Hi Folks:

John Barsness's latest exclusive column, "GETTING THE MOST OUT OF YOUR .30-06," is on its way. If you haven't received this or previous versions, simply JOIN OUR MAILING LIST, and you'll be on board for future monthly columns.

Here are links to the last few columns:


"Cartridges and Bullets for Real Buffalo"

"1-12 vs. 1-9 Twist in .223's"

"Modern Rifle Powders"

"Seating Bullets Straightly"

"Cartridges and Bullets for Whitetails"

"Rifle Cartridge Overall Length"

"The .300 Weatherby: The Best .30-Caliber Magnum?"

Don't forget to check out John's (and Eileen's ) other stuff at http://www.riflesandrecipes.com.

Many thanks, as usual, John!

John,
I am at a loss as to how someone can write an entire aticle about the 30-06 and never once utter the words "core-lokt".

That was a good article by John on the 30/06.To be honest it never occured to me to use the Fed215 primer with any 4350 in the 30/06 loads with the 165's; something I do with the 270Winchester.

Question for John: You don't mention using the 215 with H4350,but you do with IMR4350. I use exacly the same load with 165's,ie 59-H4350-165 Sierra's and Partitions.Do you recommend the Fed215 with H4350 as well?

The article is making me feel guilty that I don't use the 06 as much as the 270

John

I'm a big .30-06 fan also, and the .308 is next. With the recent component avaialbility shortages, I have tried to choose powders that work for several applications. I have settled on RL-15 and RL-22, and IMR 4064 (had some from awhile back). Loads are pretty much straight out of Nosler #s 5 and 6. I am curious about the 'normal' vs. cold temp performance. I live and hunt (mostly) in Colorado, sometimes above 11,000'.
Thanks for any comment you have.
Stets newcomb

To all,

I read JB's 30-06 article and when Ramshot powders were suggested I was reminded that I have ignored new powders pretty much after a round with ball powders long ago.

Perhaps the new Ramshot (formerly Accurate?) powders are 'modern' and magnum primers are the way to go?

I looked just now and of the larger containers I have an 8# IMR 4064, 5# RL15 and a 5# RL22. I feel too old to change. Think I will go for a walk soon instead.

Bob,

I used the F215 primer when pressure-testing the IMR4350/165 load to make sure pressures would be at their highest. This means that the load would obviously be safe with standard primers.

I don't necessarily recommend F215's for such loads, but have used them quite a bit over the years and find they work very well in cases like the .270 and .30-06 with slower-burning powders.

Stets,

Reloder 15 is the most cold-resistant of the powders you list.

I have seen Reloder 22 and IMR4064 lose 150 fps from 70 degres to zero. The loss of velocity doesn't matter as much as possible point of impact changes. I have seen such loads change 100-yard POI 2-3" from 70 to zero--and it can be in any direction, not just up and down.

This is the main reason I tend to use cold-resistant powders when hunting here in Montana, or anyplace else it might get cold. Big Game, Hunter, H4350 and H4831 are all very good in cold weather.

JB,

Would you use that 185 VLD load on elk?

btw, I enjoyed the article.

Savage 99,

Ramshot Powders are not the Accurate Powders. The parent company is Western Powders of Miles City, Montana, which started importing the Ramshot line from Belgium in 2000. A few years later Western bought the Accurate line.

The Ramshot rifle powders are modern ball powders that are much less temperature-sensitive and also cleaner-burning than traditional ball powders. All ball powders tend to work better with magnum primers, because to a large extent their burn rate is controlled by "deterrents" on the outside of the granules, which by their very definition don't start burning very easily.
I've found the Ramshot line to be very useful, and in fact they're some of the first powders I reach for anymore when working up new rifle loads.

Ringworm,

I decided to respond to your post last because I needed more time to think about it.

I don't think .30-06 and "Core-Lokt" are inseparable any more than .30-06 and "venerable." I have killed a lot of animals with Core-Lokt factory ammo in the .30-06 but these days don't find any magic in the Core-Lokt spitzers.

The jackets were thinned in the spitzers about 20 years ago to make manufacturing easier, so they are no better (or worse) than any other non-bonded cup-and-core bullet such as the Winchester Power Point or whatever Federal calls their standard bullet these days. I get pretty much identical decent results with all three so lump them together into the "factory ammo" mentioned in the last part of the article.

The 180 RN Core-Lokt still has the heavy jacket sidewalls of the original. Or at least the last one I sectioned did. But I don't know many people who handloaded RN bullets in the .30-06 anymore so didn't mention them.

In general when handloading cup-and-core bullets at moderate muzzle velocities I tend to reach for Sierras first, because they shoot really well, are often cheaper and more available than anything else, and really do a number on game. The 180 GameKing is pretty much my standard 180 cup-and-core when loading the .30-06--and a lot of other .30-caliber cartridges. But I have also loaded and hunted with more than a few Speer Hot-Cors and Hornady Interlocks in the .30-06.

If you feel somehow slighted because of the lack of Core-Lokts in the article then you are certainly welcome to insert them anywhere you like. Or to write your own .30-06/Core-Lokt article.

Thanks, John. I'll stick to the WWLR Standard primers with H4350.

I'd LUV to handload some 180 RN Core-Lokt's in my 17 3/4" bbl(by default).30-06 but,darn it,Remington don't offer them as components.

Great article, I enjoyed the read. I agree with the statement below.



I however prefer the H4350 in my rifles but feel the same way. I have not found a 30-06 that did not like a 165gr bullet pushed by 57gr of H4350 nor did I find any NA game animal that did not fail to die from one.

SU35,

The biggest animal I've taken with the 185 VLD load was a big red stag weighing about 400 pounds, about the size of an average cow elk. It worked very well on a broadside shot, essentially turning the heart inside out and killing VERY quickly.

But as I wrote in my first article about VLD's, I think that is kind of pushing the envelope. I'd sure use them on meat elk, but for hunting mature bulls I'd use something a little stouter.

Mule Deer,
Since Federal primers are impossible to find what do you think of the CCI magnum rifle primers? What about CCI benchrest primers?

John

This article couldn't have come at a better time. I am planning on loading for my new pre64 30-06 and was hoping to use Ramshot powders since they are the easiest to get here. There is not a lot of info on this brand in the manuals so this really helps.

John,

Thanks for the great article. When you are loading standard cup and core bullets in 30-06 for your hunting, do you tend to favor the 165gr or 180gr weight?

Stan

i seem to remember a very detailed test conducted by someone at rifle shooter were he, if im correct...
shot 30+ different types of 30 caliber 180 grain bullets at 100 FPS increments from 1800-3200 FPS impact velocity.
he shot 3 of each bullet and weighed each. the chart he built showed each bullet fired at each velocity , the average retained weight and the average depth of penetration in wet newsprint.
It seems to be my best recolection that the 180 grain core-lokt bullet expanded in a broader window, if that could be the right description, of low to high velocitys. many of the premiums tested perfomed great in a narrow velocity window, over expanding if moving to fast and not expanding at all if too slow.
while i dont think the 30-06 and the remington core-lokt are joined at the hip, i do think any article about the 30-06 that mentions 180 grain bullet weights is remiss if not mentioning the bullet that has probably been used for a longer time and by more hunters than the rest combined.
but...
thats just my opinion.
i wish i could find the article. i had it saved once but lost it in a hard drive crash. im sure someone can remember it.

ringworm,

I have the chart of the bullet test you are talking about on the wall of one of my gun rooms. The Core-Lokt that had such a great velocity range of expansion was the 180 round-nose. The spitzer acted much like any other cup-and-core.

Since Remington doesn't sell the 180 RN for handloading there was no reason to include it in my essay. It is a great bullet but not the best for shooting beyond 300 yards.

Mississippi,

CCI makes fine primers. I use all of them a lot.

JB,
Was wondering if you have any experience with the Hornady SST. Is it as tough as a regular Interlock or does it tend to expand more violently?

ar15a292f,

I tend to favor 180's, but have shot a heck of a lot of animals with cup-and-core 165's. Either will do the job.

The reason I prefer 180's is that heavier bullets tend to drift less in the wind and a little less velocity tends to help standard bullets act a little more reliably. I have yet to see a 180 fail to open up on even the lighest big game.

Plus, I have become so familiar with the trajectory of 180's over the last decade or so that it's relatively easy to hit with them--something made easier with multi-point reticles. So instead of having to sight in my .30-06s with different bullet weights for various purposes, I tend to keep them sighted in with 180's and change the bulet design instead of the weight.

I'm sooo glad you mentioned this. Every season I get dozens of guys in the shop that want to buy 150s for antelope and switch back up to 180s for elk...I always ask if they are sighted in with 180s, and always get the answer "Yes" whereupon, with my usual tact-which you are familiar with- I tell them " you know, you can kill antelope with a 180..."
The other thing Ive noticed shooting '06s is the trajectories of 165s and 180s are so similar that you literally can't tell the difference under most field conditions, why not go 180, for the reasons you stated above?
Ingwe

would you mind giveng me the magazine and issue so i can look it up, please.

orion,
My hunting group has been using 165 grain SSTs for the last 3-4 years. They are superbly accurate, but from our results they do seem to open up more violently than the Interlocks. On Tennessee deer this is no problem, but I would probably try something else on larger game.

ringworm,
That article and chart is in #193 of Handloader.

John - another excellent article!!! I keep wanting to buy another rifle (and then another, and then another, etc.), but can not now find a good reason. The 30-06 does it all. What an excellent round, versitile, accurate and, powerful enough for any North American game. The Army ballisticians of the early 20th century got it right!

Except for varmints, the 30-06 is all I need, although I've got 27 more.

It looks like the latest batch of questions were answered already by others!

I just took my latest .30-06 to the range yesterday morning, a Ruger No. 1A purchased new at Capital Sports & Western Wear, from Ingwe, who is the grouchy guy behind the gun counter. After mounting an older 4x28 Leupold M8, I rummaged through my .30-06 ammo and found I had a few 180 Sierra GameKings loaded up in new Norma cases with 58 grains of Hunter. I tried one in the Ruger's chamber and found out (surprise!) that it fit.

After firing a couple of shots at 25 yards to get close and foul the bore, the first 3-shot group at 100 yards measured a hair over 1". I adjusted the scope and fired the last 2 rounds, which landed a little less than an inch from each other, right where they needed to be. Average muzzle velocity was 2750 fps. I'd say load "development" is over.

Be NICE if they were all that easy!

i looked at 193 and didnt see that listed in the table of contents. a link would be great thanks.

Anyone tried RE-17 in an 06?

I've tried RE-17 in my .30-06 with 150 gr Accubonds. Tried a couple combinations, but none were close to as accurate as good ol' IMR4350. Your mileage may vary....

I'll probably be trying Ramshot Big Game next.

I will too when I see some around here, probably be sitting right next to some Win. Large Rifle primers!

[img]http://www.flickr.com/photos/yukon375/3539935181/[/img] took me 40 yrs to realize the greatness that is the 30-06. now i'm an 06 nut.

Your use of magnum primers with Big Game powder. Is that something I could try with my 6.5 x 55 Winchester Model 70? Or is that as bad an idea as crossoing the streams in Ghostbusters?

If I don't get the results expected with standard primers when shooting any ball powder I usually try magnum primers. I've had very good results with F215's and Big Game in cases as small as the .220 Swift. In fact in the Swift they shrank groups from 1-1.5" to half that.

Mule Deer, In reading this article I noted that several times you referred to Hodgdon's H4350SC powder. Is this a non-catalog item that is going to be introduced or is the current H4350 already a SC powder? I switched over from H4831 to the H4831SC version ten years ago for use in my .270 WIN and would readily switch to a SC version of H4350 for the .30-06 SPRG (I am using IMR4350 now). Enjoyed the article and forwarded to several friends who own .30-06 SPRG rifles. Thanks, Odessa

H4350SC has been out for quite a while. I have been using it for years. As a matter of fact I don't know if the "long cut" version is still available.

I think it's just called H4350 now. I only see H4350 listed on Hodgdon's web site.

H4350
"This Extreme Extruded propellant is a burning speed that has been known to shooters for decades. During that time, Hodgdon has modernized H4350 by shortening the grains for improved metering and making it insensitive to hot/cold temperatures."

from: http://www.hodgdon.com/extreme.html

Also, it looks like H4831 and H4831SC are still different products though.

-Bob F.

So I'm not the only one?? I've got a couple -06's in the safe now, and lots of 308's. So for me the 180 Hornady or Partition at 2800 FPS in the 30-06 is enough "more" gun than the 308's to make it worth using. With 165's and lighter I've never had an 06 run them so much faster than the 308s that I bothered.

I had to giggle though where JB said "I'm not convinced that 7mm is the ideal all around bore diameter..." Agreed 100%

Bob,

I do believe you're right about H4350. I keep calling it SC just because there used to be two H4350's!

What bullet would you consider a second-best replacement for <50 yards for a camp gun? I have a 760 in '06.

Thanks.

I wouldn't call it second-best: The 180 Hornady Interlok round-nose is at least as good as the Core-Lokt.

Good evening, Mule Deer. I enjoy your writing style, your studious approach to your subject, and you brought it all together in this article about the '06. You wrote that in shooting your pre-64 Win. Mod. 70 that you tightened all the screws "including the fore end screw."

I also have a pre-64 Mod. 70 and have been absolutely fearful of adjusting that fore end screw. Please fill me in about the tightness, or lack thereof, of this screw. Should I tighten it, or should I adjust for each different bullet weight, or just what is your best advice in this regard.

Thank you for taking time to read my message.

Dan Lattin (Jayhawk Dan)

Dan,

Glad you enjoyed it! I would start with the forend screw tightened, because that's the way the rifle was designed. But I also wouldn't hesitate to try it backed off, say, half a turn. I've also seen pre-'64's shoot really well with the forend screw completely removed, or the barrel free-floated. But I always start with the simple stuff.

I don't know if there would be any correlation to the forend screw tightness and bullet weight. In my experience there hasn't been, but who knows?

Thank you.

That bullet mimics premium performance.....for the "closer ranges" (under 200 yards) it's as good as any bullet you can buy IMO.

MD is right about this issue with the pre 64's.I've had many and it's all over the map regarding the forend screw,and generally not related to bullet weight.

Presently I have a 375 that likes the srew snugged;also had a 264 that liked it the same way.I have a rechambered 300H&H(to 300 Weatherby) that likes the screw reomoved,and have owned a few others the same way.The differences in how they shoot can be rather dramatic,so don't be afraid to remove or snug the screw the screw if the rifle does not shoot the way it is.

Today I tried 150 Accubond with 55.0 gr of Big Game (WLR primer)in 2 of my .30-06 rifles. Accuracy was as good as or a little better than my favorite IMR-4350 load (59.0 gr) with the same bullet. I think the 55.0 Big Game load is a little milder and a little slower. No pressure signs. I think I'm going to try some at 55.5 or 56.0 gr. I didn't have my chrono with me today.

I'd appreciate hearing your final results.

I just took my old Browning Safari Grade 30-06 to the range and chronographed it and am getting 2886 fps from a 22" tube.
This is with 56.5 grs of IMR 4350 and Hornady 165 gr. Interlock boat tail. It groups well at 200 yds.
Now for a vanilla ice cream cone!
whelennut

Great article Mule Deer,
You mentioned you used R19 for a while with 180's. Whats a good load with this powder. I've been using IMR4350 with 180 Hornaday's and Nosler Partitions since the mid 60's but I'm getting low a have quit a bit of Reloader 19 and thought I would give it a try.
Thanks,
Doc

Around 58 grains of RL-19 often works.

I really enjoyed reading this article. I am pretty much just a lurker on here and haven't developed any relationships with anyone, yet. I have a lot of memories of hunting growing up in a family of four boys, and a father who grew up during the depression and often had to bring home some "meat" with a damascus barreled shotgun or a .22 rifle. Maybe some of you can relate to my experience.

I have always had a few rifles and shotguns . . . a couple of early '70's Winchester 9422 mags, some Cowboy action rifles and pistols in 44-40; a very nice 20 ga Spanish side by side as well as a Browning SBS my dad left for me; and an old Jap Arisaka Mauser custom .300 Savage along with a CVA .50 cal mountain rifle. I have killed my share of deer over the years, but until the last 6-8 months, I was mostly interested in hand guns, mainly .45 acp. I hired an old Marine Corps buddy who turned me on to center fire rifles.

My first purchase was a Cooper .204 Ruger with a Swarovski scope, because all my buddies said you had to have a Swarovski scope on a Cooper rifle (ha ha) . . . Over the next few months, the rifle fever overtook me, and having the means to "try" to satisfy my hunger for "fine rifles" I began to peruse gun broker, guns international, guns america, and a myriad of other online gun dealers. I won't mention the stable of "fine" rifles I now own (.22 Mag; 22 Hornet Anschutz, 25-06 Sako's; 6.5x55 Swede Mausers; .300 Savage; 7x57 Mauser, .350 Rem Mag Custom Shop, and .416 Rigby Ruger). I own two 30-06's and thought about selling both of them until I read John's piece.

