Wasn't there a thread here about his guy a few years ago getting convicted of something? Anyone have a link?
Poachers fined, Trustfund benefits
For Immediate Release
2008ENV0036-000478
April 4, 2008
Ministry of Environment
TWO MEN ORDERED TO PAY $8,750 FOR WILDLIFE OFFENCES
MACKENZIE � B.C. resident Bryan Martin and Alberta resident Mark Greenlee pleaded guilty to Wildlife Act offences in a Mackenzie courtroom last week.
Martin was charged with knowingly making a false statement to a conservation officer. Greenlee was charged with hunting big game while not a resident, knowingly making a false statement to a conservation officer and unlawful possession of wildlife.
Both men received fines and were ordered to pay penalties totalling $8,750. Greenlee was ordered to pay $3,750 and Martin was ordered to pay $5,000. The Habitat Conservation Trust Fund will receive $8,500 of the penalties paid.
In addition to the monetary penalties, Greenlee has been ordered not to hunt in B.C. for a period of two years and to forfeit the seized wildlife (a grizzly bear, mountain goat and a caribou).
This investigation resulted from an inspection on a guide outfitter camp located in northern B.C., near the Kemess mine. The Mackenzie Conservation Officer Service determined a number of documents had been altered with regard to the wildlife harvested.
The maximum penalty for a first offence conviction under the B.C. Wildlife Act is $50,000 or imprisonment for a term of six months, or both.
The B.C. government will introduce changes this spring to the Wildlife Act that will include tough new penalties to prevent and punish poaching and killing of endangered species
Bryan Martin enuff said...
The best thing that everyone can do is to not support these outfitters. There are enough decent ones out there!
That guys been busted before....Should deport his poaching ass back to the states.Actually the more I read about these outhousefitters the more I'd like to see B.C closed to forgein hunters..
You want to hunt here you should pay taxes here is how I see it..
A.K.A residents only...
Bryan Martin is an American who, I was forcefully told here about two years ago, ...is living his dream in B.C... and this is NOT his first go-'round with the Wildlife Act. He has guided several big name American gun writers within the past several years and is a real favourite with that crowd.
He has written a colume in backpack hunting gear for one of the glossy hunting mags and is, it would appear, highly thought of by many American backpack hunters. He may not yet realize it, but, he is going to get the boot from the GO business here as some of us have had ENOUGH of this kind of crap.
ONLY native-born Canadians should be allowed to hold Guide-Outfitter territories, licences and the same with Assistant Guide Licences, period. I am sick and tired of some foreigner telling me where I can hunt in MY COUNTRY, as one German did some years ago....my reaction was NOT friendly.
Too many immigrants and foreigners involved in B.C. hunting, now and IT IS GOING TO STOP!!!!!
Bryan Martin go home, we don't want you or your kind in B.C.!!!!!
So does anyone have an article describing the first offense? IIRC, it was hunting illegally on a resident lic?
Lighten up, plenty of Canadians have committed crimes in the US. If you have problems with it, contact your polatician.
Lighten up, plenty of Canadians have committed crimes in the US. If you have problems with it, contact your polatician.
[bleep] that.......Kick his ass outta here and be done with it...Why waste money and [bleep] around...Get out IMMIGRANT THIEF is the way it should be viewed by us Canadians...
Martin was convicted in Smithers in July, 2006, IIRC, of other offences concerning residency requirements and this was told to me by CO Kevin Wyatt there in a phone call.
Another GO in the north, from Texas, has a VERY shady "rep"with a number of others in the business and I will not post his name for obvious reasons. There WAS an incident where he pointed a rifle at some local hunters when they tried to stay in an old cabin on CROWN LAND, as he wanted to bunk his American hunters there. I have not heard what the outcome of this was, but, several people I trust in the business warned me about him....one was involved with HBC, you know who I mean.
SO, this is becoming an increasingly severe problem as MANY of the best Stone's Sheep outfits ARE American owned and use "frontmen".....time to eliminate this from B.C. by legislation, asap. I am just waiting until the new "Wildlife Act" is published and then we will begin the political lobbying to end this travesty.
I would LIKE to see Martin do a stretch of "two years less a day"in Prince George Regional....THEN kick his azz back to Oregon.
Kute they'd kill him in there...The Natives would bash his skull in, within a week or less...
Come on , your giving Prince George a bad name
.
It lends itself to that all by itself.......
Keep spreading the word , it helps maintain all the good hunting for the local folks up here.
So where's Greenhorn?????
He had his panties all in a bunch the last go round, when Brian Martin was called out as a poachin Mofo.
5k for a second offence is a joke......
RO
Sounds like he was caught poaching in my hunting grounds , grrrr.He could at least have the courtesay to leave me those nice MR packs he has.
Lighten up, plenty of Canadians have committed crimes in the US. If you have problems with it, contact your polatician.
And they should be convicted of a crime and punted out of the USA.
What is your point?
Actually if you do crime in the US, you will do the time before you are punted and never to return. The small fine payed isn't much of a deterrent when he pulls in 200,000 dollars a year for hunting. The laws are to lax and should be ammended. He should receive the maximum sentence for sure if he is a repeat offender.
It doesn't much matter whether it is a resident or a carpetbagger, anyone with such a total lack of ethics and integrity should have the building dropped on their heads. They are a stench in the nostrils of any honest man,hunter or not.
Well said ET,
but I find myself in agreement with my neighbors, if you want to run a business in a country or province/state, you should be a resident of said state, especially when it has to do with a resource housed of said state or province.
doesn't completely eliminate the problem, but it's a step in the correct direction imo, most folks aren't as inclined to defecate in their own backyard and just leave the mess lay.
profits generated by the exploitation or harvest if it makes you feel better by a finite resource should for the most part stay where the resource is housed.
I don't blame Canadians for being upset about it, unethical hunters give us all a bad name. Unethical hunters that are there as a "guest" only rubs salt into the wound.
if the situation was reversed and Alaska had a rogue Canadian outfitter, I'd be even more incensed by his lack of ethics.
Sorry Canadians, for the actions of one of our countrymen.
I hope you realize that most Americans see you as a neighbor and not a colony.
Bryan Martin IS, I am informed, a "resident" of B.C., however, this is simply not good enough. The ONLY persons who should be allowed to hold a Guide-Outfitter's territory or an Assistant Guide's Licence should be native-born Canadians or maybe native-born B.C.ers and this would go a long way to ending this type of bullschit.
Hunting in B.C. is NOT a "right" that anyone can gain access to by merely paying for a licence, it is a PRIVILEGE and it has not been sufficiently protected or properly administered by any government so far. The financial profits from resource use must be kept strictly in B.C. and this is NOT happening now.
This is NOT a "Canadian-American" issue, I am opposed to ANY foreign "ownership" or involvement in ANY Canadian resource issue, always have been, always will be and I totally oppose "immigration" here in order to gain access to hunting or any other B.C. resource.
At present, several of the finest hunting territories in B.C. are controlled by foreign "owners" and they have exclusive contracts with the local air charter companies. They use CROWN airstrips and yet use these contracts to keep resident hunters out of "their" territories, this is a commonplace activity and it results in foreign hunters having nearly exclusive access to B.C.'s rarest game and best hunting areas.
So, a "band-aid" solution will NOT work here, the entire situation MUST be totally re-vamped and getting rid of scumbags like Bryan Martin is only the first step in that process.
I also want to see foreign fishing on high use lakes and rivers banned totally as this has ruined our ability to catch and keep enough fish for our annual food supply as we formerly did. Some of the watercourses involved would be Kootenay Lake, the Vedder River and the Dean River, among others.
It is time to begin to protect Canada's resources and wilderness from exploitation by foreigners like Martin and we cannot act too quickly in this regard.
The shame of it is that as long as he is allowed to outfit,people will continue to hire him.We have the same situation in Alberta with Lloyd Mcmahon.He has been convicted of several offenses on more than one occasion,but he is allowed to continue outfitting.Worse yet,many people still hire him because he produces big trophies,legally or otherwise.
I can certainly understand why non resident hunters would want to settle in BC.Think about it , is there a better place on this planet to hunt when u look at the variety and abundance of game.I agree , guideing outfits should be owned by native born BCers and preferably people that reside in BC year round.Would like to hear Bryans side of this incident before we lynch him here but highly doubt that would happen.
No, NOT ...Canadian residents..., native-born B.C.ers ONLY and THEY must reside here, year-'round. ANY jackazz can get "Canadian" residency or even our degraded citizenship, so, there HAS to be much tighter control over who can obtain a GO territory.
As to Martin's ...side... of this situation, this is the SECOND time he has been CONVICTED, not merely charged; I have utter contempt to him, do not want him in my country and he WILL be out of the GO business, no matter what it takes!
No, NOT ...Canadian residents..., native-born B.C.ers ONLY
So a baby born to recent immigrants to B.C.(and Canada for that matter) would be allowed to outfit when they are old enough to hold an outfitters permit,yet a person born in another province that has lived in B.C. for 30 or 40 years,can't?That is about the silliest thing that I have ever heard.
Funnier yet is the plan by a Canadian mining company to dig a monster copper, moly and lead mine at the headwaters of the richest fishing area in Alaska. because they are Canadians their standards of proof of ability to pay for environmental problems is LESS than for an American company...
Kutenay's rant reminds me of the story of the old-time Maine resident that died after spending the last 95 of his 98 years in the same small town. His obit read "He was almost one of us."
art
Did not read the whole site here, but there are several factual errors in what I did read...
http://www.aktrekking.com/pebble/facts.htmlart
The shame of it is that as long as he is allowed to outfit,people will continue to hire him.We have the same situation in Alberta with Lloyd Mcmahon.He has been convicted of several offenses on more than one occasion,but he is allowed to continue outfitting.Worse yet,many people still hire him because he produces big trophies,legally or otherwise.
Oh GAWD! Theres' that Mcmahon NAME again!!
the fines he paid were but a pittance of what he was making, it was actually worth his while to keep geting caought , as he was still allowed to operate!
Cat
Funnier yet is the plan by a Canadian mining company to dig a monster copper, moly and lead mine at the headwaters of the richest fishing area in Alaska. because they are Canadians their standards of proof of ability to pay for environmental problems is LESS than for an American company...
t
Very relevent to the topic of an outfitter busted twice in 2 years...
Was responding to the strayed talk of barring immigrants from guiding. Did not realize the Canadian forum here was held to different standards...
art
The opinions of a foreigner on anything in B.C. are NOT relevant to OUR decisions, period. Such arrogant comments typify the attitudes of a cetain type of American where B.C. resources are concerned; I am simply amused by the ...rant...reference, as that is how they usually attempt to discredit those who DARE to want to protect OUR land, water, wildife and so forth.
This is a B.C. issue and it must and WILL be dealt with by those of us who OWN this Province and all that it contains. If, it becomes necessary to eliminate all non-resident hunting here, so be it, the decision is OURS and OURS ALONE. As it happens, NO, an American who comes here and lives here is NOT ...one of us...and NEVER will be, "love it or shove it", I really don't care.
