We are having a little dustup on this subject on another thread... I'll go grab a link to that thread for anyone who wants to check it out, or heck, join the fray.

I will go first: yes, I hunt with a round in the chamber.

-jeff

Here's a link to the... uh... cordial discussion we've been having. The fun starts at about page 2.

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/1792859/page/0/fpart/1

-jeff

A rifle with out a round chambered is ..... a stick. You can carry a stick or a rifle your choice.

Wow, this place is just full of gems of wisdom... Please, teach me more!

I've been big game hunting for 40 years. Never even thought of hiking or stalking without a round in the chamber. What kind of question is that?

Already have 4 pages on the topic.
https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/1792415/page/1/fpart/1

Jeff, I also hunt with around in the chamber.
I learned to shoot and hunt with an old .22 bolt action Single Shot Springfield that didn't have a safety.
Dad and Granddad started teaching me proper gun handleing at age 5. And my God help me if I got sloppy.

Never do...

I've hunted 24 years and have always had a round in the chamber. I saw the pictures that were posted of the "nasty" terrain found in SE Alaska. Big friggen deal,I've hunted areas in Western Washington that were worse that that stuff.

I must be an acrobat though,I don't spend much time on my ass when hunting it. I guess if you pay attention to what you're doing you stay upright.

I load my M1 put a few extra en blocs in my pockets and run through the woods blasting at any thing that moves and is brown!

Now why would I not load my gun when I am running throught the woods, it's the charge of the light brigade!

Depending on the situation, I have done both. When hunting steep, rough or slick terrain I will not have a round chambered. On a stand, in a blind or when making a final stalk I will have one chambered with the safety on. If it's a guided hunt I always ask my guide what he prefers.

Mike

The area i hunt here is crawling with grizz , always have a round in the chamber.

Considering I hunt and work in grizzly country, I'm always carrying "hot". However, if the situation calls for it, I'll uncock the rifle, or in extreme situations, empty the chamber.

I carry a round chambered, depending on the animal hunted, and the terrain. The other factor, is, did I leave my ammo, back at camp.

Ah, now I see why you call yourself "Blammer."

We're at about 90% chambered, which is about what I was expecting...

Carry on gents!

-jeff

Was there an actual poll, or are you just counting numbers? Just curious.

Oh... I forget there's a way to do an actual poll. Nope, I was just sort of tallying them up in my head. I'll do a more formal count later...

Sorry for the confusion!

-jeff

Ditto........except I don't Elk hunt...........yet!!!


On relatively smooth terrain (easy walking) why not have a round chambered??? Isn't that what a saftey is for???


It is a shame my "Butler Creek Scope Cap" thread got derailed on this topic!!!

Hey, you got two good pages of cordial discourse on the scope cap thing before it went all to heck. Whadaya want?

:-)

-jeff

__________________________________________________________
+10 on all counts..:)...tho for me it's over 50 years including mil service in combat with a rifle company..

No condom needed for my rifle muzzle either..:)
I spend my hunting time knowing where my hands, feet( arse) and rifle muzzle are..:) It's second nature so one can hunt..Jim

Never a round in the chamber when on a horse. On my own two feet, on the ground, you better believe the chamber is HOT.

Steve

Not usually. About the only time me and my hunting partners load up is just before we shoot or if we have reason to be wary, like walking up on a bear kill or dead animal or on final stalk for an animal we already spotted and checked out. It takes too damn long to tell if a moose or sheep is legal to worry abotu snap shooting anything and having lived and hunting here in alaska for quite some time I'm no longer under the illusion that there is a rabid bear behind every bush. I do always carry a loaded revovler in a chest holster though.

Hot, cocked & locked.

I do not. I will chamber one when I feel that pulling the trigger is imminent.

I should add, I don't trust safeties, especially Remington safeties.

Soon as I hit the tree line, chamber is loaded.

i hunt empty chamber.

Loaded...jorge

One thing that must be mentioned is that the terrain and quarry can dictate things to a degree. Where I hunt blacktail- and maybe someone like Jim in Oregon would concur, maybe not... anyway, the deer I kill are typically in very close quarters with me. 20-50 yards. Even the sound of the safety snicking off has alerted them to me before. So, point being, to chamber a round at that point would be very impractical- even if I was so inclined.

I think the people hunting in more open areas, where you might have almost unlimited time to set up a shot etc, should try to understand that things are real different in some other areas. If I was sitting on a hilltop glassing for miles... I could see how that guy might feel that it was not necessary to chamber a round.

Anyway, thanks for the civility, it's a breath of fresh air and, carry on!

-jeff

Fork I called in today, pretty much the stuff I hunt in...



Called in another like this one and managed to run 7 rounds through my lever and then loaded them all back into the magazine. All the time the deer watched me and I kept blowing the call.

Now we know the area I hunt, here is one that came to the call also. I had to chamber a round in the 99 and pop up the tang sight, all the time he was looking straight at me from MAYBE 30 yards.



Yep, another 99 deer, same drill as the previous deer, although the distance might have been 40 yards. Nothing in the chamber when he walked in...



Paul's deer, maybe 50 yards, yep he had to chamber one...



Every single one of these from last year required a round to be chambered and (GASP) Butler Creek's to be opened...



Taking bets, did I see this deer at 60 yards, eye [bleep] with bino's and then chamber a round and slay him?



I'm fortunate to hunt dumb game....

Oops, almost forgot, pull from canoe, flip Butler Creeks, chamber round, kneel and slay wolf whilst being watched by said doggie...

[img]http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b297/Shoalcove/Wolf/Me.jpg[/img]

Wanna see any of the dumb whitetails that allowed me to chamber a round before killing them?

would those be sitka blacktails in a rainforest?

Yep, but they must either be stupid or I don't move around like a retard with taser in my ass.

Fluid motion, wind, and a little bit of calling can grant a man much...

A buck in rut ain't too smart, you ought to know dat.

Just funning with ya so don't go weird on me.

MtnHtr

A hardon will take a man places he wouldn't go with a machine gun! Agreed.........

Loaded.

Just to ease the mind, this one was looking HARD at me whilst Paul was hitting the call so he didn't take two steps into some silly [bleep]. Since it was early August and in velvet that should remove the rut factor.....



You know the drill, scope covers, chamber, kneel for shot, blah, blah...

My turn.. All these shot in the last 10 days. No hot rifles and all rifles wearing flip-ups. All within 100 yards. Most shot by the kids I take out. Funny how a 15 year old can understand the concept of a hot rifle. A few more bucks were taken, but I didn't get a pictures as I lost my digital camera. If you want to try "hard", try taking an 11 y/o in tow with an attention span of 15 minutes.

I'll be gunning solo the next 2 weeks. Empty chamber.

[img][IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v725/joelst99/jasoncompbuck.jpg[/img][/img]
[img][IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v725/joelst99/joelstrappingupforkhorn.jpg[/img][/img]

Whatever works for you, Steelie..:)
I know what 'works' for me..:) Jim

Pushfeed

Conquest

Swarovski

Partition

If I'm doing something during which I'd be willing to shoot, the chamber is loaded. If I am somewhere I'd be unwilling to shoot, or doing something I'd be unwilling to shoot then the chamber is empty. What this boils down to is that a round is chambered unless I'm climbing over, under or around something, or am too close to camp.

Calvin,

Great pics of the young men and their deer!
Good on ya..for taking them out and teaching helping them..

NOT everyone should carry hot...and you have to start with young hunters right.

Some will and do carry hot( I do, ....my 14 YEAR OLD YOUNGEST SON DOESN'T) ..

It's your decision..and each of us live with their choices..

The thread was about who does what..not who teaches what...Jim

This discussion of carrying hot or empty has already been the subject of at least one long and vociferous thread some time ago..............

Must've been my smart-aleck comment about "Yuppie Flippie Uppie" scope covers that made things take a turn for the worse........

Between carrying cold, push button scope covers, twisty knobs on scopes, charts taped to the stocks, no wonder there's so many elk running around in Colorado........

Casey

Kind of ironic that in a place as "heavily populated" as Alaska, we have guys hunting empty. I gotta admit to carrying chamber empty, heavy mag (of course) while hunting most of the time. It's true there are occasions when I have the chamber loaded but I always feel a bit funny about that - and often it's not hunting, it's more often fishing. I suppose part of my quest not to kill myself or others with a rifle has to do with the fact that in these parts there are so many other ways to do it. That and the fact that unlike some who live where they move toward each other at over 100 miles per hour on a regular basis, that is not part of how I live so maybe I'm just a chicken.

I do understand how hunting in the thick stuff works and know how easily one could get shot or shot at. I recall on one occasion walking up on a fellow who I didn't see until I was about 30 feet away, perhaps less. He neither saw nor heard me. Had he been more aware and trigger happy, perhaps I wouldn't be telling this.

I'll happily run a rifle HOT next time in CO......

I was thinking the same. Funny how those in states that have 1 million hunters on opening day run hot, whilst I might see 1/2 dozen folks in a 6 month span, but I won't run hot.

OK. If your down this way, we'll find some elk together.


Casey

I always hunt with a loaded chamber. The only time I unload the chamber is when I am going up a tree and when the hunt is over. 3 Position safeties are safer in thick stuff IMO over a Remmy style, so I dont worry about an accidental safety flip. I feel that between the gun safety, the safety between my ears and safe gun handling, I wont have a problem...its worked for years!

And you won't have to worry about a thing cuzz my rifles all have safties and they are 100%.....

Well said Kimberman! Agree 100%.

-jeff

So in the middle of a fall when are you thinking about the landing, when are you thinking about gun control, when are you thinking you "I'll go to church next Sunday if I live" during all of that?

You are a machine Jeff.............

______________________________________________________________
So Steelhaid, not to single you out..:)

Why then, won't you carry a hunting rifle in hunting country when your are hunting with a cartridge chambered?

Afraid of falling on your arse after a hard nite of partying ...or snagging the triiger after placing the rifle on safe..( you thought) or forgetting to put the rifle on safe?...

With a FIREARM,..YOU ever had and accidental or unplanned discharge?
I haven't.

You do have some great pictures, BTW..

That 'dumb' wolf thot you were Farley Mowat from the tales his great grandmother told ..:)..:)


Wish I ...or most of us could hunt in the SE AK rain 20 some days of ANY month..:) Jim

You are a tool, Steelhead.

-jeff

I figured you would start talking about my tool, I can read sign....

So, Jeff. This is supposed to be a "Poll". Have you rolled any numbers for us?

No, let's let it roll a bit longer before I do that... maybe tomorrow, to get the guys who do internet at work? I'd say, top of my head, we are maybe 85/15 running "hot"...

We'll see soon...

-jeff

... and next time I'll figure out how to use the actual "poll" function...

:-/

-jeff

I could probably get you another 85/15 vote in your favor if there were more San Fran folks here.......

Most of my hunting is done where a quick unexpected shot is the norm, so yes I carry hot, but I don't carry guns that that make me nervous when carried hot. If it doesn't have a very good and positive safety, I don't use that gun.

Now, if I was hunting where it was dangerous, do to certain circumstances, like riding horseback, or maybe climbing in very rough country, I might take the round out of the chamber, and in very open country where a man usually has plenty of time to plan a shot, then I see no reason to carry hot.

Once I'm out of the vehicle, the firearms are loaded, rounds are chambered, and the safeties are put into the "safe" position and will stay that way unless I fire the weapons or have need to cross a fence or climb into a tree stand. There have only been a few times that I can recall not carrying a loaded weapon in the field and those few times have been dictated by the circumstances/situation, not by personal choice.

There are lots of folks whom I would prefer to go with an empty chamber if I was hunting with them, but I try to avoid those folks whenever possible.

Jeff

Klikitarik,



How big are your horns?

I've carried hot the past 27 years. I've also had time to take the round out of the chamber and dry fire on passed up bucks multiple times before they bug out. While elk hunting this season I had a front scope cap brake and the safty flip to fire while bashing through some brush. I had emptied the chamber when it started getting really bad, but it still got me thinking. Over the past few years I find myself clearing my weapon more often while hunting. I could adjust to hunting cold. As often as I get flagged by other hunters I wouldn't mind more guys hunting cold as well.

I do carry my 1911 cocked and locked.

What tool?You are the one posting your cure for your feminine itch.

Not sure why Jim, but that made me think of the now-infamous DEA agent in the school what shot his own self!

Rudy is leading the polls too.

I have a round chambered in most hunting situations, but I always empty the chamber for horseback, climbing into a stand, crossing a fence or stream etc. I am very careful of what my muzzle covers and always use rifles with very positive safeties. Still I always advice people to never trust a safety.

Hell, i even like WCB too much to accidentally shoot him.. i hunt empty chamber...

Same here and I've been doing it that way for 35 years since my dad taught me how to hunt. Sure the hunter's safety course taught otherwise and I did it to make them happy and went right back to the way my dad taught me. Nobody in our family has accidently killed anyone or even had a accidental discharge of a weapon in all of the combined time we've been hunting.

Same as one of the posters stated, 98% of the time I hunt empty chamber, the exceptions being walking up on a bear kill or a kill that's been left out over night, or digging a wounded bruin outa the brush etc.

Never been a problem to chamber a round, but then I don't usually walk through the woods with the chainsaw running when I'm going to cut wood. There's plenty of time to pull the cord when it's time to do the serious work.

Seems the mileage do vary, odd how prevalent it seems to be around these parts to hunt COLD. (grin, maybe a pun there)

I guess if I gave a chit how the majority do things I wouldn't have moved here. It all kinda comes together I guess.

To my way of thinking it's a courtesy extended to those you hunt with, if you hunt solo, who gives a rats azz what you do?

Check out the thread on accidental discharges on the hunting rifles forum, it looks like most who've experienced ADs had them when they flipped off the safety. Same thing happened to me 20 years ago, luckily, nothing was damaged.

Now, here are a few observations (besides the obvious never trust a safety):

1) You can't have an AD when flipping off the safety on an empty chamber.

2) If you handle the weapon safely, having an AD when flipping off the safety won't hurt anything.

3) Having an AD will sure enough change your thinking on carrying one in the chamber, and will make you glad you're a member of the cult of wearing underwear whilst hunting.

And I agree 100% with 1AK's last sentence above.

I carry my firearms "hot" when I hunt.

This was my 46th deer season and I hunt the rugged coastal range of the Willaimette valley in Oregon for deer but hunting has carried me far and wide.

My dad taught me to treat any firearm I have in my hand as if it is loaded and the the safety is off.

This is a matter of personal responsibility. I handle firearms constantly and I'm comfortable doing so. If you only pull "Old Deathwind" out of the closet once a year for a weekend hunt, as a responsible adult you have to assess your ability to handle a firearm safely and I applaud those of you who adhere to this.

Doc

An issue even bigger than carrying hot is one's attitude toward the safety itself. Sure, I can look at the mechanism and often see the "invincibility" of the device. Yet, experience tells me that there are a multitude of ways compromise just about anything. Guns, for all the lawyers that are (understandably) behind them these days, are no exception. And while it would be nice to assume that all the fine folks here don't keep company with nor act in ways that would include them among the idiots responsible for those lawyers, I will venture that one would have to be extremely conceited to say that they have never made a mistake or done a foolish thing- even when handling a firearm. That said, anyone is statistically subject to being the cause of an accidental - and likely an uncontrolled - discharge.

I carry my chainsaw running most of the time too but the chain isn't moving. If it does I adjust the idle back where it belongs. Usually I'm trimming fencelines with it more than cutting firewood.

Do you load the chamber before you turn on the spotlight or after you see eyes?

I load my rifle when I get out of my truck, and unload it at the end of the hunt just before getting back in the truck. I personally have never known anybody to do it any other way.

Wow, guess this one is back again. I hunt with a round in the chamber with the exception of when the terrain dictates that it would be better to unload. Of course when carring in a saddle scabbard or any other form of transportation it is unloaded. Can't imagine anyone trying to convince me that walking around with an autoloading shotgun cold is conducive to shooting fast flying birds. Realistically, you wouldn't even get a shot most times because somebody in the group would kill it while you were putting a round in the chamber. Would certainly do as the Romans if I ever get a chance to hunt AK but otherwise I'll stick to what works for me.

Depends on the situation, but for the most part, I hunt empty. If I'm sitting in a deer stand in the woods, I'll be hot, but hiking the mountains, its almost always empty, unless on the final end of a stalk where shooting will be likely.

Can't say that I've had an experience where I wished I would have been loaded or didn't have time to.

I am the same well said guys we always unload for the same reasons but once we step into the woods we have a chambered round.

If I am hunting yes.
If I am in transit to the place I am hunting, no.

Both scenarios can involve being dressed for the occasion, being armed and being in the field, they are not the same.

AGW

I hunt empty chamber.

I won't be hunting with you Jeff.

I always hunt empty. Where I hunt the terrain is typically steep and treacherous and a round in the chamber is a bad accident waiting to happen. It only takes one fall to kill yourself with an accidental discharge.

15 years ago I was hunting Caribou near Ungava Bay and the week prior to our arrival in camp a guy was killed a few miles from camp by an accidental discharge. He was hunting with his buddy and he stumbled into a thicket of some sort and the branches in the thicket tripped the trigger and the gun went off. The guy shot himself in the upper thigh with a 7mm mag and he bled to death because he mangled his femoral artery. His buddy tried to stop the bleeding, but it was a lost cause. Let�s just say everybody in camp was a total mess when we arrived for our hunt. I will never forget the look on those people�s faces!!! After that incident and I have never carried hot since. To each their own, but unless I am possibly the prey, I never carry hot.

You start you post with



Then post.



So you don't "always" hunt empty?

Never hunted in Africa and I don't think I can afford a brown bear hunt. Therefore, it is fair to say I NEVER carry hot. Only time it makes sense to me is if you are chasing something wounded that can eat you or kill you. I don't put elk in that catagory.

