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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jul 2006
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Hey Money--I know these facts. At 715am, 2 kids were shot dead in their dorm. The shooter was on the loose. He(the shooter) ravaged another academic hall 2 hours later. In between, no warnings or alerts to the kids. In August of last year, some POS wasted a campus cop(I believe).Once that shooting took place, the school was put into major lock-down. That procedure vacated this go around.
What more is needed to know?
The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails.
William Arthur Ward
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In a situation like this it would seem only three things would make him quit.
1. Runs out of ammo.
2. Law enforcement arrival makes him dead either by their hand or quicker by his.
3. Subdued by potential victims who refused to be shot without a fight.
Sadly none happened soon enough.
Mike J
Character is defined by what you do when no one is looking.
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
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did you see where he had the words Ismail AX on the inside of his arm in red ink..........Blake
People sleep peaceable in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.
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Campfire Regular
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OP
Campfire Regular
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This was an absolute failure of the police to do their job and protect the citizens. Believe it, it goes no farther than that. 340wby, your thinking is all wrong here. The people FAILED to PROTECT THEMSELVES. If you want to wait for the Police to protect you, this is what happens. No YOU'RE all wrong the people are NOT ALLOWED to protect themselves.
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I think its way too early to cast any blame except on the shooter. I do know that its the admin of the campus that has full control. I can draw upon my personal experience that we (LEO) constantly bump heads with school administrators on not following our advice and not following protocol established by them following responses to weapon complaints or bomb threats.
Always too easy to blame it on the police.
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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You ain't getting an argument from me Sean.
Erring on the side of caution and calling off all campus classes would have emptied the classrooms at least. OK, what would be appropriate, empty the classrooms, or lock all the students in the classrooms? What is meant by "a lock down" I can see where either answer might bring you condemnation depending on how things pan out.
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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Two beer walk, about 1/2 mile.
Why wasn't the alert system used? That's a $64,000,000.00 question.
Responsibility for that, and for not locking the campus down, lies at the feet of the University President. OK, you could be right, I'll be interested to hear his take on why he handled the situation the way he did. It is hard for be to believe in the face of a double homicide he would have taken the situation in a caviler manner. I'm betting most involved evaluated this as an isolated domestic situation and were taken off guard as I probably would have been...but then again I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed.
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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A lock down Barkoff would have cancelled the classes post announcement. Meaning, a 730am lock-down would have cancelled all classes thereater. The lock-down also implements armed security to all school buidings,especially dorms and attended academic halls.A lock-down would have conceivably kept the shooter contained into his dorm hall after the 715am shooting isolating the shooter further for scrutiny by others also locked down. Also, generally after a lock-down, armed security and LEO begin doing a floor by floor inspection.
Guarantees?...Of course not....better chances???????
The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails.
William Arthur Ward
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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I'm betting most involved evaluated this as an isolated domestic situation and were taken off guard
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Ain't no doubt in my mind.
The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails.
William Arthur Ward
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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Cossatotjoe However, questions still need to be asked. I have seen video of cops hunkered down behind a car door while wearing all the latest Ninja gear as pistol shots can be heard. Inexcusable in my opinion.
thats exactly what I was wondering. On the student made cell phone video, it was astounding that the cops were hunkered down, and hearing the shooting. Why on earth did at least one of them not storm the building?
Sam......
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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A lock down Barkoff would have cancelled the classes post announcement. Meaning, a 730am lock-down would have cancelled all classes thereater. The lock-down also implements armed security to all school buidings,especially dorms and attended academic halls.A lock-down would have conceivably kept the shooter contained into his dorm hall after the 715am shooting isolating the shooter further for scrutiny by others also locked down. Also, generally after a lock-down, armed security and LEO begin doing a floor by floor inspection.
Guarantees?...Of course not....better chances??????? OK, I agree that would be the best course of action if you believed the gunman was still loose on the campus. I have read where the police believed the suspect was on the run and had left the campus, so if the call is yours, how long would you leave the lock down in effect...there is always the chance he could come back the next day. Bottom line is that if the police or college believed there was still a threat, I believe they would have locked the campus down. Now we have to wait and hear why they believed the threat had passed.
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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Barkoff,
What they believed will not be relevant in the end...it will be what was and what happened. I've said all along here, and in disagreement with some of my wise friends here, the campus police/administration acted reasonably based on what they knew in light of the present facts before the second shooting's occurred. However they will be judge in hindsight. I have agreed that giving notice to the campus would have been prudent, and in fact not doing so was a blunder if for no other reason than to cover their asses...which are now in a sling!
War Damn Eagle!
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340WBY No YOU'RE all wrong the people are NOT ALLOWED to protect themselves. \ Again, The students could not legally carry firearms, This removed the most effective way to defend them selves. Everyone is allowed to defend them selves. Going to be an ass here but anyone who trusts in law to protect their life is a fool. I am trying to reserve judgment on the actions/ inactions until some solid information is available.
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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Barkoff,
What they believed will not be relevant in the end...it will be what was and what happened. I've said all along here, and in disagreement with some of my wise friends here, the campus police/administration acted reasonably based on what they knew in light of the present facts before the second shooting's occurred. However they will be judge in hindsight. I have agreed that giving notice to the campus would have been prudent, and in fact not doing so was a blunder if for no other reason than to cover their asses...which are now in a sling! Agreed, the sad part is now that the gunman is dead, there will be more blame and finger pointing at those who were cast into the situation and probably did the best they could, than the actual shooter...seems to be the way these days... there always has to be somebody to blame.
