On another thread someone posted on Christian's incredible fear of death which got me to thinking, yes I know that's dangerous but it's also my perpetual state.

When I was a Catholic/Christian I had an incredible fear of death myself. I also had an incredible fear of a permanent disability that would take away my freedom. I don't know which cause me more anxiety, death or disability.

But once I became a Deist/Pagan the anxiety of death at least no longer existed. I wasn't anymore interested in dying than anybody else, nor did I have a death wish or want to commit suicide. I respected death but I no longer feared death. To me it was just crossing over to another realm no big deal.

The question is this if Christians believe that there is life after death and they are going to God and Jesus why are they so afraid of dying when the opportunity is presented? Why fight it! As a Christian (when I was one) I never could understand it. I still don't understand Christian's fear of death.

Okay, boys and girls have at it.

I fear death, and I'm a faithful Christian. I believe I'll go to Heaven, but the transition will no-doubt be very intense.
It's also hard to imagine leaving everything you've earned behind -- at least for me. Friends, possessions, everything.
Humans will always have a fear of death, no matter how big or small it is. That's just how I see it. *Shrug*

I'm agin' it.

Death is merely the last piece to the life cycle puzzle. It happens to every single living creature. When I die, my body will go back to the earth. Nothing more, nothing less. I find it hard to believe that anything else can occur, especially due to a higher power. However, I'd venture to say that its perfectly natural to fear death, as we have built in mechanisms for self-preservation. Our mind subconsciously 'tells' us not to die, or do anything dumb that would result in death.

most don't believe their own BS. Now if you strap a bomb to yourself and walk into a crowded market and blow yourself and others up, just to get a crack at 72 black eyed virgins, then you are a believer. Besides its , religion, just a tool for strong people to rule the weak.

How do you explain the many accounts of folks dying, and after being revived reporting that they were outside of their bodies, and can identify things that happened while they were dead and seemed to float above their bodies watching the events unfold. For example, a child died on the operating table, and was revived just in the nick of time. When she came to later, she asked if she could have the doll that was in the lamp. No one knew what she was talking about, and she explained that she had been floating above her body when she died, and saw a doll inside the lamp which was hanging from a cord from the ceiling of the operating room. When they checked, there was indeed a small dust-covered doll in there which was impossible to see from any position other than directly above it. It was one of the physicians who recorded the story.

I have heard of such accounts. It is possible that there are elements that we don't understand, this does not prove the exsistance of a god , heysoos, e-bunny, s-claus, the whole heirarchy of mans religion. It may have started out , religion , with good intentions but man has bastardized it to a point it is unrecognizable, other than a tool for repression. Some UFO's can't be explained either.

I've obviously no explanation with sufficient evidence to say it was or wasn't something supernatural. But, I feel there are vast amounts of knowledge we don't know regarding the power of the human mind and conscience, which is my theory on happenings like that. I just cannot bring myself to believe in a higher power.

For me, religion was designed by humans to explain things that they could not at that time due to limited knowledge, nothing more. I cannot accept blind faith.

I AGREE

I don't think it's so much the fear of death that christians are afraid of rather it's the fear of going to hell should they somehow not make the requirements of going to heaven. Most christians have guilty conciences, most know they haven't truly repented for their sins.

Where did God come from anyways??

Ask Aristotle, and he'll tell you that logic demands that there be one God, one prime mover, and that he is "uncreated being," i.e., existed before both time and space, and has no origin. Origin is only demanded of created things, not creators.

You may have a point there. I don't believe in sin any more so I no longer have a guilty conscience.

Agreed.

Agreed.

Where do you find your standard of right vs wrong? Is it just what feels right/wrong at the time? Most likely, if that's it, you are just going by your early formation, which was likely based on what Christianity teaches is right and wrong. What if you didn't have that formation? What would be right and wrong then?

on paper i'm a christian(not catholic, the other variant),
last time i was in church was may 2000 when i got confirmed, the next time will be for my funeral.
as you probably have guessed i'm not religous.
anyways...

i see death as the reward.
im not suicidal or seeks death in any way, i just see it as going to bed after a long hard day, or the end of a hard project etc at work.
the end. nothing more, nothing less.
just the end.

Well there is no doubt that the Christian Code probably still has some foundation but Bushido, Yin and Yang, the Witch's Rede, the Sacred Feminine Principle probably are my main codes now.

Bushido:

"Honor before Life."

I learned in the military that honor is the most important thing even more important that life itself. Before I do anything I always ask myself is this honorable, if it is I do it. If it turns out not to be I take personal responsibility and live with the consequence of my actions. I have no regrets or guilty conscience.

Yin and Yang:

Balance in everything you do. Harmony is happiness. No guilty conscience.

Witch's Rede:

"If thee harm none, (including your self) do as you will."

"What goes out comes bank three times worst."

I have followed the Witch's Rede even though I'm not a Witch and so far it's kept me out of trouble. No guilty conscience.

Sacred Feminine Principle:

Women and men are sacred. The principle goes beyond that but that's the jest of it. No guilty conscience.

I hope this helps and as you can see Pagans do have a Code they live by. The biggest thing is that we remove guilty conscience and heaven and hell from our way of life. Most Pagans I know are some of the happy. sexy, and full of life people I know.

derby_dude;

Friend, I suspect that you and I could have some rather interesting conversations re: philosophy and religion.

Might have to, at some point.....

Would love to. Maybe we might meet at a Campfire confab. Maybe BCBrian can get the northwest one going. I'd like to talk philosophy and religion with Brian too.

I don't fear my death. Hell, I don't even have any strong feelings attached to it. When my ticket is punched, I'll take whatever ride comes after. Not much I can do about it.

Permanent disablility is an entirely different issue. Being laid up without my freedom is probably my worst fear. I figure death wouldn't come too long after.

George

You don't need to have religion to develop a moral framework. Read about 2000 years of philosophy. Most of what Christianity teaches as morality was adopted from previous religions or even pagan philosophies.

Christian tradition itself is full of conflicting moral codes. Look at the new and old testaments. Or the behavior of most Christians versus the teachings and examples of Jesus.

Well said.

Must be "fun" to live without hope of any kind.

Qtip
Soli Deo Gloria!

I don't fear death, it's the dying I fear.

I don't experience feelings of guilt, Jesus Christ took that load and paid the debt. (Where's the little yellow fellow jumping up and down and shouting Glory, Hallelujah hiding at?)

I don't have religion, I have a relationship with the Saviour.

I don't have a huge list of rules and regulations, I have the perfect law of liberty applied to my soul through the blood of Jesus Christ.

Don't know what some of you guys have, but that's what the Lord gave me.

The idea of am after life was invented to keep humans from realizeing that what ever is done now, by them or any one else makes no differance in the grand scheme (if there is one) We are here till we die. Then who knows, maybe we go to the happy hunting ground, maybe we get reborn and have to put up with all the BS again, Maybe we get the 72 virgins. Maybe nothing, we rot and go back to earth.

Heaven- Hell , if you don't do this you won't get that. the idea of a bluff is to get you to question your hand ( poker). This is the basis of fear mongering the religous organizations hold over there members. They for ever question the hand dealt them, but seldom will fold. Play your good hands hard and dump the poor ones immediately, lest you be tempted to play with crap. life is like a poker game in many respects.

Why would a strong person need a tool to rule a weak person?

Sounds to me more like it'd be the weak person who needed a tool to rule a strong person.

Or perhaps a small group (a State, for example) that would need a tool to rule a large group (an entire population, for example).

I live with a myriad of hope, and of hopes. Just without at least one delusion.

In my experience, there are two groups of Christians with regard to death.

In one group, you have the folks who believe that after they die, God will look at their lives and, according to some heuristic criterion (may vary from denomination to denomination) will decide whether to send them to Heaven or to Hell. These are the people who hope they're going to Heaven when they die.

In the other group, you have the folks who believe that there's some kind of a choice one can make during one's life that will force God--bound by the promises he has made--to make the Heaven/Hell decision in a predetermined way. These people know they're going to Heaven when they die.

If you get a guy from each of these groups and get them talking about death and the afterlife, you'll have an entertaining time. The folks from the first group think the folks from the second group are blasphemously arrogant, and the folks from the second group think the folks from the first group are taking an inconceivable risk.

My objective is not to declare which group is right and which group is wrong (although I'm solidly in the second group, myself) but simply to say that it makes sense for the folks from the first group to be a bit nervous about death, since it forever eliminates any further chances to influence God in the direction they want him to decide, while it doesn't make as much sense for folks in the second group to be nervous about death unless they're procrastinating the big choice.

Can next week's religious debate be about coveting thy neighbor's wife??