As a youngster I always was "told" the 30-06 is the most powerful rifle in America. That is why, in the Marines when I was qualifying on the rifle range with a M-14, I believed the old wives tail that the 30-06 kicked like a mule, since that "weaker" .308 put some bruises on my shoulder with that steel butt plate. Before reading John's fantastic article I was convinced I had no use for a 30-06 since I now had my "dream" safari grade 7x57 Mauser, and was on the look out for an 8x57 Mauser which would render my 30-06's obsolete. Now I will definitely keep my Interarms Whitworth in the stable (sell the Rem BDL Custom Deluxe) and retire it to 180-200 grain duty on Elk sized game, along side my .350 Rem Mag. (doh!) My 7x57 Mauser will be my second rifle (.416 Rigby the first) I will take to Africa for plains game action, with the Rigby reserved for DG. I am in heaven with all the possibilities. Can't possibly shoot all these rifle enough, so I sure some of them will end up on the auction block in time.
Great 30-06 article which gives me confidence in keeping one around.

Glad you enjoyed it!

As Col. Townsend Whelen once wrote, "The .30-06 is never a mistake."

I will say that I shot a doe at 10 yards and another one a 410 yards. Both were DRT although the one at 410 yards kicked a few more times while lying on the ground. The one at 10 yards did not have a gruesome and large exit wound though the lungs were pretty much mush.

I finally got to the range again (with my chrono, this time) as I continue development of a 150 gr Accubond load with Ramshot Big Game. This time I brought 150 gr Accubonds, loaded with 56.0 gr of Big Game. Some had the WLR primer, others had the Federal 215M magnum match primer. I had 2 rifles- my KM77 Ruger with a 22" barrel, and a Win M70 black shadow with a 24" barrel. Here's how they shot at 100 yards-
WLR load- KM77 did 0.5" for 3 shots, avg vel. 2904 fps.
M70 did 1.4" for 3 shots, avg vel 2929 fps.
The KM77 barrel had just been cleaned, which might have helped it. The M70 trigger is not as good as the Ruger's. (The Ruger has a Mark Bansner trigger job.) I also shot the same bullet with 59.0 gr of IMR-4350 (my current load)out of the M70 and got 2923 fps.

Fed215M load- M70 did 1.00" for 3 shots, avg vel 3011 fps.
KM77 did 1.13" for 3 shots. No chrono due to rain.

The big surprise to me here was the almost 80 fps gain from the magnum primers. I was shocked! I think it must make the Big Game burn a lot more efficiently. No pressure signs.

So, I don't see a need to go hotter than this. The accuracy certainly warrants loading up another box with the Fed 215M primers to try in my other '06's. I'm plenty satisfied with 3000 fps from a 24" barrel. I'm guessing my Ruger would be around 2990 fps, which is more than adequate.

As always, your mileage may vary......

I currently use IMR4350, Hornady 165 SPBT out of a M700 24".

After reading about cold weather POA changing I have become worried since I range shoot at temps between 60's and 100 degrees but hunt whitetails from 30 to -20. I hunted first time last winter with a centerfire.

I haven't heard much said on Varget. Is H4350 a better cold weather powder than Varget? I have a little Varget on hand to use on a light grain Hornady that i can use for group testing 165's.

I really don't see the need for a premium bullet out of an 06 for Iowa whitetails is this just wrong thinking?

Bith Varget and H4350 are among Hodgdon's Extreme line of powders, which work very well in cold weather.

In my experience the 165 Hornady BTSP from the .30-06 is plenty for any deer hunting--and plenty for some bigger game as well!

I got out to the range yesturday and tried a few loads of Varget 46.5, 46.8, 47 and 47.5. My groups are closer at 46.5 and 46.8 but opened up on 47. Wow 46.8 groups better the my IMR4350 loads!

Wish I had a chrony, I can only guess the speed. Seems like I have my cold weather hunting load.

Makes me think my gun likes faster powders I should try H4895 maybe.

When I came home from Germany in 1975, I brought back a Sako L61R in .30-06. I settled on 60gr H4831 and a Hornady 165gr Spire Point. This was lit off with the 8 1/2-120 Winchester primer. I have no idea what the velocity was, but it gave consistent 1" groups at 100 yards. After a very long hiatus from reloading (raising 5 children can put a damper on things), I'm getting back into reloading. 1) Is there any appreciable difference between the Hornaday 165gr SST and the 165 BTSP ?
2) I originally picked H4831 as the Hodgdon manual (1975 version) showed quite acceptable velocities with only 44,000 CUP.
Is 60gr H4831SC too much for my Sako. I ask, as I have been told that the buring rate has changed in the last 34 years. Many thanks!

Remmy - you mentioned trying Varget with, I think, 165 grain bullets. (Your second post didn't mention bullet weight.)

Here is a thought if you wish to try a slightly reduced load for deer. I have had good results with 170 Hornady flat nose .30/30 bullets over 47 gr. of R15 with either a CCI250 mag. primer or a standard LR primer. In my Sako this load shoots anywhere from just under to just over 1" groups.

According to the Hornady book this bullet can be driven to about 2500 fps. I haven't chronographed this load but I estimate it is going between 2450 and 2500 fps.

Have tried the same charge weights with both 165 Corelokt bullets and some 168 grain HP match bullets pulled from some .308 ammo I got my hands on. In both cases the results were good.

Since R15 and Varget are close in burning rate it suggests to me that your results with Varget powder may be giving you less velocity than you think.

In any case it is a good light practice load and also quite suitable for deer at woods ranges. Hope this info helps.

Jim

10ntarioJim - You are correct, 165 is the bullet weight I currently have used in my loads.

Is R15 good for extreme temp ranges? I don't know how it compares to Varget?

I have read that benchrest shooters like IMR4350 because of the higher volocity but if I lose some because it is minus 10 out hunting and not 90 when range shooting then an extreme powder does sound better. A chrony is on my wish list.

Reloader 15 is pretty temp-proof these days. Some years ago (say more than a decade) it wasn't so good, but in recent years it is pretty reliable at any temperature. This is due to changes made when it was submitted for use as a military powder.

Mule Deer,

Mag primers, or Standard and why.

I use RL 22.

Thanks,

Spot

Is there any reliable +P data for the 06? I don't believe in red lining a cartridge but in a modern action it just seems that loading to the same 60,000 psi that the 270 is would be safe and sane.

The only loads of this sort I know of are from Bob Hagel's writing and I know these are too "Heman" for me unless in a chamber that is long throated to the point of being free bored.

Not that I know of, though of course that would be possible.

Actually, the SAAMI limit for the .30-06 is 60,000 psi, though most of the factory loads I've seen tested go 58-59.

According to the rules of internal ballistics, adding about 1.5 grains of powder to the typical 55-60 grain .30-06 manual loads would add around 3000-5000 psi. If the original load gets around 58-59,000 psi, this would result in 62-64,000 psi.

I have done this a number of times with various .30-06 manual loads and never enountered the slightest sign of dangerous pressure. I have even had some such loads pressure-rested and often the pressure was still around 60,000.

John, thanks for the article. I enjoyed it.

There's always something new with the 30-06 and components, isn't there? My old pre-64 fwt 30-06 has always been a 1 1/4" rifle, or so I thought. That with your old load of the 165 Hornady and 58.5 grains of IMR4350, which produces 2850 in my rifle's 22" barrel. For whatever reason that rifle hates Nosler partitions.

An aside... That rifle has always been a bit of a reality check for me. It seems I was always playing with my latest wonder rifle. Custom this, special handload that. And as often as not I'd head home from the range pissed off at the new toy. But that old 30-06 with the equally old Leupold 2-7? Every year, every time, it always put that 165 Hornady load in the same spot...2 3/4" high at 100. Every time. And every time I always wondered why I bothered with anything else! And then I'd buy the next "rifle of the week". Gunnutitis? Wonderful, ain't it?

Anyway, about a year ago I decided to try the 150TSX. I worked up to a very comfortable 59 grains of H4350, which clocks 2950 and consistently groups under an inch, usually around 3/4". There are absolutely no pressure signs and I suspect I could get to 3000, but I tend to baby the old girl a bit. Great old cartridge.

Does anyone have the link to this article? Can't seem to find it.

Thanks for the help,

ddj

Can I get the link to "GETTING THE MOST OUT OF YOUR .30-06," sent to me again? I accidently deleted it.

PMing it to you Swampman.

JB is right about IMR-4350. It really is hard to beat in the .30-06. I've been shooting some Ramshot Big Game in my rifles with 150 gr Accubonds. I've been trying loads in the 56 gr range with WLR and also Fed 215M primers. While the accuracy is good, I cannot match the accuracy results I get with 59.0 gr of IMR-4350 and the 150 gr Accubond. In 7 different rifles, (4 winchesters, 2 Rugers, 1 Remington) the IMR load averages .84" for 3-shot groups at 100 yards. The best accuracy combo (so far) with Big Game (55.0 gr with the Fed 215M) averages 1.14". With the IMR load, just about every one of my rifles does 1 MOA or better for 3 shots at 100 yards.
Big Game has shown better velocity, and meters a lot better. (I weigh every charge of IMR-4350.)But the IMR is still hard to beat for accuracy.
Now, about temperature stability- When I do my final fall sight-ins, the temperature is usually around 50 or so. Deer season here in PA (and neighboring New York)it is typical to hunt at 25- 40 degrees. So, the temp difference from sight-in to hunting is maybe 25 degrees, but often less.
So, I just loaded up a couple boxes with 59.0 gr IMR-4350, WLR primer, in W-W brass.
Your results may be different from mine.

Or, run an AI die in the chamber, so it'll hold a little more 4350, use CCI LR Magnums, and top it with a 180 or 200 Partition.

If I need more out of an '06 than that, I go look in the safes and find something 30 or bigger that has a belt and a 26 inch barrel. (Factory Light Mags with the 180 Partitions for the fire members who think all this reload business is too time consuming when they could be in the hills killin' stuff.)

Wayne

I've used IMR-4064 and 4350 in everthing from 30-06 to 220 Swift for over 50 years. Works OK, but meters like gravel. I'm just switching over to ball powder (Reloader).

I too was not able to get the article.

Would greatly appreciate a PM for a link to it.

Thanks,

Steve

I'd like to read it also. I signed up, and also subscribed to Rifles & Recipes, but can't find it???

Thanks,

Lee

http://www.24hourcampfire.com/newsletters/May_2009.html

Leon,
Thanks for the info.

Steve

I too would like a link to the article.
Paul B.

Enjoyed the article. I always enjoy, and appreciate, articles that have some actual substance to them vice just rehashing manufacturers marketing points.

On a related note, I have some H4350 and some RL17 on the shelf. Both seem to shoot fine and have comparable velocities based on my limited testing. Apparently H4350 is very temperature stable. I'm curious how consistent RL17 is relative to the H4350? I have not had the opportunity to make a valid comparison yet. Rifle is exclusively for hunting, so consistency is more important to me that a few FPS.

Hey guys, my spam filter is insane. I didn't get this either. Can someone PM it to me??

Thanks!

Actually, you didn't get it because you just joined, and the article was sent out in May.

I PM'd it to you a couple of minutes ago.

Nice thing about a BOSS equipped M70...anything will shoot.
I'm running max loads of H4350 in front of a CCI 250 and behind a 168 TTSX. Under 1" is no problem even with a Euro Loopie 3-9 with a VERY heavy German #4.

I'd say getting the most out of my .30-'06 was accomplished with a relatively cheap Valmet O/U double and Nosler 200 grain partitions over a lot of H205 - optimized for hunting elk after the manner of white tail and kicking them out of their beds as on brushy north faces but good for anything I'll ever shoot with a .30-'06. Shooting clay birds with the same rib grooves the gun movement at least.

I tried a couple in a Remington 742 and near ripped the rims off - a tribute to the strength of the Remington extractor - when it's good it's very good, when it's bad maybe not. Lots of .30-'06 are gas guns and there it's not so wise to go for the most.

.270 is the biggest cartridge I've ever loaded with dedicated varmint loads though - if the black tailed jack population ever booms again - any general or specific suggestions on optimal (quieter is good blow up varmint bullets is good) small varmint loads?

Clark,

One thing I have heard from more than one gunsmith is that Remington autoloaders often have very slightly rough (or even pitted) chambers, because the chambers get really dry because of the heat generated by gas guns, plus it's more difficult to oil them. It doesn't take much, evidently, to get hard extraction from Remington semi-autos for more than one reason.
One gunsmith in the Northeast even said he had replaced far more extractors on Remington autos than on 700's, and he think that's the reason.

Last year or so Midway had Blemish BTSP 165's. I bought many.

Shooting thru a chrony velocity is 2658 out of a 24" barrel using 55 grains of IMR4350 with Fed 210's and surplus brass.

Is this a slow barrel? I don't know who made the bullets for sure but leaning to spears. A nice fellow allowed me to shoot thru his chrony. Wish I had my other recipies with me which includes Varget.

Heat generated by gas guns? These are not ARs, there is no gas in the chamber except the slight residual amount long after the bullet has left. An autoloader clears the case (and the heat) much faster than any other action. Rough maybe, pitted well that's lousy maintenance.
Don't know what gun you have so hard to comment on load.
Did you test the Chrony with ammo of known velocity like 22RF to see if its off? Have you slugged your bore to see if it's oversize?
GI brass has less capacity than commercial.
56 gr of IMR4350 with a 165 shows 2746 on Hodgdon's website so, given the Chrony is 15' away you are close. 60 gives 2934.
4350 is a fine 30-06 powder but W760/H414 (same powder) meters better and will work just as well for <180 gr bullets.
Varget is a fine 308 powder but not the solution for an 06'
Check out the Hodgdon website:
http://data.hodgdon.com/cartridge_load.asp

Don't know what autoloaders you have fired, but I have shot both Remington and Browning BAR .30-06 autloaders and the cases as they are ejected are HOT.

760/H414 is one of the more temperature-senstive powders around, like many older ball powders. H4350 is much superior in that regard and the short-cut version meters pretty darn well. If you want to use a better ball powder try Ramshot Big Game, close to 760 in burning rate and MUCH less temp-sensitive and much cleaner burning.

I agree fully with Mule Deer regarding the hot brass ejected from gas-operated semi-autos!

If a person doubts Mule Deer on this subject that person should stand just slightly behind and a wee bit to the right of someone shooting any center-fire semi-automatic firearm--oh yes, be sure to catch the ejected brass with bare hands. There will be absolutely no doubt left in that person's mind that the brass is rather hot when it is ejected Nuff said.

Jayhawk Dan

Granted the cases are indeed hot, I've not noticed that cases ejected promptly from other semi-auto action types run cooler - they may, it's as hard to dance around and think clearly as to walk and chew gum.

The only thing close to a data point I've observed is that in one model pistol brass carries more heat out and away and Blazer aluminum cases dump more into the firearm during the brief time they are in the chamber (S&W model 59 in heavy training would heat up and freeze the trigger bar for a hard to clear failure with aluminum case Blazer training ammunition but not with brass case duty ammunition). I suppose case mass seriouly affects how bad the case can burn skin.

In any event I've limited my loads in .30-'06 gas guns to the accepted mid range bullet weights and burning rates in powder selection - my first influence was Tom Hayes' high praise for the Remington series with proper derattling of the magazines etc. and I suppose still floating around Idaho someplace is a 742 with a very nice trigger courtesy of a smith named Phil Collins and a deluxe Lyman receiver sight cut down with a thick pad that my (deceased) wife used as her heavy rifle. Might have to bump the (Cooper) $700 figure when it comes to fixing problems but the .30-'06 is still good for it.

Of course the cases from a sei-auto are hot. Fire 5 shots 1 minute apart from a model 4 or 742 and do the same thing with a bolt action with a matching barrel weight. Put a temp transducer on each and see the results. That's the idea...get the heat out of the rifle. The temps issue w/760/414 is BS. You must use magnum primers with those powders. I'd love to see some verified chrongraph data from -20 to 100 degrees with 760/414 with magnum primers showing a significant (i.e. any effect on hitting big game to 400 yards) variance. Also comparisons with other popular stick and ball powders. Betch an Elk steak that the "nut behind the bolt" is far more important.
I doubt Winchester would be loading 30-06s with W760 if it did not work right. Or the short mags with W780.
Another story that just keeps getting repeated absent any actual testing. Add it to: "Barnes don't shoot","You need a 500 yard rifle to hunt Antelope", "Pyrodex is superior to black powder", "you can't kill an Elk with anything less than a 338 WM" and so on.
The "low temp" powders are just another marketing ploy. One wonders how our G.I.s ever killed all those Germans, Japs and Chinese with their M-1s loaded with 4895 in temps from 50 below to 120 above zero?
Use whatever powder you want but if you want to be critical of any powder, have something besides "titties over the back fence" to hang your hat on.
End of rant...sorry

I just bought a Winchester Model 70 Extreme Weather 30-06 and would like to read the article. How can I get it? Also does anyone have any experienc with 150 grain Winchester E-3 ammunition?

