Home Forums Hunting & Shooting General Big Game Draw Odds For Montana

i never gave a chit bout the leased land.....i aint allowed on plenty of land not leased by outfitters....its privately owned land...i dont figure i got much of a say on who is allowed on private land...

only thing i ever figured is if the animals were present on the land during the hunting season and the land owner turned away hunters like myself willing to shoot does then they should not be able to put in to allow post season game damage hunts on their land....if you wouldnt let me shoot the things during the regular season you shouldnt get special consideration post season....

on the west side of the state where deer and elk will be at high altitudes and dont come down till the last week of the season or later is a different issue....

arrogant outfitters trying to push around Montanans like myself and my buddies taking ppl fishing on our dime and expected us to pay to join their organization to do so is what pissed off alot of folks around here....im a hard headed Norwegian, you dont tell me i have to pay some [bleep] outfitter organization to take some kids fishing for free....

Stealing? Hmmm. That seems like a ridiculous charge.

I like the guy who accused MT of being full of Democrats. NR Elk tags have what, 40-50% success rate? What is more free market than trying to match the supply rate to the demand? If you want to place political labels, I would say that is a conservative tack.

As I stated in another thread, I voted for 161 because on principle. I don't think that some should be able to buy their way to the front of the line. The fact that my interactions with outfitters have almost always been negative didn't endear me to them, either.

As for the Doc, I don't think he will fare badly. I think that the raise in price along with the increase in tags will make the next few years at least easy to draw, and it will cost alot less than leasing the land for that tag. Heck, Doc should lease his land to Dink et al and take the extra to put in for tags in other western states. Doc, you could have an all-expense-paid trip to WY to hunt elk next year with what is left over after buying your tag. No need to thank me!

I am not glad to see the NR tags raised. I thought the deer tags were raised too much. However, I got to vote yes or no, not how much and where. So you think I'm stealing from you? I guess I will still sleep OK tonight. You see, I could make alot more money if I moved, but I pay that price to live in MT. I pay that price for a good place to raise my children, the outdoor scenario is part of that. I work harder for less in exchange for living in MT. Yes, I will sleep OK with my decisions.

As an aside, I do know some NR who come here as a group every year. They put in for NR elk tags, and about half get drawn. The rest buy deer tags (unlimited) so they can legally be hunting, and they party hunt for elk (illegal). The higher deer tag expense will probably put a damper on this, and that doesn't hurt my feelings especially. They are friends of the family, and I don't make it my business. But I am not particularily fond of it.

I find it completely humorous that someone is complaining, this much, about a tag fee increase yet they pay to lease 1000's of acres and stays in a hotel. Me thinks someone's got things a bit mixed up...

NR elk tags have a 40-50% success rate...How many of those non-residents paid to hunt private ranches to get the success rate that high?

I keep hearing about how everyone that works in montana is under paid and how they pay that price to live there. Well if the rest of us make more money (I have no idea if that is true) you guys should be glad everytime you drive on a state maintained road, bridge or overpass. Those are all paid with federal tax money that we get to pay more of since we make more money.

I know alot of people are mad at outfitters for various reasons but guys like me have nothing to do with that. I pay a private ranch owner to hunt. I am sure the ranch owner spends most of that money in montana either on his hired hands, feed or equipment.

Pointer what I pay alot already as a non-resident with out the tag increase. I think a $200 tag increase is stealing. The people voted against the outfitters and against the non-residents in hopes of having these big ranches that are leased opened to free hunting. In my opinion these people voted on a dream and now I have to pay for there dream of free hunting on ranches that I don't think is going to happen.

I heard everyone say about non-residents paying there way to the front. What are they going to vote against next custom rifles? Since the average guy can't/won't afford a $7500 custom rifle are they going to vote and make it a law that one can only hunt with a factory rifle that cost less than $600? What about the guy that can kill game at 800 yards he will kill more game than the average guy. They going to outlaw rangefinders and shots over 200 yards so its fair to the citizens of montana?

Dink

The outfitter guaranteed tag was the lever that swayed my vote for I-161. I have had an outfitter approach me and inform me that he had the lease on all the land in this area and that I could not legally hunt there. He stated that he personally knew the owner. The problem with his statement was that I was the owner of the land. This I informed him of and escorted his ass off my land. The one thing that gets me permission in the breaks country is that I allow local ranchers to take the alfalfa hay off my land and graze their cattle. Now, this is only 20 acres. But, it is my land and no stinking outfitter is going to bluff me. I have had two run ins with outfitters that were in the wrong. Both did nothing to gain my respect for them. The MT outfitter association will, not doubt, challenge I-161 in court. This will be tied up in litigation for some time. I am sure we have not heard the last of this bill and its' outcome. Stand by! MTG

In case you didn't know, I too am a non-resident. However, I don't have the $$ to pay landowners like a "rich guy" like you. I sleep in tents and I hunt public ground. It's "rich guys" like you that have locked me out of places to hunt that I used to have access to just for asking or offering to do some work. I ain't sorry your puzzy hurts...

