Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Africa Penetration on african plains game with the NP and the Swift-A-Frames

Very intersting discussion on the effectiveness of the 165 gr. TSX out of the '06 on african plains game. To sum up, apparently it can be relied upon to exit and leave a blood trail.
My question is how about the performance of the Nosler Partions sand the Swift-A-Frames when it comes to their 180-200 gr. bullets out of the 30'06. Can they be relied upon to exit also on such game from that cartriage ? E

We( my wife and I) have successfully used the .30-06 with TSXs in 165 and 180 gr. and The Swift A-Frame in 165 gr. on African PG..
As often as not, the TSXs would exit...The A-Frame was impressive on that game in this carrtridge, and typically did NOT exit.
I would take and use any one of the above again in an instant.
We havent used the Nosler Partition in that cartridge, but have used the 180 NP in a .300 H&H to VERY good effect.
Penetration on all bullets mentioned, even on frontal, or angled shots, was more than sufficient.
The .30-06 we used is typically not getting high velocities, and all loads clocked just under 2700 fps.
Ingwe

Ingwe, I used the Nosler partition out of my 300 win mag loaded down close to 30-06 velocity, 2875fps. The performance has been perfect. The NP usually did not exit on anything except Springbok. Eland, Kudu, Hartebeest, etc. the NP gave perfect performance.

I have also used the 180gr TSX on hogs here at the ranch in the same load and velocity. They almost always exit. I was disappointed in that many of the hogs ran long distances before dying. Even on perfect heart shots they run a long ways. My take on them is that they don't do enough internal damage for my taste at 2875fps. On hogs I have been using plain old Rem. corelokts. They are cheap and at 2875fps, kill hogs very well.

I would use the TSX in Africa, but it would be a 165gr driven as fast as I could make it out of my 300win mag. I wouldn't use a TSX at 30-06 velocity.

Just my opinion.

ss

To put a little of the reply in context here, I have my second barrel on this 30/06. The first had over 3000 rounds through it as I keep very accurate reloading records and have that log book. With this many rounds through this gun I have experimented and experienced a lot of different bullets, loads, and game taken.

When it comes to the 30/06 the 180 has long been the standard bullet weight. This was due to the lack of any premium bullet made during the first 80-100 years of it's life. There is no reason to use a 180 cup and core when there is a 165 premium. The 30/06 and the 165's were made for each other. For the same reason that a 300 mag kills faster then the 30/06 on many species the 165 kills faster then the 180 in the 30/06. The additional few hundred feet per second are impressive and actually make the 30/06 with a premium every bit the equal,and in my opinion the superior to the 300 mag when the latter uses a cup and core 180 grain bullet.

I even went to the 150 and 130 in the 30/06 just to see how low I could go. The 150's may be better, or more stunning impacts on game under 200 pounds, but as you get into the 500 pound and above range the 150's were not as impressive as the 165's and the petals struggled to stay on at 50-150 yards.

The 30/06 with the NP is a great combination. Think about how long this pair has been around and how many animals have been taken with them! Anyone critical of this match would quickly show how little experience they have! For this combo I think the 180 is needed because you loose a large percentage of weight automatically. Loss of weight means loss of penetration. In it's day the NP was the best design and function available. However today the TSX and the A frame have it beat for performance.

The Swift was for a few years the bullet of choice for me. Much like the Trophy bonded, and interbond. These designs also work far better in the 165 grain weight. Added velocity and impact were far better then the 180 grain bullets. Now I have had the conversation, or "debate" that some guys are loading the 180's to 2850fps Wow that is smoken with a 180 grain bullet. I'm not sure that my rifle in the sunshine with ammo that hot would be the prudent way to go. I can shoot 165's to near 3000 fps. That velocity difference is significant. A typical 300 mag shoots 180's between 3000 and 3100fps so getting near 3000 with a /06 and a bullet that will mushroom to twice or even 3 times its diameter. The Bonded core bullets deliver so much impact to game it sometimes look as if they are electrocuted for a moment. I' cannot count how many animals I have seen knocked down with the Aframe. They don't always stay down but there is never any doubt they are hit.