So you don't hunt with a round in the chamber,but would do so if you were to hunt dangerous game?Personally,I alway have a round in the chamber when cleaning game in grizzly country,or if I have to leave some of the animal and come back later to pack the rest of it out.

SJ,

You are seriously beginning to look like a complete moron.

What Poot is saying (and it doesn't take a genius to figure it out, despite the fact that you don't get it) is that if the risk of dying from carrying cold outweighs the risk of dying from carrying hot, it probably makes sense to carry hot.

Likewise, while I think it a foolish endeavor to carry hot while hunting, I would never suggest that our buys in Iraq and Afghanistan not carry hot, since there is a real possibility that a split second delay could cost them their lives.

Exactly what I was getting at.I am surprised that you caught on.

So have you decided what the definition of an AD is yet?Since you avoided responding to my other post,perhaps I will repost it here so you can point out why you feel that my definition of an AD is incorrect.

Where are you going with this? Let me try to make this really clear because I am obviously doing a poor job of making my point. The only time I would �even� consider hunting hot is if I was tracking wounded game that is highly dangerous (Cape buffalo, lion, brown bear, etc.). That said, the chances of me going on a brown bear hunt or killing a cape buffalo are pretty slim, therefore, I think it is fair to say I don�t ever run hot.

I have family in Alaska and I spend a fair bit of time in brown bear and grizzly country and I do not carry hot, ever!! I hunt elk in grizzly country in Wyoming every few years and I don�t carry hot, ever!! So what part of that don�t you get????

So if you don't carry hot would you hunt birds with the gun open and when one flushes you load two shells and close the action, shoulder the shotgun and shoot? Or are you saying that game that requires a rapid shot can't be hunted safely? (The VP aside)

I understood you perfectly.Just making the point that given the right circumstances(in your case a wounded and dangerous animal)most people would carry a round in the chamber while hunting.And until you recover the animal you would still be hunting.

____________________________________________________________
_ That sort of sums it up for me..
There's a difference between hiking, trekking, climbing to get into where you will hunt and ........hunting.

When hunting I hardly move perceptably by human terms..know where my next foot is going to be placed, work slow and am ready.
I am not busting thickets where I cannot see anything including my feet in front of me where there is a risk of snakking the rifle or myself..
I don't fall down, don't poop my pants when hunting or jam my rifle muzzle into the mud because I lost footing.
IF the going requires it, the rifle is slung, perhaps unloaded, handed to another ( IF anyone is even along with me) OR I figger out a better route.
More worried about breaking an ankle than shooting myself or another.

I DO wonder that some may take the 'hunting cold' position for safety because they realize they:

Are not in good condition nor agile ..
Are overweight, clumsy..

Hungover..( God forbid but it happens)

That then is a good precaution for such folks..Jim

I hunt em with a sling shot......................

You just describded me to a T I am a fat ass that rides an ATV all day long and I only get off unless I run out of Twinkies............

I think you have it backwards, it is the folks that hike their asses off in steep terrain and go into hell holes looking for game that hunt cold. The possiblity of taking a spill is higher in those circumstances, therefore, it seems more logical to hunt cold. Thats my take anyway.

Poot,
Now I know you are a hunter..tho in different country..and as I have said on this and similar posts:
YOU hunt knowing your own limitations, physical condition, terrain, how fast you need to move etc...so you are safe and come back in one piece.
IF ya need a takedown rifle stowed in the backpack, go for it.

When a hunter hikes his arse off in steep terrain he ain't hunting..unless maybe for goats or sheep.:)

He's GETTING to where he's gonna hunt and the rifle is handled alot differently..Slung up, unloaded, on safe, even laid down at times... whatever..
When you need one or both hands and arms to negotiate the country..the rifle gets slung up and safe.

I hunt like I hunted men and lions and bears and like I still can hunt with a bow.

Slow and deliberate..not like I was busting my arse..

IF I am humping into where I want to hunt( or out) the rifle is unloaded and probably slung.
IF I'm doing a run around on a herd of elk, rifle is safe and slung up..

IF a hunter is falling down and getting tangled up..don't matter IF all he's packing is a slingshot, IMHO, he's in over his head, in the country...picked a poor route, out of condition, poor footwear, fatigued, or maybe all of the above or worse.Jim

Hey guys!

Do you all think I should total this up, just to see what the ratio is, or let it run a while longer before I do that?

It would be my preferance to see this thread be more of a poll than a debate over chambered vs. not, as that fire is raging elsewhere*, but obviously you guys do as you see fit.

* NASA called me and told me they could see the thermal imprint of our little dustup from the moon! :-)

-jeff

I mostly deer hunt from tree stands. I Have the chamber empty to and from the stand but I am definitely going to have a round in the chamber while I'm in the stand.

BTW the reddest (is that a word?) I've ever seen anyones face is the first and last time I have loaned a rifle. I had a boyhood friend up to my place to hunt. We had gotten together again at our 40 year high school reunion and I invited him for whitetail season. I knew he was an avid gun collector and has a world class collection of Colt revolvers. When he showed up he had a pre 64 model 94 Winchester in .32 Special but only had 30-30 ammo. I loaned him a 1903 sporter in 30-06. It is a beautiful little full Mannlicher style rifle put together by the Fajun Custom shop in 1973.

He hunted all morning from a ground blind then we met at noon for lunch. He had the rifle slung over his shoulder and I noticed the safety was off. I told him I sure hoped he didn't have a round chambered because the safety was off.

He told me: "No it is off, see." (pointing to the magazine cutoff)

"That's not the safety!" I blurted out.

I thought he was going to faint! He had carried the rifle all morning loaded with the safety off.

That rifle has a 3lb trigger. How he managed to go that long without a AD is beyond my comprehension.
I'll never loan out another gun.

Yikes, that is scary. That boy is one lucky person!!

ibfestus,
That 'near miss' goes back to the owner of the rifle and the one it was loaned to..
Both probably could have done differently.

First, make certain that anyone who is going to use a firearm is understanding of the way it works.

Second, IF someone hands you a firearm, make sure YOU know how it works..:) Jim

PS: make certain THAT IT DOES WORK and is in proper mechanical condition..:) Jim

Jim,
Point taken, but a lot of us do hunt in steep nasty locations where it is easy to lose footing. I just can�t imagine putting a gun �only� on safe when the possibility of taking a tumble is high. An empty chamber makes me feel a hell of a lot more comfortable in those situations. I think it is really a matter of semantics with regards to �what is hunting�. I consider myself hunting from the moment I leave the trailhead. I have shot more than one animal while crossing a steep nasty scree slope that I never would attempt with a round in the chamber. In those situations I steady myself and quietly jack a round in the chamber. This adds all of one second to the whole process all while decreasing the possibility of the gun going off should I fall.

The bottom line is I never know when a elk, deer, mtn goat, etc.is going to show themselves, therefore, I am hunting from the moment I start hiking. If I cross a nasty spot I don�t need to take the gun off my shoulder and remove a round from the chamber and then put a round back in the camber once I get to a section of easy walking, like you describe. If I leave the chamber empty I am safe for all conditions; I can hike as fast or slow as I want and I just need to run the bolt once to prep the gun for business.

I do too. No arguments, discussion or apology for same.

BCR

PootPeak,
Everyone's experience and terrain will be a bit different from the next fellow's.
Whatever YOU are comfortable with and is safe for your hunting..continue to do it well.Same with anyone else in either 'camp' on this matter.
( and I knew you ain't had twinkies very often..:)


Concerning safeties on hunting firearms:
They either work 100% of the time or don't use them and carry cold as you describe. or can the firearm..
That includes dropping the rifle ..or falling on it .

Mine DO work 100% of the time....But I have good time proven rifles with good designs...in perfect condition (and so few of them I can operate or even field strip them them in the dark..:) Jim

The guys in my favorite gunshop are good guys, but like any gunshop employees they get cavalier.

I believe that a firearm should be handed to another person action open. If the receiver of the firearm does not understand how it works, or it's not open, they should refuse to take it.

This has come up a few times when I've asked to see oddball firearms that weren't immediatly obvious how they worked, and they handed them to me (or tried to) with the action locked up. I hand 'em right back and ask them to show me how to clear the firearm... they look at me funny but do it.

A LOT of accidents would be prevented if everyone did that, all the time.

-jeff

Oy, Jim, what have you said... the "safety police" are gonna be all over you for that one... there goes my thread!

:-)

-jeff

Hot. Someone should pull the similar thread from a year ago.....very entertaining.

I hate to bust your attempt at painting a stereotypical picture of someone who carries "cold," but:

-I play hockey for the Minnesota NHL alumni team. I'm their goalie. I have been called a lot of things in my day, but I have yet to be accused of possessing minimal amounts of agility. Clumsy isn't really on the list either.

-I will be doing the Ironman triathlon in Madison, WI next year, and recently ran a marathon in less than 4 hours with ease. Feel free to tag along for the 2.4 mile swim, 112 mile bike, and the 26.2 mile run. I doubt if you'll be referring to me as "not in good condition" at the finish line....if you can make it that far. Heck, just show up tomorrow at 0545 for my Master's swim team workout. Let me know your opinion after the 3500 or so meters.

I am around 10% body fat. Not a rail, but not exactly overweight.

I rarely drink anything, and I don't drink to excess.


AND


I carry a rifle with an empty chamber.

GOALIE, Good for you on your condition and choices.

Your reading-comprehension skills may need some work tho..

as I said I WONDERED about SOME...>>:)..:)

I read all the posts about hunters falling down , damaging their rifles,jamming their muzzles full of dirt and muck..(even pooping their pants in incontinency), cutting themselves with their own knives.. etc and it does make a man wonder..:)

Anyhow,
IF that shoe don't fit you, good..!!!

Continue to do what works and you feel safe and comfortable with..Jim

why do I feel like I took a ride on the short bus after reading much of this?

I see your side of it as well; the problem is not everybody has good gun handling skills and many never verify their guns are 100% mechanically sound like your firearms. For those folks a cold chamber is a safer bet in my view.

I see both sides of this issue, I just like the piece of mind of a cold chamber.

Most of the time. Muzzle awareness is critical. Just be sensable: climbing into stands, crossing obstacles...unload.

I carry my rifles with one in the spout - just as I do with my shotguns. The "danger" is nil. It's not the absolute faith in my safety that makes it so (although it's always on until a second or so before firing) - it's the absolute faith I have that my barrel is always pointed in a safe direction.

Why this practice is considered unsafe when hunting big game with rifles - and yet is considered safe when jumping birds with shotguns is something I don't understand.

Going down scree slopes, crossing streams, climbing trees and stepping over lots of deadfalls, is the exception to the rule - then I take the cartridge out, and take the safe off.

Until you've surprised a grizzly or two, at real close range - you can't appreciate why.

The only place I've found where it's considered unsafe is on this internet chat forum. I've never heard hunting with an empty chamber advised in any hunter safety course, never known anyone who did it, and in 30 years of hunting never even known anyone who suggested it other than in this cyberworld. To me it's a solution in search of a problem. Maybe some of these guys need to take up knitting, but don't touch the needles until you're firmly seated.

Well said, from the Crow Hunter in Mississippi.......

Yeah, where were you this weekend? :-)

-jeff

Uhm... because... never mind.

-jeff

I am with Crow Hunter on this. Other than the internet I have never heard of anyone huning with an empty chamber.

And that s'posed to mean exactly whut?

I carry hot. I have always treated every gun as loaded and hence have muzzle awareness. I never point the muzzle towards a place I don't want a nice little neat hole. Even in the event of a AD (which I have never had) it would not matter because I am aware where my weapon is pointing.
here is something I just can't visualize- how did the guy shoot himself in the upper thigh with a 7mm? I am assuming it is a rifle- right? imagine how the rifle had to be pointed to do that!

I got absolutely hammered on by the empty-chamber crew this weekend... that's all.

-jeff

Field & Stream is looking for the two of you, they'd like to do an article....

TFF!!

Sorry, wasn't on the net much this weekend, didn't catch your gettin' "hammered"....

Been busy...ya know, huntin' and stuff like that.

I have taught Hunter Education in Montana for over 20 years and do teach the principle of an unloaded chamber in rifles. There is a difference in the type of hunting done with a rifle vs. a shotgun.

The main difference is that in shotgun hunting, the quarry is flushed and the gun is then fired as quickly as possibe to get the bird within shotgun range. The typical carry in this situation is a two handed carry, which gives the hunter the best control of his gun.

Of course, as was stated in an earlier post, muzzle control is paramount as well. The hunter has the responsibility to maintain the SAFEST condition at all times, whether shotgun or rifle.

On the other hand, a rifle is made for precise shooting, which means making the shot as steady as possible and at much greater distances. Carrying a round in the chamber while hunting, without the knowledge of any game in the vacinity, isn't the SAFEST option and therefore the reason that it is best to have an empty chamber. One less opportunity for an accident.

I understand there are many out there who would argue this point, that doesn't matter, and certainly doesn't make it safe. After you have taught several thousand young students and seen the things they don't know as well as the parents that don't know safety either, you would agree that it is in the best interests of all who share this sport to practice the most safe method.

jeff-
you can total if you want, but it won't change anyone's mind!

We cold-chamber guys surely ain't about to suddenly become potentialy dangers, and anyone that carries hot and has not had a negligent discharge (there are no accidental discharges ) needs to add YET. Hopeingly it won't ever happen.

To the hot chamber guys - why even bother to go cold when you get in the rig?

ironbender,

I didn't start this to rub in anyone's face; I just was curious what the ratio is. I don't expect ANY of this to change anyone's mind. We are basically arguing religion here!

Answer- because I don't road hunt. Among other reasons.

-jeff

So if a properly cared for gun that hasn't been tampered with fires as the safety is pushed to the fire position(or when the bolt is closed to chamber a round) because of a mechanical defect from the factory,that could not have been for seen,what do you call it?

If it was a cold-chamber guy who's rifle fired while he was closing the bolt, he'd call it someone else's fault, probably.

-jeff

yes a rifle. The guy fell and rolled into bush, the gun could have been pointed in any direction. His partner said the branches likely hit the trigger. When you bust your ass like that you could just as easily blow your headoff. I don't think it is that hard to imagine after taking a nasty fall

OK. I should have said "very few". Most of the "unintentional" discharges one hears about fall into the ND category, IMO.

The condition you note says it for a cold chamber I think.

Jeff-
Don't doubt your intentions - sorry if it seemed like that.

To me, there is a HUGE difference between relative safety and absolute safety.

Carrying hot has a low probability of causing chit, but IF it does, the consequences too often are terribly high. That's where I'm at on this.

That is the problem with making blanket statements.They are usually proven wrong.

If you lose your footing on this good luck maintaining barrel control

Ironbender, I want to take this moment to congratulate you for being the FIRST PERSON I have seen on any of these threads concede a point. I am dead serious here. I love to debate, and one thing that drives me NUTS on the internet is that nobody concedes or backs up a little and clarifies.

Hat's off to you.

-jeff

Gotta save this and show it to the wife!

That's one of my favorites-

Blanket statements are always wrong!

Always hot unless going under or over a fence or jumping a brook. I have never hunted with someone who didn't keep one in the chamber. Never been nervous about it. Most deer in my world would be up to full speed by the time the bolt slammed shut.

Are your deer faster than speeding boolits?

Only when you aim where they were .......

I have hunted with a chambered round 99% of the time when on foot. When I am on horseback, I don't have a round chambered 100% of time. Heck, you may even find a loaded rifle (or ten) in my house. I was always taught to treat them as if they were always loaded. The way I handle them never changes. If I see your muzzle pointed my direction. I will damn sure let you know where it will be placed if it ever happens again.

cK

In all honesty,I do have to agree with Jeff on his point about you conceding that your statement was incorrect.I respect your changing your statement,and I do agree with your new statement.

Another individual here posted a blanket statement that carrying a gun with an empty chamber would completely eliminate accidental discharges.I informed him that an accidental discharge could still happen when he chambered a round or released the safety when he was ready to take the shot.However unlike you,he would not admit that his statement was not correct,instead insisting that if the gun went off it would not be an accidental discharge because he was preparing to shoot,and the muzzle was pointed in a safe direction.When I pointed out that if the gun went off before the trigger was intentionally pulled,it would be considered an accidental discharge regardless of where the muzzle was pointed.
It would be so much easier if more people shared your attitude.
We may not agree about hunting with a round in the chamber,but at least we can have a civil discussion and amend incorrect statements to make them correct.

I was and am DEAD SERIOUS. I've spent the last weekend "debating" people who were incapable of a reasonable debate. Not you.

-jeff

ITS ALWAYS THE UNLOADED GUN THAT KILLS SOMEONE.
for the record,I dont use scope caps,and I usually chamber a round.

More pearls of wisdom..

Hey Calvin! Nice to see you.

Got anything constructive to add?

-jeff

Do you?

Didn't have a prob. dancing the bolt, with my girl deer (she didn't even chit twitch)....this past month.

I fall over all the down timber...waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too much, in the clear cuts, trying to get to where I want to be....to carry it hot. Too busy, really, to try and figure out where Ned is, at anyone time.....so I just figure it safest....

HoundGirl

ROOKIE'S........grin

HG;

Can figure that most would hunt with you any day.....

The reasons, don't stop with common sense re: rifle safety..... but they damned sure start there.

Impressive!

Did I say/word something wrong?

HoundGirl

No, I am very impressed and agree with you for all the same reasons.

Houndgirl... no... no worries! You just stepped into a bit of a foodfight is all.

-jeff

Yes I hunt with a round in the chamber.
At times such as crossing very rough terrain or a fence I unload or at least open the action halfway. I then reload/close action.

Safety first and all that!

If you take some ballet lessons you can be hot in the steep, deep, and slick!

Ain't got the grace required.....call it my handicap....

