Home Forums Hunting & Shooting General Big Game Poll: Do you hunt with a round in the chamber?

Most revolvers, single or double action, don't have a "safety" as such. Many double action autos don't have a safety lever, button, toggle, etc. either.

Klik,

Good post...

What has given this thread (as well as the thread that spawned it) it's "legs" was indeed that some of the more.... vociferous members of the cold-carry crowd were indeed saying that it was irresponsible or downright dangerous to hunt with a chambered weapon. Comments were made to the effect that we should "stay out of the woods", or "please don't teach you children how to use a gun", stuff like that...

It WAS ridiculous, I agree!

-jeff

Medicman
"...If with partner uncocked. Cocking a cock on open bolt is only a matter of raising and lowering bolt handle which is easily done on way to shoulder."

That is a serious mistake... The pin is now resting on a live primer, with serious force behind it. Banging the end of the pin, or perhaps the rifle could possibly ignite that primer...
art

Jeff -

I thought we were talking about hunting weapons used in the pursuit of legal game rather than defensive weapons, so the Glock and Kahr are rather irrelevant in my opinion. That said, a fair number of police have managed to shoot themselves or their coworkers with Glocks, so you have a point. You pull the trigger and they go bang - but only when loaded in the chamber.

As to your contention that fewer people would be shot if we legislated that everyone hunt with a loaded (in the chamber) firearm as opposed to an unloaded (in the chamber again) firearm, it simply defies logic in my opinion.

Take a look at where shooting accidents occur. Many are due to misidentification of the target. In my sample of Google hits I would say MOST rifle related shootings fit in this category. According to Texas, however, shotguns are the most common problem overall, accounting for 55% of shooting accidents while hunting in 2003 - the problem being people don't make sure the shooting lane is clear. That same year 38% of the hunting related shooting accidents involved a rifle, 5% involved a handgun, and 2% involved bow-and-arrow. The report, interstingly, stated that only about 20% of the shooting incidents involved people (shooters) who had taken hunter safety classes.


My google search found far too many instances of misidentified targets to mention, and too many incidents of shotgunners peppering someone else while shooting game, but here are a few other incidents I found:
* a man shot himself with his handgun while climbing over a fence
* a man was shot when his dog stepped on a loaded shotgun in the bed of a truck
* a man shot a friend while putting a rifle in his truck he thought was unloaded
* a man killed his son when a loaded rifle on an ATV slipped and discharged
* a man was shot by his 9 year-old nephew while sitting in a blind (apparently no geese around at the time)
* a youth was shot by an adult with a .22 while hunting (but apparently not while shooting game)
* a man was killed by his own rifle after he dropped it off a 12 foot rock outcropping while switching to his shotgun to shoot a fox
* a man slipped on a wooden ladder attached to a tree stand and shot and killed himself
* a man was killed when a child climbed onto an ATV that had a shotgun strapped to it
* a man dropped his muzzleloader which resulted in it discharging and killing him
* a kid shot his brother while unloading a .22 after having taken shots at game
* and so on.

In each case an unloaded chamber would have prevented mishap, but I was unable to find any case in which an unloaded chamber was involved in an accidental shooting. Go figure.

You posited earlier in this thread that people loading their firearms just prior to shooting might lead to an increase in accidents due to the stress of the moment. I could find no occurance of this happening in my Google search so I submit that while it may happen on occasion it is not as nearly common as incidents that arise from having an already loaded chamber.

The facts are that poor firearm handling technique is common as dirt and accidents happen - which can and often do lead to accidental shootings when a loaded firearm is involved. When unloaded firearms are involved you will still have poor firearms handling techniques and accidents, but at least the accidental shootings are eliminated.

CH,

Thanks for the well-thought post...

2 comments then I'll leave it to others to comment (better than I can I mean).

First, you are correct that an unloaded chamber won't kill anyone. But my point was, a significant number of gun accidents occur when people just "know" that the gun was unloaded (the ultimate unchambered, yeah?) but in fact, it wasn't. Obviously, those are careless people- no argument there. My point is not that a loaded chamber is safer than an empty one on some sort of physics level, 'cause it ain't. My point is that people get careless when they think the gun is not loaded. During the course of a day, with game around, I can certainly imagine a gun being chambered and then unchambered (maybe, and that's the point) several times. That's got serious potential for problems.

Second comment... only 3 of your examples happened during what I mean by "hunting". Hunting is being in the woods, game on, killing mode on... Riding in an ATV is a CLASSIC empty-chamber scenario; so is climbing a tree or crossing a fence, or having your gun in the back of your truck with the dog flailing around. That's common sense and I'm sure you agree. Personally, any time there's a "force multiplier" like a long drop, a horse, an ATV, etc involved... the rifle should be unloaded IMHO. Because the operator cannot control the muzzle, and because the physical stresses that the rifle could be subject to go far, far beyond just falling on your butt in a clearcut.

I truly believe that a lot of this is just regional. If I were lucky enough to hunt with an empty-chamber guy in, say, Wyoming or Arizona where there was really not a lot of chance of killing animals in tight quarters, but the idea was rather to spot them from far away and then work closer, I would have no problem carrying cold if the person I was with was really hung up on that. On the other hand, I don't care what other folks have said- there is NO WAY some of the deer I have killed would have been tagged if I had to chamber a round. No way. And thinking through them (I've only killed 16 so I can remember them all), the added need to chamber a round would have been one more thing to deal with- in a negative way, a potentially unsafe way.

