Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Long Range Hunting Need help deciding on Long Range Rifle

I have a friend at work that hunts deer and elk every chance he can. He shoots a 7mm Mag right now and says he is comfortable taking shots out to 1000 yards. He is looking for something that will be legal in Idaho (under 16 pounds) and carry more knock down at long range. What recommendations does anyone have on rifle and bullet combinations?

I disagree with him on shooting at the ranges at which he has collected game but to him rifle hunting is more about getting meat for his family, his real hunting is archery. I am just hoping to help him find the best tools for shooting in certain areas he hunts.

He did not really set any other limits, just under 16 pounds and be effective at long range on deer and elk. One gun dealer is trying to get him to buy a 50 BMG that has had every spare ounce removed and it is still not quite below the weight limit.

thanks for your help,
Boodude

there is no reason to try to pare all the weight off a 50bmg. look at idaho's own shawn carlock, he puts together 338 supermags that will get you out to a 1000 if you can do the work. I would think a 338-378, 338RUM or 338 lapua and a big bullet ought to get you there.

Sako TRG42 in .338 Lapua. Well that's on the top of my want list anyway.

250gr Matchking @ 2900fps with a bc of .587
Still supersonic at 1000 yards with almost 3/4 ton of energy left

Shawn Carlock or Kirby Allen are a couple of sub 16 pound riflesmith specialists that could easily hook you up with some 1000 yard medicine. In a factory rifle a Sendero in 300 Ultra or 338 Ultra or any of the Weatherby Accumarks from 300Wby on up will do it. You will need practice a lot to get proficient out there. Any wind at all and it's game over from 500 on out.

Shawm Carlock built a 338 Laupa for me that wieghs 11.6 pounds including scope (Nightforce 5.5X22X50) My rifle hax a 30" ABS carbon weapped barrel in A Sendero stock.....Shawn Shot a .8" group at 300 yards with the 325 grain Wildcat rebated boattail with no load work up when he test fired the rifle...This was the first load that Shawn had ever tried with this bullet..I believe that this attests to the quality of Shawns work..........

Here is a picture of the rig

Where is Shawn located, and do you have his contact information?

Sweet,
I am pretty sold on the lapua. I better get one soon before the government starts to get its fingers in regulating that one also.

http://www.defensiveedge.net

shawn and kirby both build a sub 16 pound 338 Allen Mag (338/408 chey-tac with the kirby improvement) flattest shooter out there I believe
RR

Dang shame that the 338 AM won't fit in my 300 Rem action!

Jeff, the 338 Laupa or Edge shooting a 300 or 325grain SMK or a Wildcat bullet with a bc in the .720 to .8+ range at a muzzle velocity of 2850+ is a pretty decent long range rig on game......

I really want the AM.....but you are saying I can go Edge or Lapua in a standard Remmy action, that might reconvince me... I was wanting 338 caliber... have a 338-378 spied thats sentimental to me but it won't be LR capable...

Thanks, Jeff

My 338 Laupa is built on a Rem 700 action.........

yup, my 338 LM based 7mm is built on a LH rem 700, not sure if its like this with all makers but kirby will only build 338 LM based rifles on a blue 700 action. Don't know why
RR

Shawn built mine on a Stainless Action.........

Here's a good way to start.

Just get a standard 300 Rem Ultra and shoot the livin daylights out of it. It will do well for long range and teach you a lot in the meantime.

When that barrel is worn out send it to Shawn or Kirby and then have the reciever and bolt squared and trued and barreled with 338 EDGE round.

This is the practical way to shoot and get EDGE brass. All that 300 brass will be used to neck up to 338 and use in the new EDGE.

In all honesty the 300 ultra is on heck of a long range cartridge in its own right with bullet over 200 gr.

IMO the 338 EDGE and 300 ULTRA mag are the most practical and affordable longrange units that are offered. The 338 Allen mag is cool and I've witnessed it in a shooting session. But it involves lots more work, cost, and it will only be good in a large heavy rifle.

It's just cheaper and easier for a guy to play with the ultra or the EDGE.