Exits are about as rare as a recovered bullet is with the TSX. There was a time when I debated with myself over the pros and cons of the bonded bullets and the monolithic TSX designs. I could see so many benefits of both types. What it came down to was the exits and the penetration of the X bullet. It allows that shot you need when the animal is not in the perfect boadside situation. The exits are the better bleeders too.

As a PH I loved seeing the impacts with the bonded bullets. This was a huge benefit to knowing there was a solid hit. Game shot the same way with the TSX might just jump and run at the shot without any indication of an impact. Yet we would find blood at the site. I shook my head in disbelief plenty of times knowing the shot was a clean miss only to see blood and a dead animal 100 yards away. I learned to never give up looking for game after the shot. That goes for any projectile today.

So the 30/06 without any question is a better rifle with the 165 premium( not the 165 NP) The debate you need to wrestle with comes down to this simple desire; exits, or visual impacts. Whichever is the priority for you makes the choice easy.

I'll also add that when you start getting into the 1000lb plus game size the TSX totally blows away anything else made. Nothing will penetrate through that much body mass like a TSX will. I shot an eland well over 2000 lbs at the same distance as the hunter. His 286 grain bonded bullet from his 9.3, and my 165 grain TSX were only a couple inches apart on the exit side under the skin. There is no chance that a bonded core bullet from the 30/06 would have made it that far with those huge mushrooms. This was a sub 100 yard shot on that huge beast and the 165 grain Bullet was a picture perfect four petal mushroom.

JJ...good post...especially as the size of the game gets bigger..the TSX is the way to go..
As was noted here and elsewhere by a lot of people, including JB. It would appear that the through and through shot of a TSX does not put the game down as quickly as a bullet like the Swift or NP that will expend all of its energy within the target animal...
This is an argument as old as smokeless powder and varied projectiles. There may very well be some validity to it, but I have seen so little difference between the reactions of game to the two types of bullets, that I consider it inconsequential.
We have all agreed and established that they all work well...so as in so many other instances...go with what works for you, what you feel comfortable with, and what you have confidence in...
Ingwe

JJ, let me see if I caught the crux of your post.

In 30-06:

You recommend using the 165 TSX or if using the Nosler Partition (or Swift A frame) the bullet needs to 180gr.?

In 300 win mag:

What bullet and velocity combination would you prefer to see in 300 win mag? Actually let me ask that a different way, what 30 caliber bullet would you recommend at say 2900fps?

What would you think about the 200gr Nosler Partition in 300win mag? That is what I took to Africa on my second trip.

I appreciate your thoughts.

josh

Okay, the 2900fps speed I have to say the 165tsx, it's what I'm shooting and all the hunters that use my 30'06's use as well. I would not be able to choose otherwise as it would be a contradiction to what I use myself. I have a lot of hunters come to camp and use this 30/06. I don't wanna search for lost game, nor do I want the blame for having game lost due to my handloads.

The only "premium bullet" that should stay at 180 for a 30/06 is the NP. that is due to the significant weight loss after impact. This is not a problem, just part of the design that needs to be considered.

the 200 gr NP from a fast rifle like a 300 mag is great, maybe not the best long range or all around option, but for Plains game which is usually shot at 200 yards or less, mostly much less, the 200 grain NP is a good choice. It will lose a lot of weight after impact, but due to the bigger starting size it's still likely over 100-120 grains once the front explodes inside the lungs and heart.

Please make no mistake here, I'm not anti bullet of any make( except cup and core) I have seen a lot of performance differences when several hundred big game are shot in camp per year. So I'm not trying to promote or embellish anything here. There are only a few differences between them, they are all better then cup and core, and higher velocity makes all of them work better. I suppose there is a limit to the velocity. The benefits of shooting at or a bit over 3000fps are significant compared to shooting at 2700 or 2800fps and under.