This is a B.C. issue and it must and WILL be dealt with by those of us who OWN this Province and all that it contains.
Many of the largest property owners in B.C.were not born in Canada,let alone B.C..And whether you like it or not,many of them have more influence than you do.
So whom would be more miserable, I wonder... the Americans forced to return to the US, or Canadians forced to return if the US retaliated in kind?
And which is the larger group? Yeah, it is Canadians in the US and by a sizeable margin, I bet...
art
Canada vs America...what a original thread...
Gatehouse
No, not exactly... You question how I could possibly post something as similar as resource development in AK by Canadians toward posts railing against resource development in Canada by Americans...
I make the point that Canada and the US have many shared citizens. It was not intended as a slam, nor a challenge, but rather citing the length of the tentacles such rules could create. I apologize if you find that offensive. It was not my intent.
I simply find zenophobia amusing and do not practice it.
art
Anyone who believes this issue would be solved by only having "Canadian born" people own and operate these outfits is TOTALLY missing the point.
The illegal behavior is brought on by greed, and the ever growing obsession to have the highest B&C score, no matter what.
This behavior is not exclusive to American's.
Im sure there are plenty of Canadians who break wildlife laws on a regular basis.
Instead of "big talk" on the internet bashing non residents, or residents, or native born residents why don't you work on making wildlife offenses more than a slap on the wrist?
Thats part of what I am working on here in Oregon, and personally I don't care where a poacher is from. I just care that the theiving SOB isn't going to do it again.
Gatehouse
No, not exactly... You question how I could possibly post something as similar as resource development in AK by Canadians toward posts railing against resource development in Canada by Americans...
I make the point that Canada and the US have many shared citizens. It was not intended as a slam, nor a challenge, but rather citing the length of the tentacles such rules could create. I apologize if you find that offensive. It was not my intent.
I simply find zenophobia amusing and do not practice it.
art
Not offended...Just being a smart ass
The opinions of a foreigner on anything in B.C. are NOT relevant to OUR decisions, period. Such arrogant comments typify the attitudes of a cetain type of American where B.C. resources are concerned; I am simply amused by the ...rant...reference, as that is how they usually attempt to discredit those who DARE to want to protect OUR land, water, wildife and so forth.
This is a B.C. issue and it must and WILL be dealt with by those of us who OWN this Province and all that it contains. If, it becomes necessary to eliminate all non-resident hunting here, so be it, the decision is OURS and OURS ALONE. As it happens, NO, an American who comes here and lives here is NOT ...one of us...and NEVER will be, "love it or shove it", I really don't care.
I couldn't agree with Kootenay more, it is a BC resource and the management of it should be in the hands of British Columbians. BC hunting regulations place all sorts of restrictions on who can and can't hunt in British Columbia, I see no problem with placing restrictions on who can become a guide outfitter. In fact it wouldn't bother me at all if all foreigners were prohibited from hunting in British Columbia and I am hearing more and more from resident hunters with the same sentiments. It is only a matter of time.
I have concerns over the use of a publically held resource by one as a source of his income when he is allowed exclusive use to an area. Here in Sask a landowner is not legally able to charge a fee for hunting but individuals are granted exclusive outfitting rights to huge areas. Many of these individuals are not residents of the province let alone citizens.
In some areas where there is a need for a considerable investment in an outfitting business it may have some merit but when an outsider has exclusive outfitting use of tens of thousands of square miles and no investment in tents, cabins, horses, specialised vehicles etc but rather sets clients up in a motel then something is wrong.
I expect a change in governing party once the Olympics brouhaha is over with and this will probably be the N.D.P. At THAT point, it will be VERY simple to deal with this situation and lobbying BOTH B.C. Liberal and N.D.P. politicians NOW will greatly assist in cleaning up the entire Guide-Outfitter business.
Another aspect of this is to investigate Martin's status relevant to Canadian citizenship and lobby to have him declared "persona non grata"in Canada and then he would have to return to the U.S.A. This would also warn other GOs that we WILL NOT tolerate this type of bullschitt and WILL take action against them.
I will be phoning the Wildlife Branch HQ in Victoria this coming week and also may do an article on this situation for the "Vancouver Sun" and REALLY rouse the public....guys like Martin are the PAST and we don't need scum like him in Canada, period.
Politicians WILL respond to public pressure on environmental issues right now as it is THE "hot topic" and so a concerted effort by B.C. citizens WILL result in protecting OUR wildlife, fisheries and wilderness, from foreign exploitation or domestic poachers who are also scumbags.
Mr.1akhunter;
I would like to say thank you for your post and the thoughts you shared. I appreciated it very much.
Obviously, like most of us here, I find the actions of the individuals involved reprehensible. As you noted, it gives all hunters all a bad name at a time we can ill afford it.
I will apologize to all for repeating this, but as I have written before, I have friends who are former guides, acquaintances who are still guide-outfitters and friends who are passionately working to put an end to all non-resident hunting. In both camps there are folks who have valid points and of course both sides have extremists as well.
The Annual Allowable Harvest is the split of big game allowed to be killed by residents and non-residents, who according to provincial law must be guided. In the not too recent past, I was directly involved in some very confrontational AAH meetings where both sides were present in force and expressed their views in that way. I say this only to clarify that I have a working knowledge of some of the mechanics of wildlife management.
As others have mentioned, we have been promised changes in some of the wildlife laws, so I am cautiously hopeful that some meaningful changes in the fine structure will be forthcoming. Larger fines may prevent some of these individuals from, as you apptly put it, �defecating in their own backyard�.
While this particular fellow seems to be originally from elsewhere, in this case the US, I can�t see that as anything other than a peripheral issue. There have been abundant instances of home grown abusers, some mentioned in this thread.
The root of the issue as I see it, is that unfortunately we as hunters, consumptive users, harvesters or what ever we go by today, have not been able to persuade our current or previous governments (different political parties BTW) to give much more than token notice to wildlife management overall. Penalties that suit the infractions, including larger fines is only a portion of what I believe needs to be addressed.
I�ll end by noting that my position isn�t a popular one, others will disagree with me and of course they have every right to do so.
Anyway, I wanted to say I appreciated your post.
Regards,
Dwayne
Dwayne
please show me an example of fines stopping a thief, poacher, whatever... When wildlife is regarded more highly than human life, and fines prove it, What good have we really done?
Poachers believe the fines are for someone else as they will never get caught...
I know little about Canada politics, but I think there is one thing bankable in US-Canada relations. If Canada were to be so ill-advised as to stop US hunters from hunting Canada the retaliation would be swift and sure.
Take a walk through a Safari Club Int'l bourse and look for famous and recognizeable folks. There will be a bunch of them. Too many too willing to make selfish decisions to believe it impossible... But I think it extremely unlikely the move will get anywhere.
art
The opinions of a foreigner on anything in B.C. are NOT relevant to OUR decisions, period. This is a B.C. issue and it must and WILL be dealt with by those of us who OWN this Province and all that it contains.
Then why on earth would you post about it on a US-owned and operated forum? If no one but British Columbians have anything to say about it, and everyone else's opinion is irrelevant -- kindly restrain yourself to fulminating about it
in British Columbia.You do realize, of course, that the original inhabitants and owners of western Canada feel exactly the same way about you European latecomers and your use of their resources...
DN
If non resident hunting is banned in BC, it will be most likely be the work of the general population, not the resident hunters.
I could see some unscrupulous outfitter and client making the news for something bad...(probably to do with grizzlies or some other fashionable animal)
And the public saying "Why do we allow these foreigners to run these outfits and sell our animals to other foreigners and then they act disrespectfully and break our laws"
And the politicians getting on the bandwagon and expressing thier outrage...
And that will be that....
That is EXACTLY what IS happening now and it WILL grow, no question, as there is NO real value to the general B.C. public to allow ANY non-res. hunting/fishing here.
All it will take is an article or two, in the major newspapers and a TV news special, VERY easy to arrange and the campaign to make these changes will begin among the general public; link this to "softwood" in B.C. and manage the media well and it will happen VERY quickly....it will, anyway, as B.C. is changing and foreign hunting is ALREADY very unpopular here.
I have not yet made my final decision concerning this, however, arrogance by ill-informed and obviously self-interested foreigners certainly will influence how I, and other B.C.ers make our individual decisions concerning this and all other B.C.-Canadian resource issues, including OIL.
My comments here have been in response to the original post and this is the CANADIAN section of the Campfire; if, this is not acceptable to Americans here, well, they can always request that RickBin close this section of his site or ban me or any other Canadian, as is his right.
It's ironic how some Yanks fulminate about "freedom", such as the freedom of speech, yet, are among the very first to attempt to abrogate this when others dare to presume that they have the right to opinions about THEIR OWN country, how very typical.
The slur about ...original inhabitants...of B.C. is hilarious, coming from a citizen of the nation that SLAUGHTERED the original inhabitants of THEIR country, as we Canadians have NEVER done. So, again, typical arrogance and erroneous historical allusion, a Campfire constant among the illiterates who suffer from the delusion that they actually know anything beyond how to make ignorant and irrelevant comments.
...retaliation..., by the SCI????? Oh, REALLY, will the Bushites retaliate against B.C. making it's own decisions about who may/may not hunt/fish here? I seriously DOUBT IT as there is this little issue, called "energy security" and NO Bushite is going to stress Canadian-American relations any further over something like hunting by a tiny minority of wealthy Yanks in B.C. The very idea is ridiculous, but, hey, have at 'er, the SCI will be run out of B.C. in mere weeks.
Again, this was not intended as a Canadian-American issue, but, as usual, certain posters just have to make it one. This attitude reflects a belief that they have some "right" to be involved in B.C. resource decisions and to hunt/fish or "own" GO concessions here, if they wish. Funny, it seems to me that this is EXACTLY the sort of attitude that Bryan Martin has and acts upon and it is definitely GOING to influence me and other B.C. citizens on our lobbying to change the present situation....NOT to the benefit of foreign hunters/anglers.
Sad, really, but we CANNOT allow scum like Martin to continue taking advantage of Canadian generosity and those who defend his type of behaviour or advocate foreign influence over/control of B.C. resources will have only themselves to blame if the public here decides that non-res. use of our resources is banned. Food for thought, it seems to me.
Some good points there Kute but lets not forget the USA is our largest trade partner and when we export 90% of what comes out of the ground exception being coal and 90 % above ground we need not bite the hand that feeds. If Ted Nugent wants to bow hunt in northern BC he probably will and the laws will be adjusted to accomodate him rather than you. Hate to say that but business is business.
Well, WE have been winning environmental battles here since the 1970s and have backed down a number of huge foreign corporations in the process.
I do not give a ratsazz about placating the U.S.A., although I seriously DOUBT that this would ever become an issue affecting trade between Canada and ANY other country; it simply is not important enough among international trade issues.
As you say, ...business is business...and most foreign business people DO NOT WANT to cause a public outcry in Canada. I just don't see ANY nation's government getting too chuffed over B.C's hunting regulations, but, this is not really my current concern.