HoundGirl

Careful, this is one of those threads that begins to feel kind of like going to confession...... Sheesh, how much dignity are we willingly giving up in exposing the weakness of the human condition?

I just wonder how come I always get the guys with zero muzzle control??? Why do I end up getting guns pointed at me in error ao frigging often if all you folks are so incredibly gifted in muzzle control?

The reason is that few have a friggin' clue what muzzle control REALLY is and do not mind looking down the occasional muzzle. It is what they have seen and done their entire lives.
art

cocked and locked most of the time...

I'm guessing you don't buy lottery tickets?

With a guide or friend,empty chamber.On my own depends on the terrain and my level of comfort.

Just raffle tickets from kids...

When are you going to send me my rifle???

Might be a key word there.......

Girl?

yes

Jeff-
maybe your next poll should be "how many people have had a AD" and then find out how many of them carry hot or not- befor and after the AD.

Soon, very soon. I'll even deliver to you.

There is an AD thread going, Hemi. I'm not sure how much more abuse I can take, and that sounds like another contentious topic...

-jeff

Ooooh. You're on a roll today Sitka........


Casey

On the other hand, everybody could've just ignored ya'


Casey

Not on this topic.....as we see every 6 or 7 months!

So from what I'm gathering from the long-time guys on here, this has come up once or twice...Tried to search it, anyone have a link or anything?

A round in the chamber is bad, but ammo in the magazine??

I leave my ammunition at camp. When I see an animal I want to shoot I leave my rifle there, run back to camp, get the ammunition, run back to my rifle, load and shoot the animal. Most big game will stand in one spot for up to six hours, until I get back.

I immediately unload the rifle, leave it there, run the ammo back to camp, then run back to take care of the animal. Only an irresponsible dunderhead would have ammunition in the magazine while hunting.

That's funny right there.

Do not see the humor... When the guys claiming to be too incompetent to hunt cold tell stories as if they had the ability to do something even more difficult... No, pathos is a better word.

That is pretty funny Those bucks like to have their picture taken too so don't forget to get the film for the camara so you can load it too..grin!!!

______________________________________________________________
Henry..humorously...

I am starting to see the light..:)

My next hunting venture for big game down here will be different than what I've done safely and successfully for over 50 years..

First, I will insure that I am a bit hung over and in danger of pooping my trousers from the hard partying in camp the night before.

Adds some challenge and drama to the hunt I hear tell..:)

Then I'll park my old pickup on a log landing with a decent view of at least 600 yards down and out.

Get the Def Lepard CD blaring to get me in a killing mood..:)

Have a shot of Crown Royal with some coffee while the heater pumps.

Will use my new Swarovsky binos to glass the fresh cut below.

I will be fully prepared for 'safe hunting'..and have my rifle cased, with the brand new trigger lock in place.
Unloaded of course!

The key to the trigger lock will be on my neck chain, tucked securely under my woolies..

If I see an elk or deer, I will immediately determine IF it is legal..ask myself what day it is and IF it's shooting light..:)and do I have a tag..:(..


Have another shot of CR & coffee..:)

Then I'll get my rifle out of the case in the jump seat, turn down Def Lepard CD, AND locate my cartridges..which are on the handy elastic bandolier on the rifle's stock.

Trigger lock then comes off!

We're getting ready now!
ONE cartridge is placed in the mag ( one shot kill ya know) and

Then I get the Harris bipod positioned so I can shoot off the truck hood..Then the rangefinder comes out and I verify the range
...
Great..only 450 yards..

I check the wind looking at the wind flags I set startegically down on the cut weeks before..5 mph from the left quartering away..:)

Now the Butler creek scope covers get flipped up..I'm really getting serious NOW!..:)

I shoulder the rifle and think about chambering the ONE round in the mag..BUT WAIT!

The elk have moved a bit..so I range them again..467 yards this time!

I adjust my turrets on the Leupold variable scope and then I actually look thru the scope for a final affirmation of my chosen bull..

then I feel a fart coming on but end up pooping my pants and the fog from the creek below rolls in hiding the elk herd..

OH well!
Been a fine safe morning and I DO have an old cotton T shirt in the truck under the seat!..All is well! Jim

It's been argued several times. The search function does not find things very well for me either. There are three! threads on this topic right now. Some are started like this one and others are from drifting off course.

I've waited a long time to weigh in on this thread. The level of acrimony on this topic (EVERY time it comes up!) is truly amazing.

Anyway, HG, I hear what you're saying. In the thick stuff we're all in danger of falling down. Each of us has to make an assessment of our individual situation and make the best call he or she can make.

Me, I hunt with a round in the chamber. Always. That's how I was raised and taught to hunt, both rifle and shotgun, and applied later when I began handgun hunting. My father learned to hunt in the Dirty Thirties, when his ability to bring home game for the table was a very real supplement to his family's meagre rations, and a missed opportunity to take game was not just a disappointment, it might mean empty bellies at bedtime. He taught me to be prepared to shoot decisively, and to waste no time in doing so. It's not an unsafe way to hunt. My father and I have walked a lot of hunting miles together, first just the two of us, but later with good friends and eventually my own son and daughter, and we've always hunted "hot". There has never been a problem. Not even close.

I've walked countless miles hunting upland birds with a live round up the spout. I've fallen down with a loaded shotgun at least 25 times. If you hunt birds hard behind flushing dogs as I have for the past 40-odd years, you're gonna fall down. It's tough, physical hunting at times, and I love it. I have fallen backwards over a dog chasing a bitch in heat that some damn fool brought hunting, and got knocked cold. No ND. I've fallen down in thick briars and got scratched to smithereenies. No Nd. I've fallen into a sinkhole with grass grown over it, and had my shotgun fly out of my hands and land hard on the ground. No ND. A tree limb fell on me in a windstorm once, knocking my lever-action rifle out of my hands, and the rifle (loaded and on half-cock) landed with a twig inside the triggerguard. No ND.

How many times have I had an ND while hunting over 40 years with a round in the chamber? Zero.

Why? Because I always have my mechanical safety on, I always watch my muzzle, and I always keep my finger out of the trigger guard 'til it's time to shoot.

The only exception is that when I'm hunting with a single-action sixgun, the hammer is down on an empty chamber.

The statistics say that if you shoot 100,000 rounds, the odds of having an ND are 100%. In my lifetime I have fired, by my closest guess, about 500,000 rounds of ammunition. I've had 3 ND's, which I regard as being ahead of the odds by a bit. I'm not being smug about it, it just is what it is.

ALL of my ND's occurred during administrative handling of the firearm in question. NONE occurred while hunting. None of my ND's caused injury to anyone because even though I "knew" the guns were unloaded, I made sure my muzzle was pointed at a safe backstop when I dropped the hammer.

Elmer Keith once had a visitor in his home who was admiring his No. 5 revolver. He asked Keith if it was loaded. Keith's reply: "Of course it's loaded! Every gun in this house is loaded! 'Empty' guns get people killed!"

I've put in time in a patrol vehicle with an issue sidearm on my hip, and it's always been cocked and locked. I legally carry a concealed firearm every day, and there is always a round up the spout. Carrying a sidearm in Condition Three is lunacy, IMHO.

No offense to those who think otherwise, just thought I'd let the 'Fire know what my experience has been.

Glad to see that most people took my post for what it was. Just a simple attempt to find some humor in this and the other posts on this topic. Sadly some are worked up to the point of calling each other names and threatening injury and death.

I didn't take the time to read all 18 pages of comments on this, and I find it a little humorous that this even comes up. To answer this question, HECK YES I HUNT WITH A ROUND IN THE CHAMBER! It's been my experience that deer don't tend to stand still and count to 10 Mississippi while I'm loading my gun. I've never seen a ringneck hover patiently waiting on me to dig a load of 6 shot out of my pocket and chamber it in the gun. No offense inteded, but to me this seems like a pretty lame question.

Lame as the guy shot in the leg I met last month?

Hey gopher, its an interesting read...If you have the time.

TooFFunny !!!
Thank You, Henry

Funny chit watching folks announce their incompetence as GOOD.....

Maybe that's why I'm laughing... let me check... nope!

-jeff

Maybe we should just outlaw all guns and ammo so we will all be safe. Who's with me????????


Come on Guys and Gals, let it drop. Some of you were born and raised to have one in the pipe, others were not, and still others have made the decision on their own due to something they have seen or heard about to not carry HOT. I respect each and every one of your opinions, but please don't try to force feed me on your thoughts when I am hunting in my sandbox. If I come to your sandbox, I will follow your rules within reason (I will not hunt naked or wear pink in any fashion, I don't care what your rules are).

Again, let it go. The anti's don't need any extra ammo and we are going to need to be a unified force if Hiliary is voted in.

CK

I'm a curious guy by nature, so when I walk through the woods I'm always checking my safety to see if it still works...as soon as they quit, I get them fixed.

Kodiak-you're right, I should read the whole thread, but it's not going to change my view on this. As for the guy who got shot in the leg-how'd it happen-what's the details. Every gun I own has a working safety on it. Unless I'm squeezing the trigger, that safety is on at all times, whether the gun is loaded or not. I don't make a habit of pointing the muzzle end of my guns at myself or any other human being. If you guys feel the need to hunt with an empty chamber, more power to ya', but I would have to think the vast majority of hunters keep one in the chamber on the off chance that they just might find a critter to shoot at. I am going back to read the whole thread now.

And at that time, you'll see my stance on hot or not...(Hot, usually, at work or play.)

Not suggesting it will (or in fact should)change your mind, only that its an interesting read.

I have...oh wait, are we talking about the same thing?

Loaded round in the chamber here while in the field. I'm surprised at how many stories I've heard over the years about people discharging their rifles inside their vehicles. A good friend's wife shot a hole through his pickup a year ago unloading her rifle!?


2Seventy

Ford or Chevy?

-jeff

Toyota?

HoundGirl

Hehe

502 cubic inches of raw american horsepower...Aaaar Aaaar Aaaar (tim allen impression)
Nice.

Got to love a bad azz rat motor!!!

I didn't know that 502 Chevy's were options in Toyota's!!
:Grin:

Sure they do Toy's work great with Chevy power plants!! My rock crawling rig runs a 4.3l vortec and loves it

Poot,
that must an ATV on steroids!!
Cool...

Okay, I read the entire string, and I see some valid points here. First of all, I've never hunted from horseback, and if I did, the gun would be empty. Second-my hunting has all been done in Minnesota, Pennsylvania, and Ohio. I've never hunted the western mountain ranges, and I can see where one would not want to risk an AD on steep slopes or in the "Black Timber" I hear you guys talk about. I should also clarify that my gun is never carried loaded when crossing a fence or climbing a treestand. However, I can't imagine sitting in a stand with an empty chamber. The buck I shot this fall came in on me very fast. I was very alert, and took the shot when the deer stopped to look over the clear cut I was watching. The whole thing took less than 5 seconds. That deer had no intentions of hanging around for very long, and I have no doubt that had I needed to open the bolt, dig a round out of my pocket, chamber the round and aquire a sight picture that that deer would have been long gone, or at best left me with a tough running shot. The doe I took was in a similar circumstance. The opportunities, at least the ones I experience, happen lightning fast. I can count on one hand the number of times I've been able to watch an animal for any length of time before getting a shot, and this is while hunting from elevated tree stands. I am constantly checking my safety. I've never once found it in the "off" position when I didn't want it to be. Muzzle control is always exercised. I wont' hesitate to let someone know if their gun is pointed somewhere it shouldn't be, and I expect the same of them. Outside of the instances I've sighted, my opinion is still the same. I do, and will continue to hunt with a round in the chamber.

You'll love this...

Even the boggers couldn't keep it from going rubber side up I have been there a few times in the rock lobster. Took a hell of a roll in Moab on the Widow Maker......fitting name for an obstacle!!

I should have mentioned that proper Toy's wear Swampers.......that is a nice mini truck that rolled in that picture

Ah Moab...
Your rig makes sense now, I have been to Moab a few times to mountain bike-got to see some of those jeeps crawling up Amassaback(sp?)
Incredible!!

I should of mentioned in my last post I love your rockcrawler yota.Just needed some time to wipe the druel from my chin...grin..Sweet truck Poot.

I am foot and horseback hunter. This truck is a one trick pony for rock crawling, so it would't work well filling the shoes of an atv. As you can tell from the photos, it shrunk a bit and doesn't have much cargo space

Just a figure of speech, Poot!
Still, that is heck of a rig, must be mucho fun.

Thanks. It is going to look a lot better than in these photos; I have been running my Miller mig and the tube bender lately and it is starting to morph into a proper rock pig. I will post some photos when it nears completion.

I know, I was just giving you a hard time!! Atv's are cool tools, unfortunatly people just abuse the hell of the forests hear in Colorado with them. I suppose I could drive my truck all over hell and back as well, but I am a huge supporter of "Tread Lightly" and keeping these rigs on designated trails, etc.

I am with you, I prefer to hunt on foot, I don't even own an ATV.
I do know hunters that are very careful with their ATVs-I guess it is the way things go, a few bad apples give other users a bad name...

Bingo....I totally agree. Same in the off-road crowd. A few bad apples get good trails closed because they won't stay on the proper designated trails.

Nice Poot!

I had a TJ partly built and then gave up 'cause I needed to buy a new truck... had to sell it.

Wonder when they'll start Tundra's? They any good that way? I have one but it's way too new (for me) to hack into.

-jeff

Ford. She just missed the transfer case.

I just stuffed this lump in my 67 fastback mustang..... I like it!!

Thanks Jeff,
In order to bring this thread from hell to and end, I am going to hijack it and post picture of wheeling in Moab in a Chevy powered Toy. This re-directing technique tends to work well with my three year old

Please promise me you will not do anymore "Poll" type posts or "Cult of" posts on contraversial topics that will polorize the entire forum

Thanks Poot for taking this thread to a better level....theres a few other threads that need help too.

I too believe a firearm should be handed to a person with the action opened.
Here's one for you.
Last week i stopped off at a pawn shop that now and again has some pretty nice rifles and at a decent price.
Anyway there was a Winchester rifle and i asked to see it.
Young guy gets it and lays it down on the counter with the bolt closed.
I picked it up and with the muzzle pointed at the ceiling i opened the bolt and at that time i inserted my little finger into the chamber to make good and sure it was empty.
About that time someone behind me spoke out and said"Finally,someone who knows how to handle a firearm"
It turned out to be the store owner and at that point started berating his young employee about ALWAYS opening the bolt AND to check the chamber.
You know there are such things like extractors that can and do break.

So having said all that i freely admit that i have been hunting at least for 45 years and have always carried a hot round in the pipe IF the terrain conditions were satifactory in my judgement.
Every one i know does the very same thing.
However after reading these threads about this subject and the Accidental discharge thread and the fact that my all time favorite hunting rifles are Remington 600's which i own several and are prone to have AD's when flipping off said safety(which at this point has never occured on mine)and since i plan on doing a lot of walk hunting in a few weeks when i go deer hunting i am going to give the cold chamber style a try.
I certainly hope i dont blow a good shot doing this but to there credit those rifles can be cycled pretty damn fast(you gotta love a short action rifle!).
Anyway i will give it a try.

Yes, but only because I like your pics... don't care while your chamber was hot or not

Poot,

There are several shortened Toy's in my area; they look like a lot of fun!

My TJ was a good time. I regeared it to 4.10 and had 'em put a Tru-Track front and rear at the same time... got it set up with some nice bumpers and Warn... a lift and some 33's was next, but then my old beater truck blew the engine HARD and I looked around and went... crap, I can't really afford to have a $12k vehicle that's just toy, not when I have to buy a new truck... so away went the Jeep.

I'll get another one someday.

As far as promises... well, can't do that, sorry! :-) You know, I didn't actually START this whole thing. Go look at the Butler Creek scope covers thread; it started there and was nicely contained and actually sort of winding down. Then Steelhead, in his infinite wisdom, did HIS cute little Idiot Post of the Year thing, and then I did start this thread because I was simply interested, at that point, in finding out roughly what the ratio of hot/cold hunters was.

I guess I need to scroll through this huge sumbitch at some point and tally it up... does anyone CARE what the exact number is? I'd guess, 85/15 carrying hot? Seem about right?

-jeff

That rig would be fun on the beach here.

Poot,
Very nice, that fastback must scream...

Why don't you do an actual poll, so you don't have to count? I, for one, would be interested in the results.

My Promise:

I will NOT start another thread having to do with loaded or unloaded carry. No way, no how.

:-)

YOU start it! Dang man, you think I'm nuts?!

I'll tally 'em up tonight or tomorrow.

-jeff

TFF.....I don't blame you

+1 ! BT

I don't blame you but thought I'd toss that idea out there anyway.

I don't know about here at the Campfire, but in general my guess is that 99% of the hunters in North America hunt "hot."

Well, I'd guess it's more in the high 80's myself, but it's really not relevant and it wasn't, and isn't, my intent to rub anyone's nose in this. I was curious. This last weekend, for a while there, I was getting just dogpiled by the empty chamber guys and I couldn't believe that "everyone" hunted that way, so I thought I'd start this and get a feel for the ratio.

My only comment at this point is, wow! Talk about a vocal minority!

-jeff

All right... gonna tally this up...

-jeff

Here's the results.

HOT: 47

COLD: 15

So... 68% carry hot. I tried to be completely accurate, but if someone said "I carry cold" on page 1, then said it again on page friggin' 11, I might have missed it and counted 'em twice. And of course, vice versa.

-jeff

Jeff- if you really wanna drive yourself crazy take a look see and see where the people are located at and hunting. I believe you'll begin to see a trend.

Dober

Hey Mark!

I am burned out... can't go there... care to share the trend you think you see?

Or are you smart enough not to step in poo?

:-)

-jeff

I'd be willing to bet that people who hunt in tight country (Minnesota etc) would be for carrying hot and or the prairie and or the south and or Tex etc and or the east. Not the friggin mtns is my point.

