Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Custom Rifles & Wildcats Tell me about the 257 Weatherby...

Keith,

Very civil reply.

I guess you can color me cautious when it comes to my handloading. I do not like being a "test pilot" for how many over pressure (SAAMI) loads a standard action can withstand until it gives out. I just read the thread referencing rifles blowing up. It was interesting. I have an engineering degree (aerospace) and have been flying airplanes older than most folks on the forum so I know a thing or two about metal fatigue. I know I don't like it! I will also be the first to admit that I do not play with wildcats. My one and only venture is a 338-08 (now the 338 Federal) and there was a lot of loading data already available.

I just get concerned when folks with lots of experience in wildcatting post a load that is way over-book. Some putz is going to try that load in a standard 25-06 and hurt himself. I know, I know, it is Darwin at work but overall it is not a good thing. I have flown aircraft in all conditions and have a lot of experience landing on aircraft carriers. It is not for the non-trained pilot to attempt though.

I guess we can just leave it that my mind is closed to pushing the envelope in handloading. That is the way I want it and the way it will stay. Have a good evening my friend!

RH

When people want to look like they know about something they have no personal experience with, they'll quote scources. This here is a tell..."According to Hodgden..." Now this guy's automatically an authority because he saw it in the HodgdOn manual.

I've been through this crap too many times with self styled ex-purts who knew better than me what was happening with my rifle. On what grounds? Well, because possibly they don't know what they're doing and haven't got it right yet, or just as likely because of what they read in some reloading manual. But funniest thing.....look in the manual at the test setup. Different barrel, damn well a different chamber, different powder lot, different bullet, different brass and primer, and different seating depth. In other words, nothing's the same. And then there's the extreme paranoia necessary when publishing loads. Yet there're always people who say "that can't be right because the ----- manual says (such and such)."

The "ex-purts" love to cite pressure.....makes 'em sound knowledgeable. So I'll ask you himmelrr, how do YOU determine what's a safe load and what isn't? Do you pressure test loads? Or do the way most everyone does.....by letting the brass tell you. Brass is the weakest link in the system and it'll be in trouble long before the gun is in trouble. When someone says they're getting a certain level of performance, you saying the load's unsafe simply because of what you think or what you've interpolated from something you read - and not from actual experience with the cartridge - makes you look foolish.

himmelrr, thanks for your service to this country, I for one appreciate it.

I think that people's fear of metal fatigue is not well founded in modern bolt action rifles. I can not find one person, or gunsmith that has personal experience with an action blowing up from other than mistaken powders that have been substituted. There are actions that I would not build a wild cat on where I know that pressures are going to be high, however.

I think that it is reasonable to do some research before duplicating internet loads in your rifle and approach them with caution.

Most guys that shoot wild cats will not post loads in a "Wild cat" section like this due to the nay sayers, I know a lot of them. Your comment, "I just get concerned when folks with lots of experience in wildcatting post a load that is way over-book. Some putz is going to try that load in a standard 25-06 and hurt himself" is very well founded. There are contributing factors that lower pressures so that velocities can be reached safely, but the discussion never gets that detailed because that takes a number of experienced wild catters discussing the details on a public forum, they get shot down way too quickly.

I never will forget the first benchrest match that I went to in 1967, there were about 30 guys there, all of them had some kind of non-normal benchrest caliber and rifle they were shooting. It was a format that I have never seen since. These old timers were playing with calibers and guns in such a way that was extremely creative and sharing their ideas in some very constructive ways, then they sat down and tried to out shoot each other. You just do not see that kind of format very often anymore.

I'm really surprised on this board that there are not guys that are talking about the 6mm AI, 22/6mm, 22/243, 17 Predator, and so on and so forth...it's a real shame...knowledge lost forever.

You can think I'm a fool and I never said I was an expert. I will trust a manual that tested their loads and use them as a guide long before I trust random no-names from the internet and their loads. Have I tested my loads? Nope and I'll bet most don't either. I do agree with you though that brass is not good indicator of pressure.

RH

I have one Mauser action that has had 8 barrels shot out on it chambered in 6mm Rem...thats a lot of dead crows, rabbits, ground squirrels, and coyotes. I shot mostly two loads, a 60g bullet at 4000 and an 80g Bullet at 3600. This mauser action was made in the mid 80's.