We need to approach this a single issue at a time and the first goal must be to eliminate foreign involvement in any form in B.C.s GO industry. THEN, we need to analyze the situation to determine WHETHER foreign hunting/angling IS beneficial to B.C. and go from there. However, I think that Gatehouse is right, it will very probably be banned soon, anyway.
I believe the foreign ownership of guiding and outfitting business can be traced back to the free trade agreement. Is there not some clause about equal business opportunities????
I know little about Canada politics, but I think there is one thing bankable in US-Canada relations. If Canada were to be so ill-advised as to stop US hunters from hunting Canada the retaliation would be swift and sure.
Take a walk through a Safari Club Int'l bourse and look for famous and recognizeable folks. art
Famous and recognizeable folks are going to deliver swift and sure retaliation. Thats its boys, give it up, we are done for. I know, we can just roll-over stop hunting and let the foreigners have 100% access to our wildlife. Because if we don't the retaliation will be something awful to be hold. All you BC residents quivering in your boots now. Yankees think they own the world, they can't help it, its their upbringing.
I've only hunted in your beautiful country one time - I wish it could be often - and I understand your passion about your wildlife and the encroachment of same that you perceive by "outsiders" but I'm not sure your eliminating them by law (if you can) is the answer. A native B.C'er does the same damage. I would hate to see law-abiding sports persons from anywhere denied hunting or fishing access to any place in the world provided it's by sound management principles and quotas.
Nor did I note any US'ers here being arrogant or expressing a "right" to hunt Canada or B.C. Whether any here believe it or not we are fast passing out of "the right to hunt era" and into "the privilege to hunt" era regardless of who you are or where you are, native or not. Laws granting the right not withstanding. Populations are increasing while game and habitat is decreasing. It's a simple fact and if you're granted lifetime free access hunting (Native Americans here in the States on the reservations) it doesn't matter if the game isn't there.
I decry this Mr. Martin and any when and if they break game laws or any civil laws for that matter. Perhaps the answer must be in harsher penalties; ie, prison time on a one-strike-and-you're-out-basis, confiscation of all OG equipment, etc.
I don't think exclusionary laws would be beneficial in the long run but I could be wrong. If you carry that concept out to the fullest extent, the next thing would be to deny Albertans hunting privileges in BC and vica versa, or Wyoming Cowboys in CO. It doesn't sound like the best solution for the most folks.
But, again, to finish this thought that assumes no wasting of resources, breaking of any laws, or generally being a bad citizen by any guest hunting or operating in your counry.
gdv
I don't know if free trade is involved but I do know that a few German GO have taken out small-business loans at low interest sponsored by the government to build big log homes which they live in only during hunting season with their guests. When drilling activity began in those areas they promptly stuck out their hands for assistance since their businesses began failing which was a crock-since it was already failing prior to the drilling activity. They also attacked Oil companies (law suites)which were employing a lot of BC folk and did shutdown some projects. Black mail basically was used. Their failing enterprise began when airfares shot up due to fuel prices etc, thus fewer Europeans came to hunt. Tax payers basically paid for the businesses.
Dwayne,
appreciate the kind comments about my post.
I certainly "get" the ire associated with the exploitation of a resource.
We are facing similar issues here in AK, our Dall sheep opportunities have been some of the most accessible of anywhere in North America. But it seems that may soon come to a crashing halt if reasonable limitations are not imposed.
Therein lies the rub, what's reasonable?
for me reason leans more to the side of residential preference, makes sense since I am a resident.
for others they see our sheep population probably much like any other be it Rocky Mountain or desert sheep and probably feel management as done in those populations is good enough for us.
I always encourage folks to hunt here, I love Alaska and wasn't born here, but I loved it enough to move here, for folks to get that, the easiest way to see what I love about the place is for them to spend some time in the bush, to climb a mountain and not see any sign of civilization.
for those of us that those experiences make your heart sing, I'm not sure it really matters where your body was born at, but more of where your heart and head is at.
I also hate to see hunting in places you were not fortunate enough to be born in turned into a rich man's sport, but it seems that is exactly what is happening whether I desire it or not.
I wish Canadians the best of luck in managing their wildlife and wild places and hope she shares the same well wishes in our endeavors to do so here.
My personal viewpoint is that big game is too precious to be treated as a commodity and should be treated as a treasure.
It's where I turn from a capitalist into more of a socialist.
I'd like to see our lands and resources managed for the benefit of our residents primarily. But I hate to see the experience taken away from anyone not fortunate enough to live here, or make it so exclusive that only the rich need apply.
I hope as residents our game populations will be managed first and foremost for residents. And I'd like to see a lottery system with point preferential for non residents. In a perfect world for me, the non resident, middle class guy would have just as good of a chance to draw a tag as the rich guy.
some of my fondest memories of guiding were spending time with true outdoorsmen that sucked up the whole experience like a kid draining the last drops of a milkshake, they loved it all, the weather, the scenery, the openeness and the GAME.
Many of them came from middle class backgrounds and had scrimped and saved to afford this opportunity to visit a still wilderness experience.
I hope guys like that will always have an opportunity, they end up being advocates for something that is so important to so many of us.
there are both ends of the spectrum, folks that want to deny others opportunities cause "I got here first" and folks that don't care what happens "as long as they get theirs, whether it be game or money in the pursuit of game"
I hope here in AK we find some middle ground.
I hope in Canada you find yourself where the majority of Canadians want to be on the issue. (though the majority is not always correct ime)
good luck Canada, I've passed thru your countryside though never hunted it, what you have is precious, I hope you guard it and protect it, but I hope you find a place in your heart to share it with others, whether they were lucky enough to be born there or not.
I'm actually surprised this guy Martin is not being shipped out. From what I have seen on the news over the years there have been people convicted of a crime in Canada or in the U.S. that have been promptly sent backing back to there country. (Read that to mean the U.S.) Unless it is a heinous crime and the Canadian gov. thinks we would do something to the criminal they do not approve of. Also, people have been denied entree to Canada for having a misdemeanor violation.
As for having everything owned by by residents; it would be nice in a way. I have often had the same attitude, but quell it with what is fair. Having operations owned by residents might be a good thing. We could be like Mexico in that regard. Then the company my Mom works for wouldn't be Canadian owned. It is. (She thinks highly of them too.) Then we wouldn't have Canadian mining companies trying to rip open the ground here for us to deal with long after they have gone.
As far as residents go my mother-in-law has a cousin living in Sask. and a friends sister is living in Alberta. They Married Canadians. Several other people I have known married Canadian girls including my Uncle 50 years ago and we had a Canadian on our local Search and Rescue team. Another good guy. Should they all go back?
Mr. Sitka deer;
Thank you for the response and giving me some food for thought.
To answer your first question, I can not name an instance that I am aware of in which a fine worked as a preventative for a thief. As a hypothesis on my part then, if the fines at least make the criminal act less profitable it may be less attractive to new recruits?
Perhaps it is that I feel frustrated if nothing is done to address it, but on balance you may well be correct and it may not have the desired effect. A preventative fine that stops an honest person from speeding may well have no correlation to what might induce a thief to stop stealing.
I unfortunately agree with your 2nd comment on where we have degenerated to as a society if and when we place a higher value on animals than humans. That could well be a separate topic for discussion, albeit a depressing one.
I am not all certain what direction the whole resident and non-resident hunting issue will take, but I will hope for and work toward a reasonable compromise.
I do appreciate your thoughts and the way they were conveyed. Thanks again.
Regards,
Dwayne
Mr. 1akhunter;
Thank you for further clarifying your position.
I found myself agreeing with much of what you posted. From what you wrote, we face similar hurdles with regard to managing our wild resources wisely and have a common love for wild spaces.
It would seem logical to me that if we as hunters could find common ground and work together we could accomplish more than if we fragment.
Again, I appreciated your 2nd post. Thanks.
Regards,
Dwayne
Hello all,
the main problem is even convicted with wildlife offence he can still guide.. and of course still being an Outfitter.
we can dream about a better world and change the laws ...
the provinces of Manitoba, New Brunswick and Newfoundland-Labarador (are the only ones from my datas and what i know) wont allow you to act as guide if you re convicted of any wildlife offences but what about other territories or provinces ?
In Quebec you can still act as a guide even without hunting license ... but we re not alone for sure ...
The most important aspect of this situation seems to be missed in most posts here; that is that Bryan Martin and others of his type COULD NOT break B.C. wildlife laws IF they were not able to obtain the GO concession here. So, we ban all non-B.C. born persons from holding GO concessions and certain improvements in the entire situation will quickly happen.
The first is that scum like him will NEVER be able to hunt or guide here again and that IS going to happen, no matter what it takes to bring it about. I just had a friend of mine and his buddy, an experienced guide here, come by my house to pick up a mountain tent and they both agree on this issue.
Then, the highly inflated cost of buying a B.C. GO concession will be reduced to a sum that ordinary B.C. citizens can afford and thus our own people can afford to buy a GO concession when they want to. I have another buddy who would like to buy a concession and this would enable him to do so.
Another benefit of such a policy is that BC outfitters will BE B.C. people and are much more likely to be in it for the long haul and not plunder the resource base. This will benefit EVERYONE concerned and if foreign GOs don't like it, too bloody bad, they don't belong here, anyway.
It's all good where B.C. citizens are concerned and this is what I am interested in as whatever others do in THEIR countries is really not my affair. I do not believe in interfering in other people's internal affairs and suggest that non-B.C'ers here do likewise.
It AIN'T about Canada-USA, this is an internal B.C. affair and that is all it is.
Kute,
wish you can do what you want but not pretty sure all the people involved in the guiding industry in BC will follow you ...
especially GOABC ???!!!
they re some guides that have concessions and are BC born but i wont go hunt with them so ... where you are born dont give you all the keys to do what you want at least...
Kute may you add when you say ..."... we ban ..." ... is we will ban as for now this is not illegal to be a GO without being BC born ...!! just to be sure to understand.
sorry my english is not that good sometimes.
At present, a person must be a "B.C. resident" to hold the GO's licence and this means that ANY person who qualifies for "landed immigrant" status here CAN then obtain said licence after a period of residence. Bryan Martin, for example, lists an AMERICAN address as his home on his website and uses Dawson Deveny, one of a family of American immigrants to hold the GO licence.
This is commonplace here and most of the best concessions ARE American-owned with Canadian "frontmen" and a number of the other good concessions are owned by Germans using the same loophole in the law. The B.C. Wildlfe Federation opposes this and wants ALL GOS to BE Canadians and ALL concessions to expire permanently at the end of the current holder's tenure, as when one retires or dies.
I DO have a bit of difficulty with your second sentence, are you opposed to hunting here in B.C. with a GO born here for some reason? It seems odd to me, but, I may be misunderstanding your point.
In any case, whatever the GOABC wants/does not want means jackschitt to me, they are not the owners of B.C. and although many of them seem to think they are, the vast majority of B.C. people would not agree. Fugem, they are a "thorn in the side"of resident B.C. hunters and it is time they got a comeuppance.
We residents WILL win on this issue, wait and see.