I'd also be for betting that a good share of the mtn hunting types (IE steep, deep and nasty) would be for running cold.

I could be way wrong been that many times b4.

Dober

It's a factor that has been debated, that's for sure.

I dunno. Most of the cold guys insist that there's never a reason to have a round chambered.

If I were in open country where by definition, there'd be time to set up the shot, there might not be any reason to chamber- I can see that. Likewise, on a horse or cliff climbing, where the force of a fall could be greatly multiplied over what a person could generate, same thing.

-jeff

No one ever suggested the majority hunted cold chamber. Just as people once thought the Earth flat... and the majority concurred... most fail to see the obvious logic in hunting with a cold tube, but that tide is slowly turning.

IME the most experienced hunters have a much higher rate of cold chambers. When the inexperienced actually try it and realize it not only can be done, but done with time to spare that rate will climb.

But as someone posted above about the difficulty in hunting cold chamber and fumbling with getting shells out of their pocket??? That is not the voice of the experienced...
art

Do not intend to demean the poster above, just think it bears noting for the clarity...

As previously stated,speed is not the only consideration for hunting with a round in the chamber.In fact,in my case it is the least important reason,the most important being the noise created by chambering a round.It really doesn't matter when hunting a less wary animal such as moose or caribou,but that mechanical sound will will spook a whitetail buck or bull elk.As I also stated previously,I do not always have a round in the chamber,doing so only in tight cover where game is regularly spotted at very close range.When mountain or prairie hunting or when hunting for animals such as moose,My chamber is normally empty.

It's lines like that that get you in trouble, Jeff. "Most" and "never" and other dogmatically presented assertions can and will bring out the worst in people. I think that was what made the original comment distasteful to many. I can live with the opinion and practice in general assuming it takes into account the factors specific to a given situation and persons. The attitude suggested by the dogmatic presentation, however, is more difficult to fathom, much less swallow. I don't think that has to be further dissected at this point.

But, in this particular situation, that statement is entirely justified. I don't think its a line that should get anyone in trouble, its just the fact of the matter in this particular instance.

+1

IMO, you are kind of beating a dead horse at this point, Jeff...

Stubby
Sound is the problem, huh? Yet you are slipping along so quietly they just do not hear you? Let's forget stand hunting for a minute so we are talking only about still-hunting.

Just keep preaching the "I can't do it" sermon and you will surely be correct, though lots of others do it all the time.
art

Art,

I agree with Stubby,where I hunt sound is the problem. It is hard enough to get your safety off without spooking at big whitetail at 30 steps.

I have to agree with Dober about the trends that I see in the thread. People who tend to hunt very rough country on the move tend to hunt with an empty chamber. People who tend to hunt really spooky critters in thick cover while sittin on stand or stalking very slow and quiet tend to have a round chambered.

I will say that I do not know a serious hunter here who is suceesful on mature bucks who does not hunt with a round chambered. You are welcome to come and try it though,maybe you can teach me something.


Britt

I think, too, that how plentiful/available game is plays into things. Guys in areas with lots of elk, liberal seasons, multiple tags... tend to say things like "People should just let the raghorns grow up!" or "If I miss an opportunity, so what? there's always tomorrow". Guys hunting elk in areas where not a lot of animals get killed might naturally feel differently.

We all know that there's a LOT of game in Alaska. Things are different up there. Us lower-48 guys save up for years to spend a week up there. It could be rightly called a hunter's paradise, could it not? So, when we have (for instance) Steelhead demonstrating that he can hunt empty by jacking all the shells out of his rifle with a buck watching, what I think he is not understanding is that people hunt blacktail on the west side of Oregon, for example, for FIVE WEEKS and the overall success rate of the tag hovers around 12%... it's extremely possible to hunt a bunch of days in the season and never see a deer, much less a buck, much less a buck in shootable circumstances. We are not exactly swimming in the things; you can't just walk out on a dare and jack the shells out of your rifle in front of the nearest buck! So to handicap oneself by requiring the noise and movement of chambering a round is not sensible in my opinion. Especially since, as I and 70% of the Campfire contend, it is perfectly possible to hunt safely with a round in the chamber.

Anyway, I do think the ease of hunting and/or availability of the quarry factors into things... just following up on Dobers idea here.

-jeff

If only that were a fact, Jack.

There is a lot of game in AK because of the sheer size of the state. Game density is fairly low throughout the state. Sure, there are some locally high-density populations, but not many.

Didn't realize that. Sure seems like just about any guy I've ever known who's gone hunting up there, be it for bear, deer, moose, caribou, whatever.... comes back with meat. In fact make that every guy I know who's gone up there, can't think of a single failure to score. Not saying they don't exist but the guys I've talked to sure loved it...

(I talk to them because I really want to get up there and hunt someday!!)

Sorry you guys have it so bad up there! Jeez... without much game, what's the point? Just the joys of cold and lack o' women? :-)

-jeff

That's pretty much all there is.

Seriously, were your friends guided? That helps DSMF success rate! Sometimes a guy will encounter a gimmee, but mostly it's just hard work.

So what's next, Convincing people to go fishing, but not to throw thier lines in until they see a fish. Still hunting through timber for elk without around in the chamber amounts to about the saame thing. How absurd!!!!!!!!!!!!!!. This discussion sounds like some snti hunter/gun guy that is paranoid aboiut getting shot and won't even touch agun

Well, they aren't all friends and I don't know all the details. And it's a relatively small sampling. Don't want to take this too far.

My buddy Jerry in elk camp has been up 3 times. They killed lots of critters. Not trophies (you should see his manky little caribou!) but anyway, "getting the meat home" has been an "issue" every time they've gone up...

Oh- forgot- they don't go guided. They floated a river once, and were flown in once, and I don't remember the other time.

Anyway, I'm sure it's very rough country and guys hunt hard but c'mon... you guys kill a lot of game up there. Are there really Alaskans who want to kill critter XXX who go out and don't kill it, pretty much? Sure doesn't seem like if from down here from the pictures of piles of deer heads and guys passing on multiple bears and so on.

Hey, if I'm wrong, I'm wrong. Just exploring Dober's idea a little.

-jeff

Saddlesore... in case you don't know, I'm with you on that...

Right guys? :-)

-jeff

Britt
I agree fully most hunt hot. However, where I disagree is the concept it cannot be done with a cold chamber. I have hunted with an empty chamber in quite a few states including NY where most go at least a year or two between deer. I have used a pump gun and a double there very successfully for deer. The only time I have failed to kill a deer there was when none were seen at all.

Once the obvious fact it is safer sinks in and is accepted the success rates will not drop appreciably and it will become common practice. Will not happen anytime soon, but it is coming.
art

"Once the obvious fact it is safer sinks in and is accepted the success rates will not drop appreciably and it will become common practice. Will not happen anytime soon, but it is coming.
art"

Well, I dunno that I would take THAT from the discussion. Seems like most people are pretty vehemenant about hunting with one in the pipe, if that's how they hunt...

I think it's probably marginally "safer", though I still do have my issues with the idea of combining buck fever with a manipulation of a firearm action like that, but I don't think that's a major issue, just something that... well, I'm imagining a 16-year-old hunter all excited and cranking the balky bolt of a rifle, and it's not a safe-seeming thing to imagine, let's put it that way. I'd rather see that kid just popping off the safety in order to shoot to be honest.

That aside, the question becomes whether hunting hot can be considered "unsafe"- as opposed to just slightly less safe. There were upsetting blanket statements made by the cold crowd implying that we (hot guys) shouldn't even be in the woods. Hopefully, as things have simmered down, that kind of rhetoric has too.

There's an interesting thread on Risk Management going on:

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbt...owflat/Number/1795021/page/1#Post1795021

That attempts to address that...

-jeff

My problem with a hot chamber is less with the probability of a negligent discharge as it is with the potentially high consequence that accompanies it.

Imagine this discussion between two old friends-
BigStick: "I drive a .223AI on each hip, and one between the teeth when I'm hunting, and I never know which one is loaded. Laffin..."

WyoWhisper: "I once had a horse with a replacement hip"

BigStick:"Whimper, you don't know fark about $hit!"


...or something like that

ironbender says: "My problem with a hot chamber is less with the probability of a negligent discharge as it is with the potentially high consequence that accompanies it."


Sure; I get that.

Obviously, the riskiest thing we all do, other than getting out of bed in the morning, is driving a car. It's also where we present the highest risk to others. I can't back that up with statistics but it's gotta be so, right?

I bet just about everyone on this thread speeds a little from time to time or in other ways, drives in a fashion that is not the absolutely safest they could drive. You show me someone driving, and I'll show you someone that could be driving safer. That's a reasonable statement, right?

However, we all accept that we are both endangering ourselves and endangering others every day when we get in our machines. In fact, I bet the majority of us drive big vehicles (I do) that are both not the safest for us, statistically (in crash tests and so on) and will absolutely crush a small car if we hit them or they hit us. Right?

In the same way, hunting can be seen as an assessment of risky behavior. If two guys are driving in seperate cars to a hunting area, and one goes 5 mph faster than the other, then the fast one hunts empty and the slow one hunts hot, who has presented a greater overall danger to themselves and society in general on that day?

Anyway, in my assessment, while it MIGHT be marginally safer to hunt empty-chamber, given a functioning firearm and good gun habits, the difference is vanishly small as far as your chance, in general, of hurting another person or yourself in life. And believe me, and Tom, and Ruraldoc, or not... but I would be greatly handicapped by needed to chamber a round- enough so that in my assessment of the risks and rewards, it's simply not worth it to hunt empty. I don't see the "value" there.

Then again, I will go 70 mph on the freeway, instead of 65. I guess I am willing to push it a little, looked at that way. 'Course... most of us are! And just for the record, I have not had a moving violation since 1989!

(I did do some damn fool things with cars and motorcycles in my wild youth though... gotta admit.)

-jeff

Wow. I just read this whole thing. I'm more than confused. I carry a 7600 pump, in NY. I mostly go in wicked thick areas, and walking over rolling hills I "jump"deer a LOT. So I do get that close. Everyone that I ever learned from goes hot.

I had my safety checked for absolute soundness (within it's physical limits) by a gunsmith that is familiar with 7600's. I did this AFTER have the trigger tuned.

There is no such fantasy as cycling this pump around here without giving up a shot.

BUT, I actually have always walked with the breech broken open and the safety on. I'm walking through rolling hills and heavy cover at this point. If I have to navigate tough terrain, or cross streams, I've always unloaded entirely.

At any rate, I always felt that I was doing pretty good. If I fell, it wouldn't be on all those boulder formations, and down 50' like some have alluded to. Likely, it would be flat on my face, and that just hasn't happened to me. Regardless, the forearm of the pump is not locked and therefore (as I understand) the trigger is useless.

When I get a shot, the hand holding the forearm only has to push forward, while my trigger hand moves the safety before touching trigger. Being left-handed, I actually have to reach around thte trigger guard to get to the safety.

If I'm doing something wrong, I'd like to know because I've been moving about with this rifle feeling that I had stuff pretty well worked out. Running completely cold with a pump rifle seems like a really difficult task around here.

I don't have a vote. I just want to find out if I'm less than safe.

Can't say I have ever hunted waterfowl, grouse, pheasants, partridge or deer with a cold chamber. (intentionally )Would not call it hunting until the guns are loaded, anymore than I would call it fishing until a line has been put in the water.

And when I have myself situated in the archery stand there is an arrow nocked. Though I do not draw the bow until a shot is eminent.

I shot an elk this year at 5 yds in thick aspen whips about 10 ft high. I don't think anyone hunting without one in the chmaber would have anything except tag soup. For those who say you can' walk up on an elk, I don't think know enough about stalking

If you find a coastal blacktail in Oregon that will wait for you to work the action on a lever rifle DON'T EAT HIM!

Clearly there's something wrong with him. You don't want to eat a critter that is obviously diseased with something that can make you that stupid.

Jeff, for your pole. I carry hot.

ironbender, you need to relocate! Here's a quote from Calvin on "13 months" thread over on the the Alaska forum:

"Wed and Thursday I took a guy out who needed to fill the freezer. He shot 2 big forks and a 3 point. Bullets were recovered from all 3. He uses factory soft points and one of them was with a fusion. "

THAT'S what I'm talkin' about!

-jeff

Kodiak deer are one of the high density critters I mentioned.

We have lots of brown bears on the KP, and extremely limited opportunities to thin them. Brownies put the hurt on moose and caribou calves. There are areas thick with wolves - can you say "tacos"? There are areas thick with blackies - with the resultant depletion of moose calf recruitment.

Areas with deer are a different management paradigm than moose and caribou.

And those guys make up stories.

:-)

I ain't TOUCHING that one! I'll just take your word on it and step slowly away...

-jeff

You *are* trainable.

Anyway, it's interesting that (stories aside), two of our most vocal cold chamber guys are hunting where you take someone out and whack 3 bucks in a day... it is NOT like that in Oregon.

I believe you that it varies from locale to locale, but still -call me crazy!- I think the hunting would be considered way above average up there, wouldn't it?

I really want to get up there. I had this fantasy of taking my family on a canoe or raft trip down one of the major rivers, fishing and camping and hopefully not getting et by a griz, then flying them back home and staying up there for some caribou and or moose or whatever else I could rustle up hunting...

-jeff

Ha!

Yeah, once I pissed on an electric fence. You do that ONCE.

-jeff

How many tags one might get or how prevalaent the game is is sorta moot to safe practices.
I don't think many hunters today are subsistence hunters..tho many DO have a considerable investment in time and expense just to be out there with a tag.

Regardless of whether you can get tags for six deer or one, predation permits for multiple elk or one, caribou or moose tags as AK or Canadian NA ..........or whether you may have one shot in every three seasons..or what..

The onus is on the man with the rifle to hunt safely with reliably functioning firearms and loads..identify his target, and assess his own physical-mental abilities for the circumstances of the moment, including, but not limited to, his hunting style, terrain, weather etc.

Unload?.Sling the weapon?.Hand the safe weapon to another?
Stay in camp and sleep it off?..:)

Be ready to chamber a cartridge?, or be locked and loaded.

Ain't no way to dictate what's best or right for every hunter or circumstance and... thankfully, responsible hunting folks still get the chance to make right choices.
So make them and choose wisely whatever ya do..Jim

There are folks who think and expect things to be this way to be sure. The part that many fail to understand is how large the state is - two people can be a thousand miles apart and still be in the state- and, given the fact that so much of it is undeveloped, that means there are plenty of hiding places as well. It is truly amazing for some to come here and discover how much country they need to peruse in order discover one of the many critters we have. Then, of course, is the other factor, that being the feast/famine deal. Caribou (it could also be birds or other animals) -thousands of them- could literally be in the backyard on Wednesday and inaccessibly distant in rugged terrain only 20 miles -or a hundred- away by the weekend - or even quicker.

Mostly we - and most other people- don't brag about our lack of successes. And there are many. Those of us who do seem to have "great" success rates also have some rather significant investments in time and financially aquired resources. Going out scouting for a day -or running the trapline- might easily involve $100 worth of gas at a minimum just from the back door.

Klikitarik,

I hear you on the expense of scouting! It (price of gas) has cut into my woods time significantly. Gone are the days of tossing ten bucks in the tank and doing much of anything.

Don't you guys get some sort of dividend up there? Just put that in a special "hunting" account!

-jeff

Yes, there is the "dividend," a yearly but variable check we get (which the feds like since they take part of it as always with any form of income). I used mine to finally get my fuel bill paid down - it had gotten a couple of months behind. So yes, I did use it for hunting - after the fact.

Yeah, isn't that fun, paying for the fun after the fact.

This last hunting season, elk especially, looked like it was going to cost me a lot in missed money, but as it turned out it wasn't so bad. Try leaving town with a $10k commission hanging in the balance! No, I didn't get it... it evaporated, as they do, thus leaving me free to leave depressed but at least not feeling like I was about to take a $10,000 self-guided Oregon elk hunt! :-/

-jeff

Like a good Alaskan, you probably spent your PFD two or three times!

+1

That is exactly the reason I hunt with an empty chamber much of the time. �Potentially high consequence� is why I�ve flown aircraft for a fair number of miles but always let someone more experienced perform the take-off and landing. Its why I often drive far under the speed limit in adverse weather and road conditions. Heck � its why I often don�t drive at ALL in such conditions. (The wisdom of which many people have to learn the hard way.)

It seems to me that taking reasonable precautions to mitigate risk is a good thing. Even so, sometimes you have to drive in the snow and ice, however, or late at night when the drunks are out. Sometimes you get killed in the middle of the day in good weather and on dry roads because you make a mistake, because someone else makes a mistake, or maybe because God wills it. You exercise and eat healthy and sometimes you have a heart attack anyway.

Guess I�ll continue to hunt hot or cold, depending on the circumstances at the moment.

Dave took this cow last year after his first shot was a misfire. We had hunted all morning with cold chambers until shortly before he chambered the round that misfired. Just out of the picture 200 yards further back and to the left of the aspen another cow is down. I took it after borrowing the shooting sticks Dave had been using when he shot. Dave�s misfire and subsequent chambering of a new round and all the changing of positions so I could shoot didn�t affect the outcome for either of us.



Another of Dave�s shots � he�s the orange spot about 275 yards away. His deer is behind the cedars just to the right of him in the picture. Another empty chamber situation, with the shot taken from where I took the picture.



Took this year�s first cow elk in pretty open country at about 125 yards. Plenty of time to chamber a round while I was waiting for the cow to clear the herd and end up in an opening through the thin line of aspen the separated us.



This forkhorn mulie made the mistake of running in front of my truck as we were driving a 4x4 trail through the sage, trying to get to an overlook above a creek. We both thought it was a doe and Dave jumped out to shoot it with his .30-30. I put the binoculars on it and saw the antlers. Still had time to jump out of the truck, grab my rifle from the case, chamber a round and take the shot (although another second or two and it would have been over a fold and gone).