As for permanent disability...I don't relish the thought, but if I did become permanently disabled, I'd assume the reason was because God had a job for me that I wouldn't be able to do if I weren't permanently disabled. From my point of view, this life here on earth is such a small part of the entire experience that in the big picture what happens here is of little import.

Frame it and post it.

I remember asking that question when I was about 10 years old. Never did get an answer.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

If my wife knew I did post it,we'd be right back to the death debate.

Derby,

A couple of questions:

Why if you are not a Christian now do you assume you ever were?

By what standard are all Christians afraid of death?

What is this "other realm" after death you believe in and what is your authority for it? This "other realm"-is it for eternity? What goes? Your soul or....do you have a soul? If for eternity do you think it's "no big deal?"

And, why do you raise the question-thread-at all? For an accountant who lives in the world of irrepresable mathematical figures, you are "hopin' and pokin'" my friend.

Gdv

The ultimate delusion is blind faith in the unproven idea that there is no God. The most religious people I have ever seen are atheists. The mental gymastics they go through to try and drag logic into their emotions is amusing.

I wish they'd just be honest and admit they have chosen to believe that there is no God. There is no hypocrisy or falsehood in that. It is a leap of faith to go from what can be observed to the status of any supernatural being, for ANYONE, regardless if they beleive in God or not.

The difference with real Christians--not the "on paper" types mentioned earlier, is that real Christians base their faith on a personal relationship with God. Because I know God personally, trying to tell me He doesn't exists is as nonsensical as telling me that my parents, wife, and kids don't exist.

To be blunt, several on here who claimed to have been Christians in the past obviously weren't. Oh, they may have gone to church and talked the talk, but it's extremely unlikely they ever had a personal relationship with God, and that personal relationship with God is what defines a true Christian. And if you want to know how a real Christian views death, read Shootists post.

I also find it amusing that the "logcial" reasons so many use to reject God are emotion-based. Like "if God were so good then why do bad things happen?" Their thought seems to be that because they can't fully understand God or agree with everything that happens; then God must not exist.

So maybe someone them can explain exactly what understanding and liking something have to do with the truth of that thing's existence?

Never said there was no God.

Only that I'm not delusional enough to believe in religion.

The ultimate delusion is blind faith in the unproven idea that there is no God. The most religious people I have ever seen are atheists. The mental gymastics they go through to try and drag logic into their emotions is amusing.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

A brain and it's abilty to reason and exhibit logic is real and something you can truly identify and grab hold of. Blind faith is merely that. If it comforts you to reverse the mental gymnastics from the one of faith to the man of reason, have at it. If you say it a million times to yourself, even you might someday truly believe it.

Why a fear of death?

Because it is unknown territory. Let us strip it of all religious trappings and that is it.

It is unknown territory and almost every human fears or at least distrusts the unknown.

I am aware of the NDE tales too but one thing must be admited about them. Those who experience them were not really dead. Despite what may be claimed in our present state of clinical knowledge they just weren't really dead.

If by fear of death you mean terror I have none.
If by fear you mean respect I do.
I have seen enough to know how quick it can happen.

BCR

I just realized that I was going to Hell and accepted it. I knew that I wasn't good enough to make it to Heaven. I had heard most all of the Fire and Brimstone sermons growing up, and then one day I heard a sermon on Grace and my eyes were opened. Today, I don't fear death. I I know it is just the next step and the lord will hold my hand as I make it.

Why would a strong person need a tool to rule a weak person?

Sounds to me more like it'd be the weak person who needed a tool to rule a strong person.

Or perhaps a small group (a State, for example) that would need a tool to rule a large group (an entire population, for example).


I don't know if you get what I was trying to express. Religion is the 'tool' that people can use to get other people to do things they might not do on their own. Some religions set up a system that offers rewards for towig the party line, this may secure a favorable place while doing a 'sin' may not permit the reward. There is always a question ' am I doing enough' to insure the reward. For example presidents swear on the bible for admittance to that office, they profess to believe. It does really matter if they do or not as long as you do, there in lies the catch!

My faith is not blind faith, for "Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." What I believe and why I believe it are biblical.

Oh, I understand. You're talking about the union of church and State, where the church's priests are used as State intellectuals to justify the State's enslavement of the populace.

But the problem in that situation is not the church, but the coercive power of the State. If the church is strictly a voluntary organization, there's no slavery involved.

You, for example: are you a slave to the church?

Boggy, my friend, beautifully well said.

The question that always gets me is that while you can use arguments like the Thomistic proof to argue the existence of a God using reason, how can you know that your religion is the right one? Other than blind faith. Undoubtably, every real believe holds that his own religion is the True one.

I understand the appeal of certain religions. Those who argue that only faith is required have the best deal. Do nothing but believe, and you are assured a place in heaven. Why would this not be attractive? It essentially costs nothing. It requires no effort.

But if you are weighed and measured by you acts, then you actually have to do something to earn your place. That's a much harder proposition. If you are actually expected to say, live as Christ lived, and live according to his teachings, that would be a very hard life. It would certainly mean doing without all the worldly possessions we do so love.

The whole thing is very debatable, but because all religion is ultimately about faith, not reason, it cannot be argues reasonably. And even any atheist worth his salt knows that you cannot disprove the existence of a supreme being or beings. Most of the atheists I know don't even bother to argue the point, as it is unprovable.

As for Barak's point, are we slave to the church? Yes and no. Religion has accepted, fostered and even promoted slavery. And anyone who been proselytized to against their will has at the very least felt like a hostage. It wouldn't be so bad if people would keep their religion to themselves and not try to force it on others.

With respect, isn't that pretty much the definition of blind faith, i.e. believing without seeing? Without any evidence other than scripture.

My faith hasn't been blind for years and years. I was 12 years old when I had what so far I've been calling my "first bidirectional prayer experience," simply because I haven't had a better name for it--although I've been a Christian since age 3.


I'm sure Heaven will be nice, but that's not the appeal for me. The appeal for me is a daily personal relationship with the Creator of the universe. Heaven will take care of itself when the time comes.


You'd be surprised.

You'd be freakin' amazed, as a matter of fact.


Please, don't be silly. Being proselytized to against your will can't be any worse than feeling compelled to listen to Aunt Susie talk about her colon operation. I know: I've been proselytized to against my will. Don't use the language of coercion when it's not justified.


Methinks you really have no idea what it is to have somebody else's religion forced on you. Perhaps you should talk to a Jew about the Spanish Inquisition.

You got Bob. I'll try to remember.

Issac,

I believe,and don't have to say it a million times. For I know whom I have believed and am persuaded that He is able to keep that which I have commited unto Him againist that day.

It makes more sense that thinking we are all a big accident,or the product of an impersonal diety who wound up the universe like a clock and then walked away.

Me and your Mama both think you'd make a wonderful believer.

Britt

I thought I was a Christian because I was brought up in a Roman Catholic home with all that entails. In my teens I begin to realize something was wrong and hence begun my spiritual path quest. I was never a Christian.

I think Barak explained you second question better than I could.

As to third question, no authority. My intuition tells me I just know. Thomas Paine talked about intuition some in his book the "Age of Reason". He said it was the best way to know. I agree.

Geesh, you mean a tax accountant can't be a philosopher? A lot more thinking goes into tax law than meets the eye. Ask Bob or Steve or any of the other lawyers on here. They are philosophers by default if for no other reason.

No criticism Derby. Just the odd-couple juxtaposition of the rigid laws of mathematics on one hand to balance the earthly books and Paine's (or your intuition) on the other settle eternity's question (also a "balancing of the books" as it were). I would be very carefull about agreeing with Paine so quickly on this question. I have no questions about your ability as a philosopher or that of anyone else here; I would say my experience is more along the lines of Augustine in that once so lost, now having been found, joy is my dependable companion (not always happiness).

As has been mentioned, God is a personal God as is my relationship with Him; I know He's there as I know oxygen is in the air I breath. Permit me a couple of Biblical references if you would: Romans 8:16, "The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit tht we are God's children." I Cor 2:9, "However, as it is written: 'No eye has seen, no ear has heard, no mind has conceived what God has prepared for those who love him'- but God has revealed it to us by his Spirit."

The spiritual conundrum and experience put forth here is one doesn't know the truth until he first believes (faith) the truth; then it is confirmed to him. God does things a little differently. That is my and all other true Christian's reality.

Many grow up as cultural Christians without the personal relationship but that can change.

Hope Yours is a Great Week,

gdv

I don't do mathematics. If I did the world would be in trouble. As a tax accountant all do is deal with tax law and make sure the tax forms are filled out correctly. Mostly what I do is simple arithmetic with a few simply algebraic formulas thrown in. All the heavy math has been done by the IRS and the states before it to gets to the tax man. The government has the math whizzes not the accounting firm. If accountants had to be a math whiz most of us would be out of work.