Kute,
i said i wish you ll won what you want but not sure if even the residents want that. and i support your point. but as you stated too BCers GO are mostly US and German ops ...
you dont care about GOABC but they re mostly ruling GO ops.
and i wrote that being born in BC will not give the best as everyone known this is not the born that make a good one or not : but you can make your rules. some BCers born GO have ben convicted in the past for wildlife offences and they re still in the industry.
and i wish too that people of BC will say what they want exactly, but are they aware of GOs industry ?...
My comments here have been in response to the original post and this is the CANADIAN section of the Campfire; if, this is not acceptable to Americans here, well, they can always request that RickBin close this section of his site or ban me or any other Canadian, as is his right.
It's ironic how some Yanks fulminate about "freedom", such as the freedom of speech, yet, are among the very first to attempt to abrogate this when others dare to presume that they have the right to opinions about THEIR OWN country, how very typical.
The slur about ...original inhabitants...of B.C. is hilarious, coming from a citizen of the nation that SLAUGHTERED the original inhabitants of THEIR country, as we Canadians have NEVER done. So, again, typical arrogance and erroneous historical allusion, a Campfire constant among the illiterates who suffer from the delusion that they actually know anything beyond how to make ignorant and irrelevant comments.
Dude...I've read your posts expressing your feelings about Indians, or First Nations people, so don't go trying to play holier than thou on me. And you had your share of atrocities as well. And there are still millions of American Indians and Alaska Natives in this country -- I'm still here, after all...
You can also stop whining about somone wanting to abrogate your freedom of speech -- no one has said you shouldn't or can't talk about whatever you want to. Challenging your evidence, assumptions, logic or rationale is by no means the same as telling you to shut up. Which no one has.
Bear in mind, that I don't care how your leaders run your province or your country, and I have no interest in or intention of going hunting in British Columbia. So I got no dog in this fight at all.
I just find you kind of amusing, and sometimes can't overcome the impulse to respond. Which I will admit is really really stupid on my part...
.
Good luck with your quest, and enjoy your revisionist view of your history. Hopefully it won't inform your future...
DN
Well, for someone who doesn't care, you sure have a lot of BS to spew on this issue, which is really none of your business, eh?
WHERE and WHEN were these ...atrocities...you claim happened here in Canada concerning aboriginal peoples? If, my historical references are...revisionist..., then why not be specific with your blatant lies, XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX, eh, DUDE.
...I will admit is really, really stupid on my part..., wellll, YOU said it, about the only valid comment in your rant!
Edited by RickBin to remove racism.
Darryl
A few minutes on Google shows an assortment of atrocities... bias-dependant perhaps...
"One of the least understood aspects of the Duck Lake fight is why one of Chief Beardy�s Headmen (Assiyiwin) was shot during the purported parley preceding the fight. How did an old, half-blind, unarmed Headman of the Band become involved in the fracas?"
"Violence peaked on the morning of June 1, 1873, when traders and some wolf hunters from Fort Benton scattered an Assiniboine camp of 50 lodges, killing at least 20 men, women, and children beside what is now called Battle Creek, a tributary of the Missouri River in southwestern Saskatchewan."
"...the heart-wrenching tale of how thousands of First Nations children were "legally" seized from their parents by provincial governments during the 1950s, 60s and 70s, and placed with white adoptive parents in homes around the world. Placement agencies in the United Sates often received fees from the adoptive parents in the range of 15 to 20 thousand dollars per child."
"The major losers in the coming of the Loyalists were arguably the aboriginal peoples. In exchange for treaty rights, support and reserves set aside for their "use and benefit," they were stripped of much of their aboriginal rights through a series of treaties negotiated by the British Crown and their representatives. Adding to the difficulty was the fact that boundaries were often vague at best. Further, often there were serious language problems and misunderstandings. Both sides meant different things. Some translators were merely weak; others were dishonest. The only constant was that the aboriginals lost each and every time. The "Haldimand Grant" of three million acres along the Grand River was surrendered for trade goods valued at just slightly more than 1100 pounds."
Getting off topic but what the hell it's getting interesting again with some of the bucks locking horns here.
Just figured I'd throw in this bit of trivia. Who was the first recorded peoples that Biological warfare was used on?
The British used bits of Smallpox infested blankets cut up by immune soldiers and placed them in small tin boxes. The boxes were then placed near Native villages, and by spring time- guess what? Mass Extermination. At least the Americans went face to face when they fought the native Indians.
Some of lowest cowardly acts performed, that wasn't written into Canadian history books. I really was ashamed after reading these articles.
""Violence peaked on the morning of June 1, 1873, when traders and some wolf hunters from Fort Benton scattered an Assiniboine camp of 50 lodges, killing at least 20 men, women, and children beside what is now called Battle Creek, a tributary of the Missouri River in southwestern Saskatchewan."
The wolfers who committed the Cypress Hills Massacre were Americans. Fort Benton is in Montana.
"One of the least understood aspects of the Duck Lake fight is why one of Chief Beardy�s Headmen (Assiyiwin) was shot during the purported parley preceding the fight. How did an old, half-blind, unarmed Headman of the Band become involved in the fracas?"
"Gentleman" Joe McKay was an English Metis. His claim backed by other observers was that the indian he shot , Assiyiwin, had been struggling with him over one of his guns.
""...the heart-wrenching tale of how thousands of First Nations children were "legally" seized from their parents by provincial governments during the 1950s, 60s and 70s, and placed with white adoptive parents in homes around the world. Placement agencies in the United Sates often received fees from the adoptive parents in the range of 15 to 20 thousand dollars per child."
There may well have been some abuses in the adoption program but in many cases there were several good reasons to remove the children from abussive and/or neglective home situations. Of course it would be great if all children were born and raised in loving homes which provided for their needs but it aint always happening .
A case in point ;
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20080130.wsaskgirl0130/BNStory/National/home"...It was just after midnight on the Yellow Quill reserve when Christopher Pauchay hoisted his two small children in his arms and staggered into a howling white winter storm.
The winds sent temperatures careening toward �50 degrees that night, but Mr. Pauchay didn't even put on a jacket. His 15-month-old daughter, Santana, and his three-year-old daughter, Kaydence, wore only diapers and T-shirts, so he swaddled one in his own winter coat and wrapped the other in a thin blanket. They were heading for his sister's house, 400 metres away across barren dunes of drifting snow.
But Mr. Pauchay, 24, had been drinking heavily Monday night, his elder sister, Bernita Pauchay, said Wednesday. His wife Tracey, 21, had stormed out after a fight earlier that evening, and Mr. Pauchay was left home alone with the children. The day before he had taken a ride to the local liquor store, where he bought a case of beer and two bottles of whisky.
"My brother was so intoxicated," Bernita, 35, said. "I don't know how big the bottles were, but when he drank whisky he would get real loaded...."
Small pox blankets :
The British officer said to have used small pox blankets was Lord Jeffrey1 Amherst was commanding general of British forces in North America during the final battles of the so-called French & Indian war (1754-1763) The references to use of the blankets was in regards to a siege of Fort Pitt (Pittsburgh) by Chief Pontiac's forces during the summer of 1763.
Pittsburgh, 1763 puts this action in British North America not Canada and at a time when the area was BNA was used to describe all of British possessions including what became America.
I can't see why Canada should be blamed for this.
The treaties signed during those times are still the ones used by the natives today- so yes it is relevant to Canadians and the Dominion of Canada formerly called.
I don't know about the story posted by Sitka about Battle river but I know Duck lake is in Saskatchewan because I drove through it many years ago unless there is another Duck Lake in the USA.
Thanks for the history update and have a good day Murf.
Murf
Dangers of Google... and lack of knowledge of real history... sorry for any confusion from my end.
art
While this is little of topic but since we seem to have gone off topic anyway I thought I would post. It does include natives and guide outfitters and doesn't bode well for the guide-oufitter business in British Columbia.
http://www.canada.com/victoriatimescolonist/news/story.html?id=1bd774b4-db3c-4f86-99dd-efb716708917
Sorry if off topic again but further to the bits on Duck Lake
There are a good many places called Duck Lake, I know of several one beiong a beautiful lake in Montana.
The one in question is from Sask. near Batoche. There was a battle or perhaps more accurately a skirmish there between North West Mounted Police and the followers of Louis Riel. The Duck Lake fight is considered the first action in what is known as the Riel Rebellion or North West Rebellion
A good book on the subject is "These are the Plains" written by Alvina Hamilton. She was the daughter of a gentleman named Bonneau who came from Quebec. Her brother Pascal established a large ranch in southern Sask. It was Pascal who took Riel's body and hid it under a church floor following the hanging and later delivered it to Riel's family for burial. Riel's mother stayed with the Bonneau's during the trial and later execution.
Because of their french background they knew a good many of the influential metis but being a railway contractor the family also had connection to the gov't side. If I recall correctly, Mrs. Hamilton , has a part in her book about a meeting between Gabriel Dumont , the metis "general" and Joe McKay that took place years later. In the encounter Dumont tells McKay that he was the one who fired the shot that left Dumont with a prominent scar on his forehead.
Another great part from her book is when she tells of being awakened by people talking in her house shortly before Riel was executed in Regina. She says the visitor was a police Sargent who was explaining to her father that the "plan" had been leaked and was called off. Later her father informed her the plan had been to let Riel escape once again to the US. It seems old John A. foresaw the troubles the hanging of Riel by the gov't would cause with the people of Quebec and had police arrange to have metis from the Willow Bunch area of southern Sask cache relays horses between Regina and the US border. The southern metis had not joined the rebellion as they saw the group at Batoche as trouble makers and several of the Willow Bunch and Wood Mountain area metis actually worked as scouts for the gov't side.
I mention the bits about the Bonneau family to show they had inside knowledge of the situation from both sides and to illustrate that contemporary versions of the uprising are one sided, with the gov't side being politically incorrect in todays terms. It has gotten so one sided that a few years ago one caller to a radio talk show claimed she was the great grand daughter of Dumont and was giving her version of how badly her people were treated until the guest on the program reminded her that Dumont never had any kids !!!!
Does anyone happen to know if this Brian Martin used to sell Real Estate around the Bozeman, MT area?
I believe it states that he did, right on his outfitter site.
RO
Thanks, Otter
I think it was Brian that used to come into the gun dept where I worked once in a while. He said he was buying an outfitting business in BC, and I wondered how it was possible for a non resident to go toCanada and do that.
Royce
Would like to hear Bryans side of this incident before we lynch him here but highly doubt that would happen.
From the Canadian side, one of the smartest things said. "Making a false statement to a conservation officer" is not the same as poaching. I don't condone breaking the law in any way, shape or form but would like to hear Bryan's side of it before he's castrated, shot, folded, spindled, and mutilated by my friends north of the border.
Would like to hear Bryans side of this incident before we lynch him here but highly doubt that would happen.
From the Canadian side, one of the smartest things said. "Making a false statement to a conservation officer" is not the same as poaching. I don't condone breaking the law in any way, shape or form but would like to hear Bryan's side of it before he's castrated, shot, folded, spindled, and mutilated by my friends north of the border.