JJ, thanks for the reply. I'll try the 165 TSX's in my 300 win mag.

I must say that even though I shoot a 300 win mag, I am a bit recoil sensitive and I am prone to slow a load down until a I am comfortable with the recoil. I can probably stand the 165gr bullet at close to 3000fps without losing any field shooting accuracy.

It does pain me to shelve the partition, can't say that I have ever had anything like a bullet failure with it. The only thing I have ever wished for was an exit wound, but partitions just don't exit much.

josh

Phil Shoemaker just did such a test useing 220 gr. bullet in the 30-06. The 220 gr. Nosler partition out penetrated them all by a surprising amount...I duplicated those tests after talking to Phil about it..I got the same results.

I also added to his test with the 150 and 180 gr. Barnes bullets: the 200 gr. Swifts: and 200 gr. Woodleighs (ment for 300 Win. etc.) and 220 gr. Woodleighs that I had on hand.

The results were the same as Phils (458 on 24 hr.)the 220 gr. Nolser outdid them all and by a good amount..

I will be shooting the 220 gr. Woodleighs for deer etc, and the 220 Noslers on all the big stuff from elk on up in my Win. M-95 new model Saddle Ring Carbine in 30-06, thus my interest in this subject and my conversations with Phil, a good personal friend and a cornocopia of good information on guns that kill big things....

There is no doubt that those heavy bullets really drive deep. I think it's a dandy load for things that are really big and really close. However I don't see it as an all around load that would have the same function from 50 yards to 350 yards.

If you're loading for a specific application of something huge at closer ranges, that would be a hard combination to beat. Not so good for cross canyon shots in windy conditions, at 300 yards though. In Most places we never know what will be around the next bush, or across that canyon in Africa.

I would be very interested in the results and the test media and distance this was done at. Curious if the results were from short range, or from 250 yards? Those 220's are slow from the /06 and drop velocity fast. I doubt that the 220 partition will even be close to the penetration of a 165TSX at 250 yards.

JJ,
Both Phil and I were testing at very close range. Mine was at 25 and a few at 100 yards and thats where I would use the 220 noslers..Not sure what range Phil tested at..I was only looking for a dark timber elk load, as shots are right under your nose going South.

If I were wanting an all around load, then I would opt for the 180 Nosler partition or perhaps the Accubond, in the 06 at 2700 FPS, a Swift or any other one of the super premiums with a bonded core or a partition would suit me also..

I am really sold on North Fork bullets and I have always been a big time Woodleigh fan..I have used the Swift bullets a good deal and they always work as pictured in the advertisements..I will say that sometimes I get the idea that the Swift bullets are too perfect in that they ball up in this very smooth ball with a hump in the stem and are too smooth to suit me and as a result of that smoothness they don't do as much tissue destruction as say the Woodleigh, Barnes X, or the Nosler that have those ragged buzz saw expanded wings..Have you noticed this?

What I have found is that the Swift works great on big stuff, particularly buffalo, but sometimes not so good on the smaller stuff in that it runs a good ways and doesn't leave a good blood trail..I noticed this in my 7x57, but mostly with my .338 Win. but I have never lost an animal that I shot with them. It has only happened on a couple of ocassions but thats always bothersome.

I discussed this at Dallas with the Swift rep and he said that is the exact reason they came out with the Sirocco, and perhaps I need to try that Sirocco bullet. I intend to do that at some point.

Just some personal observations on my part for whatever its worth...

I have used the 220gr NP as my primary Plains game 06 combination. Last shot was an Eland and the bullet was found under the skin on the off side. Most curious bullet recovery I have ever found. The front core seperated but was found as a perfect rivet resting with the remainder of the bullet. Which means to me neither the bullet nor the front core deviated on their track thru the animal. I would have never thought this possible.