Over on LRH, Kirby Allen brought up an interesting point on the 338 Ruger dreams. He said that you could put one in a Remington magnum (ultra) action and should be able to use the big 265 wildcats and still have a working repeater that would be equivalent to the 338 RUM.

Thanks everyone for your great advice. I brought your recommendations to him and he also really appreciated it. Looks like he is going with the 300 RUM. We found a friend who started with a stock 700 and had quite a bit of professional work done to it. He wants only $900 for it and it comes with everything except the scope. I will also let him know about that great option of moving up to .338 after he wears out the .300.

Thanks again everyone, you really came through for me.
BooDude

Retained energy doesn't mean better penetration. Shaking head - when will some learn. Bullet construction is more important then all this energy crap when it comes to penetration. We have only proved this for years.

With the right bullet the 300 win mag will bring down elk at 1000 yards. Sure the 300 RUM is a great long range cartridge. Just don't sell yourself short on using heavy lead filled bullets.

Use a solid copper bullet design and obtain better penetration.

When I see a mushroomed bullet I shudder and say: Why?

Don

Oh heck yes retained energy means better penetration, use the same bullet in each caliber, the one with more energy will utilize it better...

What you are saying is a good 06 with the right bullet is better than a 300 with the wrong one. Very much correct. But the 300 with the right bullet will better the 06 every time.

Dealing with recoil is a simplistic issue, a 300 RUM or 338 RUM simply does not recoil enough to be an issue.

Jeff

rost,
Wrong. Bullet construction is the major player in penetration. I think you missed that part of my post.

Take 2 equal weight bullets shot at the same velocity into the same media. One is lead filled and the other is of solid copper construction. The solid copper bullet will provide more penetration. Point being, one doesn't always need that heavy lead filled bullet.

Retained energy means nothing in the comparison above. Bullet construction is the factor in the above.

Don

At 1000 yds hitting where you aim is the most important thing. Much higher BC's are available in heavy lead filled bullets which gives you an advantage in the wind. I'm not worried about a bullet "blowing up" and failing to penetrate at such distances...or even 1/2 that.

"Much higher BC's are available in heavy lead filled bullets which gives you an advantage in the wind"

Wrong again.

So sad.

The subject was penetration and retained energy. Bullet construction is more important.

As to the higher BC. A solid copper bullet can be turned to a geometric shape which provides a BC as high or higher then any lead filled bullet. That arguement doesn't hold water grasshopper.

Don

Clearly, I was speaking of "available" bullets that will work for hunting (at least expand a little).

Yep, used those turned hi BC bullets before a bit.. thought I'd haev a margin of error on bad days. Could not get em to shoot in my rifles, though I suspect it had to do wiht not being set up for them.

Jeff

Your "FRIEND" doesn't sound very ethical to me...Wanting to shoot at an Elk at 1000 yds....Does he have STUPID tattooed on his forehead??? If not he should... Or maybe he's just fat & lazy??? Maybe your "FRIEND" should just take the money he would spend on this NEW RIFLE & just buy a steer...I'm kind of disappointed that I see this kind of thinking going on & even being discussed as an option for hunting. If he fires & it runs off is he willing to track it??? Will he even be able to find the EXACT spot the animal was standing when he fired? Shooting at 1000 yards at a range is one thing. You are shooting at a stationary target that is NOT going to take a step or shift its position once you squeeze the trigger...IMO This type of thinking should not be encouraged...

Some of us can, some of us can't. Those that can't always take a negative look at it all. Walking no miles in others shoes. Shows a lot of intelligence IMHO.

BTW finding the exact spot is awful easy if you have any common sense.

Jeff

JonA,

You seem to be hung up on a bullet that "expands". I shudder when I see a bullet expand (mushroom). Now, before you think otherwise I am not picking on you in any way. There are a lot of hunters, dare I say "Most" hunters don't understand the parameters of using turned bullets made from solid copper.

If you know of GS Custom bullets, I would ask you to read all the data Gerard has on his site. There is a lot of very good information to be had there.

I was interested in his concept and did a lot of digging to find out as much as I could about how a solid copper (turned) bullet works versus a lead filled bullet.

