Kind of curious about this cartridge. I have an Win 70 Classic magnum action that needs a makeover. I am covered on the larger calibers. About my only gap is something that shoots really flat. A 270Win using 130gr at 3100fps is as fast/flat as I get right now. Any weaknesses, hard to get good loads, etc? Is brass a PITA to find? I only reload so factory ammo is not an issue.

RH

I shoot one in a Vangaurd, 24" barrel and still get 3500 fps with 100 grain bullets. Load development was pretty easy, it shoots TSX, Interlocks, Partitions and AB's very well. The worst load is the Partition and it goes right at an inch. I buy Norma brass from Cabelas in the 50 count box, so it doesnt hurt as much when you checkout. Some on here make their own brass, I think they use 7mm Rem Mag as the parent case. Have it rebarreled. I wanted a 257 Wby forever, wish I wouldnt have waited so long to scratch that itch.

I had Pac Nor build two customs with the 10" twist and three groove barrels with a reamer with zero freebore. I got three shot groups with the bullets touching using about any 100g Bullet at 3800 fps+.

A gunsmith in San Diego gave me the idea when we were hunting with his built on a Mauser. It is really hard to comprehend just how flat shooting a 100g Bullet is at 3800+ fps with the extreme accuracy.

I know of 4 other guys that has used Pac Nor build them the same type of custom and they all are extremely accurate and fast.

Norma brass is soft. If you can find any PMC brass, it will last indefinately. I neck size till the forth or fifth firing, then full length size. So far, I have 12 firings on a case before the primer pockets get loose.

I killed two does with mine on a powerline at 325 yards with 100g Nosler Ballistic Tips. The first was shot and a total bang flop. A few minutes later, a second doe walks out and starts licking the first doe, bang flop right on top of the first! With a muzzle break on the rifle, I actually saw the water vapor fly off the deer...the rifle barely moved from recoil.

The 257 was Roy Weatherby's favorite cartridge...nuff said!

Get one,smile and never look back.....brass isn't hard to find but it's not cheap

keith-

3800+ is hauling. How long of a tube on yours?
Mine has really never been pushed - 3640 was about as high as I've gone. Just under 3600 is where it's found bliss.

Lots on here can tell you more, I wanted one forever but always talked myself out of it..."don't need a magnum, brass is to spendy blah blah blah"...finally picked one up and wish I would have done it years ago. Loaded some TSX's and AB's both shoot scary accurate and it's fun to shoot. Didn't have any problem finding Weatherby brass at the Sportsmans Warehouse, Bass Pro had the dies. That 25 cal AB was the first thing I've shot at a deer other than a 7-08 or an arrow in many many moons...bang flop

Go for it, you won't be sorry. Keep it 8lbs or less, free-bore is fine, but please don't try to run 100gr bullets at 3800fps unless you have a 30" barrel.

Brass is easy yet spendy and reloading is straight forward. If you go with a 26" barrel, expect 85 grainers at around 3800, 100 grainers at around 3600, 110's at 35'ish, 115's at 34'ish, and 120's at 3300.

Most guys here recomend the 100gr TSX with a stiff load of RL-22 but don't overlook the bonded bullets either. I currently shoot the 110 Accubond at 3450fps (25" barrel)out of mine and I'm working with the 100gr Scirocco now. With it's higher B.C. and abilty to be pushed faster, it should be superior to most anything else.

I've taken 9 deer and 4 coyotes thus far with my 257 Bee and all were D.O.T.S. As I related to someone else earlier today, my 11 year old son says that my rifle does'nt just kill deer it burns them down.....classic!

X-VERMINATOR

i just got one about 4months ago and it is easy to load for easy to get claim velocity and 7mm mag brass one pass through the sizer die and u have brass yeah i say get it u wont regret it

Nice cal, very user friendly and yet very capable!

I'd go 25", I'd think for the most part once you hit 3600 with the 100's you'll be pretty much topped out.

7828 is the powder I used the most back when I ran one, but most seem to use R22 and JB likes one of the Ramshots in his.

Nice round, but keep it what it is and don't try to make it what it aint.

I run a 6/06 and a 7 Mashburn Super so for me the round doesn't hold as much appeal anymo but dats just me.

Dober

It's an awesome cartridge. To get the most from it, do like Keith did and have a reamer made. Although we use PMC brass which is very strong, the reamer is spec'd with shorter chamber length so's to use 7Mag brass, minimal neck clearance, and NO freebore. After hearing his results I had to have one built. With 29"Hart barrel, 100's are doing 4010. Trajectory is very flat. In this barrel the 100gr Bal Tip is only so-so accurate, but all three Sierra 100's shoot 1/4". That btsp at 4000 just explodes a rockchuck.

Sounds like you guys like your 257s. What about twist? 10 or 12? I plan to shoot 100gr and up. Certainly the TSX is in the cards along with the AB. I'm thinking a 26" Douglas #2 or 3 contour would be about right.

RH

I love mine for sure! I just picked up another and am ready to wring it out a little. I get my 100 TTSX's at about 3575 around 1/2".

Can't deny its merits, but it's a bit much for any of my needs. As fond as I am of the quarter bore, I guess I should have one. Inside 400-500 yards, what is it going to do that a 25-06 or its AI version isn't capable of? That's not rhetorical; I'm curious to know too. Kinda pricey to feed as well (not that it should matter to me the way money burns a hole in my pocket! )

Wish I would have picked one up 10 years ago. One flat shootin' S.O.B. with not much recoil. It does burn quite a lot of powder for the speed but you only live once........YMMV.

Love Mine!!

Even with long barrels the velocities you zero freebore guys quote make me think you're running freebore type powder charges in them.

OCC,

It probably isn't that much different than a 25-06AI but I don't have a .473 LA to put one in. I only have a .532.

RH

With good bullets like the TSX capable of handling high impact velocities, I can't think of a better open country round than the 257 Wby or it's ilk like the 264 WM. I got one a couple months ago and haven't had the chance to fine tune a load but I'm running the 110 gr Accubond at 3500 fps with IMR 7828 out of a 26" Ultra Lightweight. My brass started out as virgin Winchester 7mm Rem Mag, worked great.

24" vanguard here.







need i say more ? !

IMO yes, because it isn't typical. You've left out all of the conversation you, I and others had when when you first posted that.

I know I've posted stuff about the .257 Wby. many times here, but here goes again-

I shoot a Wby Fibermark, 26" bbl. By far, the best load I've worked up for it is 72.0 gr. of RL22, factory Wby brass, CCI 250 primers, Barnes 100 gr. TSX bullets, for a MV of 3700+ fps.
Accuracy is exceptional.

Over the past 25+ years of owning this rifle, it has accounted for a passel of game, including a sheep grand slam, pronghorns, mule and whitetail deer, elk, caribou, and coyote. Last big critter to fall to the .257 was a cow elk, December 2008.

As far as brass goes- I have in the past bought some new, unprimed Wby brass, but most of my handloads use brass from once-fired factory ammo. I find brass life to be pretty good in this cartridge.

Personally, I'd go 10 and I'd also go Schneider, Krieger, Bartlein, Hart, Shilen and would take a pass on the Dougy..

Dober

i don't really think we need to hash that back up. it eats ragged holes, brass life is great, and i don't have any trouble seating primers. the load i use is just fine in my rifle.
fast barrel ?
excessive free bore ?

all i can say is it shoots great, 100 gr. tsx's fly like a laser, and it kills.

what you use in your rifle and what i use in mine, may not be fine in someone else's rifle.

they are all the same and we all know, different as well.

someone explain that to me....

was one made with a new reamer, and another someone has with a worn down dull one ?

look at the 264 wm issues i posted, and many others have the same thing happening and some don't.
why ?
there's no reason to rehash the original postings about what i get for velo's, and start with unsafe, etc...
it works just fine in my rifle and that's what it shoots.
i didn't post my load so anyone who loads can do what they want, and go as hot as they want. if they get a stuck bolt, or blown primers, they will figure out soon enough that they need to back off.
i get none of those issues.

you say it's not typical. not from what some post. but in mine it is.
right above me is a post with 3700+ fps from a 26" tube. so, let's say 25 fps per inch slower so i should be getting 3700 fps. roughly.
fast barrel issue again ? because i'm running a bit more powder ? most likely.
i'm not bragging mine is a supper dupper, seein all, dancin all, whizz bang 257. just that's what i shoot and that's what my rifle spits bullet out at.
nothing more.

I don't know what "freebore type powder charges" are. Both my rifles were done with that same reamer. Accuracy loads with 2 different powders wound up being about exactly the same as Keith's and several other guns also chambered with that reamer. This barrel has a 12" twist. And PMC Wby brass is much harder than anything else out there. With a good barrel, well-spec'd chamber and good brass, performance is impressive.

A freebore type powder charge is one that has been lab tested as a max charge for a regular Weatherby chamber with freebore.

Run one of those, or factory ammo for that matter, in a zero freebore chamber and it isn't surprising that velocities are high. The laws of physics not being dependent on a particular chamber reamer, it's a pretty good bet that pressures are higher too.

