Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunting Rifles Montana Rifle Company 1999 action

7RM,

The box and follower on the left are correct for a 375H&H so what you see in the pic is what you want for your rifle. See the narrow channel on the left follower.....I loaded a 375 in this rifle box and follower and everything seemed fine.....I also had Jeff and Mike from MRC confirm through pics that this was for a 375.

Robert

Once again I guess you did not read the entire post. I did not only say Dakota's I also said Ruger and Winchester Model 70. All with " CRF " As for Dakota's it is as easy as picking up the phone and placing an order. Maybe that is hard for you to do down under. I also have a Dakota 76 that I had built from them when they were in bankruptcy. I put up serious money at that point and I didn't not only get a gun back i got a machine that works flawlessly.
What do you consider a resonable price? things that don't work or function correctly? If you are looking for a great little deal you should try a garage sale. You are still failing to remember when the gun went back to Montana the first time for the follower issue they didn't check anything. They just put a new follower in it and sent it right back out the door. The had it twice and the second time it was still wrong from MRC after speaking with Jeff ( which I have said before ) I was told that the wrong bolt stop, bolt ring, and spring were in that action. They never changed it when it got sent to them the first time.
Trust me I am not in the business of throwing away money.
Going back to Winchester or Ruger, you talk about price, between $500 - $800 for a Ruger or Winchester. Not much more than an MRC action and they just work.
You also say I am a vindictive person? In the states here we have a saying you "F*** with the bull you get the horns."

My thoughts as well.

Is there anyway you can find out who barreled up the action on your rifle? Because to me two different gun smiths across the country put in the wrong magazine box, spring and follower? too coincidental.
SO as far as your pics go MRC left the wrong parts in again. They didn't correct it the first time or second time. How many chances are they supposed to get? I think I was more than fair.

7RM,

The gentleman that I bought the rifle from was at least the 2nd owner. I know who he bought the rifle from and will try to determine who originally built the rifle. Also keep in mind that my bolt stop and extractor are also for a 375H&H so this action was originally sold as a 375 length action. It's not a case of simply placing the incorrect parts in the mag well.

One thing to note......I forgot in my earlier post but Mike stated that the followers had been re-designed...So the fact that your new follower looks like mine (the new 264WM) may be a good thing. Is the new follower as long as the mag box? If so, it might well be correct. If it doesn't work then let me know and I will send you my 375H&H to try......If it works you can keep it.

Robert

I can sympathize with the original poster because anyone who has spent the time and money messing around with the custom guntrade will eventually run into this sort of thing, in one way or another.

First and foremost,the fact that he "changed his mind" in going from a 7 RM to 375 H&H has absolutely NOTHING to do with the entire issue;it is, as we say in the law a "red herring",or an issue the other side to an argument tries to make important but which is, in fact, immaterial.This is akin to blaming victims for the "crime" imposed on them. The man paid for a 375;he should get what he paid for.To suggest otherwise is absurd.

Also, I don't blame him for cancelling the 270 order;after seeing how poorly the 375 was working,a person would be crazy to order another rifle built on the same action.That's like saying "....Hit me again..." I give custom makers one crack;if they don't get it right the first time, I never use them again.

Second,some "blame" should be attributed to the custom smith for not making certain that the rifle functions;OTOH,it is not the custom smiths job to serve as a QC man for Montana.It is Montana's job to see that the parts they provide for the Montana action are correct,fit the action properly,and perform their intended function.It is also not the custom smiths job to see to it that Montana provideed the right parts for the action,and that those parts "work" as intended.If Montana advertises and peddles a CRF then they should "work" when they leave the factory.If they do not,then Montana is selling an action that is not "fit" for a particular purpose and fails to meet commonly accepted legal standards of warranty as recognized in numerous jurisdictions. If they(Montana) are not paying attention to this, it is their fault,and should not be placed on the custom smith.

To suggest that the custom smith is entirely to blame, and that Montana is somehow exonerated for providing incorrect or ill-fitting parts that are soft,non-functional,and of improper design for the intended caliber,is the most convoluted thought process I have read on this thread so far.