A productive area for both deer and elk over the years. Got the buck above not far from here. Not sure why a hot chamber would be an advantage�



The deer stayed on the wrong side of the Colorado/Wyoming line, but we spent several hours watching them as well as about 70 antelope that would have been easy shots if in season.



Shot this year�s second cow elk from this knoll. We had spotted the herd of a couple dozen when they were over a mile away. Took the shot at about 25 yards. I had chambered the round when they were about 500 yards away and turning toward me.

[img]http://www.hunt101.com/img/526815.jpg[/img]

Last day of this year�s hunt. Shortly after taking this picture I chambered a round in my .30-30, then sat and waited and watched. Seemed to be a reasonable thing to do�

[img]http://www.hunt101.com/img/526816.jpg[/img]

Only the first picture works. (for me)

Coyote Hunter,

Nice pics!!

That's comPLETEly different country than I hunt, for whatever that's worth.

In fact my goal is to get out and hunt some country like that! Looks like a lot of fun.

I note that you did chamber for the one pic in the thick stuff.

Thanks for sharing the cool pics!

-jeff

Yup, pretty common for me to do that. Half-cock safety with the hammer-block safety disengaged.

The BLR takes the half-cock thing to the next level. The hammer folds forwards sort of under the firing pin... hard to explain but brilliant when you see it. IMHO.

The crossblock safety looks pretty bombproof too on a Marlin, but I couldn't say I really know that- never taken it apart and you can't really see in there. It would appear that it puts a pretty good chunk of metal in the way of the hammer. However, I HATE the crossblock ergonomics, and just do what you do, half cock, when I've hunted with a Marlin.

-jeff

I have yet to see an elk in open country like that.Must be some type of hunting a kin to antelope. But hey, I hunt hot when hunting pronghorns too.

I have to agree with some of the other posters, in that I hunt both ways, depending on the situation/terrain etc. If in a stand, either elevated or on the ground or if still hunting, I have one in the chamber. If traveling, especially with wet, steep or rough terrain, I will go cold. Too many different situations to say "always" one way or the other for me.

Yeah, there's no elk out in that kind of country.

Well, this one from 2003...


And a couple thousand on these hills every year, including the hundreds in this picture...

I just wish I had chance to hunt them in the open and not on the side of a moutain.

Coyote Hunter..

Great pics and great 'testimony' for hunting un chambered.
You wear your seatbelt when driving and looking?..:0

That isn't hunting..it's driving and maybe glassing-walking..and getting set up...by my experiences and country and game I hunt safely & successfully it has absolutely no relevance...for me.

Shucks, in that country, I could eat my lunch while watching whatever game was there bigger than a marmot out to a mile....:) Jim

Yeah... I can't even imagine hunting elk in that territory.

To put it in perspective, maybe, I sold a nice Springfield M1a that I wasn't shooting, this fall. I ended up with $1075 in "monopoly money" at the gun shop (Or about $850 on a cashout). Anyway, I used $600 of it to buy a fairly nice Leupold spotting scope... which I never even USED, not once, on the elk hunt that came up a few weeks later. There was just never any reason to get the damn thing out, and I wanted to!

Anyway, I do think that the terrain a person mostly hunts in has a large bearing on this discussion, as Dober mentioned and as others have mentioned... as a trend, at least, not a 100% indicator.

-jeff

jim in Oregon -

That country isn�t necessarily as easy as you make it sound. You can see game a long ways off, but they can see you, too. We put the sneak on a herd of 80 or so elk one day a few years back. Spotted them about 11:30 in the morning. Dropped a nice 6x5 with my first shot � about 15 minutes after sundown at 350 yards. Took us that long to get close enough for a shot. I went the last 100 yards on my back, pushing myself headfirst through sage and cactus with my legs.

Other areas have lots of folds, tall sage, and deep cuts that provide plenty of cover.

I reckon its as much hunting as sitting in a stand and more so than sitting over bait. Digging game out of the creek areas where the sage is over head high with tunnels and game trails through it is every bit as tough as hunting dense pines higher up. Maybe tougher.

Coyotehunter,
Didn't intend to say your country was 'easy' at all.
And you are right..IF you are not concealed covert in such wide open country..the game does 'see' you too..
How they react..when they see people afar off is another topic..

But it is different from the country I hunt.
Do what you do well and safely..That's what this thread needs to come down to..Jim

Amen to THAT!

-jeff

It is different, I'll admit. Love to go up high and hunt the pines and aspens, a very differnt world. Have had more luck down low, though.

I agree about safety. I tell my wife, friends, etc. that a successful hunt is one where everyone gets back home safely and in one piece. Hasn't always worked out that way, although no gunshot injuries, thank God.

I'll throw some gas on this fire. I hunt with an empty chamber, always have, always will. I have never seen any critter spook from a bolt cycle. Further (this is the gas part) I REFUSE to hunt with anybody that has one in the spout. I have read this entire thread, and (more gas) it seems to me that the guys that get it, get it, and the guys that don't, won't. I haven't met a guide yet that will pair up with someone that hunts hot. To me that's just the way it is.
R.

Whoosh! The sound of gas on the fire...

-jeff

I wouldn't hunt with someone who doesn't carry one in the tube. Shows they are too paranoid and insecure that they don't even trust themselves.If someone is that bad, I wouldn't trust them around me once they did chamber a round.

Being in the cheap camp. I have only gone on one guided hunt in my life, which BTW was in Alberta in the Red Deer River country. That guide insisted I chamber a round once I had my horse secured.Seems even the Canucks are a divided camp


WHOOOOOOSH , the sound of a bigger flame

I guide. In the elk jungles it's hard enough to get clients who are unacustomed to big critters zooming through the timber like 600 lb cheetahs to gather their wits enough to make a shot. I always tell them to have a round chambered and be ready.

I think I'm starting to see a pattern here. "Whoosh" must be some kind of secret code or protective mantra to be used when one gets a bird's eye view of a rifle's muzzle. I've always started with "Hey" (or something else) which can be applied vocally with enough force to address the point. (Perhaps I'm just paranoid and don't trust myself , but "whoosh" looks an awful lot like "shoot" spelled backwards so maybe I'll just stick with "hey" or something along those lines.)

It may show that or it may not show anything of the sort.

Some folks recognize that �stuff� happens � an unintended slip and fall, or brush or clothing snagging the trigger. Couple that with the fact that mechanical safeties are not perfect and there is a chance for disaster with a hot chamber � a disaster that an empty chamber would avoid. It is not at all unreasonable for someone to decide that 100% safe is better than something less so.

Reasonable people also recognize that people are not perfect � no matter how sure they are of themselves. People make mistakes and the chances of a mistake increase dramatically with fatigue or distraction. Again, an empty chamber is ALWAYS SAFE, a hot chamber not so much.

I still say that the act of an action manipulation upon seeing game has it's own perils that are under-discussed on this thread. We all know that a significant number of ND's happen when loading or UNLOADING a firearm. I really don't want to be 250 yards away, across the cut, from some empty-chamber guy when he doesn't get the shot and now has to unload his lever gun and then load it again! For instance.

The assumption of the empty-chamber guys is that they are all a bunch of cool assasins, and maybe in fact they are, but think if they had their way and every Tom Dick and Harry had to carry empty-chamber in the woods! I mean, seriously, think about that. There would be MORE ND's, I think!! I do not like the thought of thousands of buck-fever-stricken guys who don't hardly shoot or practice with their weapon suddenly needing to work the action in the heat of the moment.

Of course, the nugget of truth that we can all agree on is that in the end, the most important safety BY FAR is the head and hands and judgement of the gun carrier...

-jeff

You make a darn good point there Jeff. I have seen a lot of lever gun guys work the action without taking thier finger off the trigger.

IMO people who buy into the line that only safe hunters carry a rifle without one in the chamber reminds me of the anti gun crowd always making the argument that you are ten times more likely to have a suicide or shooting in your home if there is a firearm present, but they never say that if a bad guy comes in and you are not armed and he is, you are about 100% more likely to get shot.( ie ,you are too stupid to own a firearm)

If someone doesn't trust themselves enough to know when they should open the action when crossing hazzards or such and can't depend on themselves to practice safe muzzle control, they shouldn't be handling a firearm at all, empty chamber or not.

BTW. If one ever threw gas on a fire they would know what WHOOSH sounded like.

I don't think statistically there is any evidence or history that shows an increase in AD's among experienced firearms handlers who carry with a round chambered in rifle shotgun or handgun.

The key word would be experienced.

Experienced in the manual of arms of their firearm.
Experienced so even their reloads are proper spec and done well.
Experienced so they maintain their firearms in proper working condition.
Experienced in knowing when the firearm needs to be loaded or unloaded due to the situation and HOW to properly do that and 'verify' empty 'safe'.
Experienced in muzzle control..identification of target.

I think statistically there are far more 'accidents'... AD's and shootings ....by INEXPERIENCED firearms handlers who thought or assumed the firearm was unloaded and acted recklessly..carelessly .. at odds with safe general firearms handling.

Far more accidental field condition shootings because the shooter failed to control his muzzle, be aware of non targets forward of his shooting position, failed to properly ID the target..
While I agree that a TRULY unloaded firearm is the safest..hunting ( not walking in the woods or traveling on a quad or pickup or busting brush) REQUIRES the firearm to be loaded..else one is akin to what one poster said when he remarked that 'fishing' requires the line-bait-hook to be in the water..:)and just toting a fishing rig isn't 'fishing'..

IF the shooter-hunter conducts himself well while hunting knowing that... despite the mech safety on or off, his weapon is ready to kill, he should be mentally and physically prepared to exercise best diligence and safety.

I am NOT promoting chambered carry for the hunter in general..
In fact, there are folks who have no business in the woods handling a firearm whether hot or not..

Nor am I advocating empty carry while hunting.
Prove your own methods with cognizance of your abilities and the situation and be safe..Jim

My buddy used a turkey shotgun to vaporize a paper cup of white gas (Coleman fuel) into a campfire once... now THAT was an impressive combination of pyromania, guns, and gas. More like a fuel-air bomb than a whooosh, though!

-jeff

Jeff �

Your �For instance� about the levergun is one reason I�m especially slow to load one in the chamber of my Marlins and Browning leverguns. While it is possible to unload the magazines without fully chambering a round, and even to unload the chamber without picking up a new cartridge from the tube, it is considerably more awkward than simply cranking the lever. And the Browning holds 10 rounds. The crossbolt safety on two of the Marlins get used almost exclusively for unloading. I just find it easier to wait to load a round until its needed than go through the hassle of unloading the chamber and/or magazine.

As to �The assumption of the empty-chamber guys is that they are all a bunch of cool assasins, and maybe in fact they are, but think if they had their way and every Tom Dick and Harry had to carry empty-chamber in the woods!�. Guess I�d have to go back and reread the whole thread (not likely!) but I don�t think anyone made such an assertion, nor do I recall any of the cold chamber types suggesting that everyone else should carry that way, too. Would there be more NDs if everyone carried cold? I seriously doubt it. The first thing that would happen is a fair number of ND�s would be eliminated and you�d have to make up that deficit before moving into the area of �MORE ND's �. Remember � in order to have a hot chamber someone already had to load it, meaning the chance for an ND while cycling the action has already existed.

I agree the #1 safety is between the ears. Unfortunately that safety is probably not as reliable as mechanical safeties. People do make mistakes.

What about the guy that slips and falls. Muzzle control is not always possible under such circumstances, and it isn't hard for a safety to get wiped into the "Fire" position or for something to catch the trigger. Slips and falls can happen in terrain where a wise hunter has already emptied the chamber, but they can happen anywhere. I've seen more than one person twist an ankle and take a dive on flat, open ground.

As soon as the chamber goes hot the chances of an AD/ND go up infinitely, no matter who is carrying the firearm. The only truly safe carry is with cold chamber.

I am not saying hot carry is an unreasonable risk - just pointing out the facts.

Coyote Hunter,

You are being reasonable and I'm glad that the "heat" has been turned way down on this!

There were several guys who came right out and said, in one way or another, that people hunting hot shouldn't even be in the woods. That, in fact, is where a LOT of the original heat was generated! Anyway...

Hey, your Browning must be a 44 mag to hold that many rounds?? I have a Marlin 44 mag carbine that's my only survivor of my Marlin levergun purge that just happened. Very cool!

-jeff

Wow....300 posts...By the way, I carry hot, always have, always will...Hunted the west since I was ten for everything from chukars to Elk to deer from the Cabinets to the Gifford Pinchot to the Snake River and on down the Mogollon Rim Country in Az...I don't use guides so I don't have to worry about someone telling me to carry hot or cold...I don't usually hunt with anyone else...I wouldn't have a problem with chambering a round sometimes and would other times, but I am not gonna start wondering whether one is chambered or not...I'll just carry hot cuz that's what I am used to....Fact, everyone I have ever hunted with has carried hot....If you wanna carry cold, more power to ya, but it's just not for me...Good luck hunting...

This thread is still going on?

We are the Eveready Bunny over here...

-jeff

One more post, Yes I hunt with a round in the chamber. Where I hunt if you do not, you will never get a shot. From seeing the animal to pulling the trigger I have never had more than 3 seconds if I had taken more time the animal would be gone. As well, racking the bolt would spook the animal.

Also, do we carry our pistols with no round in the chamber. Likely not, when you need it you need it. Carried one for 22 years and it never fired except when I wanted or needed it to.

DaddyRat,

You have a bunch of +1's to that, including myself!

-jeff

I do...

When hunting with guides I've always started with an empty chamber. My experience (3-4 trips domestically and one to Africa) is that after a few hours, they've sized up the client's gun handling skills and are OK with going hot, at least in situations where a shot is likely.

Of course I unload when riding in a vehicle, crawling up a steep hill, rock-hopping across streams, etc.

When hunting with others I mainly worry about their muzzle control (or lack thereof). There's a reason the NRA's #1 safety rule is "Always keep the gun pointed in a safe direction."

Anyone else see muzzle discipline go to poop with a Safari sling? Couple guys I hunt elk with use 'em and I've had to get pretty pointy with them about it.

-jeff

I hunt whitetails from a treestand. My rifle is hot with the safty on. Of course I don't chamber a round untill I have pulled the rifle up into the tree!

31 Chapters later and yes, I still will hunt "Hot" as deemed appropriate by the conditions.

Jeff, did you ever run the numbers? I'm too lazy too look for the post..... BT

If I'm alone and hunting yes.

If I'm behind a guide, or other person while hunting NO.

Of course I unchamber when climbing, crawling, ... other junk.

Spot

It was roughly 70/30, hot. It's a couple pages back. I think we've had mostly "hot" guys chime in since then so probably a little more like 72/28 or something.

The good guys are winning! (THAT'S A JOKE!! SHEESH!!)

:-)

-jeff

post count really important?

Edit: "The Internet consists of a group of people, beating a dusty depression into the ground, which contains the pounded remains of the proverbial dead horse."

Damn straight.

I'm not about to start wondering if I have a shell chambered.

I've experienced both sides of the spooked game aspect. I have had elk bolt from well over 100 yds from the sound of a hammer cocking, but on the other hand the biggest bull I've taken was only 65 yards and (due to a caucophany of unforseen events) I had to actually load my gun (not just cycle a round).

Hot....unless in a scabbard.

Most AD's occur when loading and unloading firearms.

Choose your poison.....

I carry cold, and my friends do as well. Can't get too worked up over what everyone else does.

Funny how some in the 'carry hot' crowd think they have a corner on thick woods and wary critters...

... and think that if you don't do it their way it must be because you are uncomfortable around guns, have poor gun handling skills and a level of insecurity that is off the charts...

It ain't necessarily so...

Browning B92, a gift from Dad back in the mid-'80's. It was my backup elk gun for many years and hunted at least one day each of those years. It's my only unscoped rifle and is likely to stay that way.

It was also our protection against bears, lions and 2-legged varmints when camping with the family.

Love that rifle!

And how some folks seem to have a corner on all the luck. Of course it isn't perceived as luck, it's "good technique." I guess if you've been out and about long enough and never had to stare at the cold black eye at the end of the barrel, and especially if you've never had a hot one pointed at you as it slid or fell, you've been lucky. I do not wish my epitaph to read, "He was lucky 'til he died." I've know too many folks who've had close calls with that kind of luck. I prefer my luck in the positive rather than the negative.

To equate the use of a hot chambered bolt gun used for hunting, with an often/usually uncocked handgun, often used for self defense is absurd. I simply don't have much faith in a hot chambered, cocked gun which relies on a mechanical safety, luck, and 100% human perfection in handling to not go off. I know this human and several others too well.

I grew up on exposed hammer rifles and shotguns. They were never carried cocked, that action happening only when the gun was to be fired. My choice to not carry a hot chambered bolt gun relies not on some insecurity or paranoia, but on what I know. Does that mean folks who do otherwise are simply ignorant?

the funniest thing I heard when chatting with my friends about this was....

I asked "do you hunt with a round in the chamber?"

smart Aleck says "well I dang sure ain't fast enough to bayonette em!"

I was rollin....

Most everyone agreed the most likely scenario for a ND is when chambering/unchambering. Some would prefer to do that multiple times - in and out of the rig, crossing fences, crossing streams, going through thick stuff, walking in slippery areas, up or down steep stuff, on and off the horse, on or off the wheeler, etc.......

Seems far better to cycle once when you want your gun to go bang.

how do you think them actions get slicked up so much and the barrel not worn out? lol

http://attainkarma.com/scotts/beatit.jpg

If you're rifle isn't safe to carry loaded you should have it fixed. And if you cannot carry your weapon safely with a chambered cartridge, perhaps you should either practice with it more or pick up a different hobby.

The same could be said about the person uncoordinated enough to get a round in the chamber quick enough to get a shot off. In fact, it would probably fit better with the latter.

