Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Canada Outfitter convicted

Mr.1akhunter;
I would like to say thank you for your post and the thoughts you shared. I appreciated it very much.

Obviously, like most of us here, I find the actions of the individuals involved reprehensible. As you noted, it gives all hunters all a bad name at a time we can ill afford it.

I will apologize to all for repeating this, but as I have written before, I have friends who are former guides, acquaintances who are still guide-outfitters and friends who are passionately working to put an end to all non-resident hunting. In both camps there are folks who have valid points and of course both sides have extremists as well.

The Annual Allowable Harvest is the split of big game allowed to be killed by residents and non-residents, who according to provincial law must be guided. In the not too recent past, I was directly involved in some very confrontational AAH meetings where both sides were present in force and expressed their views in that way. I say this only to clarify that I have a working knowledge of some of the mechanics of wildlife management.

As others have mentioned, we have been promised changes in some of the wildlife laws, so I am cautiously hopeful that some meaningful changes in the fine structure will be forthcoming. Larger fines may prevent some of these individuals from, as you apptly put it, �defecating in their own backyard�.

While this particular fellow seems to be originally from elsewhere, in this case the US, I can�t see that as anything other than a peripheral issue. There have been abundant instances of home grown abusers, some mentioned in this thread.

The root of the issue as I see it, is that unfortunately we as hunters, consumptive users, harvesters or what ever we go by today, have not been able to persuade our current or previous governments (different political parties BTW) to give much more than token notice to wildlife management overall. Penalties that suit the infractions, including larger fines is only a portion of what I believe needs to be addressed.

I�ll end by noting that my position isn�t a popular one, others will disagree with me and of course they have every right to do so.

Anyway, I wanted to say I appreciated your post.

Regards,
Dwayne

Dwayne
please show me an example of fines stopping a thief, poacher, whatever... When wildlife is regarded more highly than human life, and fines prove it, What good have we really done?

Poachers believe the fines are for someone else as they will never get caught...

I know little about Canada politics, but I think there is one thing bankable in US-Canada relations. If Canada were to be so ill-advised as to stop US hunters from hunting Canada the retaliation would be swift and sure.

Take a walk through a Safari Club Int'l bourse and look for famous and recognizeable folks. There will be a bunch of them. Too many too willing to make selfish decisions to believe it impossible... But I think it extremely unlikely the move will get anywhere.
art

Then why on earth would you post about it on a US-owned and operated forum? If no one but British Columbians have anything to say about it, and everyone else's opinion is irrelevant -- kindly restrain yourself to fulminating about it in British Columbia.

You do realize, of course, that the original inhabitants and owners of western Canada feel exactly the same way about you European latecomers and your use of their resources...

DN

If non resident hunting is banned in BC, it will be most likely be the work of the general population, not the resident hunters.

I could see some unscrupulous outfitter and client making the news for something bad...(probably to do with grizzlies or some other fashionable animal)

And the public saying "Why do we allow these foreigners to run these outfits and sell our animals to other foreigners and then they act disrespectfully and break our laws"

And the politicians getting on the bandwagon and expressing thier outrage...

And that will be that....

That is EXACTLY what IS happening now and it WILL grow, no question, as there is NO real value to the general B.C. public to allow ANY non-res. hunting/fishing here.

All it will take is an article or two, in the major newspapers and a TV news special, VERY easy to arrange and the campaign to make these changes will begin among the general public; link this to "softwood" in B.C. and manage the media well and it will happen VERY quickly....it will, anyway, as B.C. is changing and foreign hunting is ALREADY very unpopular here.

I have not yet made my final decision concerning this, however, arrogance by ill-informed and obviously self-interested foreigners certainly will influence how I, and other B.C.ers make our individual decisions concerning this and all other B.C.-Canadian resource issues, including OIL.

My comments here have been in response to the original post and this is the CANADIAN section of the Campfire; if, this is not acceptable to Americans here, well, they can always request that RickBin close this section of his site or ban me or any other Canadian, as is his right.

It's ironic how some Yanks fulminate about "freedom", such as the freedom of speech, yet, are among the very first to attempt to abrogate this when others dare to presume that they have the right to opinions about THEIR OWN country, how very typical.

The slur about ...original inhabitants...of B.C. is hilarious, coming from a citizen of the nation that SLAUGHTERED the original inhabitants of THEIR country, as we Canadians have NEVER done. So, again, typical arrogance and erroneous historical allusion, a Campfire constant among the illiterates who suffer from the delusion that they actually know anything beyond how to make ignorant and irrelevant comments.