All of the above having been said the REALITY is that a Montana action requires "tweaking" because as they come from Montana they are not quite up to par.You could say this for a M70 Classic,for example, as well,since it's possible to spend a tidy chunk of cash to get Mark Penrod or D'Arcy Echols to make them "right",so Montana's are not unique in this regard.One of the smiths I do business with has built quite a few rifles on Montana's, and he says they must be gone over,squared up,and checked for functioning.He routinely replaces the firing pin spring in them,telling me that the factory version is a bit "weak",as one example.The Montana actions on the Serengeti rifles owned by Britt and Mule Deer are not "factory original",either,as I have read that Serengeti employs a guy full time to make the Montana actions "right".This is figured in the cost of a Serengeti which I understand has a base price of about $5000(?).So, you can end up with a good rifle on a Montana action,but they do have to be gone over.

I have seen the Montana barrels chucked up in a lathe,and compared to a Kreiger.You could not run fast enough to give me a Montana barrel.I don't care how yours may shoot;I would not waste the time and money having one installed.It costs the same in time and labor to have a Kreiger or Hart installed as it does a Montana;I'd just as soon stick with the barrel having a great reputation for accuracy.

It is pretty apparent that the original poster took a hosing on this one,notwithstanding some of the ridiculous arguments I have seen posted here to the effect that he is somehow to "blame"for paying his money and failing to get a perfectly functional rifle.

No truer words have been said. Have experienced it myself and it is never fun when it happens to you.



This argument of yours I cannot understand? So if you agree to buy a Ford V6 car and park it in a garage so it is not used and 10 months later after an overseas trip change your mind and think you need more power and want a Ford V8. That's OK and the supplier should go ahead and replace the engine for nothing. That is your logic? I think some credit should be given to MRC for agreeing to help 7mmrem. It's unfortunate that it did not work out but then go back to your first point and remind yourself what you have let yourself in for.



In general I agree with you BobinNH. However, it is absolutely the responsibility of the gunsmith to protect his client 7mmrem. What if the action had faults that could have caused injury to the client? It is irresponsible not to at least do some check BEFORE he started work & report to his client any defects found. The fact that it was in a calibre that would indicate possible use as a DGR makes it even more irresponsible on the gunsmith's part not to check function.



Please point to where in my post(s) I suggested the custom smith is entirely to blame. My point to 7mmrem has been above all to be fair. Nowhere has 7mmrem acknowledged that his smith could be at fault. So with the heading on his post of "Buyer Beware" to be fair 7mmrem should name & shame his custom smith as well. As you have said he is partly to blame but of course not entirely.



There was plenty of information on this site from years ago & from Jack Belk on Accurate Reloading that the MRC action was wonderful in concept but was short changed in the manufacturing. However, it is acknowledged that with a competent gunsmith it can be made into the basis of a fine custom gun. What's the cost of an MRC action $450-$500 these days? In most cases given a competent smith they can be made to work and be functional. Be realistic and honest. Its the low price that sucks us in. It ain't going to be a Dakota, nor an Empire straight off the production line.



I agree with you but not because I saw it chucked up in a lathe but because I saw the bore with a Hawkeye borescope. Bullshit it was hand lapped! Based on my personal experience I would never use their barrels again but plenty here are very happy with theirs including our Mule Deer. Mine was a CM barrel if that made any difference but really its should not. Those that are happy with their barrels appear to have specified stainless. But to me not worth the risk.



Whether the original poster is to "blame" is not the issue. I believe if you want to be treated fairly then you should treat others the same way. I don't believe that has happened in this case. I don't believe that he has or wants to acknowledge that his changes of mind could have caused some administrative headaces at MRC. If he has been charged 2x for the one action and I presume the only way they can charge 2x without his consent is by credit card. Right? Call the credit card company & refute the charge. Simple. Why not do that instead of spitting the dummy on this forum.

