Christmas is coming and I am putting in my order now.

I want these two items to show up on shelves.

3x scope

8x42 scope that is the same length and weight as a 6x42.

Thanks

SU,

Curious what you think the 8x42 will do for you that the 6x42 won't?

Silly question..... every one knows with the 8x you are two times closer and being closer means its closer to your target.

Let men talk.. shoo.

Must be that new math I'm hearing about

Dear Leupold,

I want you to offer ANY Silver Finish Scope with a Heavy Duplex or German #4.....particularly the 6x42 or 2.5-8.

Thank you.

I've seen 7.5x42 M8's on eBay.

They could bring that back with FX-II lens/coating pretty easy I figure.

I'd like the MK4 6x40 reintroduced in M1.............

The same thing a 6x42 will do that the 4x won't.


Up on the hill, I hunt more open country and find myself with my variable on 8x 90% of the time. I've killed more game at that setting as well. It also is right on the edge for offhand shooting. I also feel very confident using higher X's in the thicker timber if I have to, especially with a fixed.

In a fixed power, eye relief and clarity should be very good.

I hear good things about the 10x MK4...........

Yeah, very true! It's a good one.

For my likes, 8X gives me a little more leeway for offhand shooting.

Never gunned a dedicated straight 8x,so cain't say. Have gunned it a bajillion times aboard variables and such things lead me back to a straight 6x.

A bulletproof 6x in Mk4 M1 configuration would be rather sweet and adept,if my M3 version is any inkling.

SPR reticle would be nice too...........

For an M1 I prefer the 30mm tube but the extra weight might hold me back.

Have not run an SPR but looks like something i need to look into.

950 meters......i like that.

SPR for wind,not ele.

Not a Utility glass,but more of a [bleep] & Giggles glass...........

I C,

Here's a 7.5x42 riding a Ti 6.5x284 mountain rifle.

I figure a new FX 8x42 the same size as a 6x42 would fit a niche.

Note the great eye-relief latitude,inherent the 6x.

Hint..............

It's there and I like that.

The 7.5 is right there as well and can't see any reason why the 8x could not.

Roger that. I'm sure I'd grab one or two to see. I picked up a fixed 10x that I put on the kids rifle for target practice. Pretty nice scope, but I doubt it'll get much mountain time.

A 6x will ride thusly,which a 7.5x will not...............

My wife has a couple of the older 8x36 Leupolds, without AO, that are just a little longer than the 6x36. She likes them a lot, but then again she actually prefers a little more magnification, and would gladly use a fixed 10x40 if Leupold made. Most of the time she compromises by running a 3.5-10x40 and just leaving it on 10x--but if they made a light 10x fixed she would buy one in a heartbeat.

She took one look at the 10x Mk4 on my 6.5-06 and said, "That looks too heavy!"

I'm no great fan of the 1" fixed 12x or 16x,but do bang around a couple/few 30mm M1 10x's(and 16x).

10x will paintcha into many corners,that a 6x40/42 cain't...................

a fixed 8x scope has to be about the most worthless scope I could ever imagine. its too low powered to be a good range or varmint scope and its too much for a hunting scope,

fixed power scopes are for old geezers who somehow still think a fixed scope is more reliable, variables have been for all practical purposes just as reliable since the 80's some 30 odd years or more.

a fixed 10x or 12x would have some value for a range scope but thats about it. if you like a 6x scope or a 3x 6x or whatever x, just buy a 3x9 in a zeiss or leupold, turn the power down you you will have a nice bright scope with a good FOV or turn it up and shoot targets at the range. there isn't a thing a fixed power scope can do that a todays variable cannot do alot better.

...uh ohhhh...now you dunnit!

Run a quality fixed scope and variable side by side for comparison, AND test it out in actual field conditions, and I'll wager a change of your stance/opinion will likely surprise you.

Curious as to why anyone would buy a fixed power scope?

Fixed-power scopes are lighter, simpler to assemble (less to screw up during and after assembly) and easier to use. I think people who are marginal hunters/beginning hunters don't need a power ring, an AO or side-parallax distracting them. They just need to concentrate on acquiring the target and pulling the trigger when they have the crosshairs/reticle settled.

Weaver is now making an 8x56mm

zzzzzzzzzz

In my wife's case, she had several variable scopes break on various hunts over a pretty short period. All were well-known brands and none were cheap.

Since she likes more X's than most people, she has started trying the fixed 8's. This was not done because she is inexperienced. In fact I would be willing to bet she's taken more big game than the average male Campfire member.

I have gone to fixed scopes on almost all my big game rifles for the same reason.

John,

I�m sorry if I impugned you or your lovely bride. It was not intentional. I know that both of you prefer fixed power scopes. I was just pointing out a couple of the benefits of using a fixed power scope. I certainly would not classify you or your wife as marginal or beginning hunters.

Prime lenses are at a series of advantages,all of which are beyond your comprehension. That is a constant,whether it binos,spotters,scopes or camera lenses(in fairness I do shoot the 70-200L f/2.8 II) a bit.

Anywhoo...MUCH humored that 8x takes you outta the game(several puns intended),yet a magical increase to 9x,suddenly throws open windows of opportunity.

I always get a giggle outta them that don't shoot,feigning that they do! You're on a roll..................

Magnumdood,

Never thought you did. Please note my reply is addressed to Swampdip....

I understand the rationale but I am going to haul the Kimber 308 into my Minnesota woods treestand this weekend. The same rifle may go out on a cow elk hunt out west. Give me an argument against still liking variable scopes. I will be at 2.5 power this weekend and 8 power in New Mexico next month.

Of course I could get two Montana 308's - you know, "one for the wife". Then I could get two fixed scopes for them..... ah loonyism at its finest.

I could hand you your ass with a 6x42 affixed same...at any distance that you liked.

I'd stoop so low as to making it look easy too,becase it is............

Well I see it didn't take long for this topic to get into the gutter. Nice touch!

Facts is facts..............

John,

I wasn't sure, because, I was the one that mentioned marginal/beginning hunters, not he.

Don't think I even saw your post before I posted--which happens here sometimes!

My guess is that Eileen has even taken more animals than the legendary Swampy!

I think I could like a fixed 8x on an open-country rifle, like maybe a .300 Win, but then a 6x36 or 6x42 would probably work too. One advantage, fixed have always seemed noticeably clearer to my eyes than a similar variable.

Maybe she drives a faster golf cart..

I've got a fixed 8X Leupold with AO on my 77-17 HMR.

This is an ideal scope for ME, for sage rat hunting with this gun.

8X works great for shots up to 200 yards on these little targets.

Virgil B.

I would love to see Leupold come out with a 3-12x50 VX3LR with a duplex reticle somewhere halfway between their std duplex and their heavy duplex

Even though mine are all variables I alway seem to shoot on 4 power.

you didn't read clearly what I was saying, what I said was with a 3x9 you can leave the scope set on 3x to get off a quick shot, by having 3x I shoot with both eyes open and am on my target instantly, a fixed 6x might take a split second longer, less apparent cross hair movement on target with the variable and 3x means I am less app to try and get the cross hairs to jiggle in the right spot and YANK the trigger which means I miss darn near everytime. if I have plenty of time and a really stable rest I can crank to 9x and take a shot to pretty much as far as my rifle will reach. a fixed power scope gives me one or the other of these advantages, getting of a quick shot with fast target aquirement or higher power with a steady rest long range, NOT BOTH

I have never owned a scope that failed because it was a variable, any failures I have had could have very well happened to a fixed power scope.

I did/do understand fully,thus the spot on reply.

Which of course stands,though your reiteration wasn't necessary and a "delete" would serve you much better.

Hint..............

Only a inexperienced novice taking wild guesses would post something like this. It's obvious you don't have to much trigger yanking time.

WTF...now you too,in the bidness of stealing thunder?!!?

You boys gotta work on not setting the hook soooooooooo early.............(grin)

LOL!

Sorry, but that has to be the dumbest post I've read here for quite awhile.

You gotta work on your technique,or you'll scare 'em plum outta the country on the first pitch.

EASE into it,keep the bait fresh and let 'em chew a spell...................

I never said I was a fisherman. I just yank the trigger quick as I can.....

Man, you are corrupting me!

Snagging is fun...but spooks a hole quickly.

I'm all about results and lots of 'em................

if I didn't get excited because of the heat of the moment maybe I should stop hunting, its easy to get a nice squeeze on the trigger when you are shooting paper, no so in field conditions always, if you don't know this SU maybe you don't know yank from yanknola

See how long it took the hole to simmer down?!!?..............

Yeah this is why I have managed to trash multiple variables since the 80's.....Pure internet rubbish......if you have never busted up a variable, it's a tacit admission that you simply have not done very much shooting.

You got real guys like SU and Larry on here using fixed;not to mention what JB has written so many times about fixed vs variable......and you still don't get it.......

Reminds of a lad I knew that continued on endlessly about how stupid turrets were, even though he never ran them. The story does have a happy ending as he finally took the leap.

haha!

Who might that be? Laffin'

First of all, I have no clue of what you are talking about.


"Excited" "Heat of the moment" "Yanknola" ????? what the?

Dear Leupold, make the 4x33 the same length as the 6x36. Not everyone has a short action.

Dear fairy God mother, please gift me with a Leupold 2.5-8 VX 3 that is 3/4" longer than the current available model.

Ps, if you can see your way clear to provide such a marvel that would fit on a standard length Mauser or Brno (without the need for sucky extended bases), I will set you up for a hot date with Santa.....and if you are really nice, the easter bunny as well!

No one - how about the 3.5-10?

Swampman, I'd be curious why I'd buy a new Remington after I had a bolt handle fall off, an no it never was beaten on.

To naysayers of fixed powers... have you used them? On hunts?

I have used 2.5s, 3s, 4s, 6s, 7.5x, 8x, 10x, 12x, 24x. Never liked the last one - poor eye box and ONLY good for paper, optics older model M8 left me wanting.

The 7.5x DID give me an optical advantage (vs. a 6x, more power useful on smaller game I used it on; and it did go to the service for a check up, and they replaced the front obj. w/one that had a different color/coating, perhaps from the latest 6x42 at the time w/multi coating), if you have NEVER used one, you would not understand. It was on a L579 Forester in 243, was my FAV set up for that rifle, shot many varmints. Read awhile back a poster who PREFERRED 8x fixed on yotes out west, inc. running shots. MY experience testing an 8x36 next to a pre-VX3 2.5-8x36 AND an M8 6x42, the 8x w/36 obj. - non ao, gave the BEST view and optical resolution of the three.

Fewer lens has it's advantages. The 7.5x (43 IIRC to be exact) was for ME a VERY good power/scope for field use. SIMPLE yet always effective, and VERY bright, great eye box/ER and FOV.

Now the 10x I had, an M8, it was lacking for me, just never liked the view as much as the 7.5, OR a 12x40 M8 AO, an older 'purple' scope, that had a CPC installed by Premier. THAT 12x was MUCH better in the field, always ample power, AND the reticle was fine enough for varmints at all ranges I could shoot. The 10x lacked a tad for the smaller varmints that it and the 12x were used on atop a 223 700 VLS I had chopped to 22.5" and put in a lighter ADL stock.

Of all the M8s, the 10x and 24x gets a 'thumbs down' but admit peering thru the HIGH end MK4s in 10x40, that's a much better scope, but it has a very specific application, and not what I need in the field.

SO there's my take, but no doubt, Big Stick, the 6x42 is a fine hunting scope, often under rated/appreciated by those who never spent any time afield. Quality 4 and 6x have served me very well on game.

