I am thinking of applying to Montana next yeat for the Elk/Deer combo. Anyone know what the odds are?? I have never been out west and its time to go...I have a connection in Montana that why its my first choice.

Terrible hunting in Montana, try Wyoming!

Yep...nothing but dinks here...and Ive thinned them out considerably....

Make sure you bring your own sheep, they're funny that way.

At least Adair is....

Try here.

http://fwp.mt.gov/hunting/planahunt/drawingStatistics/

Might want to PM Rick Bin. I recall him giving a fair amount of advice for non-residents some time back. Maybe you could steer him toward your thread.


Travis

Pffft, tried to get him to hold a sheep once and he got all self righteous on me...


Travis

I hate that when he goes " holier than thou"....

I don't know what the theoretical odds are for drawing a NR big game combo tag, however for the last ten years friends (from Pennsylvania) hunt with me every two years.
They put in for tags each year.
Their success for tags has happen every other year.

There is a 'family application' if you have a family member living here, (it is suppose to increase your chances of success).
I have never used it.

After the new Initiative passed during the last election, I would think all the old drawing odds are out the window. If the outfitter tags added to the non resident tags and with the new increase in fees, draw odds should be better. If the new initiative is in place by next spring.


ddj

CBB: If I recall correctly the odds for the non-resident Big Game Combo drawing are 50/50 or 50%.
Be sure when you apply in 2,011 to suffer the additional indignity of BUYING the "bonus point" option.
This allows that if you are unsuccessful in 2,011 then you will get a "bonus point" and your name will then be enetered TWICE in the 2,012 drawing. That gives you about a 75% to 80% chance of success there in 2,012.
Best of luck to you in the drawings and in your Hunt.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Not sure anyone can predict the waves of I161 but know that the final price of out of state tags is still facing the political process.
This year roughly 11,000 out of state applicants faced a 50/50 chance.
Next year the total tags in the drawing is going to be closer to 15000. Leading to probably higher odds.
The caveat is that the outfitters now in order to break even on clients are going to over recruit applicants to the draw. This first year that is probably not going to happen nor with the price jump to $700 is that going to attract the usuals.
I suspect the chances of drawing will be pretty high next year.

I agree. I hope my name is on one of the tags again.


ddj

Thanks for all the info. I had no idea there was a change in place with outfitter/non-res tags. I'll be contacting Uncle Dave
soon to start figuring all this out. There will be two of us applying..

And about the sheep...I'll leave the knee high barn boots at home!!

CBB. Since two of you are applying make sure to apply as a party that will up your odds.

Just a question, does apply as a party up your odds? I thought the party recieved a party number so it is treated like a single application. However I was assuming this.


ddj

Don't see how a party ap's gonna help the odds.

Old rule of thumb was about a 50/50 on drawing first time.

I was also told it was about a 30% chance on drawing cold.

Me and a buddy drew three years in a row once, followed up by missing three in a row, even with the bonus points.

Crap shoot at best

dont feel bad, im a resident and if the odds say 33% i draw on the first and sixth year with bonus points....gotta find out who my FIL is bribing at FWP cause for him if the odds say 33% it means he draws a tag 6 out of 8 years.....

I had a note from MT FWP on this, and they told me:

"There will be more general licenses available for the drawing since the Outfitter Sponsored licenses have been abolished.

Montana Fish, Wildlife & Parks"

I will be in the draw next year looking for a deer license and a special area tag (I drew the deer license this year, but not the special tag).

jim

With Montana's non-resident price increase, Ones odds should be considerably better in 2011 than they were in 2010.

This will hurt the average guy from Minnesota or Washington who hunts BLM but another few hundred for a license for some who is paying $4000 for a guided hunt is not a big deal.


ddj

i was hunting from a cabin about 70 miles from my door, even taking out the drive to the cabin and back to town, i burned through more than the price change of the license in gas over 3 days.....up the resident licenses to what the nonresidents are paying and they would still be the cheapest part of my hunting season....

I guess there is always the option of moving here and making a meaningful contribution to a community and the state. If you'd like to visit you get to pay the price of being a visitor. Pretty cheap compared to the $1100 I paid for my WY elk tag.

Anyone know what a non-resident muledeer tag will be next year? I looked on the website but could not find it.

Dink

Dink $527 i believe, up from $328 this year......

Yep, $527.


ddj

I think the voters made a bad mistake in approving I-161, I hope the legislature can repeal it.

doubt the legislature will repeal it.....be stupid on their part.....more than likely for it to get changed a different plan would go before the voters.....this aint DC and most the legislature tends to live at home not in Helena....

Aren't the outfitters filing a lawsuit?


ddj

Not knowing the laws or anything..but the outfitters are the ones making hunting a "rich mans game" IMHO..
They control the average "hunt" they control the "outfitter tags"
blah blah blah..
I have 2000 to spend maybe 2300 at most!!
some rich prick may have 6000 at least

why should he have a better chance than me of getting a tag if we are both NON RES???

oh thats right its all about the mighty dollar.....