"DWS" (darn well said there Mac!)
Dober
As far as I'm concerned kick his azz out..No need for his side.If he's lying to the CO's he'll lie to everyone else..
No need for his side.If he's lying to the CO's he'll lie to everyone else..
And you know this because...?
Brad take off the blinders....It's in the first post..
7, Bryan is a friend of mine. He's one of the kindest, good-spirited people it's been my good fortune to know. I think I'm a pretty damn good judge of character and since you don't know Bryan from Adam I think it's only fair to point out you, and all those ready to chain him to a tree and torch him, don't know a damn thing about any specifics.
I'm not saying he DID or DIDN'T do anything wrong... just saying before everyone jumps to the kind of conclusions everyone here is making I'd prefer to know the facts... especially since I'd sooner share a campfire with Bryan over most people I've ever met anywhere.
My .02
You come to my Country, Province ect and get charged not ONCE but TWICE on wildlife offense's you get a very short rope in my book.He's your friend and your right don't know him from Adam .I tend to believe a judge wildlife officer and the crown over Martin...Sorry but it's my backyard and thats how I feel about it.
Yep, forget having the facts... get a rope.
Ever occur to you that maybe the local Outfitters are/were jealous of Bryan's success and were gunning for him as a foreigner? There are a LOT of pressures from clients that come with outfitting... it's not an easy row to hoe and I'm not willing to hang someone before I know the facts. Even then, if wrong, the law tends to deal out punishment appropriate to "the crime." In this case I suspect there wasn't much to the charges. "Lying" ain't much of a "crime."
And we all know people, bureaucrats, and government officials aren't petty and vindictive, right?
Being "convicted" of something nebulous and unspecified isn't exactly convincing proof to me, just like getting a speeding ticket for going 45 in a 35 zone doesn't make someone a father-raper worthy of the Cat O' Ninetails...
It's your Province and you take pride in it... were I in your shoes I'd feel the same... lets just try and stick with measured sanity and the facts.
I'm not saying he DID or DIDN'T do anything wrong... just saying before everyone jumps to the kind of conclusions everyone here is making I'd prefer to know the facts..
He had his day in court,and the evidence resulted in a conviction.The fact that this is not his first conviction leads me to believe that he is not the kind of person that should be allowed to outfit.
And they weren't gunning for him as a foreigner and his BC competitors weren't jealous, right?
He gets a short rope with me on past performances..Imagine if I was to pull his bullshitt not once but twice in Montana say were you hunt..
He's proven to be a fibber and a thief of our wildlife..I stand firm get out Martin...There's about 10 thousand other resident hunters in this province who agree with me..
Again, "making a false statement to a conservation official" is definitely a hanging offense, right? Worthy of a two year jail sentence according to some here...
He gets a short rope with me on past performances..Imagine if I was to pull his bullshitt not once but twice in Montana say were you hunt..
He's proven to be a fibber and a thief of our wildlife..I stand firm get out Martin...There's about 10 thousand other resident hunters in this province who agree with me..
Botom line, you know NOTHING of the details.
Again, "making a false statement to a conservation official" is definitely a hanging offense, right? Worthy of a two year jail sentence according to some here...
When your a vistor in another country making scratch on crown wildlife it dam well should be...
When your a vistor in another country making scratch on crown wildlife it dam well should be...
LOL, who the [bleep] do you think he bought the concession from? A Frenchman? Did he employ Canadians, buy Canadian goods, Pay Canadian taxes and generally lend his .02 to the Cannuckian Government?
I suspect even you can figure that out...
Brad your friends the [bleep] thief in my country...So take your smart azz [bleep] and cool it..Actually take that [bleep] martin with you too..
I getting too wound up on this so [bleep] it........
Yupper, common sense can get a fella all worked up
BTW, one of my good friends here is a Cannuck, a fourteen year retired veteran of the NHL... should I ship him back over the border because he once got a speeding ticket in the USA and "stole" from all us dumb Americans by being an overpaid athlete?
Right...
Apples to oranges....
We the folks of British Columbia take wildlife offences very seriously..It's unacceptable for a resident to do that ..Most of us are brought up working in the forest hunting and have a general respect for all outdoors..
I make my living from the land around me.I respect it and am Thankful everyday for it.Thats why I can never accept this under and circumstance period.
BTW Martins lucky to have a friend like you Brad..
7, like I said, were I in your position I'd have my hair up as well... it's only natural and I totally understand that. All I'm saying is there are really not facts offered here, just a lot of innuendo and character assassination. The only "fact" as the judge saw it was he misrepresented a fact or two to a wildlife officer. Could be his client got gung-ho and did something stupid and he was trying to protect him. Dunno. Just trying to offer a little perspective. Just because you get a slap on the wrist in court doesn't make you a criminal. Been there done that...
Hey maybe he was setup ? someone could of dropped those critters in his camp
Or during the trial the question of, "Have you ever had a black man in your hunting camp rears it's ugly head"....
And they weren't gunning for him as a foreigner and his BC competitors weren't jealous, right?
Could be his client got gung-ho and did something stupid and he was trying to protect him.
He was caught breaking the law and was convicted,regardless of why he broke the law.
Bryan is a very good friend of mine. When he was in Montana he hunted with me, lived in my home, played with my kids, and ate meals with my family � he�s an A+ person in all respects, especially honesty, trust-worthiness, and ethics. He�s as kind and hard-working of a person as you will ever meet.
It�s not uncommon that the press release is lacking considerable detail and has a slanted tone. The harsh words about him from many here anger me and they are completely uncalled for. I have no interest in arguing with a pack of clueless and uninformed idiots whose only outlet is their ability to post derogatory comments about somebody they know nothing about on the World Wide Web. Tough fingers behind that computer screen. Continue as you wish, but the fact will prove itself that NONE of you will be talking like this to Bryan�s face, or in front of any of his friends toe to toe. It won�t happen. Prove me wrong.
Everybody makes mistakes and bad decisions � every one of us. Bryan is not a poacher or a liar. To summarize the charge - he put false information on a government declaration form regarding animals one of his guides killed (who was not a BC resident) some of which, at the time he filled it out � Bryan was unaware of. The guide was told by Bryan that he would need to have another one of his guides present while he hunted as a legal requirement of non-resident hunting. In one case his guide did have a guide present but didn�t have his guide�s license physically on him. In the other two cases (same guide) the required �official guide� was in a camp several miles away. Later in the season, when filling out the paperwork with the guide, Bryan was faced with putting, �no guide present� or the guide�s name (who was in camp) on the paperwork. He has found that being a nice guy isn�t always the best choice. Here�s a quote from the detail he sent me:
Don't break any laws, period, as any of them can bite you in the butt. Also, giving a statement to a COS officer, even if just a technicality in the law was broken, is a sure way to get charged. They might be more lenient in their charges, but there will still be charges, as they have an oath to uphold the game laws, even if they may or may not agree with the laws or if they think you should or should not be charged.
Bryan sent me an email with all the circumstances of this issue and the previous charges with significant detail and with his permission to distribute it anywhere. I�m going to paste some of his exact wording in as it�s heinously complicated regarding his first citation. What I hope some of you garner from this is that there was nothing malicious, intentional, or even close to �poaching� that took place.
Kurt, several years ago, you and I talked about my other charge, from when I first purchased the area, in 1999. If you decide to put any of my comments on the website and anybody says anything about my past, the following paragraphs will explain everything that has ever happened, ever.
Our mutual friend, who does all my brochures and website, came up in 1999 to hunt goats with us. I took him into a remote area and we were both supposed to hunt together, on an exploratory goat hunt, as I didn't have many hunters that year. Our pilot, a licensed Canadian hunting guide, was also going to be our guide on this hunt. On the hike into the area, he crossed a beaver dam, slipped and fell into the water. He went back to the plane and then back to camp to get dried out and some warmer clothes. We waited for him the next morning, but he never showed up. Later, he told us that the camp, 18 miles away, that he flew back to, was weathered in and he couldn't get back to us. The hunter and I didn't know what had happened, as we didn't have a sat phone. After several days, he still didn't show up, so the hunter shot a goat, not far from where we were camped. He was a bow hunter, but couldn't get within range, so he borrowed my rifle. During this hunt, I saw the 2nd largest goat I've ever seen in my area, but because we were waiting on the guide, I didn't have a chance to take it either.
1999 was the first year that I owned the area and I had just applied and was accepted as a Landed Immigrant to Canada (I moved from the US), but I couldn't hold a guide license until 2000. The pilot was supposed to be our guide, but because of the weather, he couldn't make it back to us for 4 days. It just so happened that as the hunter and I were hiking up to recover his goat, that a guide from the neighboring area, was taking a short cut through our area, with his hunter. We talked and he saw that our guide was not with us. In fact, our guide/pilot flew over as we were talking, saw us, landed at the nearby lake and started up the trail to help with the goat. Our guide met the neighboring guide part way. Then, our guide, feeling bad for the very tired hunter, helped carry this hunter's pack back to the plane, then flew this guide and hunter, back to their base camp. My hunter and I had to pack his goat back alone and then wait until the next day to get picked up. Two years later, when this guide was no longer able to guide in this outfitter's area, because the outfitter leased the area to me instead, he turned the hunter and I into the game department, for hunting without a guide, because he was pissed at me for "taking his lease". Because I had let the hunter use my gun to shoot the goat and because I was the owner of this new business, I was charged with guiding without a license. We had a guide, he just wasn't physically present again.
The same time that the COS was talking to me about this issue, they had received a complaint that I had hunted as a resident in both Montana and BC, in 2000. When I showed them my non-resident hunting license and tags in MT, for 2000, plus proved that I met the residency requirements of being a resident for 7 months before hunting in BC, that charge was dropped. They then wanted to know how many days I was in and out of BC in 2001. According to their interpretation of the game laws, residency was a year to year situation. They based residency, also on physical presence in the province. Most residents likely didn't know that they were supposed to be physically present for 7 months of the proceeding 12 months, before doing any hunting as a resident. Since a month is basically 30 days, 7 times 30 is 210 days of physical presence was required. According to this law, even if you don't move or change your "residency", you might not be qualified to hunt as a resident. This is even if you owned or rented a home, paid taxes in BC, had everything registered in BC, didn't live anywhere else but BC and didn't claim any residency priviledges anywhere else, besides BC. So, if you were a truck driver and worked for more than 5 months outside of the providence or if you worked in a mine, say in Alberta, you might not have been qualified to hunt as a resident. But, if you couldn't hunt as a resident in BC and weren't qualified to hunt as a resident anywhere else, where does this put a guy? Pretty confusing. So, because I couldn't prove that I was in BC for 210 days in 2001, they charged me as not being qualified to hunt as a resident. I surely didn't keep track of where I was every day and could only prove less than 1/2 of a year of actually being physically present in BC.