IF Leupold brings back a 7.5 or 8x, on a 42 or 43 Obj, I will probably get at least one, and have a CDS or M1 installed. The 36 version I had, did have a PA setting of 300 yds, that left me a tad unhappy that performance at closer ranges i.e. 50-100 or so yds was sub par due to parallax, but IF Leupold brings out a non ao, I HOPE they set them at 150 or 200 yds, not 300, and do them in Matte, and DUPLEX, NOT a WIDE waste of a reticle - the wide duplex.

They have written a few times, as recent as yesterday, 'Our fixed 8X has not come on board yet'

We shall see....as 'lit reticles' I have little need/want and won't buy....practical durable affordable quality optics, I will.

Not on a 1949 Brno model 21.....the rifle is svelte and clean, and only a cretin would mount a large scope on such.

If Leupold builds a new 8x42, you will see a BUNCH of Leupold variables come up for sale in the classifieds from yours truly, as I will be loading up on 8x's.

Gotcha, any 'mount' options/solutions? I gather a 6x36 won't work?

I will bet few here have,except of course for (what did Cummins call us?) Old Geezers......funny guys on here.

For quite a number of years I had a Pecar 4x81 in original Meopta mounts on it, but I wanted a new piece of glass and a wee bit less weight.
I now have a set of Talleys and a 2.5x8 VX 3 on it at the moment, but the scope needs to come back another 1/2" to be comfortable.....I also have a set of Warne QD rings on the way, and if they agree with me I shall throw the Talleys in the bin.
Which is all moot though, as I prefer to use the rifle with open sights.

Just playing with toys!

65BR, where did you see that at?

Bob....I am the other way about in that I have only owned a few variables (but a bucket load of fixed).
Just felt like a change this time.

I just called Leupold to see what they were doing.

They are coming out with an 8X scope next month through the custom shop.

8x40 with target adjustments and A/O.

Retail price $400.00

Not exactly what I'm looking for but being through the custom shop you could add or subtract some features.

A fixed-6 (or 8x) has little interest to me.

A 2-7x42 would interest me a bunch, as would a 4x42. Or a 2.5-8x44.

Basically I'd like some better low-light options from them. Did some low-light comparisons with my buds up at elk camp this year. It was, as I expected, fun for me and not so much for them. They had Leup VX-III's.

Just because I like fishing too, I'll say that all else equal a simpler device is a more rugged device, that's a given. But I have yet to have a variable cough a hairball on me. The old "that means you don't shoot and hunt!" won't fly cause I do, lots, as do many many users of variable scopes. Variables, at least the Leup, Zeiss, Swaro and Burris units I've used, are plenty tuff enuff.

So I hope Leup answers y'alls prayers with the fixed scopes but I'll wish for something else.

Hey, Stupid.... a 6x42 IS a low-light option. As is an 8x42.

Hmmm....yes, I am beginning to see why most of the other posters consider you to be a twit.

Lol.

Nothing quite like the guy who insults a perfectly reasonable post, without the slightest attempt at reasonable rebuttal. There's a home for you here, but it's gonna be crowded <grin>.

That's strike one, I'm sure #2 will follow shortly here........

Go your hardest...I rarely read your drivel anyway.

Nope. Not here to fight.

Well, that was easy. It ain't never not a good thing to flush out another'un!

(did I get the accent right?)

Bye, no one.

No if you were attempting to have an Australian accent.

Yes if you were trying to sound like you have a mouth full of c_ck.

He's got that one perfected, but damned if he doesn't just keep on practicing.

The problem was not his viewpoint....it was the arrogant dismissive way he threw it about.
But....you would be wasting your time pointing it out to him.

You'll be getting the "let's be friends..." PM soon from JeffObama...

Unlikely...I pick my friends very carefully.

My wish would be:

4.5-14x50MM in the 30mm tube with the side focus.
1/3 MOA Elevation to give 20MOA in one rotation
Hunting reticle set up to give windage hold in 1 MOA increments to 8 MOA left and right.
Ranging bars for conditions that stop the laser
All the latest upgrades to lenses and adjustments
Custom DCT with wind holds for 10MPH at each range

Hope this happens as it would be the best hunting scope in the world.

Maybe if it had the eye relief characteristics of the 3.5-10 models.

That plus Zeiss Diavari grade glass and S&B adjustment reliability and durability and you'd be right there.

I know you are, shall we say, "invested" in the 4.5-14 Leup but boy, I sure don't care for their low-power performance.

The "best hunting scope in the world" needs to do a lot better when set to 4.5x (and go lower in power, for that matter), than the Leup 4.5-14. For me.

An 8X42 scope is the cat's meow on a 22 Hornet for shots up to 200 yards on 'chucks.

Of all the Leupold's I've owned it was the one that lost zero the easiest/fastest.

I have noticed mine tend to change zero


Every time I dial the DCT.

I've not owned one; they haven't passed the eyeball test in the gunshop- for me.

I prefer lower-powered scopes.

Jeff,

I might regret this but would you please enlighten me on the low power deficiencies of the Leupold VX 3 4.5-14X50mm??

isn't that what your scope already does?? the only thing I wouldn't have is the ranging bars, its just too much in the reticle

Now that you mention it it does seem Leupold has made the perfect scope for me.

There's not any.

Set at 5x for full ocular I personally have no problem killing elk in dark timber with it here in the NW.

I don't remember, specifically; it's been a few years. I do remember that the Leup 2.5-8 flat killed it though, in terms of what *I* want from a scope. While this is as wild-ass a guess as is possible, I'll still go out on a limb and say that I bet a Leup 6x42 also kills it, when the 4.5-14 is set to 6x. For example.

You seem awfully eager to debate this scope being the best ever ever in the whole wide world, just based off of statements you've made. May I suggest, start a thread with an appropriate title and you'll get all the "debate" you can handle!

You don�t remember �specifically�???

You seem to catch a lot of crap around here, is this the reason why???

As to my opinion of the best scope I also have a few videos of actual field demonstrations to back up my statements and tend to refrain from wild assed guesses.

No big deal, I just thought you might have some real experience to back up your opinion and I always have an open mind.

Lets talk hunting instead of this jibberish!.....John how was Wyoming this fall? Is deer season closed? See any big ones?

THANK YOU!!!!

How bout them Packers getting a shutout?!!!!

Ever notice how JeffO and gibberish go together like peanut butter and jelly.

A Gibbering Idiot is He.


Oh, and a big AMEN to more hunting talk.

I'll be in the gunshop in a few days picking up F215's; I'll be happy to put eyeballs on one again and be more specific. It's a little disingenious to expect some one to remember exact specifics of a scope they looked at, compared directly to others, but didn't buy because they liked something better. No?

In general, I didn't like the low-power eye box compared to the Leup 2.5-8 I bought that day, nor did I like the full-power eye relief- which I compared directly to a 6.5-20 Conquest, which I did buy.

Look... you've made a huge generalization when you've stated, without qualifiers, that this is the best hunting scope period. If you'd like to see just how much venom that statement will bring- post the thread I suggested. Hell, I'll post it for you if you want, and you can sit back and watch the fireworks. You are getting a pass as a campfire sponser, but I assure you, broad sweeping absolute statements don't play well here.... which makes sense, as they are usually false.

I'll bring you specifics, and if you are capable of a polite conversation we'll talk. If not, we won't. Not gonna fight about it or anything else.

Did I hear Swampman singing?

question how many use a variable yet rarely change the magnification?

I'd rather have a low magnification fixed scope, Lighter weight ya know.

I'll take a 6 x 42 CDS so i don't have to send my scope back to Leupold to have the CDS dials installed.

ML

John;

A few pics will clear up almost all the questions re: JeffObama.

Someone, somewhere HAS to have his scope mounting pic...

And, the "rear-shoulder shot"...

Oh, and the "brush-busting test" pics...

Just for starters.

I ran the 4.5-14x40 LR for 2 years then upgraded to the 3.5-10x40.

Yeah, I said upgraded!

I never had issue with the 4.5-14, but was going from B&C to M1's. For the same $150 added it would cost to get the M1's on the 4.5-14, I could go from VX-III 4.5-14 to a VX3 3.5-10 with a pair of M1's by selling the original to fund the second.

The 3.5-10 is brighter, but I guess thats a given considering the VX3 upgrades and the lack of the optical extras for the side focus. Also the eye relief swing throughout the magnification range seems much less, though I havent measured. Proof of this is in the fact that I have the 3.5-10 mounted maybe 1/2" forward of where the 4.5-14 was mounted.

I wont knock a guy for running the 4.5-14, but having run and killed with each, I'll admit the 3.5-10 is better to me. I'm certainly not looking to go back.

My Leupold christmas wish:

VX3 3.5-10 AO, M1 elevation turret with 1/3 IPHY thread pitch and zero stop, with a Second focal plane reticle with duplex vertical post and windage hash marks on the horizontal set up to demarcate 2, 3, 4, and 5 IPHY at 10x. Maybe even tick marks between those if it didnt make it too cluttered.

Maybe its alot to ask for, and likely once I had it I'd want to revert back to something simple.

Its aproaching John Burns scope but mine is done right. LOL

While Jeff is expounding on schoit he don't know about (again), perhaps he can elucidate on the low-light failings of the FX-III or M8 6x42, too.

Jeff,

I really was interested in your opinion and thought you might have noticed a problem I had never encountered as I use the low end of the variable less than most guys. Not trying to piss you off but you can�t get mad if you make a statement and some asks for reasoning.

Have a look and give your thoughts if you are so inclined. I will read then with an open mind.

I do think our scope is the best, why would I sell it otherwise?? And I must have missed the pass I got for being a sponsor. Rick did tell me I took more of a beating than any other sponsor he has ever had but I took most of it in fun and had some fun with it myself.

Scenar,

I have yet to kill anything with horns but I have seen 1 great (370) and 2 good (320) bulls. I just need to be in the right place at the right time and it is just like hunting big whitetails on the riverbottom. I need them to step over the fence when I am there and waiting.

Hunted the last few days of the general tag and hauled the mules over on the east side of the Big Horns and spent 2 days with Kris Powers. He killed a nice heavy old buck but I didn�t see anything else worth shooting. Hard to shoot a young mulie when the tag is good for Whities until Dec.

I also got conned into packing an elk out of his last day hell hole. Still not sure how that came about but it sure worked good for one of us.

Hi John,

Thanks for the gracious reply, and I look forward to discussing it with you with some specifics in hand. I think what you've done in putting together the Greybull package is admirable.

For what it's worth, I DO tend to run my scopes set to low powers. I'll turn them up for long shots but they "live" set to 1.8x, 2.5x, 3x, etc (depending on the scope). Different strokes....

In fairness to JBurns, the 4.5-14x40's I'm referring to were the A/O models, not the SF one's he sells.

Azz-kiss, won't get you far this time...

When you're aiming at something, you don't even notice the ranging bars.....John's scopes work swell when shooting stuff far away.Even I could do it.....

I wish Hensoldt would enter into an agreement with Greybull Precision LLC and using their 6-24x56 scope, modifying it to Mr. Burn�s specs.

I like the Leupold FXII 4x33 and the FXIII 6x42.

I also like the Japanese Weaver K4 4x38 and the K6 6X38 and they can be had for a third the price of the Leupold.

The Nikon Monarch 6x42 would be a good choice too.

If you made me take a variable I would want the VXIII 3.5-10x40.

A Bushnell 4200 in the same range would work as would a Nikon Monarch. A Bushnell 3200 would be a pretty good cheaper alternative.

One of those would add too much weight as his rifle goes around 10 lbs already I believe.

My rifle is 14 lbs before I mount the scope.

Texas Sheep Rifle..

Good call on that and a couple other short Leupold scopes

.

I have other rifles, but for now it's my go-to rifle for everything. It doesn't see much use on game animals in this [bleep] state, but I get back to Texas occasionally for white-tail season and I'm going to CO next Elk season.