Thanks,
Steeleman

Try this:

http://www.24hourcampfire.com/newsletters/May_2009.html

oldman,

You simply don't know what you are talking about. Sorry to put it that bluntly--and I try not to on the Campfire.

The first shot out of a semi-auto .30-06 will result in a very warm case, and the second will be HOT.

I have fired a lot of bolt-actions 5 times in a minute and never felt as hot a case as has come out of a semi-auto after 2 shots. And the case from a bolt-action comes out of the chamber much more slowly than with any semi-auto. In fact I have had to fire a bolt-action at least 10 times on a hot day to get the cases as hot as they get after 2 shots from a semi-auto.

I have also chronographed 760 (and many other powders) at temperatures from 100 to 0 Fahrenheit and KNOW that older ball powders like 760 not only gain and lose more velocity in heat and cold than several more modern powders but do other stuff.

I have chronographed several powders, including Hodgdon Extremes and Ramshot TAC and Big Game, that showed NO significant change in velocity between 70 and zero. This is with the ammo, rifle etc. at the ambient temperature. And yes, the rounds were from the same batch, and the rifle the same, sometimes within a month of the previous 70-degree test.

ALL powder show some increase in pressure above 70 degrees, but the temp-resistant powders show less than older powders, especially older ball powders like 760.

Quite often, when doing that testing, I have experienced shifts of point of impact at 100 yards with powders that show significant velocity differences at different temperatures. This has little to do with longer-range trajectory, but is the normal shift in POI than we have all seen with significantly different velocities, often horizontal as well as vertical, when "working up" loads with the same rifle.

Or maybe all of your rifles shoot to the same point of impact with any powder charge.

Oh boy... of course the second case will be hot because it is carrying the heat with it, not flowing it into the chamber metal like any other action will. The chamber isn't hotter the case is.
It is, in effect, removing both its heat as well as some of the chamber heat when it is ejected. As I said, try the temp transducer test or talk to an engineer familiar with heat transfer effects in metal or a soldier who has had a BAR or machine gun cook off BECAUSE the hot chamber transferred its heat into the cartridge that soaked it up until ignition was reached. Were that unfired cartridge ejected, (before ignition) it too would have taken the chamber's heat with it. Simple test: put a red hot rod in a bucket of water for 10 seconds, measure the water temp. Do it again in a fresh bucket for one minute, measure the water temp. Betch a steak #2 will be hotter.

"Or maybe all of your rifles shoot to the same point of impact with any powder charge." Come-on don't be a smart ass or we'll send you over to As Real As It Gets!

MAGNUM PRIMERS are the cure and suggested by several reloading books. Now as to hunts from 50 below to 100 above...that's another story. I'm too old and lacking any documented data from a detailed responsible test such as one might find in Rifle or
Handloader I'll stick with proven ball powders that I have used for decades like BL-C, 748 and 760. W780 is the latest and I doubt WRA would be shoving it out the door if it had issues affecting success with the 270/7mm/300 WSM line.

My buddy is still using 4831 surplus from a 40 lb keg purchased decades ago in his 7mm Remmag. Still shoots 1" or better and kills everything he points it at including 7 32"+ Mulies and the best Ram Taken in WY in 2006. (His wife got the best in 2008 using that same old 4831 in her 270)

Certainly pressure varies with temp (hence the African death of the 416 rem) but to suggest that one powder is materially better than another without anything beyond the maker saying so (Ever own a pre 65 Corvair?) will not lead me to toss all my cans of Unique, Red Dot, 2400, 4198, 4227, 4064, 4895, 4831, Bl C, 335, TAC, Big Game, 760, 780, RL 22 & 25, 4F and 2F into the recycle bin.

Dead is dead and in the real world of big game hunting, the nut behind the bolt is the variable that eclipses any temp induced powder variation.

This will kill anything I shoot at, IF I do my part.(1952 721AC with BalVar 5....talk about "obsolete!)

You are a real piece of work.

My original comment on autoloader chambers involved them getting hot and therefore dry, the reason my gunsmith friend suspect they also get pitted in damp climates. You just confirmed that they got hot. It doesn't matter if it's he first or second shot, they get hot--and they get dry.

As for the tempature/powder issue, I HAVE published an article in HANDLOADER about this very thing, a few years ago. Maybe you missed it. I also just published a follow-up article in AMERICAN RIFLEMAN, using some of the older tests but also some newer ones with newer powders. Both articles describe the methodology.

Magnum primers they were a part of both tests. What they do is insure ignition with certain powders under certain conditions, but they do NOT have any effect on velocities with any powder at colder temperatures. The powder makes the difference there.

Part of my AMERICAN RIFLEMAN test involved factory .416 Remington ammo, both from the early 1990's and newly made. It was heated to 110 degrees and aside from slightly elevated muzzle velocites, there were no problems. I have heard about the .416's "problems" in hot weather off and on for years, sometimes when hunting in Africa myself, but have also heard from various PH's who guide in hot areas that they've never had a problem. Dunno why, but my tests couldn't bring up any either. Oh, and I hunt Africa fairly frequently, and know quite a few PH's, and always talk guns with them. Have seen quite a few .416 Remingtons in their hands, and even know some who have bought .416's in recent years.

Among the powders on your "keep" list are at least two that chronographed with a few fps of same velocity at zero as they did at 70, Ramshot TAC and Big Game. You do not list which 4895, 4350 or 4831 you use, but the Hodgdon versions have been temp-resitant for many years. So evidently you don't even know what powders I am talking about.

Whether somebody killed some trophy animal with such-and-such a powder is irrelevant to this discussion. In fact I have even killed several pretty nice animals with powders that don't maintain their velocity in cold. I just don't use them in real cold.

About the only thing I can agree with in your post is the assertion that the nut behind the bolt is the most important thing. But you should stay away from the other subjects you know very little about.

I will respectfully leave the field to you on powders as, as I said "dead is dead".
On the autoloaders you are just wrong. Because a chamber is in an autoloader does not increase the heat produced by the ignition of a powder charge. The longer the case stays in the chamber, the more heat it will transfer to the barrel. That concept is so simple as to defy any rational argument.
You ignore my temp transducer suggestion, you don't seem to understand the red hot rod check, so I guess you're just right and physics and thermodynamics be damned.
I think it's time to end this. I enjoy your writing and subscribe to all the Wolfe magazines, so no need to cause any hard feelings.
I might suggest you NOT assume what another poster does and does not know about anything unless you know that person well, his/her education and work/life experience. To "cap" your argument with an Argumentum Ad Hominem does little to further your position. Thank You.

We are talking at cross purposes.

You are correct. A semi-auto does not generate more heat than any other action in the chamber (the exception being a direct-impingement system like the AR's) but the fact remains that the next round is shoved into the (not hot) chamber IMMEDIATELY after the previous round is fired, heating up the case. This results in more heat-transfer from the chamber than the slower cycling of a bolt rifle. This is inherent in a semi-auto, because of the quick reloading of the chamber.

Yeah, if a the chamber of a bolt action COULD be reloaded as quickly as that of a semi-auto, no doubt the ejected cases would be just as warm. But the fact is that even if a semi-auto is fired as leisurely as a bolt-action (say a round every 15 seconds) the ejected case of the aemi-auto will be hotter, because it will have spent more time in the chamber--and the chamber would have had less time to cool because it is empty--than with a bolt action. The heat-transfer to the empty case is the same, but the "dwell-time" (if you will) is longer with the semi-auto.

Your experimental suggestions were not ignored. I may even try them. But my PRACTICAL experience with a bunch of semi-autos (including so-called AR "piston" rifles) is that the cases come out hotter than from a bolt-action fired at a similar rate.

I do not do much dinking around when firing a single group from any rifle when at the range, so shoot any sort of action as rapidly as possible while aiming as precisely as possible. The fact is that semi-auto cases get hotter, so much so that when I pick them up after shooting, say, 5 rounds in a minute they are still too hot to pick up comfortably, which is not the case with cases fired from a bolt rifle under similar conditions. And since I normally take at least 4-5 rifles to the range during any one session I have been able to make the comparison many times.

But my main point was that because of the heating of cases in semi-autos (for whatever reason) the chambers tend to get dry. Which is also the main point of my gunsmith friend, based on long experience with repairing semi-auto hunting rifles.

Perhaps I was out of line in my last suggestion, but I have been reading your posts on several subjects since you have started posting on the Campfire and so far many have also assumed that the other posters know nothing and you know all.

And thank you too.

While not a semi-auto, I've noticed the cases coming out of my Remington 760 (pump) are signifficantly hotter than that coming out of my bolt guns. Least it seems that way to me. I do not know why.

All of this has brought out the investigator in me. I have some theories that I'll be testing soon.

Military developers have spent time measuring the amount of heat the fired cases remove from the chamber especially in machine guns. This is the issue that stopped further development of caseless ammunition.

You could go to a Hi Power match and measure temperatures on brass from the gas guns compared to bolt guns, at least if you can still find folks shooting .308/7.62.

jim

Jim,

Yeah, I came across that info about caseless ammo when doing some research.

Actually, what I will probably do is just go to the range with various rifles and do some timed shooting.

After thiking about this, I suspect one reason for the heat buildup is that the rear of the chamber of most semi-autos is more enclosed by the action than that of many other centerfires. This is obviously also the case with most pump guns.

A bolt gun, on the other hand, is much more open when the action is cycled, and even when shot quickly the next round isn't in the chamber as quickly, even when the rifle's being shot by somebody who can really work a bolt. I am pretty quick myself, and have been timed getting aimed shots off from a bolt a second apart, and would assume half that time involved getting the next round in the chamber. A half-second is a lot slower than 1/10th of a second, or however long it takes to a sem-auto takes to cycle.

One thing I have also noticed over the years is how quickly many single-shot rifles cool down compared to even bolt rifles. This is partly because I've done a lot of prairie dog shooting with various single-shots, including Ruger No. 1's, Brownings and various break-open rifles. When you open a No. 1 the rear of the chamber is MUCH more exposed to air circulation than even a bolt rifle's chamber.

One thing I am a pretty fan of is empirical evidence, and from shooting I KNOW that the cases come out of semi-autos hotter than they do from other actions, at least after the first shot. Now I intend to find out why, or at least make the attempt.

One thing I forgot to note in any earlier post that is one of the reasons my gunsmith friend thinks the chambers of aemi-autos pit in humid climates is that the boys don't oil the chambers, as they do in bolt rifles, even if inadvertently, due to the chamber being harder to get at. A chamber that gets hot and is never oiled ain't a good thing in West Virginia!

I think the reason brass is so hot coming out of a semiauto is because it doesn't have much time to transfer any of the heat into the steel of the chamber.

That just might be part of the reason. Thanks for the idea!

At an Army range, the guy next to me fired his M-14 and the ejected case hit me in the face and caught under my helmet strap. I finally clawed it out and it left a nice (temporary) mark. Hurt like hell. Just wasn't my day.

Somebody on our range once had a hot semi-auto case go down his short collar. He did quite a dance!

I was shooting my AR15 (in sitting position) to the left of a guy who had trouble keeping his pants up. Part way through a course of fire I sent a hot case right down the crack. Lesson learned, and laughs enjoyed!

Back in 1979 in Boot Camp, all us southpaws had burn blisters and scabs on our faces, often the same shape as a sideways 5.56mm casing.

The M16A1 didn't have the brass deflector. The brass comes out hot enough to give a second degree burn.

On the rifle range, sometimes a casing from the shooter on your left would fly out and land on the back of your neck (prone). That'll test your concentration....grin

John, You need not "investigate" anything. I guess I just cannot understand that you cannot understand that the quicker a case is ejected from a rifle the hotter it will be.
There are no "theories" only facts as Physics and heat transfer are ruled by the laws of thermodynamics.
If you could cycle any action as fast as a semi-auto, the case would be just as hot, the barrel the same temp and heat transfer to the next round identical.
Insofar as "dry chambers", well they should be dry as should any rifle chamber. If the people who owned the rifles cleaned the chambers, they would have no problems. Every M-1 issued came with a tool that had as one of its functions,cleaning the chamber. I guess the military figured it out but the folks with the rusty chambers visiting your gunsmith have not. Perhaps semi-autos need a "clean chamber" warning lights to remind folks the way a "service engine soon" light does on their cars.

I assume nothing about others knowledge unless I know them (unlike you) but suggesting that a 200 gr bullet in a 300 Savage to be shot at ranges out to 250 or so is superior to a 150 TSX is just flat wrong AS MANY OF THE INFORMED WRITERS FOR WOLFE PUBLICATIONS HAVE PROVEN.(You might want to look at Roberta Scovill's Elk in the new issue of Rifle and see what she killed it with and how far away it was. HINT Barnes TSX 150 gr)

I'm trying to walk away but you just won't stop insulting me and questioning my grasp of Physics 101. There just is no mystery to this mystery. Semi-autos eject hotter cases, dry chambers in humid climates can rust, regardless of the action type, people who properly maintain their rifles don't have rusty bores or chambers. My three Ars, M-1, M-4 & M-8 (Remingtons), Merkel SR-1 and Benelli R1 as well as a pile of 1911s all are shot a lot and NONE have ever had a rusty chamber.
A simple pull through with a Hoppes bore snake with a bit of Kroil on a patch in the loop, after the hunt, will take care of the "dry chamber".
Another pull thru with a dry patch in the loop before the next hunt will restore the chamber to being properly dry.
Perhaps a chat with Mike Venturino who owns and shoots a slew of semi and full auto weapons would avoid testing any theories.

Regardless of further not to subtle "expert vs idiot" treatment, I am moving on.

oldsman1942,

Prior to this, the closest you came on this thread to even admitting that a case comes out out a semi-auto hotter than from any other action involved shooting one 5 times quickly. Other than that you claimed they wouldn't be hotter than cases fired in any other rifle. Now, suddenly, you say OF COURSE they come out hotter--and for reasons that were discussed by other people than you (including me) after your last post.

As for dry chambers, the gunsmith who told me about the pitted chamber problem was Melvin Forbes, the founder/owner of New Ultra Light Arms, who was a general gunsmith for many years before starting NULA. He knows quite a bit about rifles and how they work--and how they don't work. He was just stating the facts as he knew them. Apparently those facts offend you.

As for the 200-grain Speer thread, I just grew weary of you belittling anybody who wanted to shoot 200 Speers from his .300--or indeed any other bullet than a 150 TSX. The 200 Speer wouldn't be my first choice in the .300 Savage, but why not? It's a free country--unless, apparently, somebody doesn't believe in exactly the same bullet you do.

The reason Roberta Scovill used a Barnes TSX is because she is married to Dave and he loads all her ammo. Unless Dave is forced to (say, by a hunting invitation by some other bullet manufacturer) all he loads are Barnes X's.

Many years ago Dave told me the reason he only used X's was that none of the other staff writers used them. This wasn't exactly correct (I started using Barnes X's around 1990, for one) but one reason I believe he uses so many TSX's is that he has been a close friend of Randy Brooks for many years.

I have seen about 150 TSX's shot into animals (a good portion of which I shot myself) and they are good bullets but they are not the only bullet in the universe, despite your opinion or anyody else's. In fact they even have disadvantages, though apparently you aren't aware of those, another little detail that makes me doubt your massive knowledge.

I don't think you are an idiot, because obviously you can type reasonable English. I do think you are arrogant, and believe there is one answer to everything: yours. That opinion is based not on a wild guess but many of the posts you have made on the Campfire.

Before you say what I said, I suggest you read my first post

"Heat generated by gas guns? These are not ARs, there is no gas in the chamber except the slight residual amount long after the bullet has left. An autoloader clears the case (and the heat) much faster than any other action. Rough maybe, pitted well that's lousy maintenance."

What part of the case and the heat was unclear?

Insofar as TSX "disadvantages" they are accurate, poke two holes in game, break bones and don't come apart. This Mulie was taken on the 9th at 80 yards, offhand, from a 99R with 130 TTSX starting out at 2800. Two holes, , two broken ribs, wrecked the lungs, left a 2" exit hole, she went 20 yards spraying blood like a power washer.



I hardly believe there is only one answer, but there are some that are some better than others. I still am at a loss as to why you have to "shoot the messenger" rather than being able to list any facts to support your position that autoloaders are at some disadvantage due to the fact that they are autoloaders. I really don't care about your gunsmith's resume', what I care about is answering why an autoloader MIGHT have a slightly higher chance to have rust in the chamber than a bolt gun. The answer was and is simple: people are not cleaning the chambers. If you can refute that with factual data, I'll listen eagerly.

Finally, in polite conversation, it is not necessary to preface every opinion or fact cited with: "Well, I could be wrong, I have been wrong in the past, you may not agree with me and you might be right, BUT this is what I believe."

