Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunter's Campfire Sunday's religious debate....death....

Why a fear of death?

Because it is unknown territory. Let us strip it of all religious trappings and that is it.

It is unknown territory and almost every human fears or at least distrusts the unknown.

I am aware of the NDE tales too but one thing must be admited about them. Those who experience them were not really dead. Despite what may be claimed in our present state of clinical knowledge they just weren't really dead.

If by fear of death you mean terror I have none.
If by fear you mean respect I do.
I have seen enough to know how quick it can happen.

BCR

I just realized that I was going to Hell and accepted it. I knew that I wasn't good enough to make it to Heaven. I had heard most all of the Fire and Brimstone sermons growing up, and then one day I heard a sermon on Grace and my eyes were opened. Today, I don't fear death. I I know it is just the next step and the lord will hold my hand as I make it.

Why would a strong person need a tool to rule a weak person?

Sounds to me more like it'd be the weak person who needed a tool to rule a strong person.

Or perhaps a small group (a State, for example) that would need a tool to rule a large group (an entire population, for example).


I don't know if you get what I was trying to express. Religion is the 'tool' that people can use to get other people to do things they might not do on their own. Some religions set up a system that offers rewards for towig the party line, this may secure a favorable place while doing a 'sin' may not permit the reward. There is always a question ' am I doing enough' to insure the reward. For example presidents swear on the bible for admittance to that office, they profess to believe. It does really matter if they do or not as long as you do, there in lies the catch!

My faith is not blind faith, for "Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." What I believe and why I believe it are biblical.

Oh, I understand. You're talking about the union of church and State, where the church's priests are used as State intellectuals to justify the State's enslavement of the populace.

But the problem in that situation is not the church, but the coercive power of the State. If the church is strictly a voluntary organization, there's no slavery involved.

You, for example: are you a slave to the church?

Boggy, my friend, beautifully well said.

The question that always gets me is that while you can use arguments like the Thomistic proof to argue the existence of a God using reason, how can you know that your religion is the right one? Other than blind faith. Undoubtably, every real believe holds that his own religion is the True one.

I understand the appeal of certain religions. Those who argue that only faith is required have the best deal. Do nothing but believe, and you are assured a place in heaven. Why would this not be attractive? It essentially costs nothing. It requires no effort.

But if you are weighed and measured by you acts, then you actually have to do something to earn your place. That's a much harder proposition. If you are actually expected to say, live as Christ lived, and live according to his teachings, that would be a very hard life. It would certainly mean doing without all the worldly possessions we do so love.

The whole thing is very debatable, but because all religion is ultimately about faith, not reason, it cannot be argues reasonably. And even any atheist worth his salt knows that you cannot disprove the existence of a supreme being or beings. Most of the atheists I know don't even bother to argue the point, as it is unprovable.

As for Barak's point, are we slave to the church? Yes and no. Religion has accepted, fostered and even promoted slavery. And anyone who been proselytized to against their will has at the very least felt like a hostage. It wouldn't be so bad if people would keep their religion to themselves and not try to force it on others.

With respect, isn't that pretty much the definition of blind faith, i.e. believing without seeing? Without any evidence other than scripture.

My faith hasn't been blind for years and years. I was 12 years old when I had what so far I've been calling my "first bidirectional prayer experience," simply because I haven't had a better name for it--although I've been a Christian since age 3.


I'm sure Heaven will be nice, but that's not the appeal for me. The appeal for me is a daily personal relationship with the Creator of the universe. Heaven will take care of itself when the time comes.


You'd be surprised.

You'd be freakin' amazed, as a matter of fact.


Please, don't be silly. Being proselytized to against your will can't be any worse than feeling compelled to listen to Aunt Susie talk about her colon operation. I know: I've been proselytized to against my will. Don't use the language of coercion when it's not justified.


Methinks you really have no idea what it is to have somebody else's religion forced on you. Perhaps you should talk to a Jew about the Spanish Inquisition.

You got Bob. I'll try to remember.

Issac,

I believe,and don't have to say it a million times. For I know whom I have believed and am persuaded that He is able to keep that which I have commited unto Him againist that day.

It makes more sense that thinking we are all a big accident,or the product of an impersonal diety who wound up the universe like a clock and then walked away.

Me and your Mama both think you'd make a wonderful believer.

Britt

I thought I was a Christian because I was brought up in a Roman Catholic home with all that entails. In my teens I begin to realize something was wrong and hence begun my spiritual path quest. I was never a Christian.

I think Barak explained you second question better than I could.

As to third question, no authority. My intuition tells me I just know. Thomas Paine talked about intuition some in his book the "Age of Reason". He said it was the best way to know. I agree.

