Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters A 308 Carbine

The question I had about Francis Sell's idea of a short range deer gun got me thinking. I was digging around and found an article Finn Aagard wrote way back in the day about a sawed-off 18.5 inch 308 WIN Mauser that he liked to carry. He'd used it for everything-- including braining an elephant. He'd loaded with with ever load imaginable-- 110 grain to 220 grain. He loved it.

I saw some intersections with my own experience. His 308 WIN, shortened as it was, did its best work around 150 grains going at 2600 fps. He mentioned this was in the range of the 300 Savage. Indeed, my go-to deer rifle is a Savage 99 in .308 WIN that I download to around 2600 fps, only I have to use 165 grain bullets, because the 150s don't group well in my gun. My idea was to have a 300 Savage-like gun that shot easy-to-find brass.




These are Aagard's loads. Let's say I wanted to repeat his work. Given what we have and what we know . . .

A) What rifle do we start with? Today, it doesn't have to be an Israeli-surplus Mauser.
B) What length of barrel. He cut his to 18.5" but he would admit that caused some velocity loss? Should it be 20"?
C) Loadings. His loads, especially the H4895 load, spot on with my loads. However, I got to thinking: for a short barrel, would a faster powder work better? What powder? What Bullets would you choose?

I think I found a candidate rifle. I've held one, and I have to agree with Aagard, it's a sweet machine.



It's a Ruger Hawkeye Scout. I'd probably scope it conventionally.

Bonus question: Given Aagard's later epiphany regarding the 7mm-08, ideally, would you want this rifle in a different chambering?

Flip a coin on 7-08 vs 308. I like them both. I have a Tikka shortened to 18" that is magic and will be shortening a 7mm-08 Blaser R8 barrel to create a Stutzen R8. Can't go wrong in my mind.

It depends on what you mean by better. Velocity and accuracy wise the best full power loads will use the same powders as "standard" barrel length loads.

I had it in my head that a shorter barrel would have a faster powder work most efficiently. I assumed that, because slower powders seem to work better in longer barrels. That's based on my work with pistol-caliber rifles. H110 in 357 Mag and 44 Mag starts to make real sense if you take those chamberings and go from a 7.5" pistol barrel to an 18.5" carbine.

Bottleneck rifle cartridges and their appropriate powders in 16"+ barrels behave differently than a straight walled pistol cartridge going from one barrel length to another over twice as long.

Go to the Hodgdon online load data. They list 308 Winchester in rifle data and handgun data. IIRC the test barrel length drops from 24" to 15". With the typical 308 powders you won't find any major reshuffling between the barrel lengths.

Your H4895 will be just fine.

This article was the reason I purchased my Savage 11. scout rifle. Love that gun and the 308 win. 20 inch barrel. A leupy 2.5 scope scoutand it loves factory Remington 150gr CLSP. Cloveleaf groups at 100 yards. I will not be without this type of setup. It just works for me.

I have a good friend with a Ruger Scout in .308. It has a remarkable amount of muzzle blast, enough to convince me to never go shorter than 20 inches with a .308 (and forgoe the flash hider).

Some time back I ordered a Remington XCR-CTR (extreme conditions rifle in the compact tactical rifle configuration.) it’s a 9 twist.223 fluted, somewhat heavy 20” barrel, aluminum block bedded in a B&C aramid fiber stock. Everything is stainless, but some kind of black, high tech finish. Stock is kind of OD green with black specks. I put a Timney trigger in it and a Leupold 1.75-6 from the Leupold custom shop that is finished in black splattered OD green to pretty much match the rifle. It’s a very accurate and reliable rifle. My only regret is that I didn’t get a matching one in .308 at the same time. For me, that would ring all the bells for a compact, rugged.308.

I love my 700 XCR CT in 308. It is an early example which came with the 40x trigger, so no swap needed.

A LOT of folks around here hunt with 20" .308 and 7mm-08 rifles, some of which are factory carbines like the Model Seven, some of which are youth versions of popular bolt actions, and some of which are factory rifles threaded for cans or brakes. I currently find myself with five rifles with barrels from 16" to 20" in 6.5CM, 7mm-08, and .308Win. The shortest ones are threaded for suppressor use. I've only been hunting 34 years, but I've never seen a 150-180gr .308Win load produce inadequate results on countless animals shot by myself or my hunting buddies. Same actually goes for typical 140-150gr 7mm-08 loads.