Personnally I think its a good change for "hunting" in general....

against what? the majority of Montanan's dont want it, atleast in the form it was in.....dont see where outfitter tags are a right.....same number of tags will still be available to nonresidents.....what are they gonna base the lawsuit on?

WOW. I don't know if I will be putting in or not. That couple hundred bucks would have paid my part of the fuel from here to montana. It kind of pisses me that they are stealing money just because they can.

Thanks for the info guys.

Dink

I think Montana wanted to recoup their lost revenue with the success of the Referendum. Will $200 keep NR's at home? Time will tell. $3+ gas? Food prices increased? The security of your job? For many of us, our annual "western pilgrimage" is so important that we do without elsewhere throughout the year.

peanut butter sandwiches.....i get very familiar with them when saving for something i want.....

I really like to hunt the west but at some point and time you have to say what is a deer worth? $200 is not alot of money in the scheme of things but then there is a stamp for this or a stamp for that. There is a [bleep] fee for everything. I get tired of paying fee's to hunt deer on federal ground. The more I think about it the more pissed off I get.

Anyone know what a antelope tags went to?

Dink

all i know is in 3 days of hunting this weekend i saw more out of state plates than Montana plates......blew my mind that someone with Florida plates was camped at the Bone Trail camp ground/boat ramp.....

Lot's of hunting pressure out there, it's tough.

A nice, big private ranch full of critters would be okay......(grin)

yes horrible hunting pressure.....you really dont want to hunt it, best find somewhere else.....

still cant believe a bunch of ppl were camped at Bone Trail.....did notice all of them had out of state plates.....suppose the locals are smart enough not to? know i sure in the hell wouldnt camp there....

When you were out towards Harper's did you guys see the 3 wolves that live down on Carpentar?

nope, just there briefly......didnt see much of anything but sharptails.....our buddy we yanked out of the mud saw a nice buck but missed him.....thats about it

You know, I also noticed way more sharptails than usual when we were gatherin' cows, nice to see. Couple bunches of Huns and even two Sage hens one day.

The only reason I asked was that an outfitter told me that last week when I was in Montana.


ddj

also had outfitters tell me my friends and i needed to join their association to take kids out fishing on our dime, free of charge to the kids and their families.....

Outfitters were having a little turf battle out in one area.

we invited them to come fishing with us.....they never showed.....had to figure out something else to do with the extra weights.....

What is the Montana law about a landowner hunting with out of stater's? We had a landowner not want to riding in the same vechicle with us so that it looked like he was guiding us when he was showing us his property boundries. The local outfitter would turn him in he thought.


ddj

Our Oregon locals complain about all the nonresidents in the woods during deer and elk seasons. Nonresidents are limited to only 5% of our available tags. Their obvious visibility is because they come and camp in the woods for the full season while the locals hunt out of the house. I've ridden with our LEO a few times and looked at the unit tag listings. I'd say that about half of our nonresident tags go to kids that come home to spend the season with their folks.

The non resident tag fees will go up, how is that going to help when many non residents will stay home.

i dont have a problem with out of state hunters at all.....i have a problem with slob hunters but they are just as likely to be residents.....

the vote meant the same amount of tags would be available to nonresidents......i really dont mind sharing where i hunt....i find out of state hunters are the same as the instate ones, if im willing to hike i can get away from 95% of them....

if he actually owns the property there shouldnt be an issue.....its his property and he should be able to do whatever he pleases.....wouldnt think it would go very far but ive got no first hand knowledge....

Word.


Besides, out of staters still won't find the good spots.......(grin)

Unintended consequences. NR tag $660 Outfitter sponsored tag $1500. The difference funds Block management. What will fund it now? Their will be an economic impact on the state, I don't think anyone knows what it will be. I don't think it will be positive for the state. Who knows?

NEW SECTION. Section 9. Hunting access account. (1) There is a hunting access account in the state special revenue fund. Funds deposited in this account may be used only for the purpose of funding any hunting access program established by law or by the department through administrative rule.
(2) The following funds must be deposited in the account:
(a) 25% of the fee for Class B-10 nonresident big game combination licenses pursuant to 87-2-505(1)(c) and 25% of the fee for Class B-11 nonresident deer combination licenses pursuant to 87-2-510(1)(b);
(b) 25% of the fee for hunting licenses issued to nonresident children of a resident pursuant to 87-2-514; and
(c) the hunting access enhancement fees assessed pursuant to 87-2-202(3)(c) and (3)(d).
(3) Any interest or income earned on the account must be deposited in the account.



i would have voted to get rid of the outfitter licenses if it meant i had to pay more to fund the Block Management program.....the issue at hand was not out of state hunters and if someone wants to put through a change to it that drops the nonresident cost some and ups the resident costs some ive got no problem with that.....

From what I saw on Montanas F&W home page non res big game combo is uo to almos 900... A few years ago I think it was only 550..
Guess I better get out there before its 2000!