...retaliation..., by the SCI????? Oh, REALLY, will the Bushites retaliate against B.C. making it's own decisions about who may/may not hunt/fish here? I seriously DOUBT IT as there is this little issue, called "energy security" and NO Bushite is going to stress Canadian-American relations any further over something like hunting by a tiny minority of wealthy Yanks in B.C. The very idea is ridiculous, but, hey, have at 'er, the SCI will be run out of B.C. in mere weeks.

Again, this was not intended as a Canadian-American issue, but, as usual, certain posters just have to make it one. This attitude reflects a belief that they have some "right" to be involved in B.C. resource decisions and to hunt/fish or "own" GO concessions here, if they wish. Funny, it seems to me that this is EXACTLY the sort of attitude that Bryan Martin has and acts upon and it is definitely GOING to influence me and other B.C. citizens on our lobbying to change the present situation....NOT to the benefit of foreign hunters/anglers.

Sad, really, but we CANNOT allow scum like Martin to continue taking advantage of Canadian generosity and those who defend his type of behaviour or advocate foreign influence over/control of B.C. resources will have only themselves to blame if the public here decides that non-res. use of our resources is banned. Food for thought, it seems to me.

Some good points there Kute but lets not forget the USA is our largest trade partner and when we export 90% of what comes out of the ground exception being coal and 90 % above ground we need not bite the hand that feeds. If Ted Nugent wants to bow hunt in northern BC he probably will and the laws will be adjusted to accomodate him rather than you. Hate to say that but business is business.

Well, WE have been winning environmental battles here since the 1970s and have backed down a number of huge foreign corporations in the process.

I do not give a ratsazz about placating the U.S.A., although I seriously DOUBT that this would ever become an issue affecting trade between Canada and ANY other country; it simply is not important enough among international trade issues.

As you say, ...business is business...and most foreign business people DO NOT WANT to cause a public outcry in Canada. I just don't see ANY nation's government getting too chuffed over B.C's hunting regulations, but, this is not really my current concern.

We need to approach this a single issue at a time and the first goal must be to eliminate foreign involvement in any form in B.C.s GO industry. THEN, we need to analyze the situation to determine WHETHER foreign hunting/angling IS beneficial to B.C. and go from there. However, I think that Gatehouse is right, it will very probably be banned soon, anyway.

I believe the foreign ownership of guiding and outfitting business can be traced back to the free trade agreement. Is there not some clause about equal business opportunities????

Famous and recognizeable folks are going to deliver swift and sure retaliation. Thats its boys, give it up, we are done for. I know, we can just roll-over stop hunting and let the foreigners have 100% access to our wildlife. Because if we don't the retaliation will be something awful to be hold. All you BC residents quivering in your boots now. Yankees think they own the world, they can't help it, its their upbringing.

I've only hunted in your beautiful country one time - I wish it could be often - and I understand your passion about your wildlife and the encroachment of same that you perceive by "outsiders" but I'm not sure your eliminating them by law (if you can) is the answer. A native B.C'er does the same damage. I would hate to see law-abiding sports persons from anywhere denied hunting or fishing access to any place in the world provided it's by sound management principles and quotas.

Nor did I note any US'ers here being arrogant or expressing a "right" to hunt Canada or B.C. Whether any here believe it or not we are fast passing out of "the right to hunt era" and into "the privilege to hunt" era regardless of who you are or where you are, native or not. Laws granting the right not withstanding. Populations are increasing while game and habitat is decreasing. It's a simple fact and if you're granted lifetime free access hunting (Native Americans here in the States on the reservations) it doesn't matter if the game isn't there.

I decry this Mr. Martin and any when and if they break game laws or any civil laws for that matter. Perhaps the answer must be in harsher penalties; ie, prison time on a one-strike-and-you're-out-basis, confiscation of all OG equipment, etc.

I don't think exclusionary laws would be beneficial in the long run but I could be wrong. If you carry that concept out to the fullest extent, the next thing would be to deny Albertans hunting privileges in BC and vica versa, or Wyoming Cowboys in CO. It doesn't sound like the best solution for the most folks.

But, again, to finish this thought that assumes no wasting of resources, breaking of any laws, or generally being a bad citizen by any guest hunting or operating in your counry.

gdv

I don't know if free trade is involved but I do know that a few German GO have taken out small-business loans at low interest sponsored by the government to build big log homes which they live in only during hunting season with their guests. When drilling activity began in those areas they promptly stuck out their hands for assistance since their businesses began failing which was a crock-since it was already failing prior to the drilling activity. They also attacked Oil companies (law suites)which were employing a lot of BC folk and did shutdown some projects. Black mail basically was used. Their failing enterprise began when airfares shot up due to fuel prices etc, thus fewer Europeans came to hunt. Tax payers basically paid for the businesses.