What he said about using this post as a "tool" just sounds suspicious to me. The feed issues could be fixed by any competent gunsmith. The defective part could have been swapped. And he could have stopped getting charged 2x by calling his credit card company. Perhaps there is a hidden agenda here?

Regards
JohnT

I've got a 325WSM on a MRC action,built by Randy Selby and mine is a problem free and a very RELIABLE and a whole bunch of fun to shoot.200gr. Accubonds make critters die very fast.

Cars? Engines? Unless I missed something in the story, he was wanting to build a gun. But in using your references it would be more like wanting to build a custom car and ordering a crate V6 engine for it. After it arrives, you decide you need a V8 and make the contact to return the smaller engine. And who said anything about wanting it free? The problem is they put V6 pistons in his V8 and didn't have sense enough to figure out what was wrong.

To me it isn't about the product, its the service. Mistakes happen, it's when I get grief from the people and have to fight to get thing 'fixed' or money back that I have a problem.

7remmag
Sorry to hear of your troubles.

My .375 Weatherby Montana barreled action had feeding problems after being finished. I took it to another gunsmith who replaced the magazine spring with one from Brownells and also windowed the magazine box. This fixed the problem and I am happy now. I did not consider this a big deal.

I also had a Williams extractor installed, and 8/40 scope mount screws when it was built.

JohnT: Had I known my post would inspire you so much,I likely would not have commented at all. I did not direct my comments to you,but perhaps you felt that need to respond for reasons I do not understand.

That said,your analogy of exchanging a truck and comparing it to exchanging a rifle action,is a poor one.What,precisely, is the nexus between his decision to exchange the first action,and the faulty action he later received. By your logic, it can be said that if a customer returns an item,the company is perfectly justified in replacing it with something that does not work...properly..and the faulty item is that darned customers'fault for returning it in the first place I really have no idea what the consumer laws are "Down Under",but I can assure you, that dog does hunt "here" I'm afraid that I do not understand where you are coming from here;nor ,frankly,am I interested in finding out..

Second, I have had enough top-end custom rifles built by "known" makers to understand fully what is,and is not,expected of them.Generally I have been happy,but there have been issues.

Third,I don't know who Jack Belk is, nor do I care since I do not need him to tell me about Montana actions,or any others for that matter.

If there was a safety issue,and someone got hurt,they'd all be sued.Who would bear the brunt of liability depends entirely upon the "facts" of the case.

What I am trying desperately to understand, is, what part of "IT DID NOT WORK" is it that you don't understand? I agree the gunsmith SHOULD have checked function.OTOH the damn things should WORK and have the CORRECT parts when it leaves Montana.This is so basic and fundamental to me that I can't understand any contrary view.

But then again a lot of gun building today is "form" over "substance",a lot of "sizzle" but no "steak".I will bet that at LEAST 50% of the rifles "custom built" today are not tested reliably for function before they leave the maker.So you and I are in agreement there.

Lastly(thank God)I doubt there is an "agenda"; the guy wanted to build a rifle that WORKED.He PAID for it.He depended on two entities,Montana and the custom maker, to deliver a properly functioning rifle. He DID NOT get it.Agenda? You bet there's an AGENDA.Fix the damn thing and make it RIGHT.

Personally, I'd tear the rifle apart for salvage,start all over again with a GOOD action,and chalk it up to experience.I would not care who fixed it at this point; I would never trust the thing.And yes I have done that when what I paid good money for was a POS.

Apparently,today,the custom gun industry has deteriorated to the point where even the expenditure of $3-4k does assure reliable function.

I'll just toss in my experience. I have an MRC 99 short action for my .257 Bob attached to a Lilja #2. Order it in March IIRC with an estimated delivery in Sept. Called in Sept and they said 30 more days. Called in 30 more days and they asked if I was OK with the Moly action and a stainless bolt or it would be another 90 days so I said fine. Action is pretty good, very smooth and solid and the trigger is a nice 3lbs out of the box but I still don't have it feeding right. Usually the first three are fine but the last one is the problem. I'll send it to the smith after deer season and see what he can do.