I have been using one off and on for about 20 or so years. The most deadly deer cartridge I have ever used. Been using Barnes 100gr X, XLC, TSX and now TTSX's running at 3800fps or so with moly in 27.5 inch tubes. Brass is easy to get, especially if you use 264 WinMag brass necked up. I now prefer WBY/Norma brass but the Winny stuff works great. Try it, you will like it!

Velocity ain't free...

I've said it before, run Keiths velocities and sooner or later you will be able to legally park next to the door at the grocery store..........


X-VERMINATOR

Say it all you want, still bullsh#t.

Lee is that you???


X-VERMINATOR

You missed the point. I don't know what the actual powder charge would be with my lot of powder in this barrel with this brass, this primer, if it had a sloppy SAAMI chamber with freebore. You don't either. All that matters is what works in this gun.

Factory ammunition won't come near chambering in these guns......the neck is short for use with 7Mag brass. Wby cases have a very long neck and are trimmed .050" to fit.
A 100gr bullet just off the lands seats to where the neck/shoulder radius begins.

What load are you running then?

I'm not Lee.

It's Reloder 22 with 100gr bullet. Another load is with IMR 4831. It shows no overpressure in my rifles or Keith's.

How much?

To whom it may concern, do a search.....you will see a pattern.


X-VERMINATOR

Doesn't matter. If you have one of these guns, all that matters is what works best in yours. If you don't have one, then it really doesn't matter. Either way I don't want a pissing match with a self styled ex-purt about what shoots in my gun.

It's not important to me.

No pissing, just physics. Your gun, my gun, whoever's gun.

m

All fussing aside, I gotta say, everytime I get myself calmed down and decide to just fart around with Wal-Mart calibers (.223, .22/250, .243 & .308) y'all start yammering about the .257 WM.

I start thinking about a slippery 100-grainer at way over 3,500 fps and my vision blurs...

A little drool starts slipping out the corner of my mouth...

I start scheming on how to create a diversion so that my wife doesn't notice a pawnshop Savage 7mm RM sidling into the house...

And meeting my hunting buddy UPS man a mile or so away when the new barrel arrives...

Gotta start Zen breathing again.

My sentiments exactly....I was wanting some kind of whiz bang laser gun for shooting 450 yds and under and was considering the Roy...amongst others...
Getting a screaming deal on a nice .243 thatll spit 85 grainers out pretty flat ended that whole lustful train of thought.....






Or so I believed at the time......


Ingwe

Ingwe,

Got my ol' 788 .243 that is a bugholer with 85 gr. Fed BTHPs, and a screaming deal on a clean 700 BDL, but man, .257 BBs 300+ fps faster...

Might have to build me one and paint it up like my ol' favorite aircraft to work on pictured below, call it "Blackbird" or "Habu"...

There's nothing new about this. A gunsmith in Dalton Ga is Ackley Improving the 257 Weatherby, necking it up to 6.5, and shooting the 120g bullets between 3650 and
700 fps.

Last time I talked to the gunsmith, he had built over 150 of the rifles in the 6.5/257 Roy A.I.

He uses Rem 700's and Win Model 70's for a platform with 26" barrels, none of his guns have blown up yet. I reckon he does not know his ass from third base either.

Most of the die hard wild catters will not even post on this board due to the BS like you read on this post.

It would really shock most people to know the pressures that a 6PPC generates that benchrest shooters use in the loads that win matches.

Four of us put together Five 257 Roys a few years ago. We had Dave Kiff make us a reamer specifically throated for the 115 Berger VLD. The barrels were all 3 groove SS lilja ranging in length from 24 inches to 28 inches. Components: moly coated Berger 115 VLDs, Norma brass, Fed 215 match primers, and RL 25. Bullet jump ranged from .070" to .100".

Since we built them, eight western deer (Coues wt and mule deer) were taken as well as three elk. This bullet/barrel/chambering combination flat out performs! Distances ranged from just over 600 yds to 150 yds with some kills being DRTs. I watched my friend Walt shoot
a coues wt this fall at 400 yds from my 28" Roy. The shot was behind the shoulder with the deer exactly square to the shooter. It was an instant drop dead with not even a twitch.

I would encourage any long distance deer/antelope hunter to give this combination a try. The 257 Roy is very popular here for a reason. It offers the perfect combination of flat trajectory, killing power and reasonable recoil. It is fun to use for the occasional jackrabbit/coyote too.

I do not run anywhere near the velocities that some of you do. But my 24" barreled ULA is about a perfect deer and antelope gun even at more pedestrian speeds. And with a turreted scope, pushing to the pedal to the firewall doesn't buy all that much, anyway.

Now that I read this post it seems we aren't exactly arguing the same point.

I'm using a basic physics line of reasoning to suggest you are quite probably running pressures in excess of the commonly accepted maximum.

I now believe that you are not denying my assertion, but instead are saying the pressures that get your velocities are whatever they are, they are fine in your rifle, and you will continue operating at that level.

If that's the case then I'm willing to shake hands and let it drop because I've found that arguing philosophy instead of physics is what gets people heated.

m

physics is fine. given a steel composition,strength per thickness equasion, now add in the strength of 2 lugs locking into that steel, there is a giving point.
now steel is not all made equal, so some is weaker than others even from the same batch.
one may come apart at a certain pressure and another way take even more.
just like anything made.
look at vehicles, one may run forever, and another be a problem child.

there are standards and mathematical formulas to determine what is a safe pressure for a given steel and thickness, but only trial and error will tell what it can handle.
my 280ai, with a common recommended load of vv n165 blew primers and i couldn't use them again as the primers just fell out after reloading those 2 rounds.
2 was enough to tell me that this recommended load wasn't going to be safe in MY rifle. but why others ?

yes, physics, pressure, steel, conditions, tempt's, etc., all come into play on reloading.
but i, and many others, think rifles are as different as people.
they all have their own unique personalities.

Nosler brass?

yep !
i know crappy brass, but it's what i got to get started with a new round.
when i get time to play more, i'm going to get some factory 280 ammo, and shoot em to fireform new, better brass.

i think remington brass is better than nosler to some point.


and now that you bring this up.

brass should be included in the above reply.

crappy brass also has something to do with pressures and what's safe and not.

I had my suspicions. Folks who load the 280AI tend to firewall it so commonly recommended loads are often hot.

I don't load the 280AI but I do load the 308 so I can give a pertinent example there. Suppose someone asks me for a top load with a 168 grain bullet. Well my 308 really likes 46 gr. RL15 under a 168 Nosler CC in WW brass which is thin, capacious and tough. But all I tell them is "46 of RL15" and they go stick that straight into the soft, thick lower capacity Nosler brass they just bought. Any guesses as to what will happen? You wouldn't be guessing because you already saw it in your 280AI.

True, but there may be different reasons.

The brass acts as a gasket. If the gasket is soft or weak it will show pressure signs and wear out well below the level that would stress the pressure vessel (gun). But if you get a tough enough gasket you can run the vessel through pressure cycles that will fatigue it without blowing gaskets all the time. Integrate enough fatigue and the vessel itself can let go.

yep.

Not slamming that gunsmith or anyone else who develops their own cartridge, hats off to them. I just wonder what you gain by that particular conversion? The 264 WM has a longer rim to shoulder length than the 257 Roy. What powder capacity advantage (if any) would you gain with an AI'd necked up 257 Roy?

I'm also glad to see the tone of this thread improve. I think mathman hit it. Guys may be running over SAAMI but they aren't claiming not to. Merely that is the load they run.

Will there is the damn problem right there!! You're listening to some North Georgia sumbitch about how to do something properly! Don't trust a damn soul from Dalton, Georgia!! They might convince you to marry them and have four children!!!!! TRUST ME!!

Hey I resemble that remark!

RH

Sambo, I can't answer your question. For some reason, the gunsmith developed the 6.5/257 Weatherby AI after working with the 257 Weatherby with zero freebore or close to zero free bore. The 6.5/257 Weatherby AI also had minimal freebore. I met 4 guys that owned rifles in this caliber, and they were all grins. One of the guys was coming back from the range after a load development session and he had some very small groups that he had shot.

None of this stuff is new, just very few folks that wild cat will ever come on a board like this and talk about it for reasons very evident in this post. I did not make up this stuff, I learned from different gunsmiths that have built hundreds of these kinds of rifles.

Load development for these wild cats do not differ from any other cartridge, watch for pressure signs, back off when you see them. Scuffed case heads, ejector marks on case head, thinning lettering on the back of the case head, flattened primers, cratered primers(maybe), hard extraction, loose primer pockets are all signs of high pressure. If you only have to neck size a case after firing is what I look for, have not blown up a gun yet in 30+ years of shooting wild cats.

Pac Nor has a great reamer for a 257 Weatherby with zero freebore, or send them 3 dummy cases with the bullet seated at the depth you want, and they will throat the chamber for that seating depth at no extra charge. I sight in my 257 Weatherby at 1/2" high at 200, and I am dead on at 300 shooting the 100's at 3850. My rifle shoots 1/2" groups at 200 yards with the 6-24 Pentax. Crows do not have a prayer with this rifle.