If you don't like MT "stealing" your $200, then stay out. I bet if you posted your gear list and expenses from your last trip to MT, I bet I could cut out $200 that you wouldn't miss. The drum you are beating is getting quite shrill...

And believe me, I know a whole hell of a lot more about the federal land, state wildlife issue than you and your arguments have lost at nearly all court levels. Give it up.

I'm beginining to think your screen name is very appropriate...

once again the Feds are pulling money out of the state with leasing grazing, mineral and timber rights as well as not allowing the state to tax the big tracts of tribal land....only fair they give us money back....

$200 extra for the tag aint stealing, your voluntarily giving the money....dont like it dont have to pay it....

atleast 2 of us have said we voted against it cause outfitters have pissed us the [bleep] off, the guaranteed tags and access to private land aint why we voted.....the [bleep] outfitters attitude is what got us to vote for the [bleep] thing....

your reading comprehension [bleep] sucks...

Sorry I wasn't clear. I was referencing a draw rate success, the actual success rate for filling elk tags is much lower. Buying them is the easy part!

My vote had nothing to do with you, but with fairness in general in the drawing system. The difference between an elk tag and a rifle is that one is bought from the gov't. When you can curry special favor from the gov't with money, we are essentially facing corruption. When a specific lobby can manage to have that money come through their industry by swaying some pea brained politicians, that is corruption. You undoubtedly understand the difference between publicly owned property (game) and privately owned property (rifles).

The reason this, and other issues, have to go through voter initiatives is b/c politicians are too cowardly to stand up and do what is right and what the folks want, so we have to put it to the people directly to vote up or down. The people spoke, and a consequence of this correction was that revenue had to be replaced. Considering the drawing rates, I think the elk license increase was warranted. The deer tag increase seemed drastic to me, but I didn't get to decide. Also, I'm not privvy to the numers involved, or smart enough to conduct a proper analysis to determine what sort of price shift the market can bear. In my opinion, there will be alot less people putting in for elk and deer. Next year elk tags will be a bit more expensive, but easier to draw. Then NR's will be able to get their tag for less than they would have paid for the outfitter's tag and use it where and how they wish. I'll bet there will be far less deer tags purchased, so those who have them will have less compitition in the field. Maybe this will translate to you having to pay less for a lease? Silly that you lease anyhow in my opinion, but I don't wish to tell you your business. It is funny to me that someone who choses the elitist route of securing a lease in an area with so much public land, and at great personal expense, is grumpy about kicking down a couple of hundred bucks more that will undoubtedly keep poorer folks from competing in general (more elitsm). You will certainly not hear me begging you to come purchase a deer tag though! You can come back to MT and shake your fist and be angry that we stole from you (?) or you can go somewhere else and pay a similar fee. Considering your bitterness, how could you enjoy coming back here?

The only ranch I've ever known that had a private lease was north of Terry (as opposed to an outfitter lease). The nice folks who owned the place locked out all locals because some guys from WA paid for the rights year after year. Last year they coudlnt' afford the lease, and she gave me permission to hunt their place as a result. I never made it over to hunt, though it was a good piece of property. I did hunt about 20 miles from there 3 times on other property, BMA, BLM, and private (where permission is given to anyone who asks). I didn't need to drive the extra 20 miles b/c of so much other property to hunt. If you don't come back and lease your ranch, maybe next time I knock on their door they will say "sure." I can't say this will happen anywhere but where I experienced it, but I personally know of this one example.

IIRC the overall success rate for elk hunters in the state is somewhere between 20 and 30%....no guarantees chasing elk even for locals.....

Weak argument for justifying the difference in federal monies that come into/go out of a state...

Regardless, it doesn't matter, IMO, on the subject of tag prices anyway.

get rid of the rez and the state would see a huge up in revenue from oil pulled out of the ground.....

as i said, i would be fine with not taking money from the feds if they turn over the federal land in trust to the state.....its the feds that insist on us having the great roads, most of us were fine with the roads when they were gravel.....

DINK,

Montana has previously raised the prices for tags (both resident and non-resident), many times--and every time people bitched about it. I can remember when the price of a resident deer "A" tag first hit $10. You should have heard the bitching then.

But the state also kept the non-resident "combination" elk-deer-bear-bird-fish tag at $150 for years, long after other Western states started charging much more for similar tags. The game department finally realized that they were way behind the times. Did anybody pat them on the back when they were almost giving away those tags? No--but when they raised the price the screaming sure started.

Yeah, I do go on some free hunts, and occasionally get a discount on a hunt. But I also shell out thousands of dollars a year on hunting in various places, and have yet to bitch about the prices other states, provinces or countries charge. If I don't like it, I look elsewhere.