All in all I like it and I enjoyed building my first custom but if you're taking something like an essentially production action and can't deliver it in seven months exactly as order you're not much of a company. If I had to do it again I'd buy a Kimber Montana in .257.

I have a MCR 1999 action with one of their barrels in a very nice Serengeti stock. From the get go this rig was a big disappointment. 2" groups, this in a .257R This project was not cheap. I am not happy. I thought to have it rebarrelled. Took the rifle to a local gunsmith who said the action had so much "slop" in the way the bolt locked up in the reciever that he didn't want to take responsibility for good results. I sent the action back to MCR who promply returned the action saying there was nothing wrong with it. I finally got my smith convinced to go ahead with the rebarrel job. but he is not happy about it. After the rebarrel job I'll have close to $3500 in this project. Stay tuned, I may have a .257 for sale cheap.

I bought my LH CM short action (358) through the Charter Issue program many years ago. Back then you could make-up your own SN, I chose my initials and purchase year. I had them polish the action inside and out, square it, attach one of their barrels, lapped it and cut in a recess crown. The action is tighter and smoother than the Model 70 I have. Before they blued it they sent it across town for Serengetti to stock it and glass bed it, then after that was done, Serengetti sent it back to MRC for the final matte blue job. My gun is excellent in fit and finish, shoots MOA with my handloads and feeds and ejects with out a problem. One of the nicest rifles in my safe.
Both companies kept me informed as to the progress and even sent pic's during the build job.
Sorry to hear about the problems others are having with MRC, but I can only tell you about the good service and great rifle I got from them.

Thanks alot I appreciate it. I will keep you posted if needed.
thanks for the help

That's 100% correct. To me it looks like John T from down under likes to just pick and choose what he would like to comment about and does not fully read anything.
Again to him I guess these are great business practices. Maybe in Australia but not here.

Apparently we "mutually" inspire each other.



Not exchange truck. Just change engine. He wanted bits of the internal changed. (thought it was a pretty good analogy). After 10 months "down under" they would tell you to "F off you sheila" ("sheila" means girl) . Look I know USA is the ultimate land for customer service. But here if you just change your mind forget it. For all we know the 1st action may have been OK.




Thanks for sharing.



Jack was a very active member of the American Custom Gunmakers Guild did very nice work who I believe fell on hard times. He was the presenter of their video on custom guns. He did all of us a great service by throughly examining the MRC1999 and giving us a detailed account of the good, the bad and the ugly. I am obviously not as knowlegeable as you as I like to learn from those that know more than me and their actual experiences. BTW BobinNH how many MRC actions do you own or have owned? Have you dealt with MRC personally?



Again thanks for sharing.



The part where "it did not work" could be changed to "it can be fixed" without a lot of trouble.



I wouldn't know. But its pretty simple to ask them or tell them that you want it tested. But I also recognise that I am part of the problem. Often we want something done quickly or less expensively than the gunsmith we know we should use. Most times its OK but sometimes it bites us in the bum! 7mmrem should consider bum duly bitten.



Don't say that I was enjoying our exchange of ideas . Which is precisely what he should do and not spit the dummy. 7mmrem did say he had a Dakota built so he probably wanted a rifle like a Dakota but for substantially cheaper. Fair enough too why not. There are rare exceptions but most times you get what you pay for. He may have to pay a bit more but I am sure his MRC will be quite serviceable once fixed by a good gunsmith.




Everyone is different but I don't believe that its a big deal to fix and maybe he should get a second opinion from another gunsmith.



Both you and I look at this from the point of view of the customer. But from the gunmaker side $3k definitely and maybe $4k is probably at the borderline of where you can make a living if nothing goes wrong! (And your customer does not change his mind - sorry I couldn't resist ) . Let's be realistic therefore that even at that price range we are taking a risk that things don't turn out the way we want. But with patience & perseverance we can get a good outcome.