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Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
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340WBY No YOU'RE all wrong the people are NOT ALLOWED to protect themselves. \ Again, The students could not legally carry firearms, This removed the most effective way to defend them selves. Everyone is allowed to defend them selves. Going to be an ass here but anyone who trusts in law to protect their life is a fool. I am trying to reserve judgment on the actions/ inactions until some solid information is available. Previously students were arrested for weapons violations. Students challenged this and the courts agreed it was a violation of their rights to lawfully and legally bear arms. The school then changed tactics by implementing a civil policy that expelled any student who legally and lawfully possessed a firearm at VT. At least one student was expelled who went through all the legal hurdles to lawfully possess a firearm. THis has been an ongoing fight for the last couple of years. GVA
Last edited by GaryVA; 04/17/07.
�I've never met a genius. A genius to me is someone who does well at something he hates. Anybody can do well at something he loves -- it's just a question of finding the subject.�
- Clint Eastwood
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Cossatotjoe However, questions still need to be asked. I have seen video of cops hunkered down behind a car door while wearing all the latest Ninja gear as pistol shots can be heard. Inexcusable in my opinion.
thats exactly what I was wondering. On the student made cell phone video, it was astounding that the cops were hunkered down, and hearing the shooting. Why on earth did at least one of them not storm the building? You are making a huge leap in judgement based on one bystander w/ a cellphone to take video. Even he claimed to be out of the action and did not see the shooter. From the totality of the photos and videos I saw, it sure did look like a whole bunch of officers responded from multiple jurisdictions and all were running towards the fight and not away. I saw quite a few use fairly sound tactics to help rescue and evacuate many walking wounded. Taking into account that there could have been booby traps, explosives and/or multiple shooters to take out officers in numerous fatal funnels and field of fires, it looks to me they did the best they could. Going through numerous open areas, openings, doorways, halls and rooms during training for an "Active Shooter" is extremely challenging. Adding live fire, the potential for explosives and multiple bad guys while encountering numerous victims and scores of people running at you or by you is more than most can comprehend. There is no such thing as a mad dash to the finish line. The last training session we had, our entire Swat Team was taken out in theory by one IED in a classroom that was modeled from the Columbine shootings. GVA
�I've never met a genius. A genius to me is someone who does well at something he hates. Anybody can do well at something he loves -- it's just a question of finding the subject.�
- Clint Eastwood
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+1 GaryVA
Way too early to comment on most of this stuff (though I'm dyin' to reply to a few)...so I'll keep my trap shut for now.
Everything's better when wet--in Southeast AK!
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Campfire Outfitter
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I haven't seen much of the video as I've been out dealing with flood issues for most of the last two days. I did see some with officers running to engage. Doesn't seem odd to me that a perimeter would be set up while "fire teams" engaged. In fact, that would make a lot of sense.
I don't remember who posted (sorry, was running through the thread quickly) that tactics haven't changed since Columbine. This is way off the mark, at least in my area. Now most agencies go through "active shooter" training. This would have been unheard of before. And yes, for those who are interested, we are taught to ENGAGE. No LEO that I know would want to stand around outside while there's shooting going on. Those that show up late can deal with the perimeter.
George
�Out of every one hundred men, ten shouldn't even be there, eighty are just targets, nine are the real fighters, and we are lucky to have them, for they make the battle. Ah, but the one, one is a warrior, and he will bring the others back.�
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 61,130 |
A lock down Barkoff would have cancelled the classes post announcement. Meaning, a 730am lock-down would have cancelled all classes thereater. The lock-down also implements armed security to all school buidings,especially dorms and attended academic halls.A lock-down would have conceivably kept the shooter contained into his dorm hall after the 715am shooting isolating the shooter further for scrutiny by others also locked down. Also, generally after a lock-down, armed security and LEO begin doing a floor by floor inspection.
Guarantees?...Of course not....better chances??????? Exactly. BT/DT/ BTW - classes don't start at Va.Tech until 8 a.m.
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 61,130 |
Cossatotjoe However, questions still need to be asked. I have seen video of cops hunkered down behind a car door while wearing all the latest Ninja gear as pistol shots can be heard. Inexcusable in my opinion.
thats exactly what I was wondering. On the student made cell phone video, it was astounding that the cops were hunkered down, and hearing the shooting. Why on earth did at least one of them not storm the building? You are making a huge leap in judgement based on one bystander w/ a cellphone to take video. Even he claimed to be out of the action and did not see the shooter. From the totality of the photos and videos I saw, it sure did look like a whole bunch of officers responded from multiple jurisdictions and all were running towards the fight and not away. I saw quite a few use fairly sound tactics to help rescue and evacuate many walking wounded. Taking into account that there could have been booby traps, explosives and/or multiple shooters to take out officers in numerous fatal funnels and field of fires, it looks to me they did the best they could. Going through numerous open areas, openings, doorways, halls and rooms during training for an "Active Shooter" is extremely challenging. Adding live fire, the potential for explosives and multiple bad guys while encountering numerous victims and scores of people running at you or by you is more than most can comprehend. There is no such thing as a mad dash to the finish line. The last training session we had, our entire Swat Team was taken out in theory by one IED in a classroom that was modeled from the Columbine shootings. GVA GaryVA; No complaints on that end. You gotta know what you're going in after, before going in... otherwise, you're dead LONG before you get there. USMC, infantry trained...
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