I come to Montana to hunt with my cousin, and I park my rig with California plates at his place and we hunt with his. So I guess we look like locals with his MT plates. I am not sure if I will keep applying for a non-resident tag, it depends on the balance in the hunt fund when it is time to buy the Montana application.

jim

The way I read the regs they will go from $328 to $528. This is what my group is interested in on a ranch we have an invite for.
Is a 110 lb. pronghorn with 40 lbs of de-boned meat worth it?
It could be with a good groups of guys, some spot and stocking and respectable horns.

I think Montana made a mistake by raising the price. 5000+ NR tags became available on the "open market" so to speak. That opened up more tags for the NR's. Raising them $200 puts the damper on the whole lot of them. Time will tell.

I think the state thought by increasing the tag fees that the numbers of applicants will be less thus allowing the draw success to be higher. Higher draw rates will help the outfitters plan their hunts. In the end everyone is happy except for the "average nonresident hunter" who can't justify $528 for a deer tag or $928 for an elk.


ddj

add up all your costs to hunt.....i hunt close to home and when all is said and done it would be cheaper to buy prime rib than eat venison.....only way venison is cheap is if yah can walk out your back door and drop one in your yard.....

When you're not a resident you deal with whatever the state that you'd like to visit says is fair. You get no say in the matter because you live somewhere else. I'm glad to see the outfitters assn. and NR landowners that abused the system being forced to enter the draw. MT tags are still cheap - particularly so if you come from a state that has limited hunting opportunities

when all is said and done last weekend for my long weekend of hunting i prolly dropped close to $400 to cruise the country side and look at critters and not chamber a round....to hunt an area that starts 60 miles from my door....thats without factoring in the cost of the gun and rounds i shoot year round to stay in practice....for 3 days of hunting....will do the same over Thanksgiving weekend if it aint to wet to get out where i hunt....most years we hunt atleast 4 long weekends and not 2 but my back surgery screwed things up this year....some years its 6 weekends....

as i said charge me nonresident rates and the tags are still the cheapest part of my hunting......if i was hunting for meat i would shoot whitetail off a friends haystack 7 miles from home......for what i spend in gas alone to chase mule deer i could by a full beef and half a ranch raised bison cut how i want....

Could not have said it any better myself. Good job.

I hunted MT this week and Will be next year as well....
A two hundred dollar increase is peanuts in the scheme of things. Especially so given the redundant gear and guns that most guys needlessly buy.
I am neutral on 161, but if anything the effect on me is positive, given my odds go up. I hunted with an outfitter this year, but always apply for my own tags
I would be happy if the increased the tags a bit more to keep the number of out of staters low and decrease the hunting pressure a bit.

Reading all of this one thing becomes very clear....a lot of democrats in Montana. A democrat is a person who wants everything at someone else expense.

They want to hunt but the out of state "RICH" people can pay for our FWP (over 10% of the total budget is from non res big game license alone), I want a place to hunt and because my fellow Montana land owners want their cut (Block Management) we will have the non res's pay for that too. (hunted on a BM ranch this year, do it your self, I am a poor "RICH non res" and the rancher told me that he has aprox 400 to 500 people sign in on his land alone each year. Of that a handful at best were non res hunters. I was there a week and only 3 other non res for that week.)

Can't allow the outfitters to make a dollar, and now that we have them on the ropes lets stomp on them. Seems to me they are just working people too. Overall according to Great Falls newspaper non res outfitter hunting has been on the decline with prices falling and license counts declining. The economy sucks and Montana wants to kill the outfitting business. Doesn't seem like a good idea.

I'll never forget the line from the Billings newspaper, a few years ago (non res bashing in Montana has been an ongoing sport...not much entertainment out their you know) when they described non res hunters as "wealth non resident hunters" no distinction that I can remember from do it yourselfers and outfitters hunters. If you have 2 nickels to rub together and you enjoy hunting you must be wealth.

And for the one guy who wrote that non res have no choice they just have to pay what the states says, oh yes they do, don't go at all. One year of non res boycotting Montana and the FWP would be bankrupt. This isn't going to happen however, the NFO tried that back in the 60's with pig farmers to raise the price of pork.

Montana hunters like to bash the people who have managed to make a few dollars more, just like Nancy P and the president, Democrates!

I hope you all remember that the folks with money always get to do what they want to do and if you stop them in won't make things for you any better.

Montana has serious issues with their res, non-res, outfitter access rules. I just wish they could get the politics and the democrates, self serving voters, out of the equation so the professionals, FWP personnel could manage the balance.

nah looks like your reading comprehension sucks.......

#1 the bill wasnt about out of state hunters, it was about outfitters and the fact they chose to piss off a bunch of Montanans.....

#2 i said i woulda voted to get rid of the outfitter sponsored tags if it raised the cost of the tags i buy, i save money all year to spend it like a drunken sailor for 6 weeks out of the year to chase mule deer and speed goats and if im lucky elk.....some more money out of my pocket to buy the tags dont bug me......