BTW: If I was a math whiz I would use symbolic logic to think rather than dialectic logic which is words. Than I would use very complex formulas and really confuse the heck out of you, well all except Barak.

Hope this clears things up.

Doesn't matter; God made it all

As a human race, we really are all so arrogant to think if it doesn't "sense" to us it can't be...

BTW, I don't particularly enjoy going to you guys

How does Christianity = free choice, when people are told that if they don't believe (or in my case, CAN'T believe) that there is a lake of fire, and a place of wailing and gnashing of teeth and eternal never-ending torment for people who don't or can't believe.

It's why Christians tortured the unbelievers during the Inquisition, and during the subjugation of native people by the Conquistadors. The Christians rationalized what they did, by admitting they were ruining what was left of the non-believer's "earthly" lives - but in exchange, those people were for a great deal - "for all eternity".

In a court of law - they'd call such a deal "extortion".

But hey, after all, you have - "free will" - and remember - God LOVES you!

So long as you are not a preprogrammed automaton, you have a free choice in the matter of how you respond to God's call to salvation.

If you became hopelessly indebted to a king, and he placed you in prison until the debt was paid back (an impossibility), and someone came along and paid your debt for you out of his own pocket, would you say that was an act of love, neutrality, or hate?

It would depend upon whether or not that someone was himself indebted to the same king, and whether his actions were in fact a furtherance of that same king's overall plan and desire.

Brian,

God proved how much He loved us on that cross,and He desires to have a relationship with you.

I would not trade knowing Him for anything this old world has to offer,not knowing about Him,but really knowing Him.

Why do you resist Him so much if you really don't believe He exists? All the energy and effort you put into resistance imply that you are trying to convince yourself you're right.

It is your choice,you do choose,whether you like it or not.

Britt

I know lots of Christians but do not know of a single one that has an "incredible fear of death." Where did that come from? Nobody in good health really looks forward to the dying process but true Christians know that they have no reason to fear what happens after they pass on from this world as our Lord and Saviour has promised eternal life with Him. And being God, He will keep His promise. The God-breathed Word of God tells us that when that time comes, we are passed from death to life. Just opposite from what happens to unsaved people except that the unsaved really have no life here nor will there be life for them after they leave this world and inherit their final destiny, which is eternal seperation from God. Man has nothing to loose by believing Gods' word but much to loose by not believing.

No man can cause a non-believer to change his mind; being drawn by Gods' Holy Spirit is the only way so niether you or anyone else has anything to fear by hearing the Gospel of God, the only way to salvation. Before I became a Christian I had no fear of what would happen to me when I die because I was ignorant of what the scripture says.

There will be many Christians that will not have to die a phsyical death as one day soon, very soon, the true church which is made up of all Christians, will be caught up from this earth. What a terrible time that event will usher in. Borrow a bible from someone sometime soon and read the book of the Revelation. Even if you choose not to believe it, you just might have reason to do some serious thinking.

God is bound, in a very real respect, to the laws of justice, even though he is their author. That's because he may not contradict himself, and at the same time he must be perfectly just. Therefore it is possible for creations which he loves, due to their having free will, to fall afoul of those laws and to reap the consequences of doing so. The debt to the king represents the justice which is due to sinners. The payment of the debt represents God giving his only begotten son over to torturers and executioners in exchange for your being loosed from the trouble you've gotten yourself into vis-a-vis God's just laws. He cannot simply say that in this case, because he loves you, he will disregard his own just laws. Someone must pay the debt that has been incurred. And the debt is so great that only the ignominious death of the man/God on the cross will suffice.

Like a person like me - can believe in a world where nothing ever died, where every animal ate vegitables, where the world was created in six days, where the fossil record is meaningless, where a guy built a boat and put every earthly species on it etc. etc. etc.

I can't do it!

I tried, for decades to believe - it just won't happen.

I can't suspend my logical mind - and the answers I get, from even the best intentioned people - don't come close to allowing me to believe.

A man like you? We are both certified public school social studies teachers. Are you that much smarter than I am?

PS I find no contradiction between evolution, the fossil record, etc., and the truths revealed in sacred scripture.

Before you had watched a television or used electricity to turn on your lights, would you have believed that such things could ever be possible? Or believe that man could build a contraption that could fly like a bird? Or send men to and from the moon? Or come up with a device that would restore a mans' hearing? How about mahing a bomb from hydrogen? Or splitting atoms, so tiny that they can not be seen?

Believing God is easy; it's man that I have trouble with.

I'm not saying I'm smarter than any other man - BUT, I'm a man who NEEDS observable truth, logic, deductive reasoning and most of all - proof - or something close to it - before I can believe in ANYTHING.

The onus of proof, to me, is in the hands of the believers - to prove there IS a God.

I can't prove there ISN'T one, but I can't - nor can anyone else - prove there is no Jupiter, no Mars, no Venus, no Aphrodite, no Poseidon, no Ra, No Woden, no Thor, no Frigg, no Shiva, no Vishnu, no Krishna, no Manitou, No Jaguar-God no "Creator", and no "God".

What do all these names have in common?

Generations upon generations of people, by the MILLIONS - didn't just "believe" in these Gods - but as Barak would say -they "KNEW" these Gods existed!

So - to me, to my mind, absent proof - that any one of these beings is MORE believable than any of the others - I choose to reject them ALL.

In truth - I'm only rejecting ONE more - than most people on this list. EVERYONE is an atheist - when it comes to OTHER man's religions - if it's different from their own!

All faiths KNOW that theirs is the "ONE TRUTH" - and all the other religions in the world - are FALSE.

I reject them, along with leprechauns, fairies, ghosts, demons, angels, spirits, devils, poltergists, doppelgangers, Santa Claus, trolls, gremlins, pixies and the like.

I submit that the proof of the existence of ANY of the gods or supernatural beings I mentioned - is EXACTLY the same.

In other words - ZERO!

Unless some one can demonstrate a LOGICAL reason to believe in one over the other - I'll put "God" "Thor" "Shiva" and the "Tooth Fairy" in the same category.

Some people - can believe in - what they WANT to be true.

I can not.


PS - Hawkeye - Why would a lion evolve looking the way it did - if it ate only plants - as the Bible says is true? Please!Secondly - for evolution to happen - you need death - something the Bible says didn't exist until Adam.Please! The Bible is in TOTAL contradiction to the fossil record - look up the order of events outlined in the book of Genesis.

With respect back at ya, , No Sir. My faith is based on a written document which I can see quite clearly and that document is truth. Christ said for God to sanctify us through his truth, and that his word is truth. I take that as fact because he said so. Nothing blind about believing the Bible. They even have the Bible in Braille.

BCBrian makes a good point. Why the Bible rather than the Koran or any other form of scripture? After all, even the bible lifts whole cloth from other religious texts.

http://www.pocm.info/

You believe the Bible is the One True Book. Based on reading the Bible.

In the same manner that an Muslim believes in Allah and Islam, from reading the Koran. What's the difference?

Good question, ... and what's the deal with these bears??

Ridiculous!

It would help if you'd provide citations. Hard to refute something if you don't provide your source, chapter/verse.

Any UFO (unidentified flying object) can't be explained, once it is, it becomes an IFO (identified flying object).

Because the Koran turns people into murderous fanatics, and the Bible has changed my life in ways only God and I know. (and even I only know what he has revealed to me.) The apostle Paul nailed it pretty good when he said this, "Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious:" (1Tim 1:13)

Coupled with, "Therefore, if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new." (2Cor 5:17)

By their fruits, ye shall know them. The Bible bears good fruit in men's lives as they yield to the Lord. The Koran bears rotten fruit.

And the Bible doesn't have it's own fair share of murderous fanatics?

Oh boy, here we go..........

Maybe the fossil record is wrong. It was put together by a man.

Such as?

Yep, man laid all those myriad layers of sediment over billions of years..... oh, wait.....

Rwandan Hutus, for starters.....

Who said it was over billions of years? Maybe it was as a result of a monsterous universal flood, and the sediment that settled as a reult of that cataclismic event. You don't know, and neither do the scientists. All they can do is speculate.

Right.... 'cause radio carbon dating is completely false, evidence of pollen records are wrong, the absolute LACK of evidence of any cataclysmic global flood is not glaring, the LACK of water available to create such an event is not glaring......

Yep, all that just isn't there.....

Just like the history of the flood parable didn't pre-exist the Old Testament by at least a thousand years and hasn't been tied directly to a Black Sea flood that did destroy an entire culture...... and from which flowed the parable as a record of THEIR "world" being destroyed.....

Right......

