Seems you are again in full retreat…. Can’t back up your allegations….unable to participate in any sort of rational discussion.
Sorry you missed the point, guess I couldn’t dumb it down enough for you to either understand or offer any sort of thoughtful reply.
Meh…
You didn't "dumb it down", you created a straw man.
Nope, don’t think so. Just tried to illustrate ….that one need not know HOW something was made to know THAT it was made.
Seems he either can’t admit that….or….?….who knows….
So….here we are again…. Must we know HOW something is made to know THAT it exists?
Simple question….
You're conflating exists with "being made" by a sentient being. They are not synonymous.
Nope…. Keep the concept simple…..if one sees, holds and something….does that one need to know how it came into existence to KNOW it exists?
Just stick to the basic point….
Say did you just try to insert a “straw man” here?
Regarding you comment about conflating…are trying to make a case that something can be “made” without the involvement of a sentient being?
Edit to add: gotta get some sleep….will check on this tomorrow
Nope:
From The Century Dictionary
made mād noun
Created; wrought; fabricated; constructed.
Artificially produced; formed independently of natural development: as, made ground (ground made up of earth from another place); a made word. Drawn from various sources; formed of several parts or ingredients: as, a made dish; composite; built up: as, a made mast (a mast composed of several sticks bound together by iron hoops, in contradistinction to a single-spar mast).
Concocted; invented; fictitious: as, a made-up tale or excuse.
Your many words simply divert from the main issue…
So, you seem to have hinted at something and I would like to see some clarification from you….
If one is confronted with something that is been “made” or “fashioned”…..can one conclude that a sentient being was involved in the action act if “making” it?
Words have meaning.
You are intentionally conflation words with different meanings to confuse the point.
Whoa.... lots of bobbing and weaving here.....
You seem to be willing to comment on others opinions yet here you are... starting topics and making statements that you refuse to acknowledge nor defend.
You made previous comments about hypocrisy and here you are..the kettle, calling the pot black. Whew!
So, first, the question that DBT runs away from.... simple, but both you and DBT avoid it.....
#1 "Must we know HOW something is made to know THAT it exists?"
I also tried to make it easier on the two of you... I restated: "...if one sees, holds a nd something... does one need to know HOW it came into existences to KNOW it exists?
This is ludicrously simple yet you two avoid it..... why?
You also objected to a previous wording of this question and implied that "conflation" paid a visit and the word "made" implied "being made by a sentient being". OK, that is a good comment, so I ask simply if there is evidence that something has been "made"... does that .... logically infer that a "sentient being was involved.
Again, very simple.... YOU brought this "sentient being" aspect up, not me.
The tax collector said: “Lord Jesus, have mercy on me, a sinner.” Jesus said he went home “justified.”
Here’s my two cents worth. I was raised Catholic but since then nothing one way or the other. Now about a month ago I had a thought so evil that I came to a realization. There has to be an evil spirit or devil to put such thoughts into an average fellow. Because of this I now know there must be a God. You guys can argue all you want about stuff like heaven or hell but after this happened I know there is a greater power. The End! Edk
That is most understandable.
You suffer from the same delusion. What's a greater power? You two use the same definitions or like the warm and fuzzy that it gives you irrespective?
(BTW, you'll need to have a quiet chat with antlers about sentence structure - he provided one without a valid arguement and I had to edit it for him to strong man his arguement. Haven't heard from him since.)
Mauserand9 what a faker you are - the delusional hypocrite - constantly trying to invent some basis for your attacks. This is another fail.
To tell a person that what he says is understandable is a statement about analysis and comprehension - that the message makes some sense. That has nothing to do with definitions, a greater power, argument, support or denial of a position. How sick must you be to feel that your made up stuff can be a basis on which to attack others? That is bona fide delusion. Check your false spelling of argument and be careful about the sticky paper.
Meh...sharing someone else's delusion adds nothing to its significance or importance. Deflecting and avoidance are very telling however, and your modus operandi. You act like a noisy blind moth around an imaginary flame.
You are plagiarizing - merely repeating what so many have noticed in your behavior and posted here. It's the "looking in the mirror" effect. If it were your self-criticism it could be a good sign - but unlikely. What was that elementary school playground word - copycat?
LOL!!! Another Class Clown fail. If you'd spent less time being a wanker you may have achieved something purposeful in your life - being a troll must suck.
If it weren't for your habitual plagiarizing, empty and meaningless crass ad hom attacks on others would constitute your repertoire.