#3 when planning to go out of state i dont b!tch bout having to pay sales tax when i dont at home or any of that bullchit i say yes sir and write out the [bleep] check.....im looking at dropping serious cash in a few years to shoot critters in Australia i aint b!tching on the cash i plan to lay out there, i aint gonna b!tch bout the cost when i finally hunt Texas...ill just write out the [bleep] check or not go....

I didnt think I was b!tching about the cost..I'll pay it..
I should have been out to Montana by now. But life, kids have taken up my time and money so far..I have enough cash to enjoy life and pay the bills..But I am far from rich..

Its not so much about the money but about the fact that they are stealing it.

I have hunted montana several times and drove from one end of the state to the other almost. I really like it there but a deer tag is not worth $527.

Montana recieves its share of federal money that comes from all us and now because I don't live there I have to pay $500 for a deer tag. I just don't know if I will pay it. I don't mind paying extra for a tag but at some point it becomes stealing.

Dink

i aint evenly mildly well off....as i said i save year round for my hunting season cause i dont make alot either and will put in 40 hours in 3 days so i can spend the next 4 hunting....a $200 increase wouldnt phase me cause ill cut out a few days of hunting to save on what i would spend on gas to make up the difference.....ive eaten alot of peanut butter sandwiches to squirrel away cash for a gun or more gas money for hunting.....

unless your a farmer or rancher with the critters on your land it aint that cheap to seriously hunt mule deer for residents either on public land.....major reason my wife and i choose to live here is for chasing critters in October and November.....

What does a non-resident Elk/Deer combo tag cost everywhere else?

I was born and raised in Montana and now live in Utah. Whatever its faults, Montana still has much better deer hunting opportunities for the average resident/non-resident than Utah. Our season this year in the northern region was 3 DAYS!!!

I don't like the price increase but it really is insignificant in the scheme of things. I'd rather spend the extra $200 for the chance to hunt whitetails and mule deer during the rut than dropping it on some "must have" gadget.

You've got to pay to play and I plan on playing.

Brian

IMO..its not the cost of the tag...its part of the cost of the hunt.....
Hell an Iowa buck and doe tag cost a friend of mine almost 700..

thats just it....i was hunting public land this weekend that was crawling with hunters, from the road i still saw over 150 mule deer.....ild pay $500 for them odds.....

Some of you guys could squeeze blood from a turnip, no doubt.
Dont like MT tag prices? Its pretty easy...spend your money elsewhere.
My money will continue going to MT and for more than a few reasons.

Guess it must get expensive hunting out of the pickup all day....(laughin'!)

Gotta give you chit Sheridan.........(grin)


I spent about $30 in gas to drive out and back the one day I actually got to go mule deer hunting(public land). Maybe $20 the day Rancho and I went lope hunting.
Might have went through a $40 bill the day Lynnard and I drove around and drank beer. I got the beer, he bought the fuel, worked out pretty well!

I don't think it is going to change the amount of hunters, just the economic status of the out of state hunters. When Iowa started giving Nonresident tags we also started to have private leasing and actually had less resident opportunities. I will hunt Montana every chance I get because I'm not going to put a price on memories. My last Montana hunt will live with me forever.


ddj

Why can people not understand you are not paying to hunt on public land, you are paying to hunt animals that are owned/managed by each state.

ddj, if I remember correctly you took one helluva a nice whitetail!

lol no worries keep in mind we are toting around my wifes 90 year old father.....plus been out there enough we got our hot spots we like to check out and dont you usually got Fred with yah over north the lake?.....i dont got a partner that can pack my arse around, my gas bill is high but its cheaper than keeping an alcoholic horse supplied in whiskey

on second thought.....will he take beer instead? if Fred is willing to work for beer i would like to borrow him......

Skip is 90? Old bastid!


Yeah, Fred only burns a couple dollars a day but trying to hunt big deer off a horse sucks!
Might work better during the rut but Fred and company are always back home by then. I'll still take my own feet anyday out there deer hunting, sneaky on a horse just does not work.

hell i just want him to drag the [bleep] out of whatever hell hole i shoot one in......Skips half mile of rope only goes so far.....

ive hunted and went rock climbing behind the Burke Ranch after a buck, been down in Cabin and down off the side of Timber.....we do walk plenty

3 or 4 years ago I shot a buck down in the bottom of a steep little coulee. Dad dropped a loop around it's neck and proceeded to drag it out. Worked great until he hit the steep part of the pull, cinch was a little loose and the horse almost pulled the saddle right off!