I really don't care, I was just throwing gas on the fire. to each his own. Guess I have been lucky and not fallen or what ever for 50 years of hunting.

Scott, that's CLASSIC!

-jeff

Dontcha just hate it when people make sense even if it doesn't agree with your thinking....and you read it anyway?

"Read it all... let the brain stem sort it out!" is my motto!

:-)

If nothing else we've achieved a sort of North Korea/South Korea truce on the issue.. just lobbing the occasional mortar shell at each other...

-jeff

Sometimes.
Sometimes not.
All in the circumstances.

If it's perfectly safe to carry in the steep, thick and slick, why unload in your truck for the ride home...why ever unload?

Gas, mortar, grenade...

Legality would be one reason. In some states it's not legal to drive around hunting with a loaded rifle. How they differentiate between someone who isn't hunting... I don't know.

Another one is that by definition, the rifle is ALWAYS pointed at something you don't want to shoot, when it's in the truck. In the field it's NEVER pointed at something you don't want to shoot, unless as you guys say you go ass over teakettle, or have bad muzzle control.

I could go on.. but why risk provoking a war? When we have this nice... calm... truce! Complete with no-man's-land.

-jeff

Here is a mortar for you....

Jeff Olsen is the biggest [bleep] to hit the Campfire since LHonda.....

:-)

-jeff

laffin

I hunt where most carry hot yet very few if any are hurt each year. I carry cold and don't feel handicapped for doing so.

Do us all a favor, and utilize that edit function more often....

Can't imagine cycling a bolt is any louder than someone who just can't STFU

TFF

I can recall as a kid everyone loading up in the mornings as soon as we left the truck. There was even a sense of urgency at times, like if you didn't load you might suddenly miss out on a deer.
For me there was always a slight sense of trepidation when walking around hot that was a little bothersome.

Nowadays I don't usually put one in the chamber but my rifle gets handled the same way. I also usually just load 3 in the belly and call it good when I used to hunt with 4 in the belly and 1 in the chamber. I've been hunting some with much less experienced hunters lately and it eases my mind a little when their rifles aren't hot but are handled like they are.

I don't recall ever missing out because of not hunting hot. I hunt in the woods, often thick, and every deer I've killed was because I knew it was there before it knew I was.

Now THAT is funny

Wow...Pretty articulate there. Nice to see that people can be polite after all this time.

But it still has a ways to go to acheive the legendary status of Leupys vs Nikon and PF vs CRF.........


Casey

Jeez......


Casey

Then it must be very difficult to hear a bolt cycling in Alaska.

Oh fer chrissakes, horseshiedt is horseshiedt, and a troll is a troll...........hot or cold
dun wit dis crap

Here in Colorado its a rare year when no one gets killed by a firearm during the hunting seasons. Some are shot intentionally (mistaken idnentity, "Officer, with the blaze orange hat and vest he looked JUST LIKE A DEER") while others are "accidents" involving loaded weapons and vehicles, falls, general stupidity, carelessness, inattention, etc.

The ONE CONSTANT in each case is the chamber was HOT at the time.

I understand the occasional need to hunt hot but in most cases I don't think it is really necessary. In griz country I would probably be hot all the time. In Colorado's open grasslands/sage I generally hunt cold, in dense pines where a shot opportunity may be fleeting at best, I tend to hunt hot. Other times it depends.

As I pointed out before, the chances of an AD/ND are:

Cold chamber = ZERO
Hot chamber = INFINITELY GREATER

Assess the risks and act appropriately. Its not hard to live with a missed shot opportunity. Killing your hunting buddy or family member, as happens almost every year here in Colorado alone, is a whole other issue.

You're full of crap, C_H. Everyone knows that a hot rifle is inherently safer than an unchambered rifle. Just ask Jeff and his gang of cronies.

Ah. when was the last fatality in CO during hunting season from a gunshot wound? Certainly not every year for sure.I believe less than half a dozen in twice as many years. Agreed that 1 is too many.

More people are killed from skiing into trees every year or waving golf clubs around in a lightening storm. I don't see any one waving a banner that everyone should go skiing without wearing skis!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!.

You are correct, assess your risk and act accordingly

Sitting in a vehicle in your garage. Zero Risk
Hunting hot. Infinitely less than driving down I25

I can't let this one go by ......like so many here. I'd like to relate a short story about a guy who I'd hunted with a few times and knew he hunted 'cold'. It was his choice obviously. I hunt elk alone but this time I happended to be with this guy on the side of a mountain in Idaho. I'd spotted a nice 6x6 about 300 yards down the mountain with the binocs and pointed it out to him. He didn't ask if I wanted to shoot as he just sat down on the ground and threw his rifle to his shoulder. I was watching through the binocs and since I knew he was shooting a 300 Win. Mag. I answered his question, "How far away is he" with saying "just hold on the center of his chest".

I heard the bolt work to load a round into his chamber and waited for the bang, half pissed off that he thought nothing of discussing whose bull it was. Still looking thhough the binocs and waiting, I heard again the bolt 'work' and thought that's strange. He sat on the side of the mountain and unloaded his rifle until I told him what he was doing. Buck Fever....you bet but he shot and missed with the last round in his rifle.

OK, so most of us would NEVER do this but the story is just one of the side effects of carrying cold. And I should add the guy still hunts cold. Some people should stay out of the woods if they aren't confident enough to carry a hot rifle....just my 2 cents and I realize to each his own. You hunt hot or cold, it makes no difference to me.

I take that as a perfect example of why someone should hunt cold. If a guy completely loses his head while hunting, the last thing I want is for him to have a round in the chamber.

Some perspective on this might be in order. This removes much of the personal opinion, and the touchy feely argument where gun safety is concerned. As I wrote, I carry hot sometimes and sometimes I don't not all events and conditions are equal. It's based on what is going on each moment I'm in the field.


HUNTING SAFETY

According to the 1991 figures from the U.S. National Safety
Council, here are the annual rates of outdoor recreation-related
injuries requiring hospital emergency room treatment in the US:

Recreation # of injuries per 100,000 participants
-------------------------------------------------------------
Football 2,171.1
Baseball 2,089.6
Soccer 910.2
Bicycle riding 904.6
Skateboarding 869.2
Horseback riding 464.6
Ice skating 334.9
Fishing 141.2
Tennis 119.7
Golf 104.4
Swimming 93.3
Hunting 8.0

From the same source (1991 figures of National Safety Council), here
is the table of accidental deaths in the US:

Accident cause Mortality rate per 100,000 people
-------------------------------------------------------------
Automobiles 18.6
Home accidents 8.6
Falls 5.0
Poisoning 2.6
Fires 1.7
Suffocation 1.3
Hunting (among participants) 0.85
Lightning 0.04
Insect stings 0.02
Hunting (among non-participants) 0.001

-----------

"Many hunters have participated in hunter safety courses. Hunter
education is now mandatory in 39 states for at least part of the
hunting population. These educational efforts are an important part of
hunting today. Despite anti-hunter's claims to the contrary, hunting
has become an extremely safe sport relative to many other common
activities. The probability of being killed or injured in a hunting
accident is lower than when you are attending a sporting event or
major concert, playing billiards, or taking a bath.

[Report of International Association of Fish and Wildlife Agencies
Hunter Education Study Team. "Hunter Education in the United States
and Canada with Recommendations for Improvement." (Fred. G. Evenden,
Team Leader). Bethesda, Maryland. 1990 112p.]

-----------

"..the [U.S.] National Safety Council reports for 1988 there were 161
hunting fatalities, 49 of which were self-inflicted. Thanks in part to
hunter safety education classes, hunting fatalities have declined by
more than 50 percent over the last two decades.

In general, three-quarters of the hunters who have accidents have not
taken hunter safety education courses. Participating in hunting today
is safer than swimming, bicycling, playing baseball, golf, tennis,
touch football, basketball, fishing, horseback riding, and driving to
the place where you are going to hunt, if you look at the numbers of
injuries per 100,000 people participating in various sports compiled
by the National Safety Council. In 1988, ten states reported no
hunting fatalities, and Connecticut had no hunting accidents at
all. Statistics show that you are more likely to be killed by
lightening when outdoors than to be killed in a hunting accident. In a
normal season, more hunters die from heart attacks than hunting
accidents. According to the California Department of Fish and Game,
there is a 0.0015-0.00425 percent chance of being killed or wounded
while hunting deer in California. In 1992, despite the presence of
nearly half a million deer hunters in the field, no one was killed and
only one person was wounded in California.
In response to [president of Fund for Animals] Cleveland Amory's
charge that hunters are harming "many innocent bystanders", the actual
data show that "Hunting accidents involving non hunters are extremely
rare. On the average, only one nonhunter is injured by a hunter for
every 12 million recreation days of hunting. A nonhunter is 20 times
more likely to die from stinging insects than wounding by a
hunter. Media tend to sensationalize accidental hunting deaths and
injuries, but in comparison with many urban areas where violence has
reached epidemic proportions, the woods and marshes during hunting
season are extremely safe, especially when you consider that everyone
hunting is armed with lethal weapons. In 1992 in California there were
no nonhunter injuries or deaths associated with hunting."

Talk about the swiss cheese analogy........

Driving (at least some form of transportation) is an absolute requirement for damn near everyone in the US. You simply cannot get by without it.

Hunting hot is only a requirement for those uncoordinated enough to be able to feed a round into the chamber under pressure.

So, JJ, I take it that you are perfectly comfortable crawling through the thick stuff, with a client carrying hot directly behind you?

As someone else so eloquently pointed out, the problem with people that carry hot is that it is rarely themselves that they kill or maim.

CAS,

In case you missed this part of my post:

"As I wrote, I carry hot sometimes and sometimes I don't not all events and conditions are equal. It's based on what is going on each moment I'm in the field."

My English and my power of articulation are not capable of making this more clear then what is typed here. I'm sorry that this may not be as well understood as I would like it to be for you.

As far as "perfectly comfortable" crawling through the bush with or without another hunter............. well I'm not sure I would be "perfectly comfortable" doing this myself, with another person, with a fully automatic 50 caliber machine gun, "perfectly comfortable" is a pretty high standard to meet. Can't say I've been Perfectly comfortable very often in much of my career where DG and Bears have been involved.

But,......... it's my choice to have this job nobody is holding a "gun to my head"!

I take that as a perfect example of why someone should hunt cold. If a guy completely loses his head while hunting, the last thing I want is for him to have a round in the chamber

Sad to say but you make me feel bad about hunting hot
I guess it's easy for some to forget that rifles are made with a safety. If there weren't a safety, then I agree everyone should hunt cold.

But I'm glad I don't have to do as you wish.

Ah, back to the safety thing. You got me there, nothing mechanical ever fails. Good point.

JJ,

I didn't miss any of your post. I just wondered that if it was safe to hunt hot most of the time, why isn't it safe to hunt hot all of the time?

I carry hot sometimes, and sometimes not. I'll give you an example of when I do:

When I use a side by side or an over/under while quail hunting, which I do more and more of lately.

I hunt behind a Springer. Gotta be hot there.

Depends on the situation.

rb

Also, never seen anyone hunt pheasant or chukar cold either. Chukar, especially, are typically in some pretty rough, steep, rocky-slidy country akin to deer (only half-jokingly, even sheep ) habitat.

You hunt chukar cold, and chukar win. Hell, chukar win even when hunting hot, most of the time.

Now, that does not negate getting to a nasty spot and unloading until breached. But once across/over/under, it's back to hot.

I suppose hunting with pointers might open the door to hunting cold here.

But with flushers ...

rb

CAS with all due respect to another long time poster here, your line of questioning is unrealistic for me to answer.

There are plenty of things in life we do one way or another based on conditions. I'm quite certain that not everything you or I do,... every single time we do it,.... is done exactly the same. Not everything can be managed this way.

Again, My power to articulate this may not be up to the task. If it's too complex to understand this from what I have written here then I apologize.

I would not likely wear my seatbelt to pull my truck from the garage 20 yards or so,... so I could wash it in the drive way. That does not mean it's always safe to drive without a seatbelt. Maybe this analogy helps a little bit? If not....... Well I'm sorry, you're on your own to make what you wish of my post and my opinion on this topic.

I suppose the complexity of this is well beyond my mental capacity to grasp. I must carry hot for much of my work, and my recreational sport hunting persuits. I cannot imagine for one second that I would be knocking pheasants down with any......even marginal success carrying my shotgun empty. This involves fighting bush and sidehills, mud, sand, snow, and every earthly possibility. All while watching everything but where I place my feet. I've never met an upland hunter who did otherwise, nor have I ever heard a single one suggest it.

Yet while using a rifle and sneaking slowly and deliberately through the bush watching each step carfully to prevent a single twig from snapping is somehow more dangerous and higher risk. I'm quite simply not intelligent enough to grasp these matters nor to understand the point of this debate.

"I didn't miss any of your post. I just wondered that if it was safe to hunt hot most of the time, why isn't it safe to hunt hot all of the time?"

If it safe to drive most of the time, why isn't it safe to drive all of the time? Let's stay with driving a moment. More accidents happen in inclement weather such as rain and snow. Some people make a decision to never drive in the rain or snow. Other people will always drive regardless of the weather. Some, perhaps Mr. Hack, will look at his window, consider all of the variables, deliberate carefully and decide to drive (or not) based on his years of experience, his assessment of the conditions and his skill level. Because you or I would choose not to drive in a particular situation does not necessarily make Mr. Hack "unsafe" or reckless or foolhardy. He is engaging in legal activity in compliance with the law.

Now, Mr. Hack can drive in the worst blizzard in recorded history and emerge unscathed. You may go out in perfect conditions driving a perfectly maintained car and die. So it goes.

People jump from airplanes for sport. They kayak wild rivers. They race anything with legs or wheels. They climb mountains. As a species, we engage in complex and unsafe activities, often for nothing more than our own amusement. In most instances, the law acknowledges our right to go in harm's way (though this is changing). The law also holds us accountable for our actions.

If Mr. Hack is guiding for me in the dark of Africa, I would prefer he tell me that he is carrying hot. Call it full disclosure. If he is my PH, I'm going to trust his knowledge and experience. If he says he thinks carrying hot is appropriate, I'm going to think he knows more about Africa than me. If I find his muzzle pointing at me during a hunt (which I think damn unlikely), I will politely point this out. If it happens more than once, I'll be on a flight back to the U.S. No hard feelings, mind you, but gun safety is a religion in my family... though much like Christianity, there can be differences in theology.

I believe a hunter has the right to carry hot or carry cold in the field. As with driving, I think competent adults should be allowed to make personal decisions, bear the risk and accept responsibility. I'm not going to force someone else to wear a helmet or buckle a safety belt... though the law may. Whether a man hunts carrying hot or cold is his business, not mine... that is until he puts me at risk. I will not hunt with a person I think is less than perfectly safe. There are people I trust more holding a loaded gun than others holding a potato gun. The same holds true for other hunting ethics. If I don't like a guy's ethics, I won't him with him. This is how the hunting community shapes its values... not through the legislature but how we choose to engage in our sport, or in the case of Mr. Hack, our calling.

One might choose not to wear a seatbelt when driving across as frozen lake just as one would likely carry a weapon hot while crawling through the alders after a wounded bear. Both situations actually likely lower one's risk of injury.

One of the "crux" issues in my mind is the fact that many hunting situations have no reason to carry hot other than a big "what if." In many cases these what ifs can be accounted for through greater hunting skill and diligence on the part of the hunter. Those are the situations where I have the biggest problem with a cocked, hot rifle. It's called hunting, in part, because we pit our senses and skills against the animals'. If we come up short, having the ability to blast away at a fleeing animal who "beat" us at the game is, perhaps, not even sporting - if that even matters.

This is the big game forum. Big Game are typically hunted with high powered rifles. That is really the context in which the topic should be addressed. MOO of course.

Some of us carry with a round chambered because we are fit, agile, move slowly and deliberately ..and just have been trained well and PREFER to be ready..and we can do so without risk.to ourselves or another..
That may not work for the majority of folks who have firearms.

Whatever a hunter chooses to do let him be accountable and responsible.Jim

Jim
You continue to amaze with your inability to face simple facts...
art (with arm in air to protect watch that is only waterproof...)

It amazes me that you can claim to have never slipped, tripped or fallen, not once, in 50 years in the field.

Recreation # of injuries per 100,000 participants
-------------------------------------------------------------
Hunting 8.0



I'd be curious to know the number of AD's...as I'm guessing lots of folks got off easy, but not joining or contributing to the injured list.

Dave the lower statistics chart show mortality of .85 per 100,000 Can't say if it's AD or not. While looking into this I found something interesting. There was 92 fatalities in 2001 involving tree stands nation wide, but only 23 with firearms. Of the 23 all I read were due to the shooter not seeing the person hit. There was ZERO deathes due to AD. This was from a statistical website on cause of death and injury in the USA.

Oh yeah they broke this down by age group and education as well. Almost all the "shooters" involved had never been to hunter safety classes, and most did not even have a hunting license. Only 2 were over 30, one was over 50. The rest were under 30 years old.

The demographic for high risk starts to clear up these issues quick. I wish they had a column for those who had been drinking as well, but they did not share that data.

Ironbender. Not with a firearm in my hand that created an unsafe condition. Condition your mind right and you can keep good muzzle control even a$$ over tea cups. You might break something, but not shoot yourself to boot. Besides,most bolt guns,all you have to do is lift the bolt so it won't fire. Sure don't have to unload it.

I firmly believe that the carry cold camp have created a problem when none exist or at least that there is such a low acceptable risk that it doesn't matter. Ironic that it looks like all the cold carry camp are younger hunters. Don't know for sure, just from reading a lot of past post from others for a number of years.

The poster relating the hot carry about shotguns in high weeds vs stealthly stepping through not so dangerous areas has it about right. JiminOregon has it about right too. Wonder how many of our lads in Iraq carry cold. About 400,000 troops can't have it too wrong or you would here a lot more about it.