Gunsmith in Texas specializes in 25/06's...every good Texican should own a 25/06.

He uses 26" Shilen #5 contour, 1-12 twist, R#25, 100g Sierra flat base and Sierra 117g Flat base bullets only, with Fed 215's. Velocity with the Sierra 100's is 3650 and 3350 with the Sierra 117's, using tough winchester brass only. Groups with the 100's is in the .375 range and in the .425 range with the 117's. Pressure is low on the 100's and the only thing that I did was neck size the cases; pressure on the 117's was max, needing full length sizing after firing, but no heavy bolt lift or case head scuffing.

The 1-12 twist will not shoot a 100g Hornady, Nosler, or Barnes bullet of any style, only the 100g Sierra Flat base and the Sierra 117g Flat base will stabalize in the 1-12 twist.

This may or may not interest the quarter bore shooters.

This particular rifle belongs to a friend. I was telling him about my 257's when it came up in conversation that he was receiving the 25/06 from Texas where he has a 25,000 acre deer lease. He asked me to load his ammo and work up the load. I called the gunsmith and he gave me the load. I did not question his judgment, however crazy it sounded to me. I loaded the ammo, set up my Ohler 35P, and simply could not believe the accuracy, velocity, and lack of pressure on the 100's. I only tried the loads that the gunsmith told me to use. It was the first time in my life that it only took me 4 rounds to sight in the gun and another six rounds to develop two extremely accurate loads with two different bullet weights. I of course verified the loads on two different days to ensure the stability of the loads, and nothing changed...accuracy with extreme speed.

I can't say that I understand the dynamics of this Texican's load, I just except it for what it is after meeting 4 other guys that have rifles built by the same guy that shoot the same load. These guys cull a lot of deer and hogs every year.

wouldn't argue with you about what ya like or what ya do, but I would question your perspective on the pressure. Read some of Layne Simpson's original load workup for the 7 STW and some of those and see what the pressures turned out to be when tested. With a fully trued action you will not see the standard pressure signs you talk about necessarily until you're well up there. Not to say you can't run 'em at those pressures if ya want to, but I suspect you're running higher pressure than you think.

No such thing as a fast barrel or any of the other things that people talk about as justifications for why a load is runnin' faster than book. Basically it's just a way of sayin' that something is causin' higher pressure which produces the higher velocity.

Velocity ain't free.

enjoy

Mimimal twist HAS to be a factor with that Texas 25-06. 1 in 12 should help in gaining some velocity. I know Lazzaroni uses mimimum twist on his rifles and they scream. Can't remember where I read it maybe PO Ackley's double book set. IIRC it has something to do with less energy lost due to the decreased twist.

We know bearing surface and freebore also can increase or decrease energy loss which translates into more or less velocity.

Perhaps someone can add to this?

I once did a calculation for a similar situation and it turns out the energy carried by the projectile due to its angular velocity is pretty small compared to that from the linear component.

Changing the twist from 10" to 12" won't save enough energy from rotation to put into forward motion to get the reported velocities.

I've seen references to pressure tested data that twist rate effects pressure very little to not at all. Moderate twists don't enable screaming speeds conventional wisdom be damned. .

You don't need a Magnum action for a 257 Weatherby (length wise) as it is about the same length as a 270 WCF. So if you have a REAL magnum action (3.6" oal loaded) I would not waste it on a 257 WM.
Better to sell it for big bucks and buy a MOA Vanguard.

Will it do anything a 270 WCF will not? I doubt it in practical hunting. It's a favorite Antelope cartridge where I live, but I manage to kill a couple every year and don't own a 257 WM.

Still a neat cartridge and I am no one to talk as I built a 244 H&H.

Thanks for the advice and you're right. It is not a true magnum action - just a standard LA with a magnum bolt face. If it was then a 300H&H would be in order.

I already own a 270 so I don't really need a 257WyM but need has nothing to do with it!

RH

I think you're good-to-go. Just pick a maker and order yourself a nice 25 caliber barrel! Ought to be a fun build.

I really HATE every one of you

Other than lusting after a .280 AI for some time now and knowing that, it'll be my first real custom. I now somehow seem to think I need a .257. And of course I found a NIB SPS just down the street from where I work.


**Must resist**

Throw a 100gr X at 3600fps and head to the barn.

More temptation...

Thinking on how twist rate affects pressure and the possibility of attaining more/less velocity, I built three rifles to do some testing over a three year period, a 22/250 AI with a 1-15 twist, a 223 with a 1-9 twist, and a 22 PPC with a 1-9 twist.

I wanted to see just how fast I could push a Berger 22 caliber 65g HP with extreme accuracy, and how the 1-9 twists would enable the bullets to blow up better on p. dogs.

On the 22/250 AI with the 1-15 twist, I worked up a load in the 27" Hart Barrel with the 65's at 3700 fps that shot very tiny groups. This bullet was so effective on those large coyotes it was hard to believe. Too bad berger quit making this bullet. This load would blow bobcats and foxes half in two. I got this info from a fellow hunter that had a rifle built in the same way, he painted air planes for a living and I thought sure as heck that he had sniffed too much paint. He was spot on in his loads.

Concerning the 223 and the 22 PPC with the 9" twists,I built the 223 on trued 700 action, McMillen Hunter class benchrest stock with a 27" Hart barrel MHV Barrel. On the 22PPC I had 24" Hart #7 contour barrel Put on a Sako A-1 Action in a McMillen Sako Varmint stock.

I had several other custom 223's of the same design but with a 1-14 twist, and at least 3 other 22 PPC's in Benchrest rifles with 1-14 twist rates, all these rifle's barrels were cut with the same reamer that had .0005 over bullet dia throats and zero freebore, with 1 1/2* leade angles.

During the testing of the 223 with the 1-9 twist, I noticed that the sweet spot in accuracy that was easily attainable at the higher node in the 1-14 twist was not attainable in the 1-9 twist without super hard extraction and opening up the primer pockets in the IMI brass that is super tough. Also, the range of powder weight in the 1-9 twist that would shoot tiny groups was very small, indicating that as temp and barometric pressure changes that so would the load's accuracy potential.

With all the 22 PPC's that I had, the 1-9" twist was very picky on what it liked to shoot bug holes with. A 22PPC with a 1-14 twist is one of the most "user friendly" cartridges a guy can play with. No doubt that the 1-9 twist was no where near as user friendly as the 1-14 twists, due to pressure spikes.

This is way off topic of a 257 Weatherby, but thought that it may be interesting at how twist rates affect pressures to some of you.

Damn blue tape......

That's the rifle I lust for in a .280 AI, wouldn't have a problem in the world with a matching one in .257 either.

Only wish I had another zero at the end of my checkbooks balance.

Love my 257 Vanguard. Test target has a 1/2" group. First 10 boxes of ammo cost more than the rifle. Still, no regrets.

[img:center][/img]


[img:center][/img]

cripes, and here i was thinkin i couldnt possibly justify another deer rifle, and then you folks go posting up some pix of these 257's. and i have a .25 fetish already. i see a new project and a thiner wallet in the future.

some questions...

1) how much oomph does the .257Wby gain over the 25/06AI ??
i ask because i have a remmy sendero stainless fluted in 25/06, might make more sense to punch it out. it has a 26" tube..but i'm leaning towards something lighter. and that gives me an excuse for another gun.

2) i'm a cheap bastid at heart, and already have a bunch of 7mm rem mag brass (and no 7mag either)...aside from possibly neck turning, will those do for reforming to .257wby? or i should say, can i reform those with standard full length .257wby dies so i dont have to buy a set of forming dies?

3) .257Wby versus .257STW...what made you go with the .257Wby?

4) buulets on whitetails...how do the 117's/120's hold up at zippy speeds?

all thoughts & opinions welcomed.

Regards;

Gerald

Cheap and 257 Weatherby don't mix.

STWs just burn up barrels faster and are hardly a "factory cartridge"

All you need for deer in a 100 gr TSX it will NEVER come apart.

Interesting stuff Keith .

Have been playing with my first .257 Weatherby and am so far favorably impressed. Have killed a pronghorn, a pig, my biggest Whitetail buck and a whitetail doe. Additionally, a hunting partner killed his pronghorn with it too. The farthest anything has run was about 30 yards. Been shooting 80gr TTSXs at about 3700. Not a hot load by any stretch, but that's what it likes. Also shows great promise with 110gr Accubonds and 115gr Ballistic Tips. Haven't found the magic load yet with 100gr TTSXs. They don't shoot bad for me, about an inch or so, but not nearly as well as the stuff the rifle really likes. I have been using Winchester 7 mag brass, but I think as I attrit that, I'm gonna replace it with Norma Brass. Not completely satisfied with the runout I am getting from the Winchester brass, with most stuff coming in at about .003" to .004". IMR 7828 does pretty well, and R25 may end up being better, especially with heavier bullets. Not done with load testing yet, but so far, with both 110gr Accubonds and 115gr Ballistic Tips and R25, the warmer the charge, the tighter the groups. Also eager to see what I can do with 115gr VLDs, as the 155gr version has been the fastest killer I have used in my .308.

John

.257 Wby is a wicked mother.

