Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Europe Black powder?

It has been clarified by a indepent institution DEVA (like SAAMI in US) that the energy requirements and other rules in german hunting law only pertain cartridges for rifles.

I will check into this.

Is true that German hunters are allowed to own and use handguns for blood trail search?

It is true, that german hunters are allowed handguns. Two. More possible with justification of need.

Handguns in hunting are mostly used to dispatch furbearers in traps. Revolver in .22 LR or .22 Magnum is the usual choice.

The other type is mostly a 9mm, .38 Special, .357 Magnum pistol/revolver, intended for the double task of dispatch a big game animal and self protection - and mostly stays at home.

General consensus among dog handlers that regularly follow up wounded game is a short rifle of reliable make in a potent caliber/bullet (Mauser 98/8x57IS mostly) and a good knife.

That said, I have a Colt Anaconda .44 Magnum that I sometimes carry. Not because it is more suitable than my preferred Marlin .45-70, rather when I am on road trips not anticipating any hunting but follow ups for hunters.

Example: We go to visit our folks with the family. Our dogs of course come with us. So I throw my belt in the pack. My wife does not notice. But I have Anaconda, knife, ammo, dog (all I need) when a friend calls.

Will probably play out like this come Easter again.

In Sweden it is very simple when it comes to black powder... It is simply not legal to use for hunting and neither is muzzle loaders. This was decided in the 1930's (1938 I think) when the Government wanted two things - have some kind of control over who was allowed to hunt (licenses issued for legal hunting firearms) and to get rid of all the unsafe old ML's that were laying around. Pyrodex and 777 etc are legal to use (so far - it might change) in cartridge guns. For those of us who shoots BP and ML's this is simply not fun!
Fore cartridge guns there are energy and bullet weight requirements that must be met.
//K9

AKJeff,

Germany has to offer much. I am located 50 miles north east of Berlin with access to forests with great hunting opportunities for roe deer, red deer, wild boar, fallow deer and even mufflon sheep.
Depending on season, mixed bag hunts can be arranged. Unless after trophy red stag, prices are moderate, by my way of thinking.
Unbeatable is the combination of hunting in one of the best regions in Germany with visiting Berlin, for historic and modern sight seeing.

cmg,

What would a "classic" or "traditional" German hunt consist of, ie game, method of hunting, etc....? What time of year do most hunts take place? Is a mixed bag "fur & feather" type hunt possible, for a drilling fan?

Thanks,

Jeff

Muzzleloaders illegal ??? That would be the revolution here ...

In fact rifled barrels muzzle loaders you can't own without authorization but ... we don't care ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ayr8K4Ums2M&feature=related

Oops, better elaborate a bit!

Muzzleloaders are legal to own and fire here but there are a few hickups - one of them is the no hunting part ...

Any gun made after 1890 is subject to our licensing system. Any cartridge gun is that as well (no matter when it was produced).

This means that you can own and fire fx an Enfield made in 1853 without any kind of permit but not a modern made copy of the same gun.

To be able to get a license for your reproduction gun you need to be part of a club/association that shoots black powder. You have to provide evidence of this to the police when applying for the license. Kind of idiotic, right.....

The next problem is the classification of black powder as an explosive and the rules about its storage. They are hard enough that they are almost impossible to comply for normal people..

Easy to be a shoooter of muzzleloaders here? No way!

//K9

Here the rules about storage aren't complicated as long as you own less than 2 kilos.

You may own and wear ML rifle reproductions (and cannons too ...) without authorization IF 1) you use them only for traditional folk events, including blank shooting 2) barrels aren't rifled.

In facts most of our barrels are rifled but we really don't care about. Why should we respect laws that are stupid ?

In France the storage rules are not really complicated (2kg max theorically) you can buy Swiss and French BP; Black poxder hunting is legal but not done a lot but BP target shooting is doing well in France even in international competition. We also have SASS chapter where shooters use BP.

We had this discussion about blackpowder in Germany before on the Hunting Related Gun Laws thread in April 09. I'll repost my two comments below. First let me add that I am a 30+ year life member of the US National Muzzle Loading Rifle Association and the newer Contemporary Longrifle Association. I brought 1 finished BP rifle and 4 in various phases of completion. Here are my old posts. You can go to the other thread to see the whole discussion. Nobody ever came back to say I was wrong. I would verify it with the DJV if I spoke better German but I don't--

Post 1:Re: Germany

I understand that hunting with muzzleloaders is not allowed for cloven-hooved game because of the Joule requirement--but I don't read German and find many "accepted truths" to be wrong. My local DJV range does not allow muzzleloading guns for practice either.

I did the training and testing for an explosives permit last week. The explosives law controls buying and storing blackpowder and smokeless and is required for reloading. The Germans allow classes in English for US Forces personnel. The German gunmaker & hunter teaching the course is from another German state and also said no muzzleloaders for roe deer/big game.

Bow hunting is not allowed in Germany but I understand is legal in France.

Post 2: Re: Germany and Muzzleloaders.

"...maybe your instructor can show you where it is written..." And there's the controversy, bucktales.

Section V of the German hunting law does not restrict blackpowder in either cartridge guns or muzzleloaders. The law doesn't say modern guns but establishes energy requirements for rifle cartidges (buechsenpatronen).

The only thing I can find turning lack of restriction into authorization is a website http://www.shootoff.de that says the German Hunters Association (DJV) asked the German Research and Testing Institute for Hunting and Sporting Weapons (DEVA) to clarify the issue. DEVA supposedly told the DJV in a March 2007 letter the joule values only applies to rifle cartridge gun. No surprise, that's what the law says.

Oddly, the DJV website does not mention it and a search of their website does not even the find the word "schwarzpulver" (blackpowder).

I thought I'd check the money side of the issue--Frankonia's current catalog does not sell "modern" inlines, sabots, and such. They do offer archery equipment and crossbows that are not allowed in hunting.

I also noted that pistols are not allowed for "hunting" but any pistol carried for a finishing shot must meet a joule limit. Hard to believe the writer's of the law would fail to address energy requirements for a complete class of authorized hunting weapons.

My belief is very few German hunters care about muzzleloaders. They don't have an extra season to motivate them to get into blackpowder. We are also dealing with different sets of law. The hunting, weapons, and explosives laws administered by different government agencies. The German hunting license covers guns in great detail but not muzzleloading guns. Single shot muzzleloaders are not restricted by the weapons law, but training and another special license is required to buy and store blackpowder.

Anyway, I hope I'm wrong and someone can come up on the forum and give a solid reference for legally shooting blackpowder here. I think it will continue to happen occasionally anyway--the German hunter must know the hunting rights holder to hunt and it will boil down to a matter of trust between the involved hunters in the meantime.

***Back to 11 Aug: Just a reminder that the German Explosives Law requires a person possessing blackpowder to hold an "explosives license." Some shooters get one for reloading, but most hunters don't bother. That's how the German's control muzzleloaders--only licensed people and shooting clubs can possess the blackpowder. I would go to a country that specifically authorizes blackpowder hunting and carry a copy of that authorization with me. I would also verify the legal handling requirements for blackpowder as well as my rifle.

Marseille...
Who in France actually follows the letter of the law? From what little I have seen there are more weapons floating around than declared.
And the best ones are in glass cases marked historical value.