Dwayne,


appreciate the kind comments about my post.


I certainly "get" the ire associated with the exploitation of a resource.

We are facing similar issues here in AK, our Dall sheep opportunities have been some of the most accessible of anywhere in North America. But it seems that may soon come to a crashing halt if reasonable limitations are not imposed.

Therein lies the rub, what's reasonable?

for me reason leans more to the side of residential preference, makes sense since I am a resident.

for others they see our sheep population probably much like any other be it Rocky Mountain or desert sheep and probably feel management as done in those populations is good enough for us.

I always encourage folks to hunt here, I love Alaska and wasn't born here, but I loved it enough to move here, for folks to get that, the easiest way to see what I love about the place is for them to spend some time in the bush, to climb a mountain and not see any sign of civilization.

for those of us that those experiences make your heart sing, I'm not sure it really matters where your body was born at, but more of where your heart and head is at.

I also hate to see hunting in places you were not fortunate enough to be born in turned into a rich man's sport, but it seems that is exactly what is happening whether I desire it or not.

I wish Canadians the best of luck in managing their wildlife and wild places and hope she shares the same well wishes in our endeavors to do so here.

My personal viewpoint is that big game is too precious to be treated as a commodity and should be treated as a treasure.

It's where I turn from a capitalist into more of a socialist.

I'd like to see our lands and resources managed for the benefit of our residents primarily. But I hate to see the experience taken away from anyone not fortunate enough to live here, or make it so exclusive that only the rich need apply.

I hope as residents our game populations will be managed first and foremost for residents. And I'd like to see a lottery system with point preferential for non residents. In a perfect world for me, the non resident, middle class guy would have just as good of a chance to draw a tag as the rich guy.

some of my fondest memories of guiding were spending time with true outdoorsmen that sucked up the whole experience like a kid draining the last drops of a milkshake, they loved it all, the weather, the scenery, the openeness and the GAME.

Many of them came from middle class backgrounds and had scrimped and saved to afford this opportunity to visit a still wilderness experience.

I hope guys like that will always have an opportunity, they end up being advocates for something that is so important to so many of us.

there are both ends of the spectrum, folks that want to deny others opportunities cause "I got here first" and folks that don't care what happens "as long as they get theirs, whether it be game or money in the pursuit of game"

I hope here in AK we find some middle ground.

I hope in Canada you find yourself where the majority of Canadians want to be on the issue. (though the majority is not always correct ime)

good luck Canada, I've passed thru your countryside though never hunted it, what you have is precious, I hope you guard it and protect it, but I hope you find a place in your heart to share it with others, whether they were lucky enough to be born there or not.

I'm actually surprised this guy Martin is not being shipped out. From what I have seen on the news over the years there have been people convicted of a crime in Canada or in the U.S. that have been promptly sent backing back to there country. (Read that to mean the U.S.) Unless it is a heinous crime and the Canadian gov. thinks we would do something to the criminal they do not approve of. Also, people have been denied entree to Canada for having a misdemeanor violation.

As for having everything owned by by residents; it would be nice in a way. I have often had the same attitude, but quell it with what is fair. Having operations owned by residents might be a good thing. We could be like Mexico in that regard. Then the company my Mom works for wouldn't be Canadian owned. It is. (She thinks highly of them too.) Then we wouldn't have Canadian mining companies trying to rip open the ground here for us to deal with long after they have gone.

As far as residents go my mother-in-law has a cousin living in Sask. and a friends sister is living in Alberta. They Married Canadians. Several other people I have known married Canadian girls including my Uncle 50 years ago and we had a Canadian on our local Search and Rescue team. Another good guy. Should they all go back?

Mr. Sitka deer;
Thank you for the response and giving me some food for thought.

To answer your first question, I can not name an instance that I am aware of in which a fine worked as a preventative for a thief. As a hypothesis on my part then, if the fines at least make the criminal act less profitable it may be less attractive to new recruits?

Perhaps it is that I feel frustrated if nothing is done to address it, but on balance you may well be correct and it may not have the desired effect. A preventative fine that stops an honest person from speeding may well have no correlation to what might induce a thief to stop stealing.

