Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Africa Open sights on client DGR rifle- cosmetic or necessity?

I don't know if I should ask here or start my own thread, but anyone have thoughts on regulating irons for 410s from my 416 and sighting a scope on QD Tally's in for 300s?

I haven't tried it yet but I'm betting that a Swarovski Z6 with 4.7 inches of eye relief and the long stock on the CZ550 will keep it out of my face.

I reiterate that the iron sight are a step down from an appropriate set of optics. Now those optics may need to be a reddot or a scope/reddot combo. No matter how magically your rifle fits you with iron sights, the best of the reddot optics are still faster.

The super-high speed handgunners will tell you they still get a sight picture no matter how fast they shoot. And if reddots are permitted in the sport they are used by all because of their superiority.

The guys busting doors in Irag and Afghan. are all using optics.

No matter how much we all love the express sights, we just must face the truth that the optics are faster.

I might even be interested in a little speed test of iron sights versus appropriate optics over a diverse set of shooting situations. Of course we shoot like men for pink slips.

Any thoughts on shooting events to sort this question out once and for all?

ss

Ryan,
That is not a problem at all and do it all the time, but you might get some flack for not using the same ammo in your gun as you could fesibley have the wrong ammo in the gun with the wrong sight..I dunno..

My 416 Rem is presently sighted in 1 inch high at 50 yards, and it is also 1 inch high at 100 BTW. This is with irons and the 450 gr. Woodleighs. My 3X Leupold in Talleys is sighted in 1 inch high at 50 and 100 yards also but with 400 gr. North Fork softs and cup points..Fortunately all this stuff shoots to the same POI in my gun, so its not a problem and works out well.

sharpshooter,
I would love to oblidge you, but probably never happen in that we live a world apart, and time and money don't make it even a consideration..I would suggest that you compete against yourself as that is all that counts in the high grass..As to what the boys do in Iraq, I doubt is applicable to a hunting situation,as we don't have the full auto lever, and if the batteries go dead in Iraq, you can flip the switch.:)

Hi Josh

I agree with you. I do think the client that very seldom experience a charge should have a low power scope. Yours worked like a charm, and my personal favourite (if ever I can afford it , I will build another rifle especially for this scope), is the 1-6x42 Swarovski, with the illuminated reticle. However, the PH should carry open sights, it is faster, and works much better on charges (for me anyway.)

Just as you guys were going to the airport after your tour of our beautiful country (if I may say so myself), you might remember that I had a leopard charge. Now on this charge a few things went wrong. First, the cat did not want to bay with dogs. We had to get too close to try and get a shot at it before it injured the dogs too much. Second, that morning Gottfried (my driver) picked up my 9,3x64 instead of my .450 Rigby, which I am more used to and also has open sights which I prefer for all DG hunting, especially leopard over dogs (I only need to shoot if the brown stuff hits the fan.) Then, when this cat came, I/ the client shot it off centre in the chest/ in the front paw from close range, which slowed it down a bit, and after it jumped on Willem (one of the trackers), you can clearly see it did not have a lot of fight left in it, so it only chewed his left hjand, and scratched him on one of his legs, before he kicked him off, and Francois killed it. Now I firmly believed that if I had the .450 there, that cat was dead at our feet. Two hunts later, we had another charge by a leopard, and that cat folded with the .450, partly because of the bigger bullet, partly because of shotplacement, but mostly because I know my .450 so much better, and I shoot open sights with it exclusively.
I am off again tomorrow morning for a lion hunt, hope we do not need to practice this theory...!

(sorry of the video quality, we took it off the little screen of the camera with another one, as the cameraman (who I thinkl did extremely good), did not have a cable to download it.)

Karl, good to hear from you again. We are looking forward to you making it out here this winter.

Come on Ray, that is a pretty wide wand you are waving there to dismiss the military guys and then suggest that they will just hit the burst switch when things fall apart. From what I have seen these guys are using exact placement at muzzle to muzzle distances and are required to not only kill the bad guy, but save the hostage ande be fully accountable for each round fired. Hardly a pray and spray.