They agreed that I was a resident in 2000, but that in 2001, I was not a resident, because I had been away from BC more that I was "allowed". So, then I wasn't a resident anywhere, as I didn't have any residency priviledges anywhere else either. There were only 3 reasons I wasn't in BC all the time in 2001 - seeing my family, wrapping up my old business in Montana and booking hunters by going to US trade shows in the winter. I surely wasn't trying to use the system and I surely couldn't have imagined that I wasn't a resident. I knew people who traveled with work far more than I did, who were still hunting as residents, but because they weren't foreigners, they weren't well known and no one complained, they went unnoticed. It was not a good or fair law.
So, in court, I was charged with 2 things - guiding without a license and hunting without being physically present for enough days in 2001 to be considered a resident. Even though I wasn't the "guide" for the hunter, I agreed to plea guilty to this charge, if they dropped the residency charge. They didn't, so I fought both of them. In court, the judge said that because I was both the owner and because I let the hunter use my rifle, that I aided in the hunt and acted as the guide, even though we had one hired for the hunt. It didn't matter about the plane being weathered in. We should have just waited, even if the guide had not made it back, and just not shot the goat.
With the residency charge, the Judge quickly ruled in my favor and said that I was definitely a resident. I met all the residency requirements of being a Landed Immigrant and that since I didn't have any residency in any other state or province and since I didn't live anywhere else, that I was definitely a resident of BC. Well, the Crown council and COS didn't like this, so they appealed the judges ruling. We had to go to Appeals and Supreme Court, where I wasn't able to testify. It was strictly a written argument, by both legal councils (attorneys). One judge ruled in my favor, regarding residency and 2 ruled against me. They said the law was a bit vague but the way they interpreted the law, was that one had to be physically present for 7 months/year, each and every year. I bet there are a lot of residents who don't know this!
When I went back to the original judge for sentencing, she was not happy that the courts had over ruled her decision, so even though I was found "guilty" of hunting without being a "resident" in the Appeals/Supreme Ct, this charge would not go on my record and I did not loose any hunting priviledges. I had a fine and lost the animals that I took that year, but nothing on my record. She was visibly upset about this Appeal decision and did not want me to face any penalties, but she was obligated to uphold the decision of the Appeals/Supreme Ct. With the illegal guiding charge, my friend lost his goat, but was not charged with anything else. I didn't loose any guiding priviledges, but had a fine to pay. This was the only thing the judge agreed that I had done. The residency violation - no way. So, I was just charged with guiding without holding a proper license.
Since then, the residency law has changed (maybe because of me), so that being a resident each year is much easier. It requires much less physical presence now -less than 1/2 of the time, of the old law. The way the law was originally written, made being a resident, for hunting priviledges, very difficult for anyone who traveled for work.
There�s way more detail but my point is.. mistakes were made � no doubt. But for those of you using words like scumbag, thief, liar, poacher -- think hard ask yourself if something like this couldn�t happen to any honest, decent and hardworking person. I suggest before making any further remarks about Bryan to contact the officer in BC to validate this information. I can only trust that the CO involved is capable of recognizing the type of person that Bryan Martin is.
I�ve never been on a guided hunt and if I ever do decide to do that I hope my guide or outfitter is 50% as qualified as Bryan. If he is, I know I�ll get my money�s worth.
Kutenay, 7 STW, and anybody else.. if you want to make derogatory statements about a good friend of mine, please show up on my doorstep and we can discuss it in person. Don�t respond by a message, email or phone, show up right on my doorstep. I�m easy to find, listed - with address.
Kurt Rued
Bozeman, Montana
Hmmmm...
"MACKENZIE � B.C. resident Bryan Martin and Alberta resident Mark Greenlee pleaded guilty to Wildlife Act offences in a Mackenzie courtroom last week.
Martin was charged with knowingly making a false statement to a conservation officer. Greenlee was charged with hunting big game while not a resident, knowingly making a false statement to a conservation officer and unlawful possession of wildlife.
Both men received fines and were ordered to pay penalties totalling $8,750. Greenlee was ordered to pay $3,750 and Martin was ordered to pay $5,000. The Habitat Conservation Trust Fund will receive $8,500 of the penalties paid.
In addition to the monetary penalties, Greenlee has been ordered not to hunt in B.C. for a period of two years and to forfeit the seized wildlife (a grizzly bear, mountain goat and a caribou)."
Several things come to mind for me; He was not found guilty... he pled guilty. He said he did what he was accused of... Sounds like he told his side right there.
His partner in crime pled to the same charge and two more, yet only paid 75% of the fine charged Martin. Either his rap sheet or his crime was significantly different...
A $3,750 fine involving the killing of three critters?!?!? And that shows BC is serious about wildlife crime? I have seen AK collect far more for far less... I am not in favor of drawing and quartering wildlife offenders and cringe at pedophiles and murders getting off lighter than a guy poaching a moose to feed his family, but $3,750 is chump change in this type case, IMO.
art
Kurt-well said there my friend. I'm in the camp of I'd hunt with Bryan any day.
Dober
Sitka Deer.. the problem you have is that you are trying to pull detail out of a press release.
A couple years ago, my father in law was cited for illegally killing a bison during Montana's first bison hunt in many years. It made the cover of every Montana newspaper for a number of reasons.. one of which he was a retired director of the MT FWP.
I remember the press release that came out. There were over a dozen errors (false details and mistakes) in the short coverage. I suppose it succeeded in the intent of getting attention though.
I was with him when he shot that bison - as were 4 others, including a retired FWP regional director and FWP hunter saftey coordinator. I think over 200 years hunting experience between the group of us.
The charge was ludicrous. He hired an attorney, wehtn to trial and was promptly found not guilty - at the expense of around $5 grand, time, and public humiliation.. all to fight a $135 charge, a confiscated animal, and mostly his reputation. He got the animal back and it's one of the largest B&C bison ever taken in Montana.
Bottom line is don't believe what you read in a press release like this... there's usually MUCH more to the story. Also.. (7 STW) don't believe that every CO is bright, honest and out to serve justice like the right hand of God himself.
Having personally been down this road - I can only hope that some of you can wake up and experience reality, and that your errors in life don't unfairly tarnish your reputations and careers.
Greenhorn
Point taken. On a bison side note, when my wife got her Delta bison here the previous 6 were the wrong sex... Three were bulls and three were cows, yet all were confiscated and major uglies happened.
The hunt concentrated on killing very young bison because of the herd dynamic they developed to maximize numbers, not quality. Sexing baby bison at distance in a herd is not easy and lots of folks now regret ever drawing the toughest tag to draw in AK...
Overzealous comes to mind...
art
I'd think it's only fair you come to my doorstep...
Bryan made some bad decisions obviously but he does not need to be tarnished here.I know some Canadian born BC residents that makes his incident look like childs play and they do it year in and year out.I dont know Bryan personally but from what i have read and heard about the guy would have no problem hunting with him.We all make errors , learn from them and move on .
Greenhorn, good post. Brings out a lot of the details.
Its funny, I live in Mackenzie, but had not heard about this at all.
I see a few things there though, from Bryan. He's admitted to you, that he knew that letting the other guy shoot the goat was wrong,and illegal. Period. He says himself that they should of waited for the hired guide. And the way our laws are, he could of been charged with a lot more. He shouldn't of been unaccompanied period at that time with a rifle or hunting gear. Much less wander off and hunt goats. Period. The guide they hired should of been charged also. Its simple, laws were broken, they got caught.
As to the residency thing, a lot of resident hunters do know about the number of days required. Its stated in the regs. Reason behind it is a lot of guys live in one province, work in another, keep dual houses. Don't want people to get greedy and double dip as residents. And this is enforced with cross province referencing.
As to him being a nice guy or not, could very well be. Haven't met him, yet. Fact remains, he screwed up, he knew it, he got busted.
KodiakHntr. You're right, he screwed up, was cited, has paid considerably - and is taking full responsibility. My point is he is no liar, thief, poacher, etc. My litmus test on a person's character or worthiness is not perfection.
7 STW, your cluelessness is matched only by your inability to read. Hint.. the second paragraph in my first post. Something else Macho Man.. where is your doorstep and what is your name? --funny that you happened to leave that out. You never know, if I happen to be in the neighborhood and I'm feeling a little surly, maybe I'll stop by. I could let my 4 year old daughter work you over because I'm sure my 7 yr old son would prefer more of a challenge.
After reading this over- I can now see why the judge passed a light sentence/accordingly. I wasn't privy to all the details and I think afew of the comments were a bit harsh. Mistakes can happen and I'm sure there will be many more, hopefully if I make a mistake I will not be judged too harshly.
Bryan made some bad decisions obviously but he does not need to be tarnished here.I know some Canadian born BC residents that makes his incident look like childs play and they do it year in and year out.I dont know Bryan personally but from what i have read and heard about the guy would have no problem hunting with him.We all make errors , learn from them and move on .
Ditto a thoughtful post here as well...
As if just ain't gonna let some [bleep] in boozeman dictate nuttin to me.
Kurt
I had not read your post before I posted last night and see quite a bit more clearly now... thanks!
art
7STW
I am more than certain Greenhorn does not need me, but your [bleep] post is very much out of line.
art
And Greenhorn's post about his four year old daughter working over 7STW wasn't?
Yup birds of the feather flock together..Outta line please...
Guess I'll call it a shift here.
And Greenhorn's post about his four year old daughter working over 7STW wasn't?
Well that part's prolly true... she's a pretty tough kid
I have a feeling old 7STW can take care of himself just fine, folks...
Good grief, now you guys want to duke it out over someone else's mistake. This thing has nothing to do with game violations, it has more to do with where he's from.....
It has everything to do with game violations.
Let me clarify.....when I say this thing, i'm talking about this heated debate, not the actual incident.....savvy.
He may very well be a guy you'd trust your wife and kids with. He also wouldn't be the first "trust worthy" guy to have a second personality, when money and/or trophy game was involved.
Wildlife offenders don't normally get caught on their first trangression. Brian's been tagged twice.
I bet this won't be his last conviction under the Wildlife act.....
Hope I'm wrong.
RO
Sadly, you may be right. How many times does a man have to get busted before people see his true colors? Not saying this guy is a bigtime lawbreaker but his current record doesn't look good. One can only hope he gets it turned around.
Got a seatbelt ticket a couple months ago,about a 500 yard drive to my tractor/trailer from home,630 in the morning,cop was on his way to Tim hortons,,(yes I checked),167 dollar fine,yyyeeeesss i DID break the law.
Rolled through a stop sign also a few months ago,cop pulled me over AT Tim Hortons,"If you had of been going more than 5 km per hour,I would have written you a ticket" LMAO,Are you serious????I say.allllrighttyyy then MR.POLICEMAN.yyeessss i DID break the law.
This thread reminds me of the some guy spouting off about this and that and not REALLY knowing what he is spouting about,everyone just shakes their head at him.Anyways if the world had more people like Bryan ,,,it would alot better off,trust me.Yes I am friend of his.For all you blowhards out there,give your head a shake and do your homework,before you hang someone.AAAHHH the internet a wonderfull thing.Brutal.
7STW
I am more than certain Greenhorn does not need me, but your [bleep] post is very much out of line.
art
Art, You post is out of line! Your a moderator here at the Campfire. Show some dignity. If this get me in trouble here thats ok. RIGHT IS RIGHT!!! You are wrong...
randy....
