Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters Ask John Barsness Questions About "GETTING THE MOST OUT OF YOUR .30-06"

Hey guys, my spam filter is insane. I didn't get this either. Can someone PM it to me??

Thanks!

Actually, you didn't get it because you just joined, and the article was sent out in May.

I PM'd it to you a couple of minutes ago.

Nice thing about a BOSS equipped M70...anything will shoot.
I'm running max loads of H4350 in front of a CCI 250 and behind a 168 TTSX. Under 1" is no problem even with a Euro Loopie 3-9 with a VERY heavy German #4.

I'd say getting the most out of my .30-'06 was accomplished with a relatively cheap Valmet O/U double and Nosler 200 grain partitions over a lot of H205 - optimized for hunting elk after the manner of white tail and kicking them out of their beds as on brushy north faces but good for anything I'll ever shoot with a .30-'06. Shooting clay birds with the same rib grooves the gun movement at least.

I tried a couple in a Remington 742 and near ripped the rims off - a tribute to the strength of the Remington extractor - when it's good it's very good, when it's bad maybe not. Lots of .30-'06 are gas guns and there it's not so wise to go for the most.

.270 is the biggest cartridge I've ever loaded with dedicated varmint loads though - if the black tailed jack population ever booms again - any general or specific suggestions on optimal (quieter is good blow up varmint bullets is good) small varmint loads?

Clark,

One thing I have heard from more than one gunsmith is that Remington autoloaders often have very slightly rough (or even pitted) chambers, because the chambers get really dry because of the heat generated by gas guns, plus it's more difficult to oil them. It doesn't take much, evidently, to get hard extraction from Remington semi-autos for more than one reason.
One gunsmith in the Northeast even said he had replaced far more extractors on Remington autos than on 700's, and he think that's the reason.

Last year or so Midway had Blemish BTSP 165's. I bought many.

Shooting thru a chrony velocity is 2658 out of a 24" barrel using 55 grains of IMR4350 with Fed 210's and surplus brass.

Is this a slow barrel? I don't know who made the bullets for sure but leaning to spears. A nice fellow allowed me to shoot thru his chrony. Wish I had my other recipies with me which includes Varget.

Heat generated by gas guns? These are not ARs, there is no gas in the chamber except the slight residual amount long after the bullet has left. An autoloader clears the case (and the heat) much faster than any other action. Rough maybe, pitted well that's lousy maintenance.
Don't know what gun you have so hard to comment on load.
Did you test the Chrony with ammo of known velocity like 22RF to see if its off? Have you slugged your bore to see if it's oversize?
GI brass has less capacity than commercial.
56 gr of IMR4350 with a 165 shows 2746 on Hodgdon's website so, given the Chrony is 15' away you are close. 60 gives 2934.
4350 is a fine 30-06 powder but W760/H414 (same powder) meters better and will work just as well for <180 gr bullets.
Varget is a fine 308 powder but not the solution for an 06'
Check out the Hodgdon website:
http://data.hodgdon.com/cartridge_load.asp

Don't know what autoloaders you have fired, but I have shot both Remington and Browning BAR .30-06 autloaders and the cases as they are ejected are HOT.

760/H414 is one of the more temperature-senstive powders around, like many older ball powders. H4350 is much superior in that regard and the short-cut version meters pretty darn well. If you want to use a better ball powder try Ramshot Big Game, close to 760 in burning rate and MUCH less temp-sensitive and much cleaner burning.

I agree fully with Mule Deer regarding the hot brass ejected from gas-operated semi-autos!

If a person doubts Mule Deer on this subject that person should stand just slightly behind and a wee bit to the right of someone shooting any center-fire semi-automatic firearm--oh yes, be sure to catch the ejected brass with bare hands. There will be absolutely no doubt left in that person's mind that the brass is rather hot when it is ejected Nuff said.

Jayhawk Dan

Granted the cases are indeed hot, I've not noticed that cases ejected promptly from other semi-auto action types run cooler - they may, it's as hard to dance around and think clearly as to walk and chew gum.

The only thing close to a data point I've observed is that in one model pistol brass carries more heat out and away and Blazer aluminum cases dump more into the firearm during the brief time they are in the chamber (S&W model 59 in heavy training would heat up and freeze the trigger bar for a hard to clear failure with aluminum case Blazer training ammunition but not with brass case duty ammunition). I suppose case mass seriouly affects how bad the case can burn skin.

In any event I've limited my loads in .30-'06 gas guns to the accepted mid range bullet weights and burning rates in powder selection - my first influence was Tom Hayes' high praise for the Remington series with proper derattling of the magazines etc. and I suppose still floating around Idaho someplace is a 742 with a very nice trigger courtesy of a smith named Phil Collins and a deluxe Lyman receiver sight cut down with a thick pad that my (deceased) wife used as her heavy rifle. Might have to bump the (Cooper) $700 figure when it comes to fixing problems but the .30-'06 is still good for it.