I dont know how you blokes think you can get good performance from a mere push feed. Don't you listen to the CRF experts? A rifle is not worth zip for anything unless it is a CRF.

IknowIknowIknow.............lol...........mine gets good performance "sniff sniff."

a pick with wood i got from a fine gentleman in oregon. you know who you are...

I didn't get that memo either....


First three down the new pipe prior to working up a "good load"...

Scott,

I think you fudged your group size. That lower left bullet hole is clearly farther out than your calipers are measuring.

All this talk about the 257 Roy got me opening the gun safe, fondling the crappy 700 SPS push feed, and ordering a new Classic Edge for it today.

thanks, guys...

Your welcome

What r friends for anyway eh...

Dober

Not knocking the 257 Weatherby but the 25-06AI will get 3920 fps with the 87 grainers and with 10 grains less powder and brass is not hard to get when you can neck down 270 win and 30-06 too. Cheap brass

right...

Lassie
What load are you using to get 3950 with 100 grtain bullets in a 25/06 AI?

Lassie-not knocking you but 3920 with a 25/06AI and 87's is really out there...either you're toting a 30" plus barrel and or a rubber mallet to pound the bolt open..

What length tube and what is your load data to get a 87 to 3920?

And trust me when I say that I'm not the only one who's gonna call on this one.

Thx
Dober

Guess I'm a bit slow tonight...

Dober


(Calvin, you got that 25/284 perking and ready for spring bruins?)

Dober,

That would be magic pixie dust he's using for powder..

I want to shoot a black bear with a 162 Amax this spring..

25-284 is running fast with 100gr TSX's and RL17.

And snorting as well...grin

Dober

That'll work! For some reason or another I'm sure... Out of a lil 7 I take it?

Also, seems to me you help some young guys on the hunt. You taking any of them for bruins?

Dober

Yep, that's well beyond the loaded to the gills factory 257 Wby. 87 grain ammo.

I spent the day with my 7saum and the 162amax. That bullet sure makes a guy feel like he can shoot. 1/4" 3 shot group put a smile on my face. I stopped short of pressure so I'll bring it up a few notches on the ladder on my next nice day.

2 of the boys are itching for a bear this spring, and are getting downright demanding for a Mtn Goat hunt next Aug. I think we will do a remote 4 or 5 day float trip down the honker divide on POW in early May for bears.

Dats cool and good on your for doing so. Can't recall are they your boys or some lads your helping out?

Thx
Dober

I HAD to keep it in the .5's.....

Well I hope your all happy, you just cost me some more money.

Put a deposit down on an SPS .257, now I've got to seriously think about a scope and I'm awfully tempted to order a McSwirly but think I'll hold off on doing that for now.

What a dummy the .257 Weatherby sucks

4000 fps with an 87???? Gibbs would love you!

The 257 Hawk gets a max of 3890 with a 75 and Fred says:
"75gr. 257 Hawk load above was tested in a Ruger #1, 26" barrel, 15 shots averaged, probably a little too hot for a bolt action."

You Ackely ballistics are almost as inventive as old P.O. himself!

A contemporary quote:"The typical Ackley Improved case gives a modest increase in velocity over the parent case - as long as both are loaded to the same pressures. All one has to do is look at modern tested loading data to verify this - the latest Nosler manual has a number of Ackley cartridges, and the average increase in velocity is on the order of 100 fps. This is simple ballistic fact, not clouded by the rantings and hype of guys trying to sell a product. There is just not enough increase in the case capacity to make a big difference in velocity."

A 257 WB gets 3825 w/an 87 (and free bore) but you are whupping that with a smaller case? It's gonna hurt pulling that bolt outa your head if you keep running 90k psi loads!

cal,
this crowd got to me too - just ordered an edge for my SPS Roy. The mcmillan classic it sits in now will be on the classifieds soon...

Don't believe everything you read.

Anybody got a line on a ss sps 257 roy? Were they a limited run or still available...I need one in a bad way.

Dropping one in a mickey (or even a b&c) with a good trigger and add a 4.5-14 VXIII or a 4-16 Monarch would be the jam.

ya had me til the scope choice...

PM Sent



Kimberman, what' color is your Mickey?

dvdegeorge,
and what scope may i ask would you suggest to complete the package?

You just need to line up the conditions right...

Move the sensors on your chronograph a little closer together, high elevation, and of course, the critical 500mph tailwind.

I'd opt for a VX III 3.5x10 or VX II 3x9 or fill in whatever manufacturer floats your boat...I'm just not keen on that much magnification an a hunting rig

My vanguard has the Nikon coyote 4.5 X14 on it. I'm happy with it and the varmint reticle seems to be perfect for the 257 roy ballistics

Black. See below:

has anyone here tried one of the remmy CDL-SF's in .257wby? still see quite a few of those on the auction sites.

You all convinced me. I ordered a Krieger #2 to be finished at 26" and PM'd Redneck to have him put it all together for me. It is going to be a while until I see it though since the Krieger rep told me it would be 18 weeks until I see the barrel. I also ordered a Williams 1 piece TG from Matt so this build should be top-notch all the way around.

Now the hard part...waiting!

RH

Hopefully the Williams unit won't be delayed too many months after the barrel arrives..

Are most here well satisfied with the Williams ADL trigger guards? Gonna need one for my 257 Edge switch...

Crap, just looked and see they don't do a stainless. Guess I'll have to cerakote the barreled action and the TG...

Matt said yesterday that he was running "in the white" ones now and it would ship today.

I've used several Williams ADL TGs on 700s and they are well worth the $.

RH

May already be too late but Lilja keeps SS #3 10" twist in stock. Lilja's run small contour wise and their #3's are about like some makers #2's......Best barrels on the market, IMO.



X-VERMINATOR

I saw a reference in this thread somewhere about 120-grain Partitions grouping less accurately than other bullets out of a Vanguard. Mine shoots them 3/4 in. consistently. It's my preferred hunting load for that rifle and has taken everything from coyotes, javelina and hogs to whitetail, pronghorn and mulies at distances from 20 yards to over 300. It shoots flat, hits hard and has never let me down.

The rifle is not a sub-MOA model, but obviously shoots MOA. My only modifications were an upgraded stock and a Timney trigger.

Please stop posting crap in this forum for Pete's sake .

Here's my POS BackCountry. Sucks shat. Group pictured is just a bit above average at 3575. Just shy of 8lbs.

.257 Wby is a dandy; the only one I like better is the .270 Wby. Only slightly less in the trajectory department, slicker bullets (better BCs), more power. It's the .257 on steroids...

It's hell on 'yotes too...





Kinda hard on the fur though...

Heres my el cheapo 26" Rem 700 SPS topped w/ a VX-III 3.5-10x40. Shoots bugholes at 200 yards with factory 100 grain TSX's. Heres a Bou I shot at 425 yards, temp was between -10 and -20 degrees F. I just hope its enough gun to kill lower 48 whitetails when I move south!

AC,
Figured you'd post on this one sooner or later - how's that factory SPS stock holding up for you?

Not bad, I gave it a [bleep] tan colored paint job, but it still works. If you recall I ordered a Mc Edge for it and it came with the wrong barrel contour, that sucked! Havent ordered another for it yet.

I am really sorry that you are not as educated as you think you are if you was you would not posted what you did!
But here is your first lesson about wildcats.

1 buy the two books that P O Ackley wrote then you can be as smart as you think you are!
2 buy you a rifle in 25-06 AI and a chronograph and see it for your self as I and many many more have done then you won't be calling me a liar as you are now.
3 with your attitude I really shouldn't be be going to the trouble to even answer your question about it in the first place.
4 get educated before you talk about something you know nothing about this only spreads stupidity I was maybe reloading before you dirtied your first diaper.
some times it is much better to lesson and keep your mouth shut then you have a chance to learn something in your case that is just a very slim maybe!
And the 25-06AI is not a barrel burner that every one thinks it is.

NOW HERE IS THE LOAD FOR 3920 FEET PER SECOND FROM A 25-06AI with 26 inch barrel
87 GRAIN BULLET
IMR 4831 POWDER 65.0 GRAINS
3920 FEET PER SECOND

now if you don't believe me look at
AMMOGUID.COM THIS IS WHERE THIS INFO WAS COPIED FROM
OR ACKLEY'S BOOKS

Now you will hear the 257 Weatherby will beat the 25-06 AI this true too but this is because the 257 has the same size brass as the 7mm remington mag infact you can make 257 brass from the 7mm mag all you have to do neck size it to 25 caliber.
If you want to learn a lot more about guns and ammo PM me. I will be more than glad to give the truth about any of them that I have had personal expirence with.
13 of my 32 rifles I built them myself.
Here is my 1896 mauser 22-250 with Richards Apache thumbhole
[img:center][/img]

So are you saying if it's printed somewhere it must be true?

I just grabbed the 49th edition of the Lyman reloading handbook, it's what was handiest. Page 172, 257 Weatherby

87g Jacketed SP
H-4831
max 73.0g
3731 fps

8g more of the same powder, pushing the same bullet and your getting 189fps more out of the same length tube? Lots of variables and you read about zero free-bore and such, but again it must be true because everything wrote down has to be true.