It would be: 2-10X42,30mm tube, mil clicks, FFP, mildot reticle, parallax free at 200 meters, 10 mils of elevation travel, and weighing about 18 to 20 ounces.

Thoughts?

yea, but i'll take it with the TMR retical... my fav of all time for the teeny gap at the intersection.

Pat,

No side focus?

IMO it wouldnt be needed for only 10X....I run a couple S&B 10X42 PMII's that are parallax free at 300 meters and havent felt hadicapped.(no side focus) I love those scopes, but once in awhile when going through heavy cover it would be nice to drop the power down a bit. 95% of my hunting out here is pretty open country. I run a couple of 3-12X50 PMII's and really like them but they are too heavy for a lightweight(sub 7 1/2lbs.)mountain rifle.

So Scenar, are you thinking the 10x 30mm tube for a lightweight
mtn rifle?

I guess my idea of a perfect setup would be a variable that you could crank down to 2X....with a 30mm body to allow enough travel to get 10 Mils of elevation. The 10X PMII's I run weigh in at 21 ounces. Leupold's 6X42 is quite a bit less...I'm still tossing that idea around.

A trim, lightweight 2-10x42mm with SOLID tracking, a dark reticle, constant eye relief, awesome low-light performace, a low-profile turret, and a great warranty is my idea of a perfect scope on a general-purpose hunting rifle.

My Swaro 3-10x42 AV comes close to that ideal, though it's not all the way there.

Easy solution:

Zeiss Victory Diavary 2.5-10x42mm T* VM/V

But it does unfortunately come at a hefty price tag...

Are you sayin' ya get what ya pay for? Whodathoughtit?

Stick,
Good to see you back. Been many a moon...

Could like an Ultra/Mark 4 6x40/42mm. That said I think SHOT is going to showcase the M5/Mark 5 S scopes which will crowd Schmidt on pricing and offer little more than rehashed specs(like 3x factor magnification spread), a 34mm tube, and locking turrets. Expect pricing to be goofy... Shot one on an Ashbury .338 Rifle with modest impressions to all but price.

Have but limited experienced with two [bleep] up Leupold Custom Shop 6x42s. Just had to have M1 turrets installed. Much like the Remington Custom Shop used to be they could dick up an off the rack rifle and only add a grand to the sticker... Should have bought them off the shelf.

Might even try a 3x or two...

Though I could settle for "Made in USA" back on the scopes...

Regards, Matt.

"In the world"
Wonder where we've heard that one....

Mr. Burns,
You've made enough gratuitous assertions between your revolutionary aluminum bedding blocked HS Precision(B&C?), if HS they have been doing that for awhile now, no doubt you are aware. Now a slightly massaged second focal plane Leupold is the "best hunting scope in the world."?

Dunno why anyone would not make the move to a First Focal Plan Miliradian Based Reticle, .1 Miliradian Clicks, and a proper Zero Stop to circumvent the importance of 1/3 MOA Clicks and the 20 MOA Revolution. You've built a system around a set of chamberings/load parameters that could have just as easily been done with an off the shelf Miliradian based Reticle with intuitive .1 Miliradian based clicks, and AGAIN gain a proper zero stop.

I'll be the first to give you a pat on the back for the videos, however, the commentary that you are tagging on your own "system" is beyond the pale. I wish you well but $6k for a Leupold Scoped Remington with a ballistic cheat sheet? The same cash can cover a new GA Precision Rifle with a Schmidt Bender 5-25x56 PMII, LP, P4fein Reticle, in Badgers...

I had to laugh the other day when you listed "mounts" as one of your challenges of building custom rifles... You use Dual Dovetails. The simplest strongest mount one can buy for $40. Not to mention the factory pot metal Trigger Guard... All for just $6000.

Truly hate to comment negatively, however, your full court press on a basic known quantity as if it's something original is difficult to ignore. Your research behind the trigger of your choosen cartridges pays dividends, however, I don't see anything really new.

Like the .264 Winchester Magnum VLD combination... Great chambering.

Regards, Matt Garrett.

Btw, really NOT trying to come across as a gutter snipe. That said to call too much of it NEW or Proprietary seems a stretch. Where am I mistaken?

Whoosh....

And, here we go.

Yeah,
I'm excited about this discussion as well...

Regards, Matt.

This is going to be FUN.



Bugger.....who has got an eating popcorn smiley??

+1 on Leupold making the 4x the same size as the 6x36.

Matt,

Hoping your World is well.

I remain content slicking up the good stuff,while others fawn over the most recent flavoring of schitt and it's inflated pricing.(grin)

"Yankee Made" would cheer me up and truth be knowed,it's been a damn longed time since anything got away from me...with any glass. Glass is great fodder for debate,but the money maker remains trigger time.

Best to you and your's.................

Well Matt I will make a short list of your mistakes:

1. I never said the block was �revolutionary� it just has some advantages

2. Our scope is way more than slightly massaged

3. You probably are right that you don�t know the advantages of using MOA instead of Miliradians.

4. We don�t use a ballistic cheat sheet

5. Do you have a GA precision with the S&B that could be considered a hunting rifle and would you be willing to have a little competition against one of my systems?

6. We don�t use dual dovetails

7. The factory BDL floorplate is aluminum not �pot metal�

8. If our system is a known quantity please show me videos showing this to be true

You are right about the 264 Win Mag with the VLD but I would bet you have never used the combo yourself.

Hopes this helps out

Right now I would kill for a popcorn eating smiley.

Thank you....I will have that.

Oh Boy---I love it when we get into �Contest Mode�. Matt this is an easy contest!! All you have to do is pick a range and shoot at sunset with the bright sky behind the target and the target being shaded if you will. The Loopy will wash out because the bright sky will completely overwhelm the inferior optical performance of the Loopy by not allowing the target to be visible and will have a grey �haze� to look at. Have done this demonstration more than once for people who think that the performance of the Loopy is on par with the German or the best built US scopes in those conditions.

You will win by default by not even having to fire a shot LOL!!

We pay Kimber $800 + for a rifle that cost them less than $150.00 to make.
They market them to people who will pay them.

John Burns found his market just like Weatherby did to the Hollywood elites and blue bloods. He built them cheap and was able to get high dollar calling them the best. People were suckers for high polish blue.



Nothing like American know-how.

It baffles me here why people have a difficult time with that.

Not everyone is a born salesman.

You mean like this?


dave

You can charge more when you reinvent the wheel.


From Lowlight on Snipers Hide:




dave

Mr. Burns,
I had hoped that you were a Gentleman and might respond without any undue rancor. Unfortunately I was mistaken and you've choosen to respond in a manner that says a good deal about you.

1. I apologize for using "revolutionary". It might have been been more productive to list the advantages your system offers.

2. In what way is your scope "way more" than slightly massaged?

3. I'll take your word for it that I don't know the advantages of using MOA versus Milliradians.

4. I do apologize for using the term "ballistic cheat sheet". I meant to indicate a computer generated drop and drift sheet that you had confirmed in the field.

5. I have a GA Precision Rifle or two, amongst others, however, I can't think of anything on par with your rifle. Further I know, without debate, I don't have any optical gear in the same ballpark as your Custom Leupold.

6. I apologize about misidentifying the Dual Dovetails. They are good mounts for the money and the mounts on your rifle look similar from a distance.

7. I should have said aluminum. You are quite right yet again.

8. "If our system is a known quantity please show me videos showing this to be true"(.) I don't know that your rifle is a "known quantity" and as far as I am aware you've already posted numerous videos. The same videos I complimented you on in the initial post.

9. You are quite right. I have never used the .264 Winchester Magnum with or without VLD projectiles. I had hoped you would share a bit more information about the combination.

Unfortunately I can't say that your response helped out. I found you to be rude, combative, assumptive, and generally thought the entire response could be said to have talked down to the audience. All in all I consider it, fwiw, an opportunity lost on your behalf. Not to mention making it clear how you conduct yourself and hence your business. Unless I miss my guess you're mouth will be the greatest hinderance to your success.

I look forward to watching you win over the boards...

Best Regards, Matt Garrett

He wonders why no one takes him up on the "challenge".

And not everyone is born a tool and die maker either.

So what.

Has that photo been downsampled to a lower number of pixels than before?

Still bogus as when it first appeared.

Matt,

Didn't mean to be rude or show any rancor. You asked me to point out you mistakes when you provided an unsolicited critque of my products.

I did and now I am the bad guy? Heck I even used one of those smiley faces

A peek through a 4-16X56 Hensoldt....Ok you mildot guys, how far?

Remember, the Vector never lies.....(grin)

Velvet bull from this summer...



One of my favorites..as seen through a S&B 4-16X50 PMII GenII

The size paradox...is it a small deer at a short range, or a larger deer further away???

But take heart, we are not the only ones to ponder lifes mysteries (from about the 30 second point)

Small or Far Away???

5-25X56 S&B PMII@25X. It's a coyote. Notice the the bolt handle is down..about 700 meters out.

Exactly why I dont leave home without the Vector.

Too small....fun though. And way harder than just shooting them. Taking through the scope pics of critters that is...

In your pictures the things outside of but nearby the scope are in focus.

I've spent all of my extra money on rifles and scopes instead of my camera....

I'm not commenting negatively on your camera in any way. My point is your pictures are fair to the scopes.

The pic (not yours) I've been bulldogging is like a shot of a TV screen allegedly showing how bad the TV's picture is, but the stuff in the cabinet right next to the TV is fuzzy and out of focus. The "evidence" of the TV being bad is no good.

No harm done....I only post in here to have fun and bs with other hunter guys.

Your pics are fantastic and speak for themselves as to your hunting ability. I always look to see what you've posted. Keep it up.

You get out there and do some really neat stuff, and so do a lot of the other guys.

I'm a casual hunter. I get out to a stand well before it's light and see if a deer I'd like to shoot will amble by.

But even with my casual style I've been able to observe how different scopes perform under a lot of light and atmospheric conditions.

I try to be as honest as I can, so the touting of obviously flawed evidence bugged me.

mm, which bogus pics were you talking about ?

The one dave7mm put up a little earlier. It's one of a pair alleging to show Leupold's obvious suckiness.

Formula is:

Distance to Target(Yards) = Height of Target (Inches) divided by he Size(mils) x 27.77.

Assuming this is a nice Mulie Buck, then TOp of back to botttom of chest is about 15 inches and it looks like it subtends 2 mils so . . . . . .

15/2 mils x 27.77 = 208 yards.

BMT

Good math!....you nailed it!

I carry a mildot master with me just in case something breaks.

Baffled a lot, eh?

Was up today, shall we say, returning some deer parts to the natural world from whence they came, and did some intermediate-range shooting since I was up where my steel plates happen to be.

Conditions were excellent and I was glad I brought my toys. My 604-yd plate got a talking-to in the form of numerous consecutive 200-NAB's launched from my Sendero II SF, 300 WM. Not a sexy rifle or caliber. Scope is a Zeiss Conquest 6.5-20. Jewell trigger.

I figure I've got about $2k in the rig. It does pretty good. I guess I'm of the mind that $6k buys a lot of ammo and a few more barrels!

.... the $2k isn't counting the lentils in the Crown Royal bag........

What's that taped to your stock..........Betty Crocker recipes ?

Drop chart for the ammo and bullet . . . . .

No, no, Roy got it right. Well, almost.

It's the Cliff notes for the condensed version of Hemingway's "For Whom the Bell Tolls". It's a good read when you are waiting for the barrel to cool.

It sure isn't a list of Boone and Crocket record animals taken in New Jersey Nice lookin' rig there Jeff.

To the original point of the thread: Dear Leupold, please continue to make your 4x33 and 2.5 scopes; include a 3x and an 8x.

Glad you still have a sense of humor.......

Mr. Burns,
I question your veracity in the extreme about it not being your intention to be rude from the beginning...

