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Originally Posted by mathman
Originally Posted by BOWSINGER
It is all just a matter of taste...


And some have poor, and some have none. grin


Well said.


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It always amazes to watch people play this "mines great, yours sucks" game, be it bourbon, wine, beer or most anything else.

I annually sit as a judge for the VinoChallenge International. The competition evaluates 1500+ wines from all over the world. The makers and brokers submit the wines in hopes of earning a "medal" to use as recognition of their quality. The judges are wine makers, people in the wine and spirits industry, and invited others. These are by and large knowledgable people with discerning palates. We sit in groups of 5-7 judges per table, and we evaluate wines in flights of 6. We are urged to judge their merits and awards bronze, silver, gold, or a rare double gold if and as the wines merit.

This alway brings a point of disagreement among the judges. One camp if firmly in the "a great wine stands on its own regardless of its price". I am in the other camp that says "My expectations for a $100 bottle wine are far different from a $10 bottle of wine". I want to know the price point, and some other s don't. If we are tasting $8 Italian Pinot Gris, and I find one that I'd gladly have another glass, then it rates a medal. If I'd seek it out and buy it myself, then that's silver. If I'd want a case, then that's gold for sure. On the other hand, if we are doing classified growth Bordeaux, I expect I'd enjoy most each and every one of them down to the last drop. To get a medal, they better sit either as a classic example of the style, and/or shine above the others.

I was judging just 3 weeks ago, and one guy on our panel would not award a medal to anything. On an 10 point scale, he was giving 4s and 5s. Criteria for a medal starts at 7. Nothing impressed him. So to make conversation, I asked him what he'd had recently that liked. He proceeds to pull out his phone and show me pictures of labels he's been tasting and it is a Hall of Fame of the best wines in the world. Cheval Blanc, Opus One, Penfolds Grange, LaTour, and a dozen others that mere mortals can never afford or would ever choose to drop hundreds of dollars retail on. I flatly told him that if that's his standard, no wine that we were judging would ever measure up to that. He kind of shrugged, but did loosen up his criteria after that.

People can be label snobs about things other than food and drink. I was getting into the audiophile scene back in the 1980s, and that bunch hung on every word from Julian Hirsch in his magazine reviews. He'd tests amps and speakers and turntable cartridges (yeah, going way back) and record his electronic measurements and readings and then rate the equipment. Audiophiles are as snobby as wine people when it comes to labels. As the snobbery seemed to be getting out of hand, Hirsch wrote an article that basically said while looking at the numbers is useful and fun, it's all about how it sounds to you in your living room. If it sounds good, then it is good. Period.

That goes for bourbon, scotch, wine or anything like it. If it tastes good to you, it is good - for you. I like blondes and you dig redheads? More power to you. Doesn't make you wrong, just leaves more blondes for me.

Blind tests are the best. You don't know what's what and can let your taste buds do the talking without prejudice.

There is no big skill in finding a good $100 bottle of Napa Cab or single barrel bourbon. The treasure is finding the $20 bottle that floats your boat. They are out there, and what you find as great, someone else might not like. So be it. You snobs need to get off your high horse and believe it.


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Good post, Jeff, since we were/are on the subject of bourbon, your "expectations" POV is exactly the way I approach it. I EXPECT a 100 dollar bottle of whisky to deliver, but I love it when I'm surprised by a twenty dollar bottle meets or exceeds expectations, otherwise, I would not have discovered good bourbons (like Wild Turkey 101 for instance or Buffalo Trace which I also like and it's fairly inexpensive.


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I call it square. If it's good I call it good. I'm impressed by flavor, not the label. If it's inexpensive and good that's even better.

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I was talking to a bourbon collector a while back that had, if I recall, 500 bottles in his collection. I asked him what his favorite one was and he answered Wild Turkey 101.


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I think the mines great yours sucks game is silly, but I don't discount the value of others input and grading. I don't mind trying a few different options to clarify to my palate what I prefer.