I started "Playing" with making various designs and started shooting them at paper and varmints to see what affects took place. I went through litterally hundreds of designs. Some I look back at and smile (laugh) about. I didn't use GS Customs' "Band" design because there are some issues with that design that I didn't like. I won't get into that. But, the concept of using a bullet turned from solid copper and the fact that lighter bullets can be used which provide better penetration then heavier lead filled bullets, had my interest.

Long story, short, I have been making my own bullets, out of solid copper, for over 10 years now which provide better performance then the heavier lead counterparts.

As an example: I had a buddy hunting with me in May 2004 in South Africa that used his 7mm mag and my 127gr bullets to bring down his 54" Kudu at 135 yards. One shot, broadside, is all it took to bring it down. The bullet went all the way through. When he told me he got his Kudu, in camp that night, my first question was: How big was the exit hole. There was no doubt in my mind that the bullet provided complete pass through.

The first night before our Safari started both of our guides told us 127gr bullet is way to light for most of the animals we were after. Now, you must understand, my buddy had already taken his 6 X 6 bull elk the previous year in CO with his 7mm mag, at 280 yards, broadside, Shot high in the nearside leg and broke the offside leg on the way out. One shot = dead elk. When the guides (PH's) told him that bullet was to light, he laughed and explained all the various game he has killed using those bullets. They weren't convinced and explained: You draw blood, you just bought the animal.

Long story short, my buddy killed his Kudu, Blesbuck and Impala with his 7mm mag and the 127gr bullet. Three shots, three pass throughs (broadside) and three dead animals.

Again, I don't want to make this sound like I am pointing you out - I am not. It is just that when something is "Different" a lot of people are threatened by it. Lightweight copper bullets bringing down large animals is "Different" then what most hunters are used to.

I could list many examples and most would say: BS. But they just don't know because they never tried/used the better bullet design.

Don

Thomas,

Would you call the following "Ethical"

A hunter going after deer, using his 30-30 (or whatever caliber he has), goes to the range, shoots one round at 100 yards and comes within 3" of where he was aiming. He has been using the same (20 round) box of ammo for the last 20 years. He then goes deer hunting.

That is a description of over 1/2 of the deer hunters in the USA.

OR

The guy that spends countless hours and hundreds if not thousands of rounds a year shooting at distances to 1000 - 1500 -2000 or more yards. Takes 2 or 3 sighter shots at whatever distance the animal is and makes needed adjustments prior to taking aim at the animal and killing it.

This is usually done with at least 3 people. One sighter, one guy on the rifle and one guy using a spotting scope or "Big Eyes" (2 spotting scopes assembled side by side in a frame which looks like a HUGE pair of binoculars).

After the hit, the animal can be seen and using radios directing the guys to the deer. This person uses the "Big Eyes" to guide guys to the deer.

Now I ask you: Which of the 2 above examples is more ethical???

Remember, your ethics and mine may not be the same.

Don

Don

I'll bite, so how well does a solid non expanding bullet kill? Does it require breaking bone?

I shot a doe this spring with a somewhat similar instance, except it was FMJ through the lungs from a 50 cal. No expansion of course, a great looking hole. Ran like hell, NO blood trail at all, very few hair. Finding the track the bullet took after hitting teh deer through the brush was 100 times easier than finding the deer... but we did. She bled a few ounces where she fell...
I bought 50 cal X bullets right after that. Which reminds me.... wonder what a 375ish 50 cal X pistol bullet would do out of a 50 bmg... probably not the same diameter.... But I'll do the 650ish X bullets next time...

Jeff

I would like to comment. I am a traditional lead/ copper coated bullet user, But I have been doing some research about the non lead solid copper bullets like the barnes TSX bullet. It's too late this year tofor me to work up a load but this video will give you a good idea of how the solid bullet works on an animal. I have a friend that shoots the tsx and at 300 yard out of a 7stw, a deer will spew lungs on his way down. Check out this video http://www.barnesbullets.com/videos/308_180gr_TSX_6fps_logo.wmv

TSX is not a solid non expanding bullet! It is HP and opens up. I have used the X series including teh new TSX for enough years I don't recall when I started, probably mid 90s.... I won't use anything else personally.