I haven't noticed it in your opinions and feel no need to add it to mine.

On some other websites, gunwriters are constantly ridicules as paid off pawns of sporting goods companies, outfitters etc..
I don't share that opinion as most of the stuff I read is reasonable and usually well supported. I await the detailed article in Rifle, supporting the thesis that autoloaders are inherently prone to chamber corrosion and that a hot case on the ground is worse than a hot one in the chamber.

As this thread is fast becoming a "mine is bigger than yours" contest and thread is prefaced with your name, I think it's time for me to get back to the threads where things are more relaxed.

Good shooting!

A couple of thoughts: Perhaps because extraction on a semi-auto action starts almost instantly after firing, the case may not be done contracting enough to avoid some friction that a manual action may not experience. Also, the case is snatched out of the chamber while that area is still full of 500+(?)degree gas causing a blast of super-hot gas to pass along the chamber walls which would tend to cook away any residual lubricant/corrosion protection. Since the temperature in the throat goes from sky-high all the way back down to ambient in just a few minutes, the temperature-drop curve during the first few tenth's of a second must be pretty dramatic.

I agree with Mule Deer's statements and my limited observations agree with his. Thank you, everybody, for your thoughtful inputs, especially JB.

Oldman1942,

I thought you were out of this?

Do you know of any .30-06 aemi-autos that are NOT gas operated?

Here is an example of your "unbiased" opinion about bullets:

"Well you are free to believe whatever you want about Barnes. The guys I know have killed 100s of head of Deer, Elk, Antelope, Moose, Goats, Sheep and Bear with Xs, TSXs, TTSXs & MRXs. We have tried every hunting bullet under the sun (some of them are even older than me) and there is nothing better.
No animal has EVER been lost and almost all were one shot kills."

This is from a recent thread on the Campfire.

So you shot a muley doe with a TSX and it died. Whoopee. I have shot something around 100 animals with super-pentrating hollow-points, including the Barnes X (from the original to the "blue meanie" to the TSX and the Fail Safe). Every darn time the bullet went into the right place it killed the animal, almost always with one shot. Amazing! The only problem was, sometimes they went a long ways before keeling over, especially deer-sized animals.

I have also done the same thing with a whole list of other bullets. When did super-penetration become The Anwser, especially on snimals the size of muley does? If that were the case, we'd be shooting solids.

Over the past decade I have paced off the distance to where every well-shot (center of heart-lung area) animal eventually fell over. The animals shot with super-pentrators went over 50 yards, on average. Those shot with bullets that expanded wider (and even lost some weight!) fell quicker, because the hole inside them was bigger.

You are fond of throwing around words like "physics" and "thermodynamics" as if we common people won't understand them. Well, one basic fact of physics is that penetration of a big game bullet is mostly due to a smaller frontal area, NOT retained weight. A smaller frontal area makes a smaller hole, which means that average animals don't die as quickly. A deep-penetrating bullet is most useful on really big animals.

Which is exactly why, after 15+ years of using bullets like the Fail Safe, Barnes X, etc., I have gone back to using bullets like the common lead-core bullets (that cost half as much) for shooting deer. They kill quicker, on average. In fact, the quickest-killing bullets I have used on deer-sized game has been Berger VLD's, which open up violently.

Also, hollow-point "super penetrators" don't open up on occasion. I have seen this a number of times not just with X's but Fail Safes (and a lot of HP varmint bullets). Out of 150 TSX's I have seen used big game, 6 did not open.

Even though they didn't open, they still killed the animal, as of course they have to, but not nearly as quickly as an "inferior" lead-cored bullet would have.

I do not write for RIFLE anymore, after writing for the magazine for over 15 years, due to a disagreement with the new owner (who bought it a couple of years ago) about such basic things as pay. But I have written about this very subject, with lots of back-up info, for RIFLE and several other magazines.

Johnson M1941 is a short recoil operated, semiautomatic rifle.
you want more?


I don't worry about what bullets cost, I worry about how they perform. I've been at it 52 years on my own dime so endorsing a product for a free trip is not on my list.

New issue of Rifle is excellent, especially that Elk killed with the puny 7X57 and a 150 TSX.

BTW, I chroned 10 7x57s loaded with W 760, CCI 250s and 120 TSXs.
5 had been kept nice and warm in the 68 degree house, 5 in the 15 degree barn. Average velocity variation was 3 fps. Don't think that is statistically significant. (another "fancy term" you can look up at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statistical_significance)

Adios

What is the "statistical" probability of you wearing out your welcome here as you have with every other forum. I'm betting high.

What was the temperature of the rifle in each case?

I don't have a dog in this fight, and I don't want to have a dog in this fight. However,

I've been in the military for 33 years on and off, and would bet the reason the chambers of the semi autos are more pitted is because, until the recent advent of the bore snake and similar, it was too much of a pain in the butt to run a patch through from the chamber side of a rifle, and every gun rag written speaks of cleaning from the muzzle end as if it were the work of Satan.

Bolt actions: remove bolt, swab, repeat as necessary, replace bolt. Easy as pie.

Why then, you ask, don't the chambers in M-16s and M-4's rust and pit? Two reasons. One, that rifle is easy to take apart and clean from the chamber end of the barrel, and two, we're driven to clean our weapons if not daily, at least often.

And, hot gasses blown back in the chamber for semi-autos would dry out the chamber faster, requiring cleaning more often, which, as mentioned is a pain in the butt without a bore snake. Dry chamber left from year to year = pitted chamber.

Excellent reply JB, but do keep your cool. Oldman1942 is a younger man(?) than me and I'd love to shave a couple of years off the calendar, but I do manage to do my yearly trailcrew work in National Forests with the National Smokejumper Association.

+1 on this one!

Ah, excuse me Oldman1942, but are you a currently certified jackass or just working toward this level?

This thread is crazy. I just read it and don't see where there is even an argument. Stardard cup and core bullets kill deer quicker in general, period. Semi auto's throw hot brass, period.

Mule deer, I would be interested to see what the folks at Remington have to say about the auto's hot brass. I have polished a lot of chambers for these rifles and stressed to the owners to use that bent handled brush Remington supplies to clean the chamber after shooting. I also wonder about timing on these rifles. Does the case start extracting while there is still pressure/heat in the barrel. When pressure is low enough but hot gas can slip along the outside of the case?

Bravo, for the voice of reason. RTFI and clean the chamber....no problems.

As a good article on push vs controlled feed in the new Rifle pointed out, AR type semi autos extract and eject perfectly,
WHEN THEY ARE MAINTAINED. I have run 500 in an afternoon through my DPMS 308 16" TAC without a hiccup. Same with a REM/UMC, I'm sure.
Same is also true of gas op. semi shotguns, let your 1100 get all nasty and it will stop working too.

Let's hear something from folks who actually run semi gas operated rifles. All I know is my pile of them are always cleaned and always work. (So does my buddy's 270 WCF Johnson but.....)

I started my highpower shooting with a DCM Garand and we were told by our coach to wear a hooded sweatshirt under our leather shooting jacket.
One of the reasons was that if you are shooting your rapid fire at 300 yds. and hot 30-06 brass goes down the back of your collar it is a little distracting to say the least!
It is not just the brass that gets hot either!
After two strings of rapid fire I got up once from prone and used the barrel as a walking stick to stand up. The barrel was nice and toasty as well.
I don't have any figures to back it up but after the Garand is fired the brass is not in the chamber long enough to transfer much heat to the chamber of the barrel, which is already hot anyway in rapid fire.
We were also taught that at 600 yd slow fire if we did not fire the rifle within a few seconds we should eject the round because the heat from the chamber would cause the round to change impact on the target. It would keep you out of the 10 ring in other words.
I was always amazed by how well iron sighted rifles can shoot at 600 yds and all the deer rifle shooters need a scope?

Anyone who has never tried it should try a Garand at six hundred yards sometime, it is a hoot!
PS I won a match using Nosler Ballistic Tips once.

whelennut

IMO, you get the most out of a 30-06 by shooting it. No question, it can and has handled every game animal in the Western Hemisphere and certainly in the rest of the world. Use proper bullets and decent loads and you can't go wrong (if you hit the target).

Two things,

1. I have a burn scar on my arm in the shape of a .30-06 case from my M-1 Garand. Does that make me an expert on how hot cases are from autoloaders?

2. I have a Remington LA that started life as a .30-06. Over the years, I have replaced almost everything that can be replaced, and when I was deciding what to rebarrel to, I realized that I didn't have another .30-06 hunting rifle. The choice was made. There is no way I will ever be without one. If I have to sell all my other rifles, the last one left will be an '06. Thanks for a great article.

Fast Ed

Glad you liked it!

Thanks,
John

Mule Deer,

I did come up with one question last night when going over my loading data that I have developed over the years. What barrel length were your velocity figures derived from? My '06 had a slow 22" barrel before I changed it. I now have a 24" that hasn't had enough ammo down it to determine if it is fast or slow. My velocity from my old barrel, however, doesn't come close to what you get, with the same or very similar powder charges and bullets. Losing 40 or 50 fps per inch of barrel would put my velocities at least in the same neighborhood as yours if all your data is from 24" barrels.

I have also started using some of the Ramshot powders, but not with the '06 yet. This article gives me all the motivation I need for a winter loading project. Thanks again.

Fast Ed

My .30-06 data is almost all from 24" barrels these days. I don't have anything against 22" barrels, that's just the way my collection of '06's has worked out. I do have one 21" barreled .30-06 but don't shoot it as much as the others.

I have owned at least one really slow .30-06 that I can recall, an FN Mauser military rifle that got 150-200 fps less than most commercial .30-06's with the same loads.

Mule Deer,

I am about to start reloading for my BAR 30-06 Lightweight with a 22" Bbl. I read your article "Getting The Most Out of Your .30-06" and noticed that you had a BAR in the .30-06 could you give me any ideas about loading for one. I guess I am probably more concerned with pressure signs and it being an automatic. I have read some conflicting threads from folks saying that they would stick to factory fodder only and not try to reload for one.

Thanks,
Jeff

I've never had any trouble with factory ammo in BAR's, but have had a little trouble with handloads when I got over-enthustiastic with slow-burning powder once or twice. BAR's are fine rifles but aren't bolt actions. In .30-06 they work great with factory-equivalent loads, especially using medium burning-rate powders.

How about actions like the 760 Remington ? I presume they are similar to a degree. By which, they would be OK with any powder, even the slowest butning, as long as the pressures are kept at the factory levels ?
I'm currently working up loads wuith 220 gr. bullets. Have been using H4350, and will be trying H4831.
Any ideas or comments ? E

I have never encountered problems loading for 760's. I have only owned 3 (.270, .30-06 and .35 Whelen) but they all handled loads that I've used in bolt rifles, such as 60 grains of H4831 and a 130 in the .270, or 57-58 grains of IMR4350 and a 165 in the .30-06.

Then again, I long ago quit trying to make a .30-06 into a .300 magnum.

Thanks JB. E

Hi,
Friends.
Jennie
<a href"www.24hourcampfire.com> www.24hourcampfire.com ubbthreads[/url]

John,
i am a fan of the 30-06 also but here lately i have tried without any success at reloading .223 with sabots i my 30-06.
the best pattern i can get is about 4" at 100yds.
i am using hornady .223 vmax polymer tip @ 55gr. my powder is imr4831 with win. large rifle magnum primers. i have loaded all loads with 50gr of powder---4 inch group, then loaded w/52gr----4inch group, then 54gr----not even on the paper.
do you have any loads for this round or any suggestions.

John,

I'm already compressing loads with my 06 but would like a tad more speed.

How much more speed will I get (approx.) if I go to a mag primer? I'll make sure to back the load down and work back up to max to see if she shoots ok, I just am wondering if it's worth trying.

Spot

Barry,

Sorry, I've never tried to handload saboted bullets in the .30-06, or any other centerfire rifle round.

Where are you getting the sabots?

spotshooter,

In my experience magnum primers don't produce all that much more velocity, maybe 20-40 fps, depending on the load.

You'd probably gain more by going to a denser powder.

JB,

Which one's do you recommend I'm using RL 22 for my 06 today.

Thanks!

Mike

Any large rifle primer will work.

Sorry I meant what powder would you recomment that might give me more speed but take up less space, I'm already compressing the RL-22 but would like a bit more speed.

Spot

What bullet weight?

180 Grain bullets.

Thanks,
Spot

Hi, i have been a member her for some time and I am curious as to where I can find the article about getting the most from your 30-06 ? Thanks,Craig

Spotshooter,

In the past couple of years I've been using Ramshot Hunter with 180-grain bullets in the .30-06. 58 grains normally gives top velocities and great accuracy.

bcraig,

PM me your regular e-mail address and I'll e-mail you the article.

Here it is:

http://www.24hourcampfire.com/newsletters/May_2009.html

-Bob F.

John, does this load or Hunter in general show velocity loss in cold weather? Also, do you think that the 1-12 my 06 has could be the reason why 165's are more accurate than 180's?

Roy

Hunter is pretty good in cold so far in my tests. A 1-12 twist should be plenty to stabilize even a very long 180.

Dear Mr. Barsness....First of all, I enjoyed that Amer Rifleman Article on the Model 70 immensely...My pre 64 30/06 serial#653xx from 1947 (?) is exactly as you have described in that article...I adj. the trigger to 3lb...tightened the front action screw to 40lb...rear screw to 30lb and the middle screw to 25lb.....when I can hold steady, groups rarely exceed 3/4" with Nosler 150gr Ballistic Tips and IMR 4350 powder...OK....Is Ramshot Hunter temp insensitive..??? I noticed in the article photos you used a CCI 250 MAG primer....Ramshot powders need magnum primers..???
I want to switch over to the Ramshot powders for their clean burning.... ALSO, I am having a devil of a time trying to get Nosler 150gr. Partitions to shoot well in both the Model 70 AND my Ed Brown Marine Sniper 308Win.....150gr Ballistic tips shoot into one hole from both rifles....???? The partitions sort of fly all over the place..????? 1 to 2 inches...??
Have tried IMR4350 in the '06 and RL 15 & Varget in the .308......I CAN'T get the Partitions to group well..????
Whad'dya think..???
Thanks
Pete

Often Ramshot powders will shoot best with magnum primers. It's certainly one of the things I try if standard primers don't get the results I want.

Sometimes Partitions don't shoot as well as Ballistic Tips int the same rifle, though often they do, or close to it. Hard to beat RL-15 and Varget in the .308, and usually IMR4350 is pretty good in the .30-06 as well. You might try Ramshot Big Game with 150's in the .30-06, or 165 Partitions and IMR4350.

What are you planning to hunt with the 150's?

Dear Mr. Barsness...Thank you for the help....I'll give the magnum primers a try with the Ramshot Powders.....I live in New York City and hunt in the Catskill Mountains....mainly deer and bear....we have, lately, quite a few bears.....their population in southern NY and northern NJ is growing the last 10-12years...and they go 200 to 400 lbs.....My hunting partner bagged one last month...black bear close to 300lbs dressed out.....he used a Marlin 45/70 with Hornady lever-revolution 350grain...the range was only 30yards in dense woods and the bear absorbed FOUR shots...ALL thru the chest/shoulder....one bullet was recovered..the front half was gone....the other three completely penetrated thru the bear...broadside shots thru chest/shoulder.....that's wht I want to use the partitions...the chances of running into a fairly large black bear are VERY high here.....

I just purchased a used hunting BAR in 30-06 and would like some suggestions on ideal loads for this gun. It is a Belguim made gun and I would prefer 110gr to 150gr bullet weights.

sargeny1,

Well, then, another question: How far as you shooting at deer?

264wm,

I would look at either of the 4895's (IMR or Hodgdon) for that range of bullet weights. 4895 was developed for 150-grain loads in the .30-06, and works very well for lighter bullet weights.

Dear Mr. Barsness.....As far as distance....some parts of the woods are dense and the shots are from 25 to 75yards max...B U T....there a LOT of open areas where you can get a shot out to 250-300 yards....that is why I will not use a traditional "woods" rifle.....30/30....35Rem....MANY times I have shot deer there out to 250yds..the ballistic tips work well....BUT...now with all these bears running around....and there are quite a few here in southern NY and northern NJ...NJ hasn't had a bear season in a LONG time and the population is spilling over into NY....That is why I'd like to go to the Nosler Partition Bullet.....

sargeny1,

One option would be to try the 165 Partition and IMR4350 or H4350 in the .30-06. For all practical purposes this will shoot as flat as the 150 at the ranges you are shooting, and will be plenty for bears. I have also found the 165 easier to get to shoot accurately than the 150 Partition.

I also wouldn't worry too much if you don't get sub-inch accuracy. Three shots inside 1-1/2" at 100, on average, is plenty accurate enough for 350-yard big game hunting, believe me.

