikes because you don't want them in "your" herd, because you want to see big bucks. Why aren't you shooting the does that are producing those spikes?

I've seen deer that were spikes turn into beautiful, huge, fully mature deer with a rack ANY hunter would be tickled to have.

Ok, I'll call it killing from here on out.

I've not seen the same with spikes, though as noted, I tend to view a spike for at least until the 2nd set of antlers before I take a guess if that was age/genetics/food/drought etc... he has not had a chance to breed by then anyway.

So to take man totally out of the formula what does that require?(damn that sounded like gus..) kill whatever whenever? Would that be sustainable without SOME type of rules?

It actually would be nice if it could go that way, but to many people for that to happen IMHO.

Espeically here, if you told the mexican legal and illegal to have at it, we'd have nothing left. Much like the russians in alaska.

Killing, culling, harvesting, plucking...I don't care what you call it. Youre not seeing past the fact of what you're trying to do is management, not just shooting for food. You're doing it to change what you're looking at, hunting, photographing. Call it whatever you want, it's the same thing.

but what you're doing isn't forced upon the other hunters by law. That is what I have an issue with. As long as you own the land and are free to do what you want it
doesn't affect me.

I am, you are totally correct. For teh betterment of the herd IMHO.

Those that just use and don't care, how does that help anything in the end? Or do we just not care, use it until its gone and then what?

Anyway your rules are already set. Dates and kill limits. AR are only another rule. Which should only be put into effect if the herd needs it. If the herd is healthy, why worry?

The biologists I talk to locally, tell you ARs are the only way they can write into law something that should benefit a herd numbers and health wise, and along the way its obvioulsy going to mean a higher change of larger deer wtih larger antlers. A byproduct if you will.

If you are simply saying, enough rules already, by telling me when/how and how many, and I don't want more, I just want to kill something, anything, and go home, then that works too, unless its detrimental to the herds long term longevity.

Am I wrong there? Hell I"m human, 10 years from now I may agree with shoot anything and everything you want.

Oops, there I go, KILL anything I want. LOL

I have been hunting in PA for almost 40 years. Deer season used to be days of people in large parties of up to 25 people driving every patch of cover you could find. Usually resulted in seeing 100 doe or more in a day and you may see a spike or a 6 point to shoot at. A 100 inch deer was a real trophy. This is no exaggeration in decent farm country. Does season was a seperate 2-3 day season at the end of the 2 week buck season. Guys shot at everything that moved, it was almost comical at the amount of shooting that took place. It was a war zone and the deer herd was a joke and the habitat was stripped of everything within a deers reach.

Gary Alt (Wildlife Biologist) proposed changing the regulations with the goal of getting the deer numbers back in check with what the habitat would support and getting some age structure in the buck population. It is better for the deer. He based it on the science of whitetail management. People threw a fit but it passed. The herd has been brought back in check and the habitat is coming back. The age structure is normal and you have no idea what is going to show up. People are seeing and shooting deer as good as anywhere in the country. I am not a trophy hunter but It is much more fun hunting a normal deer herd. People still bitch because they don't see 100+ deer a day. You will never make everyone happy as people have different ideas of what is ideal. Let the biologists tell us what is best for the deer and the habitat. Everything Gary Alt said would happen has happened.

rost495, I think you have confused a bunch of things.
Texas ain't New York or Pennsylvania. You might be as happy about that as I am.
Got 2 dairy farms in the family and grew up on one. The male of the species is considered relatively insignificant in a dairy herd. This is also true in whitetails. Big bucks or big bulls are more freaks rather than indicators of the healthy herd you keep mentioning.
Some of simply want to go hunting with a reasonable opportunity to find game. The decision to shoot is mine.
Stopping here.

I've never had a buck that was worse or horrible compared to any other deer regardless of age or gender....all about field care and cooling the carcass properly.....then processing your animal correctly. If you just qtr a deer without removing the glands in certain areas, you're sure to get a schitty taste.

Great, but how is that attributed to MANDATORY APR's?

It sounds like you had a "healthy" deer herd, just no big bucks.

How many times does it have to be said, that this wasn't done to appease the horn hunters, or to grow big bucks. It was done for the health of the herd, and the habitat. Why is that so hard to understand?