Ray, I realize you are on one end of the country and I am on the other, but I'd bet we could cross paths at some point for a bit of shooting. I'd hate to take advantage of a feller with your advanced age and infirmity but I bet we could still have a spot of fun. bring one of you big bolt rifle and you can shoot againsut my bolt with appropriate optics. Of course I would't keep your rifle if you lost.

Might make for a neat little side match.

ss

A scope is better for the first shot at everything except for elephants. And a reasonably low power variable for the game hunted, imo 1x4 for buff for example, with an illuminated reticle that has a reticle that is still good when the battery dies is the epitome.

But when it comes to elephants, proper express sights or a good wide apperature are far, far better. Any optical sight on a rifle results in a large blind spot, even whith both eyes open , which for a righty is to the right and forward. Moreover, the blind spot goes from ground to quite high, high enough to hide an elephant. Go get a scoped rifle out of your rack and try it if you doubt this.

For anyone to make their express or apperature sight work best, file the friggin' bead! If the bead is not filed flat, there will be shifting poi as the light changes. For example, if the light is on the right, the right side of the bead will be more visible and you will center the most visible portion, pushing the shot will be to the left. Vice versa for sun on the left. Not much change in poi, but some, a couple of inches at 50yds. Its so easy to eleiminate it that it is just dumb not to. And beads are a dime a dozen if you screw it up.

For the bead to show well in any light, file it at about a 30* cant off vertical, low portion toward breech high portion to muzzle. Then polish it.

Guys who claim optics are better for elephants, or for follow ups are either kidding themselves or don't have the experience, or haven't figured out what good open sights are maybe.

JPK

JPK, you are politely full of baloney. An elephant is just another target. Just because you really like traditional express sights for elephant hunting does not make it true.

If you really believe that express sights are better, no matter the situation you just don't have enough expierence with other sighting systems to make an accurate determination.

I have noticed that the marine corps has put in a large order for express sights for the guys that are fighting room-to-room, they have noticed that the Eotech's are blocking too much of their vision when engaging multiple armed insurgents at less than 10 feet.

Ok, too silly a circular thread. I'm out.

ss

Sharpshooter,
I have been in both places, I just don't care to discuss shooting people on the internet or anywhere else..My business is hunting and I have an opinnion there, and probably considerably more experience than most.

The fact that some of us disagree with you is supposed to be along the lines of intelligent conversation, not a flaming thread..

If you are content with scope, or whatever, I certainly have no problem with that and I recommend it for you, I on the other hand prefer the irons and I have used both extensively for years, but in the thick stuff and to be quick I want the flat plain of a quarter rib and I point shoot at up to 25 yards..

I can probably perform as well as anyone you know, and if we ever get together I will put up the money and we'll shoot, and young man if you hurry I will take all your money home with me..:) If you wait too long I'll be too old to lift the gun. I might add that I used to shoot at the San Antonio range when I was with DEA with a fellow marine you might know, Carlos Hathcock, He would have advised you not to shoot against me.

BTW, I ment no slur by suggesting they would hit the speed switch, it's just what I would do up close and personal..I never thought much of a one shot kill, its apt to get you killed IMO. I have yet to see any government do anything right or anything that could not be improved on. I have know a lot of soldiers, policemen, PHs, guides, and hunters that could not shoot. Being iin the military is not a license to be a good shot. That is something one works at, practices continuelly and earns.

I hope your not as mad as you sound, it was an interesting conversation for awhile there.

I can see a few flaws in the argument that the military uses scopes for house to house fighting. Therefore they, scopes, are better.
They don't use conventional hunting scopes. They use Red-Dot sights. No magnification on almost all of them. The illuminated dot simply appears to float in space with no significant blind spots. Hunting scopes, aren't like that.
Second, the weapon of choice for house cleaning is the Uzi, not the various M16's. Sure, with a collapasable stock, they can be handled like an Uzi.
For hostage situations, the weapon of choice is the open sighted handgun. Shot two handed. Again, you can use an M4 type rifle, but there the sights of choice are the laser sights. E

First Erem. you are mistaken, uzi's are not the weapon of choice. Most are using what is issued, the M4 with an Eotech or some other red dot sighting system. The better equipped teams are equipped with MP-5s. The high-speed low-drag guys are equipped as they see fit.