Further I didn't know I needed to file a solicitation to question one of your many assertions. The comment about your Leupold being the "best(scope) in the world" would generally be considered enough of a solicitation for discussion. On an open forum such as this one it is practically an invitation...

You would have gotten far farther by actually addressing the questions rather than beginning with a "short list of your mistakes"...

All that being said I have gained more than enough of an idea about you from your responses to have quashed any further interest.

Regards, Matt Garrett.

Btw, I don't consider you to be a "bad guy". Simply someone with too little faith in their knowledge which leads them to respond in a dull, heavy handed, and offensive manner to any comment not couched as a compliment. I've found through the years that the smartest riflemen, shooting instructors, rifle/pistol smiths, etc. have without fail been those with the most to teach... They have gone out of their way to share all that they have depending on your ability to grasp it... You've proven the antithesis to that trend.

Though as the old saying goes a bad start makes for a good ending... Good Evening.

Matt Garrett

Pat, check out the Canon G11 or G12.

Is it small and compact?

Pat,

It's not quite as small as some point and shoot cameras but it's still considerably smaller than an SLR. It's got full manual control features and you can shoot in RAW format. (which doesn't compress the image and you've got complete control over the processing when opening in Photoshop)

The articulating screen is what sealed the deal for me. PERFECT for getting sweet field picts without the need for contortionist skills.

Couple of shots from AK that I had handy in my photobucket account that were taken with it;

summit #8 camera phone

Well Matt,

My advice to you would be to not end your post asking someone to show where you are mistaken if, when they do as your requested, you are going to get all huffy.

Man up a little and take the free advice for what it is worth.

On a side note your are the first guy who told me I have �too little faith in their knowledge�. I think most guys around here don�t question my faith, just the knowledge end of it.

Morning Pat, it appears you may have a chart on your front rest? If so,do you have a better pic?

Many thx and as Wild Bill would say "shoot straight"

Dober

Am I the only one that is thinking that the best way to resolve a lot of this would be to get John, Matt, and Larry in one place and have them bring their rifles, put them to the test, and video (and post) the results?

I think that would make for some great entertainment viewing.

Or if you want the easy way

Range in Meters= Target size in meters x1000/height in Mils

So in the case above, if we guestimate the height of the target is just under half a meter, but more than a third of a meter, and it subtends 2 Mil

Range = (.4x1000)/2 = 200m

Notice the nice simple math when combining Mils with linear measurements in Meters. Anybody who thinks using imperial measurements or MOA is easier is simply scared of metric!

Or have never used it in real life.

It was fine in college chem lab, but everything here is still in inches.

BMT

Pete E,

Using MOA the formula is:

Range = (target in inches) Divided by MOA X 100

Range = 15 / 7.5 X 100 = 200yds

Most hunters in the US are not used to using Meters as a measurement of target size, much less a unit for distance.

How many meters is an elk�s chest?

Most elk are about 28� back to brisket so using MOA is simpler for me.

3 MOA is about 950 yds
4 MOA is about 700 yds
5 MOA is about 560 yds
6 MOA is about 470 yds
7 MOA is about 400 yds
8 MOA is about 350 yds

I wouldn�t say I was scared of metric but am not willing to switch over at this point in my life.

Besides, I though the metric system was just one more step toward The New World Order. Crap maybe I am scared.

Another big advantage for me is the linear nature of wind drift in MOA and using imperial yards as the unit for distance.

In a 10MPH wind the drift of my 243 is a simple divide by 2 formula at 7000ft and 30degs.

243 10MPH Drift

300 yds = 1.5 MOA
400yds = 2 MOA
500yds = 2.5 MOA
600yds = 3 MOA
700yds = 3.5 MOA
800yds = 4 MOA
900yds = 4.5 MOA

Switching to the 264 we can use almost the same formula but the 264 is divide by 2 minus 1

Example is:

800yds = 3 MOA

While we engrave the 10 MPH drift on the DCT for each yardage it simple for me, by a long shot, to use MOA instead of mils.

Lol, yeah....

I ran that drop chart at 25-yd increments out to 1000 yds (though at this point it's just hypothesis past 875 or so), and with a column for a 10 mph full value crosswind. It got big. I make smaller ones for my sporters but I do like that big honkin' chart for that rifle. Best part- it's a chart that has been tweaked and vetted by shooting a bunch over enough time and across enough different conditions that I know it speak'um truth!

That Conquest sure has been a reliable longer-range scope. Chattering Leup erectors are part of what led me to try a Conquest and I've not been disapointed by them. In fairness, Leup did address that in their latest rework of the VX3's supposedly.

I guess this is a roundabout way of saying, when my $750 was on the line, and after some direct comparisons with the 4.5-14 Leup we were talking about, I preferred this scope on balance. The easy "spec sheet vs. spec sheet" ding on it is that it has less erector travel than the Leup so I'll concede that one up front, though what has takes me WAY far out there....

A reticle having some windage hash marks would be very nice, whatever their metric was. Points to John's scope for that, too. When I was running a Rapid-Z I did appreciate that aspect of the reticle.

At any rate, in the business of long-range shooting I'm just an enthusiastic midlevel participant who appreciates very much the wealth of knowledge that guys like Pat, Dober, John, Rost, JWP, JoeCool, and heck even Larry <BSEG> bring to the forum.

And after they shoot their known rifle, supply a (one) rifle unknown with a day to familiarize themselves with it and see who is really the best shot.

RDFinn,

I want to be the worst shot but have brought the best rifle, so I am gonna sandbag like crazy if I have to shoot something else.

The point being any jackass (me) can shoot good with one of them Greybulls.

Based on what BobinNH stated I would have to agree that your rifles make long range shootin easy. But, heck, after shooting those pre-64's, most rifles would seem accurate...................

I'm bettin' on the Huskemaw boys..........

Ouch'

I would give you a hundered bucks if you could make them show.

If this gets pulled off, I like RDFinn's idea, and I'd send one of my rifles, with my handloads for it ("turn key, if you will... to "borrow" a phrase) for the unfamiliar rifle.

I doubt there'd be less than a few who'd also offer likewise.

And, that John says he'd sandbag, so as to try to make his rifle look better, says something, doesn't it?

Yea it says I am already making excuses for when my alligator mouth gets my canary butt in a sling.

What are you planning on sending keeping in mind I am recoil sensitive??

It'd be a surprise.

Im still lost on Matt comming in on a decent thread and going off topic just to call John out. Then spending the next few posts whining like a school girl that Johns response was rude. Realy, whats with that?

I can say one thing. If you took a run of the mill shooter like myself and had 2 guys with rifles, John with his setup, and who ever else with a Mill this/meter that rig. Gave them each 10 minutes to explain thier rigs to me, and then sent me out to engage multiple targets at varying distances. I can pretty well bet I'd do better with Johns rig.

Now thats not to say Johns rig is better, or even worth the money. Its just to say that I think its more intuitive for the average joe that doesnt care to become a millitant sniper type.

Given that thats Johns target audience, as well as Leupolds with thier CDS, ect.........it would be expected.

What realy seems funny to me is the sniper folks telling John he sells crap. And telling Leupold they sell crap. Thats about like telling Walmart they sell junk. They dont care, they sell what thier customers want at the prices they want to pay. Nobodies going to say Walmart and Leupold arent successfull. Even with his so called junk John is doing good enough to be a paid advertiser here.

To all the naysayers acting like they could field a better product at a better or equal price and be successfull. Where's your banners? I dont see your names listed as "Sponsor" of anything. Is it me or are none of the others that field a finished hunting rifle as a buisness model knocking Johns buisness aproach? Why does it seem like John and Huskemaw are in a market segment all thier own, and seemingly successfull at it? Why are so many folks in such a hurry to knock a guy for identifying and filling market niche?

Yeah I can see pounding him for the "aluminum block offsets the scope" comedy, but to attack his entire rig, and person?

Seems rather childish to me on several levels.

I'm so going to shoot a deer right in the face this fall.

Uhhh, ohhh.
I would have gone after Bob's family before going there.

You guys are ssoooo bad!

Yeah washtub accuracy is all I ever got from those old relics.....at that I had to hold my mouth part open and let the tongue hang out a certain way to hit anything.....and those 270's just sorta fall apart accuracy-wise after 100 yards (bullets got the BC of asprin tablets).

I dunno how I have managed to kill a damn thing with them.....been a real crap shoot all these years.....

After messing with John's 264, I felt like I was hunting with a muzzleloader.....

Pay Per View and proceeds going to charity?!?!

John is clueless and you'd do well to lend Matt your ear.

Just sayin'...especially given your knowledge base and "experience".

Thank me later.............

I don't think they want to play with me.

Dont doubt you one bit, but the constant attacks trashing decent threads gets old. Its uneccesary at best.

Facts is facts and if you don't know WTF you are talking about,don't try to feign that you do.

What gets old(and fast),is the frilly notions espoused by folks such as yourself,that everything is great. It ain't and obviously.

Though it do add a little sumptin',that it all goes over your head.................

If you'd like to pay a fee to have a rifle spec'd out for you, I'm sure you can find a few takers.

The fact that you can get the same for few, save the time it takes to ask a few questions and consider the answers, is nigh priceless.

Facts remain facts, and I guess I might be an azzhole for telling you that you're being dense, but that doesn't change the fact that you are.

Hey, more power to John if he can get folks to stroke checks for a rifle that can be spec built more cheaply with the same components, or better. Life is full of "stupidity taxes", and if he can make a good living by cashing those checks, well, good for him.

His best Marketing move,was to refrain talkin' glass with Matt.

But even he knowed that..................(grin)

Hey, I'd contibute to a "shoot-off video" fund (though not a hell of a lot)--especially if the video could include the evening after the shoot, will everybody sitting around a real fire.

Smart money is on Stick...

I just keep getting nibbles but boy that Little Fish is spooky

How much smart money??

I've long thought about a "Realathalon" Shoot.

MPAJ,no bipods or other stupid schitt,total glass removal from rifle(breaking ring saddless loose/reattaching same) to start and no sighters. A UKD and KD both,for giggles.

Just to sort who do shoot and how much and as an interesting observation to what gear do work and well..............

Pete E,
If God wanted us to use the metric system..........Jesus would have had 10 disciples!

By the way can I put a 8X first focal plane reticle on my Model 71 Win. .....and be effective?

Cisco

You get him to shoot and I'll come up with whatever I can scrape together. Don't try and make this a referendum on me and how much I'll wager; this is about you, Stick and Matt and who shoots the best.

Nibble Nibble says the Little Fish

.36" "clicks" and/or .25" "clicks"...matter not.

Erectors that track good dope do.................

.33 MOA not .36 but you are spot on with the rest

I said "click" dummy...................

Nibble Nibble

Are gonna play this game and where is Matt??

Facts ain't a game,though your Imagination certainly is.............

I dont burn enuf ammo to hang with this crowd but would definitely be interested to see real world "rubber meets the road" shoot off. I can't stand the lil bastid but somethin tells me the midget aint gonna come in last.

Your buddies painted you into this corner and now are wondering why the you are hedging away.

We both know this game doesn�t have a happy ending for you.

Dude,

I ain't midget short!!!

A little short for my weight but no way midget short

Your imagination is getting away from you.

That you think you've a clue,well defines humor...............

Damn I spooked the hole!!!!

You are the hole...............

The midget knows of whom I speak. Like I said, cant stand him, but this time I gotta side with him. Sorry Charlie...I mean Johnny

Buddy? LOL! Ask him what he thinks of me. Fact is I think he spends every waking hour in the pursuit of shooting and hunting with accurate rifles, and he has been doing so for decades.