Regards,
JohnT

John: The only thing I will say,is, I have as much personal experience with Montana actions as I want.This includes looking them over several times at my gunsmiths' shop,and shooting a friends 375 H&H,which BTW,works and shoots well,after it was "tweaked" and barreled by my smith.

After speaking with my gunsmith about them,and considering the over-all cost of a custom rifle;and hearing a few "horror stories" such as 7 Rem Mag experienced,I concluded long ago that I did not want one.

Montana's are,I understand, cast at the Ruger plant; I would rather have a Ruger Hawkeye than a Montana. At least I know the Hawkeye will work.

I'm unlikely to "change my mind" either;could result in getting a lousy action,and I would, of course,be to blame....

Well, I try my hardest not to respond to some of these but this one I think I have to.

For everyone who has had a problem in the past before I took over, I can't really do a whole lot about that. If I can make it up to people who have a bad experience I will.

Steelhead, you are an example of something that happened from someone who is no longer here and I have offered to make it up to you if you should ever look at us again.

If anyone else is in the same scenerio, all you would have had to do is call me and we could talk about it like men, and fix the issue, not get on a website and do this?

As far as the original poster, well Steve you just can't please everyone. But since you are so inclined to tell your side I think it is only fair that we tell ours?

There was an action ordered for a 7mm Rem Mag, that was shipped to a gunsmith. The rifle came back to us from you after it had gone to your gunsmith because as we were told there was an issue with your follower. The rifle came in and since we had just changed our follower design we put a new one in and sent it back. I was never told of any other issues other than it needed a different follower. Then we get an email about the ejector not working. When I recieved the pictures of the ejector there is NO DOUBT whatsoever about how it happened. Someone had taken the extractor, bolt stop and extractor ring off the bolt and then put the bolt back into the receiver. Then not understanding the functions of the action tried to pull the bolt out of the receiver. Well without the extractor ring on the bolt the ejector will pop up into the slot on the bolt, keeping the bolt from coming out of the receiver. The only way you can get that out is by pushing the ejctor down as you pull the bolt back. But without knowing this someone hammered it out which is exactly how the ejector got bent and looks. When I explained this, I was told about the feeding issues, which was the FIRST time that I had been told there was a problem with that. Then I was told that the order was supposed to have been changed to a 375 H & H, but NOWHERE is there any confirmation of that. There are NO notes, there is NOTHING on the order, No Fax, No email, NOTHING. So the action had been shipped to your gunsmith as a 7mm rem mag set up and it was built into a 375 H & H, well at this point I offered to change out the parts to make it work as a 375 H&H properly and was told no thanks, that you would rather do your smear campaign and call the BBB, and go through the extent that you have on here and other forums.

Well I can't do anything about your experience, it happened and I wish that it could have been taken care of differently. Would I still exchange the parts out, you bet, not a problem.

Well there is always two sides to story.

As to the gentleman who said he knows my dad and that my dad told him that he taught Dan Lilja everything he knows...? Are you kidding me? My dad and Dan are good friends and Dan has taught my dad a lot. You probably heard it the other way around and and mistook what he was saying or he misspoke what he meant or it was a joke of some sort. I think that if any of you called either of them they would tell you the same thing, they are friends and they help each other out when they need it. As are all the barrel manufacturers.
I'm not going to try and go into everything here, but please, if you have an issue call me up and we can talk about it. Some of the guys on here that have valid complaints have called me up and we dissused them and if we fixed them great if not we did what we could do to make it right. One thing my dad taught me was that sometimes you have to swallow your pride and understand that you don't know everything and mistakes happen, maybe you need to learn that? (oh and yes I can get a little hot-headed, but after losing my daughter this summer I have learned to look at priorities a little different, it really doesn't do me any good to get mad at people, things happen and you just have to live with it).

Well I hope I have explained some things here and I am always open to phone calls and even suggestions.
God bless.
Jeff

PS. I just spoke to your gunsmith (who is a good guy by the way) and he is on the same page as I am. So I think that a lot of this may be either fabricated or just trying to pit us against each other?