Jeff

I think that Don's bullets work exactly like the GS Custom bullets where the petals shear off.I believe that Dave7mm uses the same bullet or one very simular..I would still classify this as an expanding bullet....

I shudder when I see a bullet expand????? Vs Open up? Hard to say from the writing. If thats what Don is talking about its not clear to me, but if its basically an X of a different flavor, all is well...

I"ve shot custom turned homogenous bullets that were basically solids, High BC and not all that accurate.... forget the name its been so long ago but boxes of 20, each bullet in a foam tube...

Jeff

What shows a lot of intelligence is shooting at elk at 1000 yds. That's my story & I'm sticking to it...too much time passes from the time you squeeze the trigger till the bullet arrives...

What shows a lot of intelligence is shooting at elk at 1000 yds. That's my story & I'm sticking to it... too much time passes from the time you squeeze the trigger till the bullet arrives ... [/quote


What shows a lack of intelligence is your inability to comprehend the concept

How much time would that be,any idea??
I suppose shooting at an unaware animal and making a clean kill is not your idea of how to do things........

Thomas

Its all about the attitude of the animal.

Do you have a clue as to how much time actually passes on a shot with a good magnum?

Are you also aware that even on relatively close shot the animal could move at any micro second? Neighbor shoots, animal catches a wiff etc....whatever... I shot at a doe head once, head down feeding, she jerked her head up just as I shot, I now know that I only shoot at alert heads.....

I will say that an elk sized target at 1000 yards is not for most folks. But for those that put in the time, we like to discuss it. Of course most don't have or want to take the time that it takes to become good at this. And thats your/their decision.

Heck time of flight of a 40-50 yard bow shot that most don't argue over is admittely not in micro seconds...

I'm just sorry that folks that don't know a thing about it profess to know it all about it.

[quote=Thomas_Towns What shows a lot of intelligence is shooting at elk at 1000 yds.... [/quote]

Now coming into a Long Range Hunting Forum and talking [bleep],now that shows a lot of intellegence..........I'm impressed.........

Don,

I may be showing my ignorance here, I will admit I know very little about the concept of using monometal nonexpanding bullets on game...

In actuality, I'm sure nonexpanding bullets work just fine on hits to the vitals, but I just can't get it through my head that penetration is be-all to end-all factor in lethality.

For example, why not shoot an ultra fast .17 caliber monometal bullet? due to its smaller bearing surface, it will penetrate more than typical hunting caliber monometal bullets if pushed at the same velocity. Or for that matter, why not push a needle at 3000 fps? It'll outpenetrate anything else out there.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that it's the overall volume of the wound channel in the vitals which correlates with efficiency of dispatching game. Penetration is very important (because if the wound channel is in the shoulder rather than in the vitals, the shot would not be immediately lethal), but it is not the single most important factor.

Sorry to take this thread so far off topic, but I'm kinda curious about the above concept

Of course I am. I'm not talking about copper bullets that blow off their front petals and wadcutter through--that is acceptable to me. Maybe not my first choice for long range (Texas Heart Shots aren�t something I�m going to try at long range), but acceptable.

I'm talking about one turned to a sharp point (which is what you need to get a competitive BC from a solid copper bullet) like a FMJ that will often not deform at all on its way through. It's very possible, even likely depending upon the circumstances for these bullets to punch through while doing very, very little damage, as Jeff has experienced. If I shoot a deer with a 50 BMG it ought not be running away! This is why I find these bullets unacceptable for terminal performance.

The various HP ones are OK with me for terminal performance, but their low BC's keep them from being the best choice for 1000 yd shots IMHO.

Oh don't worry, I'm not remotely close to feeling picked upon.

I disagree. There�s a lot of marketing BS full of misleading and just plain incorrect information.

I don�t have a very high opinion of Gerard�s used-car salesman tactics of purposely misinforming people so his bullets are viewed in a better light. I�ll give him credit for taking the listed BC�s off his site but there is no excuse for continuing to preach all over the internet that Sectional Density doesn�t exist, is a myth, has nothing significant to do with BC�s, etc. It has been explained to him very plainly for years by many people but he either isn�t capable of understanding or chooses not to.