Yeah, I'm "lucky" that I can count those hunts as business expenses. All that was required was working a lot of other jobs (mostly labor) during my 20's while learning my profession. Even after starting to make a full-time living as a writer at age 30, I didn't make enough money to just survive for several more years. I never hunted anywhere outside of Montana or went on an outfitted hunt until I was 35. All those "free" hunts are the only benefits I get with the job--which isn't the best-paying in the world. But I decided long ago to make this my life, so don't bitch and whine.

Anymore most of my hunting is, once again, back home here in Montana. I buy the resident combination license just like anybody else, and hunt mostly on public land or Block Management. There are 3-4 farms and ranches I can hunt on, because I'm friends with the owners, but I don't have exclusive rights to hunt any of those places. Oh, and I have gotten permission to hunt private land several times because I've volunteered to shoot varmints or doe deer, which eventually morphed into permission to hunt bucks as well.

I had mixed feelings about 161, because I have a number of friends who are outfitter--but I also watched the quick and considerable rise in outfitter-leased land when the guaranteed tags started. There was a lot of anger among average hunters back then, and evidently there still is. You bitching about a $200 price hike isn't going to make it go away, and isn't getting much sympathy here because $200 obviously isn't a 60% rise in what you pay each year to hunt Montana.

LOL rich guy like me ...now thats funny. What I am is a hunter..period. All I do is hunt and shoot. Those are my only hobbies/interest.

Pointer the one thing you got right is that I would not miss the $200. $200 would not cover the bullets I send down range for practice before the hunt.

The problem is as long as people like you stand in line and pay the fee's they will go up. I can't believe as a non-resident you are happy about this. I guess you can brag to the guys you worked with how much you gave for a muledeer tag. As your laying in your tent next year I guess you throw your chest and tell yourself how much you have in the muledeer hanging outside (if you can find one).

Dink

Muledeer I know you earned your way as writer but don't let on that you get no breaks in the hunting world (just like any writer).

I don't think this new law will help anyone get back on these big ranches without paying. Your right that this increase in tag price is small amount compared to what I pay to hunt out of state. That $200 though would have covered my part of the fuel for the trip.

I guess it bothers me that because everyone was pissed at the outfitters (so it seems) it will be taken out on the average non-resident like myself. I bet outfitters still have enough business to keep most of there leases.

If everyone killed a 190 inch muledeer $200 does not seem like alot but when you wrap that tag around a forked horns leg well to me that make it seem like alot of money.

Dink

When did I say that I get no breaks in hunting? But they aren't as constant or numerous as a lot of people would imagine.

In Montana I buy my tags just like anybody else--except for the fact that in over 30 years of applying I've never drawn a bighorn ram, moose or mountain goat tag, or even a bull elk tag for a trophy area.

I do get invited on maybe a couple of hunts a year paid for by various other people. But when I book hunts myself, its very rare to get any break just because I'm a writer. In fact I can count the times that's happened on the fingers of one hand, and have fingers left over.

I booked two outfitted hunts for myself last fall, one in Canada and one in another western state. On the Canadian hunt I did get a discount--because I have been on the outfitter's cancellation hunt list for several years. Anybody else could have gotten on the same list, and done the same hunt for the same price. On the U.S. hunt I paid full price just like everybody else.

Give it a rest. Montana has the right to do what they want and when they want. Everyone else gets the exact same rights. Hunting is for the most part (I mean drawing tags) over for 2010 and we will just have to see what 2011 brings. I make it a policy of mine, as many of the rest of you, to not cross a bridge until you get to it. The bridge is months away.

Might win the lottery and be able to buy the state....or not

There's a few overpriced ranches where it would require the lotto(or $20-30 million anyway).

Numbnuts, I never said I was happy about anything. But, I won't let the tag price stop me, if I can get away from work/family. I garantee you I don't talk about the price of any tag as much as you've bitched about a the price of a tag you haven't got, or the price YOU pay for a lease. If you won't miss the money, what the hell you bitching about?? Heck, maybe shoot a bit less and hunt a bit more...

Believe me, if I go to MT I will find a deer, that's the great thing about MT. Lots of deer.

Pointer you are truly showing what kind of guy you really are with words like numbnuts. I guess you have to say it on the internet because I am sure you would never say it face to face.

Its kinda like the $50 title application fee when your buying a 30 or 40 thousand dollar vehicle. It really don't mean much in the scheme of things but I am not going to pay that fee.

A fool and his money is soon parted but I guess you know that already.

Dink

I do get a bit aggravated when folks take what I say (or type) out of context.

You got me, I am an internet tough guy. I put on a Dog the Bounty Hunter wig and "tribal" arm band when I post. If I'm really feeling it, I'll blast some Guns N Roses through the HiFi to really get me pumped to give out some cyber b!tch slaps. Welcome to the Jungle BABY!!!!!!