I unfortunately agree with your 2nd comment on where we have degenerated to as a society if and when we place a higher value on animals than humans. That could well be a separate topic for discussion, albeit a depressing one.

I am not all certain what direction the whole resident and non-resident hunting issue will take, but I will hope for and work toward a reasonable compromise.

I do appreciate your thoughts and the way they were conveyed. Thanks again.

Regards,
Dwayne

Mr. 1akhunter;
Thank you for further clarifying your position.

I found myself agreeing with much of what you posted. From what you wrote, we face similar hurdles with regard to managing our wild resources wisely and have a common love for wild spaces.

It would seem logical to me that if we as hunters could find common ground and work together we could accomplish more than if we fragment.

Again, I appreciated your 2nd post. Thanks.

Regards,
Dwayne

Hello all,

the main problem is even convicted with wildlife offence he can still guide.. and of course still being an Outfitter.

we can dream about a better world and change the laws ...


the provinces of Manitoba, New Brunswick and Newfoundland-Labarador (are the only ones from my datas and what i know) wont allow you to act as guide if you re convicted of any wildlife offences but what about other territories or provinces ?

In Quebec you can still act as a guide even without hunting license ... but we re not alone for sure ...

The most important aspect of this situation seems to be missed in most posts here; that is that Bryan Martin and others of his type COULD NOT break B.C. wildlife laws IF they were not able to obtain the GO concession here. So, we ban all non-B.C. born persons from holding GO concessions and certain improvements in the entire situation will quickly happen.

The first is that scum like him will NEVER be able to hunt or guide here again and that IS going to happen, no matter what it takes to bring it about. I just had a friend of mine and his buddy, an experienced guide here, come by my house to pick up a mountain tent and they both agree on this issue.

Then, the highly inflated cost of buying a B.C. GO concession will be reduced to a sum that ordinary B.C. citizens can afford and thus our own people can afford to buy a GO concession when they want to. I have another buddy who would like to buy a concession and this would enable him to do so.

Another benefit of such a policy is that BC outfitters will BE B.C. people and are much more likely to be in it for the long haul and not plunder the resource base. This will benefit EVERYONE concerned and if foreign GOs don't like it, too bloody bad, they don't belong here, anyway.

It's all good where B.C. citizens are concerned and this is what I am interested in as whatever others do in THEIR countries is really not my affair. I do not believe in interfering in other people's internal affairs and suggest that non-B.C'ers here do likewise.

It AIN'T about Canada-USA, this is an internal B.C. affair and that is all it is.

Kute,

wish you can do what you want but not pretty sure all the people involved in the guiding industry in BC will follow you ...
especially GOABC ???!!!

they re some guides that have concessions and are BC born but i wont go hunt with them so ... where you are born dont give you all the keys to do what you want at least...

Kute may you add when you say ..."... we ban ..." ... is we will ban as for now this is not illegal to be a GO without being BC born ...!! just to be sure to understand.

sorry my english is not that good sometimes.

At present, a person must be a "B.C. resident" to hold the GO's licence and this means that ANY person who qualifies for "landed immigrant" status here CAN then obtain said licence after a period of residence. Bryan Martin, for example, lists an AMERICAN address as his home on his website and uses Dawson Deveny, one of a family of American immigrants to hold the GO licence.

This is commonplace here and most of the best concessions ARE American-owned with Canadian "frontmen" and a number of the other good concessions are owned by Germans using the same loophole in the law. The B.C. Wildlfe Federation opposes this and wants ALL GOS to BE Canadians and ALL concessions to expire permanently at the end of the current holder's tenure, as when one retires or dies.

I DO have a bit of difficulty with your second sentence, are you opposed to hunting here in B.C. with a GO born here for some reason? It seems odd to me, but, I may be misunderstanding your point.

In any case, whatever the GOABC wants/does not want means jackschitt to me, they are not the owners of B.C. and although many of them seem to think they are, the vast majority of B.C. people would not agree. Fugem, they are a "thorn in the side"of resident B.C. hunters and it is time they got a comeuppance.

We residents WILL win on this issue, wait and see.

Kute,

i said i wish you ll won what you want but not sure if even the residents want that. and i support your point. but as you stated too BCers GO are mostly US and German ops ...

you dont care about GOABC but they re mostly ruling GO ops.

and i wrote that being born in BC will not give the best as everyone known this is not the born that make a good one or not : but you can make your rules. some BCers born GO have ben convicted in the past for wildlife offences and they re still in the industry.

and i wish too that people of BC will say what they want exactly, but are they aware of GOs industry ?...