�Not understanding� a very, very, simple mathematical relationship so he can claim one does not exist has gotten really, really old after all these years.

But it�s in his financial interest to �educate� people that Sectional Density is a Myth and has nothing meaningful to do with BC�s so that they�ll believe his low SD bullets can have really high BC�s when there�s no reason in all the world of ballistics that they should. All those nifty �downrange momentum� and wind drift charts on his site are based upon his old advertised BCs that are nowhere near reality.

I tested his cream of the crop in 30 Cal, the 173 and it scored the second lowest BC of any bullet I�ve ever tested.

Now don�t get me wrong, they are very nice bullets. Very well made, accurate and I�m sure they penetrate just as far as advertised. I think they�d make a very nice flat shooting load for general, more �normal range� hunting even including some long shots. BC is not everything.

But at 1000 yards, it�s pretty close. The farther you go the more important it becomes. At 1000 yds and farther you�re way beyond �flat shooting� meaning a damn thing. If I want to make a first round hit at that distance, the last thing in the world I�m going to do is choose a bullet that will drift two or three times as much in the wind. And the fact it�ll be going much slower when it gets there won�t help its killing power a bit. End to end penetration potential is meaningless to me in this circumstance. If it can punch through a shoulder, that�s plenty and you don�t need a solid copper bullet to do that, especially at these sort of ranges.

I know you didn�t completely swallow Gerard�s stuff hook, line and sinker as your advertised BCs were much more realistic. For that I commend you. I�m sure your bullets, such as the 127 you mention were fine bullets that performed exactly as you say.

All I�m saying is for ranges like 1000 yds (which is way beyond what most even here will do), suggesting a bullet of that type is leading people down the wrong path. They�d be much better off with a 180 Berger, 200 Wildcat, etc. Resistance to wind drift, having enough velocity to actually do some damage when it gets there is much more important than ultimate penetration potential in this application IMHO.

Flight time would be well over a full second & wind drift in a STEADY 10 mph crosswind for a 250 gr. .338 fmj/bt at about 2850 fps is going to be somewhere around 55-56 inches. The difference in trajectory between 900 & 1000 is about 50 inches. Sniping at an enemy combatant is one thing. Hunting for Elk another IMO...I just hope you guys all have good horses & only hunt when there's snow on the ground.

I know that you do not total understand long range hunting,because you mention drop in inches instead of Miuntes Of Angle...I do not care how many inches a bullet dropsI am only interested in how many Minutes Of Angle I need for correction in drop as well as MOA...
In your example with a 338 250 grain SMK with a BC of .587 at 2850 fps will need a correction at 1K ( asumeing a 225 yard zero and 700 feet of elevation and 10 MPH 90 degree cross wind))will need a drop correction of 22.75 MOA and a wind correction of 4.75 MOA... the drop in inches is 237.3 inches and the drop correction at 950 yards is 206.8 inches as you can see in this example the difference is 30.5 inches....I know that your example is based on sea level,but most of my hunting is at higher elevations..A quality targeting soft ware ballistics computer based program is a must in my opion....

My longest kill thus far is 777 yards a one shot kill in a 10 MPH wind and no we did not need horses or snow as the Antelope DRT.............
You can read about it with pictures and witness accounts here



It'a called knowing how to acomplise your intended goal and practicing until you have total confidence,a hell of a concept......try it sometime.....

Time of flight, I shoot at undisturbed animals at longer distances....