Here's a "for example":

Remington SA receiver: $500 link

Remington bottom metal: $85 link

Jewell Trigger: $233 link

Pac-Nor barrel, stainless, fluted: $360 link

Action trued and lapped, barrel chambered and installed: $300 link

So, we're at $1,478, for the barreled action, Jewell trigger, and bottom metal, and we're paying full sticker price. Oh, and you got to choose the chambering, too, and not just one of three...

Now, add in a McMillan that's of a design that you choose, barrel channel cut to your specs, fill to your desired weight, and cut to your specific LOP, padded, and pillar & glass-bedded in by McMillan (none of which are options with what John puts out, btw): $803 link

We're at $2,281 now for the rifle.

Now, say you want a 20MOA rail and picatinny rings (with John's you only get the rings/bases he offers, no other choices). Let's just say Badger, for simplicity sake. Rings: $165 link
20MOA base: $150 link

$2596, pre-optics.

Hmmm... how about an IOR/Valdala 2.5-10x42 30mm? $1,275 link Of course, in that price range, you can choose any one of several VERY good scopes of your spec, not pre-selected for you with no options.

So, all up and scoped, we're at $3,871.

At this point, it's just to ammunition. If you don't think you can load for yourself, or have someone you know load for you, 100 rounds of ammunition with a bullet of YOUR choice (not preselected as an "only" option for you) for FAR less than $2,219, well, either you've got SERIOUS problems reloading or you need to meet some new people.

Figure, as well, that we paid full sticker price for everything on the hypothetical, skimped nowhere, and arguably upgraded on at least two if not three areas to the shooter/owner's specs (NOT the builders), and had the whole range of options available, not just a tiny, preselected list of chamberings as the ONLY options available.

We tweaked this based upon the shooter's LOP, preferences, and choices, built the hypothetical rifle to HIS specs, and came in way, way less than $6k, pre-ammunition.

Is it "turn key"? No, it isn't. Of course, if we used exactly the same components as GreyBull, we'd have an even greater margin of monetary discretion to tweak those loads to a "turn key" system, and likely enough left over to get a very nice rangefinder (at a minimum) if not that and binos.

But, again, if John has people willing to pay a substantial "stupid tax" to take a rifle that's built to John's specs and not to the customer's, with no choices available except for 3 chamberings, MORE power to him. I hope he gets richer than Croesus, because Lord knows there is an over-abundance of stupid people in the world.

Again, I and others might be azzholes for pointing out the obvious with the above, but me/us being azzholes doesn't change the fact of the situation.

You boys have more confidence in him than he does.

He knows enough to know how the game would end.

Ditto.

Neutral turf, too. Hmm.... Texas?

John,

Believe it or not, this is an area I have "experience".

Larry is Stick, is the Midget.

They aint calling you a midget.

Alot of folks dont like Larry's delivery, but very few will argue that he dont know of what he speaks.
But of course there are haters.

Arguing with him on the net is pointless.

VAnimrod,

You gotta be pizzed your hero backed down and it shows.

Wonder why when it is so easy to set up a rifle to run with the stuff we sell???

John;

First of all, he's far from a "hero".

Second, I haven't seen anyone back off/out yet.

Third, if this comes through, there'll be much proven all the way around, and as I stated before, it'd be DAMNED interesting to see how it fleshes out.

Fourth, it is that easy and you know it as well as anyone else out there.

Fifth, as stated, I hope you do make a killing off the stupid people out there with more dollars than sense, because there's certainly plenty of them and SOMEONE is going to make it; might as well be you.

ESPECIALLY on subjects he's well-versed in, and right.

What barrels do you use?...............

I just got off the phone with one of the best Alaskan sheep outfitters and he is heading to Kyrgyzstan tomorrow for his Marco Polo. Guess who built the gun he is taking???

If you show up at SCI or Ovis I will introduce you and you can call him stupid if you like but I wouldn�t recommend it.

I hope you get the chance to have as much on the line as this hunt is to him and I really hope your rifle works out for you. Once in a lifetime for most of us, if we are lucky.

The kind that scare you

I know for a fact I've had more on the line, so that means not squat to me.

Your imagination only scares you.

Feel free to talk in detail,regarding your rifle that'll accompany said Hunt. Barrel make,chamber specs,ammo specifics,load particulars,weight,contour,length,trigger,mounts/rings etc.

It'll be funny....................

[quote=VAnimrod
If you'd like to pay a fee to have a rifle spec'd out for you, I'm sure you can find a few takers.

The fact that you can get the same for few, save the time it takes to ask a few questions and consider the answers, is nigh priceless.

Facts remain facts, and I guess I might be an azzhole for telling you that you're being dense, but that doesn't change the fact that you are.

Hey, more power to John if he can get folks to stroke checks for a rifle that can be spec built more cheaply with the same components, or better. Life is full of "stupidity taxes", and if he can make a good living by cashing those checks, well, good for him.

[/quote]

VA,

I think you missed me somewhere. I never said I thought his stuff was great, worth the money, or something I wanted. Never said anything of the sort.

I'll put it another way:

Regardless of how simply you think you can better his stuff, truth is you dont commercialy like he does. And he alteast seems to be making a dime or two doing what he does. So apparently there is a market for his rifles. Much the same there is a market for a Leupold CDS turret marked for an individual round.

That I can recognize that I'm not in the market segment he is targeting and feel no need to spend my internet time tearing apart a guy, or his ideas just cause they arent my style doesnt mean I'm dense.

Its just not my way to personaly attack someone on the net I've never met and know little or nothing about. Likewise I dont tend to attack thier ideas, though I may attempt to point out what I think are the faults in thier ideas, but I atleast attempt to do so with some tact.

Where do we place our bets......

Dink

Nibble Nibble says the little fish

Looks like I'm mizzin' a pizzin' match...


Ingwe

Don't be afeared:

Your imagination only scares you.

Feel free to talk in detail,regarding your rifle that'll accompany said Hunt. Barrel make,chamber specs,ammo specifics,load particulars,weight,contour,length,trigger,mounts/rings etc.

It'll be funny....................

John,

This would interest many...unless it's a company secret.

Been asked before.
Proprietary information doncha know. If you want that pertinent information, you has to pay the price of admission....

Her imagination won't take her there. For reasons that are very well founded.

Too funny...............

from what I recall, Burns doesn't tell you even if you buy one from him ...

he simply says that he stands behind his "finished product", and that's all you need to know.

...or find someone with one of his rifles.

Well...she went from making a buncha fuss about a Hunt/Hunter/Rifle combo,to now being smart...by playing dumb.

Sam old schitt.

You can bullschitt the fans,but you can't bullschitt the players..................

Guess I won't be buying one, because that not all I need to know.

Good luck with that.

Little Fish,

I will answer if you will commit to the game. Want to play??

Another option, since this is not just about who can outshooting whom, but also about rifles and "turn key systems", is to have said rifles evaluated by a neutral 3rd party shooter who knows his schit.

A couple come to mind immediately that are not, and have not been, involved in said pissing matches.

Simply put, each person in this little menage a trois boxes up their rifle, and ships it with X rounds of ammo to the third party evaluator(s). Those evaluator(s) shoot the rifles on LR UKD and LR KD targets, from field positions, as well as bench test them, write up the evals, post same, along with pics and video (latter as available).

That, IMHO, would be a true test of "turn key" systems, as it were.

You have no game.

All you do is peddle SnakeOil to the oblivious.................

What difference does it make?

Youve already bad mouthed his rifle, his scope, his rings, etc, etc.

If its such a piece of junk why wont you "rub his nose in it".

Either agree to shoot with him or crawl away...

And, as always go [bleep] yourself.

I kinda like the heck out of that idea. Details???

Good luck with what?

I hope everyone knows I am having a lot of fun with this!!!!

\

I've a few hundered more rifles than you do,to compare those specs to,so such things interest me. Besides...it'd all fly well over your head anyhow,which would be funny to watch,so there's an added bonus.

In fairness,I've all componetry on hand that he touts,thus the barrel spec curiousity. We'll giggle about the 4.5-14x in a bit(not that you've ever seen one).

As per always,[bleep] yourself(you'll get more puzzy)..................

Stick, hate to tell you, but....it is time to either put up or shut up.

And while we are at it....Matt, you started this, so same goes for you.

rest assured, most any thread with "leupold" in the title gets a lot of attention

no one,

You flatter yourself in more ways than one...............

Funny thing, when I got on-line I thought, "how can I entertain John this evening"?

Throwing the limelight on me won't work Stick, your mouth wrote the cheque.....so cash it or back down.

John;

Simple.

Each person that wants to "play" takes a rifle of theirs, and ammo for it, boxes up that stuff and ships it to the neutral 3rd party evaluator.

The 3rd party has to be known to know how to shoot well, unbiased as to the goods in question, and a good evaluator of firearms/glass, and acceptable to all "players". Oh, and of course, agrees to do the evaluations.

That/those evaluator(s) shoot the rifles in field conditions, at known and unknown distances, as well as bench testing them. They do the evals, post up their thoughts/findings, along with pics/video, and send the rifles back to the owners.

Pretty simple, and as even across the board for the rifle/optics/system part of the comparison as possible.

As stated, two or three come to mind immediately.

I am at a loss as to why you don�t just agree and kick my dumb ass all over the range??

Whatever could be stopping you but fear and common sense??

Come on Little fish let�s quit talking and start shooting the steel.

half pint,

What you may have or not isnt the question on hand, but I appreciate your need to change the subject.

Either agree to back up your words or crawl away. Pretty simple.

And of course go [bleep] yourself.

You know what would be REALLY funny?

She sends one of her rifles and I'll send one of mine,both to an independant party to disassemble,index/measure and critique.

Cain't get no fairer than that and as a punchline we'll talk prices after the laughs.

Laffin'!..................

No...he didn't come up with the idea, VA did, and Stick hasn't committed one way or another.

Now that's a capital idea!

Damn, it's a wonder someone didn't think of it before.....

That great big cheque is still sitting there Stick.

What are you going to do with it?

I am in on this deal. Are we comparing out of the box turn key rifles or personal rifles??

Screw the third party "evaluation" foolishness...all you've done there is add yet another opinion...of which we already have plenty from where I'm standing.

Let the boys settle at a range themselves with whatever they believe to be the most superior firearm.

Wouldn't that speak volumes about what these respective gentlemen "know"?

As poor as I might be, count me in for $20 to see this pizzing match.

Plagiarizing Hollywierd??

Guys,

He does not want any of what I would bring so give him a little slack.

For the 3rd party, they'll all be "turn key systems".

You send one of your GB rifle/optics/load systems, and the other "players" send one of their rifle/optics/load systems.

The 3rd party doesn't know anything about the rifle/optics/loads prior to receiving the rifle, as they've never handled said system before, and they simply eval what the system is like for them.

Does Little Fish sell a turn key system??

I'd put Sticks 7-08 Ti over Greybulls "turn key" rifle.

Mag, Matt started on John, Stick sank the boot in when he thought he was down, and now that John has decided to not take their crap the fight has gone out of them.

Stick, if you cannot cash the cheque....don't write it.

no one,

I've been here for the whole show. Suffice it to say I see things differently than you.

Calvin,

That kinda hurts because you have made so many well thought out common sense posts.

Any ways I know you are a good guy and I will try and win you over. No BS but not many I would say that about.

Damn!!

i would love them all to get together and shoot it out and quit typing it out

John;

That's a red herring, and you know it.

If your product does what you say it does, it ought to be able to stand up against whatever Larry or Matt or anyone else has as far as being tested/evaluated by a neutral 3rd party, because to that 3rd party, ALL of the systems are "turn key".

If Larry sends, for example, a stock Remington Ti 7-08 with a 6x42 and M1s, with the drop chart taped to the stock and the loads for the rifle to John Doe for the test, it's just as much of a "turn key" system for John Doe as one of your Greybull systems that'd you'd send or a GAP rig that Matt would send.

That much, is obvious, IMHO, to everyone.

