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Joined: Apr 2007
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Campfire 'Bwana
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OP
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 32,312 |
The CENTER will hold.
Reality, Patriotism,Trump: you can only pick two
FÜCK PUTIN!
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 32,312
Campfire 'Bwana
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OP
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 32,312 |
I'm still trying to figure out why 2800 fps is so "perfect".
Nothing is perfect, of course. I base my opinion on my experience. In my experience, shooting "moderate" calibers such as 7-08, 30-06, 30-30, 32 win, .358, etc I have NEVER had a bullet failure, I have ALWAYS had an exit wound, and I have NEVER lost an animal. That's in only 15 deer, but that starts to be a big enough sample that I can form an informed opinion. In my opinion. In that batch of deer, bullets used included many soft bullets like Powerpoints, Hot Cors, Ballistic Tips, etc. Every single one exited the deer. One hears no end to the horror stories about problems when one jacks the MV up too high. Now is where you say "don't use a fly to flanders bullet, use a TSX" but to that I say, why? When standard bullets in standard, moderate calibers kill so well? It is foolishness to correct a velocity problem with an expensive, hard to get bullet when there is a much simpler solution- keep the speed in the "window" and watch things work great. And burn less powder, suffer less recoil, watch your rifle barrel last multiples of time longer, listen to less ringing in your ears... etc ad nauseum. In a general purpose hunting rifle I think the perfect MV is in the 2900 range... that means that at typical killin' ranges the bullet will be going 2200-2600 fps. And the rifle will shoot plenty flat out to 500 yards is a person is so inclined. And you know what? That bullet will almost certainly perform... ta da... "perfectly"! A person engaging in long-distance hunting is playing a different game, with different rules, of course. Those people represent a minority by far and yet everyone is getting addicted to extremely fast cartridges then shooting little dog deer at 125 yards and wondering why they just lost half the meat. That's what I think anyway. -jeff
Last edited by Jeff_Olsen; 09/21/07.
The CENTER will hold.
Reality, Patriotism,Trump: you can only pick two
FÜCK PUTIN!
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Joined: May 2006
Posts: 4,058
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 4,058 |
I have 2 338s and a 300 winnie. But I will be taking the Model 70 classic compact in .308 elk hunting this year. 3 pounds lighter is well worth having to get a few feet closer.
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Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 1,741
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Jun 2005
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Jeff -
I believe that you are right on point in your assessment!
Your life is made of two dates and a dash. Make the most of the dash.
Sometimes you're the bug, sometimes you're the windshield.
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 30,282
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 30,282 |
Jeff, how many elk have you killed with the 338 WM and what are the specifics?
“Perfection is Achieved Not When There Is Nothing More to Add, But When There Is Nothing Left to Take Away” Antoine de Saint-Exupery
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Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 8,759
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jul 2001
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Nothing is perfect, of course.
I base my opinion on my experience. In my experience, shooting "moderate" calibers such as 7-08, 30-06, 30-30, 32 win, .358, etc I have NEVER had a bullet failure, I have ALWAYS had an exit wound, and I have NEVER lost an animal. That's in only 15 deer, but that starts to be a big enough sample that I can form an informed opinion. In my opinion.
In that batch of deer, bullets used included many soft bullets like Powerpoints, Hot Cors, Ballistic Tips, etc. Every single one exited the deer.
One hears no end to the horror stories about problems when one jacks the MV up too high.
Now is where you say "don't use a fly to flanders bullet, use a TSX" but to that I say, why? When standard bullets in standard, moderate calibers kill so well? It is foolishness to correct a velocity problem with an expensive, hard to get bullet when there is a much simpler solution- keep the speed in the "window" and watch things work great. And burn less powder, suffer less recoil, watch your rifle barrel last multiples of time longer, listen to less ringing in your ears... etc ad nauseum.
In a general purpose hunting rifle I think the perfect MV is in the 2900 range... that means that at typical killin' ranges the bullet will be going 2200-2600 fps. And the rifle will shoot plenty flat out to 500 yards is a person is so inclined. And you know what? That bullet will almost certainly perform... ta da... "perfectly"!
A person engaging in long-distance hunting is playing a different game, with different rules, of course. Those people represent a minority by far and yet everyone is getting addicted to extremely fast cartridges then shooting little dog deer at 125 yards and wondering why they just lost half the meat.
That's what I think anyway.