Saddle was resting on the ass end of the brown horse by the time he whoa'd up. Brother and I were trying not to laugh.....(grin)


Packed another one out 2 years ago that was about 4 miles from the truck. Had another minor rodeo...
Bone 'em and backpack is way easier.....(grin)

Exactly and I will continue to hunt Montana every chance I get but I do believe there is a point at which the states can increase tag fees to much. 10 years ago as a college student, I never would have been able to afford a Montana hunt. I would prefer that hunting opportunities would increase rather than decrease for the health of our sport.


ddj

to true but harder on the knees...at the moment im stuck with short walks cause Skip cant do long ones and doesnt want to sit and wait for us to do them......also why i havent got an elk yet.....he cant hunt by himself so i cant disappear and head for the mountains given i havent been able to pull a bull tag for the Pines.....

most hunters dont get far from the vehicles anyway.....so i aint that far off in my figuring, run across far more driving the hills than walking and when we walk we almost never run into anyone, in 6 weekends of hunting can usually count on one hand the number of ppl i find more than a half mile off road.....ive gone way back on 6th and found only one set of tracks that was from a person other than my wife and i.....

Get that state owned game off of my federal land.

The game is not what I was really refering to. I was refering to all the paved roads that the feds pay for, bridges, overpasses, ect. that the people of montana could not afford to have done due to there population or lack there of. I don't mind paying for the roads but think its pretty chitty that they way they repay the non-residents is with $500 deer tag.

Dink

This is where it gets tricky.

And my federal money go's to your state so I guess were even

Deer tag here is $225.

There are probaly more people that live in st.louis county and city than in the entire state of montana. Like I said I don't mind paying extra for a deer tag but over $500 is wrong. I don't think montana could keep there roads, schools and other infrastructure if it was not for the help of federal money that we all pay into. Due to population alone more money has to come from non-residents than residents to keep that infrastructure.

If the game is stated owned get it off of federal land. I might want to come see some bushes or something and I don't want those valuable deer eating the chit.

I am really pissed about tags going up that much. There were five us going muledeer hunting next year (if we could get a tag) and now two of those guys are out and I am undecided. By the time we pay for fuel, hotel rooms and trespass fee each deer will cost about $2500. It just pisses me that the state thinks the need to make a extra $200 per person.

Dink

Dink, do any of the mule deer you might hunt drink from a stock dam?

And if you're hunting Federal land, why the hell are you paying a trepass fee?

Dink,

If its only a couple hundred each that is keeping your buddy's out skip the trespass fee and hunt block, BLM, state and other fed lands.

We have been hunting a private ranch that has federal ground around it. We have thought about skipping the trespass fee and just hunting public ground. It might be hard to find 5 bucks to shoot on public ground in 5 days of hunting.

Its not so much the $200 as it seems everytime we turn around there is a fee for this or that. It gets old paying $10 here and $20 there for stupid chit the state dreams up. I know everyone is right that someday that $200 won't matter but telling everyone about killing a muledeer will matter.

I don't think $328 was unreasonable for a deer tag but $527 just makes me fighting mad. Theres only two options pay it or don't go. I just have not made up mind if its worth it.

Dink

Anyone know how much non-res antelope tags will be next season? Monashee

I just got done lookign at the application deadline on the Montana home page..It says Jan 4 2010....Will that be about the same for 2011???

and the feds take the money for the timber, mineral and grazing rights to the federal land.......not to mention give us money for the reservation land the state cant collect taxes on......only right they send us back more than the citizens pay in.....dont like it? let us kick the feds out of the state and we wont take the money from them.....

unless we are talking whitetail, even with private ground five good mule deer bucks in 5 days is a rough thing to do.....even getting on private land i could prolly do a nice buck and a few dinks in 5 days but would require shooting what i saw and not being picky.....

the tags aint a trespass fee, anyone is free to use the federal lands when they please, you can come hike them in the summer aswell without paying anything....the tags are for state managed animals....in other words the ppl having to live with the animals all year round get to call the shots on how they get managed.....i honestly dont give a rip if the out of state tags are $50 and my tags go up to make up the difference.....your tags being $50 dont hurt my odds they hurt yours.....make nonresident tags the same price as resident, your the one thats only gonna be hunting mule deer here every 15 or 20 years, ill still be hunting them every year whatever the cost is.....

And now DINK has illustrated why many people dislike NR hunters. You can't go to someone else's home state with a feeling of entitlement and expect a warm reception. All the talk of federal lands and tax dollars won't make you any friends here or anywhere else. You're a guest in another state, have some manners. Most of us could make a great deal more money if we lived in another state but we choose to live in MT. Speaking for myself, I put up with the low wages because I get to enjoy living in the last best place in the lower 48. I can walk out my front door and be hunting in some of the best country on the planet. If you'd like to have the same nobody is stopping you from packing your kit and heading west - I hear Bozeman is the place to go.

the entire reason we didnt uproot and head east when the wife was offered a very lucrative job with a national paper was cause we like fishing and hunting northeast Montana for more than one or two weekends a year......money aint everything.....

I don't mind out of state hunters at all. However I do get tired of hearing the public land argument. We all got to pay to play. Considering that all game animals belong to their respective states I find it funny that if a western guy wanted to hunt back east that most of the public game is found on private ground. Not only would we have to buy tags but I'm willing to bet that our trespass fee would trump what most guys pay to hunt the western states on a DIY level of some quality.

