Home Forums Hunting & Shooting AR and Tactical Rifles Effectiveness of the 223 caliber for combat

BOTH!

Duuude . . . . .

You're my hero . . . .

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Its a very accurate portrayal . . .

"There you have it. In the end, it is clear to any open minded inquirer that the Mosin Nagant is the most superior weapon of all time, but the AR and the AK come out as a draw when compared side by side. "

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the US has been behind the world when it came to the urban combat rifle. The nazis and the reds figured it out after stalingrad. hence the MP43 and the AK47. mild 7-8mm short bbl, durable full auto. The US still kept a full powered centerfire till the AR-15 and then missed the boat by making a 20" barreled varmint rifle.
you want to know why the AK is still used in urban warefare? becasue thats what it was designed to do. the bombed out shelled cities dont change. streets are still streets and building are still buildings.
having a 3000 MV 62 gr. bullet in a MOUT situation is about as usefull as having a 2200 MV 150 gr 30 cal in a sniper situation.
The US needs to look at whats needed for city fighting and equip the fighters with that. when in a desert enviro eqip for that. this whole ONENESS BS doesnt work. It didnt for McNamara and it doesnt now. diferent situations require different equipment.
I'll take a M16A2 and day if im fighting in the woods of Bosnia but if your going to drop me a the mud citys of north africa i want a 450 RPM 7-8mm round at 2200-2300 MV.
wait till we get into Pakistans mountains, youll see the 5.56 shine again because shots are going to be from hillside to hill side.

While the 5.56 may not be optimal, it sure has accounted for a boat load of dead bodies.
I could have easily bought a different caliber upper yesterday, in 6.8 or some other flavor.
Since I have, er, a few boxes of 5.56 around, and would have to start from scratch with any other caliber, I am staying with what I know, and what I have.

Lewis,

I did not see this till this morning when re reading the posts.

BTW, who is this "hitnrun" guy?

Anyways,

Are you looking for police missions, ep, psd, static? I literally know nothing about the Dyn police advisor gigs. I know a number of guys that are working them but I have no firsthand experience.

I am not sure of what help I can be but let me know what you want.

guy is some child on Christmas vacation. happens to all the boards this time of year.

Police missions I have covered DYNCORP,CPI,EULEX I have paper in to all.
Looking for static security,not really convoy security.

Though you or Ryan might have a POC with some of the small players or NGO's
Big players like BW,CACI,G4,SOC-SMG,KBR I know about.
With TCN's taking over the market it is getting harder to find openings unless you know someone.

Not in that business and the people I know who were got out already. Sorry.

An expert is some one who is 25 miles from home.This is why everyone on internet is an expert. That being said, both platforms are effective in the conditions they were designed for.. both platforms can also be effective in the alternate conditions in the hands of one who understands the capabiltites and limitations of each.

Here's a question to the guys on here who have been there and done that. Say you have an ar-15 with 16" tube, what would be a good round for home defense and SHTF scenarios?

50-55 grain Vmax factory ammo.

planemech, tried to find any of that lately? it really works great on varments.

V-max doesn't have sufficient penetration through various common barriers to provide consistent performance according to FBI tests. Save it for prairie dogs.

Yes, that's the point pabucktail. It won't shoot through cars, solid oak doors etc. We aren't talking about armored combat troops in clay brick buildings. The question was for home self defense and that means terminal ballistics. The Vmax or TAP ammo which is loaded with V max ammo is so the bullets do NOT over penetrate. The issue with FMJ 5.56 is not penetration but fragmentation, as in it doesn't always do so at range. The .223 ammo that has the best on unarmored person terminal wounds happens to be varmint ammo. It's also the least likely to go into places you don't want it. Another reason a shotgun is such a good home defense weapon. 5.56/.223 will penetrate a whole bunch of stuff like walls, window glass, home doors, car doors and such. So much so it'd amaze the armchair commandos.

Jimmyp have you tired to find any .223-5.56 around? It's all in demand but the varmint Vmax is most likely to be found over mil surp or tactical ammo.

Well i just bought 500rds or American Eagle XM193 and a box of Federal's 40gr ballistic tip varmint load, which i was gonna sight in for coyote's but may save some for home defense. The case of 500 XM193's went for 219 dollars, i thought that was not too bad

Sorry, but .223 VMax bullets do not meet FBI ballistics requirements. The bullet fragments easily, yes, but the fragmentation occurs too rapidly to allow adequate penetration. Furthermore, if the person you're defending your home against is wearing durable clothing such as a leather or canvas jacket, the bullet will begin fragmenting before it even reaches the skin. This will drastically reduce the terminal effect of the bullet.

The rapid fragmentation of VMax and other varmint bullets is intended to be destructive on animals much smaller than a human being. If you are planning to shoot human beings with your .223 carbine, it's best to use ammunition designed for use on human beings. If you're really all that set on bullets that fragment, get some Hornady TAP ammo, which DOES meet FBI criteria.



You apparently aren't all that familiar with the terminal ballistics literature yourself. Dr. Gary Roberts published a landmark paper in Police Marksman almost a decade and a half ago that irrefutably demonstrated that .223 64 gr Power Point bullets were "safer" than 00 buckshot and JHP handgun bullets when fired inside a house of typical construction. Both buckshot and handgun bullets will penetrate much deeper into a gelatin block on the other side of a sheetrock/2x4 wall than the .223 JSP round will. When I read that paper, I was skeptical enough to test it myself and confirmed Roberts' findings. Furthermore, I tested 12-gauge birdshot and found it to be as destructive as buckshot at home defense distances. Numerous other ballisticians have reached the same conclusions, which is why we have excellent "entry" .223 rounds such as the Hornady 55 gr TAP.

Ummm, isn't TAP ammo loaded with V-max bullets???

I just love all the crazy over the 5.56 and .223. Boys and girls this is a rifle and we are talking 3200 FPS velocities. Home D is up close and personal. A canvas jacket is proof against a 55 grain .223 bullet? Let's get real here for a moment. This isn't combat nor are we shooting through walls or cars to get at a bad guy. People can talk all they want I don't think anyone would want to be on the receiving end of the 55 grain vmax, canvas coat or not. Having seen what one of those does to coyotes I'd not want that grenade going off in me.

Some TAP ammo has TAP specific bullets, the heavies for example- the 75 grain stuff. There are a couple different TAP specific bullets. The 55 grain is as far as can be determined the Vmax bullet and it only penetrates some 8" in gelatin tests with major fragmentation from the data I was able to find in a web search. Ironically what one wants in non Geneva Convention home defense situations.

Maybe someone else knows for sure if the 55 grain TAP bullet is a V-max or not. I hardly think we need TSX's, partitions or armor piercing ammo for home defense ammo. Call me crazy but I have found that the 5.56 will kill things like people and deer, coyotes etc. I know that's a radical position.

The 60 gr TAP or V-max or Ninja bullet is what passed the FBI tests and it retained 28 grs, sounds like a plastic tipped varmint bullet to me.

energizer bunny post...anyone ever volunteer to be shot with a 223 to prove how ineffective they are yet? Even at say 1000 yards?

Hi Jeff!

Nice to see you here again . . . .

You coming back soon?

(Sorry, it like homecoming, this thread WILL NEVER DIE!).

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