The most dangerous hunting activity is turkey hunting. More people have been killed turkey hunting than any other aspect of the sport. Amost all from either stalking someone calling or mistaken red and blue colthing for a turkey head. It has nothing to do about carrying hot or cold. By the time the trigger was pulled they could have been either way a minute before.

Glad no one ever told The Greyhound that blacktails can't be hunted cold-chambered.

While I don�t have the current figures, I recall reading several years ago(late �90�s?) that we had a season with one archery death and zero firearm fatalities. What struck me, and the reason I remember it, was that this was the first year with zero firearm fatalities in some time.

The most recent death I know of was the father who took his teenage son hunting for the first � and last - time. I remember an ATV was involved somehow � I think he leaned his rifle against it.


No doubt about it.



Hah - we agree on something!


Not infinitely less, but very small. You just don�t want to discover you�re one of those who make it greater than zero.

Hunting cold would be an example of infinitely less.

Since you�ve never fallen in 50 years, per your previous post, how do you know? I know I wouldn�t place any bets on anyone keeping their muzzle controlled during an uncontrolled fall.



Perhaps its only a �problem� for the dead and injured and the folks responsible?

I�m 56 years young.



I imagine they carry cold quite a bit, depending on where they are and what they are doing.

"I firmly believe that the carry cold camp have created a problem when none exist or at least that there is such a low acceptable risk that it doesn't matter. Ironic that it looks like all the cold carry camp are younger hunters. Don't know for sure, just from reading a lot of past post from others for a number of years." (I couldn't get the "quote" function to work, so I lifted this from saddlesore's post)

Speaking only for myself, I carried hot all the time, until I passed through my 40's. Then I got so used to carrying a cold chamber when hunting on horseback that I realized that I was giving up nothing tactically.

Now I carry cold all the time, unless I have my eyes on a specific animal I'm stalking, and conditions are otherwise acceptable to me to chamber a round.

Arguments about the military in war zones are stupid. Of course soldiers and marines carry hot -- people are trying to kill them. When I was stalking Cape buffalo in the Zambezi Delta I carried hot, and needed to. But deer and elk aren't trying to kill me, so instant response isn't more valuable than a .1 second later response.

If you're right about the "cold carry camp" being mostly younger hunters, then I'm glad to see that they've developed good sense sooner than I did. But I know quite a few of us will never be mistaken for Gen X'ers .

After reading this thread, I'm dazzled that so many people are so offended that I've made a simple choice that enhances the safety of those around me and has yet to present any disadvantage to me in taking game. It sorta reminds me of the people who are offended by various rifle and ammunition companies coming out with offerings that don't suit their fancies.

Sort of smacks of self-absorbed self-aggrandizing self-righteousness.

(And for God's sake, don't any of you go misreading my handle and blaming My Other Brother Darrell for my maunderings...)

DN

I thought Art was about 107?!?!?!?!? Am I wrong? (Sorry, Art, I couldn't resist)

I guess I must not be fit, agile, or slow moving etc.....or does it simply mean that I am intelligent, knowledgable, and good at what I do?

Always with a round in the chamber.

OK. It's about this point in the conversation that some one suggests a compromise of sorts....

I think you should just close the bolt while holding the trigger so it's a loose sloppy pin drumming on the primer. At least it's not cocked, right?

That would be a solution for sure - tongue in cheek though it is- if the firing pin was somehow unable to make contact with the primer - even in an impact. That was what seemed like a reasonable solution to me except for that obvious and very dangerous fact. Having grown up with exposed hammers on rifles and shotguns, it was quite easy and obvious to carry a live round chambered but in an uncocked position. They were very fast and quite quiet to bring into action if desired. Transfer bar revolvers are roughly more of the same. Unfortunately, the typical bolt gun is not so easy to make this way. That is a big part of the reason I stopped carrying loaded and locked, that and the fact that I watched a hot chambered rifle go sliding muzzle first toward me with nothing other than the safety to prevent the trigger from being pulled. Yikes! (And a safety which doesn't block the sear and/or the striker ain't much.)

Sometimes hot, sometimes not, it just depends on how and where i am hunting.

I vote we grab a backhoe and bury this thread.

This thread and others like it prove nothing and solve nothing.
It's divided our readership into Hot / Cold camps, and I think that is a loss to all of us.

This reminds me of the "Helmet Law".
Let those who ride, decide.

My mind is made up and so is yours. So lets leave it alone and not try to polarize the issue.

Have a great Thanks Giving. BT

CAS
"I thought Art was about 107?!?!?!?!? Am I wrong? (Sorry, Art, I couldn't resist)"

And I am so like totally sensitive, too! Between my age and my hair I cannot guess which one keeps me up most at night...
art

You're still a youngster! (A folically-challenged youngster, but one anyway .)

I pity the Dude that could call me a youngster! He must be OLD!

Well, I'm 65, so 50's are youngsters to me..

Muledeer. I am not offended by you carrying cold, what ever floats your boat. I carry hot and don't plan to change. Why are post about the military carrying hot stupid? We are not talking about deer/elk trying to kill you here, we are talking about the relative saftey of carrying hot and cold. Certainly if a few hundred thousand troops being 18-20 yr sold, scared crapless carry hot into battle or bad guy zones, there is no reson why the average hunter cannot.

Quote by CH "The most recent death I know of was the father who took his teenage son hunting for the first � and last - time. I remember an ATV was involved somehow � I think he leaned his rifle against it." ( I'm not clever enough to do those boxed quotes.

See, it's those damn ATV's. We ought to ban them. If it was about leaning one on an ATV, I don't consider that carrying hot while hunting. I consider it darn stupid for not unloading before you get back to the close vacinity of your vehicle.You cannot fix stupid, whether you carry hot or cold. Mine usually gets emptied about 100 yds from the truck or 25-50 yds from the mules.

We might as well continue this thread. It's 9 degrees this AM, I Have nothing better to do ,except to mayb edo some reloading until the turkey is done and it's darn entertaiing

7.5 degrees up here in Evergreen........man its a cold one. Just started a fire and I am getting ready to watch football and stuff my face with turkey.

Happy Thanksgiving everyone!!!!

-9 F in Bozo...
Happy Tanksgiving!

I leave on Wednesday next week for my elk hunt up near Cook city; I am going to freeze my shorthairs off!!! -9 in Bozo is not what I wanted to hear!!

Brad,
have a great Turkey day with the family and enjoy plenty of grape today. Just pulled some killer Russian River Pinot's from the cellar for big meal this afternoon.

18 here in Touchet, gotta drive 7 hours tonight to pick up some livestock first thing in the morning tommorow. Then Back home Friday afternoon. Thanksgiving on the road with the family again this year!

Happy Turkey Day JJ. It is always a good Turket Day when the family is with, even if you aren't at home.

Ted

Ted, I know you know the Russian River is a GREAT area for Pinot's! Sounds like a good time!

I might head down towards Jellystone tomorrow and see if I can kill a bull. Really, conditions are just now getting good for putting elk down!

The colder it is the better the elk hunting

Really, I didn't know that...

The colder it is ,the more the in the morning and earlier in the afternoon. Real cold,they eat all day

Since this is the festive thread- Happy Turkey day to all of ya, hot and cold carriers alike, and go whack a bull Brad!

-jeff

Dude... ever heard of tongue in cheek?

OK... should have typed KILL a bull elk, Brad! :-)

-jeff

Thanks Jeff, I decided to whack a 150 class Whitetail yesterday morning on the way to elk hunt instead:

Talk about a slow, heavy, bullet!


I trust no one besides the deer was hurt?

Jetstream is pulling our weather to you. It's 42* here. It sucks...

Brad- that sucks!! Truck still work? Looks like you really nailed the sucker. Last deer I hit was a big buck too, but he ran out and hit ME on the side of my old truck. I never saw him; scared the crap out of me as I thought I'd hit someone or something big had fallen off my truck or something.

When I first got my '06 Tundra, first new truck I've ever bought, it was a disaster magnet. Trees dropped limbs on me, I somehow picked up some fresh paint off the road, and then with under 5000 miles on it a crankhead broke in, smashed the window, scratched the door all up, destroyed the dash getting my locked glove box open, and stole a pistol to boot. I've since installed a metal pistol safe in the center console... anyway... things do seem to have calmed down since then but I was swearing it'd be the last new truck I ever bought for a while there! :-)

Is it gonna screw up your hunting or do you have a backup?

Would sure be nice to have a GOOD football game today...

-jeff

Balmy 44 degrees here west of Alpine Oregon. It was 24 degrees at daybreak. My brother and I went elk hunting this morning, didn't see a thing but 4 deer.

Happy turkey day everyone.

Doc

Jeff, it runs fine... it's a toyota .

In fact, all I did was pull the quarter panel out so the tire had clearance and went elk hunting. I wasn't going to let a suicidal deer wreck my hunt...

Love the Toy's myself.... we have my Tundra and Land Cruiser. 25,600 miles on the Tundra now and I have yet to even change a light bulb!

-jeff

Saddlesore must be right. It was 75 degrees here in northern Virginia yesterday, and I didn't see one elk.

John

I haven't been following the thread; how did we get from hunting "hot" to Toyota's and the weather in Virginia???


Just curious..............

I usually hunt cold in an Isuzu and expect if it does get colder here with a bit more snow I will be able to see several hundred head of elk in a month or so.

On a more serious note the first time I remember this discussion it was on the old coffee shop and if I'm not mistaken was stated by ole "Backpack Hunter". Several who participated in this thread did so on that one also. No conclusion was reached then and none has since that and none ever will. You can make book on that!!

BTW, has anyone ever run into Backpack Hunter recently? I think his name was Don something. I always enjoyed his posting.

Yep

Dont'cha you just hate it when a deer runs into your truck?..........



Casey

I can't believe this thread is 41 pages long.........

Change your settings...I've only got 9 pages!

We just need someone to stir the pot again... then we could make it to 41 pages!

(KIDDING!)

-jeff

Cowbell?

This will come back againby June '08. It gets hotter than politics.

What is this thing called a 'safety'?

If you are packing a gun you're packing a gun. If you're hunting you should be hot in the chamber, muzzle forward if you're the lead man, muzzle up if you're not.

Wow, quite a read on cold chamber vs. hot...again.

I skipped this thread at the time because I have read many like it in the past. Inquiring as to why SH had left the forum I was directed to this thread. I'm still not sure why he would leave the forum over this, being an old pro at the banter himself.

As far as the subject matter, I'm one of the few here that isn't even qualified to give an opinion, and one of the few to actually learn a little something from such threads. I have come away from threads such as these not with an absolute theory on the subject, but hunting method that incorporates many of the opinions here.

My 700 will hold four rounds, but I only load it with three because I find it makes it much easier to slide the bolt back and push the rounds down into the magazine when need be...besides, who deserves four shots at something?

There are situations where I feel my chances are high that I am about to jump a deer, I'll slide one in, safety on, thumb at the ready and take two steps and pause with the rifle at the ready. If I am out in the open or climbing, I slide the bolt back and push the rounds down. I have yet to lose track of whether or not I had one in or out.

I'll be the first to admit to not being a good hunter, either are the guys I hunt with, but I'll still go with them for they are good friends. The first time I hunted with one such friend, on two occasions his sling slipped off his shoulder and walking behind him I found myself with a birds eye view of his barrel, so I'm not gonna argue that accidents don't happen; especially with casual hunters who only hunt three or four times a year. On the other hand I'm not prepared to say I will never slip one in the chamber when the time feels right...it doesn't have to be either or.

Many speak about being good with the bolt at crunch time where I have become good at chambering a round and un-chambering a round when the situation calls, and good with keeping track the state of my rifle.

I think there are correct answers on both sides of the fence here and months ago decided to take advantage by using the best of both sides...so there!

I read this question and I'm replying without reading any other post in this thread. Yes I hunt with a round in the chamber. When I carry one of my Glocks, be it concealed carry or open carry at camp, I carry with one in the chamber as well.

NYH2,

Thanks for playing!

The Cliff Notes version is: about a 75/25 ratio of guys who hunt with one vs. guys who don't... but the "cold" camp has some very... uh... shall we say "vocal" proponents and that resulted in an... ahem... entertaining thread. If you've got some time, read through it!

-jeff

I have never killed a Buffalo, lion or elephant with an empty rifle and I am always loaded in the chamber in the African bush..I always carry a round in the chamber when actually hunting. You will not get a shot on many ocassions with a round not in the chamber, you will be a stumbling, fumbling, dork trying to load a rifle in a tight spot or on a disapearing animal..ONly on national TV and apparantly the internet can everyone sit and talk and wait and load before they take that broadside perfect shot..Where I hunt its a bit more hectic than that..You have a window of opertunity and you had better take advantage of it...A gun pointed at nobody is a safe gun.

Never loaded in the camp, home, car, or in the saddle scabbard.

common since should be a perfect guide but I see from 42 posts this has not been the case.

Ray, agree mostly with you except "A gun pointed at nobody is a safe gun"... that simply isn't true as Remington concluded forty years ago that 100% safe gun handling is never possible.

I only keep one up the spout when I'm on the trail of something, until then the chamber is empty but then I mostly hunt alone so it's a moot point.

What was the percentage for the "It depends on the situation" camp?

Good question- I don't know. It would be WAY up there, though. Personally, if I'm putting the rifle in a position where it could be mechanically dismembered, like in a scabbard on a horse or climbing up a cliff or something, it will be unchambered. I'm guess that's true of EVERYONE. So I'd say the 'it depends...' camp is virtually everyone, ultimatly.

-jeff

Even a two-year-old can see the problem with this.




Is this dead enough?

Now, let's argue about something else.

Hey, I know, "Jeff, I didn't know Oregon was an island in the Aleutians." (You are west of me, right?)

Guess I better change it to "West of "almost all" of you, Oregon"!

:-)

Happy lookin' kid. I was seeing tons of hares up where we hunted elk this last year. I was really kicking myself for not tossing a .22 or shotgun in with all the other crap I'd brought...

-jeff

Say, south-of-me-Jeff, I thought that BLR was bullet-proof? Sort of a pun there!

You damn cantankerous "westerners"! :-)

Ironbender, I'm talking situations with big force multipliers- like cliffs and 1500-lb horses- where the literal dismemberment of the rifle is a possibility. Not walking round in the woods...

-jeff

How many ways are there to beat a dead horse...

In the right situation and with the right game not only will you not get a shell chambered you�ll be dead. I�m no snack.

I don't know, I'll get back to you when it's good and beat! :-)

-jeff

Beings how I mostly bow hunt for big game, I'd have to go with an "it depends". I usually have an arrow nocked though, but am rarely at full draw

Most of my "gun" big game hunting is done with a shotgun. I rarely go, but when I do, it is usually a drive situation. Most shots are at running deer who are already aware of you and are trying to get the hell out of dodge. Racking a slide on a shotgun makes little difference in time or noise. Most times in this situation, I go cold. Since this type of hunting appeals very little to me, it is very rare that I go.

On the even rarer occasion where I am still hunting with a gun, I am generally hot. Depends a lot on the terrain and conditions. If I am likely to walk up on an unaware deer and I am hunting alone I will carry hot.

At any rate, I rarely gun hunt. The season in OH is a week long, limited to shotguns/muzzle-loaders/revolvers, and generally filled with a bunch of degenerates out blasting at any thing that moves. This is not the type of hunting that I prefer. I can bow hunt for four months at deer that are usually unpressured. I am familiar enough with the property that I hunt that I usually have all the deer named. Gun season here just does not do much for me. Now, before I catch hell for that opinion, I will state that if I could gun hunt the same way that I bow hunt, I would probably prefer that.

BTW Jeff, look how far WEST of you I am.

Ha! Good one...

-jeff

Carry on...

The humor is Priceless........

Yes.

Nuff said,

cur dog

In much of B.C. grizzlies are common. Suprised grizzlies don't take kindly to being suprised. Also, they aren't known for always warning you of their intentions.

An unloaded rifle is, indeed, a stick.

Sticks aren't much good at dissuading charging bears.

I'm positive that becoming part of the "circle of life" - is more romantic as an abstract idea - than it would be when it is happening in real life.

Nice to see this thread still going, and going, and going.....

i keep one in the chamber for the same reason i keep a 45 auto cocked and locked on the nite stand by my bed you might not have time to chamber a round if a nice buck apears and only gives a spilt second to shoot or a armed intruder breaks in your home you better hope you don't have to wast time chambering a round

Yeah, but I'm shootin blanks! So it doesn't really matter.

I'm a very inexperianced hunter, but here is my thoughts on it.
I have three different situations
1st.
If I'm concentrated in my hunt for non-dangerous game, I would always have one in the chamber unless I was climbing something with the safety on.

2nd.
If I'm just lazily wandering the woods content weather i find game or not, I would not have one in the chamber and it would be on safe

3rd.
If I was to hunt in dangerous game areas, I would have my rifle off of safe but an empty chamber. This is because cocking the rifle would be second nature to me where is turning the safety off I would more likely forget. I would instinctively load the chamber. Turning the safety off wouldn't be as instinctive to me.

I ALWAYS hunt with one in the chamber and the rifle on safe and NEVER point my rifle at something I'm not willing to shoot.

Anything more complex than that leaves a lot of room for error and confusion in a potentially bad time or situation.

Nuff said....

$bob$

I always have one in the chamber while out hunting with a rifle unless climbing over a fence or into a stand then its time to empty the chamber.

Now with a shotgun out hunting the only time I remove the round is when I'm getting out of my layout blind while hunting waterfowl. I don't like the idea of checking decoys and maybe my dog or someone else's jumping into the blind and setting the gun off while I'm infront of the blind. So I always remove the round and stick the barrel into the floor of the blind pointing into the dirt and make anyone hunting with me do the same, if they don't and I watch everyone else too, then I pickup my decoys and go home or they go home...

