Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunting Optics Dear Leupold

no one,

I've been here for the whole show. Suffice it to say I see things differently than you.

Calvin,

That kinda hurts because you have made so many well thought out common sense posts.

Any ways I know you are a good guy and I will try and win you over. No BS but not many I would say that about.

Damn!!

i would love them all to get together and shoot it out and quit typing it out

John;

That's a red herring, and you know it.

If your product does what you say it does, it ought to be able to stand up against whatever Larry or Matt or anyone else has as far as being tested/evaluated by a neutral 3rd party, because to that 3rd party, ALL of the systems are "turn key".

If Larry sends, for example, a stock Remington Ti 7-08 with a 6x42 and M1s, with the drop chart taped to the stock and the loads for the rifle to John Doe for the test, it's just as much of a "turn key" system for John Doe as one of your Greybull systems that'd you'd send or a GAP rig that Matt would send.

That much, is obvious, IMHO, to everyone.

That was a common sense post. I've seen Big Stick shoot personally. You'd have to bring your A+ game to beat out his factory Ti.

A "independent" third party proves nothing, and just gives another opinion with no facts.

Each player brings his own rifle with his own shooting ability.
Pretty simple.
Either back up what you say or shut up.

I think an independent eval is the only way.
The question at hand isn't about who's the best shooter it's about which rifle system is the most capable.

So how many who've posted on this thread would be be willing to kick in $20 (or whatever) to put together this shootin' match?

John ...

we've been around that block before, and that's not the point. You offer a rifle that's ready to be shot, period. As long as Stick, or whomever it may be, sends a rifle and ammo that's ready to be shot with no other work by the shooter than putting one in the chamber and going, then it's as "turn key" as yours ... what you may or may not offer your customer after the sale is a completely separate issue, and you know this.

I've said it before ... I'm sure you can shoot ... and I'm quite sure your rifles are sound, reliable and shoot very well. I don't even have an issue with your price point, as I don't want someone telling me what I can charge for my goods and services.

Where I take exception to your claims and assertions, is when you say that your rifle will "out perform" any other long range hunting rifle out there.

If you want to qualify that by saying "out perform any other turn key system offered by a commercial dealer", that changes the equation because you may very well be one of the few, if not the only one, that offers that. Further, by insisting that your rifle only be compared to another as such, is effectively trying to disqualify any other rifles from the equation, thereby making yours the "winner by default".

If you really want to prove something about the simple performance of your system, it shouldn't matter at all who put it together, who did the load workup, etc... it should only matter that someone else is pitting a completed system against yours ...

IIRC, I am the one that originally came up with the idea of having an impartial, qualified third party shoot your rifle against someone else's to see if it could perform as well or better than yours - based on your claims of performance.

I still would be willing to send my factory Remington "VS" .243win bbl'd action simply bolted into a PSS stock (no glass bedding) ... topped with a 3.5-10x40 Leupold w/ M1 elevation turret in Talley Lightweights ... shooting the 105 Amax ... and have a third party shoot it against your "custom" that will "out perform" anything out there...

that is, unless you want to continue to insist on it being "turn key" by your definition ... which of course, disqualifies basically any other rifle out there, making you the winner by default.

i'd send 20$ to watch it live

Im in.

I'd nominate JB as the evaluator although I believe he is far too savvy to accept such a task.

I'm in.

Apparently you do.

I guess I am missing something, why are a few so against John B and his rifles? They are not what I would want and I think everybody knows you can build one for less money, but if he can sell them and make a living doing what he loves without hurting you in any way why not let it be?

I'm willin'!

another possible third party would be Montana Marine (Shane), if he would agree to it, of course. He can shoot as well as anyone, and at very long range ... he's always been very honest in his evaluations of everything, and has no dog in this fight in any way...

No doubt that would solve the question of who's the better shooter.

But, the 3rd party could easily assess which system performs better, and if there were a couple/three evaluators, that'd carry more weight. It'd remove the shooter element of it and concentrate it on the rifles themselves.

Which has been and remains a central point of contention.

To the shooter(s), all the rifles would be just as foreign and just as "turn key system" as the others, because they'd all show up sighted in, load developed, drop charted, and ready to go.

Get the right evaluator(s) whose word is accepted and trusted, and who is/are KNOWN to know their schit, and it'd answer quite a few questions.

Though, yes, I'd still like to see the bunch go head-to-head.

Asking someone to fly a few thousand miles, during hunting season on vacation time to settle an internet dispute? Come on guys... Be realistic. Are we going to be seeing gold coins soon?

Well spoken Sako75 and KCBighorn.

We are at a crossroads here and nothing but a trip to the range will settle this matter. Though I don't know or particularly care about any of the participants in question, I will say that only John seems to be willing to step up to the line and fling some. Everything else is just hot air now.


Count me in for $20 John, as previously mentioned.

I also think I'll put another $20 on John if for no other reason that he seems to be the only one willing to shoot it out...which says a lot more than all of the empty rhetoric on this thread.