That was a common sense post. I've seen Big Stick shoot personally. You'd have to bring your A+ game to beat out his factory Ti.

A "independent" third party proves nothing, and just gives another opinion with no facts.

Each player brings his own rifle with his own shooting ability.
Pretty simple.
Either back up what you say or shut up.

I think an independent eval is the only way.
The question at hand isn't about who's the best shooter it's about which rifle system is the most capable.

So how many who've posted on this thread would be be willing to kick in $20 (or whatever) to put together this shootin' match?

John ...

we've been around that block before, and that's not the point. You offer a rifle that's ready to be shot, period. As long as Stick, or whomever it may be, sends a rifle and ammo that's ready to be shot with no other work by the shooter than putting one in the chamber and going, then it's as "turn key" as yours ... what you may or may not offer your customer after the sale is a completely separate issue, and you know this.

I've said it before ... I'm sure you can shoot ... and I'm quite sure your rifles are sound, reliable and shoot very well. I don't even have an issue with your price point, as I don't want someone telling me what I can charge for my goods and services.

Where I take exception to your claims and assertions, is when you say that your rifle will "out perform" any other long range hunting rifle out there.

If you want to qualify that by saying "out perform any other turn key system offered by a commercial dealer", that changes the equation because you may very well be one of the few, if not the only one, that offers that. Further, by insisting that your rifle only be compared to another as such, is effectively trying to disqualify any other rifles from the equation, thereby making yours the "winner by default".

If you really want to prove something about the simple performance of your system, it shouldn't matter at all who put it together, who did the load workup, etc... it should only matter that someone else is pitting a completed system against yours ...

IIRC, I am the one that originally came up with the idea of having an impartial, qualified third party shoot your rifle against someone else's to see if it could perform as well or better than yours - based on your claims of performance.

I still would be willing to send my factory Remington "VS" .243win bbl'd action simply bolted into a PSS stock (no glass bedding) ... topped with a 3.5-10x40 Leupold w/ M1 elevation turret in Talley Lightweights ... shooting the 105 Amax ... and have a third party shoot it against your "custom" that will "out perform" anything out there...

that is, unless you want to continue to insist on it being "turn key" by your definition ... which of course, disqualifies basically any other rifle out there, making you the winner by default.

i'd send 20$ to watch it live

Im in.

I'd nominate JB as the evaluator although I believe he is far too savvy to accept such a task.

I'm in.

Apparently you do.

I guess I am missing something, why are a few so against John B and his rifles? They are not what I would want and I think everybody knows you can build one for less money, but if he can sell them and make a living doing what he loves without hurting you in any way why not let it be?

I'm willin'!

another possible third party would be Montana Marine (Shane), if he would agree to it, of course. He can shoot as well as anyone, and at very long range ... he's always been very honest in his evaluations of everything, and has no dog in this fight in any way...

No doubt that would solve the question of who's the better shooter.

But, the 3rd party could easily assess which system performs better, and if there were a couple/three evaluators, that'd carry more weight. It'd remove the shooter element of it and concentrate it on the rifles themselves.

Which has been and remains a central point of contention.

To the shooter(s), all the rifles would be just as foreign and just as "turn key system" as the others, because they'd all show up sighted in, load developed, drop charted, and ready to go.

Get the right evaluator(s) whose word is accepted and trusted, and who is/are KNOWN to know their schit, and it'd answer quite a few questions.

Though, yes, I'd still like to see the bunch go head-to-head.

Asking someone to fly a few thousand miles, during hunting season on vacation time to settle an internet dispute? Come on guys... Be realistic. Are we going to be seeing gold coins soon?

Well spoken Sako75 and KCBighorn.

We are at a crossroads here and nothing but a trip to the range will settle this matter. Though I don't know or particularly care about any of the participants in question, I will say that only John seems to be willing to step up to the line and fling some. Everything else is just hot air now.


Count me in for $20 John, as previously mentioned.

I also think I'll put another $20 on John if for no other reason that he seems to be the only one willing to shoot it out...which says a lot more than all of the empty rhetoric on this thread.

ok then why spend hours arguing over it, talk is cheap

How in the world do we compare a finished system to one that the end user has had to do load development and all the other things necessary to make at least a middling good hunting rifle?

If we are comparing end-user systems then let�s let the end user use them. Little Fish want nothing to do with that game.

Apples to Apples my friend.

I have been accused of overcharging for a complete system and now you want to add end user load development and drop data to the comp??

My stuff will still come out on top in a fair eval but come on man let�s keep this level.

Just ship the rifles and the cost for that would be borne by pledgors here at the 'fire.

Done.

And, if they go the 3rd party route, would you be willing to be the evaluator or at least one of them?

The ones that came to mind for me immediately are all in MT: you, Shane (MontanaMarine), and Pat (scenarshooter). That isn't "volunteering" any of you, just simply saying that I'd easily take y'alls word and ability to do the comparisons accurately, unbiased, and very well.

WGM,

Your suggestion is excellent. It would also be a lot cheaper than sponsoring a pissing/shooting match.

But I have noticed a distinct lack of Shane's posts on threads like these....

Hell yeah!

Hell VA I could up the ante a tad on the build and still be way under 6 grand. I even threw the thread with the specs and pics to the upper end of the custom rifle threads hopin Stick might have somethin to say about it. He wont like the bullet or optics choice but then again, I didnt ask him. Stiller Tac 30 action $875, Brux barrel $285, chambering/threading/crowning/installing trigger/assembling barreled action $350, cera kote $300, PT&G BDL billet aluminum bottom metal $90, stock(not a mickey but the wife likes it)$100, pillar/skim bedding/recoil pad install $150, trigger $105, 1 pc 0 MOA tac rail $40. We at $2295 less optics. And even after adding some sure nuf quality glass there's plenty left over for other goodies. Always thought the whole purpose of having a rifle built was to get what YOU want, not what someone else thinks you need.

Okay, so now I am curious.

Are you saying that the system you provide, with the ammo you provide, isn't completed as far as load development and there's no drop chart for the loads that are provided?

Actually Calvin, I have been trying to find that old thread - anyone got it bookmarked, it's an absolute classic.

JB ...

Everyone once in a while I've been known to come up with a good idea, but don't hold your breath for the next one ... (grin)

I just don't understand why JBurns is so insistent on only comparing his system to another system that is "turn key" by his unique definition of such. As I and VAnimrod have pointed out, as long as an independent third party ends up with a rifle ready to shoot (rifle, loaded ammo, drop chart, etc.) that it's as "turn key" to that shooter as anything can be ... but Burns keeps trying to say it's not. I don't understand that, but oh well ...

As for Shane, I don't blame him for staying out of this ... but then again, that's one of the qualities that makes him a very viable candidate for being the "third party" ... if he would even consider it ...

I don't have it, but it was a funny one! Glad somebody knew what I was talking about!

It is an absolute classic - I might have to keep digging...

Mike;

Stand-by...

Last I saw Stick didn't come to the 'Fire in attempts to sell anything to the masses (I'm talking monetarily here).

I've no use for anyone that comes here and won't offer up the particulars of their wares.

A salesman is a salesman regardless if he is peddling Christ, used cars or $6K rifles.

Gold coin

http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/182519/1

ok guys...lets cut the crap. Bring your rifle(and I do believe this a hunting rifle competition...so no showing up with a 40lb tricked out dedicated target rifle) and lets let some boolits fly. Let the owners shoot. Screw the third party stuff. Cause this is just as much about the owner as it is the operator. KD and UKD LR shooting at its best. Just a straight up run what ya brung shootin match.

This is true.

I've never seen Doug try to sell a $400 Conquest for $800 because it was sprinkled in pixie dust. Might be a lesson there.

Oh, and John, you're not overcharging; you're charging what at least a part of the market will bear. That's pure economics.

But, you, I, and just about anyone here knows that the same can be built for far less without the "stupid tax".

Which, when you come to think about it, perhaps you have figured out a way to make stupid hurt, at least to some.

I keep offering just that ... here's a pic of the rifle I offered up to be independently tested against one of Burns' "turn key" systems ...



it's not a fly-weight by any means, but it's definitely a hunting rifle, and fits the bill of being just that, as well as "turn key" to the end user considering that it would be shipped with loaded ammo and a drop chart ...

but since I'm not a commercial dealer, Burns says it doesn't qualify as a "level competitor" to his system ...

Yup.Neither has Rick, Matt ect.Food for thought.

This isn't just about rifles, it's also about personalities and egos.

Shipping rifles to some third party won't settle this......this needs to be a face to face deal........

Question on the table is, who has the stones to actually show up????

Disagree.

John is selling a system and not HIS shooting ability.

I don't give a damn about whether John or BS or anyone else is a better shot. It's about the equipment pure and simple.

the whole thing started when Burns said his rifle would "out perform" any other LR hunting system ...

so it IS squarely about the performance of the rifle, and NOT about egos and/or pitting one shooter's ability against another ...

not saying ego's haven't entered into this thread ... just simply that the 'test' is about nothing other than rifle system performance ...

I lived in Alaska for almost 9 years and the only reason I ever left was when my sister was murdered. I can't imagine leaving Alaska to go to the other 49, much less to do something I could do in my backyard. YMMV

Thanks Steelie - hours of fun in this one...

So, let HIM prove it.......

and let those who say their system is better prove him wrong.......

I don't see this as purely an equipment question.......if it was, we could just lock each one down in a vice and use a remote trigger.......but where is the fun in that??

Regardless, larry's nothing but a coward if he doesnt shoot. You know it, I know it, and so does larry.

I don't know it. What I do know is he has helped countless folks on here, he's never been on here beating a drum to make money.

I am way ahead of you boys on letting the MT contingent shoot my rifles. My big concern is how to get it done as soon as is reasonable for all concerned.

I think Scenarshooter and I are going to have a few day of fun shootin this spring when hunting seasons quit and then when the weather cooperates and I think you can expect a fair evaul from him, and he might just be a pretty hard guy to BS.

Mule Deer would be a great guy to have shoot the system but I would hesitate to volunteer him as his schedule and interest are his own.

The big deal is Little Fish and his total lack of confidence in himself. I have seen him be the total jackass and now that he can put up or shut up he hides. Money is not a problem and time off is not a problem so what is the problem????

Whether or not any of you are a potential customer of me or not I think Little Fish has shown his true colors tonight and for me that is good enough.

I build a quality setup that delivers as all can see from the videos, if that is not for you great, but if someone wants a finished rifle that will hunt right out of the box I think I do a pretty good job.


Steelhead,

You had your chance to shut me up and you hid so what�s up now???

Let�s play with the best you got buddy.

It so easy when you goof balls think those toys you carry will run with the big boys.

My jackass attitude is not intended to pizz anyone else off but the few who are named here.

I know it comes off strong but sometimes you have to put up or shut up and I hope the sane will give me some slack here as I call these punks out.

That's part of it.

Hell, why not push for BOTH?

Get the 3rd party eval of the systems AND have each of the "players" together to go head-to-head with their system.

Cake, and eat it, too.

You'll do that all by yourself.

That has absolutely nothing to do with the question at hand.......a challenge was made and now we are waiting to see if this is all just big talk.......so far John Burns is the only one willing to back up his claims......

Then get John to fly himself and his rifle system up to Alaska and go at it ...

Stick and John shooting against each other proves exactly nothing to the guy looking to spend their money on a quality shooting/hunting system which performs.

Unless of course you're hiring either one to pull the trigger for you.

Stop making sense ...

Come on. Do you really expect someone to travel from AK to MT to settle and internet dispute? Is Burns willing to travel to AK? That would be interesting..(grin)

Ditto having either one or both there with the rifle to coach.

A "turn key system", ready to go, ought not need someone to teach you to use it, regardless of whether Burns builds it, or Larry specs it, or Remington produces it.