I don't think that any falling block or break open action could take this kind of punishment, nor several other kinds of actions on the market today.

The SAAMI pressures have to be OK for all kinds of actions. Also, pressures sky rocket below -25*...they have to take that into account also.

You don't have to believe anything from me or anyone else. It's not about believing what someone else says. It's about realizing the manuals aren't gospel and that their data can vary considerably from one to another......and understanding why that is. Guns don't read. My load or your load or anyone else's can be very different from some manual and it'll be perfectly fine in a particular gun. Read the second paragraph in my post again. And no, I said brass is the weakest link and it will tell you what's happening.

yea !
finally someone else who see's things like i do.
i caught all kinds of grief over my velo's with my 257. i loaded to where it said it had enough, it loves the load, and tells me it's not over pressured yrt.

but alot of guys here say it is dangerously high pressured.

i have several different books, some being really old.
loads vary in them for the same powders from book to book.
i ask what's a favorite load for some calibers i am not familiar with, check books, and go from there.
but each gun will tell you when enough is enough.
i know ya can't make a 30-06 into a 300 rum, but i do want all the performance a given cartridge will deliver.
and sometimes even slow em down for a particular hunting situation where all the speed and blast isn't needed, when it's a favorite rifle.
but if i want out right performance, i'll load em til the rifle tells me it doesn't like it when i can't get good accuracy, or the brass says enough.


books aren't bibles.

Guess what I will be the first to tell you that you do not know what you are talking about either the book you are looking at is one that has all the loads in it reduced because all the lawyers have caused the powder compinies to do so for liabilities. all the older books had much hotter loads. so you just gave a good clue you are not experinced with guns for very long.
Now for your information I have been a gunsmith and a very experirenced machinist for more years the you have been around anywhere.
One last thing I did not have one flatened primer and all were chronagraphed by me.
with my 3920 fps 87 grain bullets.

It might be ugly to you but that is another thing you all keep proving how uneducated you are. before you can be a KNOW IT ALL like all of you do you have to experience it first which none of you have and then give all the BS advice that you get from only hear say and spread it every where.

my 25-06AI has been shooting that very same load for 25 years and I am still here to talk about it so do I know what I am talking about?
I will accept you apology as yes I have checked out every thing in what I do.
From eye wittnessed by me I have seen what an oxengen bottle with only 2,500 pounds pressure in it can do. it completely destroyed the inside of a machine shop and poked holes in the cement block walls.
So don't you think I do respect 50,000 pounds of pressure in my face.
For hot loads I have bought PMC ammo that all of them were completely blowing out the primers. As for all the newer load books I will tell you that you can take any load in any caliber and load hotter than max 2 3 & maybe 4 grains hotter and still be safe. Thats how much all of you are misinformed or uneducated. If you don't believe take one and load it up until it just starts to flaten your primer.
and if all you that are still wet behind the ears would listen to people like

Keith, splattermatic and ackman and even me

you may be a lot smarter pretty quick.
you can not learn when your mouth is running full speed.
remember stop and smell the roses.

First I want to thank you for your service in the Navy.
But this may surprise you I more that likely made a lot of the parts on the plane you was flying I worked in the air craft compenies for 45 years everything from the first rockets in space the first cruise missles to the F-15's 1960 to 2005
I even made the hook that stopped you on landing on board.

You must know Lee24?

Subjectivity and taste have little to do with educational background. Surely you, being sooooo wonderfully intelligent, understand that.

Bottom line is velocity is directly tied to pressure. You can't have one without the other. Convince yourself of whatever you want. Deny that there is a direct correlation. I'd say there's a majority of fellas here that have run wildcats quite a bit so you haven't cornered a new market. Wanna understand pressure relationships give Charlie Sisk a call. Wanna get a fair idea of your pressure, try quickload.

You guys wanna run your rigs at velocities and pressures above sammi specs. go for it, but don't try and convince everyone that it's acceptable. There have been a number of cases where guns have blown up and the cause was an overcharge of powder. Your justification that it hasn't happened to yo yet doesn't mean it won't. I've personally seen a bolt with cracked lugs from overloading. Luckily caught before somebody had a big accident.