Considering how few wildlife violators actually get caught, Brian is setting the bar fairly high. He's been running a guide outfit for nearly 10 years, he should have a fairly good understanding of B.C. wildlife laws. No?
Altering documents on an illegally harvested grizzly, mountain goat and caribou is just a little more serious than forgetting to buckle up........
7STW
I am more than certain Greenhorn does not need me, but your [bleep] post is very much out of line.
art
Art, You post is out of line! Your a moderator here at the Campfire. Show some dignity. If this get me in trouble here thats ok. RIGHT IS RIGHT!!! You are wrong...
randy....
Agreed!
7STW
I am more than certain Greenhorn does not need me, but your [bleep] post is very much out of line.
art
Art, You post is out of line! Your a moderator here at the Campfire. Show some dignity. If this get me in trouble here thats ok. RIGHT IS RIGHT!!! You are wrong...
randy....
Agreed!
Add one more in agreement.
Cannot say when my dignity was last questioned... calling another poster a [bleep] is not acceptable at the campfire, period. It was not clever, related, nor in jest.
art
So is that a apology to 7 STW? Or to the Campfire? Sound about as sincere as a dried fart!
Art, Dont send me any more PM's about this! If you have something to say post it so all can see! Not going to play that game...
Bottom line is you gang up on people who are not in your click!
Thats easy to see period. I know that your post above was not a apology but it should have been.............
Bottom line is don't believe what you read in a press release like this... there's usually MUCH more to the story. Also.. (7 STW) don't believe that every CO is bright, honest and out to serve justice like the right hand of God himself.
Your friend plead guilty to the charges,so we can only assume that he is guilty.As such he was rightly convicted and fined.After one incident,one would think that he would be careful enough not to violate the regulations a second time.Obviously he wasn't.After two convictions,why would we now believe that he will not violate the regulations yet again?
I have got one! Its hanging out with friends,and family. Doing a little hunting and fishing when I can. Not hanging out with poachers of any kind....
Randy
You were involved with this because you chose to take exception to me telling folks that calling folks "[bleep]" is not acceptable?
Somehow I did not realize I had a "click" either. I am not a clique kind of guy, sorry.
But now you get in here and wad your panties over what? So, let me make this very clear and public; Those are the rules and if you do not like them at least be adult enough to stick to discussions actually involving you. Coming into someone elses "house" and disrespecting the rules is not a proper course of action for an adult. There are very few rules here and the least you can do is follow the ones that are there.
art
PM coming, too.
Art, You had every right to call 7 STW out for the [bleep] comment but when it comes to Greenhorn's post you say nothing! What's up with that?
Greenhorn Quote: Something else Macho Man.. where is your doorstep and what is your name? --funny that you happened to leave that out. You never know, if I happen to be in the neighborhood and I'm feeling a little surly, maybe I'll stop by.
Randy
Maybe he got a PM, too? Why don't you let others worry about their own business? Somehow I missed the the big M by your name...
art
STA: my little girl kill you.
d.o.u.c.h.e.b.a.g.
Started off nicely but deteriorated quickly to name calling. Shame on you guys,now ready for the big flush. Draws a crowd but all for the wrong reasons.
Reminds me of the fish to short story. A fish cop was checking pickerel lengths and noted that a 9 year old had a fish a couple of centimeters to short. Automatically the fish cop started writing out a ticket for a poacher. The father said "it's his first fish and he was so exited and started crying when I told him we had to release it. Cut us some slack please" the father pleaded. A crowd soon gathered around the familly and with the pressure applied the ticket was ripped up.
The ticket was going to father but he didn't catch the fish. Sometimes Outfitters have to take the wrap for a client's screw up and do the best he can with the cards he is dealt.
We don't think twice about cheating on our taxes but remember it's a criminal offense according to who? Ask Wesley Snipes.
It seems there are some who wish to excuse the outfitter for what they call technicalities. Things such as having a resident quide present are not mere technicalities. What is to stop an outfitter from hiring one guide and using him in a blanket way to cover all clients. It seems the requirement that the guide be physically present is the only way to accomplish this.
Getting caught twice is a sign that he is not respectfull of BC's laws and regulations.
As for comparing his two convictions to traffic violations, many Canadians feel he should have more time to drive and pile up American traffic tickets and less time in the Canadian bush breaking our laws.
A fish cop was checking pickerel lengths and noted that a 9 year old had a fish a couple of centimeters to short. Automatically the fish cop started writing out a ticket for a poacher. The father said "it's his first fish and he was so exited and started crying when I told him we had to release it. Cut us some slack please" the father pleaded. A crowd soon gathered around the familly and with the pressure applied the ticket was ripped up.
In my opinion the fish should have been released,If the child is going to fish,he has to learn to obey the regulations.If he is told that it is okay to make exceptions now,he will likely break the rules again.
A fish cop was checking pickerel lengths and noted that a 9 year old had a fish a couple of centimeters to short. Automatically the fish cop started writing out a ticket for a poacher. The father said "it's his first fish and he was so exited and started crying when I told him we had to release it. Cut us some slack please" the father pleaded. A crowd soon gathered around the familly and with the pressure applied the ticket was ripped up.
In my opinion the fish should have been released,If the child is going to fish,he has to learn to obey the regulations.If he is told that it is okay to make exceptions now,he will likely break the rules again.
As an Alberta Conservation program instructor, I would have to say that a perfect time to teach the child about conservation and why the fish should have been released was missed by the parent. Ticket should have stood as well. Hopefully the CO took the time to talk with the child.
Sometimes Outfitters have to take the wrap for a client's screw up and do the best he can with the cards he is dealt.
If he was half the man that Horn says he is, Brian would have taken the "wrap" by contacting the CO service personally and saying that one of his clients screwed up. Brian could have saved face with said client by paying the dudes fine for him. Altering documents, then getting pinched on same, undermines any/all credibility he may have had. And like I said before, guys usually don't get busted on their first offence and Brian already has 2.
RO
STA: my little girl kill you.
d.o.u.c.h.e.b.a.g. Good form there Greenhorn, especially after Art calls STW out for name calling on your behalf.
RO
Apparently, Greenhorn ain't to bright or doesn't understand english. Your doing a piss poor job of defending your friend Bryan with these type of posts too.
Apparently, Greenhorn ain't to bright or doesn't understand english. Your doing a piss poor job of defending your friend Bryan with these type of posts too.
The friends that a person keeps are usually a good indication of the type of person that he is.
1999 was the first year that I owned the area and I had just applied and was accepted as a Landed Immigrant to Canada (I moved from the US), but I couldn't hold a guide license until 2000. The pilot was supposed to be our guide, but because of the weather, he couldn't make it back to us for 4 days. It just so happened that as the hunter and I were hiking up to recover his goat, that a guide from the neighboring area, was taking a short cut through our area, with his hunter. We talked and he saw that our guide was not with us. In fact, our guide/pilot flew over as we were talking, saw us, landed at the nearby lake and started up the trail to help with the goat. Our guide met the neighboring guide part way. Then, our guide, feeling bad for the very tired hunter, helped carry this hunter's pack back to the plane, then flew this guide and hunter, back to their base camp. My hunter and I had to pack his goat back alone and then wait until the next day to get picked up. Two years later, when this guide was no longer able to guide in this outfitter's area, because the outfitter leased the area to me instead, he turned the hunter and I into the game department, for hunting without a guide, because he was pissed at me for "taking his lease". Because I had let the hunter use my gun to shoot the goat and because I was the owner of this new business, I was charged with guiding without a license. We had a guide, he just wasn't physically present again.
Hunting without a guide is against the law for a non resident of BC, which the owner of a territory (Bryan Martin) damn well woudl have known. So he knowingly broke the law here.
The same time that the COS was talking to me about this issue, they had received a complaint that I had hunted as a resident in both Montana and BC, in 2000. When I showed them my non-resident hunting license and tags in MT, for 2000, plus proved that I met the residency requirements of being a resident for 7 months before hunting in BC, that charge was dropped. They then wanted to know how many days I was in and out of BC in 2001. According to their interpretation of the game laws, residency was a year to year situation. They based residency, also on physical presence in the province. Most residents likely didn't know that they were supposed to be physically present for 7 months of the proceeding 12 months, before doing any hunting as a resident. Since a month is basically 30 days, 7 times 30 is 210 days of physical presence was required. According to this law, even if you don't move or change your "residency", you might not be qualified to hunt as a resident. This is even if you owned or rented a home, paid taxes in BC, had everything registered in BC, didn't live anywhere else but BC and didn't claim any residency priviledges anywhere else, besides BC. So, if you were a truck driver and worked for more than 5 months outside of the providence or if you worked in a mine, say in Alberta, you might not have been qualified to hunt as a resident. But, if you couldn't hunt as a resident in BC and weren't qualified to hunt as a resident anywhere else, where does this put a guy? Pretty confusing. So, because I couldn't prove that I was in BC for 210 days in 2001, they charged me as not being qualified to hunt as a resident. I surely didn't keep track of where I was every day and could only prove less than 1/2 of a year of actually being physically present in BC.
Here is the BC WIldlife Act Definitions- And I dont' think this has been changed in years.
"resident" means
(a) a person who
(i) is a Canadian citizen or a permanent resident of Canada, whose only or primary residence is in British Columbia, and
(ii) has been physically present in British Columbia for the greater portion of each of 6 calendar months out of the 12 calendar months immediately preceding the date of making an application under this Act or doing another thing relevant to the operation of this Act, or
(b) a person who
(i) is not a Canadian citizen or a permanent resident of Canada, but whose only or primary residence is in British Columbia, and
(ii) has been physically present in British Columbia for the greater portion of each of the 12 calendar months immediately preceding the date of making an application under this Act or doing another thing relevant to the operation of this Act;
Bryan Martin may be the best guy in the world, a fine hunter and a great guide, but he has been operating in BC for a relatively short time and he has knowingly broken game laws and he has been shown to be a liar.
I suspect this will not be the last time we hear about him on charges.
seen my share of lower 48 and canucks barf in the Cabo pools
There are a few things wrong here.(That's my opinion).We have canadians thinking that only native people should be able to hunt in canada or be able to run an outfit????Anyone not born in Canada should not be allowed to hunt in the place he chooses to reside in?That's about the dumbest thing ,i have heard in a long time.Canadians like Americans like Jews like chinese etc break the law.We can not condone this and it should be dealt with severly,but making an immigrant issue out of it appears to be retarded,especially when Hunters around the world share the love for nature and game all the same.
We seem to forget that hunting and the great outdoors as well as the experience of each individiual makes frequenting Forums like this a great experience ,especially in times when hunting is at rest.
Me,i don't care what nationality or color someone is.If he hunts ethically and with respect,he is my kind of guy.
If you pay taxes you should be able to hunt.
Sometimes we loose the respect when responding to statements,only because we never have to face the other person.If we would all be out in a hunting camp and have the same discussion,we would treat each other quite differently,i would hope.