I rarely hear anyone dogging on WY or MT much so I've taken an interest in this thread. I live here in CO where anybody and their dog has an opportunity to hunt and lower tag prices. IF CO so much as changes a tag fee by a few bucks we get hit hard with heavy criticism. Considering most hunters in this state get at most 5-9 days to hunt with a rifle or 1 month for archery per species per year while most that do the complaining have 3-4 months at home in their own state, its laughable to me to call us residents selfish. I know WY and MT have different regs.

I really agree with ranger1 and rattler when it comes to choosing to stay somewhere you like versus moving somewhere you don't to make more money. Its a sacrifice on our part to hunt and fish in these excellent places.

Kelk,
Thanks for chiming in. Montana's general season is 36 days long.
The elk tag comes with deer and upland game, and we are still cheaper than most states around us according to this opinion piece-http://www.mtstandard.com/news/opinion/columnists/article_ebf45746-52f8-11df-927d-001cc4c03286.html?mode=story

+1000

I'd love to have a 36 day season. Instead we've got to plan to get it done in 5-9 days with a rifle in hand. We've got 4 rifle seasons, plus MZ, Plus Archery and numerous late season cow only. There are exceptions and leftover licenses but for the most part its 1 species per year except for doe's and cows. Once you hold an antlered tag for any species you cannot hold another one in the same year. I don't know if MT or WY are different in that regards.

Our fee's are as follows for Non Residents.
$544 for a bull tag.
$354 for a cow tag.
$329 for a deer tag.
$56 for a small game tag.

Looking at MT's fee, I'd think you have phenomenal value. Been trying to get up that way myself sometime to hunt. Wy too.

I do have a bud that comes out to elk hunt with us every year from WI. His trip total including tags, travel, from door to door is $1500. I'd think that's easily attainable for most folks.

If I want to hunt WI with him, it'll cost me $160 for the license but then I'd have to come up with $2000 plus travel expenses to get onto their lease.

you can hold tags for all antlered and horned species from speed goats to both deer to elk and moose to mountain goats and bighorn if your lucky enough to pull the tags for all of them in one year but i doubt anyone has done that....this year i have tags for a over the counter buck(either mule deer or whitetail, licence is good for both) a special draw speed goat tag and the normal elk tag which isnt good for the special draw area i hunt but i did put in for a bull elk in that area but im one of about 350 ppl competing for 10 tags....

I moved to MT, many yrs. back, to enjoy the fine hunting. I hunted MT as a NR for many yrs. prior to moving here. The prices to hunt have continually increased, in all states mind you. I must say that the NR $$ do bring in lots of revenue and some added jobs to MT. The increase of tag $$ is but a small price to pay in the large scheme of hunting. It does not mean that MT regards the NR as merely a revenue enhancement scheme. There is plenty of public ground to hunt here. For all to hunt I must ad. When I lived on the east coast I hunted sea ducks, puddle ducks and geese during the fall/winter season. Sea duck hunting has turned into a mostly outfitter sponsored hunt. I had seen this coming! BTW, getting permission to hunt waterfowl on private property on the east coast is very difficult. Let alone hunting big game on private property. Let's face it. If you want to hunt, you are going to have to pay to do so. I do not necessarily agree with it. But, I am aware that this is the norm these days. Now that I live in NW MT I enjoy some fairly good hunting. The waterfowl hunting is good to excellent. The upland game is good to excellent. The big game hunting is great! Plan ahead for your hunting goals. It will not get any better than it is now. Let's face it. The politicians, crooks IMHO, will increase fees exponentially as time goes. MT FWP are doing the best they can with what $$ they are allotted and private land owners are the ones who pay the taxes on the land they own. Both entities have worked well together in the past to make hunting in MT a success. We welcome NR hunters, fishermen, tourist and all. Come enjoy what we enjoy. But, we too must pay as all. MTG

Just want to make sure I didn't confuse anybody so I wanted to clarify.

What I meant is that a resident here can hold 1 bull tag and 1 buck tag, but no matter how many additional buck/bull tags end up on the leftover list, we can only hold one a year.

In MT or WY can you kill more than one buck/bull a year?

I look at hunting out of state in this way. CO is my home and when I leave this state I'm entering someone else's home. I therefore respect the fact that I need to play by their rules and I completely respect that. I am a guest of that state after all.

Montana's increase really shouldn't come as any surprise. They are inline with Idaho and Wyoming now. They have been the "value" hunting spot of West for years. I'm not real happy about the increase, but I am more unhappy about the elimination of outfitters tags. Lots of Montanan's relied on those guarantee tags for hunters coming in. I own a home in Montana, pay property taxes, support the local school programs, donated $$ to the street projects in the community. I have become friends with alot of the ranchers and outfitters in the area over the years and know the new bill hurt some of them. BTW, I do put in for the draw and pay Non-Res fees every year...just wanted to make that clear. The extra $200 doesn't bother me enough to not apply, hell I save that much on the cheaper priced fuel there vs. Washington's prices.

gotcha, i misunderstood...think that rule applies here aswell as ive not heard of anyone through any special drawing wind up with a second buck or bull tag....however FWP will damn near beg yah to take more doe tags for alot of areas...think they are willing to sell me up to 6 but i dont like doing that much butchering when yah figure at the moment there are already 3 hunters in the house.....