Ray, I am tiring a bit of this attitude of yours that you have done everything and are better at it and everyone else is completely wrong. Simply shooting with Hathcock, Keith or McGivern does not necessarily mean that you have cornered the market on shooting information. You might be a better speed shot than I am but you could just as easily get a spanking from me. Simple arrogance backed with nothing more than talk is wearing thin and I am beginning to rethink doing business with you.

That last deer hunt you sent me on was a pretty sorry operation that was full of talk and the guys running it were much more interested in driving around after dark and looking for good deer that oddly never showed at their stand sights. Pretty clear they were hunting for themselves.

After this blusterous talk here I am beginning to wander what kind of operation you are running on this upcoming mule deer hunt. Is this hunt all talk and no horns? You rub elbows with the best hunters in the world and teach them all about shooting dangerous game, and that is fine. But I am going to be a little unhappy if this is yet another drive around the scenic side of the of the mountain with pretty real estate and no mule deer.

I've trusted you up til now but after this loud mouth deal hear I am beginning to smell a problem. Ok, you are the toughest shot around on DG( so you say)what about booking a hunt that delivers on it promises?

josh

josh

Lets focus on this portion of your post:
"If you really believe that express sights are better, no matter the situation you just don't have enough expierence with other sighting systems to make an accurate determination."

As I said in my post, express or apperature sights are by far the best option for elephants. As I also said in my post, a scoped bolt rifle with an appropriately low range variable, with a bold reticle and illumninated dot is the best choice for all other situations save follow up.

This is from my post:
"A scope is better for the first shot at everything except for elephants. And a reasonably low power variable for the game hunted, imo 1x4 for buff for example, with an illuminated reticle that has a reticle that is still good when the battery dies is the epitome."

So, where did I say I "...believe that express sights are better, no matter the situation..."

Now, I did say that they are best for elephant hunting, especially up close, where it ought to be done, and follow up.

From my post:
"But when it comes to elephants, proper express sights or a good wide apperature are far, far better."

Also from my post:
"Guys who claim optics are better for elephants, or for follow ups are either kidding themselves or don't have the experience, or haven't figured out what good open sights are maybe."

Nowhere did I say, "I '...believe that express sights are better, no matter the situation...'" You are making things up.

BTW, for the inexperienced (that would be you), if your going to shoot elephants at 50yds, they are still better, since the heart/lung target is the size of the top of a 50gal drum and the brain shot is increasingly difficult to make as range grows.

Moreover, if you go elephant hunting enough, especially in the jess, you will eventually have a run in with an elephant, maybe a buff, maybe something else. Your scope, 1x or not, isn't woth s--t at 10, 5, 3 yards.

But I have forgotten, now that you have shot one elephant, which took a couple of tries with your scoped double before you made your fatal shot, you are an expert!

As far as your s--tty attitude, and your especially s--tty post in response to Ray, with whom I do not always agree, I have seen you get [bleep] before when you sense you are not winning what ought to be a debate or that people are not sufficiently in awe of your (inexperienced) opinion.

Worse, your post can be paraphrased as, "If you won't agree with me, I'm taking my ball and going home." That is imature at best in any situation, put expecially piss poor when your are using business, money and threats to try to get someone to agree with your (inexperienced) opinion on an utterly unrelated topic. Doing it in a public forum and in the way you have while bring up your disastifaction regarding a previous deer hunt sold to you be Ray is just low.

Go ahead, take your ball and go home, eh.

JPK

JPK, with all due respect this discussion has essentially ben that you have lots of expereince hunting elephant so unless one of us is Bell, Taylor or JPK we are just silly want to bees that are not permitted to speak on the subject.