I don't believe that's an accurate representation of his position,…
Of course you don’t. You’ve arrived at your beliefs based on what you find attractive; your beliefs have zero to do with proof.
Originally Posted by antelope_sniper
…and even if it was, that's fine, he and I can have different interpretations of the implication of the facts at hand. Either way, the 4 gospels remain anonymous works.
And you and I can have different interpretations of the implications of the facts at hand as well.
There’s NO WAY that you can be certain that Homer was the actual author of the Iliad. And there’s NO WAY that you can be certain that Herodotus was the actual author of History. And there’s NO WAY that you can be certain that Plato was the actual author of Tetralogies. And there’s NO WAY that you can be certain that Caesar was the actual author of Gallic Wars.
Actually, we know the Iliad was most certainly NOT written by a single "Homer". It was revised, changed and edited by multiple authors over a period of 100+ years.
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
Incidentally, Iliad was written in 800 BC and the earliest manuscript we have dates to 400 BC. That’s a time gap of 400 years…! And History was written between 480 - 425 BC and the earliest manuscript we have dates to the 10th century. That’s a time gap of 1,350 years…! And Tetralogies was written in 400 BC and the earliest manuscript we have dates to 895. That’s a time gap of 1,300 years…! And Gallic Wars was written between 100 - 44 BC and the earliest manuscript we have dates to the 9th century. That’s a time gap of 950 years…!
The New Testament was written between 50 - 100 AD and the earliest manuscript we have dates to no later than 130 AD. That’s a time gap of 40 years.
130 AD?? Unless that's a very recent find, it's just not true.
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
You seem to be willing to comment on others opinions yet here you are... starting topics and making statements that you refuse to acknowledge nor defend.
You made previous comments about hypocrisy and here you are..the kettle, calling the pot black. Whew!
So, first, the question that DBT runs away from.... simple, but both you and DBT avoid it.....
#1 "Must we know HOW something is made to know THAT it exists?"
I also tried to make it easier on the two of you... I restated: "...if one sees, holds a nd something... does one need to know HOW it came into existences to KNOW it exists?
This is ludicrously simple yet you two avoid it..... why?
You also objected to a previous wording of this question and implied that "conflation" paid a visit and the word "made" implied "being made by a sentient being". OK, that is a good comment, so I ask simply if there is evidence that something has been "made"... does that .... logically infer that a "sentient being was involved.
Again, very simple.... YOU brought this "sentient being" aspect up, not me.
I've already called out the word game you are playing and why it doesn't prove what you think it proves.
The universe exists.
We do not know how it came to exist.
That does not mean "god did it".
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
Here’s my two cents worth. I was raised Catholic but since then nothing one way or the other. Now about a month ago I had a thought so evil that I came to a realization. There has to be an evil spirit or devil to put such thoughts into an average fellow. Because of this I now know there must be a God. You guys can argue all you want about stuff like heaven or hell but after this happened I know there is a greater power. The End! Edk
That is most understandable.
You suffer from the same delusion. What's a greater power? You two use the same definitions or like the warm and fuzzy that it gives you irrespective?
(BTW, you'll need to have a quiet chat with antlers about sentence structure - he provided one without a valid arguement and I had to edit it for him to strong man his arguement. Haven't heard from him since.)
Mauserand9 what a faker you are - the delusional hypocrite - constantly trying to invent some basis for your attacks. This is another fail.
To tell a person that what he says is understandable is a statement about analysis and comprehension - that the message makes some sense. That has nothing to do with definitions, a greater power, argument, support or denial of a position. How sick must you be to feel that your made up stuff can be a basis on which to attack others? That is bona fide delusion. Check your false spelling of argument and be careful about the sticky paper.
Meh...sharing someone else's delusion adds nothing to its significance or importance. Deflecting and avoidance are very telling however, and your modus operandi. You act like a noisy blind moth around an imaginary flame.
You are plagiarizing - merely repeating what so many have noticed in your behavior and posted here. It's the "looking in the mirror" effect. If it were your self-criticism it could be a good sign - but unlikely. What was that elementary school playground word - copycat?
LOL!!! Another Class Clown fail. If you'd spent less time being a wanker you may have achieved something purposeful in your life - being a troll must suck.
If it weren't for your habitual plagiarizing, empty and meaningless crass ad hom attacks on others would constitute your repertoire.
Same old, same old...I guess you learned little while sitting in the dunce corner for all those years. Crying shame.