So the Bible told the government in Rwanda to kill the Hutus. The Bible doesn't sanction that. Sure in the Old Testament, God had the nation of Israel go into the land of Canaan and lay waste, but that land belonged to THEM.

Islam commands and condones the mass killing of Jews and Christians. The Bible does NOT condone the killing of Muslims. The Bible says we preach to them, and if they turn, good. And if they don't, God will deal with them in his time.

And all that passes as "Christianity" in this world is certainly not Christian, by any stretch of the imagination.

. . . . . . . . but hey! It's Monday now, and all the so-called Christians can go back to being "regular" folks until next Sunday's - - - religious debate. (rather than live it 24/7)

As you well know, it's all in the interpretation. Your interpretation says not to do such things; and the Hutus, for example, interpreted it in a way that told them TO do such things.

Religion, can be twisted by those holding the power over it, to do what they want.

You can disavow that "all that passes as Christianity is not Christian" all you want. The fact that it happens, and self-professing Christians do it, is proof enough that all religions have their crazies who will turn religion into a justification of their actions. Always has; always will. Because, simply, that's one of the great failings of religions, all of them.

Works for nearly all of them.

Well....speaking of floods....wasn't it your God who only spared Noah and his family and some animals and then took the lives of every living creature on the planet? Kind of qualifies for mass murderer status, doesn't it? Oh yeah, He did it because man was evil...I forgot the defense strategy for a moment.

This was not too long after Cain mudered his brother over some kind of jealousy thing, right? Heck, we had murder in the Bible when there were only about 5 people existing on the planet!!

The list of other accounts of murder and atrocities could cover 2 pages of bandwidth alone. Your God was kinda into taking out alot of innocent, first born, children as well, wasn't he?? If I were to believe in the infallibilty and inerrant line of reasoning, then I'd have evidence of a full blown confession,wouldn't I?

_________________________________

Derby Dude is a very bright man. He knew where this thread would eventually lead to. I'm blaming him!

Well, he's at least a co-conspirator or co-defendant,anyways!!!

So can atheism, as witness the Communists.

Once again: Every time you run across a situation involving mass murder, with tens of thousands to tens of millions of victims, you will find that the common thread is the State, not religion or a particular religion.

Religion is of course one of the tools that the State can and has used to commit mass murder; but it's certainly not the only one.

No denying that. Which underscores the paramount importance of maintaining the greatest degree of separation possible between church/religion and state/government, and of the very closely related and equally paramount importance of keeping each as small and weak as possible, removed as much as possible from lives of the people as possible.

Yup, NEARLY

But not for me. For me, it is a present reality.

And Isaac -- you have a religion all your own. It takes more faith to believe like you do than it does to believe the Bible. So, help yourself, cause that's all your God can do (you are your own God.)

And even as Christians are always accused of trying to force their "religion" on other folks, your crew is no different. I allow for it. Shucks, GOD allows for it, for now.

And thus, religion again scapegoats religion.

Believe as I do..... Because I'm right, and you're not because what I believe tells me so. Let us not look to the commonalities of our beliefs; let instead castigate, condemn, and even crusade against each other based upon only the differences....... And, of course, because my/your religion said that God told me/you so.....

Which is why I refute and rebuke religion.

I forced nothing shootist...I answered your specific question to me!

They are very different kinds of sedimentary deposits, describing a long series of ages of the earth. Far too many for a young earth.

So, if I was your father, and always told you to love your neighbor, and pray for those who persecute you, and then the first time someone flipped you the bird, you tied him up and tortured him to death, that's actually an example of you behaving in accordance with my instructions?

Well, that's true for government, but to include religion in that is contradictory, since the only way to keep religion out of the lives of people as much as possible is to empower government to bring that about with mass murder and the like, as we saw in the atheistic Soviet Union and Red China. Religion is an element of liberty. To restrain it is to restrain liberty, i.e., empower government. So you can now see the contradiction in you last sentence, yes?

I tried to follow this thread as best I could...for an educated blonde anyway...but wasnt the topic about death???

Silly Lady!!!!

You know how these things go. The first dozen posts where about death. Now we are just trying to convince people that my GOD is better than your GODDESS, my RELIGION is better than your RELIGION, and I have the ONLY TRUTH, and everything you believe is FALSE. I think I've summed it up pretty good.

Bob has indicted me for starting this thread. Wait till next Sunday when we discuss Bob's topic "Thou shall not covet thy neighbor's wife" with a bunch of horny men.

Started that way, it seems. Funny how things morph, ain't it?

I never said that, as a matter of fact, I said that I allow for your beliefs, and so does God.

And BTW, you also think you're right. I am NOT on a crusade, and so now, before the swords are drawn and the bullets fly, in the name of truth, , I'll do what I said . . . . allow you to have your beliefs.

And I don't even demand the same from you.

Death in the spiritual realm is eternal separation from God � unthinkable, intolerable for some, alluring and welcome (now) for others.

The 24 is the only place I know where you can start out with something innocous like holsters and end up talking about whether or not dogs go to heaven!

Doctor Howell,

IF there is a God ---- In some folks' minds.

Very true. There are sites where the moderators will quickly lock down a thread that veers, even momentarily, off the starting topic. I'm glad this isn't one of those sites.

My Pastor once refused to do a funeral for a Cat,only to change his mind when the pet owner offered a ten thousand dollar donation to the building fund. When the lady asked why he changed his mind. He said'Well at first you never said Fluffy was a Baptist".

Britt

I gotta tell ya...my life is so crazy that I cant even imagine trying to tell another what to/not to believe in. Good thing Jesus keeps fools and babies near the cross or i would be in a world of trouble. I was raised in STRICT denominational religion. I was crushed when I was banned for getting a divorce from an adulterous (and that's being kind) man. I hated God for a long time. But over the years, I have mellowed back into what I TRULY believe in. Noone can change that.

Now...subject of the thread:
i have seen more people die than you can shake a stick at. (Thats southern for a hellofalot). It seems to me that people fear the unknown. I know I do. After being diagnosed with lupus, I began pondering my own feelings about death. As my health declines, I think more and more about it. Im losing a kidney from the disease soon and have began getting my affairs in order should the unthinkable happen. Im scared, I gotta tell ya. Im scared for my kids....not so much for me. Death wold be a relief some days. But until that old grey horse comes riding...I will keep puttin my lipstick on everyday like nothing is going on.

Ken, leave to you to sum up the truth in one itty bitty sentence.

I came to the conclusion a long time ago that if spiritual life meant spending it with a Christian God I was out of here. I'd rather spend my spiritual life with the Goddess (my wife) or no one at all.

280 did that??? I had no idea!

WOW Kat, sorry to hear that. I hope everything works out for you one way or the other. I'd pray but I don't pray although some tell me it's okay for a Deist to pray for others.

NO!!!!!!!!!!!!! My first husband, of 17 years, my childrens father.

I'll keep you in my prayers NurseKat. You folks are true heroes in my eyes. I've lost two good friends within a week and a half. One was my pastor. I have yet to shed a tear for either of them even though I loved them both. They are with the Lord now and are in a better place than this world is. I am actually happy for them. They are with our Saviour,and it doesn't get any better than that. I may get a little down in the future when thinking back on things we did and then I may shed some tears, but I think they may be of the selfish kind.

Qtip
Soli Deo Gloria!

No.....280 and I, although now divorced, still carry on like nothing ever happened. We are likely to be old and grey still making date nights.
(Dont laugh..it works for us.

God's reputation suffers more at the hands of many who claim to be His than from His harshest critics.

Those who eventually enter into His presence will be mighty surprised to see who's there and who isn't. Even greater will be the surprise of those who expect Him to be their eternal landlord but find that they're paying rent to someone else.

I was 99.9% sure you didn't mean 280. I was just joking.

Ya, it is. Spiritual death.

Kat,

When I was 11 years old I was very sick,Renal failure over a period of a few weeks. Transplants were very new and experimental and dialysis was an extended death sentence.

The pastor from the local pentecostal church came with the elders of the church and prayed for me. I felt fire flood all over me but it didn't burn,from that moment on every renal test was normal, a couple of days later they didn't know what else to do with me so they sent me home,that was 35 years ago.

God is real and I will pray for you,may God bless you my sister.

Britt

My mother has lupus. Her attitude is much like yours, except for the lipstick. (She's not much of a lipstick person. Matter of fact, she wears real live Army boots, to brace weak ankles.)

Well, there's also the fact that she tends to ignore any instructions from the doctor that don't jive with her plans for the day. She understands that that practice will probably make her die sooner, but her perspective on the situation is that her time here is limited either way, and she'd much rather enjoy it than be miserable.

How does one feel fire flood all over them, Britt??