I don't buy the whole wildcat thing either. You're advocating running charges that are well over equivalent sammi specs in known cartridges and there are young guys on this forum that don't have the sense to know better than to go try this sort of thing themselves.

You wanna do it go ahead, chlorine in the gene pool, but stop trying to convince other people to jump in with ya.

Amen!

If your so well educated, maybe you should take a few classes on reading comprehension. Go back and re-read or better yet maybe have someone else read my original post. Didn't claim I was an expert or invented the gun, didn't claim anything. Just posted data...

Must be pretty insecure with yourself to keep making references to how old you are. How the hell do you know what kind of education or age everyone is here,oh wait YOU DON'T. And when it comes down to it, who cares how old anyone is? What relevance does that have on anything anyways?



Maybe if you want to go back and re-evaluate your statements and say hey, this is what I'm doing and these are the results I'm getting it would come off a little different. Honey will generally catch more fly's than vinegar.

Lee is gone for what? A week now? And we've already found a replacement. Arrogant prick.

You guys wanna run your rigs at velocities and pressures above sammi specs. go for it, but don't try and convince everyone that it's acceptable. There have been a number of cases where guns have blown up and the cause was an overcharge of powder. Your justification that it hasn't happened to yo yet doesn't mean it won't. I've personally seen a bolt with cracked lugs from overloading. Luckily caught before somebody had a big accident.

/quote]

Sounds like you would be the firt guy to tell P.O. Ackley he did not know what he was doing. Ever wonder why gun makers have not chambered rifles in Ackley chambers? SAAMI is the answer to that question. I wonder how many hudreds of thousands of actions have an Ackley chamber on them, that shoot over SAAMI spec pressures for the parent cartridge.

No one knows of actions that have blown up with the exception of substitution of the wrong powder that I have first hand knowledge of.

You guys that do not like wild cats, I take it that the only reason that you visit the "Wild Cat" section on this board is argue with people?

I'd rather not waste time taking this any further. Frankly, I think you know you're running a risk if you go above 65K with the pressures. To ignore it or argue that "wildcatting" has somehow taught you to knowlegeably go past that limit is simply irresponsible. As I've said, it's up to you if ya wanna do it. Just don't advocate it for the younger less knowledgeable folks that might be reading this forum. Especially, when you espouse it in such as way as to suggest it's without risk.

I don't mind preachers as long as they keep their message confined to their own church.

You are right Keith we are wasting our time talking to a bunch of experts that know wildcats so well But yet they are afraid of them and they know for serton that we are running over 65,000 pressure with AI cartriges. I don't know about you but I use the same primers as these know it all's do and my primers don't flaten one bit. So I don't know they can explaine that do you? They also belive that all their spanking brand new load manuels are the holy Bible in reloading and even with the max loads being a long ways from max they are still to much of a coward to load one that hot. I really believe if every one had been like these guys we would for sure still be riding horses because none of them are smart enough to think of anything on their own they just wait in line for a blind man to come by and lead them through life you can tell that by the way they post stupid stuff that they have not took the time to get educated about what they are talking about. None of these boy's have a AI rifle of their own but they can sure tell you everything you want to know about it. What a joke! ! ! ! !
I'm sure GLAD we didn't go to the school these boy's did where you don't have to know or learn anything to finish it with flying colors. From what they are telling us I think we had better get some primers that are 2 times thicker so we won't know which shot is going to kill us.
SINCE MY 25-06AI IS SO DANGEROUS I THINK I WILL TRY AND SELL IT TO SOMEONE THAT IS NOT AS SMART AS THESE BOY'S ARE AND BUILD ME A 25-375 WEATHERBY MAG OR A 6MM/300 WIN MAG IT WILL NOT BE NEAR AS DANGEROUS FOR YOU AND I.
FROM WHAT I HAVE LEARNED HERE ON THIS TOPIC I WOULD REALLY BE AFRAID TO BUILD A 223AI NOW IT WILL BLOW UP IN YOUR FACE FOR SURE.
I GUESS AI STANDS FOR (APPROCH WITH IGNORANCE)
KEITH HOW IN THE WORLD COULD YOU AND I HAVE BEEN SO STUPID. I'M GOING BACK TO SHOOTING RABBITS WITH MY 416 RIGBY I KNOW IT'S SAFE