Let us not forget that it is not only like-minded people that read in these Forums.
We have canadians thinking that only native people should be able to hunt in canada or be able to run an outfit????Anyone not born in Canada should not be allowed to hunt in the place he chooses to reside in?That's about the dumbest thing ,i have heard in a long time
Actually it was basically only one person that felt that way.
bummer, i just wasted 15 minutes of my life to find out someone has an opinion, facts are around if you want them and people screw up..... sue me
woofer
We have canadians thinking that only native people should be able to hunt in canada or be able to run an outfit????Anyone not born in Canada should not be allowed to hunt in the place he chooses to reside in?That's about the dumbest thing ,i have heard in a long time
Actually it was basically only one person that felt that way.
Well,isn't there are saying ,that "Evil things will prevail, when good men fail to act"??There were only a few guys that contradicted him,though.
Everyone is entitled to their opinion,but it should stop when we start making summary convictions.
Brian Martin was CONVICTED, not just "charged", "accused" or "alleged to have done". Not only that, but he's been CONVICTED not once, but TWICE.
Save the bullchit speech. If this act was committed in the US of A, by a Canadian immigrant, you would be doing anything but trying to justify his actions.
RO
Brian Martin was CONVICTED, not just "charged", "accused" or "alleged to have done". Not only that, but he's been CONVICTED not once, but TWICE.
Save the bullchit speech. If this act was committed in the US of A, by a Canadian immigrant, you would be doing anything but trying to justify his actions.
RO
Damn right.....and if it was a US citizen that got busted in the US of A he would be treated the same as any other vilator. Don't make this into something it isn't.
I have been reading this post with some laughs and a few smiles as I watch people go from discussing this post to becoming third grade playground kids who have nothing better to do that call each other names. You guys need to grow up and have a little common sense.
I have personally worked in the guide/outfitter business in BC for 9 years now. I have guided moose/bear and goat hunters from all over NA and have meet some really neat people. When it comes to the act and regs of the hunting/guiding industry, they are pretty well spelled out. There is not really much room for wiggling around.
The fact that Mr. martin actually had his hunter cancel his tags for the animals harvested, filled out a guide return with all the animals killed on it and that he doctored it to make it look like it was legal, tells me that he knew exactly what he was doing and the be damn with the laws of BC. As an Outfitter, he sets a crappy example to his guides, staff, clients and to the organization as a whole. Also what he did is a lot worse that some speeding ticket, seatbelt law or other minor infraction. What he did is inexcusable, if I did what he did, I would loose my guide licence and I would quite anyways because I would be disgusted with myself and be embarassed about it all.
I personally do not like foreign ownership of our territories, but until that is corrected, I live with it.
I also do not care if he is a US citizen or BC citizen, he has to be made accountable for his actions and since he pled guilty, he should lose his licence. The fine means nothing to him, but lose his licence and territory for 5 years and that is a lot of $$$ that he will never be able to make up. I have heard that GOABC is investigating him and his business and are looking at kicking him out of the association.
He might be a great guy to people on this board and to others in the business, and he probably is, but what he did is inexcusable and he should be ashamed of himself. I for one would not be letting that type of guy teach my kinds anything about life, especially about hunting. But that is my personal opinion.
SS
Brian Martin was CONVICTED, not just "charged", "accused" or "alleged to have done". Not only that, but he's been CONVICTED not once, but TWICE.
Save the bullchit speech. If this act was committed in the US of A, by a Canadian immigrant, you would be doing anything but trying to justify his actions.
RO
Why are you getting so worked up about it?I don't think,i would treat a canadian,who has commited the same crime in the USA any differently since i am canadian.The guy got his punishment and as SITKASPRUCE said,he is getting further investigated.What i have a problem with is that it becomes an immigrant issue.By the way, Brian Martin is a resident i.e:Landed immigrant in Canada,therefore he falls under the juristiction of canad.Laws just like a citizen does.He is according to the law,no foreigner any more.
I'm not even close to worked up, by a long shot.
I'm just calling B.S. on all the posters who are trying to down play what he did, like he some how got the chitty end of the stick.
RO
I'm just calling B.S. on all the posters who are trying to down play what he did, like he some how got the chitty end of the stick.
His friends would have him appear as a victim.
stubblejumper, Bryan isn't a victim.
The people who know him personally will always be his friend - and some (myself included) are bothered by the derogatory remarks made by those who will never sack up and do so in person..
Up untill very recently I was a American doing business in Canada. I, in fact was part owner/operator of a large fishing lodge.
I can say with out reservation that the redency compliant was a complete crock. In most provinces residency requirments allow for business travel while servicing a CA company to count as time spent.
As for the other compliants. Though pretty minor, never the less he should have known better.
I was always paranoid when it came following all CA laws to a T as I was foreigner.
BTW in response by a few to denounce all foreign ownership. Why dont you guys step up and throw your hat/Loonies into the ring?
Fact of the matter is, at least in the Fishing lodge business that most are owned by Americans, because Canadians dont want to bother with then. Romance aside, there are better ways to make money than being a outfitter.
I am new to this site and feel compelled to respond to this rant of a forum. I am born and raised in North East BC. That is the heart of hunting in BC and close to where these offenses occurred. I live in an area where huge economic value is seen from hunting. My extended family has owned territories for over 50 years. Some have retired and some have 2nd generation operations in BC and the Yukon.
What I read here is a disgrace to our community, our passion, our livelihood and our sport. I do not care where one is born or raised or where they choose to make a living. It is our right in a free democratic country and Continent to make a living.
All I ask is you do your job with the utmost respect and professionalism. Breaking any law no matter how small is not professional. He was not some young guide on his first hunt, but a seasoned hunter with all sorts of experience. He and his friends will consider himself a very professional hunter.
When going into to business it is in your best interest to know and abide by all governing laws. Hunting with a non resident with out a licensed guide is breaking the very first and most basic rule in our screwed up hunting laws. If anyone would know this it would be a non resident who has hunted abroad such as Bryan. I am sure he was on hunts before where he was dependent on a guide and knew their role.
His first offense has no excuse. The guide who did not accompany them would also have known they were not to hunt and I am sure he would have said to not continue hunting until he came back. I know when you have a paid hunter he wants to hunt but tough beans...no guide...no hunt. Sorry about your luck and for booking with the wrong outfitter. He should have been to stay in camp until the guide comes back.
I have taken out of province hunters out and knew the rules and knew he could not hunt without me at his side at all times. I sure hope a professional would know this after investing hundreds of thousands of dollars.
I am not going to call down Bryan or his friends on this site nor ask him to be deported. I simply ask our government to start taking hunting offenses seriously. We all know they have not shown much respect for our resources so unfortunately we depend on the so-called professionals to do this for us. And in Bryans case or should I say cases...he has not done this and has let myself as a hunter, my family as BC residents and all other guides and outfitters and sportsmen around the world down in a huge way.
I have no use for anyone who knowingly breaks any hunting or fishing regulation and does not treat our wildlife with the out most respect.
Here is to true sportsmanship. Hope to see all of you in the backcountry.
Mr. BCRiverBoater;
I would like to first extend a welcome to you here from another Canuck, typing from the south central part of our province.
Next, I would like to say I appreciated the thoughts in your post and especially the manner which you conveyed them.
Again, welcome and hopefully we will cross paths or posts in the future.
Regards,
Dwayne
Sounds more like the old resident hunter vs. professional hunter deal. Tastes like a 24 hour gum.
What I do not see: what has nationality to do with it?
I have been reading this post with some laughs and a few smiles as I watch people go from discussing this post to becoming third grade playground kids who have nothing better to do that call each other names. You guys need to grow up and have a little common sense.
I have personally worked in the guide/outfitter business in BC for 9 years now. I have guided moose/bear and goat hunters from all over NA and have meet some really neat people. When it comes to the act and regs of the hunting/guiding industry, they are pretty well spelled out. There is not really much room for wiggling around.
The fact that Mr. martin actually had his hunter cancel his tags for the animals harvested, filled out a guide return with all the animals killed on it and that he doctored it to make it look like it was legal, tells me that he knew exactly what he was doing and the be damn with the laws of BC. As an Outfitter, he sets a crappy example to his guides, staff, clients and to the organization as a whole. Also what he did is a lot worse that some speeding ticket, seatbelt law or other minor infraction. What he did is inexcusable, if I did what he did, I would loose my guide licence and I would quite anyways because I would be disgusted with myself and be embarassed about it all.
I personally do not like foreign ownership of our territories, but until that is corrected, I live with it.
I also do not care if he is a US citizen or BC citizen, he has to be made accountable for his actions and since he pled guilty, he should lose his licence. The fine means nothing to him, but lose his licence and territory for 5 years and that is a lot of $$$ that he will never be able to make up. I have heard that GOABC is investigating him and his business and are looking at kicking him out of the association.
He might be a great guy to people on this board and to others in the business, and he probably is, but what he did is inexcusable and he should be ashamed of himself. I for one would not be letting that type of guy teach my kinds anything about life, especially about hunting. But that is my personal opinion.
SS
Exactly.I do not care if Mr.Martin is American,Canadian,or Taiwanese.I don't care where he resides or what kind of guy he might be.I do care that an outfitter that has been twice CONVICTED of wildlife offences continues to operate an outfitting business in this Province.That is not Mr.Martin's doing,it is the responsibility of the Government of BC to cancel licences belonging to repeat offenders,and it matters not where they call home.In this case the two convictions speak for themselves,G/O licences are not a right,they are a privelege,and if they are abused they should be rescinded. Monashee
Well it must be COLD UP NORTH this topic is almost a year old and it has been hashed and bashed to helll and back. has MR. Martin done some thing wrong as of late. I met Brian last year and if most of you did not know who he was and had just met him you would be on hear telling us what a great guy his was or is IMHO i think he is a good fella . I don't and won't make any statement on what he did or has not done. laws are laws and we all ned to follow them.
I met Brian last year and if most of you did not know who he was and had just met him you would be on hear telling us what a great guy his was or is IMHO i think he is a good fella .
He's not the first "good fella" to cash his ethic's in for money.....Though I doubt that fact would come up in casual conversation.
Brian Martin is a poacher, nothing more, nothing less.......
RO
Brian Martin is a poacher, nothing more, nothing less.......
RO
Bryan Martin is human, nothing more nothing less.......
KC
Don't forget LLoyd Mcmahon of Alberta.He has been convicted of multiple game act offences,and criminal offenses as well over the period of a few years.
There's plenty of names on "the wall of shame".Some are Canadians, some are not.That's totally immaterial.What counts is that outfitters convicted under the Wildlife act should be forced to surrender their G/O licence.They know better. Monashee
Well it must be COLD UP NORTH this topic is almost a year old and it has been hashed and bashed to helll and back. has MR. Martin done some thing wrong as of late. I met Brian last year and if most of you did not know who he was and had just met him you would be on hear telling us what a great guy his was or is IMHO i think he is a good fella . I don't and won't make any statement on what he did or has not done. laws are laws and we all ned to follow them.
He might be the greatest guy in the world, he is still been convicted twice...