Our fee's are as follows for Non Residents.
$544 for a bull tag. (MT2010 prices) $643 Elk A comes with deer A and upland game and fishing.
$354 for a cow tag. MT 2nd cow tag $278
$329 for a deer tag. MT $343 Deer A comes with upland game and fishing.
$56 for a small game tag. Upland game-$110

A general elk tag lets you hunt bull elk where ever there is not a specific permit required. A few districts limit to spike only or cow only. Each district has specific game management rules. The general DeerA is similar. Usually you can shoot either species either sex deer. Some districts limit doe harvests for management reasons. I can't think of any special areas that allow for second bull or buck if it happened it would be a special management issue limited if ever.
My brothers generally hunt the doe surplus non-resident tags which are $75.

So we have heard from Utah and Colorado, we know Idaho raised their tags last year and I know Wyoming did away with guaranteed tags.

I guess I'll put in my two cents worth,I come to Montana to hunt on my own land most years.

I leased the place to an outfitter in exchange for a tag every year.

Now I'll have to try to draw a tag just like every other nonresident.

I'll miss coming every year and it doesn't seem fair that I'll be paying property taxes on land that I can't hunt.

I bought the place for hunting and I'm wondering if it's now worth less than I paid for it because it is less valuable to a nonresident buyer like me.

I'm still tryin to figure it all out. I really wonder if the referendum was really intended to stop guys like me from coming to hunt ,or if I am just the victim of unintended consequences.

I leave for Montana this afternoon,and I hope it's not my last trip for a while.

for the record, as a resident, ive got no problem with a nonresident land owner getting a guaranteed land owner tag to hunt their own property....it is after all your property....

Why does a resident feel he is entitled to hunt deer on federal ground for a fraction of what it cost a non-resident? By working in a populated area I may or may not make more money but if I make more money I pay more taxes that pay's for the federal land. Why should a resident get to deer hunt for $16 and I have to pay $527? If I have already paid more taxes and now I get to pay a premium to hunt deer on public ground that I have already paid a larger portion for than a resident has.

Why does the game and fish think I need to fiance them? I have a game and fish derpartment that I am fiancing here.

I could move to montana (and hope both of my boys do) but then I would paying less taxes than I do now.

Like I said I don't paying extra for a tag but this is just wrong.

Dink

we dont pay a trespass fee to hunt the federal ground and neither do you......the ground is free to use by anyone from anywhere year round not just during hunting season.....the tag is for animals managed by the state, the feds aint the ones doing the managing of deer on federal land, they leave it to the state....

and to be perfectly frank we would rather the feds turn the federal land over to the state and they keep their money....federal land is what got us the [bleep] wolves.....

+1 Sheridan...BIG TIME...

Rattler,

I'd even add that maybe he ought to stop hassling us western guys and start leaning on the Feds to establish more public land in his own state.

I took away from his post that he feels he's paying for his own G&F and yours too. I'm thinking he probably forgot about all the NR's that fund his G&F. To me its a classic case of him wanting his cake and eating it too.

BTW, wish the feds would leave CO too and take their hand picked Game Commissioners with them. We really need the CDOW folks who actually work in game management in charge and not a bunch of high powered execs hand picked by the gov........

his federal taxes pay for the land....i dont argue that, however the state tags pay for the deer and elk.....outside national parks or federally protected species the feds dont have jack chit to do with game populations on federal land......

Except
That many of the federal lands were purchased or retained for specific purposes that were not hunting.
The national grasslands were expressly created for grazing yet people bitch about the grazing.
School trust was created to benefit schools not hunting.
It is much more complicated than I pay taxes so I should get to hunt public land for free.

yep......find it funny that they think if the management on the game is turned over to the feds that his tags will get cheaper.....i think ive come across federal wildlife officials twice in over a decade of hunting federal land and they were checking on black footed ferrets they turned loose in a prairie dog town on federal land....see the state guys, or atleast their trucks most weekends even outside hunting seasons....

Dink, perhaps you would do well to move to MT. Then you can earn lower wages, pay lower taxes and hunt the very abundant public land or your land indeed. You will still have to pay for a School Trust Land access fee as we do. BTW Dink. You are welcome here in MT. Another resident tax payer, besides your land taxes, would bolster the MT economy. Have you heard? Montana is 1 of 2 states that has a surplus in their coffers. If we, MT residents, hunt other states we pay the going NR fees as all NR do. It is not a matter of MT being selfish. The fact is that all states are increasing NR fees. Get use to it. It's not going away. BTW, I pay taxes on two pieces of MT property. One is my residence, the other is in the "Breaks Country". Both are taxed. I don't get a property guaranteed tag each year as you have in the past. It would be great to get an elk "A" tag to hunt in this zone. But, like all I have to put in for the draw as all do. Plus, when I do not draw, haven't for 6 yrs. now, I still have to pay the county property taxes. We are both MT land owners. You have had the good fortune to get the tag you wanted thru an outfitter guaranteed tag in the past. I have not! Now you cry foul! I don't get it!