I also shoot some slow rounds up around 200 yards, such that I shoot, recoil and come back on target as the round strikes. Buffalo hunters used to do very similar but much longer ranges. Its in knowing your animal... IE I run a much higher chance of a screw up at an alerted animal up close than a relaxed one at distance, just common sense there. You pick a grazing or resting animal, generally they take note of a happening by picking their head up, they will not generally instantly flee because they need to identify both danger, and a safe escape route.
OTOH you take elk like I found last fall, they had already spotted us before I heard them, they went a short distance and stopped to stare, at under 100 yards that was a shot I would take, but was actually much more dangerous than a long shot.
Just recently I had a offhand snap shot at alerted game about 120 yards away, I had only seconds and a small opening.... I pulled the trigger but evidently as I did the animal started to move out. Even with a fast 338/378 the bullet was about 10 inches back of where it should be.... It can happen anywhere. As an example the opposite way my current long kill is 802 slope distance, and it took minutes to make the shot, caribou was grazing and I was waiting for broadside, which came, a good lung hit, he moved around at the hit and stood to stare and so I hit him a second time. Time of flight? Don't know but it was only a 338 WM with 225s at about 2750. But the animal was unaware and time of flight would not have really mattered.

I will give you that 4-6 seconds TOF becomes interesting simply with the wind but I've shot enough TOF of that with a 50 at long distances to say that its still workable under a set of conditions.

Its a shame some folks just don't want to research and have no experience at things before they claim its not workable.

I've done a fair amount of long range shooting...Yes PRACTICE PRACTICE PRACTICE...Knowing your rifle & load...Laminated cards showing exact trajectory in 10 yd. increments once the ballistics dictate. Also the number of clicks needed at any specific range past your zero...NO, NOT off ballistics charts...The REAL LIFE trajectory of your rifle & load combo...More than anything I was & have been responding to the original post...Quote: I disagree with him on shooting at the ranges at which he has collected game but to him rifle hunting is more about getting meat for his family....his real hunting is archery....Hmmm...Now correct me if I'm wrong (AGAIN) but this does not appear to me to be a dedicated long range shooter who is going to spend the time & money required to become proficient at putting a killing shot on an elk at 1000 yds. It just appears to me that there will be the lack of dedication required...

If you are refering to roust495,then you are mistaken,Jeff is an acomplished Long Range competitive shooter as well as Long Range Hunter...He also enjoys bow hunting.....and has successfuly taken game out to 800 yards or so....

No I was refering to the original post by BooDude who was asking about long range rifles for a "FRIEND"...While in the shower a few minutes ago I got to thinking about all the time & money I've spent over the years working up accurate hunting loads for all the rifles I've owned...I could probably retire...If BooDudes friend doesn't handload he needs to start...What really has me shaking my head is thinking this guy is gonna go out & buy a 300 RUM, 3X9 scope, factory ammo & start taking pot shots at animals 1000 yds. off. Maybe I just read or interpreted the original post wrong...TT

TT,
None of us would support unprepared/irresponsible hunting. It angers me when someone assumes if they purchase X-Brand gun, scope, etc., they are qualified/ready to hunt at longer ranges.

NOpe you won't find one ounce of support for long shots if the effort is not put in prior.

What does piss us off is someone saying its not ethical or can't be done...

Jeff

BTW...jwp475...The pic you posted of the Lapua with the Nightforce....SWEEET looking Rig....

Thanks,.........

I guess I need to add more info for Thomas. My friend Norm has lived in or near the woods his entire 50+ years. Mostly a logger, but really a jack of all trades. The reason he works where I work is because we get about 4 weeks of time off per year that he uses for hunting. He has hunted deer and elk every year that it was legal (usually in more than 1 state in a season), loads his own ammo, shoots varmints every spring, and competes in archery every summer and fall. His hunting has been all over Oregon and Idaho, especially high in the mountains. I respect his experience and his confidence in what he can do with his 7mm mag. He and I were just discussing that there is an area that he hunts that he has not been able to ambush the bulls. He can catch them resting or feeding at fairly long range and even though he is very willing to stalk them he has not been able to get to them before they move on. I disagree with him on the ranges he wants to shoot, but that is because I have not practiced beyond 300 yards. I do know that he will not take a shot without a spotter, having ranged the target, and under the right conditions. My request for help was to help him have the best tools available if he gets the chance to shoot next year in that area. Basically I feel that it would be unethical for me to take that shot, but with how much Norm practices my main concern is only that there is still enough killing power when he hits his target. He is also from a family of long time hunters, his mom took a buck with a .270 at a lasered 600 yards last year. As to his dedication, well after we priced the guns he said that only a high end Leopold or something similar would do, so he is willing to put a couple thousand dollars and a lot of his time into this project.