I'll be the first to admit I'm far from an expert on anything when it comes to guns or reloading, but sarcastic posts are getting to be an all to frequent thing around here. And I didn't think Marks response was bad at all, the follow up to it sounds like it should go into the Gun Shop BS thread located somewhere else.

LASSIE-

Chill the hell out man. Mark wasn't calling your kids ugly nor was he calling you a liar - simply questioning your speeds. If you wanna take offense to something, take offense to me calling that stock the fugliest thing I've ever seen.

I'd trust Mark's advice any day. I've yet to read anything but smart, "reasonable man" type responses from him.

I believe you are in fact getting those velocities with your rifle. I am not calling you a liar. I also believe that load is way over pressure and you are fool if you think it is safe unless the load has been pressure tested.
According to Hodgden, a standard 25-06 load using IMR4831 and an 87gr bullet gives about 3350fps. Your getting 600fps more. AI'ing a cartridge will not give you that much of a jump in performance without an associated huge jump in pressure.

Another one for ignore...

RH

The only 257 WBY I ever worked with was a friends Ruger MKII rebarreled with a 26" Shilen and Brown Precision stock. It would push 90 grain X's at 3,780-ish (RL22) and group them under .5 for five shots. Wicked accurate rifle.

Though a "book load" I suspect it was pushing the envelope... however, I'm of the opinion that many guys attracted to rounds like the 257 Wby, 6-06 and all the Ai's are more prone to redlining than the average 308 shooter

Boys please be nice we are all of the .25 bore persuasion

Rick made a comment about the barrel contour when I ordered. Instead of ordering factory mag b/c, he ordered it as the factory 257 weatherby magnum contour. Hope I don't end up in the same boat you were in...

+1

One thing that should be noted, if all you can comment on is excessive pressure, just shut up...you might learn something from a very experienced wildcatter.

I hear ya, I am no gunsmith, so I figured when I said 257 Weatherby , they would know what I needed. I think I got a sporter barel contour. May need to try ordering another one up sometime soon.

The magnum contour Edge fit my 257Wby M700 LSS. Would think the sporter contour would be a little tight...

700 SPS 257 wby mag. 26"bbl. this is the remington 700 magnum sporter contour. The regular sporter contour is smaller. It fits 270, 06, and the like.

Excessive pressure is what makes rifles come apart. Are you saying it is not important? All else being equal, more pressure = more velocity. I'd say it is important.

Sorry Keith, but there is nothing I want to learn from someone who shoots a 25-06AI to over 3900fps with an 87gr bullet. If LASSIE has pressure tested the load, then he has my apologies because he is doing things intelligently. If he hasn't, well then that is his business and I have no use for his advice.

RH

himmelrr, guys that talk about pressure have very little experience in shooting wild cat cartridges, and it is very obvious from their posts.

himmelrr, if everyone is going to have to provide you with pressure tests on their wild cat loads, I doubt if you will ever learn anything new.

Many benchrest rifles that are shot in Registered matches today are NOT within SAAMI spec loads, that is a good place to start learning.

I put a post on this board not long ago inquiring if anyone had ever heard of anyone ever blowing up an action on a modern rifle EXCLUDING cases where the wrong powder had been substituted in a reload. No one responded that they had actual experience in seeing one blow up.

Ferris Pendel made an action where they drove 8 bullets down the barrel, then fired a 60,000 psi load behind the 8 bullets in the barrel, and the action did not come apart.

One thing about LASSIE, he did offer anyone the chance to learn from him. Since he built his own rifles, I bet there is a world of knowledge there.

The mind has to be like a parachute to work properly....open.

Keith,

Very civil reply.

I guess you can color me cautious when it comes to my handloading. I do not like being a "test pilot" for how many over pressure (SAAMI) loads a standard action can withstand until it gives out. I just read the thread referencing rifles blowing up. It was interesting. I have an engineering degree (aerospace) and have been flying airplanes older than most folks on the forum so I know a thing or two about metal fatigue. I know I don't like it! I will also be the first to admit that I do not play with wildcats. My one and only venture is a 338-08 (now the 338 Federal) and there was a lot of loading data already available.

I just get concerned when folks with lots of experience in wildcatting post a load that is way over-book. Some putz is going to try that load in a standard 25-06 and hurt himself. I know, I know, it is Darwin at work but overall it is not a good thing. I have flown aircraft in all conditions and have a lot of experience landing on aircraft carriers. It is not for the non-trained pilot to attempt though.

I guess we can just leave it that my mind is closed to pushing the envelope in handloading. That is the way I want it and the way it will stay. Have a good evening my friend!

RH

When people want to look like they know about something they have no personal experience with, they'll quote scources. This here is a tell..."According to Hodgden..." Now this guy's automatically an authority because he saw it in the HodgdOn manual.

I've been through this crap too many times with self styled ex-purts who knew better than me what was happening with my rifle. On what grounds? Well, because possibly they don't know what they're doing and haven't got it right yet, or just as likely because of what they read in some reloading manual. But funniest thing.....look in the manual at the test setup. Different barrel, damn well a different chamber, different powder lot, different bullet, different brass and primer, and different seating depth. In other words, nothing's the same. And then there's the extreme paranoia necessary when publishing loads. Yet there're always people who say "that can't be right because the ----- manual says (such and such)."

The "ex-purts" love to cite pressure.....makes 'em sound knowledgeable. So I'll ask you himmelrr, how do YOU determine what's a safe load and what isn't? Do you pressure test loads? Or do the way most everyone does.....by letting the brass tell you. Brass is the weakest link in the system and it'll be in trouble long before the gun is in trouble. When someone says they're getting a certain level of performance, you saying the load's unsafe simply because of what you think or what you've interpolated from something you read - and not from actual experience with the cartridge - makes you look foolish.

himmelrr, thanks for your service to this country, I for one appreciate it.

I think that people's fear of metal fatigue is not well founded in modern bolt action rifles. I can not find one person, or gunsmith that has personal experience with an action blowing up from other than mistaken powders that have been substituted. There are actions that I would not build a wild cat on where I know that pressures are going to be high, however.

I think that it is reasonable to do some research before duplicating internet loads in your rifle and approach them with caution.

Most guys that shoot wild cats will not post loads in a "Wild cat" section like this due to the nay sayers, I know a lot of them. Your comment, "I just get concerned when folks with lots of experience in wildcatting post a load that is way over-book. Some putz is going to try that load in a standard 25-06 and hurt himself" is very well founded. There are contributing factors that lower pressures so that velocities can be reached safely, but the discussion never gets that detailed because that takes a number of experienced wild catters discussing the details on a public forum, they get shot down way too quickly.

I never will forget the first benchrest match that I went to in 1967, there were about 30 guys there, all of them had some kind of non-normal benchrest caliber and rifle they were shooting. It was a format that I have never seen since. These old timers were playing with calibers and guns in such a way that was extremely creative and sharing their ideas in some very constructive ways, then they sat down and tried to out shoot each other. You just do not see that kind of format very often anymore.

I'm really surprised on this board that there are not guys that are talking about the 6mm AI, 22/6mm, 22/243, 17 Predator, and so on and so forth...it's a real shame...knowledge lost forever.

You can think I'm a fool and I never said I was an expert. I will trust a manual that tested their loads and use them as a guide long before I trust random no-names from the internet and their loads. Have I tested my loads? Nope and I'll bet most don't either. I do agree with you though that brass is not good indicator of pressure.

RH

I have one Mauser action that has had 8 barrels shot out on it chambered in 6mm Rem...thats a lot of dead crows, rabbits, ground squirrels, and coyotes. I shot mostly two loads, a 60g bullet at 4000 and an 80g Bullet at 3600. This mauser action was made in the mid 80's.

I don't think that any falling block or break open action could take this kind of punishment, nor several other kinds of actions on the market today.

The SAAMI pressures have to be OK for all kinds of actions. Also, pressures sky rocket below -25*...they have to take that into account also.

You don't have to believe anything from me or anyone else. It's not about believing what someone else says. It's about realizing the manuals aren't gospel and that their data can vary considerably from one to another......and understanding why that is. Guns don't read. My load or your load or anyone else's can be very different from some manual and it'll be perfectly fine in a particular gun. Read the second paragraph in my post again. And no, I said brass is the weakest link and it will tell you what's happening.

yea !
finally someone else who see's things like i do.
i caught all kinds of grief over my velo's with my 257. i loaded to where it said it had enough, it loves the load, and tells me it's not over pressured yrt.

but alot of guys here say it is dangerously high pressured.

i have several different books, some being really old.
loads vary in them for the same powders from book to book.
i ask what's a favorite load for some calibers i am not familiar with, check books, and go from there.
but each gun will tell you when enough is enough.
i know ya can't make a 30-06 into a 300 rum, but i do want all the performance a given cartridge will deliver.
and sometimes even slow em down for a particular hunting situation where all the speed and blast isn't needed, when it's a favorite rifle.
but if i want out right performance, i'll load em til the rifle tells me it doesn't like it when i can't get good accuracy, or the brass says enough.


books aren't bibles.