Admitally, I have killed exactly one bull elephant. He was killed with a searcy double rifle in 357 fl and the rifle had a 1.1x4 S&B Zenith flashdot scope on it. Had it not been for the red dot the elephant would not have bee taken. I shot low on my first shot because unlike you I go nervous and excited. the secound round caught him in the should and the PH fired two rounds that this time even tough he could not see his iron sights. I chased down the elephant and in about 100 yards he had decided that he was coming back. One round at the edge or the neck/spine area ended it. I am humiliated that I didn;t get to take an elephant under your more honorable conditions. Shame must follow for this kill.

Now obviously Ray Atkinson has shot alongside some of the most famous shots of all time. No doubt Ray in the Paderfamilius situation is despensing information and tips to thw young men under his care. Perhaps in the style of the "Godfather."


Now I would really like to participatr in full, honest testing regimen that ccould

I'm still not sure if you're a troll, or posting from a managed care facility.

JPK, I forgot to fully admit to sissy status on the elephant kill. My first shot was head on the 20 yards and the final shot was taken during a charge at a distance of like 10 yds so obviously I must take tripple negative points for full cowardice on the elephant. Obviously I must fully admit to that act of cowardice and throw myself on the mercey of the court.

I am going to have to re-think my status as an elephant. Since I am not using iron sigts in the proscribed manner. I may well about to be asked to leave the tea party.

josh

"...I have killed exactly one bull elephant. He was killed with a searcy double rifle in 357 fl and the rifle had a 1.1x4 S&B Zenith flashdot scope on it. Had it not been for the red dot the elephant would not have bee taken. I shot low on my first shot because unlike you I go nervous and excited. the secound round caught him in the should and the PH fired two rounds that this time even tough he could not see his iron sights. I chased down the elephant and in about 100 yards he had decided that he was coming back. One round at the edge or the neck/spine area ended it."

Lets look at the portion of your post quoted above.

In particular, lets look at that first shot:
"Had it not been for the red dot the elephant would not have bee taken. I shot low on my first shot..."

So, explain how in the hell that S&B helped you out if you missed the shot?

Now the second shot:
"[T]he [sic] secound round caught him in the should[er] [sic]"

If you include the shoulder blade as part of the vitals, the target size expands to not just the lid of a 55gal drum, but to the whole damn drum. Christ, the elephant was 20yds away! Do you really nead an illuminated reticle scope to hit the lid of a 55gal drum or even the whole drum at 20yds?

I have the S&B Zenith 1.1x4 with the #4 style illuminated reticle. It is the perfect scope, the perfect reticle for a 375H&H (or Flanged, or Ruger) for any hunting EXCEPT elephant hunting, where no scope is the best choice.

Go kill another dozen or so elephants and then come back and tell me you still think that a scope is a better choice.

BTW, here's something for thought: Your PH put two rounds into the elephant's shoulder, he didn't need or use his sights.

JPK

JPK, the PH fired two rounds in my elephant and did not use his sights because he could not find them and those two shots were of zero use. He had no idea where where they went.

How about you take your self proscibed silly expert status and pound sand. Again you are all talk and no reason. You say so and it must be true. Sounds like you are long on verbal masturbation, again.

josh

I always get a hoot when some inexperienced twit, or one with expertitis gained from such limited, fleeting involvement as yours, goes around telling experienced guys they don't know s--t.

Happens every day in every endevour, hunting, shooting, fishing, business, investing...

You've been doing it to Ray as well, novice. What a one trip wonder.

But lets stick to elephant hunting, double rifles and their regulation, accurate shooting. You have made an ass of yourself with your expertitis on these topics, here and on AR. That's right, every f--kin' double rifle you have tried, Searcy, Hyem, shoots like hell because it is the rifle, eh? Couldn't possibly be the one common denominator, which is the opperators inexptitude, eh?

Don't forget the exchange where you told one and all that there is no need to shoot off a bench and bags when the hood of the pick-up is availble, after all, the wobble and shake from the pick-up only fits with a double rifle's accuracy potential, right?