Of course the cases from a sei-auto are hot. Fire 5 shots 1 minute apart from a model 4 or 742 and do the same thing with a bolt action with a matching barrel weight. Put a temp transducer on each and see the results. That's the idea...get the heat out of the rifle. The temps issue w/760/414 is BS. You must use magnum primers with those powders. I'd love to see some verified chrongraph data from -20 to 100 degrees with 760/414 with magnum primers showing a significant (i.e. any effect on hitting big game to 400 yards) variance. Also comparisons with other popular stick and ball powders. Betch an Elk steak that the "nut behind the bolt" is far more important.
I doubt Winchester would be loading 30-06s with W760 if it did not work right. Or the short mags with W780.
Another story that just keeps getting repeated absent any actual testing. Add it to: "Barnes don't shoot","You need a 500 yard rifle to hunt Antelope", "Pyrodex is superior to black powder", "you can't kill an Elk with anything less than a 338 WM" and so on.
The "low temp" powders are just another marketing ploy. One wonders how our G.I.s ever killed all those Germans, Japs and Chinese with their M-1s loaded with 4895 in temps from 50 below to 120 above zero?
Use whatever powder you want but if you want to be critical of any powder, have something besides "titties over the back fence" to hang your hat on.
End of rant...sorry

I just bought a Winchester Model 70 Extreme Weather 30-06 and would like to read the article. How can I get it? Also does anyone have any experienc with 150 grain Winchester E-3 ammunition?

Thanks,
Steeleman

Try this:

http://www.24hourcampfire.com/newsletters/May_2009.html

oldman,

You simply don't know what you are talking about. Sorry to put it that bluntly--and I try not to on the Campfire.

The first shot out of a semi-auto .30-06 will result in a very warm case, and the second will be HOT.

I have fired a lot of bolt-actions 5 times in a minute and never felt as hot a case as has come out of a semi-auto after 2 shots. And the case from a bolt-action comes out of the chamber much more slowly than with any semi-auto. In fact I have had to fire a bolt-action at least 10 times on a hot day to get the cases as hot as they get after 2 shots from a semi-auto.

I have also chronographed 760 (and many other powders) at temperatures from 100 to 0 Fahrenheit and KNOW that older ball powders like 760 not only gain and lose more velocity in heat and cold than several more modern powders but do other stuff.

I have chronographed several powders, including Hodgdon Extremes and Ramshot TAC and Big Game, that showed NO significant change in velocity between 70 and zero. This is with the ammo, rifle etc. at the ambient temperature. And yes, the rounds were from the same batch, and the rifle the same, sometimes within a month of the previous 70-degree test.

ALL powder show some increase in pressure above 70 degrees, but the temp-resistant powders show less than older powders, especially older ball powders like 760.

Quite often, when doing that testing, I have experienced shifts of point of impact at 100 yards with powders that show significant velocity differences at different temperatures. This has little to do with longer-range trajectory, but is the normal shift in POI than we have all seen with significantly different velocities, often horizontal as well as vertical, when "working up" loads with the same rifle.

Or maybe all of your rifles shoot to the same point of impact with any powder charge.

Oh boy... of course the second case will be hot because it is carrying the heat with it, not flowing it into the chamber metal like any other action will. The chamber isn't hotter the case is.
It is, in effect, removing both its heat as well as some of the chamber heat when it is ejected. As I said, try the temp transducer test or talk to an engineer familiar with heat transfer effects in metal or a soldier who has had a BAR or machine gun cook off BECAUSE the hot chamber transferred its heat into the cartridge that soaked it up until ignition was reached. Were that unfired cartridge ejected, (before ignition) it too would have taken the chamber's heat with it. Simple test: put a red hot rod in a bucket of water for 10 seconds, measure the water temp. Do it again in a fresh bucket for one minute, measure the water temp. Betch a steak #2 will be hotter.

"Or maybe all of your rifles shoot to the same point of impact with any powder charge." Come-on don't be a smart ass or we'll send you over to As Real As It Gets!

MAGNUM PRIMERS are the cure and suggested by several reloading books. Now as to hunts from 50 below to 100 above...that's another story. I'm too old and lacking any documented data from a detailed responsible test such as one might find in Rifle or
Handloader I'll stick with proven ball powders that I have used for decades like BL-C, 748 and 760. W780 is the latest and I doubt WRA would be shoving it out the door if it had issues affecting success with the 270/7mm/300 WSM line.

My buddy is still using 4831 surplus from a 40 lb keg purchased decades ago in his 7mm Remmag. Still shoots 1" or better and kills everything he points it at including 7 32"+ Mulies and the best Ram Taken in WY in 2006. (His wife got the best in 2008 using that same old 4831 in her 270)

Certainly pressure varies with temp (hence the African death of the 416 rem) but to suggest that one powder is materially better than another without anything beyond the maker saying so (Ever own a pre 65 Corvair?) will not lead me to toss all my cans of Unique, Red Dot, 2400, 4198, 4227, 4064, 4895, 4831, Bl C, 335, TAC, Big Game, 760, 780, RL 22 & 25, 4F and 2F into the recycle bin.

Dead is dead and in the real world of big game hunting, the nut behind the bolt is the variable that eclipses any temp induced powder variation.