Guess what I will be the first to tell you that you do not know what you are talking about either the book you are looking at is one that has all the loads in it reduced because all the lawyers have caused the powder compinies to do so for liabilities. all the older books had much hotter loads. so you just gave a good clue you are not experinced with guns for very long.
Now for your information I have been a gunsmith and a very experirenced machinist for more years the you have been around anywhere.
One last thing I did not have one flatened primer and all were chronagraphed by me.
with my 3920 fps 87 grain bullets.

It might be ugly to you but that is another thing you all keep proving how uneducated you are. before you can be a KNOW IT ALL like all of you do you have to experience it first which none of you have and then give all the BS advice that you get from only hear say and spread it every where.

my 25-06AI has been shooting that very same load for 25 years and I am still here to talk about it so do I know what I am talking about?
I will accept you apology as yes I have checked out every thing in what I do.
From eye wittnessed by me I have seen what an oxengen bottle with only 2,500 pounds pressure in it can do. it completely destroyed the inside of a machine shop and poked holes in the cement block walls.
So don't you think I do respect 50,000 pounds of pressure in my face.
For hot loads I have bought PMC ammo that all of them were completely blowing out the primers. As for all the newer load books I will tell you that you can take any load in any caliber and load hotter than max 2 3 & maybe 4 grains hotter and still be safe. Thats how much all of you are misinformed or uneducated. If you don't believe take one and load it up until it just starts to flaten your primer.
and if all you that are still wet behind the ears would listen to people like

Keith, splattermatic and ackman and even me

you may be a lot smarter pretty quick.
you can not learn when your mouth is running full speed.
remember stop and smell the roses.

First I want to thank you for your service in the Navy.
But this may surprise you I more that likely made a lot of the parts on the plane you was flying I worked in the air craft compenies for 45 years everything from the first rockets in space the first cruise missles to the F-15's 1960 to 2005
I even made the hook that stopped you on landing on board.

You must know Lee24?

Subjectivity and taste have little to do with educational background. Surely you, being sooooo wonderfully intelligent, understand that.

Bottom line is velocity is directly tied to pressure. You can't have one without the other. Convince yourself of whatever you want. Deny that there is a direct correlation. I'd say there's a majority of fellas here that have run wildcats quite a bit so you haven't cornered a new market. Wanna understand pressure relationships give Charlie Sisk a call. Wanna get a fair idea of your pressure, try quickload.

You guys wanna run your rigs at velocities and pressures above sammi specs. go for it, but don't try and convince everyone that it's acceptable. There have been a number of cases where guns have blown up and the cause was an overcharge of powder. Your justification that it hasn't happened to yo yet doesn't mean it won't. I've personally seen a bolt with cracked lugs from overloading. Luckily caught before somebody had a big accident.

I don't buy the whole wildcat thing either. You're advocating running charges that are well over equivalent sammi specs in known cartridges and there are young guys on this forum that don't have the sense to know better than to go try this sort of thing themselves.

You wanna do it go ahead, chlorine in the gene pool, but stop trying to convince other people to jump in with ya.

Amen!

If your so well educated, maybe you should take a few classes on reading comprehension. Go back and re-read or better yet maybe have someone else read my original post. Didn't claim I was an expert or invented the gun, didn't claim anything. Just posted data...

Must be pretty insecure with yourself to keep making references to how old you are. How the hell do you know what kind of education or age everyone is here,oh wait YOU DON'T. And when it comes down to it, who cares how old anyone is? What relevance does that have on anything anyways?



Maybe if you want to go back and re-evaluate your statements and say hey, this is what I'm doing and these are the results I'm getting it would come off a little different. Honey will generally catch more fly's than vinegar.

Lee is gone for what? A week now? And we've already found a replacement. Arrogant prick.

You guys wanna run your rigs at velocities and pressures above sammi specs. go for it, but don't try and convince everyone that it's acceptable. There have been a number of cases where guns have blown up and the cause was an overcharge of powder. Your justification that it hasn't happened to yo yet doesn't mean it won't. I've personally seen a bolt with cracked lugs from overloading. Luckily caught before somebody had a big accident.

/quote]

Sounds like you would be the firt guy to tell P.O. Ackley he did not know what he was doing. Ever wonder why gun makers have not chambered rifles in Ackley chambers? SAAMI is the answer to that question. I wonder how many hudreds of thousands of actions have an Ackley chamber on them, that shoot over SAAMI spec pressures for the parent cartridge.

No one knows of actions that have blown up with the exception of substitution of the wrong powder that I have first hand knowledge of.

You guys that do not like wild cats, I take it that the only reason that you visit the "Wild Cat" section on this board is argue with people?

I'd rather not waste time taking this any further. Frankly, I think you know you're running a risk if you go above 65K with the pressures. To ignore it or argue that "wildcatting" has somehow taught you to knowlegeably go past that limit is simply irresponsible. As I've said, it's up to you if ya wanna do it. Just don't advocate it for the younger less knowledgeable folks that might be reading this forum. Especially, when you espouse it in such as way as to suggest it's without risk.

I don't mind preachers as long as they keep their message confined to their own church.

You are right Keith we are wasting our time talking to a bunch of experts that know wildcats so well But yet they are afraid of them and they know for serton that we are running over 65,000 pressure with AI cartriges. I don't know about you but I use the same primers as these know it all's do and my primers don't flaten one bit. So I don't know they can explaine that do you? They also belive that all their spanking brand new load manuels are the holy Bible in reloading and even with the max loads being a long ways from max they are still to much of a coward to load one that hot. I really believe if every one had been like these guys we would for sure still be riding horses because none of them are smart enough to think of anything on their own they just wait in line for a blind man to come by and lead them through life you can tell that by the way they post stupid stuff that they have not took the time to get educated about what they are talking about. None of these boy's have a AI rifle of their own but they can sure tell you everything you want to know about it. What a joke! ! ! ! !
I'm sure GLAD we didn't go to the school these boy's did where you don't have to know or learn anything to finish it with flying colors. From what they are telling us I think we had better get some primers that are 2 times thicker so we won't know which shot is going to kill us.
SINCE MY 25-06AI IS SO DANGEROUS I THINK I WILL TRY AND SELL IT TO SOMEONE THAT IS NOT AS SMART AS THESE BOY'S ARE AND BUILD ME A 25-375 WEATHERBY MAG OR A 6MM/300 WIN MAG IT WILL NOT BE NEAR AS DANGEROUS FOR YOU AND I.
FROM WHAT I HAVE LEARNED HERE ON THIS TOPIC I WOULD REALLY BE AFRAID TO BUILD A 223AI NOW IT WILL BLOW UP IN YOUR FACE FOR SURE.
I GUESS AI STANDS FOR (APPROCH WITH IGNORANCE)
KEITH HOW IN THE WORLD COULD YOU AND I HAVE BEEN SO STUPID. I'M GOING BACK TO SHOOTING RABBITS WITH MY 416 RIGBY I KNOW IT'S SAFE

Sounds like you would be the firt guy to tell P.O. Ackley he did not know what he was doing. Ever wonder why gun makers have not chambered rifles in Ackley chambers? SAAMI is the answer to that question. I wonder how many hudreds of thousands of actions have an Ackley chamber on them, that shoot over SAAMI spec pressures for the parent cartridge.

SAAMI is the answer to that question.

NO THIS IS NOT THE ANSWER TO THAT.
GET EDUCATED WOULD YOU. YOU JUST KEEP SHOWING HOW MUCH YOU DON'T UNDERSATND ABOUT GUNS AND HOW THEY WORK.
LIKE I SAID BEFORE YOU CAN NOT LEARN WHEN YOUR MOUTH IS RUNNING FULL SPEED WITH YOUR BRAIN SETTING IN PARK

Ever run any of your loads in Quick Load to see the pressure you are running ?

Would be a good sanity check.....just saying it would shut up the nay-sayers.....

Tony

An education is a wonderful thing...

I got educated by shooting 100K+ rounds through various Wild Cats, not by reading.

Great job guys,way to derail a post about the .257 Weatherby

there is no way to shut up a deaf idiot. they just keep ratteling on in their own little world and have no idea what's around them I really do feel sorry for them they wil be that way for life too.

With your fine grasp of the English vernacular and spelling you come off as being very credible

But Keith you cheated you got the answers from outside the box
you must not have any common sense like these other experts do.
you need to stick you nose back in that loading bible and you will find where you went a stray. now straighten up your act and quit doing them stupid things like learning. the more you learn the more stupid you will get.I think I will get rid of all my guns I now have learned on this site how dangerous they are.

[/quote] With your fine grasp of the English vernacular and spelling you come off as being very credible [/quote]

I am that indeed and I also grasp the functions of a weapon way more than you will ever dream to understand and the rest of your negitive thinking buddies too.
I will guarantee that none of you will ever think up a new way of doing anything or heaven forbid invent anything your brains just are not capiable of doing that
kind of thing.
all of you don't do anything but set around looking for something you can say that won't work so you can show every one how smart you are.
But smart is not the word you are showing us. just a hint the word starts with dumb.