We used to hear "everybody wants to go to Heaven but nobody wants to die to get there."

Now I find that a lot of people just do not want to go there. Well, God ain't gonna force 'em.

Oh, come on, Isaac! Are you calling the man a liar. That's the best way he can think of to describe what cannot be perfectly put into words. My mother had the same exact experience when I was a kid, and she described it exactly like that, too. Diagnosed with cancer way back then, and still alive and well today, with no sign of it in all that time.

WOW! That is truly amazing! I believe that can happen, I really do.
My renal failure is not from primary renal disease, but from an aggressive form of lupus which has literally invaded both kidneys and my eyes. I have WAYYYY too much immune system, so much so that my body attacks its own tissue. ITs tough on the ole kidney beans. But Im telling you..I get a chemo therapy treatment 3 or 4 times per year and i just keep clicking right along. As long as the left kidney holds out..Im cool. It is affected but not as much as the right.
A mean ass southern woman is hard to kill!!

Have you tried high doses of fish oil, or any other alternative approaches?

Brian-

A good share of the "missing links" have been proven to be outright frauds or misinterpreted. The ubiquitous illustration in many of the biology texts we grew up with showing an amorphic blob of life, changing in stages through reptilian, early mammal, and finally to homo erectus was admitted to be a fraud years ago. Just a few examples of trying to put forth a dogma.

No, there is no consensus concerning the whole fossil record conflicting with Biblical accounts.

Good Monday morning all

Jim and the children have made solemn vow that I will be kept pristine should the time come that I can no longer do it for myself. (I know, I know...its the little things that comfort me. ) LOL

I'm definitely not fearful of death, and it's easy to die for Christ but more difficult to live for Him .... that would be a more appropriate question .... why is it so hard to live?

No, I leave it all to the oncologist...who is into alternative medications but says that my chemo will react with a lot of the herbal stuff.

That's the best I can do Bob,how did the bush feel when Moses saw it? Sorry but words are not always enough.

Britt

[quote=NurseKat]I gotta tell ya...my life is so crazy that I cant even imagine trying to tell another what to/not to believe in. Good thing Jesus keeps fools and babies near the cross or i would be in a world of trouble. I was raised in STRICT denominational religion. I was crushed when I was banned for getting a divorce from an adulterous (and that's being kind) man. I hated God for a long time. But over the years, I have mellowed back into what I TRULY believe in. Noone can change that.

Hey, Lady

Don't blame God for mans' laws. There is quite a difference.

The only thing I can remember from my biology text books when I was a kid that even remotely resembles what you're talking about was that illustration of how ontology recapitulates phylogeny. Is that what you are talking about?



You have to wonder, if all those species didn't have a common ancestor, why they start out looking almost identical. In fact all of them have gill slits at an early stage. In fish and amphibians, they become gills, but for the rest, they just fade away. Now why would a pig or a man need gill slits?

Oh, come on, Isaac! Are you calling the man a liar.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I asked how something like that is felt, Hawkeye. You read into it what you want but don't play games with me with nonsensical comments such as that.

NurseKat-

My wife's immune system is apparently bored too so decided on "a little sideline" called rheumatoid artheritis.

I can emphathize.

If I misinterpreted the intent of your question, I apologies.

God's laws were never even part of the equation. No blaming...just a lot of hurt from people I didnt expect.

Ever hear of The Crusaders?????Knights Templar????They were Christians unafraid of death.Death is not to be feared.The unknown is.If you have faith,the unknown is not feared.

About the only thing I can remember from what little I read of world history was a quote from some famous Roman leader. His words were "it seems strange to me that men should fear death, a necessary end, knowing that it will come when it will come." These guys were born to die; I was born to live forever with my Lord and God.

Doctor Howell,

Thanks. That was good.

Right on, Huntz!

If prayer heals, why doesn't God heal amputees?

God makes no promises concerning our life here on earth. His promise is eternal life with Him for all that accept His son, Jesus as their saviour. After all, God allowed him to be crucified on Calvarys' cruel cross for the sins of all. Too bad that so many people have chosen to turn their back to God and desire to spend eternity in Hell.

Prayer doesn't heal. God does, but not automatically, nor as an obligation.

But here are plenty of claims of God healing. But not one amputee? Ever? Surely there must be some worthy out there.

If prayer resulted in the regeneration of a lost limb, faith absent proof would disappear, and that's the kind of faith that pleases God the most. He will accept the Doubting Thomas variety (Thomas had to first place his hand inside Christ's wound after the resurrection before he would believe), but prefers the other.

As the son and grandson of amputees I have wondered the same thing. Or why doesn't He raise another body like that of Lazarus that has been dead for three days?

The answer is that Jesus and the Apostles performed gifts that were Signs,indisputable evidense to anyone other than a fool.
Healing today is an answer to prayer but it is not intended purely as a miraculous sign.

God chooses to perform miracles that give skeptics a little room to doubt. Even the story of my healing can be dismissed by a skeptic as a spontaneous remission,which are documented to occur now and then. I am impressed that my spontaneous remission came immediately after intercessory prayer as outlined in scripture in the New Testament book of James. Another man,being a skeptic still has enough room to attribute my miracle to something other than answered prayer. If God healed an amputee or raised the long dead,it would constitute a Sign and for the time being God has chosen not to act in that manner.

What is interesting is that even when He has performed miracles that are clearly signs,people have still refused to believe despite what they have seen with their own eyes.

God will not suspend your free will to believe or not,that is the summation of what I have written which I believe accurately reflects scripture and experience.

But I think it was a very good question.

Britt

I've noticed that too - God only "heals" in the way that any statistical analysis of spontaneous self-healing can happen to any animal studied. Fact is, even with mice - some mice with huge tumours have them vanish. When it happens to a mouse a scientist concludes he looking at what might be a very rare case of self-healing (lucky mouse - he might say to himself) - but when the same happens to a human - it's a miracle!

My Mom was one of those people - declared "terminal" due to an incurable bladder cancer on my 22nd birthday. The radiation hadn't worked. She was given a short time to live. Thinking she had "nothing to loose now" she went on a MEGA-vitamin regime I concocted for her after a lot of research in the medical library. The odds were almost infinitesimal it would work. She lived until 10 years ago. The Dr. (a Christian man) called my mother's case a "miracle". I think the 15 to 20 grams of Vitamin C every 24 hours might have changed the acid/base situation in her bladder - and at the (along with the other vitamins) boosted her immune system.

Fact is, with some humans, and any other mammal, in some rare cases - tumours do shrink and vanish.

God NEVER heals amputees, never re-grows eyes in people who've had them poked out, never heals decapitations, grows new kidneys in people who've lost them, - the list goes on and on. He never does what is scientifically "impossible". Hmmm - I wonder why?

Along the same lines - when an aircraft is in difficulty - and through monumental good luck, and pilot effort, and hundreds of hard-praying people - it lands safely - many will break into a chorus of "Hallelujah" and "Praise God" - and forever after refer to the time God "saved them".

People in planes that crash and kill everyone on board - never get to do that. I guess they (unlike the first bunch of people) were unworthy.

Even with the airplane example - ever notice how God never gets involved in saving people in airplanes - when the wings come off at high-altitude?

All this so-called healing is visceral only, wouldn't you agree?

Gibberish sounds good to fools who consider it wisdom.

Not sure what you mean by visceral,it has a number of definitions. Be more precise Councelor.

Britt

I couldn't agree with you more!!

Every time you call Isaac "counselor" I'm reminded of Robert Deniro in Cape Fear.

If there's proof, it not faith, so faith absent proof seems redundant.

faith (fth)
n.
Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence. See Synonyms at belief, trust.

A mere "deep down feeling" or a gut-feeling". The doctor in you really thought I was speaking of body organs!!! grin

Hawkeye, I just can't wait till you're an official "counselor"


At least I didn't say you reminded me of Deniro's role!!!

Exactly.

In the original, the word that's translated "faith" in the English Bible means something far different from what a boy defined as "believing what you know ain't so."

"Faith" is a deplorable "translation." Even worse are the crazy "meanings" that are so often ascribed to it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Imuck-IAjM0

I think that the Apostle Paul wrote it best and I can't say it any better.

Therefore we do not give up; even though our outer person is being destroyed, our inner person is being renewed day by day. For our momentary light affliction is producing for us an absolutely incomparable eternal weight of glory. So we we do not focus on what is seen, but on what is unseen; for what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal. 2 Corinthians 4: 16-18

Oh no Bob,what happened to me was not an emotional event. Albumin,is a protein in blood which is not supposed to leak into your urine. It only does so in large quantity when your kidneys are in some kind of serious trouble. My urine was full of the stuff for days and I was headed for dialysis,it was real.