John;

Still curious as to your earlier comment about load development.

Are you saying that the "system" that you build doesn't have load development nor a drop chart done for the rifle? How, then, is the ammunition you provide with it as part of the package done up, if it's not load developed for that rifle?

Right. Here is one of Stick's 'turn key' rifles (secondhand rose).

He handed it to me, I dialed what his chart read, chambered a round and center punched the steel at @750 yards MPJA. First time I ever touched the rifle.

Agreed.

This eval can be done cheaply and at zero cost to the people sending their rifles to be tested (due to contributions from members here).

No travel or vacation time required. Simply a trip to the PO.

I can't "get" John to do anything??? I don't know him.

I met him last year at the Dallas Safari Club show, but he wouldn't remember me from anybody. I looked at his scope......I also looked at the Huskemaw scope.......I don't own either. I really don't care what he is trying to sell or what he charges. I am aware that most of us rifle loonies could probably duplicate or exceed his offering for less money....and I don't think he owes us an explanation for what he builds or what he charges. He says his system is the best.......let's find out!

I think the most fair way would be to fly all three to neutral territory so none have the home field advantage and let the cards fall where they will.

If you care to read the whole thread, Stick never challenged John, nor did Matt. VA posited the 3-way shootoff.

Good photo of Paul and yourself Scott .Can see the skull and crossbones on Sticks turn key.

Does me flying to AK set this up??

Let me know Little Fish. Your buddies are writing check you might not be able to cash.

Little Fish claims to have 6 months a year off but I might just be able to schedule a halibut trip. I love fishing with Doc Warners.

Does Little Fish have access to more than the 700yds range he seems to think is the end all be all??

You can shoot as far as you care to there.

Been through the whole thread, Matt and Stick disputed Burns' claim........Burns offered to prove it.......so, let's see them back up their claims!

I ain't got a dog in this fight........but, after seeing the smack talk from all three, I'd sure enjoy seeing how it turns out!

Steelhead, that rifle looks every bit as "turn key" as what you would get from John Burns. Likely didn't cost quite as much to put together though. Nice shot btw. Al


Oh, and I'll kick in a $20 if this comes together.

Then I will come to anywhere in MT you say and we will have a little shooting contest.

I will bring a camera man and we will post the video results.

Will you play with me??????

The argument is between John, Matt and Stick.....Steel has fnck-all to do with it.

Either Stick and Matt put up....or they can [bleep] well shut up and stop making snide remarks about John and his gear.

Here's the thread in which Jamison sold that rifle to Stick in '05. You could likely guess the price (you'll also notice that things like barrel make and trigger aren't secret)

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbth...ifles_for_Sale_McMillan_Leupo#Post504238

When did Rick die, and who the [bleep] appointed you Grand High PooPah?

Rick is headed to Wyo in November to check this schit out for himself.

Stay tuned for results.

Check what out?

The BS I am slinging,

So I should leave the John bashing to you, Stick and Matt?

Gangies do not seem all that fair to me......maybe to you...but not to me.

What is really getting up your nose, stick and Matt not standing up for themselves and their word.....or John coming out on top?.....do you have an issue with John?

Well, since it's November already, we should get the "skinny" before too awful long.

Why won't any one play with me??

Nope.

If I had the money and time, I would......but I do not think my old 1949 Brno in 7x57 would provide you with any competition at all, and neither would I.

Well John seems you scared them off, heck with the 20 I'll go a hundred, who's taking the money? Would be great fun to see who's talking the talk and who's walking the walk.

The problem I have is that some here continually say that a better system can be built for less money but when John, a paying sponsor, calls them out on that claim they merely repeat that John is overcharging.
That would be like me posting a place with cheaper prices for optics in every thread that Doug at Cameraland makes.
I would respect the fact that Doug pays the freight for this site and refrain from undercutting him publicly.

Is there anyway I can weasel myself into getting to test these rifles...I will even pay the return shipping..

Dink

Holy Christ.....I never even thought of that angle!

Come on Guys this can�t be this easy.

Little Fish and Matt seem to be conspicuously absent but still there has to be a real response.

Calvin,

I [bleep] you do I really do respect your opinion and that is not something I give away readily.

At the end of the day you actually kill [bleep] and that is great and the kid stuff takes it over and gives you the edge for me at least.

Give me a chanced here and thing will come out on the plus side.

I don't doubt your rifles will shoot. Good stuff sells itself and it seems this all begun when you began your drum beat on this thread. Regardless, what I do know is Pat could have a special run of 220AI's screwed together and offer them for $6K and I'd think about it. Course he'd not beat a drum nor mention SCI whilst attempting to sell them.

Oft times it's the messenger and not the message.

I'll be your huckleberry.....



I wont be bringing a knife to a gun fight......(grin)

I'm digging the 3 point support system(pod, rock, bag)...........grin

Pat ... But that's not a turn key system nor is it a hunting rifle ... At least not according to Burns ... So you're already disqualified ... (grin)

Pat,

They can't play and they want a champ.

We will have our fun but we both know the day will described the winner.

Ray has always said you could shoot and I would love to shoot with you but are you on the side of the wimps that will not shoot??

I know you and a few others are champing at the bit to shut me up and I will shoot but you have admit it is [bleep] they won�t play the game.

So what is the the Game??

I run under 10.5 Lbs and can bring under 9 Lbs.

I will enjoy this even if I get my ass kicked because atleast you will shoot buddy.

thanks

Sign me up for some of that [bleep]. I'd love to shoot with Pat and the whining bitch.

Shut up you puzzy as you had your chance and ran like the puzz you are.

Flashbacks from your childhood again?

Theres definitely some whining bitches on this thread, but IMO it's not John.
There's also some REALLY QUIET people who were spouting their mouths off pretty loudly not too long ago...

And then there's Maude.

I'd play some more kids but I have another 40 rounds of ammo to load for the 6x45 that just arrived. Unfortunately this one ain't turnkey so I have to do the loading.

I'll be happy if I can hit a washtub with it tomorrow.

Don't hide behind Pat.

Are you willling to play with the big boys ????

You are easy meat and we all know it so let me know the terms.

But I do hunt antelope with it!

It's a pretty cool rifle and not that difficult to shoot after you get used to the shockwave...laffin!

The WOW factor when you smack a steel plate or a granite boulder with it is worth the price of addmission!



It does this once in awhile....throws one I mean...(grin)

I really need a 338 Lapua...

What happened to Little Fish and Matt from VA???

Dear Leupold..

It's been since Aug 17th since I pulled the trigger on a critter. Please let some of your good 6x42 mojo guide me into a B&C buck tomorrow, so I can get on with life. (grin) Dammit, I've got a boat to tear apart and rebuild..

John has called out the self rightous scum that infest this site. I love it..

Looking forward to seeing what transpires.. Now scenarshooter, seems like a great guy so I'm definatley not speaking of him.. And Johns remarks(complements) of Calvin seem to be spot on. Espically helping kids into the sport..

Stick lickin wantabee's need to step up or forever shut the [bleep] up.. Man that would be nice.

I'd be there but I'd get my ass kicked..

Can't see dissin a mans passion.. He believes in what he's doing..

Calvin,

You are killing me here. I will get you on my side or die trying.

You know you are balanced and don�t have an axe to grind.

We hunt in different situations and like different rifles but I know you are a balanced guy.

Get those wimps too shoot!!!

John, now you are being obnoxious.....try to show a little grace.

Dude,

I ran out of grace quite awhile ago.

I just want to pull on a trigger and see where the bullet lands.

You don't sell balanced guys, so perhaps you could explain what characteristics comprise a "balanced guy".

Haha, I'm not really interested on being on anybodies side. It's November, the rut is going on, and I'm got big bucks on my mind. I'm too much of a puzzy to consider a shot beyond 400yds in the mountains on an animal. I'll admit to that!

That doesn't make you a puzzy; that's just your own personal ethical range.

Calvin,

Many of these goof balls are easy meat but I can tell the real deal from the wannabes.

I am officially kissing your ass because you are the real deal.

Take it for what it is worth but that is the situation as far as I am concerned.

We differ on what a hunting rifle should be but we also differ in our hunting situations.

No, that makes Calvin a hunter rather than a shooter.

Yes, well.....if they attack your attitude next you will not have as many backing you up.

I like that a lot...even if you did jerk one.

I suspect you could push that envelope if you wanted to...if it were necessary.

No ax to grind here.Never shot Larry's rifles, but have shot Johns,and seen two others shoot it as well......everyone hit what they wanted to,and I might add that none of us had ever touched off a shot over 1000 yards.We all center punched where we wanted with the system.It got downright simple at 880.Took a lot of the mystery out of hitting beyond 600 yards.

But John can dope conditions;this I know because I watched him do it.No guesswork involved.Shooting his rifle/system reminded me of some Palma Match rigs belonging to competitors I have shot to 600;pretty push button.

Cost is cost. I can pick up a custom Mauser or M70 built by some of the best of the past like Biesen, Goens, etc for $3k to $5k; I'd have to pay Dakota $7k-$10k for the same rifle today;mostly a reflection of the times.You either pay it if you want it, or move on.

Have no doubt Larry's rifles would lay them in but suspect they are slightly different animals, Larry's being a light 7/08;John's being a somewhat heavier 264.

I would not want someone aiming at me with one of John's rifles...or Larry's, or Scenar's.

My money is on Pat and that big .338.

Its a wicked, wicked rig

Not to distract from the infighting, but Leupold, could you please offer a non-AO 4-12 VX II with a 40mm objective? LR Duplex would be cool as well.

If this little event came to fruition there would be a winner, but I doubt if any participants would get a thrashing. In the end, perhaps all would sit down, laugh and discuss the finer points of the others equipment and technique.

It's the blood thirsty bystanders that crack me up the most.

Who do you think will volunteer for holding an apple on their head?

Doubt apples or nuts grow that big.

I wish that Leo would get me my spotter back so I can take Avs on his mtn goat hunt (lucky lil dude just turned 12 and he drew his first goat tag this year). Oh wait...they got me my spotter a couple days ago and we're packing the truck for a day on the hill.

You all have a super day, we're gonna be on the hill!

Dober

'luck Dober

i'm headed out the door with rifle in tow myself.

I'll give John this:

Thus far, he hasn't flinched from saying he'd shoot his system vs anyone else's, and I believe he'd send his system to someone else to have them evaluate/compare it.

I, or anyone else, can disagree with his assertion that his system is "the best in the world", or that it'd outperform anything else, but his willingness to put it to the test is certainly there.

Kudos, and yeah, I wouldn't mind shooting it either.

As to shooting against him, sure, and I've no doubt I'd get my azz kicked. I'm a good shot, but not great by any stretch. And, I've no doubt I'd learn a few things.

There seems to be enough $$ offered up to ship rifles, should that be the route taken, btw...

It's gonna be an awesome Big Sky sunrise, for some reason or another I bet Scenars already out there..grin

Have some luck yourself and make it your best day!

Dober

passed up a 736 yard shot on an elk with the .375 AI the other day because the wind was howlin'. that rifle is equipped with turrets/dope but the wind kicks my a$$

snuk up on him to less than 100 yards and lost him anyhoo.

was a fun day.

Waiting, impatiently, for the season to open out here.

BTW - y'all suck...

And, yeah, no doubt scenar's already out there.

I agree completely. However, those who have been around all the various shooting venues know there are those who are consistent winners. Not every day, but they shine more than occasionally. They shoot different rifles, shotguns, pistols or bows. There is not any one system that always takes the prize. One day one example wins and often another the next. The same would happen here. One day would only be an example of one, given good equipment and relatively even skill level.

Again, good luck to the Montana crew.

VA: Your not alone in being impatient and thinking those guys suck....

If I can manage it, I think I'll have to try to sluice another bird today... just 'cause.