Wasn't there a movie "Lassie Go Home"? apropos...

Lassie, you've likely forgotten more than I ever will know regarding wildcatting. But just a word of the semi-wise, if you want to go on the attack, I'd suggest you dot I's and cross T's before calling others out for being dumb @sses....You've got the whole pot/kettle thing going on.

If you can help get rid of the numb nuts on here we can get back to talking about calibers like it was intented to be. Thats what some of us are here for.
I am the one responsable for all this BULL [bleep] only because I told the truth about what you can do with a 25-06ai caliber and a 87 grain bullet.
And it caused all of the dumbest ass holes on this site to come crawling out of the wood work from every where. Until now I would have never guessed there was so many dummys on a gun site that don't know the first thing about a rifle. BUT YET CLAIM TO BE AN EXPERT AT IT.
I sure hope I am never in the woods at the same time they are that could be very dangerous for any one. I just wonder did they take their safty course with the other kids and did they really pass it?

You know, I am pretty new to guns in general, and loading in particular. I know enough to know that I know very little. I read these forums looking to learn new things about these topics.

But I am NOT new to dealing with people, and when I see the kind of aggressive, verbally abusive, arrogant kind of demeanor that you are putting out there, LASSIE, I automatically disregard everything you're saying. It doesn't matter to me if you are 100% right, 50% right, or 100% wrong, you're being an arrogant jerk and that's enough to cause me to move on and seek knowledge elsewhere. Besides, I can't find anything in this or other threads that establishes anything about your "credentials" other than your belligerent and oft-repeated Very High Opinion of Yourself.

You've had people gently point out that more flies are caught with honey, yet you continue to barge ahead, shouting insults at anyone who questions you. You say that you're old and that makes you so much smarter than everyone else here, but you come off like a 20 year old who hasn't learned yet that he doesn't know everything about everything, and also as one who never paid very much attention in high school English classes.

It's possible that you have some good points to make, but you're sure not making them with me.

Well said Red Alder, it didn't take long for us to sort out that he's not a Dale grad did it...

Dober

Another " Rocket Surgeon"....




Ingwe

he has to be smarter than me because i havent understood a thing he has said yet

gene

Maybe I can help with that Gene..

It IS possible to get 3900fps out of an 87 grain .25-06...



IF and only IF you live on the moon with 1/6th the gravitational pull of the earth...and are completely in denial about the Law of Physics...



Ingwe

lassie,
as much as i hate to admit it, these guys are correct.
calm down, take a deep breath, and explain to them how and why, it's possible to achieve these numbers without being so aggressive.

i am not the greatest speller or user of 10 dollar words, but a more calm approach, will get most here to listen.
my now dead machinist friend, talked like he just moved out of the hills, but, he was able to work for nasa back in the day, making apollo rocket engines, and after retiring, was so anal about his work, it took a long time to get him finish a project. good enough, wasn't in his vocabulary, it had to be perfect.

so maybe there is a connection between you 2 ?
i dunno, but calm down, and explain to these guys, calmly, and see how much better it goes over.

and as for quick load... well, book loads have come out as being unsafe using it, so go figure ....

only testing and watching for pressure will tell ya for sure when it's not safe. every gun is unto itself. why ?? i guess if someone ever figures that one out, he'll be rich right quick...

why is one load fine in one gun, but not another ?

that's the question i'd like answered.

I'll never claim to be an expert but will garner that guns are like people and all are not the same nor created equal

Well said

I think that what gets Lassie's blood boiling is people professing to be experts on Wild Cat Cartridges when they have never built one (must less 20-30 over a 35 year period).

When you have no experience in having wild cat cartridges built, then DON'T TYPE IN THE WILD CAT SECTION.

It does not help to make crass comments, it just dimenishes this board.

The REALLY funny thing is that this post isn't/wasn't titled 257 Weatherby Wildcat.

The OP wanted to know about the 257 Roy and the WILDCATTERS made it about something else.

...and by the way, this is the Custom Rifles and Wildcat section, so not only about wildcats. Wanna talk about a wildcat start a thread.

If you sift gently through the rancor, the Wildcatters have some very good points....following is JMHO so take it for what it's worth and remember what you paid for it....

First'I'm no expert but suspect a lot of things,like a lot of the load work up in loading manuals is done in special pressure barrels that may deliberately be built somewhat "undersized", which means they are tighter,ie a 270 pressure barrel may mike .276 through the grooves,maybe more or less,but the point is that in working up loads for thier particular bullets Nosler, for example, or Hornady for another,want to be sure their data is "safe" in a wide variety of rifles whose barrels may be "tight",exactly to spec, or a bit "loose".

What I'm saying is that barrels vary in dimensions of bore and groove diameter;and bullets vary a great deal in hardness of jackets, material,diameter(mike a Partition sometime),length of bearing surface, etc.

All of these things can conspire in one direction or another to make manual data for a given cartridge not give precisely the same velocity/pressure ratio that the manual suggests.

Plus, these guys who wildcat usually do so with finely squared up actions, and super accurate custom barrels with special throating (because reamers vary a good bit, too). So they get a Lilja(say)that may be on the "tight" side....and mix it with bullet having a longer,full diameter, bearing surface,work up to manual "max",and discover that they are outrunning manual velocities but 100-200 fps....

Factor in what JB has said many times about precisely built,blueprinted actions and barrels that do not demonstrate high pressure signs in the same manner as a somewhat sloppier factory/barrel combination,and you can wind up with a situation where the rifle delivers higher than "normal" velocities at pressures that appear safe based on case life, primer pocket expansion, etc.

Conversely,we take another combination of bullet/barrel that may be "looser,or have a slicker bore(smooth,custom),that when mixed with a bullet that is a half thou undersized,and this combo may allow the use of loads that dramatically exceed the loads listed in the manuals as ""max";and may give more velocity in the process......

It is entirely possible to run into barrel/bullet/load combos that demnstrate excessive pressure yet do not deliver the velocity considered normal for the cartridge.

And always remember those finely built actions and barrels and their effect on the velocities and max loads....

None of this is meant to say that loads giving extra velocities are always above or below SAAMI pressure spec, because most of us do not have the equipment to precisely measure pressure of given loads.I mention this just to make us think and remember that rifle/bullets vary greatly in the way they interact,the velocity they deliver,and the pressures they generate.

I am not much of a wildcatter myself(although I am having one built right now) but the guy who builds and shoot these things routinely is almost always more likely to encounter these varied situations than those who stick pretty much to factory-built rifles and manual loads.

I think this is what Keith and others are trying to articulate and if they think I am wrong they can wang away at me too!LOL!

well said.
that is a great explanation why some loads are safe in some and not in others, and why some rifles achieve high velocities than others, and why some can take more powder and still show no signs of pressure and still be entirely safe.

thank you .

Careful about that part right there... JB has said numerous times that it may not show the typical signs, but that doesn't mean it's safe. (Which is the point I've been making for a while on this thread)

I think Bob summed it up well. I just hate to see people misinterpret the information when it hasn't been fully presented to suggest that it's safe to run loads that are very likely exceeding 65K without understanding the consequences.

Read about Layne Simpson's 7STW loads sometime. Perfectly fine with regard to all the "usual" indicators and running well over 70K pressures when finally tested.

After that you decide if ya wanna take the risk.

mtnman: Yes, of course...that is the unknown we all deal with in interpreting "traditional" pressure signs and it is hard to remember all this stuff in a post.....

I know all about individual rifles, different lots of components, et cetera. But there's an overarching principle of physics that applies no matter whose finely machined gun or jug of powder or brick of primers we're talking about.

Projectile velocity, and hence kinetic energy, is the manifestation of the work done by an expanding volume of gas. When you study physics you learn this work may be expressed mathematically as the integral of pressure with respect to differential volume.

The deal is if you're hooking a given chamber (257 Wby., 25-06 AI, whatever) to a given length of .257" rifled tube the volume part of the integral is fixed. So the only way to get more work out of it is to increase the height of the pressure function that's being integrated. This is the "area under the curve" thing that gets bandied about.

Ideally we would like to have the powder ignite and have the resulting gas pressure quickly rise to a high but safe level and hold there as long as possible. This would maximize the work done on the projectile. There are new propellants that are supposed to come closer to this ideal than the classics. But this argument has been going on since the classic powders were the only ones available.

Like I said earlier I acknowledge different rifles are different. But my assertion is these differences between rifles are more than likely not big enough to explain the large reported differences in performance without altering the integrand (pressure function) in the work integral in a significant way.

I believe if the rifles in question were properly instrumented to test for pressure the results would support my conjecture.

man it shore do sound purty when you say it...

I think with the cash you receive from your sales, you should perhaps invest some of your money in a one week, possibly two week course of simple english/grammar classes- It does a person good. . .

FMP

By the way- I love my .257!

FMP

Bob, that was a great post.

Some of you guys may want to go to the "Hunting Rifles" section and go down about half a page to the "264 Winchester" and read all the responses.

There are some very experienced guys there, and all of them are a fine example how good men discuss their experiences...what I'm used to.