The habitat and the herd will keep each other in check, its been happening since the beginning. It sounds like there were plenty of deer to shoot, I don't see a downside to the freezer?

The answer I was looking for is rampant disease, emaciated deer, herd decimated.....none of that there.

The only certainty on the 'Fire is provincialism.

That habitat doesn't keep the herd in check. They can out screw the habitat. Then you end up with more Deer than the habitat could support in the long term. They died off in large numbers during a hard winter. Have a soft winter and more lived into spring than the summer food supply. Their numbers were making it hard for the wood to regenerate. The wood regenerates in the spring also and too many Deer stunts the ability for it to do so. But, "Summertime and the living is easy." Winter was the squeeze and there wasn't enough food for many to come out of winter into fawn drop time healthy.

They have a lot of people in Africa but they have a food-habitat-problem and many are not all that healthy.


How many families can you feed on your salary before many start having health issues? Deer are not any different than people. Get too many living on a limited food budget and you start having malnutrition health issues. They die off quicker, they have health issues and don't produce healthy offspring. Healthy off spring often produce a nice rack. Hmmm, does that apply to Deer also. Good chance.


Now, where I fall out with QDM is when they advocate artificially keeping the numbers higher than the habitat can support. Which may be the dirty little secret of QDM. They are not going to let the known big boys die over the squeeze, so they hit them with the juice during the winter. "Only" because they want to hit them with a bullet come fall. That doesn't happen in the big woods of Pa and NY.

We should go to a different topic in a way.

Differing areas have different needs. The management than many don't want, has to be done differently to fit an area.

Its been rumored here locally, that if anyone much said we want to drop our local regs, its done what it needed to, brought the herd back to better numbers and shown killers that if you are a bit selective, then you end up with more, and healthier, and yes often larger racked deer.

I've not heard anyone ask for the rules to be removed. I'm sure some out there do wnat it though.

Interesting thing is removing the rules at this point would not change things much I dont' think. As noted its had its effect in 2 ways already.

Im the guilty one here I suspect for dragging this OT< my point was to teh OP folks, that dont' disregard an attempted improvement until you give it a while to see.

We had other things going on here, first it was doe days, then doe weekends, then doe weeks. They did nothing to help and were washed out after a few years.

The real question should be are folks satisfied with whats what, and is that the majority of folks? If so then I should have to abide by whatever the rules are.

And unless you have large tracts of private land, then you should not be able to opt out.

Heck I suspect that what works in one part of TX may or may not work in other parts at all. Same can be said of the US as a whole.

Me, I'd be just as happy killing a handful of does every year for the freezer as anything else personally. I really like watching the bucks around the house all year long. Something about that, but I digress.

Yours are different than ours then. Its like a lot of things though, animals differ from area to area, diet differs etc...

I've been able to smell a few bucks. A few doe too, some deer just taste different/stronger and have a different hue to the meat and even the odor.

We've even had hogs that you can smell em while cooking em, the taste is fine, but the odor would run you out of the house.

I don't feed the meat to the dogs though.... well actually but its at the table while we are eating CFS etc...

Nilgai are another example. Some of the best meat I've ever eaten. And then I got a batch from a friend that was horrible. Talked with the guide and he said he told them it was to late in the spring, once the juisache greens to not shoot them for X days or months they would be bitter. Boy he wasn't wrong there.

Javelina are same example. Folks eat them in AZ. Claim they are great. I've tried every last way here in TX. Even the folks of mexican descent generally will refuse them. They are not picky generally either. Finally talked to a local a few weeks ago and he said if you can shoot a striped piglet that just hit the ground they are the only ones you can eat.

And fwiw care of game in our instance is not an issue, we know how, and do right... I do know why other friends of mine don't like deer period though...

First it was buck only, then it was doe for a weekend here or there, then it was doe all season, then it was one buck only, then one buck only with 4 points per side.

Tomorrow it will be one buck only, 4 points, 16" spread and only on Tuesday and Saturday


And so it goes, till it will be f*ck you, you don't need no stinking deer rifle.


I know Jeff is happy with blasting only a few doe, I understand that, but again you ain't allowed to blast a handful of doe in many parts of NY and now you want point restrictions.


We keep getting further and further away from what hunting is.