Whether we're talking say $25-40 bottles, $50-100 or whatever range, I do see a value in narrowing the search down. I try and simplify my search by making three broad categories for a given range, quite nice (will buy it again), meh (take it or leave it), blah (I regret buying it). I don't expect a $25 bottle to drink like a $100 bottle, but I do expect every $100 bottle to make me say wow. The reality is not every $100 bottle is going to trip my trigger and I'd rather not spend $100 to find that out.

What it comes down to for me is finding something that will stand on it's own two or three fingers served neat and sipped. I don't mind drinking an affordable bourbon, but I don't expect to have to drink something that has to be adulterated to make it drinkable. I'm looking for flavors that are distinct and balanced, and there is a bit of bite without being harsh. Quite nice on my scale achieves that balance, meh has muted flavors, blah is unbalanced or harsh. I will gladly accept others input to avoid sampling the blah's, as well as trying to find another quite nice option.

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Originally Posted by Timbermaster
I was talking to a bourbon collector a while back that had, if I recall, 500 bottles in his collection. I asked him what his favorite one was and he answered Wild Turkey 101.


I prefer the input of a bourbon drinker to a bourbon collector.

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It's always funny to me how these kinds of threads will start out as fun and somewhere down the road turn into a bashing. Never ceases to amaze me. Personally, I find it interesting hearing other people's opinions on something I also enjoy. I'll often get a hmmm, maybe I'll try that kind of thought.

There's never anything wrong with liking a particular brand of Bourbon, or Scotch, or rifle. How some people find a way to turn the fun into a bashing is beyond me.

To toss in a little funny, one of my ex-gf's had a fondness for Wild Turkey 101. She was a dive instructor, horse lover, and outdoors person. I never had a problem picking up a bottle on the way over. It somehow made her... energetic. smile


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saw someone mention Van Winkle.

Had a chance to taste it when a guy I work with broke open a bottle of it to celebrate his birthday.

I'm not a bourbon guy. Just feels like when I drink its eating away my stomach lining, but people that were with us raved about it.

The wife has 2 more trips to finish out her Kentucky Bourbon trail. Her and her crowd are fans of Buffalo Trace variations. I have a bottle of Eagle Rare on the shelf collecting dust and a Wild Turkey Honey that we nip on for special occasions.

I used to live just a couple of miles from the Wild Turkey distillery. You could smell it in the mornings. That was nice.

Then I moved to Frankfort down the road from the Ancient Age distillery. That smell was horrible. It was like waking up in a frat house every morning after the party.

Last edited by KFWA; 11/01/17.

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Originally Posted by hatari
It always amazes to watch people play this "mines great, yours sucks" game, be it bourbon, wine, beer or most anything else.

I annually sit as a judge for the VinoChallenge International. The competition evaluates 1500+ wines from all over the world. The makers and brokers submit the wines in hopes of earning a "medal" to use as recognition of their quality. The judges are wine makers, people in the wine and spirits industry, and invited others. These are by and large knowledgable people with discerning palates. We sit in groups of 5-7 judges per table, and we evaluate wines in flights of 6. We are urged to judge their merits and awards bronze, silver, gold, or a rare double gold if and as the wines merit.

This alway brings a point of disagreement among the judges. One camp if firmly in the "a great wine stands on its own regardless of its price". I am in the other camp that says "My expectations for a $100 bottle wine are far different from a $10 bottle of wine". I want to know the price point, and some other s don't. If we are tasting $8 Italian Pinot Gris, and I find one that I'd gladly have another glass, then it rates a medal. If I'd seek it out and buy it myself, then that's silver. If I'd want a case, then that's gold for sure. On the other hand, if we are doing classified growth Bordeaux, I expect I'd enjoy most each and every one of them down to the last drop. To get a medal, they better sit either as a classic example of the style, and/or shine above the others.

