Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunting Rifles 6.5X55 or 257 Roberts

dmsbandit,

Ramshot's manual lists 2900 from a 117 bullet at only 56,500 psi. Alliant's manual from 2005 lists 2945 from a 120 at 48,000 psi. Barnes No. 4 lists a 115 at 2907, pressure not given--but even +P .257 data is significatly less than rounds like the .270 Winchester.

What do you define as a "HUNTING" bullet?

I have a friend in Arizona whose kids use the .250 Savage on cow elk. They have killed a dozen, mostly with one shot each, and never recovered a bullet. The bullet used is the 100-grain Nosler Partition.

With the same bullet from a .257 Roberts, I once inadvertently hit a big pronghorn at 300 yards in the right hip (he swapped ends just as I shot). He collapsed right there, and we found the bullet in the left shoulder.

Another friend here in Montana shot a big cow elk in the bones of the left shoulder with a 115-grain Nosler Partition from a .257 Roberts. The bullet was recovered under the hide on the far side.

My wife and I have killed a number of big deer (200-250 pounds live weight) with 100-grain Barnes TSX and 115-grain Nosler Partitions, and only recovered one bullet. That came from the biggest whitetail I've ever taken, what you would call an 11-pointer that weighed over 200 pounds. He was quartering strongly toward me, and the bullet hit the big shoulder joint. He dropped right there and never moved, and I found the bullet under the hide on the far side a few inches behind the rib cage.

How many big game animals have you seen shot with a .257 Roberts where a HUNTING bullet failed to penetrate sufficiently?

Hell I consider the 250AI my BIG gun to bring along in conjunction with the 223AI.

For deer and smaller, I'd go with the 257Roberts, hands down!

Here's what mine did with lighter bullets.



...... and heavier ones!


.

Mule Deer,
I specified hunting bullets because I know there are many more high BC match for the 6.5 than the 257 and I wanted to compare apples to apples.

The books I referenced for the 'bob velocities are the following.

Ken Water's Pet loads. Top velocity measured was:
115 Nosler -2865fps
117 Sierra -2811
120 Nosler -2747
120 Hornady -2803
120 Speer SP -2680

Speer #14 +P loads
115 TBBC SP-2873fps
120 SPBT,SP, GS - 2793

Lyman #49 +P Sierra 117gr 2729 fps [AA4350]

Sierra edition#4 117gr SBT 2800fps
117gr SBT 2900fps [257 Ackley]

Hornady #7 +P loads
117gr -2900fps
120gr -2800fps


Lee Modern reloading
117gr -2736fps
120gr -2800fps
125gr -2681fps

Speer#12 +P
120gr -2793fps

Nosler #4
115gr -2827fps
120gr -2810fps

Hodgdon #25
IMR powder -117/120gr -2757fps
hodgdon -117/120gr -2777fps
winchester -117/120gr -2718fps
Alliante/hercules -117/120gr -2817fps

Barnes #3 115gr XFB -2896fps

If you are reaching the velocities as you stated, then you must have a "fast" barrel, or a longer barrel than is commonly seen with the 'bob. Most of the listed velocities are with 22-24" barrels in the manuals I have.

I have one of each, but I don't consider myself to be "real smart". Both cartridges just work.

.

will (3)100gr Nosler BTs do for chucks?




How about these 140s for deer to moose?

dmsbandit,

This discussion started with a post from somebody who wanted a deer rifle for moderate ranges, and a varmint rifle for longer ranges. The high-BC bullets I mentioned were to illustrate the .257's potential for ultra-range varmint shooting--though the 115 Ballistic Tip and Berger VLD's are also excellent deer bullets. I have also seen a pile of big game shot with both of those as well, though I would tend to use those for open-country shooting rather than timber hunting, where I'd prefer a Nosler Partition or Barnes TSX.

Let me address the sources you pick for loading data one at a a time:

Ken Waters' standard method for working up loads is to measure the case-head expansion of factory ammo, then work up his loads until the case-head expansion is the same as for factories. His data is therefore always going to be about like factory ammo, and the .257 has always been notoriously underloaded by the factories.

Speer generally works up their load data in a pressure barrel, then shoots it for velocity in a factory rifle, in the case of the .257 a Ruger 77. Factory rifle almost always have "looser" barrels than pressure barrels, therefore develop less pressure--and velocity. Factory rifles also vary considerably, the reason that in one recent Speer manual the .308 Winchester was shown as getting higher velocities than the .30-06.

The Lyman, Hodgdon, Sierra, Winchester and "Alliant/Hercules" manuals you cite all use older, very low pressure limits for their .257 data. There is no reason to stick to these limits (around 45,000 CUP or 50,000 psi) in modern rifles. The Lee manual just gets its data from other manuals. It also appears to be lower-pressure data.

The Nosler manual's data is +P, but for some reason they didn't try any of the best powders for heavy bullets in their 115-grain data, such as RL-19, RL-22 and Ramshot Magnum. They did try RL-19 with their 110-grain bullet and got 2940 fps.

The Barnes manual you cite is out of date. The old-style X-Bullet produced high pressures, but the latest Triple-Shock bullet (with a grooved shank) produces pressures very similar to other bullets, so higher velocities can easily be attained.

The Hornady +P data list 2900 fps with a 117-grain. Higher velocities would be safely possible with a 115, both because of the lighter bullet, and because Hornady (like Sierra) rounds off their data to the nearest 100 fps, rather than listing the actual highest velocity.

The sources I listed feature much better powders for the purpose, but even then +P data for the .257 is limited to lower pressures than for cartridges like the .270 Winchester.