I just read the 264 thread you mentioned Keith, and yeah it was a good one. But, if I mentioned what I had for results in my 25" .270 you think it'd remain as civil...

Hey these threads are fun and they're supposed to be that way. By and large we have a really fine group here on the Fire. From time to time they get a bit off course either by hijacking and or someone having a bit of a "tude". But by and large they're fun. (and I know I can be one of the aids in getting threads off course, but I generally try to be civil)

While I've only been loading for rifles for about 39 years and don't have a total wealth of knowledge I do have a bit. And a goodly share (last 22 years or so)of that has been with the "catz" as I've never quite been able to do things like others. I've seen a lot of different rounds (including several 240 PSP barrels which is mucho like a 6AI), I've seen a lot of different barrels and I've seen that a lot of people go about it very differently. Some take a relatively sensible approach to what they're doing, and by nature of the wildcatter some just can't help themselves and hot rod the heck out of them.

I know this cause I was once one of them. I'd push em to the edge and thensome. Not real smart on my part, bout the only thing I ever did that was smart was to keep my mouth shut and not tell people about some of the crazy stuff I was doing.

And yeah I've worn out my share of barrels, 8 alone on one rifle and the #'s will escalate to about 3x that if I counted all including the ones I didn't run from start to finish.

Guess my point is it's fun to talk about this ballistic gack (when we can't be on the hill hunting), and it's especially fun to do so in a civil manner.

But, when people come on here and start talking about some crazy kinds of #'s people from the Fire are and will take note and call em on it. It's pretty easy to fool those that ride the pine but those that are in the game is another story. So, if someone comes in full of P&V telling us about a 25/06AI @ 3920 and a 6AI @ 4100 something people will notice and say something.

Now people could come back in a civil manner and offer to cuss and discuss it, but by reacting with insults name calling and other acts of poor behavior it gets a bit old...

Lastly, I will say that I am a believer in there being fast and slow barrels. But, some of the #'s being tossed about have a very high probablility of being attained by clocks giving poor readings, perhaps some really fast tubes that are being redlined and of course toss in a bit of male machismo and viola you have some nutso #'s.

As for the person who choose to act like your basic 6 year old I'd be more than welcome to meeting him at the range some hot August night and seeing how his rigs run. I'll be the one bringing the hammer and the one stepping off a bit while he drops the hammer...

And someone also mentioned the idea of running some of the data thru quick load, that'd be kind of an interesting idea. I had MtMarine help me while back with my 338 WSM and some of the loads I was running he said looked kool and some he said you might wanna back off a bit. Not a perfect solution I know but it wouldn't hurt to run them just the same.

Dober (aka dummer as Lassie renamed me... :o)

On a friendlier note, if anyone is looking for some reasonably priced .257 ammo Midway has some 100g SP in stock for 33.50 a box. Not bad considering the same brass costs 32.00 and change for 20 empty brass.

I was sent a notification yesterday evening, but wasn't able to order it on the site. When I called and asked they said it was there and I was able to do it on the phone.

Good post Mark, I have seen some guys do some things that are spectacular in terms of speed with accuracy.

Containing pressure is the case, I had samples of various Brands of brass Rockwell tested, which was a real eye opener. There was a 13% difference in spread between the softest and hardest brands of brass, and a 12 % spread in Hardness in the same lot number of the same brand of brass. Really makes for an eyeopener on reading pressure signs.

I think that the guys that have designed Rem actions have made one whale of a strong action, as proved over the years. I don't think that you or I will live long enough to have one of our actions blow up from metal fatigue.

I have serious misgivings about running hot rod loads through A- Bolts and Ruger 77's, and I have put custom barrels with minimum spec match chambers on these actions, getting spectacular velocity and accuracy, these were not high volume shooters.

Putting wild cats that are stomping on 60,000-65,000 constantly on a falliing block action or a Break open action of any kind is asking for all kinds problems, and I don't think that it is prudent for anyone to do it. I had a friend put a 257 Weatherby on a break open, stretched the frame at the hinge pin creating excessive headspace.

What gets me on this board more than anyother board is the amount of Heckling that goes on. Most board have moderators that nip Heckling in the bud, this board does not...it is really sickening.

Interesting thread. There is another way to get those kinds of velocities. When the LED screen starts to go it can be difficult to see the difference between a 9 and an 8 and maybe a 6 or a 0.

Dober/Keith/Mathman: Great posts and well said!.....Sanity restored!LOL!

4 now....

Dober

Mark, I'd love to hear about the results you got with your 270, and I bet a lot of others would also.

he doesn't want to get jumped on....

I would think that he would be more prone to protecting some newbie from siezing up the bolt on his action.

Getting jumped on isn't a big thing to me, when I do something stupido I kind of expect it, years of playing ball in high school and college taught me that..

Dober

Keith-my long barreled 270 was a Lilja #2 cut to 25". I ran top end "book loads" and got the following speeds.

130/135's=3200 to 3300 (lot of powder depending)
140's= 3050-3100 (lot of powder depending)
150's= 3K and a bit more (lot of powder depending)

I pretty much used R22 for all this work and most of this work with the long tube was done back in 2003-2005. I generally ran 59/22 with the 130's, 58 with the 140's and 57 with the 150's if I recall right.

Shortly after that I cut the tube to 23" (didn't like the long feel on a mtn rifle and it wouldn't fit my scabbard @ 25") and I also began to adopt the idea of once I find out what top end speed is for a rig I then drop off 100 fps and hunt/shoot/practice with it.

I run dotz on my hunting rigs so for me it just doesn't matter if I am at this or that speed as I can set them up to hit to 500 real easily at about any speed.

Make no doubt about it I've spent my time in the red zone, I've popped my share of primers and I've had cases primer pockets loosen up way too early. I like to think that since then I've learned a bit and go about it just a bit easier. 4 the most part...

Shoot straight!

Dober

And if I recall right JB ran a 26" tubed 270 about the same time and while we've not comped notes it seems to me that he was in the same ballpark in terms of speed.

So bring on the flames boys....grin

Dober

i feel as you do..
it's only the internet as well !

Amen to that! U ever sort out a buff hunt?

I'm for thinking that'd be a good way to honor your friend by using his big 33 to roast one of those buggers. Plus if you did it here I'd drive out to watch. And then we could hit the Madison with some dry's for the afternoon.

Dober

oh....
it would bring back memories.
used to fish below the dam, up near great falls,,,, cascade iirc....


also, works been REAL slow, so it's not in the cards..er.. i mean wallet just yet...

spending more time at home due to the mud and snow, than doing any kind of work...

looking for a new job now, might haul gasoline if i can get hired on.
tired of the oil field, getting too old.
put an app., in yesterday with western refining down here. we'll see.
starting to starve, so gotta look since no work is going on...

I hear you there, I work in real estate and while I've not missed any meals I am a bit skinnier.

The area you're talking about I lived next to for 15 years and fished it a lot. Now I live back in Boze and love the fishing over here just as much. Life is good on a nice summer night hitting a good hatch.

Dober

Dober: Seems like 25" 270's kick up their heels....Fred Barker had a great article on the 270 in Precision Shooter IIRC, with powders like MRP II,and RL 25 in the 270....he was getting your velocities from a 25" PacNor on an FN Mauser..

I've posted this before,but the Barnes listed max load of RL 25 with the Barnes 130 XLC did 3200 from my 22" M70 Classic FW.

Most of us(me included) get in a rut with powders in the 270...it can benefit from slower burners than the H4831 range.

Mark, that is some great info for sure. Sure is an eye opener as to the possibilities....especially out of a Non Magnum.

I remember that I had a friend put together a 270 with a 29" Hart Barrel for shooting Rock chucks and long range jack Rabbits.
I believe that he was shooting the 90g Sierra Hp in the ~3750 fps range. This 270 was brutal wicked on chucks and vaporized jack rabbits.

No doubt the common sense custom 270 with the long barrel would make a lot of folks scratch their heads.

Thanks for sharing

here is the opinion about all you smart asses from the other gun sites on the web.
------------------------------------------------
My accurate .257Wby load is a 100gr Sierra at 4010. Your 25-06AI is doing very well and I've no doubts that it really does that. But you wouldn't believe how many people just don't get it.....that when things all work together, performance is way above what the loading manuals say. Over on 24hr campfire forum there's a dust-up over .257Wby and 25-06AI performance, pressure, etc.

More ignorance on that board than you could imagine.

Post your numbers over there and see what I mean.
So just keep spreading your ignorance every where the truth is out now about all of you. So now you can see why people that really knows what they are talking about don't come here to this site. to much stupity here ! ! ! I made a big mistake thinking you all know about guns too

Not to worry. I don't take firearms/reloading advice from people who can't construct a sentence without embarrassing themselves.

LASSIE..........




Ingwe

LMAO... You're incorrigible.

ASSIE......do you really think anyone here gives two [bleep] what other people on other boards think......Why post here if the place is full of dolts and you've got another board that shares your rational? Cause little boy blue likes to blow his own horn. Some of your supporters tried to bring some civility back to the thread but you came and crapped a fat turd on it again....

It's faster than the 250 Savage but not as fast as the 220 Swift, fantasy handloading to the contrary...