If you really want fine accuracy and a great compromise bullet for deer and bear, I would look at the 180 Ballistic Tip. This has a very heavy base on the jacket these days, and will retain just almost as much weight as a 180 Partition. But the front end will also expand very violently and put deer down quickly.

A lot of deer hunters think a 180 in the .30-06 is too much for deer, or won't shoot flat enough at ranges past 250 yards, but neither is true, especially with a 180 with a high ballistic coefficient like the Ballistic Tip. Any powder in the IMR4350 to H4831/RL-22 burn rate range will work well, but I have gotten great accuracy and velocities with Ramshot Hunter in a number of .30-06's.

Dear Mr. Barsness....
OK...will try the 165 Partition/4350/Big Game AND the 180 Ballistic Tip/Hunter combos......to be honest,I wanted to stay with 150grain re RECOIL....those 180grain slam back hard in my relatively light pre '64 M70 with its STEEL buttplate.....
Ya know...just when ya thought ya had it all woked out...the 150 ballistic tips work FINE for deer in my 30/06 & 308...BUT..now with all these bears runnin' around.....
Thank you again....
Pete

Gotcha on the recoil. You could try some 150-grain Nosler AccuBonds, which work like Partitions on game but are normally as accurate as Ballistic Tips. I use them myself in my .308 with Varget. They shoot great and penetrate very well. They would probably work with the same loads you're using with BT's, as essentially they are just bonded Ballistic Tips.

Dear Mr. Barsness....AHHHH...OK...I never thought of the accubonds....150's in BOTH the 30/06 and .308..?? The 4350's and Big Game with the 150 accubonds in the '06..??? I'm gonna switch to TAC for the .308 with the 150 accubonds...

Will also give the 165gr Partitions a try too...

Thank You for your speedy replies...!!!!
Pete

Mr Barsness..
Fusions and accubonds. I don't reload, can buy 165 accubonds in custom ammo, and of course the fussions from dealers. Personally I feel they are missing the boat by not coming out with 150 or 165 in the 30-06 accubonds, now only available is 180gr.
Question is performance between these two.
180 for Elk
165 mule deer
150 for smaller deer
I've been using the 150 fusion on Michigan deer and satisfied with the results. Just curious if the accubonds out-preform the fusions or are they close being the same... Thanks

The 150 Fusions will open a little wider so the 150 AB's will penetrate a little deeper. But in my opinion you could shoot a lot of deer for many years and never notice much difference.

I remember the same study. They also ruled out the 458 due to recoil and slower follow up shots.

When I was a fishing guide one guy would have a 12 gauge riot gun for night use and another a rifle and everyone a pistol 44mag or heavy45 Colt usually. Never needed to use it but came close several times.

For guiding a longer going away shot is as likely as a close in shot and the 375s or 416s are what I would want if in that position. But if you handle a 458 well it would do the job. And it would be the best stopper of the bunch. I would load it down with 450-480 grain slugs.

Friends working gold claims like the Marlin guide gun for it's portability and power with Buffalo Bore or Garret ammo. But the range limitations make it not as good for guiding.

Ringworm:John,
I am at a loss as to how someone can write an entire aticle about the 30-06 and never once utter the words "core-lokt".




100% agreed

I read the first couple pages and grew tired but just FYI I still and will as long as they make them, hand load 180 and 220 grain round nose for my 06' Speer, Hornady, Sierra who ever. And when I get to it I'm going to work up a load for 170 gr flat points that are typically used in 30-30's Not everyone shoots at game a mile away.

Wow! 17 pages...:)

My two cents is Sierra, Speer, Hornady, Corelokts, Power Points, Silvertips (albiet a tad soft) are all cup and core and about the same if you push them at under 2800 FPS..I have seen few failures..Drive them at 3000 plus and you might get a blow up from time to time..I like them for deer size game and wouldn't get down and out if I had to use them on elk or plainsgame.

MY favorite for no particular reason other than I have had successes with them are Sierra, Speer, Hornady, Corelokts, power points and Silvertips! actually depends on what caliber I use them in..I love the RN 180 gr. corelokts in my 308 Sav. 99, I love the 165 Hornady interlocks in the same rifle for elk..Gimme a 130 Speer in a 7x57 or 284 for deer and even push it to 3000 FPS if you wish. My favorite cup and core bullets are Sierras for the most part, cheap and affordable and they work well indeed at 2700 or less in most all calibers. Powerpoints are another all time favorite..

My favorite all time bullet for anything has to be the Nosler partition in any caliber over .270..but not under..

If I was limited to one gun and one bullet it would be the 30-06 with a 180 gr. Nosler partition at 2700 FPS..I would hunt anywhere in the world and shoot anything on the planet with that if you would allow me a pocket full of solids to up the anti.:)

Damn sure a lot of good bullets out there today, the bullet manufacturers have done a super job and they just get better. The premium and super premium market is oozing with great bullets, and that is a pretty darn good investment for any hunter. A $2.00 bullet on a $10,000 hunt ain't a bad idea, or a free hunt for that matter.

"If I was limited to one gun and one bullet it would be the 30-06 with a 180 gr. Nosler partition at 2700 FPS..I would hunt anywhere in the world and shoot anything on the planet with that if you would allow me a pocket full of solids to up the anti.:)"

Jeff Cooper used to write about his major big game hunting expeditions in the US and Africa. He was a 2 gun man. The first was a .30-06 with 180 NPTs at 2700. He used the -06 for the vast majority of his hunting. The gun he used for the remainder was a .458. He said he could not justify any stops in between as the -06 could take care of anything that didn't require the .458.

Expat

AMEN
Shoot stuff with thee aforementioned load and it is DEAD. I use Nosler Partitions for 99% of my big game hunting.

Dear Mr. Barsness....Have been following your writings re Ramshot powders for 30/06...I have Nosler 165 Partitions inbound...OK..which powder..Big Game or Hunter..???? Starting Load for each..??? Use a Magnum primer also..???? Thank You...

I would try Hunter first, starting with around 56 grains. Probably about 60 will be max, with muzzle velocity 2900 or a little more, depending on your barrel.

Often Ramshot loads do work better with a magnum primer. The Ramshot manual lists a Winchester Large Rifle primer with their .30-06 data, and the WLR is about the hottest standard primer available.

JB

I have a particularly finicky 06. It throws different loads all over the place. It's a thin barreled commercial Mauser that measures .590 at the muzzle. I have had my best luck with a 165 Hornady btsp and IMR3450. I've tried H4350, but that was with 165gr Nosler bt with no luck (poor accuracy). The bt's I couldn't seat close to the lands and I'm sure that had an adverse effect. I need to revisit the H again with the Hornady's, but with that being said:

What would you suggest as a temp insensitive powder, for a finicky rifle, that might give the best accuracy? Something comparable to IMR4350 accuracy wise. What would be your first choice.?

I mention the finicky part because this is a rifle that will not shoot accurately with just any load. With the 165s and IMR4350 it's sub moa. With factory 180 corelokts it throws a three to four inch pattern. I've done enough load development with 180's to realize that it prefers 165gr bullets.

Your thoughts would be appreciated.

fish head

THANK YOU, MR. B.....!!!!!

fish head,

I had a 98 Mauser .30-06 with a real lightweight barrel and it was the same way, despite the action being blueprinted and everything.

Given the results you've already gotten, I'd try H4350. Most of the time it will give accuracy results comparable to IMR4350, but it's far less temp-sensitive.

Thanks JB

That's about what I thought. I've read through all your stuff on temp sesitive powders and 06's. I figgered I'd get your opinion to try and save buying an unnecessary pound of powder.

I have H4350, but I've yet to try the partcular bullet, oal, etc. that I've found to work with IMR4350. The other thing I hadn't done before was load up to the equivalent powder charge/velocity that I'm at now - 57.5 gr IMR3450. I'll bump the charge with H4350 a little beyond 57.5 and see what happens. I know it needs a little more H than IMR to get there.

Thanks again,

fish head

Not necessarily. H4350 used to be consistly a little slower than IMR4350, but since Hodgdon bought IMR I have noticed that the burning rate tends to be very similar in recent lots. That's reflected in Hodgdon's data as well.

Is the IMR slower now?

Most data is pretty similar for both powders. And "slowness" varies with both cartridge and bullet weight....

Very interesting,

I do a lot of reading here and on other sites and I can't recall seeing that mentioned before. Good info.

One question. About what year did you notice or become aware of this? The reason I'm asking is that the bottle of H that I have is about six years old.

I'm sure others would like to know too.

Thanks,

fish head

In the past year or two--partly because i get a new copy of the Hodgdon Annual Manual every year, and read it.

Your lot probably is slower than most IMR4350.

Thanks JB

Once again you are the man in the know.

I appreciate the info.

fish head

Hello all, new here and wanted to ask a few questions myself. I am fairly new at reloading since factory ammo has gone crazy around here. Been hunting all my life, just bought the factory stuff.

I wanted to develop a load for my Ruger Hawkeye 30-06 using Speer 200gr Sp. I have some R22 on hand and a friend has stated its would be a good choice for the bullet.

After reading the article and seeing H4831 being used in a ruger if that would be a better way to go?

My other question I have is H4831 the same load data for H4831SC?

I have Fed, Hornady, R+P, and W-W brass on hand.
I also have Winchester LR primers.

By the way I really appreciated the article on O.A.L cleared alot of questions I had about how to find the right seating depth!

I hunt deer and Black bear mostly still looking for my moose though!

Thanks ans great forum,
Bob

Bob,

Welcome to the Campfire!

Reloder 22 is also a fine powder with 200-grain bullets in the .30-06. I would only use H4831 instead if you hunt quite a bit in real cold, as H4831 doesn't lose much velocity (if any) in temperatures down around zero, while RL-22 tends to. This won't make any practical difference in "killing power" but it can change the point of impact of the load.

The same loading data can be used with H4831SC and H4831.

Thanks, I don't really hunt the extreme cold. Most of my hunting is done between 60 degrees and 20 degrees.

What sort of accuracy should I consider acceptable for this bullet?

I have experimented with some 180gr Accubonds and have gotten good groups averaging around 1 1/4" at 100 yards. Sometimes I'll shoot a 3/4" group. I'd be very happy to get a good consistant 1 moa @ 100.

Think that would be good out to 300 yards?

Thanks
Bob

Has anyone used the 240 grain Sierra on game?

Lots of long range hunters have, but in the big capacity 30's not in the 06 to my knowledge, but I'm not JB

Not that I know of either in the .30-06.

The only 240 I could see a rational use for in the .30-06 is the Woodleigh.

John,

I have a friend who decided to become a long-range hunter with his then new .300 RUM, and he started working up heavy bullet loads for the rifle. By the time he got to 240 gr bullets diminishing returns had definitely set in.

I remember back in the day when I was shooting on one of the Navy teams that we explored heavier bullets in the .308 Win/7.62X51, and weights over 190 gr showed the same effects.

jim

John...very generous to use your time responding/debating all of us!

I have a Steyr Professional, plastic version of their standard wood bolt actions in 30.06 & 7x57 - the .06 shoots 150g to 200g all in a 3" group at 100yrds - each respectiive load grouping 1/2 to 1 1/4".

My question is that with 180g TSX using 60g RL19, WW case, WW primer, it groups about the same as a 180g Winchester factory load and about 1" lower than a 165g Winchester load.

There are no over-pressure signs though this .06 seems to digest any load and eject with no issues anyway.

60G of RL19 really fills the case with a little crunching during bullet seating. Do you feel there would be overpressure concerns at temperature extremes to either direction?

Also-not quite an .06 question other than this scope is mounted on the Steyr - I find that an older Swarovski NOVA 30 mm scope in 1.5x6 is the easiest scope to aquire a picture with very little wiggling. Everyone who has shot it sez the same thing.

The 7x57 has a German Zeiss 3x9 and it seems to need a little eye centering to see a complete scene. Is there something unique about 30mm scopes that makes the less critical view possible?

Hi John,
Just got back from testing some loads in my Rem. pump, '06. I partial re-sized, as in your article. An elder gentleman said that he thought cartridges for pumps should be fully resized.

So.... Partial, or Full sizing on my previously fired brass in my Rem. 7600, pump??

Thanks!! Ken

Hi Ken,
why not try it both ways and see what works best for you? Cuz that's what it boils down to, anyway.

Try 10 cases full length resized, 10 partial, from a bench..
If you don't find a difference in terms of difficulty of extraction, then partial resize. The more you resize a case, the more you work-harden the brass, shortening case life. You may see an accuracy difference too, maybe not.

Re: grvj post 60g RL19 load - info is for a 165g Barnes TSX bullet - not 180g

John,
Your article on the 30-06 made me go buy one. I have been a 270 and 300 magnum guy. My question for you is, what bullet for elk with a maximum range of 400 yards (and that would be pushing the envelope for me). thanks for your insights and time.

Any of the premiums from 165 up will do the job really well, and the monolithic 150's such as the Barnes TSX, Nosler E-Tip and Hornady GMX.

Most of us make too much of relatively minor differences in bullets. Along with about every kind of big game bullet Nosler makes (including Ballistic Tips) I have seen elk killed with premium bullets from (alphabetically) Barnes TSX's to Trophy Bonded Bear Claws. They all worked well. In fact about any cup-and-core 180 will do the trick in the .30-06, even at fairly steep angles. The Hornady Interlock in particular is darn good.

thanks for your input. I will likely use a 180 Gr premium because I am going to be paying big $$$ for a guided hunt and not going to take any chances. However, I have seen the hornady interlock at work as well..dead elk. thanks again

There is no sense in paying a ton for a hunt and using par equipment. Kudos to you
30.06 is one of my go to rifles.

4rds just over half inch @ 100yd (30.06) with IMR 4350 and Hornady Interlock
Could ya ask for more from a factory barrel?

I came across this informative thread while looking for info on the 30-06 and elk killing bullets. I recently acquired a 30-06 and intend on using it for my elk hunt this year and will hopefully find the right accuracy with either the 165 gr GMX, Interbond, or Accubond. I'm wondering if I shouldn't have gone with the 180 gr but the bullets have been bought and if I find acceptable accuracy with one of them it's what I'll be using. Ive got h4350 and imr 4830 at hand as well as Fed and CCI primers. And, from reading I feel the 165 grainer in a premium bullet will do it's part if I do mine. I'd really love to read this article and joined the mailing list and am hoping it's not to late to get it sent.

Thanks John for you answers in this thread and I look forward to reading your article.

I have a two part question; I own a Ruger #1 RSI with a 20" barrel. How much velocity am I really loosing with the 2" shorter than norm barrel. I have posed this to Hornady and they told me maybe 50 FPS. Does that sound about right? What if any powders can I use that may perform better in a slightly shorter barrel giving me optimum velocity? I using the good ol IMR 4064 and 4350 combinations still.

50 fps would be about right. On average most centerfire barrels will lose 25 fps per barrel.

The same powders that provide top velocities in onger barrels will provide the top velocities in shorter barrels.

One other general rule is that the least veliocity loss will come with slower-burning powders and heavier bullets.

Good morning, JB. Got to try out your H4831 loads with the Nosler 200 gr. Partition the other day. 59 grs. didn't shoot too well with WW cases and WLR primers. Say 1.7 inches. Not great, but I can and have hunted with worse. 57 grs. did .63. And 58 grs. did .42 ! Wow ! Had good luck with your 58 gr. Ramshot Hunter loads too. The Sierra 180 gr. GameKing doing .77 inches while the 180 gr. NP did the same at 58.5 grs.
Thanks for the ideas. They sure work well. E

Glad to hear it.

Yeah, if you don't need every last bit of velocity, some rifles do shoot 200's better with a little less H4831. In fact I first started using H4831 and 200-grain Partitions back in the 1970's when the older-style Partitions still were "semi-spitzers" (round noses). If I recall correctly, they shot best with 58 grains for around 2575 from the old 1903 Springfield sporter I was shooting back then.

Accuracy was really good even from the less-than-perfect barrel from that old rifle, and the moderate velocity (and round nose) didn't matter at all because most of my elk hunting was being done in the really thick timber of northwestern Montana--where a long shot was 100 yards.

Did we discuss the best load for the 180 grain Hornady spire point?

JB-

I have a question about TSX bullets. In the Africa forum JJHack talked about the 165 grain TSX at 2900 fps giving superior performance to the 180 TSX in the 30-06. His observation was that the 165 gave plenty of penetration and the increased velocity resulted in a bigger hole and more tissue/organ damage.

What are your thoughts on this assuming that the load is being used for elk or similar sized animals? What about for deer sized animals?

Also, I'd like to say that I have really enjoyed your writing over the years. I subscribed to "Rifle" for many years and your in-depth articles were always the highlight for me. Unfortunately, the magazine has gone downhill since your departure.

Thanks for taking the time to respond to all the questions in this forum!

bowmanh

bowmanh,

I agree completely with JJHack. Generally more velocity is better with TSX's, and penetration will be plenty with a 165.