Go back and hunt for and kill another dozen or so elephants, do it in the jess, up close. When you return, I predict you will end up knowing why DG PH's, especially elephant PH's shoot open sighted rifles and understanding that they are right, that Ray is right, that I am right, that open sights are the best option for elephant hunting.

If you return and still think a scope is better, at least you will have a foundation for your opinion.

BTW, the elephant died, if you told the truth, he had 5 bullet holes in him, one smaller hole in the head from you, another in the neck from you, and another in the shoulder from you, two in the heart/lung/shoulder from the PH. BS that the PH or you didn't know where his bullets went.

Also if the elephant was charging you and "...the final shot was taken during a charge at a distance of like 10 yds so", how did you kill it with "One round at the edge or the neck/spine area..." that "...ended it."? No possible way to make a neck shot on an elephant that is actually charging you, though it is possible to shoot low and reach the spine.

JPK

Sharpshooter,
I apoligise if I have set you off..I thought we were having some fun and your the one that tossed out the challange to a shooting match..

I was not aware that you were unhappy with my $2500 whitetail hunt last year, for that you were allowed a buck, doe and all the hogs you could shoot, the use of the lodge, unguided but assisted if need be, and you didn't complain about it, until you got mad at this thread, thats the trouble with the internet..It was not guided, it was not fenced, and the deer are 120 to 130..Its a hunt designed not to break the pocket book, a perfect father son hunt, and my clients had 99% success on deer last year..I hunted the last two days and shot a 3x3 buck and a big Russian hog..I believe you arrived there with unreasonable expectations. If you wanted a big whitetail trophy deer I would have sent you elsewhere at about $5500 or more. I am sorry you feel the way you do about it.

I also know that you booked a hunt with me this year, and I also didn't know that you were sharpshooter, so your posts are a little unfair to me...However, I have sent your money to Wayne and I am willing to give you a full refund and will advise Wayne to do that if that is what you want to do, However Wayne has nothing to do with what has happened here..

One of the ills of the internet. Again I apoligise and sorry that you feel the way you do about me as I have enjoyed our business relationship and thought it was good.

Atkinson, you are twisting around that Seymour hunt trying to make it sound like something it wasn't. I contacted you for a quick hunt to waste a little time. No big deal, just some modest sized deer. First off Stony was off busy with other hunters, and his Dad kept me in a stand close to his house, minimal work. I saw a couple of yearlings, no hogs and one little year and half buck that was running for his life. We did spend a lot of time spotlighting after dark and anytime we saw a little buck I noticed my stand for the next day was a long ways off. I didn't hunt more than 150 acres the whole time. Essentially I got the "dog and pony" show to keep me clear of anything they didn't want killed.

I gave you the benefit of the doubt at the time of not being in on the little scam. Even thought I might trust you one more time. But frankly, the "sonny" and other arrogant remarks you are so fast with have been wearing a little thin. We both know that the guys that hunt for a real living are using much more effective systems than iron sights. Iron sights makes the boneheads feel like they are real life PHs. And only these PH wannabees are allowed to tell people what they can hunt elephant with. Being correct is not the question, being big bwana is. What a silly joke.

Frankly JPK is doing his best to own the title of elephant expert and send down his missives from the mount. He's full of [bleep] and he knows it, but playing big bwana gets him off. Big deal, go pound sand. If you can't have a thoughtful, reasonable conversation on the subject, you know where the sand is. You are still a joke.

So Atkinson, what am I supposed to do? I've made arrangements to be on this hunt, my nephew is dying to go because he has been looking forward to it for weeks and now I don't know if I am dealing with a thief. Does this guy actually have access to property with good deer populations? Does he even have access to more than 100 acres? What am I supposed to do? Cancel and try to find a more reputable outfitter in two weeks? Just go and hope for the best?

I am open to suggestions here Ray. I guess you can just call me "sonny" that seems to be the most natural thing for you if you have any thoughts.

SharpsShooter,

perhaps this kind of thing is best discussed in private - only with the parties concerned?

Just a thought...