Originally Posted by mauserand9mm
Originally Posted by mauserand9mm
Originally Posted by Raspy
Whatever you said...everyone knows you are a lying jerk.
That's a bold assertion. Point out where you think I lied.
I'm not just a copy cat believer in God and Jesus and the Holy Spirit like so many so-called christians. I've had PLENTY of time under a welding hood to ponder things over the last 40 years burning wire, including this subject.
I believe in spiritual destiny. That being everyone of us is here for a reason and on the exact path we are supposed to follow. The good, the bad, the indifferent, and the downright evil m'effers. Everything, and everyone is interconnected and what we do with our lives matters to those we come in contact with, however that is across the span of our lives. Maybe we don't see it, maybe we will never even know it, but it all matters. When God's Grace happens, and good things are bestowed upon us, or someone else, we are supposed to recognize it and be grateful. When something bad happens, we are supposed to look at it, in it, around it, for something, anything that has meaning to our own individual existence here, and do what we can to help those that have been hurt.
If you can't fathom any of that with an open free thinking mind, without it being spelled out in every minute detail ad nauseum, then you need to go spend your own 40 years under a welding hood. Your existence here, and the life you are living, is not random, or irrelevant.
I also believe this Great Nation was founded with Divine Providence. How else could a rag tag bunch of farmers defeat the most powerful and well funded military force on the planet, and go on to devise the best and most fair system of self governance ever thought up in the history of mankind. That was squarely the hand of God.
I am perfectly content with my beliefs.
Your delusion runs deep. You typed plenty, pity it doesn't mean a whole lot in reality.
Originally Posted by mauserand9mm
Originally Posted by mauserand9mm
Originally Posted by Raspy
Whatever you said...everyone knows you are a lying jerk.
That's a bold assertion. Point out where you think I lied.
Incidentally, Iliad was written in 800 BC and the earliest manuscript we have dates to 400 BC. That’s a time gap of 400 years…! And History was written between 480 - 425 BC and the earliest manuscript we have dates to the 10th century. That’s a time gap of 1,350 years…! And Tetralogies was written in 400 BC and the earliest manuscript we have dates to 895. That’s a time gap of 1,300 years…! And Gallic Wars was written between 100 - 44 BC and the earliest manuscript we have dates to the 9th century. That’s a time gap of 950 years…!
The New Testament was written between 50 - 100 AD and the earliest manuscript we have dates to no later than 130 AD. That’s a time gap of 40 years.
Originally Posted by antelope_sniper
130 AD?? Unless that's a very recent find, it's just not true.
You clearly don't want to believe the truth ~ you clearly want the truth to be what you believe.
ALL of the books of the New Testament were written within a lifetime of the death of Jesus. Period.
The truth is nothing to be pissed about,...it's just the truth. I didn’t make it the truth,...it just *is*. It'd still be the truth if I never even mentioned it.
I don't believe that's an accurate representation of his position,…
Of course you don’t. You’ve arrived at your beliefs based on what you find attractive; your beliefs have zero to do with proof.
Originally Posted by antelope_sniper
…and even if it was, that's fine, he and I can have different interpretations of the implication of the facts at hand. Either way, the 4 gospels remain anonymous works.
And you and I can have different interpretations of the implications of the facts at hand as well.
There’s NO WAY that you can be certain that Homer was the actual author of the Iliad. And there’s NO WAY that you can be certain that Herodotus was the actual author of History. And there’s NO WAY that you can be certain that Plato was the actual author of Tetralogies. And there’s NO WAY that you can be certain that Caesar was the actual author of Gallic Wars.
Actually, we know the Iliad was most certainly NOT written by a single "Homer". It was revised, changed and edited by multiple authors over a period of 100+ years.
AS: How is it that Antlers hasn't put you on ignore? I was going to send him a PM and was informed I couldn't. I am wounded to the bone. I believe in Jesus and his teachings and you are best (or worst) an agnostic but it is me that he throws aside. Life isn't fair.
Patriotism (and religion) is the last refuge of a scoundrel.
ALL of the books of the New Testament were written within a lifetime of the death of Jesus. Period.
LOL!!!! Even if that were true, so what? People can make up stories at any time. Anonymous authors, no eyewitnesses, no limit to the departure from reality.
Originally Posted by mauserand9mm
Originally Posted by mauserand9mm
Originally Posted by Raspy
Whatever you said...everyone knows you are a lying jerk.
That's a bold assertion. Point out where you think I lied.
I don't believe that's an accurate representation of his position,…
Of course you don’t. You’ve arrived at your beliefs based on what you find attractive; your beliefs have zero to do with proof.