I was healed at the moment of the prayers of the pastor and his elders. I felt it,but the diagnostic tests confirmed it. They kept me around a day or two in the hospital and finally let me go home because I wasn't sick anymore. In Systemic Patholgy,I learned that spontaneous remmissions like mine do occur in lab animals and humans. They are rare unexplained events. The skeptic is free to place my recovery in that category should he desire,but Bob,I was there. I know how those men prayed and how I was healed.

I would be glad for you to come to Alabama,we'll make it a deposition and you can ask me about it under oath. You are free to confirm the results with a polygraph if you like. Be a good way to meet you and take you hunting,I like you already.

Either way,I am telling the truth but I bet you know that much about me already. You are after all,a very good lawyer.

Britt

So a question for all of you atheists, agnostics, etc......What would it take for you to change your opinion on the subject?

Your God inviting me to a Barnes and Noble book signing might get me to thinking!

JGR

I think their hearts are so pride-hardened that only a mighty miracle from God would be the only thing that could cause them to change. Sorta like Saul.

Pray for 'em anyway, though.

As a former agnostic let me answer that by saying that all one really needs is a rational reason to make a single leap towards the idea of of God. It's really about living ones life with hope and optimism in the light of the "known" evidence, it's simply finding a reason to say "I believe".

Luke 16:19�31

Too many people get way overconcerned about our short lives here on earth. Lots don't even make it fifty years while others, such as my Dad, will last a hundred years or so.

Regardless of how long we are here on this planet, it does not even make a mark on what eternity will be. That's where Gods' plan comes in.

My dear wife of over fify years is now undergoing cancer treatments for the third time. I sure do not want to loose her but that decesion is for God to make. I and the rest of my family plus lots of friends and people we don't even know are praying for her. Perhaps the treatments she is taking now is a miracle straight from God. Time will tell.

To many people try to make a man out of God. That just does not work.

That's not the illustration. It was in the bio books circa the 60's. It had only about 5 steps beginning with some type of embryo IIRC, the last was modern man, and the one before was an ape. These were huge, presumptive steps, one to the other, the result of someone's imagination.

Gdv

Finite Man can not grasp the infinity of God.
Temporal Man can not grasp the eternity of God.
Impotent Man can not grasp the omnipotence of God.
Physical Man is not a template of spiritual God.
Man is less than God and can not equal God.

Quick question:
How many believe that "creation" was a one time event?

How many believe that "creation" is a continual and ongoing process?

"But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came. The other disciples therefore said unto him, we have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I should see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side [i.e., the spear wound that pierced his heart], I will not believe." - John XX, 24,25.

No, it wouldn't.

You've already scorned His greater invitation and provision to join Him for eternity.

I think this is the one you mean. It started with an ape, not an embryo.

One time event, as the science of physics is currently verifying.

(I know a couple of men who look like that one in the middle.....)

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Oh, but it would!!

Scorned wouldn't be a appropiate word or description,either. Doubting or questioning His power to grant or offer such would probably be fairer.

If creation was a one time event then how does the science of physics explain the creation of new stars and new galaxies in the universe?

All the matter/energy that the new stars are made from was created at the big bang instantaneously. Just as all the matter/energy that you used to build your house was created at the big bang. Isn't that called the law of conservation of matter and energy?

IOW, the distinction between creation and combination. Hydrogen and oxygen (e g) were created, then some of each was combined with some of the other to form water. Right?

Yep, energy cannot be created nor can it be destroyed. What's here is here, and will be forever.

Yep.

God to show up at my door and say 'Hey!' or something else concrete like that.

I believe we're many times more likely to have extraterrestrials have tea with Bigfoot and Nessie at Stonehenge before there is proof of God.

You are behind the times with respect to modern physics. All the evidence points to a point of creation before which nothing existed, not even space. So, apparently, both matter and energy (not to mention space itself) CAN be created ex nihilo, i.e., from nothing.

That is correct,everything came into being at a specific moment. Everything like space,matter,time,energy.

I got no problem with the big bang or Genesis 1:1.

Same,same.

Britt

If true Hawkeye, then would this mean that all living organisms are not a product of creation, but a product of some sort of re-combination of already existing matter and energy?

Not really,

First God makes building blocks,then he makes living things in an orderly fashion.Finally he makes our Dad and Mom.You know like it says in Genesis and the fossil record,same,same.

Cousin Britt

Barak-

No, that still is not the one, although this one is highly reminiscent of it. It did go from amorphic blob to man in five easy steps, although for sake of the argument here, this pretty much illustrates the same false dogma.

NurseKat, all previous dates or acquaintences to the contrary, the middle "guy" is not one of us.

Gdv

[/quote]God to show up at my door and say 'Hey!' or something else concrete like that. [/quote]

He did and much more...for you.

I dunno. I wrassled against one of the first guys, and his younger brother looked like the second one.

God made the lizards tails to regenerate every time! So yes he does replace "limbs"... it's just His choice .... it's good to still pray for it though ... all prayer to God is good.

There are two senses of the word creation. One is creatio ex nihilo, which happened in an instant, all at once, from nothing. The other is creatio ex materia, which happened within time, from matter previously created ex nihilo. God can do both. We can only do the latter. Since God made all the building blocks, he can also lay claim to the credit for creating everything there is, even those things we've created ex materia. He also created all life forms ex materia. We might one day be able to do that too, but we would still require the building blocks that he created ex nihilo.

Hawkeye, that makes much more sense, thanks.

It's amazing the turn these threads take.

It's amazing the turn these threads take.
________________________________________________

You mean Hawkeye making sense? grin

It is amazing. When discussing politics Issac makes perfect sense and Hawk sounds nutty to me, When discussing faith in God,it is the otherway around.

Only one thing is certain,either I'm the only sane one of the three or the only real nut.

Britt

...and as is obvious, with His creation revelation and even His Biblical revelation, so far above man is He that the concept is almost incomprehendable to those that do believe.

If'n yer lookin' fer an argeemint, ya dun come to the wrong place, pilgrim.

That's because you follow revealed religion and some of us (me) follow natural religion.

You will get to meet God at the Great White Throne judgement. You won't be alone but it will feel like it.

Thanks for the itenerary, Bigbuck!!

I guess what I do not understand is how anyone can look around the Physical World and deny a Creator.Life is so unique,complex and intertwined,I cannot believe anyone could think it is happenstance.There is nothing simple in any life form.It is unimagineable to us to comprehend The Almighty.Yet everything around us proves his existance.
I wonder how many here who deny God now will pray to him on their Death Bed?????If you have ever been in Combat,you know you have prayed.
I can not quote from The Bible,but I cannot deny what I know is self evident.

All, I hope.

Yes, there are no Episcopalians in fox holes. Or is that atheists?

But, I should warn you that for those who have a solid grounding in evolutionary biology, the complexity of life forms is more likely to dissuade them from a belief in a creator who created each species as they exist today. That's because had God wished to create species already fully adapted to their current environments, they would not need to be nearly so complex as they are. Most species are complex because of the tortuous road they've traveled on the evolutionary journey to where they presently are.

For example, the rabbit has a very complex way of acquiring nutrition from the food it eats. Rabbits eat vegetable matter, then excrete it, then eat it a second time. That is a needless complexity, since there are herbivores out there who already solve the digestion problem without having to re-consume their fecal matter. If rabbits don't do it their way, however, they will die of malnutrition, because they possess the digestive equipment appropriate for a meat eater, not an herbivore, informing us that its relatively recent ancestors were carnivorous.

. . . . . or else that is the way God created the thing in the first place.

Not a good proof of God designing each species as they presently are, though, as that digestive pattern doesn't exactly scream intelligent design. It works, and that's about all you can say about it.

Even with the airplane example - ever notice how God never gets involved in saving people in airplanes - when the wings come off at high-altitude?


Just goes to show you can't operate on a wing and a prayer........................ you need two wings!

Hi Derby; you're right and I think you used a good choice of words. I do follow a "revealed religion."

gdv

Where's the science in that?

So can you make a rabbit from scratch?

........yeah, you have to bring your own scratch.

We know that herbivores can be so designed as not to require the consumption of their feces. This seems to imply that rabbits were not designed by the same designer who made other such herbivores. To get more technical, most herbivores with high fiber diets have structures for digesting grasses at the beginning of the digestive tract, requiring only one pass. Rabbits only have those structures near the end, which is why they need to redigest their feces. This strongly suggests that a diet high in fiber was a late adaptation, and not designed from the beginning, or even early on, for it. I merely point this out because it is not always the case that a complexity is prima facie evidence for a designer, and can in fact be just the opposite.

So........you can't make one.......can ya?