The only reasons the "accepted" pressure is lower for the .257 are tradition, plus a very few really old rifles. In a modern rifle there is no earthly reason that the .257 can't be pushed to 60,000 psi. This is the level I load my .257 ammo to, and it works just fine. It is VERY easy to get 2900 fps with 115-grain bullets in the .257 even from a 22" barrel, and in a 24" barrel right around 3000 fps is also easy--with the right powders.

No, none of the dozen or more .257 Roberts rifles I've loaded for have had "fast" barrels. I've just used the best modern powders and loaded .257 ammo to the same pressure levels as other cartridges, such as the .260 Remington, .270 Winchester, etc. If we loaded the 6.5x55 to standard SAAMI pressures it would likewise show low velocities.

Not at all,and this is a common misconception when it comes to the Roberts..

My experience with the cartridge goes back to the 70's and I have had several;firnds have added to the mix with a few others.My notes from that far back are long gone,but some I remember were a pre 64M70 with 24" barrel,a Ruger M77 with 22" barrel, a custom Mauser with 24" barrel,and my old FW PF with 22" tube.

All these rifles would variously give 3050 to 3200 with a 100 gr bullet,2900-2950 with 120's,and 3000-3050 with the 115 gr from these 22"-24" tubes.FWIW,87's could be easily loaded in excess of 3300.

The Roberts is one of those cartridges (like the 7x57 and 280 Remington), whose velocities can be improved by judicious handloading,and due to the fact that factory and manual velocities were held to low levels,and for no good apparent reason since it was always chambered in good strong bolt actions...whatever...I suspect it dates back to the early origins of the Roberts,and the fact that the crummy bullets available back then shot better at more sedate velocities,and maybe concerns about the M96 Mausers and other surplus actions that got chambered for the cartridges,as they were perceived to be "weaker" actions.

Fact of the matter is that the above velocities are easily attained with modern powders in bolt action rifles and 22-24" barrels.That old FW I had gave right at 3200 with the 100 gr Nosler Partition, and consistently showed 2950 with the 120.I used that rifle with the 100 gr Partition to take my largest pronghorn at close to 400 yards.

I'll also note that case life was always good with these heavier loads;no primer popping or other difficulties ever encountered.

I never used the 115 very much but that Ruger(which belonged to the wife of a friend),gave 3000-3050 with the 115 Partition and she used it on black bear, mule deer,and pronghorn antelope.Barrel was a 22" factory job.

If these velocities seem eerily close to what a 25/06 delivers from factory ammo,that's because they are.....one of the reasons I never bothered a whole lot with the 25/06...there was just never much need.The two cartridges seemed so much alike in the field I could not really distinguish between them.

My present Roberts,a fine custom on a pre war M70 action, gives a sedate 3000 fps with the 100 gr bullets and I will leave well enough alone....I know what a 100 gr Partition is capable of at that velocity level.That said the manual loads are interesting but can be improved upon pretty easily without blowing yourself into DNA...or even coming close for that matter.

AMEN!

LMAO...

What about the 7x57 numbers, just to be fair ?

My theory was that he runs his Bob from a standard length mag, allowing more powder capacity to seat the bullets shallower into the case.

(sorry JB, I just couldn't resist!)

luvsomeshootin' somebody said what needed to be said a long while back on this thread: buy one of each!

Now go back and look at only opinions of those you really trust. The choice will be obvious.

Somebody needs to the address the larger frontal area of the 6.5X55...0.000380132 square feet versus 0.000360241 square feet for the Bob... translates into larger blood trails, more visual effect of bullet impact. (The above numers were rounded to the nearest billionth of a square foot)

Only a cynical person would make a statement like that.

LOL!


I guess what all this shows is that the two cartridges are pretty close,and not to split hairs,but a guy might pick the Roberts if the focus is varmints and deer;and if he mixes elk-sized stuff into the mix those heavier 6.5 bullets may come in handy.Pretty hard to go wrong either way......

BobinNH - my calculator's busted. Just how many decimal places is that? LOL Regards, Homesteader.

I don't know, I guess I give up. If 5 of the manuals [(2) Speer, Hornady, Lyman, Nosler,]I listed use +P data and they don't give the velocities others have claimed, and the 257 AI data doesn't give the velocities stated for the standard 'bob then something is funky somewhere.

Nice Post Bob! What else can be added? Game cleanly taken to 400 yards, black bear no problem, deer no problem...in a light recoiling, low report and increasingly popular classic round based on one of the best cartridges ever designed the 7 x 57.

Dude its real simple for me. Put 47 grains of H4350 behind a 100 grain bullet and let fly. Zero signs of pressure, reload the same cases probably on their 5th or 6th reloading.

Main Entry: cyn�i�cal
Pronunciation: \ˈsi-ni-kəl\
Function: adjective
Date: 1542
1 : captious, peevish
2 : having or showing the attitude or temper of a cynic: as a : contemptuously distrustful of human nature and motives <those cynical men who say that democracy cannot be honest and efficient � F. D. Roosevelt> b : based on or reflecting a belief that human conduct is motivated primarily by self-interest <a cynical ploy to cheat customers>
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Negative. I trust completely that the posters believe what they write. Some are credible, some not so much.

Ref: 6.5mm Swede or the .257 "Bob". Guess the best answer to this question (which one is better - in case that got lost in the sauce)is to set their safety's on "decimal point" instead
of "fire". I like them both and the "Bob" is on my wish list disguised as a Ruger M77HE in blued chrome moly and walnut. Regards, Homesteader.