I have seen that several times with NP's, but it is out of the ordinary. I suspect that the little bit of front core stays pretty much attached to the rest of the bullet until stopped by the offside hide. I've also found a bunch of jackets and cores together in much the same way with conventional cup-and-core bullets.

I've got a bullet board here with about 100 or more recovered bullet of all kinds. Many of the visitors here have seen this board in my trophy room. All the details on every bullet are included on that board.

Of the several dozen NP bullets on that board there are a number that have had this separated condition, but are still resting together. I glued them back together so they would not get lost. This probably happens more then we realize until many of us talk about it like this.

Doesn't this odd front core separation boost the partition a bit in our estimation? Obviously I realize that when we are comparing TSX's, nosler partitions and the Swift bullet we are pretty well talking about the creme of the bullet crop. But still, this tidbit is not a mark against the partition.

josh

I have had very good experience with 200 grain A Frames from the 300 win mag and 300 H&H. I favor using the heavy for caliber bullets and have not found any handicap when shooting at longer distances. Penetration and performance were excellent on all species from oribi/bushbuck at close range to longer shots on the floodplains on sitatunga,lechwe,puku.

It is not uncommon for the front portion of the Nosler to seperate and pieces of it scatter about inside the animal doing a lot of damage btw..What you will have left is a perfectly expanded bullet that appears much like a Barnes X but with all the petals still in place. If you do not want this to happen then slow the bullet down or go to a heavier Nosler such as the awesome 220 gr. 30 caliber, or from a 130 gr. .270 to a 160 gr. 270 in Nosler persuasion...I have been using Noslers for 50 years and it is the bullet by which all others are judged, how can you beat that?

Most of todays premium bullets are so good that comparing them is a waste of time..The Northfork, Woodleigh, Nosler, Swift, Barnes X and any of the new and popular bonded core bullets such as the interbond Hornady, Swift Sirraco, Nosler Accubond, etc. etc. will work fine 99% of the time, maybe a 100%...

I fear we have reached a point in bullet technowledgly thanks to the great bullet makers we have in the USA, wherein this "best bullet" arguement has about run its course and is no longer a viable discussion for the most part, at least IMO...

Thank you for your imput everyone. Much appreciated. E

Monolithic technology (aka TSX) works and works well, thats why Nosler and Hornady have jumped on the band wagon. Cant imagine its because of California's lead ban, but who knows. Super high velocity, thats a no-brainer TSX and TTSX all the way. All the other great bullets will do for 99% and for deer, bullets like the Hornady S.P. are still king in my book.

I can't base my opinion on anything like the number of African game animals that some of the posters who've already responded.

So I'll stick to the experience I have only. That is:
1) 8 PG animals (impala, blesbock, kudu, waterbuck, gemsbuck, hartebeest, blue wildebeest, and eland) with the NP 180 PPT from a 300WSM at MV ~2980. All exited at ranges from 100-150 yds., except the eland at 200 yds. That bullet broke the on shoulder and was recovered below the far side hide, fully expanded at about 60% weight retention.
2) 7 PG animals (springbok, blesbock, impala, hartebeest, black wildebeest, gemsbok, and zebra) with the Barnes 140 grain TSX from a 270WSM at a MV ~3150. All were passthroughs at ranges from 80-260 yds.
3) 2 African animals with a Swift AF - a 400 grain 0.423" bullet at MV ~2325 fps. One was Cape buffalo shot frontally in the chest x2 at 65 yds. Both bullets penetrated into the intestines, neither recovered. The other was a reedbuck at about 50-60 yds. with explosive expansion in the right rear ham, exiting after breaking off the right shoulder.

So my conclusion is that these are all effective bullets in the velocity ranges reported, on a very varied size range of African game animals. Matching the bullet and velocity to the game is important, but as usual, good bullet placement seems the most important variable in determining efficacy IMO.