Forgive my ignorance but I have to agree with that statement if in fact there is an eternity, which leads me to the question, Why did he even bother creating it in the first place if it is only a stepping stone on the way to eternal life. Why didn't he just make us the way he wanted in the first place? It seems silly that he would create humanity only to pick and choose those that he approves of and cast aside others . To my mind it seems somewhat perverse to create the masses of which he claims love for each and every individual person equally, yet gives them minds that respond to him in different ways, some accepting of him, others rejecting of him, some that never hear of him, meanwhile he's only tolerant to allow passage of those who adopt his vision.

I don't reject that there is a higher being, nor do I accept it as gospel either. So many religions, so many theories, how do you choose? I grew up with a grandfather as a preacher, fire and brimstone Sunday school teaching grandmother on the otherside, and did much time in church, knocked on Gods door many times and found no answers and no comfort, not that I'm uncomfortable, just don't know if I'll ever see the 'light' Even today I pray for others, really don't know who I'm praying to but hope someones listening. Kinda looking foreward to the day I die just to find out the answer. In the meantime I'm gonna enjoy what life offers within the means of my conscience,(it's a strict one) be good to my dogs, maybe even to people, but prefer dogs! If there are pearly gates, I'll be expecting a good conversation, even if I get turfed. I guess I have faith in something, just not sure what.

Not yet.

Of curse this whole argument is a good illustration of why there is no longer 'Christ at the campfire'. Is anyone's mind every changed? You certainly cannot use reason to convince someone of something that is taken on faith.

The arguments are interesting, but become less so when resorting to proofs like scripture which is itself not verifiable by external means.

My biggest worry is the sort of thinking that rejects logic, reason and science in favor of dogmatic belief. That way leads to book burning, luddism, inquisition and worse.

We laugh at the primitiveness of the middle easter societies, but that is exactly what you get under a society where religion holds sway over a secular form of government.

For me - I'd need to see something "Godly", you know, things like he was supposedly showing people 2000 years ago.

A bush popping into fire, rotting dead men coming back to life, a man turning to salt, a world where nothing died, a sea parting, an angel - that kind of thing.

Something "impossible".

Like an amputee growing new legs after being prayed on or after having hands layed on.

Or an airplane set gently down on a runway after it's wings fell off.

Or a world with no war, death and disease.

You know - something BIG.

Until then I remain a skeptic's skeptic - on all manner of things. I'm a "show me the money" kind of guy. A "prove it" person.

Like I said before, so far, there is as much proof there is a tooth fairy as there is proof there is a God.

One man's religion - is another man's myth.

Different people have different ways of looking at and understanding such things.

My own way is like this. I don't believe that eternity is an infinite amount of time. That simply doesn't make any sense to me. I'm reminded of Rita Rudner's amazement at a friend of hers who was in labor for 36 hours. "I can't imagine that," she said. "I don't even want to do something that feels good for 36 hours!"

Based on my experience here on Earth so far, I'm glad I'll probably die around age 70 or 80, if I manage to avoid those fast-moving semi trucks until then. I can easily imagine being thoroughly bored with life if I lived to 120 or 130, and feeling trapped.

Even if I have very little idea what I'm talking about, and it'd really take me 1000 years to get bored, how do you think I'd feel after a million years in Heaven? How about after hundreds of trillions of years? I'd be freakin' insane, and so would you.

No, I don't think eternity is an infinite amount of time. I think eternity is the opposite of time. Or, more rigorously, I think eternity is a congruential simultaneity of at least six dimensions and probably more.

Think of it this way. In each of our first three dimensions--length, width, height--you can at least theoretically move in either direction at whatever speed and to whatever distance you like, and back again. But in our fourth dimension--time--we are constrained to move in only one direction (forward) at only one rate (one second per second).

We're used to that constraint, because we've been captive to it quite literally since the beginning of time; but when you think about it it certainly seems like rather an arbitrary limitation. Why are we limited that way, and who's doing the limiting?

I think eternity amounts to the removal of that limitation: the opposite of time. It's a bit mind-bending, though, because if I'm right, and in eternity we'll have complete access to all our dimensions, then we'll end up not being able to move at all: moving implies being in one place at a certain time and then in a different place at a later time; but without any limited-access time-like dimension, the concept of time--and therefore of moving--has no meaning.

It's fun to think about when you've got nothing better to do.

Another thing that's fun is to find a Southern Baptist and holler, "God is a simultaneity!" and see what he does.

I have many pages yet to read in this thread, so probably many have already responded to this.

But, as someone who almost died a month ago, let me address the question.

I am not afraid of death. I know Whose I am and where I am going, and I know that it will be better than anything I have here.

That said, I don't want to die. Maybe I should say that I'm not ready to die. I don't want to leave my husband, my children, my grandchild and my sister on this earth without a wife, mother, grandmother or sister. I know how much they love me. I know how much it would deeply pain them to not have me in their lives anymore. (I am not boasting; I am simply being honest here.)

But I don't fear death itself. I hope it doesn't hurt when it happens, but that is my own human nature speaking. I can't think of anything more exciting than finally getting to bow down in the presence of my Savior.

Penny

Or vice versa.

Amen, brother: preach it!

bushrat,

God has no desire or reason to create robots. Man can do that with the material that God has supplied.

We are alloted some time here, no one knows for how long, and in that time we can make the choice as to whether or not we want to be accepted as Gods' children, joint heirs with Christ Jesus, or follow the devil, Satan. All that is required to become a child of God to realize the fact that we are born sinners and need a saviour. Then repent of our sins. That does not mean that we quit sinning but that we should begin sinning less and confess our sins to our Lord Jesus, not to some pope or any other man. It's between God and us. And we simply accept Jesus as our Lord and saviour. That is according to Gods' word, not mine.

Our time on earth is not when He chooses whether or not to accept us but for us to make the decision. God , I don't think, will force anyone to go to heaven as you can tell from what is said on this forum, there are many that just do not want anything to do with God. Intelligent men at that.

I pray daily for the unsaved but no man can make another accept Christ. That is his cross to bear. Heaven and hell are both real and permanent. No escape from hell and no one will want to leave heaven. Really, it's serious business. Think about your future.
Today may be the last one for many people, and then it is too late.

It's all very well to say that, but if you'll forgive me, I don't believe you.

First of all, I don't think you're as open-minded as all that. If you were to witness a burning bush, or Jesus raising the dead or parting a sea, I don't think you'd fall to your knees and gasp, "My Lord and my God!" I think you'd scratch your chin and say, "Hmm. Now how'd he do that? Obviously there's got to be a trick to it somewhere, just like there was when David Copperfield made the Statue of Liberty disappear!"

And on the other hand, I don't think you're as skeptical as all that. I'll bet you believe a lot of things that you've never seen proven. For example, you probably believe that the Apollo astronauts walked on the moon. You probably believe the Earth is round. You probably believe the Sun is a big ball of gas lit by the fusion of hydrogen into helium. You probably believe a 757 crashed into the Pentagon on 9/11/2001. But you accept all those things on faith, because none of them have been proven to you. (Probably not very many could be.)

Far be it from me to say what you must or must not believe: that's your business. But it is your business: your beliefs and lacks of belief are your own choices, not some involuntary prison you find yourself in because you're condemned to be less credulous than the common man.

Tod, it's not a hard life. It's the easiest life you could imagine. Jesus said, "...my yoke is easy and my burden is light." (Matthew 11:30) I know it seems as though it should be the opposite, but it's not.

His spirit within me makes me want to live like Him. No, not just want... I thirst for it... I hunger after it.


And what are all those things worth? Absolutely nothing. Our joy is not in possessions, but in the Lord.

Penny

He made us; we belong to Him. Doesn't He have the right to do with us as He will?


Human nature and free will (the free will to make bad choices as well as good ones) have existed since the beginning of man.


Why do you think that God has to justify His behavior to anyone? He created the universe and all that is in it. He makes the rules.

Penny

Not quite Barak.

For four decades or so - I TRIED to believe.

I mean, no man on earth could ever loved his parents more than I did. If I do anything to see them again, and never die, and live in paradise - with them - forever - I'd jump at the chance. But my mind can't suspend its disbelief and Christians, no matter how hard they try, can't answer many of the questions I've outlined.

To think that EVERY peer-reviewed paleontologist is wrong, to think animals were all created within days of man, to believe in a Noah, and a world-wide flood - when there's no evidence of such, to believe the races of man are a few thousand years old, and life on earth the same - I just can't suspend my logical mind enough to enable unquestioning faith to take it's place.

There's wishful thinking (faith) and then there is reality - and observable facts.

I need to see (or hear about) real evidence - before I'll believe in ANYTHING.

It a rare person who try to walk in those footsteps - so rare we remark on it.