I was judging just 3 weeks ago, and one guy on our panel would not award a medal to anything. On an 10 point scale, he was giving 4s and 5s. Criteria for a medal starts at 7. Nothing impressed him. So to make conversation, I asked him what he'd had recently that liked. He proceeds to pull out his phone and show me pictures of labels he's been tasting and it is a Hall of Fame of the best wines in the world. Cheval Blanc, Opus One, Penfolds Grange, LaTour, and a dozen others that mere mortals can never afford or would ever choose to drop hundreds of dollars retail on. I flatly told him that if that's his standard, no wine that we were judging would ever measure up to that. He kind of shrugged, but did loosen up his criteria after that.

People can be label snobs about things other than food and drink. I was getting into the audiophile scene back in the 1980s, and that bunch hung on every word from Julian Hirsch in his magazine reviews. He'd tests amps and speakers and turntable cartridges (yeah, going way back) and record his electronic measurements and readings and then rate the equipment. Audiophiles are as snobby as wine people when it comes to labels. As the snobbery seemed to be getting out of hand, Hirsch wrote an article that basically said while looking at the numbers is useful and fun, it's all about how it sounds to you in your living room. If it sounds good, then it is good. Period.

That goes for bourbon, scotch, wine or anything like it. If it tastes good to you, it is good - for you. I like blondes and you dig redheads? More power to you. Doesn't make you wrong, just leaves more blondes for me.

Blind tests are the best. You don't know what's what and can let your taste buds do the talking without prejudice.

There is no big skill in finding a good $100 bottle of Napa Cab or single barrel bourbon. The treasure is finding the $20 bottle that floats your boat. They are out there, and what you find as great, someone else might not like. So be it. You snobs need to get off your high horse and believe it.


Great Post - I'm always on the lookout for that amazing bourbon, that amazing wine that is $20. For Bourbon, It's Weller's and it's been a while since I've found and amazing bottle of wine for a bargain. Any suggestions?



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Originally Posted by WyColoCowboy
Originally Posted by hatari
It always amazes to watch people play this "mines great, yours sucks" game, be it bourbon, wine, beer or most anything else.

I annually sit as a judge for the VinoChallenge International. The competition evaluates 1500+ wines from all over the world. The makers and brokers submit the wines in hopes of earning a "medal" to use as recognition of their quality. The judges are wine makers, people in the wine and spirits industry, and invited others. These are by and large knowledgable people with discerning palates. We sit in groups of 5-7 judges per table, and we evaluate wines in flights of 6. We are urged to judge their merits and awards bronze, silver, gold, or a rare double gold if and as the wines merit.

This alway brings a point of disagreement among the judges. One camp if firmly in the "a great wine stands on its own regardless of its price". I am in the other camp that says "My expectations for a $100 bottle wine are far different from a $10 bottle of wine". I want to know the price point, and some other s don't. If we are tasting $8 Italian Pinot Gris, and I find one that I'd gladly have another glass, then it rates a medal. If I'd seek it out and buy it myself, then that's silver. If I'd want a case, then that's gold for sure. On the other hand, if we are Terraza Melbecdoing classified growth Bordeaux, I expect I'd enjoy most each and every one of them down to the last drop. To get a medal, they better sit either as a classic example of the style, and/or shine above the others.

I was judging just 3 weeks ago, and one guy on our panel would not award a medal to anything. On an 10 point scale, he was giving 4s and 5s. Criteria for a medal starts at 7. Nothing impressed him. So to make conversation, I asked him what he'd had recently that liked. He proceeds to pull out his phone and show me pictures of labels he's been tasting and it is a Hall of Fame of the best wines in the world. Cheval Blanc, Opus One, Penfolds Grange, LaTour, and a dozen others that mere mortals can never afford or would ever choose to drop hundreds of dollars retail on. I flatly told him that if that's his standard, no wine that we were judging would ever measure up to that. He kind of shrugged, but did loosen up his criteria after that.

People can be label snobs about things other than food and drink. I was getting into the audiophile scene back in the 1980s, and that bunch hung on every word from Julian Hirsch in his magazine reviews. He'd tests amps and speakers and turntable cartridges (yeah, going way back) and record his electronic measurements and readings and then rate the equipment. Audiophiles are as snobby as wine people when it comes to labels. As the snobbery seemed to be getting out of hand, Hirsch wrote an article that basically said while looking at the numbers is useful and fun, it's all about how it sounds to you in your living room. If it sounds good, then it is good. Period.