And you don't get many 2nd chances hunting our 18% blacktail tag in Oregon, either, which ties into things too. On a practical level, in areas like Calvin described when he talked about "taking out a visiting buddy who killed a nice 3x3 and two forkies for the freezer" (not an exact quote) missing out on a buck is obviously not a big deal. Around here, it is...

In the final analysis it comes down to safe gun handling. I think it's possible to be a safe gun handler in the woods with a loaded chamber. Others don't... to each their own.

Thanks again, I respect your opinion and enjoyed reading your post.

-jeff

It's alive.........IT'S ALIVE!

In a vegetative state, though.

Yes, I hunt with a full magazine and a round in the chamber, safety on. When crossing a fence I hold my dad's gun while he climbs over, then hand both guns over to him and climb over myself.

Mmmm... love that avatar, Ironbender!

I think it's in a coma, but having the same dream... over, and over, and over....

-jeff

Just look how skiddish whitetails react to the release of a bow string. It would be hard for me to throw one in the tube and get a shot off in the split second they give you. Rule of thumb, If the muzzle isnt pointed at the target make sure its pointed at the ground.

Jeff -
IMHO the "ultimate unchambered" is a firearm that truly has an enmpty chamber, not one that is mistakenly believed to be empty. People get carelss around guns, loaded or unloaded.

There is indeed a potential for problems when chambering or unchambering a round, which is just one reason I often leave my firearms with an empty chamber until a loaded chamber is actually needed or I believe that the need will soon be forthcoming. Your comment about "CLASSIC empty-chamber" scenarios demonstrates one of the fallacies of your argument that people might be safer if they hunted with loaded chambers - if people loaded up every chance they got only to unload again in such situations, then reloaded again after the situation has passed, often repeating this cycle several times thoughout the day, there would be many more opportunities for people to get injured during the load/unload processes.

I understand that many hunting situations are not conducive to loading a firearm's chamber immediately before taking a shot. That's one reason I don't make any claims that everyone should hunt with an unloaded chamber, nor do I always hunt that way myself.

Unfortunately, as I said, poor gun handling is common as dirt. Unloaded chambers are the only antidote that has 100% success.

Coyote Hunter,

To be clear, I'm not making a blanket statement that people would be safer with loaded chambers. I should have been more clear about that; it's late in this debate... I'm just pointing out that the empty-chamber scenario isn't all perfect. I'm saying there is a reasonable counter-argument to the claim that we would all be safer with unloaded chambers. There's still going to be plenty of accidents. The difference between the two scenarios would be small in the end, I bet.

But, I'm not saying that that leads to "everyone should be running around with loaded chambers", either. There are plenty of times a gun should be unloaded or unchambered...

...Just not in my hands, when I'm hunting my critters on my turf <g>! :-) That's my only beef- being told that I'm unsafe in the woods carrying hot. Ain't so. And by their actions, about 75% of the Campfire agrees with that, BTW.

-jeff

Jeff -

My point is the empty chamber scenario IS perfect when it comes to shootings - its only when the chamber is loaded that people run into problems.

Looks like we agree that, at least for ourselves, there are times where it is appropriate to hunt hot and times when a cold chamber is better. We just disagree as to the specifics, which is fine. Each individual has to chose for themselves.

As far as what others think, its never been much of a concern to me. Prior to the mid-1800's I'll bet you'd have found that 75% of the whites in the south thought slavery was OK, and the US Supreme Court agreed with them at one time. Throughout history there are lots of examples of the masses being wrong.

AD shooting accidents in hunting situations occur when firearms handlers THINK the chamber is empty and they either act carelessly or violate safe firearms handling procedures..esp muzzle direction-control, identification of target and background for the shot.

That and poor transportation procedures.

IF one conducts himself properly and considers the firearm hot, he will either make good judgements in carrying hot or unload and positively verify safe.

There is no wiggle room on safety...
Every 'accident' is preventable even when we know the risks and take them intelligently.Jim

Most accidental shootings, as near as I can ascertain, involve shotgun hunters unintentionally hitting bystanders. Fortunately, many of these cause little if any injury, although the potential is certainly there serious injury and death do occur as a result. The second most common cause appears to involve rifles and mistaken target identification. Accidental shootings do occur outside these situations but they seem to be a small percentage overall. In other words, the vast majority of 'shooting accidents' occur with guns that are known to be loaded and are intentionally fired.

One might rightfully consider that ALL accidental shootings are the result of poor gun handling technique and a loaded chamber. All other conditions are incidental, including slips, falls, weapon drops and so forth - the risks are always there, as anyone that has tripped over their own feet can attest. Its just that sometimes the risks are significantly greater than at other times.

The only way to positively prevent accidental shootings is to maintain an empty chamber, which works 100% of the time. People 'wiggle' on safety every time they load the chamber.

From my understandng,Turkey hunting is about the most dangerous type of hunting in reference to firearms and hunting. HUnters stakling callers and hunters mistaking that bright red /blue head.Can't imagine sitting in a turkey blind/concealed with a cold chamber though.

Nor can I. Hunting dense woods with an empty chamber doesn't generally make much sense to me either, although I've been know to do so at times - especially when the downfall is really thick and I'm spending all my time climbing over or under. Good time to have a levergun...

Nor can I imagine turkey hunting "cold". DAMN those ugly birds can see and hear!!

-jeff

While looking for something else on F&G's website, I came across this. FYI.



LINK

I don't get to say this very often, so WITH GUSTO:

Pot Stirrer!!

:-)

-jeff