"Sell your possessions and give to charity; make yourselves purses which do not wear out, an unfailing treasure in heaven, where no thief comes near, nor moth destroys." Luke 12:33

Scientists sent a delegate to tell God that He was no longer relevant.

"Oh!" God said, "Why's that?"

"Now we can create life in the laboratory."

"Wonderful! How do you do that?"

The scientist stooped and scooped-up a handful of dirt.

"no, no, no!" God said, "Use your own dirt!"

Just in case noone else has noticed..its now Tuesday (at least in Alabama) Should we change the title of this thread???? Im having a martini (gin of course) at midnight and listening to the thunder of disagreement....so Im captive...just thought we were two days past the title origin.

LOL

(I see Ken Howell is burning the midnight oil as well......)

It's not midnight yet where he is...

Penny

Correct! Ken is an ever present force no matter what time it is!!

So if he's with you when you're burning the midnight oil, then he's burning it too.

That makes sense to me... I think I need to go to bed!

Penny

Man says "Make it clear enough for me to understand, and I may accept it."

God says "Accept it, and I may make it clear enough for you to understand it."

God is Supreme � He has no need to prove Himself to anybody. His way will always prevail, no matter what Man may prefer. He'll grieve if you don't belong to Him, but His life won't lack as much as yours will.

Brian it sounds like you are trying to find faith, that is good.
You'd be surprised at the places you'll find a miracle. Sometimes we just over look them.

Pat

God, miracles, and Man's mind �

Carl torques a bolt on an engine to factory spec.
Or did his wrench do it?
Which wrench? His old springy one or his new digital one?
Or did that bolt get tight right all by itself?
Carl doesn't bother with torque specs on the bolts that hold his Adirondack lawn chair together.
Why not?

So does Carl exist?
Sheesh! How Man "thinks!"

Dennis Miller's mental image of a sumo wrestler inspecting his butt for cellulite pales in comparison to some of the contortions that I see some good people go to to perpetuate their biases.

It's 11:42 PM here � so off to "bed" (recliner) for me, too!

That and the contortions of a sumo wrestler are very good. Lovin' it. And thanks.

Very unlikely as many watched Jesus preach, heal the sick, make the invalids walk, and raise the dead and walked away unbelieving. In fact the Pharisees-perhaps the most religious of all-schemed to kill Lazerus also after Jesus raised him from the dead just to get rid of the evidence. And these were the people who knew the traditions of the OT which prophsied the coming of the Messiah. Those who reject God will not be convinced by any measure of miraculous signs and will rationalize them away.

I have to bow out when that sweetheart of a lady, Penny, starts jumping my butt.

She intimidates me!!

lol

I like being ornery and mischievous but around Penny,...it just ain't fun.

She makes me feel like being a 'good' person and all that crap.grin

He don't need to create robots, all he need do is take the sin/evil out of the world.

Why did God create sin/evil??

Sin/evil cannot exist without "free will". If everything is pre-ordained then one cannot be responsilbe for ones actions.

He did not create sin or evil,He created beings with the free will to choose their own path. It is then not His fault that people sinned,and still choose to sin today.

The good news is that He provided an cure to the sickness of sin that infects us all,Jesus.

Britt

Being a Christian doesn't require the belief in any of the above. I believe, in fact, that only the minority of Christians believe those things. Not everything in the Bible must be believed as literally true. For example, Jesus called the folks gathered on the mount "the salt of the earth," and "the light of the world." They were not literally that, but figuratively. Sometimes you look for the symbolic meaning behind the literal statement to find the truth in it.

That wasn't a command to sell all that you have and give to the poor. The simple message was that to sacrifice for the benefit of others, to any degree, is a worthy endeavor, and has eternal rewards attached. To do so to the max could, in a certain context, be even more worthy, but is far from a requirement.

You good folks step all over yourselves trying to sort it all out.

Why do I intimidate you? I certainly don't mean to... C'mon, Bob. You know you can disagree with me and I still love you.

The real thing is that you're such a gentleman that you don't like to publicly disagree with me. You're quite a guy.

We should have a phone conversation sometime...

Penny

Aw, c'mon. I enjoy "mischievous" as much as the next guy. I wouldn't want to quash that tendency in anyone...

Penny

Just tryin' to be helpful....but Christians are no better or worse than anyone else. The only good we have is Jesus for without Him we are plumb sorry.

Hawk, you are so right!!! Being a Christian is a RELATIONSHIP, not a religion. It is a relationship with God and His Son, Jesus Christ. It is the acceptance of Christ's atoning death on the cross for our salvation.

Everything else is just additional "stuff," legalism added by man, that confuses the issue.

God exists. He saved my life a month ago. I live to serve Him. He is the joy and happiness in my life.

Penny

Lots of us are glad he chose to keep you among us, Penny.

Me, too. I love you guys.

Penny

I had an Aunt who passed away several years ago. She was without a doubt the dearest person I've ever known.

When we were young and would get into some mischief at her house, she wouldn't yell or raise a hand. Instead she'd look at you with a smile and say, "now you're too good of a boy to be doing that, I'm disappointed in you".

The shame and guilt you felt because of how good she was hurt way worse than any whippin you might get.

That's why, I'd much rather feel Bart's, SteveNo's or Issac's venom than to feel your dissapointment.


lol

....darn good people.

It's isaac...like in your Bible!! Ya' big dummy!!

lol



Sorry bud.

The bad part is I proofread my posts and I still make numerous spelling and grammatical errors.

Just not my strong suit.

You know I was kidding, right trips?

If you knew what I was really called about a hundred times a day, you'd know a misspelling of my middle name doesn't bother me in the least.

lol

Yeah I know.

I prefer the more traditional CFB season spelling of Isuuc, if that helps you out any rrroae.

Okay... you've really got my number. That's how I handle the inmates in prison!

Penny

With or without pepper gas?

I can hear the Judge now, "Alright Carl, you've been convicted. Now since your a first timer, we'll give you the choice of 5 years hard labor, or we can call Penny in to tell you she's disappointed."

Carl-"Give me the 5 years, Boss."

lol

Okay guys take break. You will be all tuckered out when I post Bob's question next Sunday.

Keep your head down and your powder dry!!!

That's about it... Those guys would rather cut off their right arm than have me disappointed in them. For many of them, it's the first time anyone has actually cared about them, treated them decently, and respected them. They most certainly do not want to disappoint that person!

I had a guy from my class who was released on parole. He showed up for a few weeks at the ex-offender ministry that Barak and I do on Saturday evenings. He got two jobs and a place to live. It seemed to me that he had it made. But then he picked up a woman one evening, stole her purse and her car, and took off.

Of course, they caught him... parole violation (big time), back in the slammer. It took him probably a month before he could bring himself to come to the education area and look me in the face. He's still ashamed of what he did.

But some guys simply are happier inside where decisions are made for them... they've been in so long they're institutionalized.

Penny

"I cannot accept blind faith."

Everytime you drive in your car or fly on an airplane you "accept blind faith" that you will get where you want to go.

Maybe you do but I don't. It's the Law of Probablity, I'll get there. But I accept fate so what do I know.

I'm a electrical engineer & have had a life long interest in physics. The more I am involved with science the more I believe in a Creator. My Creator does not have a share, form, or gender. My Creator will be believed in 500 years or more from now. This Creator allowed man & various religions to exist & make their own decisions & mistakes. All major religions have a common theme that involves some thing similar to the Ten Commandments. Christ, Buddha, Mohammad, etc. were all faithful disciples of the Creator. Life after death, if it exists, is the dreams each of us have. Those that have committed crimes or other sins will know the mistakes they made & have to relive those mistakes constantly. There will be no day or night or seasons. It will be similar to falling into a Black Hole that will destroy you but takes all eternity to occur.

While one may clump Christ, Buddha, and Mohammed (and by implication all other religious or cult leaders) into a general amalgum of good-feeling universalism-we'll all get there, just by different paths-Christ explicitly and clearly nixed any possibility of that happening.

"I am the way, the truth, the light," and "no one comes to the Father but by me," are just a few of His teachings underscoring that reality.

As " physicist", and an engineer, who deals with the intransigent physical laws, how do you come to your rather ambiguous view of eternity?

It's interesting to note that among all the science disciplines, astro-physicists as a group, have shown a remarkable propensity to move from atheism, to deism, and then some on to Christianity. This has occured especially since the 80's and the inception of plasma physics and the general acceptance of The Big Bang theory of universal beginnings. Where, once it was dogma to believe that all there is was always here; it is now known and generally accepted that that is not true.

It's life, amigo.

Yep.

Seems to work either way.

Yes he is both the life and light but in John 14:6 he speaks to Timothy of life.

Thanks for showing me the light gents.