Originally Posted by antelope_sniper
…and even if it was, that's fine, he and I can have different interpretations of the implication of the facts at hand. Either way, the 4 gospels remain anonymous works.
And you and I can have different interpretations of the implications of the facts at hand as well.
There’s NO WAY that you can be certain that Homer was the actual author of the Iliad. And there’s NO WAY that you can be certain that Herodotus was the actual author of History. And there’s NO WAY that you can be certain that Plato was the actual author of Tetralogies. And there’s NO WAY that you can be certain that Caesar was the actual author of Gallic Wars.
Actually, we know the Iliad was most certainly NOT written by a single "Homer". It was revised, changed and edited by multiple authors over a period of 100+ years.
AS: How is it that Antlers hasn't put you on ignore? I was going to send him a PM and was informed I couldn't. I am wounded to the bone. I believe in Jesus and his teachings and you are best (or worst) an agnostic but it is me that he throws aside. Life isn't fair.
You're the wrong type of Christian, even worse than an atheist.
Originally Posted by mauserand9mm
Originally Posted by mauserand9mm
Originally Posted by Raspy
Whatever you said...everyone knows you are a lying jerk.
That's a bold assertion. Point out where you think I lied.
Incidentally, Iliad was written in 800 BC and the earliest manuscript we have dates to 400 BC. That’s a time gap of 400 years…! And History was written between 480 - 425 BC and the earliest manuscript we have dates to the 10th century. That’s a time gap of 1,350 years…! And Tetralogies was written in 400 BC and the earliest manuscript we have dates to 895. That’s a time gap of 1,300 years…! And Gallic Wars was written between 100 - 44 BC and the earliest manuscript we have dates to the 9th century. That’s a time gap of 950 years…!
The New Testament was written between 50 - 100 AD and the earliest manuscript we have dates to no later than 130 AD. That’s a time gap of 40 years.
Originally Posted by antelope_sniper
130 AD?? Unless that's a very recent find, it's just not true.
You clearly don't want to believe the truth ~ you clearly want the truth to be what you believe.
ALL of the books of the New Testament were written within a lifetime of the death of Jesus. Period.
The truth is nothing to be pissed about,...it's just the truth. I didn’t make it the truth,...it just *is*. It'd still be the truth if I never even mentioned it.
Except the part where it's not even close to the truth.
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
I don't believe that's an accurate representation of his position,…
Of course you don’t. You’ve arrived at your beliefs based on what you find attractive; your beliefs have zero to do with proof.
Originally Posted by antelope_sniper
…and even if it was, that's fine, he and I can have different interpretations of the implication of the facts at hand. Either way, the 4 gospels remain anonymous works.
And you and I can have different interpretations of the implications of the facts at hand as well.
There’s NO WAY that you can be certain that Homer was the actual author of the Iliad. And there’s NO WAY that you can be certain that Herodotus was the actual author of History. And there’s NO WAY that you can be certain that Plato was the actual author of Tetralogies. And there’s NO WAY that you can be certain that Caesar was the actual author of Gallic Wars.
Actually, we know the Iliad was most certainly NOT written by a single "Homer". It was revised, changed and edited by multiple authors over a period of 100+ years.
AS: How is it that Antlers hasn't put you on ignore? I was going to send him a PM and was informed I couldn't. I am wounded to the bone. I believe in Jesus and his teachings and you are best (or worst) an agnostic but it is me that he throws aside. Life isn't fair.
Well, it's hard to say, only he knows for sure, but I'll try to make my best guess.
You've done your best to read the Bible honestly, and in the process notices some significant divergences between the gospels and writing of "Paul". (I put Paul in quotes because we know not all the works attributed to him were written by the same hand.) As a result you've chosen to set aside this portion of the NT as non-canonical for your personal faith.
For many Christian this would create a heavy load of cognitive dissidence. It's often held that God is essentially perfect, and the Bible is his perfect work. But if Bible is so imperfect that reasonable, well intended Christians are setting aside great swaths of it, is it really perfect, and what does that say about their God? Now if an atheist is saying it, well, that's easy to ignore, but from a fellow Christian, that can be different.
For some, this is not something they wish to contemplate so they hide it way behind an ignore function.
Is that what happened here? I don't know. But I've quoted you here for Antler's to see, and it's up to him to decide if he wished to reach out and perhaps have a private discussion with you.