You might be interested in to know I am writing for Rifle and Handloader again. My first article just appeared in HL, and I'll have a feature in every issue.

Good to hear MD. I'll be looking for it. E

JB-

That's good news. I will be looking for it.

Rich

JB-

Terrific news. Also looking forward, as always, to anything you write.

A couple of years ago we were in Helena doing research next to the Capitol building. Just had to go stand on those steps. If I remember correctly, somewhere you'd recounted an event there. It involved a .25-35 WCF, a coyote at maybe a half-mile, a gentleman with a large hat, strong opinions, and a cigar. He "whittled away" at the coyote and allowed as how the cartridge was decent for varmints. (1920s?)

(By the way , Capitol Sports didn't have in stock any Model 94's in that caliber. Still, I managed to drop a few bucks there.}

I need to find the original source so I can quote and credit you correctly. Also a link to "John Barsness's latest exclusive column, "GETTING THE MOST OUT OF YOUR .30-06,"

(Forum readers: I'm sure JB is a very busy fellow, so anyone is welcome to post links to these two sources. Thanks!)

--All the best to you both from my wife and me, and our Montana relatives N. of Kalispell.


"The more I learn, the less I know I know."

Yippee. There a ton of writers who think they know the '06. You are about the only one I can read without wondering if these yokels have even one decade of first hand technical knowledge.

Wayne

That is the reason I just subscribed.


ddj

If you really want to read a BAD book on the 30-06, read "the 30-06" by Bob Shell. It costs $15 and comes with typos, misspellings, grammatical errors and factual errors. It is self- published by a vanity press, so I can't blame the publisher. Poorest $15 I spent on a long time.

J.B.

Your memory serves you well on the 200 Partition in the '06 with 4831. In Northwestern Montana and the Panhandle in the 50s and 60s the 200 Semi Spitzer and a case full of 4831 was the load of choice when hunting big bulls in the dark tangles.

Is the heavy TSX in 30-06 the equal? Hard to beat the momentum and bone crushing power of the 200 Partition for up close.

Older than dirt.

Wayne

I haven't done any penetration testing with the heavier TSX's next to 200 Partitions, but have with some other diameters and weights of both brands. TSX's will normally out-penetrate Partitions of the same weight and diameter, but the difference usually isn't much, and in some bullets almost nothing. Since I have never had any problems with penetration on any game with the 200-grain Partition, generally I haven't worried about it all that much.

I purchased a used Browning BAR 30-06 Belgium made rifle for $425 and while sighting in discovered that the bolt does not close all the way on firing. It seems to be very accurate so I took the fore stock off to see if there was dirt causing the problem. There seems to be a bushing on the spring shaft that has detiorated and some dirt and rust around the bolt. Does the spring weaken over time? Also does anyone know the best loads for this gun? I used 150 gr FMJ for sightin. The numbers are 69611 M9 on the barrel does anyone know the age of this rifle?

JB - re your last sentence - I'm shocked!

Let's see if I read this correctly.

Are you telling us that if something works well and is successful, you don't just change to something else just for the heck of it?

Or, did I read it wrong?

Pretty radical, huh?

I just signed up...how can I find this article from a few months ago?

thanks

You probably can't. Send me a private message with your regular e-mail address and I'll send you a copy.

I'm glad to hear that JB..........I'll start reading again.

MM

http://www.24hourcampfire.com/newsletters/

I think it was may of 09 on the link

First post; just wanted to say thanks for all the info on the old 06, I just aquired a nice Remington 30 Express Special and will start loading for it once I have had the pleasure of emptying enough cases.

Nice rifle!

I sighted in useing the peep insert, then removed it for my practice shooting, I'm getting there slowly but surely. Thanks again.




Eric

Okay JB, I've been shooting the 57 gr. IMR 4350 and 165 gr. Nosler Ballistic Tip load for 15 years now, never had any complaints. However, I'm tempted to use a 180 gr. on deer this fall, Ballistic Tip or Accubond, just to see if my rifle will shoot them well. It's a M70 FWT ss/walnut Classic that was finicky until I started with the load above. What are your powder recommendations for 180 gr. bullets in the .30-06?

Selmer,

Here is a link to the original article and he makes some great suggestions there:

http://www.24hourcampfire.com/newsletters/May_2009.html

I hope that new home/congregation/loading bench are treating you well,

efw

efw - Thanks! And yes, yes, and yes!!! They have provided us with a beautiful parsonage near the school and swimming pool for the kids, 150 seconds from the local public gun range, complete with man cave room right across the hall from the wife's quilting room in the basement, both adjacent to the downstairs family room and large fenced in backyard for the beagle and weimaraner. We've never had it this good! Plus I'm within two hours of my favorite fishing holes in NE South Dakota.

BTW, I've read more than once on Mule Deer mentioning Ramshot's Big Game with 150s in 30-06...he ain't lying! Ran some today in my old (July 1918) Winchester made 1917 Enfield and two groups went inside 3/4" at 100 yards. This was 58gr of said powder (usual caution applies), 150gr Hornady Interlocks, Remington brass, WLR primers.

John,

You said you used magnum primers (Federal 215) with the 165gr loads that were pressure tested (165 gr partitions and 58.5 gr IMR4350). How much velocity boost does the magnum primers give you over non-magnum primers for the same load?

Aldeer

It depends on the powder, cartridge and bullet, but usually the increase is 25-50 fps.

Mule Deer- Don't know if you saw my posts elsewhere, but thought I'd post some info here as well. Due to time constraints I didn't have much time to work up a 165gr Partition load and I only had R-15 on hand. SO, I did some extrapolating from Nosler #6 and checked it here with data Aussiegunwriter has posted. Nosler lists 56gr as Max for a 125gr and similar powders showed a 2gr reduction for max at 150gr and 2gr more reduction for 165gr bullets. Aussie's data had loads, IIRC, of up to 54gr with not notes indicating pressure. I loaded up tests at 51.5, 52 and 52.5. In shooting them a month a go, the 52gr load shot the best, but I didn't get pressure indicators from each of them. Here's 8 rounds of the 52gr load I shot yesterday:


Don't know how fast their going, but 1.5" high at 100yds had them grouping just below zero at 200yds. Should be fast enough for me! Just thought I'd pass along that info.

With this load and your 65gr 338 Win Mag load shooting 200/210gr bullets, I'm not sure I need to keep too many powders on hand.

Thanks for the info! Rl-15 is one of the great powders, very flexible. In fact I've also used it with 165's with very good results in the .300 Savage.

Once I get settled 1700 miles from where I now sit, I plan on trying to make it work in a 30-30.

Yeah, it works there too! The load I use in my .30-30 drilling combines RL-15 and the 170-grain Nosler Partition. It gets about 2350 fps from the 28" barrel, and excellent accuracy.

I really like the 200 gr. Nosler partition and the 200 gr. woodleighs, all things equal in the gun I can get the same velocity with the 200 gr. bullets as I can with the 180s, that is the accepted 2700 FPS anyway..The really kill well..

I also love the 220 gr. Noslers and Woodleighs and I have shot some really big stuff such as Cape Buffalo, Eland, and joined in on a big Lion that was wanting to eat our group..It really is a killer at about 2500 FPS in my rifle with the old Milsurp 4831 I have on hand and I can actually get 2600 FPS with that old stuff but see no need.

Just some thought into the versatility of the grand old 06, Mostly I use the 180 gr. Nosler partition at 2700 FPS and regulate the 200s and 220s to my 300 H&H, but don't over look these heavy bullets in the 06, they are simply awesome on everything from deer to whatever and I would not hesitate to shoot an elephant with a 220 gr. solid under decent conditions for a brain shot and thats usually doable, it will do the job and has killed many an elephant.

The 30-06 is an unbelievable cartridge, and all one has to do is try it, and they will agree..You would have to be a real armchair bandit to not appreciate the versatility and killing power of the 06 IMO...

using RL 19 I get approximately 2800 out of a 24 inch pre-64 M70 and 200 NP and 200 BBC...Swift A Frames are slightly less...this is my Moose and Elk load...

I�ve (3) three seven pound canisters remaining of military surplus from the load shack at Quantico but I cannot make it work with the 220 Nosler at those speeds. I�ve not had much luck pushing the 220 much beyond 2400fps without the accuracy falling apart and/or the pressure running too high. Have you had success with any consistent commercial powders and components to run the 220 upwards towards 2600fps out of a 23-24 inch barrel with good accuracy?? Looks like that would really crank the �06 up a notch.

Thanks!

You can easily break 2500fps and usually around 2550fps with a 22 inch barrel using 760 powder and the accuracy is commonly a perfect triangle at around .5MOA in the several .30/06's I have tried this load.

JW

PS: That surplus powder (4831) is the best powder I ever tried in the .340 Weatherby.

JW

Thanks JW,

This with the Noslers? How many grains 760 are you talking to see 2550fps from your 22-inch barrel??

Even that very conservative and careful writer Ken Waters was able to get 2600 out of the 220 in the .30-06 (well, 2595 anyway). He used the Sierra and Norma MRP.

220gn Woodleigh
57gn H 4350 for 2551fps 3180 .508"

220gn Sierra RN
56gn Win 760 2560
57gn Win 760 2605 1.2 MOA
57gn H 4350 2524 .556"
59gn H 4350 2603 Warm
51gn IMR 4350 2393
52gn IMR 4350 2403
52gn Rel 19 2170 .7" Mild


I tried both of the above. I have only used Nosler's up to 200 grains in the .30/06.

John

In usually ignore these type of threads,but being a long time .06 shooter, I can add that one who has done any amount of competition shooting using an M1 or an M1A and has not had a hot case down thier back is mighty lucky,as they are hot. I addition I don't see many comments about 220n gr RN as I use them except for the fact that they are not good past 300yds.That is a wives tale that I have debunked years ago.

I have not tried many of the new powders as a few years ago I used up the 42 cents a pound 4831 and bought a few 8lb jugs of the newer stuff. 6.5 and .06 get stuffed with it and the.308 gets 4064. Many yeads ago I got past the "buy a new rifle to get the optimum killing machine syndrome" and remain with the.06,with the occasional foray with a 44 mag or muzzle loader. This year it is muzzle loader and a 30-30 carbine, and maybe the 6.5 for a deer,but the .06 will be along for every trip

Thanks guys, I love the partitons and was interested in cranking the 220s up a notch. Was looking for some encouragement from anyone who got the Noslers to shoot well in the 2550-2600fps range. Maybe my Winchester barrel just doesn't like 'em. I've a Sako I may switch to, I'll give them a run in that and maybe I'll have better luck.

Thanks Again:)

The best news is that there are very few animals on this earth that can stop them.

JW

Using 4831 SC in the O6 I have been able to push the Nosler 220 grainers past 2600 fps. on another site several years ago, one of the forum members was asking about the max punch capable out of the O6...that peaked my interest, so I looked over tons of reload data and was noticing the low pressure of "max loads" using 4831 SC...and then higher charges used in old reload data...

So I got some surprising MVs out of an Enfield using tht powder and 200 and 220 grain bullets.... so I worked up and tried them in my Model 70, a Browning A Bolt, a Remington 700 and ended up with close to the same results..22 to 26 inch barrels...

I shared them with the forum and got flamed for pages upon pages...a few of the critics I asked if they were flaming me for having different results than 'they read about' or had they actually tried working up and seeing what they got..

well a few hardy souls actually quit being armchair ballisticians and went out and worked it up and behold got pretty much the same results.. so when they shared it they also got flamed..

critics were screaming about "pressure testing equipment????" and claiming the results must be having pressures that approach 80 and 90 thousand CUPS.. and my local range was looking at being the next Hiroshima when my 06 exploded and was telling me of all the people I was going to be responsible for killing and blinding post such irresponsible load data..

Finally one guy came on and supported what I had posted, and made the statement that ' one can not get enough 4831 SC in an 06 case to cause excessive and dangerous pressures'..

of course he became the next target for all the arm chair ballistics experts...with their immediate questions about "DID HE HAVE ANY PRESSURE TESTING EQUIPMENT TO SUPPORT HIS CLAIMS???"

His casual response was " well yes I do! If anyone wants to call me at my office phone and discuss this, please feel free to.." and he gave his phone number to call...and to ask for his name..

I noticed it had a 541 area code, just like mine here in Oregon...so I gave it a call... the operator answered " Hello, NOSLER Bullets, how may I direct your call??"

So I spoke to the gentleman, who was in their ballistic dept..

As soon as it was pointed out by others who had supported me, and had been flamed by the 'expert' crowd, that the gentleman who had made that statement was from Nosler bullets....the critics suddenly got awfully quiet....in less than 24 hours, that 30 or so page thread went from the hot topic, to being on page 3 or 4.. and in 48 hours was like page 10 in the archives..

I pass this on out of interest to those here that are looking at max results potential.. that is what I found when the question peaked my curiosity..

I'm a BIG fan of 220 grain RNs in the 06 and definitely a big fan of the 220 grain SMP partition...

I have found that RL 22 and H 4831 SC will get the 220s to 2600 and a bit more.. I've also found H 4831 SC had more lot to lot consistency than RL 22 and was continually more accurate with 200 to 220 grain bullet weights with max velocity out of all 4 brands of rifles I had chambered in 30/06.. and including the same out of several other friends rifles including a couple more different brands on top of that..

( and if someone desires even more punch using the 220 grain partition, worked that bullet up in a 300 Win Mag case to producing 2950 fps out of a 26 inch barrel..and a friend did the same in a 300 Weatherby.. both of us using H 1000 in that instance..) but that's another story.. this is an 06 thread...

but ya know.. getting the most out of your 06, to me includes the flexibility of say the use of 125 grain TNTs at 1500 fps or less also... and I work a bunch with stuff like that..I like to know the flexibility parameters of any cartridge I shoot..

( NB.. not trying to paint myself to compete with Mule Deer's esteemed experiences here.. just sharing some of mine on the thread since some questions were asked and I have some experience to specifically offer...)

thanks for that
wonderful to see these kinds of posts; they're a big part of why i follow these forums

Now that's what I'm talking about!! You just opened a door for my beloved '06 and I greatly appreciate you sharing:)

I had no problem finding advocats for pushing a 220 bullet based on published load data or based on shooting a different manufactured bullet, but I had absolutely zero luck finding a single sole who had success pushing this particular Partition with any accuracy. I'm a member of several forums, to include Nosler's, and all I found was dead silence with a few crickets in the background:) Yes Sir, I'm in lock step agreement with your sentiments, and speaking for me, this will add another dimension to my '06.

Could you post a link to that thread?

Thanks!

GaryVA,

If you send a PM to Phil Shoemaker who posts here as 458Win I am sure he would kindly give you info on loading 220 gr NPs as I have read some of his lines discussing this combo in the 06.

However, since the NP tends to shed the front section by design I wonder if penetration may not be better if velocity is kept at around 2400 fps?

Has anyone tested this?

Nosler Partitions tend to penetrate deeper the faster they're driven. This is true of just about any bullet that pretty much retains the same expanded shape.

The bullets that don't penetrate as much at higher impact velocities are those that expand wider the harder they hit.

I just shot a group with the 220 gr. NP that went one inch at 100 yds. in my '06. It's a custom 98 Mauser. My iron sighted, Remington 760 pump regularly shoots one inch groups at 50 yuds. The load I use for both is 57 grs. of H4831SC, WW cases and WLR primners. E

Thanks, that looks like an old standard velocity load.

I checked around and found that for a very short time Nosler published and recommended the heavier compressed loadings using the short cut grain 4831SC. Nosler Reloading Guide (5th edition) 220 grain Nosler Partition load data:

H-4831sc was the most accurate powder tested,
65.0 grs H-4831sc; MV=2645fps (listed as MAX load)

But for whatever reason, the later 6th edition makes no mention whatsoever of using the SC powder for a faster load. The heavier load SC data evaporated and everything has gone back to the older standard velocity load data using the current lots of powder. Has the specs on the SC powder changed over the older lots? I don't have the #6 Guide, is there more data in the #6 book than Nosler has on the web site? Just seems odd for such a quick change in recommended powder.

Thanks:)

I may need to call Nosler and ask a tech before I start spending money buying more powder.

The discrepancies and inconsistencies in reloading manuals is so common as to be a uniform problem for the handloader who "wants to know".

Because no-one has your rifles but you, the only way to know what is best is the chronograph "your" rifles. For me, someone elses data is simply that. That is the reason you will see a great load and then that obviously well suited to that case and bullet weight and inexplicably, dopped from the next weight listings. That can be a frustration but does not discount its value with a powder weight change to the appropriate bullet weight.

The manual writers know that they cannot provide data for every powder option so at best, a reloading manual is just a synopsis, or overview on what you can expect.

The fact that if you have a chronograph, you will note discrepancy in your own numbers using the printed loads just validates the requirements for a chronograph as part of load development.

I personnly have not seen a better powder that 760/H414 for the .30/06 and slower powders have "not" beaten this powder regardless of bullet weight. It also produces tremendous accuracy.