This is sort of a side channel, but up where I shoot a lot it's a pretty informal range. Where I set up my "bench", I have my back to the logging road that gets you up there, which gives me the willies when I get my puffs and muffs on! Anyway, when I go down range to change targets or tape up my old holes or whatever, I don't just take any ammo out of the rifle, I pull the dang BOLT and put it in my pocket! Last thing I want is someone sneaking over there and shooting me with my own damn rifle, and it'd be pretty easy up there to get away with it, and get the $4k to $8k in rifles I usually have with me...

Anyway...

-jeff

Jeff,

When I go shooting I actually carry one of my rifles loaded with me to change the targets for exactly the same reasons you stated. Your not alone.

Yeah, I do that too most of the time... usually I have my little AR up there to screw with while the barrels are cooling. Even still I'll pull that bolt though!

-jeff

I thought I was "paranoid pete" when I had concerns like this at the range. It appears I'm not alone, and they may actually be justified. Both sides of the sword at once.

I keep a couple rounds in my pocket and open the bolt and carry the rifle with me to change/check the targets. some one could easily take the rifle while away from the bench..

Jeff - Carry with 1 round in the chamber, firing pin down on safe. Sorry about the truck.

Good point. I am starting my 8 year old hunting and this is a safty thing that when you think about it should be done with a
young new hunter.

Yea its loaded unless I am crossing a fence or climbing over brush. An unloaded gun is no good when you spot your game animal.

Does anyone hunt with an unloaded muzzleloader until they sight an animal?

That's kind of comparing apples to oranges. I can load a round from the magazine in about one second. Takes me considerably longer with my muzzlestuffers.

Mechanical safeties can and sometimes do fail and to rely on them is to accept a certain amount of risk. When hunting non-dangerous game it is a risk I often choose not to accept.

Human safeties are even less reliable. People can and do make mistakes - and rather frequently. In my experience people who suggest they are error free in their gun handling are simply wrong.

This is not to say I don't hunt with a round in the chamber. as sometimes I do and sometimes I don't. But I don't ignore the additional risk when doing so.

No one has ever been shot with an EMPTY chamber - intentionally OR accidently.
Many people have been shot with a LOADED chamber � intentionally AND accidently.

Not trying to tell anyone what to do, just pointing out some facts.

No it's not. A round in the chamber is just as live as a capped and loaded muzzleloader. You're just trying to create a justification to explain your reasoning.

Cautious and attentive gun handling trumps any mechanical "safety" any day. More people have been shot with "unloaded" guns than loaded ones.

We've hashed this stuff out on this thread- and then some- just so you know... there's a wealth of humor, blood and guts, outright insults, friendships forged and lost, arguments sharpened... all on these blighted 23 pages of this thread! :-)

I think your post (Coyote Hunter) is reasonable and well-stated. And I am not at all interested in revisiting the horse we so thoroughly beat to a dusty depression already in this thread. That said, I do take issue with this:

"No one has ever been shot with an EMPTY chamber - intentionally OR accidently."

For a couple reasons. First, for a gun handler to assume that they are carrying a "safe" firearm because it's empty can, we know, be a recipe for disaster. I carry chambered and I know, beyond any doubt, that I am carrying a loaded firearm and must act accordingly. Not saying YOU would do this, but it's pretty easy to imagine some bucko being careless because hey, his gun is empty.

Second, many gun accidents happen during the loading, unloading, and action-manipulation stages of operation a gun. When you combine the heat of the moment- buck fever- with the necessity to load your firearm, I see potential for problems there that might even completely counterbalance whatever extra safety a guy might achieve by carrying unchambered! It's certainly debateable, at least.

Anyone driving to go hunt in a truck with mud tires is risking himself and everyone else on the highway MORE than if they carried chambered (assuming proper gun handling). A vehicle is the device by far most likely to kill you violently, and by far the most likely device you will operate that could kill someone else violently. So, if you are using mud tires on the freeway (poor wet traction, etc) then... think about that. If you've lifted your truck, for shame! And if you are going 10 mph over the speed limit, don't even bother to tell ANYONE about how they are unsafe carrying hot.

Just my .02. Again. :-)

-jeff

Sorry, no one has ever been shot with an unloaded gun � it is a physical impossibility. Many people have been shot with a rifle that was believed to be unloaded, but believing a gun is unloaded does not make it so.

I agree that gun handlers need to be cautious and attentive but even the most cautious and attentive handlers have lapses, just as mechanical safeties can fail. Over the years I have seen many, many cases of human failure in this area but only one - ONE - case of a safety failure. The safest situation is an empty chamber � period.

I also agree that a capped and loaded muzzlestuffer is as dangerous as a loaded rifle. The Department of Wildlife in my home state of Colorado considers an uncapped muzzleloader to be �unloaded�, whether or not powder and bullet are loaded in the barrel. I consider such a condition to be �partially loaded� but agree with the DOW that an uncapped muzzlestuffer is far safer than one that is both loaded and capped. In fact, I often remove the cap but leave the barrel loaded with powder and bullet in situations where I would unload a cartridge rifle.

But as I said, apples and oranges. Empty chambers are often practical when rifle hunting, rarely so when hunting with a muzzlestuffer. Unless in deep woods I rarely have a rifle shot opportunity where I couldn�t load first, then shoot. The same situations are often far too fleeting to do so with my muzzlestuffers, however. This year alone I took a buck mulie and two cow elk. All three could have been taken starting with an empty rifle chamber with time to spare and while all three could easily have been taken starting with a loaded and capped muzzlestuffer, a muzzlestuffer with no powder or bullet in the chamber would have meant no game in all three situations.

As noted in my response to Bricktop above, believing a rifle is unloaded does not make it so. Mistaken beliefs are often contributing factors in a disaster, but the number of people who have been shot with unloaded rifles is exactly ZERO. The number is considerably higher for people who have been shot with rifles mistakenly BELIEVED to be unloaded.



I agree that many accidents occur while loading and unloading firearms, but most that I am aware of have occurred while in camp or at the vehicles, good places to be unloaded in my book. It would be interesting to see actual statistics on this matter.

That said, no one has ever been shot with an unloaded firearm but many have been shot with firearms that have just been loaded. In all such cases human failure is a major contributing factor.

In fact, I cannot think of a situation in which someone has been shot where human failure was not the prime contributing factor. In other words, a case in which proper gun handling technique was followed flawlessly.



Jeff �

Understand that I am not against carrying hot � I do it often, just as I often carry cold. My contention is simply that loaded chambers are less safe than empty ones. You�re not likely to get killed in your lifted truck with mud tires when you�re parked off the road.

I think the reason some contend that a person has or can be shot with an unloaded weapon is that they either don't understand the definition of unloaded, or they don't know how or simply are too lazy to check properly. Coyote Hunter is quite right; an unloaded gun cannot shoot.

And having had the experience of hunting with a rifle I thought was chambered and hot - and missed an opportunity because it wasn't, I know that the mistake could as easily be made in reverse. "I thought" does not make anything so. "I thought" must be replaced by "I know." And while the intent of "never point a weapon at something you are not willing to shoot" is a good idea and the motive behind it pure, the truth is, that barrel is going to be pointed in a lot of ways I don't want to send a bullet. I am simply not willing to walk around with a bullet stopping cap on the end of my barrel just so I can carry hot with near impunity.

The level of awareness one must have to safely carry hot requires more attention than I am willing to spare when I am hunting on a minute by minute, hour by hour basis. While I know one can become accustomed to it - which usually means one's attention to it becomes less - I will not hunt with folks I care so little about that I am willing to allow that to happen. To me, it makes more sense to keep the focus on locating game and not worry about whether everyone's barrels are pointed safely at all times- because if one really cares about their own skin, they need to be attentive to all with whom they hunt, especially so when chambers are hot.

Are there times when a chamber needs to be loaded? Of course, but the act of doing that, especially if the rifle is carried ready to go, is very simple and quick. A great majority of the time, especially where and how I hunt, that is easily accomplished. (It's surprising too, how much one can learn about animal behavior in the moment it takes to chamber a round while both of you are aware of each other. It's often not what one might assume either.)

Exactly how thick-headed are you? Look up the words "irony" and "metaphor" in a dictionary. Get someone to explain them to you. My kids understand the statement I made.


No, the safest situation is to treat every gun as if it were loaded. Exclamation point.


Couldn't care less what your "home state" considers; that's not the focus of this discussion.


Both grow on trees and the metaphor for this discussion is that a loaded gun is a loaded gun is a loaded gun. You're trying to justify your reasoning through some rather creative circular "logic."

BTW, I did find those terms. They were located on either side of "cavalier" which I found alongside the 13th definition for "unloaded": "a casually formed belief, sometimes held about weapons; cavalier"

Do you or do you not agree that ALL firearms should be treated as loaded weapons? (I really don't want to discuss the differences between figurative and literal speech.)

The discussion here is about physically loaded and unloaded firearms. As are my comments. Mistaken beliefs do not change the facts of whether a firearm is loaded or not.

I�ll accept your resort to personal attack as your tacit admission that you�ve lost the argument on the basis of merit.




While treating every gun as if it was loaded is good practice, it does not change the fact that a loaded gun can still fire while an unloaded gun cannot. The safest situation is an unloaded gun as there is ZERO chance of it being fired. Handling it as if it was loaded does not make it safer but remains good practice.




Not at all. I can load a cartridge firearm form the magazine in a second or so. It takes me much longer with my muzzlestuffers. As a result I tend to hunt hot with the muzzlestuffers far more frequently.

I�ll accept your resort to personal attack as your tacit admission that you�ve lost the argument on the basis of merit.

Treating all firearms as if they are loaded is good practice, as I stated above.

Treating an unloaded firearm as if it were loaded does not, however, make it safer. What it does do reinforce good habits. Treating all firearms as if they were loaded reduces the chance of an accidental discharge when a firearm actually is loaded - whether the condition is correctly known or not.

It's a discussion you seem to have difficulty grasping. I'll accept your inability to comprehend various figures of speech and metaphorical statements as your tacit admission that you're just a very inexperienced individual for whom discussion is often difficult and labored.


So you hunt with an unloaded muzzleloader?


Your "logic" thus far for hunting with a loaded muzzleloader vice a loaded cartridge firearm is that it takes you longer to load the muzzleloader. So by your "logic," it should be okay to hunt with a round in the chamber of a cartridge firearm as long as you leave the rest of your ammo back in the truck. Great plan.

Go ahead and try to explain again how a capped and loaded muzzleloader is safer than a loaded cartridge firearm.

If I were stationary, I would hunt with a round in the chamber. But when I'm mobile, no, never. I consider this unsafe. And my WYO guide would have a fit too!!!!!!!!!!!

More personal attack. Nice. Proves my point that you can�t argue based on the facts.


By my definition (no powder or bullet in the barrel), no. It takes me much too long to load them, although I have waited until I was far from the vehicle to load powder and bullet. Don�t really consider walking around with no powder and bullet in the barrel �hunting�. By the State of Colorado�s official definition (uncapped, whether there is powder and bullet in the barrel or not), frequently. It only takes a moment to cap the nipple (although still considerably longer than chambering a round from the magazine) and there are times I prefer the additional safety of an uncapped nipple. By the way, my go-to muzzlestuffer is a Remington M700 ML. Same trigger group and safety as the standard M700�s. (The other is a more traditional Thompson with a side-hammer.)

Your argument is a non sequitor, by the way.

Your "logic" thus far for hunting with a loaded muzzleloader vice a loaded cartridge firearm is that it takes you longer to load the muzzleloader. So by your "logic," it should be okay to hunt with a round in the chamber of a cartridge firearm as long as you leave the rest of your ammo back in the truck. Great plan.
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Another non sequitor.

What I�ve said consistently was I hunt with both loaded and unloaded chambers depending on the circumstances. I�m quite comfortable doing so because it only takes a second to chamber a round, whether with my bolt guns or my levers. I tend to hunt hot (capped, with powder and bullet in the barrel) with my muzzlestuffers because loading time is much longer � not because a loaded muzzlestuffer is safer than a loaded cartridge rifle but because the time lost in loading them could cause lost shot opportunities. That said it is not uncommon for me to walk into or out of an area with an empty barrel and uncapped nipple. As noted above I don�t really consider such walks �hunting�. It is not uncommon for me to no cap on my Remington yet have powder and bullet in the barrel, although by and large this condition is considerably less frequent than an empty chamber in my cartridge rifles.




Twist it anyway you want, but I�ve never said a loaded (capped, with powder and bullet in the barrel) muzzlestuffer is any safer than a cartridge firearm with a loaded chamber. Never said it or even suggested it, no matter how obliquely. Nor do I believe it to be the case.

I hunt hot or cold depending on the circumstances of the moment and have not advocated one method or the other. All I�ve done is point out the obvious - that unloaded firearms are safer than loaded firearms. Apparently some here think that good handling technique can overcome the potential danger of a loaded firearm, rendering them as safe as unloaded firearms. Such arguments defy both logic and common sense.

Remember- Don't hunt while your loaded.

So, just to make sure I understand, you mean you would unload before you get loaded?

Or is it, don't get loaded while you're loaded?

Or is it okay to get loaded while you're loaded, but only if the circumstances would make being unloaded while you're loaded more dangerous than being loaded-loaded?

Absolutely not. It's an observation of your communication style based on your inability to understand certain figures of speech, the inability to understand metaphors, the inability to notice how certain words are emphasized by being placed in quotations, and your literal interpretation of various statements.


My argument asks for a simple yes or no answer. You've instead chosen to respond with a rather creative answer describing Colorado's legal definition of a loaded firearm that only thinly disguises your hypocrsiy.

I'll break it down to your terms: do you or do you not hunt with an UNCAPPED muzzleloader? Just answer yes or no.

Absolutely not. It highlights your hypocritical argument.

What you've stated consistently is you believe the time required to load a muzzleloader somehow makes it less dangerous than a loaded cartridge firearm.


I haven't seen anything yet in anything you've posted in this discussion that would qualify as either logic or "common" sense. You've stated that you think it's too dangerous to hunt with a loaded cartridge firearm, but you don't apply the same safety practice to a muzzleloader because you take longer to load it. You're either a hypocrite with regards to safety or you're very inexperienced with firearms.

In a word, "Yes".

Now that's the best advice of this entire thread!


I can't believe this thread is still alive........



Casey

Troll built himself a 22 page bridge.....

Just when you thought it was safe to go into the woods:

Its personal attack whether you choose to acknowledge it or not.



What I�ve done was provide conflicting definitions, the legal definition for this state and my own, as well as how I hunt. You ask if I hunt with an uncapped muzzlestuffer and the answer is clearly provided in my post above as �frequently�. That would be a �Yes� in some circumstances and a �No� in others. There is no hypocrisy there, just decisions to act differently as I see fit in varying circumstances.




Another non-sequitor, yes. The time required to load a firearm does not affect the safety of the loaded firearm. The reason I tend to hunt with a loaded (capped with powder and bullet in the barrel) muzzlestuffer more frequently than with a loaded cartridge rifle is that doing otherwise (even with just the cap removed) would cause me to lose shot opportunities that would not be lost with a cartridge rifle that simply needed to be loaded from the magazine.





On the contrary, I have never stated or suggested that and do not believe it to be true.

Let me be as clear as I can here � my belief is that a loaded (capped with powder and bullet in the barrel) muzzlestuffer is just as dangerous as a cartridge firearm that has a loaded chamber. That is why I often remove the cap just as I would empty a chamber.




To repeat myself, I hunt hot or cold with BOTH my cartridge rifles and muzzlestuffers as I feel appropriate for the circumstances at hand.

And contrary to your assertion, I have NEVER stated I think �it's too dangerous to hunt with a loaded cartridge firearm�. This is (at least) the second assertion you�ve made regarding my statements that is a complete fabrication.

Perhaps you would see the logic in my statements if you weren�t so busy inventing things to attribute to me that I haven�t said.

Where I hunt, yes I always have a round in the chamber. If hunting some area in another part of the country where you need to hike or climb and not worry about jumping the animal you're hunting I could see where circumstances might be different.

Perhaps you're just a little insecure and thin-skinned, but I'm only posting my observations. Whether you acknowledge it or not.


Can you or can't you just answer yes or no?


Again, you're trying to stretch things here and justify your answer by making 2 + 2 = 5. You're trying to justify one firearm is safer than the other simply because it takes you longer to load it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bfq5kju627c



No, you've stated over and over that you believe it's dangerous to hunt with a round in the chamber of a cartridge firearm. Yet when the same circumstances are applied to a muzzleloader -- a "muzzlestuffer," in your parlance -- you state that you hunt more often with a capped, live muzzleloader becuase you're afraid you'll miss a shooting opportunity. That line of thinking by itself tells me you're either an over-confident firearms neophyte or simply a hypocrite about safety.


No, you've stated that you think it's more dangerous to hunt with a live round in the chamber of a cartridge firearm than a capped and loaded muzzleloader. That's your assertion, not mine.


I've only had to quote your posts. I'm too tired and lazy to invent anything.

To summarize what I've gleaned from your posts:

You believe it's basically a dangerous condition to hunt with a live round in the chamber of a cartridge firearm, though you sometimes do as the circumstances dictate.

You believe it can be dangerous to hunt with a capped and loaded muzzleloader, though you tend to do more often than not because of the length of time it takes you to cap one.

You think the two types of firearms can't be compared even though they both launch projectiles that can be potentially hazardous to the recipient.

You are unfamiliar with the adage "More people have been shot with 'unloaded' guns than with loaded guns." (Note the quotation marks.)

Those are your beliefs are they not? (Just answer yes or no.)

My take is every gun should be treated as if it were loaded. Safety rules should be applied consistently to ALL firearms and under ALL circumstances. Anything less highlights your ignorance or hypocrisy.