And, yes, I know it's ML deer season in Virginia and NC, but there's a big difference between deer hunting and the time it takes to do that right, and KNOWING where there are turkeys very regularly, and being able to sluice one while still working the rest of the day.

Yeah, I know... that's cheating... sorta.... oh well.

Keep it at 500 and I'll shoot a bone stock rifle with a plex reticle.

Won't win, but it shoots plenty good enough to kill stuff.

My only condition is that Jeff O holds the apple on his head.

You should feel lucky, I'm leaving to get the truck inspected. Just a great way to spend the morning.

Wack a Turkey for me.

Has anybody else wished for a Leupold straight 8 power, parallax adjustable with a selection of reticles and choice between turrets or no turrets?

Fred

Can't say that I have, though I have been impressed with Leupold's efforts as concerns the fixed six powers.

I guess I am a typical consumer- If they came out with a straight 8, I'd want a straight 7.5 power in Matte with post and cross hairs, or some other combo that I wouldn't buy, and no one else would either.
But a good straight 8 would be dandy on an accurate 243-

fred

I hear you, Fred.
The more choices a guy has, the more he wants.

This is getting really good. What are the ranges going to be shot and what are the rules. Will the rule be---bring your own table and rest to shoot off of? Number of shots (sighters or not, time limitations etc.

Where will this little contest be held someone said Texas--sounds good being right in the middle????

When this is determined then we can start placing wagers or can everyone play!!

Passed on several bull Elk last week, from 405 to 550 yards, no wind, had my 7mag Sendero full of 168 Berger VLD's and an inexpensive 10x supersniper with a Kenton turret, could'nt pull the trigger though, just to much work getting them out, been there done that, just wonderful to sit an watch em graze,gettin old I guess, Someone should organize an annual Campfire shootin match for members, would be a fun get together and be able to meet some new guys and show em whatcha got.

After reading the whole thing that's pretty much my impression, and I don't know any of them. Burns seems willing to make it happen, the others are hiding. BTW...I can hit a pie plate at 325 yards, with a stock Tikka Whitetail, 7 out of 10 times on a calm day. What do you think of that?

Hah, I can occasionally use the urinal without hitting the floor!

Add me to the chorus who saw John step up and, if I read sign right, even go so far as to offer to travel to the other guy(s) to shoot. The other guy(s) got awfully quiet, and shutting Stick up ain't ever not a good thing, if only obviously.

I sure as chit ain't signing off on the Leup 4.5-14 being the best hunting scope ever <grin>, nor on the concept of $6k turnkey "systems". But kudos to John for being willing downright eager to put his setup where his mouth is, in what would be a very high-profile test of same.

I hope it happens and my $20 is in the pot.

Some folks aren't realtors, hence they actually have to work. It's akin to your numerous 'victories'.

Glad to see you being a dumbshitt is still a constant.

That's funny schit right there...
That & all the "Little Fish" bullschitt you keep throwin out...
Snake oil is all you got...high priced at that...I'll kick in some cash...if need be, more than $20 ...video posted would be priceless...

speaking of priceless, you gonna take your rifle and go give him a lesson?

Fixed it for ya...

Laffin'

That would definitely increase your focus.

You're missing the point...as is he.

And middledork is missing a brain.

Another california keyboard specialist who doesn't have a clue.

O.K. middlefork is willing...


ETA: I'll dust off the 35 yr. old ADL 7 mag & swap out the scope...should be fun. Nothing fancy here & I'll probably get my ass handed to me, BUT WTF????

When is this shootin match gonna be?

You gonna show? Or just sling insults?

Middlefork, if you are done with wanting to kill me, I'd be happy to shoot with you if you get up this way. Lunch is on me. Just for fun. Open offer.

Never wanted to kill ya...chit, I prolly couldn't even give ya a proper bitch slap without gettin my ticket punched.

I guess I'll kill him then.

Take a number!

WTF good is it having me on ignore if you toggle???

Lol... good point. Well, I use ignore as a tool to help myself remember not to be an argumentative azzhole... some guys I do toggle because I find what they have to say to be interesting, when they aren't yelling at me!

Jeff, I couldn't have written it better myself; although, for the first time in a looooong time, I don't have anyone on ignore. I find it helps to start a long post, and when I get to the end...I look at it and ask myself, "who is really gonna give a [bleep] if I post this"? Often, by then, I find even I think what I wrote was pretty much worthless, and I don't post it and no one gets pissed at me...etc, etc, etc...

Mike, while you're digging, watch for the Brothel story too.

JeffObama uses "ignore" as a tool to remember not to be an argumentative azzhole, huh?

Too bad he hasn't found something to remind him to not be an lie-beral dumbass.

lol

Well since the pizin match has died down, I'll again put in my order fer a 3-12x50 LR with a duplex reticle that falls somewhere between Leupold's std and heavy duplex

Since I had to miss most of the pissing match I had to read everything in the last little bit. I think a true test of any system would be to be able to have anyone shoot and get similiar results. I think the best way to "score" any shooting would be cumulative, each shooter using their own system as well as the system the other guy uses for a total score.

IMHE someone like stick or a dozen other guys on here can pick up their rifle (sticks Ti as an example)and make things look easy. Some guys can have all the gear in the world and still make things look damn difficult. We all make different choices based on our budget and style of hunting but the differences should be appreciated not ridiculed.

I may prefer FFP scope and Mil adjustments but I have no doubt Johns system would work well with very little prep and I have seen enough of his shooting to know I would not want to put money against him. I agree with others than 6k is alot but you have to remember we are all rifle loonies and playing wih the setup or getting loads settled is part of the love we have for the game.

John,
The only thing I wonder about is why you keep certain things so secret? Im sure your not using crap components and can understand how chambering specs or minor tweaks might be best kept inhouse but what wrong with naming component manufactures? As a specific example you can go to GAPs site pull up any rifle and see a full spec sheet showing everything from bottom metal to barrel maker.

I wish that I could have a M1 put on top of my old 7.5X Leo, love that scope for yotes and such! (I even got lucky and found one with a dot in it..)

Dober

Has Leupold said they can't/won't do so?

Leo hasnt told me but I spoke with SU about it and they told him that they wouldn't.

Dober

Well, call Leupold and ask them. It may be a serial number range, or something else rectified, or perhaps SU just got bad info.

Worth a call, at the very least.

I'll give it a shot, thx

Dober

A 7.5X fixed?
Cool! How old is that scope, Mark??

tis very old, I've got two of them and totally luv them!!

Dober

SU35: "Dear Leupold" - please bring back the wonderful 8.5x25x40mm variable scopes!
I have several of these scopes and why on earth you'all quit manufacturing these a few years back is beyond me!!!
Also try something that will lower the retail prices of your entire scope line - not much just 10% to 15%.
I find myself shopping on the used market for scopes of all brands anymore.
Thanks for all the wonderful scopes you do offer anf for the unsurpassed factory warranty and sevrice you have provided for many decades now.
Long live Leupold & Stevens!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Calvin: Are you being serious?

Your question: "Curious what you think the 8x42 will do for you that the 6x42 won't"?

Calvin, I am going to answer your question on the off chance that you are being serious and do NOT know the obvious answer to the simple question you pose.
A Rifleman can shoot more accurately (smaller groupings of ones bullets!) with a more powerful scope.
Thus the primary reason folks want more scope power is to shoot better (more accurately!)!
Sheesh.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Idiot.

This thread may have legs, after all.

Established some time ago...

Where ya been? grin...

VANimrod: Are you as stupid as YOU make yourself sound?
Hold into the wind
Sincerely
VarmintGuy

VA isn't stupid... not per se anyway. Lol.

John Burns: I had made the comment that the 4.5-14 Leup wasn't my favorite all-around scope and you asked me for specifics. My comment at that time was based on comparing them side by side in gunshops and it'd been a while.

I was in the gunshop today so I imposed upon them to let me look at one again for a bit. It was the newest version with a CDS and no AO or side focus. Not sure how or if that differs OPTICALLY from your scopes.

First- nice scope! Undeniably.

That said, I like more eye relief on the top end, and I like a more generous eye box on the low end. Set to 4.5x, it wasn't hard at all to get the image to blink in and out by moving my head around a bit on the stock, and I don't like that. I could make a 4.5-14 work for just about anything, so in that respect, it is obviously very versatile. However, for my purposes lower-powered scopes that address my particular wants work better for me. My scopes spend most of their time set to 3x or whatever; how a scope performs on the low end is important to me due, probably, to how and where I hunt.

So- not doggin' your scope nor Leupold, but I'll stick with my assessment that it isn't the best scope in the whole wide world for how I hunt.

Okie dokie....I see our miniature rectum ranger from the great white north is back...lets get this shootin stuff over and done with...but then again...I'm still trying to figure out which one is scared and which other 2 are glad of it

Well bugger me....this is still going!

Oh how the Do-nothin' Gang,reliably does nothin'!

Am getting a kick outta K-she(who'd require a co-signer to buy dinner at Brad's drive-thru window),as she somehow laments my not traveling 5,000+ miles round trip to rub her nose in her own stupidity,as per her estrogen fueled whim. THAT is classic stuff!

Now ask her to post a pic of this year's "conquests" and it'll either be Rats Inc...or Silence + delete. Too funny!...................



Stupidity is the gift that keeps on giving..............

dave

dave

Care to start maligning folks parents, wives, and kids again, you worthless pile of schit?

I love the optics forum...

Figure that, to date, VarmintGay has insulted my wife and child, safariman's wife, and dvdegeorge's parents.

Funny, I recall a day that doing so would get your azz booted around here, as wives/kids were THE third rail and completely off-limits.

Time's have changed, I guess... and anything that drives traffic is kosher unless a sponsor throws a fit.

+1.

It oftentimes reminds me of a line from a comedian; (name eludes me right now)

"Typical conversation from the mill my father used to work at".."you suck, #*^! you."

Yep,

The minute schit that is fought over is hilarious. Most of it not making one ounce of difference during a hunt.

Throw in the fact that the specs most people hang their arguments on are incorrect about 50% of the time and you have some real entertainment.

I'm thinking alot of these optical scientists don't hunt much or would rather discuss far-out theoretical situations concerning optics than actually go out and use them in the field.

JM

There's a handful that constantly get asked to put up picts of their excellent adventures where a Leupold simply won't or would not have cut it....the response is always the same:

FWIW, re: VarmintGay's "class":

http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/4391422/5

http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/4400583/2

Sean-

One extreme to the other...
The only time I see VG's posts is if someone quotes him.

Burris, Burris is the answer

To the question NO ONE should EVER ask!

Okay, I will play.....what scope is best for hammering in tent pegs?

Probably S&B.

Uh oh....now you have done it.

It could be NF, or USO too. They all have the heft so you can make a smooth swing and let the "hammer" do the work.

I'd take bigstick over varmintgal any day.
At least he can insult a person with style.


dave

Stick also formats the body of text so it's readable.

what
�DO
you MEAN
by THAT??!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Barska. Cheaper than most hammers, good for nothing else, and recyclable, too.

Yes, stick is an arrogant, ignorant [bleep].....but he is my type of arrogant, ignorant [bleep].

But could you get one peg in before the Barska caved?

Tent pegs deserve better than Barska

Use one of their "tacti-fool" tank versions, to hedge the bet.

And, only one way to find out...

Ouch.

Well. Don't want to get lumped in with the "handful" buuuuuut... this was my buck from last season and he was the epitome of a low light deer. It was right on the edge of what my 1.8-5.5 Conquest could do. From my backyard comparison tests I know for a fact that this scope goes "deeper" than a Leup 2.5-8 by several minutes. So it's not a stretch to say I'd have not gotten this buck if I'd still been using a 2.5-8 Leup (a scope I like very much btw).

So there.