The next best powder in my experience is H 4350 or IMR 4350 followed by 4320 and Rel 15 which are progressively faster, not slower as most people indicate should be the powder options to try.

Now, when the powders become faster, the pressures become more critical to monitor as you can get spikes more easily and the lattitudes become smaller. With a slower powder, you may notice only slight velocity or pressure increases with an extra grain of powder compared with faster powders where you may see the same increaes with half grain increments so it is important to "learn" powder burning rate characteristics.

When you are in the right area, a change of primer can also spike, tune or detune a load so you are in an area that requires more finness and absorbtion of what you are seeing in handloading.

Because the requirement is 2600fps from a 220 grain bullet, it is high end performance from the '06 case with that bullet weight. An experienced hunters will tell you that there is no discernable difference between 2500fps and 2600fps with that bullet so in the end you want it because you want it.

I just wanted to highlight the "goal" and reinforce the independency from "need". It is a preference and that is ok as long as the baggage that comes with it is also accepted.

Several powders will comfortably get you into the 2550fps range and I have seen many a .5 MOA group shot at that velocity.

John

Since we are discussing the 220 gr bullet, here is some info on the Remington factory load, 220 gr Core-Lokt Soft Point #R30067:

Claimed velocity: 2410 fps.
Velocity in my 24" Springfield: 2394 fps.

Rick Jamison shot some for an article through his rifle equipped with a pressure transducer (I don't recall his barrel length).

His results were 2356 fps at 53,300 psi.

It appears there is definately room to improve on the factory load if one desires to.

Sunday I tried a load of 180 gr Nosler partitions over 58 gr of Ramshot Hunter. (W_W brass, WLR primers)In 4 different rifles (3 Winchesters, 1 Remington), all were under 1" for 3-shot groups at 100 yards. Dod not chrono.
I think I found my bear load.

Boring old '06 - Well here's my story, pulled the old '06 (Pre War M-70 my grandfather won in a big buck contest and handed down to me before he died 30 years ago) out of the safe, ran some dry patches through it, took it to the desert and fired a shot at 100 yards. About 1/2" high of dead center in a 2"x2" flo-orange square. Next shot in line about 1/2" right (I pulled that one a bit). Close enough, I'm sure I could have shot all day and put them all in that square, but I only have about 20 rounds left and wanted a few to hunt with. On to the next weekend, I used one more of my rounds on this Idaho 3x4. This is the kind of performance I have come to appreciate from the '06. I load 165gr Hornady BTSP's over 58.5gr of H4350 in Rem. brass w/ CCI primers about every 3 or 4 years and kill Deer and Elk until I run out and then do it again.

John B,
I'm a new member here and have enjoyed this thread and your article. I have not handloaded in years but used to for the old euro military rounds. Now that I got a brand new 30/06 I'm excited to start loading again. Those old Mausers and Swiss rifles have gotten too heavy for me!

Anyway, I hunt northern Michigan that offers shots any where from 200 yards to as close as 10 feet. I have 2 boxes of 30 cal Hornady 165gr SP Interlocks that I want to use. I'm thinking, from reading these last 25 pages, that the 180gr RN would be a better choice for the close shots. What do you think?

My powders on hand are H4350 and H4895.

It's a great cartridge. I knocked off a cull buck with mine last fall.

It would probably be a BIG JOB to haul off all the empty '06 brass I've fired over a 60 year span in two 18 wheelers....hunting rounds fired and years and years of NRA HP competitive shooting! I have fired many 'clean' scores shooting NM M1 and bolt rifles from the 1000 yard line and I have taken mulies and whitetails both, on several occasions beyond 800 yards. Many thousands of rounds of '06 were fired when I shot with the US Army Rifle Team and all of our guys on the team knew that if they did their part...the '06 round would deliver great accuracy! It has consistently done this for me over 60 years and if the truth were known....if more folks shot the 30/06 cartridge...as well as the .308 Win cartridge....they'd probably be a helluva lot more game taken home!!

Gawd I love this stuff! Way to go centershot!

Yep...I have used my pre-64 Model 70 in 30-06 to take 26 of NA 29 big game animals...Dr JY Jones used his '06 to take all 29......as JOC once said about the ol' 06..."This may not be a fasionable round any more but it's the worldwide workhorse...and will be doing it's stuff for a long, long, time"

OU: How very true!What two animals do you need to take to complete the North American slam?

I have actually completed the NA 29 twice...using my 270, 30-06, 300 Wby and 375 H&H..the 3 animals I need to complete the NA 29 with the '06 are Grizzly, Alaskan Brown Bear and Polar Bear..

OU: Fabulous!Great accomplishment! Congrats on that.No wonder you like the 30/06....

Thanks Bob......but to complete all 29 with the '06 won't happen...maybe a mountain grizzly but not a Kodiak Bear...even with the BBCs! Those fellas are 375 H&H animals...And, Polar bears are now shut down for USA hunters importing...glad I got 2 of them when I had the chance...1995 and 1999...

Would like to see you start a thread on those many adventures. It would make a good teaser if you plan on releasing a book.

Best:)

I posted a lot of pictures and comments on Alaska..Rifles for Dall Sheep section

After reading JBs article some time back I wanted to try 180s in my rifle. I took my Model 700 .30-06 to the range today to try out some 180 grain Core-Lokts. This is a 5 shoot 100 yard group. The bottom hole is the last 3 rounds I fired. My friend gave me a tail bag for those 3. I didn't even have to adjust the scope. I had been using 165 grain Core-Lokts.

Mr. JB: I've been reading this thread for some time to get all of it. Earlier you made a statement that TURNED A LIGHT ON that I had never considered. You said, " I quit trying to make the 30-06 into a 300 mag."

I have handloaded the 06 for many years and trying to be the consummate handloader I wanted to be, I always tried to WRING every fps with accuracy I could get out of it. I have had MAGNUMS off and on for nearly as many yrs as 06's and it JUST NEVER OCCURRED to me let the 06 BE an 06 and the MAGNUMS be magnums.

This has given me a brand new perspective and a sense of RELIEF. Just "let it be, let it be." as the Beatles sung. Especially since I have 4 mags I don't NEED the 06 to be on steroids. I can ENJOY loading and hunting the 06 next year like never before. THANK YOU! THANK YOU!

I load my M-70 fwt in .30-06 with 180 grain bullets and RL-22 to 2800 FPS.....not a hot load at all.....pressures like a .270 Winchester.

This gives me a fine rifle for about anything one likes to hunt. It's light, powerful and runs a 2-0-8-2-4 trajectory and that's something I like.

It'll go with me on my next plains game trip and the .300 magnums will stay home. I far prefer the lighter rifle!

JWALL,

Good post!

After many years of swearing that I would never own a .30-06, I finally bought one back in 2002 to take on a plains game safari in South Africa back in 2002. After reading about its use in Africa by such folks as Theodore Roosevelt, Stewart Edward White, Osa Johnson, Ernest Hemingway, and Robert Ruark I wanted to use one in South Africa. When I started working with the .30-06 cartridge (handloading for it), I fell in love with it!

The .30-06 isn't the most powerful, nor the least. It isn't the flattest shooting cartridge out there but it does have a very decent trajectory. Frankly, IMHO, the .30-06 is what it is and that's not a bad place to be, ballistically, at all! It does very well what it has always done.... It provides an excellent balance of power, trajectory, bullet weight, velocity, and amount of recoil.

My two most favorite cartridges are now the .30-06 and the 9.3x62 (although I own a variety of rifles chambered for other cartridges).



Limpopo Bushbuck
Rifle: Ruger M77 Mk II in .30-06 Springfield
Handload: 220 gr Woodleigh round nose at 2460 fps
Location: On the banks of the Limpopo River in the northern part of the Limpopo Province in South Africa back in 2002.

Cheers!
-Bob F.

Bob- Great picture!!!

The earlier posts regarding the use of H4831 SC and 220 gr bullets in an 06 were interesting and reminded me of another issue with the same powder in a .338 Win. Mag. I know this is a 30-06 site but...

In 1965 my dad bought a .338 Win. Mag for moose hunting. He wrote Elmer Keith and asked him for his recomended load for the purpose. A week or so later Mr. Keith wrote back and recommended the use of the 275 Gr. Speer semi spitzer on top of a charge of 74 grains of 4831. I can remember loading that with my dad and hearing the crunching sound as that pencil long bullet compressed the powder. I have also checked numerous reloading manuals since then and there is nothing close to that charge for the lighter 250 grain bullets. The post on the 220 gr. 06 and 4831 got me to wondering if there ws a similar situation with other combinations and the .338 / 275 Speer in particular.

I do remember that shooting that load was an uplifting experience, virtually uplifting off the shooting bench! No extraction problems but can give no other info on what we as reloaders would look at to gauge pressures now 45 years later.

Here are some loads I developed with this bullet in the .338:

275gn Speer 63gn Varget 3.278" 2572
64gn Varget 2590
66gn 760 2504
67gn 760 2574
68gn H 4350 2538
69gn H 4350 2585
70gn WMR 2479
72gn WMR 2594

The next loads are what I developed in my own .30/06 with the 220gn bullet:

220gn Woodleigh 57gn H 4350 2551fps 3180FPE .508"

220gn Sierra RN 56gn Win 760 2560
57gn Win 760 2605 1.2 MOA
57gn H 4350 2524 .556"
59gn H 4350 2603 Warm
51gn IMR 4350 2393
52gn IMR 4350 2403
52gn Rel 19 2170 .7" Mild


John

I'm currently awaiting the mating of one of my old '03 actions to a heavy 28" Broughton barrel, and a Richards laminated Marksman style stock - trying to more or less recreate a somewhat updated version of a 1920's to 30's target rifle to shoot some long range matches with. '06 chamber of course.

Can't test a rifle 'till it's built, but while anxiously awaiting the fruition of it all, has anyone tried some of these faster loads in a longish (like my 28" one) barrel? Do the slower powders like the 4831's, etc. get proportionately more velocity increase after 24-26" or do they just add more wt. out front?

I'll be testing about a 4 gr. wt. spread in most of the slow burners to find both speed and accuracy in the gun. Any recommendations would be appreciated, but I expect the loads already mentioned here should prove out similar to what our game loads provide. Match bullets may allow a smidge more powder when they have shorter bearing surfaces, but that's about it, at least as far as my expectations run.

My 'smith is an excellent one, specializing in beanfield/tactical rifles, and a buddy has an amazingly accurate .308 on a Surgeon action. Us old pharts get the "yips" sometimes on the trigger just like we do with a putter on the golf course, but I believe that .308 will do 2.5" consistently at 600. I'm trying to teach him to shoot off the bench, and he's learning pretty well. I only shoot it occasionally, but .... what a rifle!

Any help with target loads would help allay my anxiety in the waiting process. THANKS!

I will be interested to see your results as my only experiment was to try some 180gn TSX handloads that were generated in a 22" barrel on a mod 70 Featherweight and then pop them off in a Ruger No 1 with the longer 26" tube.

Teh Winny clocked 2850fps and the Ruger broke 3100fps. It will be intereting to see what your longer barrel can achieve.

JW

I've ignored this thread as a "ho hum" topic. Boy was I wrong!
I have a lot of reading to catch up on!
Now we need a similar thread for the .270WCF.

Maybe JB will write a similar article on the .270. There's a number of new powders that might work well in the .270.

where can I find the article?

http://www.24hourcampfire.com/newsletters/May_2009.html

-Bob F.

JB An earlier poster touched on a subject that has my curiosity up. As a bar shooter[270] i have certainly noticed the brass heat difference. I have wondered if extraction occurs while the brass is still swelled against the chamber walls the friction could create a great deal of the heat?

Fred
P.S.
hope this doesn't bring oldwoman42 back

I think one could write a volume of books on the 30-06 and be hard pressed to include everything.

azrancher,

The burning of the powder creates heat, which heats up the case. In a standard-action rifle, the case is in the chamber long enough for much of the heat to be transferred to the steel of the chamber walls. In a semi-auto, the case is jerked out before it can lose much heat at all.

I truly hope so!

I just did that in my monthly handloading column for GUNS magazine. It will be out this summer, both on-line and on the newstands.

Good.

Great news.

Hence the reason for faster burning powders in auto's?

How many big bears killed with a 30-06?

Mr. Barsness,
I will be returning to Souyh Africa for Kudu and Zebra next spring and will be using a new Model 70 Featherweight in 30-06. I love this rifle...
Anyway, I will be returning to reloading and seek your counsel on a suitable powder/bullet combo to start with. Thanks...

Gary,

I'd be glad to help in any way when the time comes. Sounds like another great trip!

Ah, I'm curious John. What does the french quote you are using say ? E

"The .257 is almost as good as sex."

I speak very little French ("oui" and some less than printable phrases picked up while hunting in Quebec) but almost any language can be translated these days on the right website. I thought is sounded good!

JB

Have you addressed how to get the most out of a specific '06, such as an 03-A3?

By the way, we went back to that pasture we started at and shot continually until Mike couldn't stand it anymore...

And that would be a lot!

Next time we each should just bring ALL of our .30-06's....

I went the gaelic route instead.........

"An .257 ta' beagnach fearr na' gn�as."

"The .257 is almost better than sex."

Couldn't figure out "as good as" so I opted for "better."

That would sure be an option!

I started with "the .257 is as good as sex" but decided that wasn't true.

Odviously a man with true wisdom..... When it comes to rifles, I mean. E

How to write a load book:
1) Find the powder charge for the threshold of the bullet getting stuck in the barrel.
2) Find the threshold of the primer falling out.
3) Publish a powder charge half way between [the above two] as the max load.
4) Publish the velocity from the primer falling out as if it were associated with the published max load.
5) Laugh all the way to the bank.

One of my Buds on BR.Com bought a 722or 721, don't remember. He is a machinest and trued the action, rebarrelled it, and a new stock. Here is his story of his first range outing.


Well, I spent the entire day at Tomball, shooting my '06

I broke it in with 5 rounds, cleaning after each shot, then firing two rounds three times, cleaning after two. The barrel cleaned up real nice.

I set up my 35P Chronograph, and loaded in 4350 untill it hit 2800 with the Hornady 178 grn A-Max. Conditions were pretty bad.

Results were not what I was looking for, 5/8 and 3/4 groups were the norm, I inched the load up, and nothing got better.

I switched to the 4831 Short Cut, and did the same thing, loaded to 2800, and went from there.

After about 30 rounds, it finally dawned on me that I was simply trying to shoot it too hot. I had it stuck in my head that with a 26 3/4 inch barrel, I should be hitting 2850 with a good accuracy node. Not so with this bullet.

I started loading the 4831 down untill it hit about the mid 2700 range, and the accuracy really started to improve. I also started backing the bullets back, untill I was jumping them about .020. That did the trick.

I settled in, and decided to take what ever time was neccessary to shoot three groups and see what it would do.

Even though it got to about 102 degrees temperature today, the Rifle acted very civil, the cases just fall out. I took my time and shot three groups, a .317, a .515, and a .280. The .515 actually had four shots in less than .300, but I lost one straight to the left with the condition.

I am just tickled pink. Regardless of how much effort you put into something such as a Rifle project, if the accuracy expectations are not there, then you feel less than satisfied. But I am very satisfied with this Rifle, shooting 178 grn A-Max's at an average 2780 with a three group agg in the .360 range is the proof that the effort, time, and money was worth it. THis is a pretty good shooting 30-06.

The final load is 59 grns of H-4831 SC, Federal Large Rifle Magnum Primer, .335 neck bushing with the .339 neck, (rounds have .003 overall clearance), 178 grn Hornady A-Max about .020 off touching. Average velocity about 2780 fps.

Next, I will get some of the new Hornady Match bullets in the same weight, some Bergers, and Sierras, and see what happens. But in all honesty, after shooting this thing 50+ times off the Bench today, I am ready to go back to a Benchrest Rifle.........jackie

I will get some pictures of the three groups posted,

Well, roughly five hours ago I started reading this thread from day one. OK so I'm masochistic. I've started trying to do this, read the whole thing, several times and today decided ti stick it out come hell or high water. I'm sorry to say I've neglected my 30-06 for some years now chasing around other cartridges, some old some new and some just plain odd.
The funny thing, that's funny peculiar, not funny ha ha is I can't come close to any of the popular loads everyone claims to use. However, something AGW said kind of caught my interest so I just might try using W760 in my 06. Both 4350's have proven to be erratic in four different rifle and while I get the velocity, I sure as hell don't get the accuracy. Two rifle are of known sub-MOA accuracy with certain brands of factory ammo so it's at least not those two rifles. I haven't decided just what I will do yet as I'm waiting to see if I drew a tag for deer this year.
For a very long time now, I've also wondered just how much better the 30-06 would be if loaded to the same level as the .270 Win. or .308? I dunno, maybe Murphy's second law applies to the 30-06. "If it ain't broke, don't fix it."
John. Just so you'd like to know, I'm reading Obssessions" for the fifth time. I just can't seem to get tired of reading that book. When's the sequel gonna come out? HINT HINT.
Paul B.