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
For the honest skeptics, as opposed to those who dismiss offhand the existence of well-established historical documents simply because it’s associated with Jesus and Christianity (which they clearly do not like):
• You have access to the Gospel accounts. • You have a bunch of people who claim to have known a man named Jesus, eaten and traveled and talked with him for years. • They claimed He was a great teacher and person who initiated a new movement that reconciled people to God. • And they claimed He did supernatural acts. They clearly believed He could do miracles. And they claimed to have seen them. • And they claimed He was God. • You have a group of people swearing up and down that it’s true. They’re willing to provide details, eyewitnesses, specific quotes, names and dates and places. • Every one of the writers went to their graves swearing up and down that every word is the Gospel truth.
I'm not just a copy cat believer in God and Jesus and the Holy Spirit like so many so-called christians. I've had PLENTY of time under a welding hood to ponder things over the last 40 years burning wire, including this subject.
I believe in spiritual destiny. That being everyone of us is here for a reason and on the exact path we are supposed to follow. The good, the bad, the indifferent, and the downright evil m'effers. Everything, and everyone is interconnected and what we do with our lives matters to those we come in contact with, however that is across the span of our lives. Maybe we don't see it, maybe we will never even know it, but it all matters. When God's Grace happens, and good things are bestowed upon us, or someone else, we are supposed to recognize it and be grateful. When something bad happens, we are supposed to look at it, in it, around it, for something, anything that has meaning to our own individual existence here, and do what we can to help those that have been hurt.
If you can't fathom any of that with an open free thinking mind, without it being spelled out in every minute detail ad nauseum, then you need to go spend your own 40 years under a welding hood. Your existence here, and the life you are living, is not random, or irrelevant.
I also believe this Great Nation was founded with Divine Providence. How else could a rag tag bunch of farmers defeat the most powerful and well funded military force on the planet, and go on to devise the best and most fair system of self governance ever thought up in the history of mankind. That was squarely the hand of God.
I am perfectly content with my beliefs.
Your delusion runs deep. You typed plenty, pity it doesn't mean a whole lot in reality.
And you're doing a FANTASTIC job following YOUR destined path.
I prefer peace. But if trouble must come, let it come in my time, so that my children may live in peace. ~~ Thomas Paine
Our Easter celebration was a success. Lots of first time kids/families, as well as our regular group. Our new preacher did an excellent job, as did all our volunteers. We went home a tired congregation! Next big event will be Vacation Bible School. Several churches in our are had Easter programs today as well. Some churches have theirs next week. Just a snapshot of Christianity in rural N.C.
For the honest skeptics, as opposed to those who dismiss offhand the existence of well-established historical documents simply because it’s associated with Jesus and Christianity (which they clearly do not like):
• You have access to the Gospel accounts. • You have a bunch of people who claim to have known a man named Jesus, eaten and traveled and talked with him for years. • They claimed He was a great teacher and person who initiated a new movement that reconciled people to God. • And they claimed He did supernatural acts. They clearly believed He could do miracles. And they claimed to have seen them. • And they claimed He was God. • You have a group of people swearing up and down that it’s true. They’re willing to provide details, eyewitnesses, specific quotes, names and dates and places. • Every one of the writers went to their graves swearing up and down that every word is the Gospel truth.
Read em’ and make up your own mind.
I've also read the one's where The Cross flies and talks and Jesus kills and resurrects his playmates as a child, and the one where Judas is the hero of the story.
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
You seem to be willing to comment on others opinions yet here you are... starting topics and making statements that you refuse to acknowledge nor defend.
You made previous comments about hypocrisy and here you are..the kettle, calling the pot black. Whew!
So, first, the question that DBT runs away from.... simple, but both you and DBT avoid it.....
#1 "Must we know HOW something is made to know THAT it exists?"
I also tried to make it easier on the two of you... I restated: "...if one sees, holds a nd something... does one need to know HOW it came into existences to KNOW it exists?
This is ludicrously simple yet you two avoid it..... why?
You also objected to a previous wording of this question and implied that "conflation" paid a visit and the word "made" implied "being made by a sentient being". OK, that is a good comment, so I ask simply if there is evidence that something has been "made"... does that .... logically infer that a "sentient being was involved.
Again, very simple.... YOU brought this "sentient being" aspect up, not me.
I've already called out the word game you are playing and why it doesn't prove what you think it proves.
The universe exists.
We do not know how it came to exist.
That does not mean "god did it".
So, you make assumptions of what I said in the discussions... then argue against a point I never made regarding these two HOW/KNOW postings. What kind of conflating... or ...straw man or red herring is that?