Geesh, you mean a tax accountant can't be a philosopher? A lot more thinking goes into tax law than meets the eye. Ask Bob or Steve or any of the other lawyers on here. They are philosophers by default if for no other reason.

No criticism Derby. Just the odd-couple juxtaposition of the rigid laws of mathematics on one hand to balance the earthly books and Paine's (or your intuition) on the other settle eternity's question (also a "balancing of the books" as it were). I would be very carefull about agreeing with Paine so quickly on this question. I have no questions about your ability as a philosopher or that of anyone else here; I would say my experience is more along the lines of Augustine in that once so lost, now having been found, joy is my dependable companion (not always happiness).

As has been mentioned, God is a personal God as is my relationship with Him; I know He's there as I know oxygen is in the air I breath. Permit me a couple of Biblical references if you would: Romans 8:16, "The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit tht we are God's children." I Cor 2:9, "However, as it is written: 'No eye has seen, no ear has heard, no mind has conceived what God has prepared for those who love him'- but God has revealed it to us by his Spirit."

The spiritual conundrum and experience put forth here is one doesn't know the truth until he first believes (faith) the truth; then it is confirmed to him. God does things a little differently. That is my and all other true Christian's reality.

Many grow up as cultural Christians without the personal relationship but that can change.

Hope Yours is a Great Week,

gdv

I don't do mathematics. If I did the world would be in trouble. As a tax accountant all do is deal with tax law and make sure the tax forms are filled out correctly. Mostly what I do is simple arithmetic with a few simply algebraic formulas thrown in. All the heavy math has been done by the IRS and the states before it to gets to the tax man. The government has the math whizzes not the accounting firm. If accountants had to be a math whiz most of us would be out of work.

BTW: If I was a math whiz I would use symbolic logic to think rather than dialectic logic which is words. Than I would use very complex formulas and really confuse the heck out of you, well all except Barak.

Hope this clears things up.

Doesn't matter; God made it all

As a human race, we really are all so arrogant to think if it doesn't "sense" to us it can't be...

BTW, I don't particularly enjoy going to you guys

How does Christianity = free choice, when people are told that if they don't believe (or in my case, CAN'T believe) that there is a lake of fire, and a place of wailing and gnashing of teeth and eternal never-ending torment for people who don't or can't believe.

It's why Christians tortured the unbelievers during the Inquisition, and during the subjugation of native people by the Conquistadors. The Christians rationalized what they did, by admitting they were ruining what was left of the non-believer's "earthly" lives - but in exchange, those people were for a great deal - "for all eternity".

In a court of law - they'd call such a deal "extortion".

But hey, after all, you have - "free will" - and remember - God LOVES you!

So long as you are not a preprogrammed automaton, you have a free choice in the matter of how you respond to God's call to salvation.

If you became hopelessly indebted to a king, and he placed you in prison until the debt was paid back (an impossibility), and someone came along and paid your debt for you out of his own pocket, would you say that was an act of love, neutrality, or hate?

It would depend upon whether or not that someone was himself indebted to the same king, and whether his actions were in fact a furtherance of that same king's overall plan and desire.

Brian,

God proved how much He loved us on that cross,and He desires to have a relationship with you.

I would not trade knowing Him for anything this old world has to offer,not knowing about Him,but really knowing Him.

Why do you resist Him so much if you really don't believe He exists? All the energy and effort you put into resistance imply that you are trying to convince yourself you're right.

It is your choice,you do choose,whether you like it or not.

Britt

I know lots of Christians but do not know of a single one that has an "incredible fear of death." Where did that come from? Nobody in good health really looks forward to the dying process but true Christians know that they have no reason to fear what happens after they pass on from this world as our Lord and Saviour has promised eternal life with Him. And being God, He will keep His promise. The God-breathed Word of God tells us that when that time comes, we are passed from death to life. Just opposite from what happens to unsaved people except that the unsaved really have no life here nor will there be life for them after they leave this world and inherit their final destiny, which is eternal seperation from God. Man has nothing to loose by believing Gods' word but much to loose by not believing.

No man can cause a non-believer to change his mind; being drawn by Gods' Holy Spirit is the only way so niether you or anyone else has anything to fear by hearing the Gospel of God, the only way to salvation. Before I became a Christian I had no fear of what would happen to me when I die because I was ignorant of what the scripture says.

There will be many Christians that will not have to die a phsyical death as one day soon, very soon, the true church which is made up of all Christians, will be caught up from this earth. What a terrible time that event will usher in. Borrow a bible from someone sometime soon and read the book of the Revelation. Even if you choose not to believe it, you just might have reason to do some serious thinking.