You guys know better than me.

But I do have a buddy who bought a M700 XCR in .338 UM and ended up having to sell it. Really bummed him out because it was a very accurate rifle. He found it to be too much to handle from hunting positions. The scope was tagging him, and he tried multiple things to mitigate it but it was just too much recoil. This is a guy who has sold more guns than most of us will ever own, including a couple .375's, 7 STW's, multiple .338's and 300 magnums, etc. Anyway, I would qualify the above statement by adding, "the rifle needs to have more weight to it than a standard sporter or recoil may very well be an "issue" for many shooters"...

... and I may be wrong. :-)

-jeff

How about just add a brake,rather than making the gun too heavy to be practical and just use good ear protection.....

Also in my experience with a brake on the end of a 30" barrel they are no worse in the noise department than an unbroke 26" barrel....

A good brake really does help a lot.
A solid bottomed brake would be great if you are shooting prone.

Holland's or Defensive edge are the two I use, but I have more of Holland's.

My buddy didn't want to put a brake on it. I don't remember why. He's pretty sensitive about his hearing, that might be it.

-jeff

A brake on a long range rig is nothing to worry about. If you don't have time to put earmuffs on, you don't have time to do the calculations to make the shot at long range.

I always tote earmuffs with my long range gun and have never had an issue with getting them on before the shot

The "having time" thing makes a lot of sense in a long-range context. It's why my turrets don't bug me, even though they take a scootch longer than a reticle. That said, when a scope needed buying, I just bought one with a LR reticle...

Anyway, my bud Tom was buying it as a general-purpose rifle, not just for long distance stuff. So a brake wasn't going to work for him.

-jeff

I don't like brakes either. I just mount the scope far enough forward it can't get me. Problem solved.

Just to be clear, I didn't say or imply that BC wasn't important. I never used a solid pointed bullet on any animal, that I am aware of. Geometrically a bullet made from solid copper can be made with as high or higher BC as any lead filled bullet - hollow point (expanding type) bullet. All one has to do it make a separate plastic or metal tip. As most already know, most of the time, using a solid copper bullet of the same weight as the lead filled bullet one needs a faster twist.

Gerards concept is 100% spot on. His bullet perform great. As to accuracy, he and I can agree to disagree on that one,
I didn't imply or say his bullets should be used at 1000 yards. As to his posted BC's - if they were off it really didn't matter much to me. I ALWAYS shoot at paper at ALL the various distances I plan to hunt. That way I know what MY rifle will do with a certain bullet.

Wind is a variable that doesn't come into play to much for any ethical hunter, whether killing a deer at 100 yards or 1000 yards. At 100 yards most hunters ignore the wind. At 1000 yards most ethical hunter shoot a few practice rounds at something "Near" the animal, so wind doesn't really matter that much.

Therefor, BC doesn't really matter that much because it can all be calculated in. One "Lobs" in a little higher then the other. Who really cares. As long as the animal dies in a short period of time - that is what matters - to me.

I will continue to use turned bullets made from solid copper because they outperform lead filled bullets over a wider use.

Don

Well, I simply couldn't disagree more. I don't hunt in underground tunnels, there's always some amount of wind. Just how much is nearly always the single biggest determining factor of the range at which I'd feel comfortable taking a shot.

For a given set of conditions, a bullet that drifts twice as much means I shorten that range considerably. It limits me. Or at any given range, the odds of a miss or a bad hit due to slightly incorrect wind call are increased.

The original question was for out to 1000 yds. That does not mean a spotter shot for everybody. Even with spotter shots, the wind can change between them. The lower BC bullet you're using, the farther off your shot will be as a result.

Again, I don't doubt yours or Gerard's bullets performing very well over a wide range of use. That doesn't make them the best choice for this application.

Wind is THE uncontrolled variable; I can only think that DonKnows was making some broader point because what's quoted above makes no sense...

-jeff

This may be the single biggest piece of nonsense I have ever seen at the campfire.