You use the same word twisting you castigate others for.....
Since you have brought God into the discussion, let's run with that for a bit....ok
You did say that the universe does indeed exist and further state that "That does not mean 'god did it'."
BUT, the current view of the "astrophysicists" of today all seem to believe that the universe had a "sudden" and dramatic beginning. Big Bang or "everything everywhere all at once" is what I read being talked about. Some how SOMETHING happened and the Universe just came into being....Right? (And don't give me that Magic Larry nonsense about the "Universe from Nothing." He's been proven to be a degenerate fraud and a self serving book seller.)
So, SOMETHING happened and the UNIVERSE is just suddenly.... HERE. Of course, there those that would say, "Well we don't HOW the universe began, but we KNOW that it did." It did indeed come into existence... but HOW is an important question.
Now... let me state as I understand YOUR meaning ..... You said.. paraphrased.... .."If there is evidence that something has been MADE, that implies the involvement of a sentient being."
So, let me ask all who are reading this post..... Do you see in the world around you..... the stars, landscapes, oceans, deserts, plants, animals and of course ...us humans.....Do you see evidence that this world and this universe has been MADE?
Many have posted on this thread that they sense a "sentient being" when they behold nature, the stars and the world. I agree.
So there are really two logical choices when one regards the origin of all we see in this world today.... A or B
A - "Everything we see came from Nothing and we literally have no idea of how or why."
B - A great and almighty powerful "sentient being" MADE the Universe and this World and US.
I, as do many of you..... vote "B"
Last edited by TF49; 03/23/24.
The tax collector said: “Lord Jesus, have mercy on me, a sinner.” Jesus said he went home “justified.”
You seem to be willing to comment on others opinions yet here you are... starting topics and making statements that you refuse to acknowledge nor defend.
You made previous comments about hypocrisy and here you are..the kettle, calling the pot black. Whew!
So, first, the question that DBT runs away from.... simple, but both you and DBT avoid it.....
#1 "Must we know HOW something is made to know THAT it exists?"
I also tried to make it easier on the two of you... I restated: "...if one sees, holds a nd something... does one need to know HOW it came into existences to KNOW it exists?
This is ludicrously simple yet you two avoid it..... why?
You also objected to a previous wording of this question and implied that "conflation" paid a visit and the word "made" implied "being made by a sentient being". OK, that is a good comment, so I ask simply if there is evidence that something has been "made"... does that .... logically infer that a "sentient being was involved.
Again, very simple.... YOU brought this "sentient being" aspect up, not me.
I've already called out the word game you are playing and why it doesn't prove what you think it proves.
The universe exists.
We do not know how it came to exist.
That does not mean "god did it".
So, you make assumptions of what I said in the discussions... then argue against a point I never made regarding these two HOW/KNOW postings. What kind of conflating... or ...straw man or red herring is that?
You use the same word twisting you castigate others for.....
Since you have brought God into the discussion, let's run with that for a bit....ok
You did say that the universe does indeed exist and further state that "That does not mean 'god did it'."
BUT, the current view of the "astrophysicists" of today all seem to believe that the universe had a "sudden" and dramatic beginning. Big Bang or "everything everywhere all at once" is what I read being talked about. Some how SOMETHING happened and the Universe just came into being....Right? (And don't give me that Magic Larry nonsense about the "Universe from Nothing." He's been proven to be a degenerate a fraud and just a self serving book seller.)
So, SOMTHING happened and the UNIVERSE is just suddenly HERE. Of course, there those that would say, "Well we don't HOW the universe began, but we KNOW that it did." It did indeed come into existence... but HOW is indeed an intriguing question.
Now... let me state as I understand YOUR meaning ..... You said.. paraphrased.... .."If there is evidence that something has been MADE, that implies the involvement of a sentient being."
So, let me ask all who are reading this post..... Do you see in the world around you..... the landscapes, oceans, deserts, plants, animals and of course ...us humans.....Do you see evidence that this world and this universe has been MADE?
Many have posted on this thread that they sense a "sentient being" when they behold nature, the stars and the world. I agree.
So there are really two logical choices when one regards the origin of all we see in this world today.... A or B
A - "Everything we see came from Nothing and we literally have no idea of how or why."
B - A great and almighty powerful "sentient being" MADE the Universe and this World and US.
I ,as do many of you..... vote "B"
You're wrong about the current understand of The Big Bang and it's implication for the early universe:
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