Paul,
Winchester 760 aks H 414 tends to work best when run at near maximum pressures. I find it produces the highest velocities and best accuracy in cartridges like .25/06, .30/06, 7x57 and even the little .22/250 or the big .460 Weatherby. It is very flexible and has always performed this way for me.

JB's warnings about velocity fluctuations in weather extremes is valid, but it is worth determining for yourself as I have tested the same loads made in the Australian heat in the Rocky Mountains in 6 or 8 rifles and found no variation in performance when temperatures were between say 20 and 90 degrees. JB has found some variation in even lower temps but I have no experience at that level of cold.

By all means, listen to everyone, then verify the results in your own rifle.

John Woods

AGW. Sounds interesting. While I do most of my load work up in our 110 plus degree summer, most of my hunting, at least here in Arizona usully doesn't get much colder than 32 degrees and I've only seen that once. One of my pet loads for the .308 and 165 gr. Speer Hot-Core uses W760. Not the best powder for the .308 but after a years and some trying to find something that one trick pony rifle would shoot anywhere decently, it was W760 that did the trick. I lose some velocity but what the ll. it's killed der from about 35 feet to right at 250 yards so if it works, don't fix it.
I'll be give W760 a try in the 30-06 after these summer storms quit for a few days and the range dries out. Stuff turns to adobe clay after a few rainns and that stuf sticks to your shoes like glue. Shoes gain about 5 pounds in a hurry.
Paul b.

Dashed hopes for me. This week I tried 58 grains of Hunter with Nosler 180s in one of my '06s (22") and was only getting 2670 fps. I guess I'll keep my old standby load of 57 gr of H4350 for 2735 fps that shoots under an inch. Nothing to complain about really.

Ramshot lists a maximum of 59.4 to 60.0 grains of Hunter with various 180-grain bullets, so you still have some wiggle room if you want to try it.

My calculations are that 60 grains would get somewhere between 2750 and 2800 in your rifle.

Yes, I see they list up to 54.4 grains with the ballistic tip. Nosler uses all the same data for their various 180's, so I'll try bumping it up a bit.

I just want to say that my old cheap strait from the factory Savage loves 180gr Sierra Gamekings with a max load of H4350. 5 shot 5/8 inch groups at 100. This load also runs just over 2800 fps.

I love my 30-06 and when I bought it in high school it was the obvious choice as I knew it would be my only rifle for years.

I've got a new to me 30-06 that I've started load development with. So far 60 grains of H-4831 and a 180 grain Hornady has worked out very well giving 3/4" groups and 2550 fps from an 18.5" barrel. Is there any chance that this load would benefit from a magnum primer?

I've also got some 200 grain Speers I might try. Ten years ago I had a 30-06 Husqvarna that I used 200 grain Speers and Jack O'Connor's load of 56 grains of IMR-4350 (The Hunter's Shooting Guide). It was accurate and velocities were good just as O'Connor said. Hodgdon lists a max of 53.5 grains. However this load is shown as producing 57,200 PSI while the 308 Winchester is shown with loads as high as 61,800 PSI. Do you think it is possible to work up to O'Connor's load safely or was I simply inexperienced and lucky when I used it ten years ago as a handloading beginner?

JB will chime in on this one, but the 4831's are too slow for the .30/06 case. You will find increased velocity using the slightly faster H 4350 or even 760/H414 is you have any.

Most readers here use charges around 57-58 grains and achieve something around 2800fps + in the longer barrels more commonly found, but either way, your rifle will shoot a little flatter and hit a little hrder with a powder change.

John

AGW, thanks for sharing your thoughts. I actually tried H4350 and some 180 Hornady spire points last night while shooting the H-4831 load for familiarization. Your are totally correct about improved velocity with H-4350. It just wanted to check for velocity and pressure signs so I loaded single rounds in 0.5 grain increments. Even with my short barrel, 57.5 grains came in at 2686 fps, 58 came in at 2715 fps and 58.5 came in at 2745 fps. 58.5 might have shown very slight primer flattening with the WLR primer being used. WLR primers are softer than some but I won't push it. I'm going to test 57.5 grains and 58 grains for accuracy. At any rate, it looks like I can get an honest 2700 fps out of a short barreled '06 using H-4350. This will also make my trajectory match the Boone and Crockett reticle on the 2.5-8x36 Leupold I have on this rifle and do anything I would ever want with a 30-06.

As an aside, the first three shots of my range session last night were at 400 yards (with the H-4831 load) and they went into 5 inches. This Ruger Ultralight keeps impressing me.

Generally H4831 is a little slow with 180's in the .30-06, but fine with 200's and 220's. However, I once owned a Ruger 77 with a longer than average throat that did quite with H4831 and 180 Speer Grand Slams--but I could get 61-62 grains in the case, thanks in part to the flat tip of the bullet. In that rifle it was easy to get 2800 fps with that combo, and very fine accuracy.

Usually, though, John is exactly right: Slightly faster powders do better than H4831 with 180's in the .30-06. In addition to any of the 4350's (including Accurate's), 760/H414 works well, as does Ramshot Hunter, which is another ball powder a little slower than 760.

I wish I could get my hands on Ramshot Hunter in Canada.

Fraser,

Be careful what you wish for. I couldn't get Ramshot Hunter to work worth a darn in either of my 06's. Used both CCI200 and CCI250 primers and varied the seating depth. I was using Nosler AB 180 gr. Anyway, good ole H4350 works just fine so I'm good to go.

Yeah, if "all" you have in H4350, you should be golden!

For open country DEER hunting, I have switched to a 130 gr Barnes TSX. I am not pushing a lot of powder because I feel no need to...but this bullet could probably allow some fine flat-shooting performance for the high speed types. I am shooting a sub-max load of H4895 because I like it and it shoots well, so I left it alone. I like the idea of this flat shooting lighter bullet for deer hunting, with the option of jumping the whole way up to a 200 gr bullet for heavier game.

I have a need for another rifle, and am leaning toward some high tech bells and whistles. I love all the wildcat stuff and cool cartridges, but I am just not feeling much enthusiasm to deviate from the boring old '06 for a caliber choice. I will probably leave the .284 wildcats and WSMs and such for the rest of you guys and gals to play with.

Mr. Barsness,

I wanted to say thanks for the article. My first rifle was a .30-06 I received as a present about 10 years ago. I would like another rifle but just haven't found something my .30-06 can't do.

I don't want to act like I'm questioning your methods, which are undoubtedly more experienced than mine. I wonder if you could tell me the background of how you did load development for your 180 grain bullets. For example, when developing the 180-grain bullet load, did you go above 58 grains of Ramshot Hunter in your testing? Did your 58 grain groups improve with magnum primers?

Thanks again.
v/r
Joel

John,

Would your powder recommendations for 150gr bullets change if the gun had an 18" or 20" barrel?

I'd like to load for my dad's model 70 lightweight and i know the gun's barrel is less than 22"

I am not John, but will say to the best of my knowledge, often the same powders that give max speed/safe pressures in long bbls, usually rank at the top also in shorter tubes. I may be wrong.

No doubt, flash may be improved, etc. if you have a faster powder in a shorter tube, but I think its been said it's more myth than reality that shorter tubes need faster powders in rifles.

JB may correct me if I off base here.

john on a past post you mentioned getting 2900 fps out of 30-06 with 180 bullet. is this do'able with a dakota rifle with 25 inch barrel?any input? thanks
tu

Probably, especially with double-based powders such as RL-22 and Hunter.

John,

did anyone ask about a load for the 130 TTSX in the '06?

Not that I remember. I would expect Big Game, RL-17 or H4350 to work really well.

thanks!

Earlier this year I inherited Dad's #1 in .30-06, after not owning a .30-06 for some years. My old loads were always with Reloader 19 or 4350, and they shot well. Big Game is a whole 'nuther deal, though. I tried the 150 Nosler AB/58 gr load in this #1, and not only is accuracy fine, it clocks 3127 fps out of the 26" barrel.

Thanks to JB for the useful info; it's certainly changing the way I think about the old '06!

Glad the Big Game worked out well!

I just got a pre-'64 Featherweight and plan to shoot 150's, so will soon find out how well BG performs froma 22" barrel.

I have been able to get about 3050-3070 fps with Big Game and 150 grain Accubonds out of my 22" McMillan G-30 30-06.

Chet

I loaded 150gr Hornady SP Interlocks and 58gr of Big Game out of being curious and it put three shots touching (both times I shot for groups) out of a M1917 Enfielf sporterized. Don't know vels but dang! Who cares?

Chet,

Thanks for the report. I've only used the 150/Big Game load in 24"-barreled rifles so far, and it's good hear it works well in other barrel lengths.

Has anyone tried Superperformance? How did it perform? Speed? Accuracy?

Hodgdon's data shows it to give a little more speed than H4350. I do not think it is an extreme powder. H4350 may be the better choice. Ramshot Hunter data gives speeds in this range - for 180-gr bullets, at least.

This is Hodgdon .30-06 data for Superperformance and H4350. No data above 180-gr for Superperformance.

150 GR. NOS BT Hodgdon Suprform .308" 3.250" 60.0 2850 43,100 PSI 65.0C 3072 53,000 PSI
150 GR. NOS BT Hodgdon H4350 .308" 3.250" 56.0 2792 37,100 CUP 62.0C 3068 48,400 CUP
155 GR. SIE HPBT Hodgdon Suprform .308" 3.225" 59.0 2843 43,400 PSI 65.2C 3125 58,800 PSI
155 GR. SIE HPBT Hodgdon H4350 .308" 3.225" 56.0 2757 36,000 CUP 62.0C 3038 47,500 CUP
165 GR. SIE SPBT Hodgdon Suprform .308" 3.300" 55.0 2724 45,100 PSI 61.0 2972 58,800 PSI
165 GR. SIE SPBT Hodgdon H4350 .308" 3.300" 53.0 2678 38,400 CUP 59.0 2938 49,400 CUP
180 GR. SIE SPBT Hodgdon Suprform .308" 3.220" 54.0 2628 46,200 PSI 59.7 2840 57,600 PSI
180 GR. SIE SPBT Hodgdon H4350 .308" 3.300" 52.0 2543 37,800 CUP 57.5 2798 49,300 CUP

^^^ I was just going to ask the same question.

Please note that the comparisons are NOT at the same preessure levels. To be a real comparison, the pressure levels need to be the same for both powders. E

If you are talking about the Superformance table above, then note that the H4350 pressures are given in CUP whereas the Superformance pressures are given in PSI. I am not aware of any accurate method to convert from one to the other.

I don't know about Superperfomance, but do know that the velocities on the table above are about spot on what I get with the 165 Sierra and 59 H4350;that from the 22" barrel of a pre 64 M70 FW.

Would be nice to know if the pressures and velocities were measured at the same time from the same barrel so a chronograph could aid in gauging pressure.

At this stage of my life I think I will stick to 56.5 grs IMR 4350 and a 165 Hornady Interlock. My son and I have a sample of three deer with three shots. Only 97 more to go and I will have a statistically valid sample.
whelennut

Good luck in pursuing the next 97 Whelennut.

Mule Deer, I have found this series very helpful (informative) and am thinking of printing it out for a loose leaf binder. Thanks a bunch! I am bumping 75. Three years ago I had a blowout on a heart valve. Since then still hunting and roaming the foot hills for mule deer are pretty much history. I am fortunate in that I have access to a good bit of ranch country in what we call the "rolling plains" (the area adjacent to the great plains) area of Texas. I am still able to get about with the aid of a Kawasaki Mule. I often park it and just sit and watch or glass the country or take a stand after a short walk. Mostly for white tails now days.

Back in the seventies, I hunted almost exclusively with BARs, mostly in .30-06. As I got a little older, I weeded them out in favor of lighter bolt guns. I suppose in a futile attempt to recapture lost youth, I recently picked up a '70 edition of a Gd III, hand engraved w/about grade 3-4 wood, in .30-06. I have had pretty good success with these rifle's accuracy in the past, but the load data is long gone. I do not want to trash this beautiful rifle's gas system with the wrong powders, Could you suggest some powders and loads to try. I will use mostly 150 and 165 Accubonds and Partitions. I am well set for 180's out of one bolt gun and another likes 150's rather well. Thanks, jack

Jack,

Usually medium-rate powders work better in autoloaders. I would start with a 150-grain bullet and powders like Reloder 15, Varget or one of the 4895's. (IMR4895 was originally designed for the 152-grain military .30-06 load in the Garand.)
You should be able to get 2900 fps or close to it, which will work fine.

Good to hear you found a way to keep hunting!

Thanks John. I have used 4895, kind of forgot about Reloader 15, and have not loaded for semi-autos since Varget was introduced. Should be able to find a winner in that selection. Thanks again, jack

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And this has what to do with hunting and shooting guns???

I do not have the rank to ban you but hopefully someone will show up who can. This is not that type of website.

I'm not sure what you're testing, but a sample size of 30 is fine. Say, 30 deer were shot, and out of those 30 deer how many died? You could run some simple inferential statistics on that bullet type, controlling for velocity and conditions of course.

Cool

John:

You and others have recommended Reloader 15 for the 30-06 several times in the past.

Yet when I looked at the Alliant website reloading guide, I noticed two strange things:

1. Alliant doesn't show any recommended 30-06 load for 165 gr bullets with R15.

2. And when I look at loads for 150 gr bullets, the max load of 52 grains of R15 only gives 2728 fps, far below velocities attained with factory ammo.

What's up with the Alliant reloading guide?

I have a old husky thats been re barreled to a douglas supreme the problem is it is only 20" ; should I stay with 4350 or go to a little faster powder thanks

Stay with normal burning rate powders in a shorter barrel. Velicuty will still max out for the barrel length and accuracy will be where you expect it to be. The caveat, is that it is a new barrel so "could" prefer another powder like 4064, 760, Rel 15,or another 4350.

But that is the fun in finding out.

"Just another John"

Thanks for the Info. will try 4350 as soon as it cools down , upper 90's here in Ill.. Oz

I bought a 2008 Model 70 Limited Edition in .30-06 today. Any thoughts on this rifle John?

john. enjoyed the article. have 3 30-06's currently but only shoot 2 of them as the third has peep sights and I can't see well enough anymore to use it. o3 springfield un drilled and tapped.
my question is have you used superformance? bought 2 lbs on gb as I live 30 miles out of bonners ferry. anyway I loaded som rp brass with fed 215 primers with 60 grs. superformance under hornady 150 sst's. accuracy is great at .75 inch for 5 rounds. the thing that worries me is the velocity. sd was 6fps with average speed of 3228fps. the primers are flat with some radius still showing around the pocket. no stick to the bolt and extraction is smooth. that velocity is out of rifle a. rifle b is around 260 fps slower but that's with any load. does this load sound ok to you? thanks neighbor!

What kind of chronograph?

Hodgdon's data shows around 65 grains of Superformance as maximum with bullets in the 150-grain range, for a velocity of around 3100 fps from a 24" barrel. While individual rifles do vary considerably in their results, it would be extremely unusual to get over 3200 fps with 5 grains less powder.

thanks for the response. my crono is one of the cheepie chrono's(sp). it usually is close +/_ 100fps to published data. the two rifles have the same length barrels (22 inch). something out of whack here I think. i'll put in fresh battery and run another batch. I was just afraid I was playing with too much pressure.
the hodgdon data is what i'm using. I also ran three tws 56 mil brass loads with the same load and it came out the same. guess this is the part that keeps me reloading. tom

Yeah, you're using the starting load of 60 grains, which is listed at 2850 fps with the 150 Ballistic Tip in Hodgdon's data.

My experience with Chronys is mixed. My first one was pretty good, but the last one I had (my third) was about 2% fast on cloudy days, and up to 6% fast on sunny days. Eventually it started giving velocities up to 10-12% fast, even with a brand-new battery, and I junked it.

thanks again. replaced the battery even though it still tickled my tongue and got avg 5 shot for the fast gun of 2760. more like it I guess. would have loved the 3220fps but will be happy with the .75 accuracy. should get a better crono but need more components worse. thanks for the tip on the chrony.

I read the article at the time but didn't have a 30-06, having not loaded or used one for about 20 years. I bought a new stainless Zastava 30-06 a couple of months ago and the article and thread was re-read with greater interest.

Thanks for the article Mule Deer even if it comes very late!

We don't have Ramshot here in Oz but thankfully we do have a steady supply of AR2209 which works very well with 180g Interlocks and Ballistic Tips. And that's about all I will ever need I imagine.

You're welcome! Glad you liked the article.

AR2209 is a wonderful powder. A year or so ago I made a list of all the primary handloads I use in my rifles, and it was used in more of the loads than any other powder. Luckily, I have good supply, but right now it's hard to find in a lot of the U.S.