If I didn't have any of them and wanted a general purpose hunting carbine that was made for handiness and effectiveness, I'd simply find a .308Win or 7mm-08 stainless 700 or T3 and cut it back to 20". I prefer the standard sporter guns over the pencil barrel factory carbines. Both examples would be light and have good odds of being MOA accurate with little fuss. H4895 is my preffered powder in both of those chamberings with light to moderate-weight bullets, and I've loaded them at full-tilt and at reduced speeds.

This pic is now several years old, but that's a cut-down 20" 700 SPS SS 7mm-08 in a youth ADL stock with one buttpad spacer installed. It's always been a super handy little killing machine. Would likely be the same in a .308Win.

shaman, don’t know if this is a real thing or just navel-gazing, but you might want to consider going a bit smaller for your cartridge selection: 6.5 Grendel, 6.8, 7.62x39, or even the .350L. You can go light, and short (20” is as short as I want) without suffering excessively from either recoil or blast, they use a lot less powder, and come in some reduced-scale rifles that are a pleasure to carry around and shoot. New bullets make smaller rounds very effective for the game found in our region. No secret here that I favor the 6.5 with 120gr Gold Dots, but it can also be used with heavier bullets to simulate the 6.5 MS, and lighter ones to duplicate original .250 Savage loads, both great cartridges for Eastern whitetails and adequate for bears I suspect. Just another way to skin that cat.

I had my one and only, no-more-for-me-thanks, 18.5” .308 about 1970. I was shooting only factory back then, but I doubt even .300 Savage-level loads would make one any more pleasant to shoot, ear-pro or not. You can always use a can, but that adds a lot to the expense and trouble, and length of course.

Fair point on barrel length. I'd not go below 20" on anything with a 308Win-ish case capacity unless it was getting a suppressor. Too harsh on the ears below that length.

Honestly, I'm not sure myself. However, folks seemed to like commenting on the thread I started on a short range deer rifle, and I found the Finn Aagard piece, and thought I'd mention it.

I'm still probing the depths of my TC Compass in 7mm-08. I'm not going to bob the barrel on that unless I have a really good reason. I also have my Savage 99 in 308 WIN. I wouldn't want to touch that ever. It was a once-in-a-lifetime find. I'm not really sure where I'm going to go next.

The one thing that keeps gnawing at me is that I've got all this 308 brass and I still think a bolt gun in that chambering would be handy. Whether I scratch that itch now or later remains to be seen.

One thing I had not thought of an y'all brought it to my attention: Right now, I don't have a gun that gives an uncomfortable amount of blast. Bobbing a barrel to less than 20 inches is going to change that.

Navel gazing? Possibly. However, I've learned that this august forum seems to respond well to the various lint and crumbs I find.

My Adirondack has an 18" barrel but doesn't seem especially blasty to me. On the other hand, an 18" AR-10 with a muzzle device is sort of unpleasant. The Kimber is a handy rifle. Normally I'd find a light rifle more challenging for off hand work, but the trigger on this one is light enough that I can shoot it well in spite of the feathery weight. I use 150 gr accubonds at 2800 or 200 gr partitions at 2350.

Kimber Montana 84M, 308 Win. is just about perfect at 22”.
Regret not buying an early Rem M700 Carbine 308 Win. at the Morris show a few years ago.

I once owned a Remington 788 carbine in 308. It was a decent deer gun but it certainly wasn’t pleasant shooting with an 18 1/2 inch barrel. I wasn’t a reloader at the time and used factory Winchester ammunition almost exclusively. As a reloader, you may be able to tame that muzzle blast some.

Nick

One of my favorite still hunting and tracking rifles was a Sav 99 in 308 with the barrel wacked to 16 1/2" tossing 180hgr RNs. I topped it with a Leupold Vx-ll 1-4. It was lightning fast and killed deer from any direction. When I moved I left it with my nephew he's still killing deer with it.

I agree on barrel length, for me, anything under 18 inched becomes too loud.

I've got 3 that suit this need very well for me:

A browning BAR stalker, from a special run of 250 with a fluted 18" barrel and open sights.

Christensen Mesa FFT lightweight with a 20" barrel.

Tikka CTR stainless with a heavy contour 20" barrel.

Of course, all 3 in 308Win.

Out of a 20 inch tube, Remington green box, 150gr CLSP gets 2750 FPS, good speed for factory ammo!