-jeff
Jeff, Great post! And 15 deer kills is plenty to form an opinion. Some of the best hunters I know pass up far more bucks than they kill since they are trophy hunters so does that make the meat hunter's opinion more valid? Of course not! MtnHtr
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 30,282
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Oct 2000
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Deer are so hard to kill... can't really see how they're a "test" of much anything.
“Perfection is Achieved Not When There Is Nothing More to Add, But When There Is Nothing Left to Take Away” Antoine de Saint-Exupery
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Campfire Outfitter
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Deer are so hard to kill... can't really see how they're a "test" of much anything. Very true on the kill factor. So how many big mulies have you slayed? MtnHtr
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Joined: Oct 2000
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Oct 2000
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Body wise, not rack wise, a few... how many elk you killed?
“Perfection is Achieved Not When There Is Nothing More to Add, But When There Is Nothing Left to Take Away” Antoine de Saint-Exupery
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Brad-- Asking people to back up opinions and attitudes with experience will take all the fun out of the internet. (I think I have killed 6 elk; five with 7 Mag and one with 6.5-06. My son has killed 3 with .270. I am glad no one told the elk we were so woefully undergunned.)
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Campfire Outfitter
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I've killed two elk, does that make me a lessor hunter than you?
MtnHtr
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Brad knows a whole heck of a lot more about rifles and hunting than I ever will, and has had a great deal of influence on the rifles I have had built. I'm sure he is correct to prefer the '06 over the 338 WM, but the '06 just doesn't give me the good comfortable feeling that I have with the WM Good old common sense is one thing, but confidence in a rifles ability is something else.
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Joined: Oct 2000
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Your insecurity makes you think it does... I could care less. You're the one that started a pissing contest (as usual).
My point was and remains, deer aren't much of a test of anything... even big-bodied Carp Deer.
Would also add, those that haven't been around many elk kills tend to over arm themselves... just another thought.
“Perfection is Achieved Not When There Is Nothing More to Add, But When There Is Nothing Left to Take Away” Antoine de Saint-Exupery
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 30,282
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Oct 2000
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Good old common sense is one thing, but confidence in a rifles ability is something else. Nicely said Tracks and I know your confidence comes from experience! I'd be the last one to talk a guy out of something that works for him!
“Perfection is Achieved Not When There Is Nothing More to Add, But When There Is Nothing Left to Take Away” Antoine de Saint-Exupery
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Campfire Outfitter
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I think it's kinda odd somebody discounts deer as not much of a test of anything but perhaps Brad meant as a test of bullet construction. I guarantee a trophy class mule deer (non rut) on public land is not a slam dunk either (unless you draw a limited tag -maybe).
MtnHtr
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Joined: Oct 2000
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Nobody said killing a 180+ class Muley is easy... I just said deer aren't much of a test of bullets and cartridges (which is what this post is about in case you'd lost track).
“Perfection is Achieved Not When There Is Nothing More to Add, But When There Is Nothing Left to Take Away” Antoine de Saint-Exupery
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Campfire Outfitter
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Your insecurity makes you think it does... I could care less. You're the one that started a pissing contest (as usual).
My point was and remains, deer aren't much of a test of anything... even big-bodied Carp Deer.
Would also add, those that haven't been around many elk kills tend to over arm themselves... just another thought. There you go with your pop physic analysis again. WTF is up with you? You belittle Jeff Olsen on here by asking for "experience" and trump yourself as "Mr.Authority" Its getting old Brad, I thought you were a good dude. MtnHtr
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Joined: Oct 2000
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Mtn Hunter, your opinion of me means less than nothing... you forage around this forum looking for ways to take cheap shots at my friends and myself then act bewildered when you get called on it publicly and privately.
This is the last time I'll respond to anything you have to say so I'll be the gentleman and let you have the final word.
“Perfection is Achieved Not When There Is Nothing More to Add, But When There Is Nothing Left to Take Away” Antoine de Saint-Exupery
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Campfire Outfitter
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Nobody said killing a 180+ class Muley is easy... I just said deer aren't much of a test of bullets and cartridges (which is what this post is about in case you'd lost track). You did post "......can't really see how they're a "test" of much anything." Get a clue, you mis-posted is all. Just get over it........... MtnHtr
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you forage around this forum looking for ways to take cheap shots at my friends and myself then act bewildered when you get called on it publicly and privately.
You've slung plenty of $hit on this forum yourself and your friend has the gall to ask me for rifle info via PM after ridiculing my bullet choices & experiences on the forum. You need to get out and hunt some elk to relieve some of that nail slinging stress you've built up. MtnHtr
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