That goes for bourbon, scotch, wine or anything like it. If it tastes good to you, it is good - for you. I like blondes and you dig redheads? More power to you. Doesn't make you wrong, just leaves more blondes for me.

Blind tests are the best. You don't know what's what and can let your taste buds do the talking without prejudice.

There is no big skill in finding a good $100 bottle of Napa Cab or single barrel bourbon. The treasure is finding the $20 bottle that floats your boat. They are out there, and what you find as great, someone else might not like. So be it. You snobs need to get off your high horse and believe it.


Great Post - I'm always on the lookout for that amazing bourbon, that amazing wine that is $20. For Bourbon, It's Weller's and it's been a while since I've found and amazing bottle of wine for a bargain. Any suggestions?

Terraza Melbec, Argentinian .


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Angels Envy is a favorite as is Four Roses Single Barrel.
WL Weller reserve is a solid choice that isn't expensive and readily available around here.
Elmer T. Lee is the best bourbon for the money in my opinion. Sadly, it's tough to find these days.

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Couple of on sale pickups this afternoon. Total < $65.

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Slaves get what they need. Free men get what they want.

Rehabilitation is way overrated.

Orwell wasn't wrong.

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Originally Posted by 458 Lott
I think the mines great yours sucks game is silly, but I don't discount the value of others input and grading. I don't mind trying a few different options to clarify to my palate what I prefer.

Whether we're talking say $25-40 bottles, $50-100 or whatever range, I do see a value in narrowing the search down. I try and simplify my search by making three broad categories for a given range, quite nice (will buy it again), meh (take it or leave it), blah (I regret buying it). I don't expect a $25 bottle to drink like a $100 bottle, but I do expect every $100 bottle to make me say wow. The reality is not every $100 bottle is going to trip my trigger and I'd rather not spend $100 to find that out.

What it comes down to for me is finding something that will stand on it's own two or three fingers served neat and sipped. I don't mind drinking an affordable bourbon, but I don't expect to have to drink something that has to be adulterated to make it drinkable. I'm looking for flavors that are distinct and balanced, and there is a bit of bite without being harsh. Quite nice on my scale achieves that balance, meh has muted flavors, blah is unbalanced or harsh. I will gladly accept others input to avoid sampling the blah's, as well as trying to find another quite nice option.




458, Try the 92 Clyde. I think you'll like it. $36 at Publix' small liquor store tonight.

P.S. - that is my test, too. I may mix it once in a great while, but the 2-3 finger test neat tells me all I need to know.

Last edited by local_dirt; 11/01/17. Reason: drink it neat test

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Originally Posted by local_dirt
Couple of on sale pickups this afternoon. Total < $65.

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I need your address.....I should be there in about three days, maybe four tops.

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Originally Posted by dvdegeorge
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I've got a little over half a bottle left. My opinion....meh. I think overpriced, too. But I'll definitely drink the rest!


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Originally Posted by FieldGrade
Originally Posted by local_dirt
Couple of on sale pickups this afternoon. Total < $65.

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]


I need your address.....I should be there in about three days, maybe four tops.



No worries, FG. Gotcha covered. Mannlicher and I just drove out to WY for Keith's antelope hunt and it took us about 3 1/2 days from Gainesville, FL. My place is about 336 mi farther, so better plan on 4. smile


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Orwell wasn't wrong.

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Originally Posted by local_dirt
Originally Posted by FieldGrade
Originally Posted by local_dirt
Couple of on sale pickups this afternoon. Total < $65.

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]


I need your address.....I should be there in about three days, maybe four tops.



No worries, FG. Gotcha covered. Mannlicher and I just drove out to WY for Keith's antelope hunt and it took us about 3 1/2 days from Gainesville, FL. My place is about 336 mi farther, so better plan on 4. smile


Crap..... I'm 884mi from keith's place. Maybe I'll just go buy a couple of Jugs and have one in your honor.

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