This will kill anything I shoot at, IF I do my part.(1952 721AC with BalVar 5....talk about "obsolete!)

You are a real piece of work.

My original comment on autoloader chambers involved them getting hot and therefore dry, the reason my gunsmith friend suspect they also get pitted in damp climates. You just confirmed that they got hot. It doesn't matter if it's he first or second shot, they get hot--and they get dry.

As for the tempature/powder issue, I HAVE published an article in HANDLOADER about this very thing, a few years ago. Maybe you missed it. I also just published a follow-up article in AMERICAN RIFLEMAN, using some of the older tests but also some newer ones with newer powders. Both articles describe the methodology.

Magnum primers they were a part of both tests. What they do is insure ignition with certain powders under certain conditions, but they do NOT have any effect on velocities with any powder at colder temperatures. The powder makes the difference there.

Part of my AMERICAN RIFLEMAN test involved factory .416 Remington ammo, both from the early 1990's and newly made. It was heated to 110 degrees and aside from slightly elevated muzzle velocites, there were no problems. I have heard about the .416's "problems" in hot weather off and on for years, sometimes when hunting in Africa myself, but have also heard from various PH's who guide in hot areas that they've never had a problem. Dunno why, but my tests couldn't bring up any either. Oh, and I hunt Africa fairly frequently, and know quite a few PH's, and always talk guns with them. Have seen quite a few .416 Remingtons in their hands, and even know some who have bought .416's in recent years.

Among the powders on your "keep" list are at least two that chronographed with a few fps of same velocity at zero as they did at 70, Ramshot TAC and Big Game. You do not list which 4895, 4350 or 4831 you use, but the Hodgdon versions have been temp-resitant for many years. So evidently you don't even know what powders I am talking about.

Whether somebody killed some trophy animal with such-and-such a powder is irrelevant to this discussion. In fact I have even killed several pretty nice animals with powders that don't maintain their velocity in cold. I just don't use them in real cold.

About the only thing I can agree with in your post is the assertion that the nut behind the bolt is the most important thing. But you should stay away from the other subjects you know very little about.

I will respectfully leave the field to you on powders as, as I said "dead is dead".
On the autoloaders you are just wrong. Because a chamber is in an autoloader does not increase the heat produced by the ignition of a powder charge. The longer the case stays in the chamber, the more heat it will transfer to the barrel. That concept is so simple as to defy any rational argument.
You ignore my temp transducer suggestion, you don't seem to understand the red hot rod check, so I guess you're just right and physics and thermodynamics be damned.
I think it's time to end this. I enjoy your writing and subscribe to all the Wolfe magazines, so no need to cause any hard feelings.
I might suggest you NOT assume what another poster does and does not know about anything unless you know that person well, his/her education and work/life experience. To "cap" your argument with an Argumentum Ad Hominem does little to further your position. Thank You.

We are talking at cross purposes.

You are correct. A semi-auto does not generate more heat than any other action in the chamber (the exception being a direct-impingement system like the AR's) but the fact remains that the next round is shoved into the (not hot) chamber IMMEDIATELY after the previous round is fired, heating up the case. This results in more heat-transfer from the chamber than the slower cycling of a bolt rifle. This is inherent in a semi-auto, because of the quick reloading of the chamber.

Yeah, if a the chamber of a bolt action COULD be reloaded as quickly as that of a semi-auto, no doubt the ejected cases would be just as warm. But the fact is that even if a semi-auto is fired as leisurely as a bolt-action (say a round every 15 seconds) the ejected case of the aemi-auto will be hotter, because it will have spent more time in the chamber--and the chamber would have had less time to cool because it is empty--than with a bolt action. The heat-transfer to the empty case is the same, but the "dwell-time" (if you will) is longer with the semi-auto.

Your experimental suggestions were not ignored. I may even try them. But my PRACTICAL experience with a bunch of semi-autos (including so-called AR "piston" rifles) is that the cases come out hotter than from a bolt-action fired at a similar rate.

I do not do much dinking around when firing a single group from any rifle when at the range, so shoot any sort of action as rapidly as possible while aiming as precisely as possible. The fact is that semi-auto cases get hotter, so much so that when I pick them up after shooting, say, 5 rounds in a minute they are still too hot to pick up comfortably, which is not the case with cases fired from a bolt rifle under similar conditions. And since I normally take at least 4-5 rifles to the range during any one session I have been able to make the comparison many times.

But my main point was that because of the heating of cases in semi-autos (for whatever reason) the chambers tend to get dry. Which is also the main point of my gunsmith friend, based on long experience with repairing semi-auto hunting rifles.

Perhaps I was out of line in my last suggestion, but I have been reading your posts on several subjects since you have started posting on the Campfire and so far many have also assumed that the other posters know nothing and you know all.

And thank you too.

While not a semi-auto, I've noticed the cases coming out of my Remington 760 (pump) are signifficantly hotter than that coming out of my bolt guns. Least it seems that way to me. I do not know why.

All of this has brought out the investigator in me. I have some theories that I'll be testing soon.