MTGunner I am not a land owner in montana. I don't mind paying extra for a tag being a non-resident. I have a problem with the game and fish (or whom ever) thinking that because I am a non-resident that they can rape every last nickel from me because I can't cast a vote in montana.


I know you guys pay taxes just like I do but if there was no federal ground the state would not have any game there to manage.

I do not think that the feds should manage anything but if the ground was bought and taken care of with everyones tax money why should I have to pay 33 times as much for a tag. Thats crap in my opinion.

Dink

hunt deer in Texas.....major cost aint the tag its getting on land.....here you get the land for nothing and get a tag for less than a lease in Texas.....

once again your taxes paid for the land....the tags pay for the animals....your taxes aint paying for the animals....your getting what you pay for.....you can come up here and be on federal ground and not pay the state a dime other than whatever state taxes are on the gas you buy at the gas station....you really miss the whole point....the state aint charging you a dime for hunting on federal land, your paying the state for the critter that is being managed by the state no matter where it chooses to live....

critters move on and off private, federal and state lands.....why should you get a break to hunt critters on federal land that might spend most the year on state land or private?

Exactly how do you think these federal lands were created. They rarely were purchased, but rather retained at the time of statehood.



Ummm really? So the concept that wildlife being public whether on Federal, State or private ground is completely lost on you?

Will the application deadlines stay the same for 2011???

will the application deadlines stay the same for 2011???

sorry I posted that twice..
to hopefully get a response this time!!! LOL!

CBB would assume so, an email to FWP is usually answered within a week, sometimes alot faster.....

Dink, I stand corrected thinking that you were a land owner and had access to a property owner tag. I believe the point is that the state manages the wildlife. The state has authority of what the fees are. I too want the Feds to stay out of the states interest/business. That way MT,WY and Idaho could regulate wolves. But, I know this is not going to happen. Public land is owned by the public of whom we are. But, none the less, the state regulates, manages, sets fees, governs state interest regarding wildlife issues. The Fed does have guidelines, set by the U.S.F.&W., which each state must adhere to. All in all, if the fees are not to your liking I would plan otherwise. Perhaps you would be more comfortable hunting Texas. Be prepared to pay big $$ for access. Wyoming has lots of big game and vast amounts of public land. There are many alternatives. MTG

it was ruraldoc with the land......and as i said i dont have a problem with a nonresident land owner that has a certain amount of land getting a special deer tag to hunt his own property at a similar price to a resident cause they are also paying property tax in the state for the land, nor necessarily a problem for a similar elk tag if they live in one of the open areas....its their property, they are paying taxes to the state...

Rattler I think the only thing about hunting deer on public land in texas is you have to be drawn to hunt there (I could be wrong about that). If you talking about lease prices that is private property which no federal tax money was used in the purchase/upkeep of the property.

It really does not matter how the federal lands were created. They use federal tax money, that we all pay, to purchase/upkeep the land.

If wildlife was public then wouldn't we all pay the same for a tag?

If montana thinks this $200 surcharge is such a good idea how about raising residence tags by $200? I bet there would be some bitching and moaning then.....

Dink

I think you should just go to a different western state that charges the same for residents and NR alike. I can tell that it bothers you to think that the residents of MT own the game within our state so maybe you'd like to go hunt a state where the outfitters basically own the game. All of your gripes are easily fixed by simply looking elsewhere for a place to hunt.

I for one have no problem with Montana raising the costs of NR licences.I'm thankful that I have the chance to draw a tag and hunt there at all.In British Columbia Non Residents MUST hunt with an outfitter,in other words I can't invite any of you boys up for a big game hunt.Almost all land in BC is crown land(belongs to us taxpayers!),so it's a sweetheart deal for the outfitters,the Government bends over backwards for them.That's why we've been watching this Proposition closely.I hope to be able to hunt speed goats in Montana again,but if I can't afford the tag,so be it.There's lots of things I can't afford,but it's never stopped me from hunting! Monashee.

how bout we raise the resident tags to $200? wouldnt need out of state hunters to fund a damn thing and they can stay home and b!tch about why they cant hunt Montana at all....

once again the STATE is paying for the animals, counting heads, setting quotas and the like....only [bleep] thing the feds do around here is make sure those with grazing leases arent putting more cattle on the land they they are supposed to, they dont give a rip about the deer or elk.....they just care the ground looks ok....its gotta look a certain way and they dont give a chit if there is 1 deer there or 100....

once again you ARE NOT paying to access federal land, your paying to hunt Montana resident owned animals...you wanna come out here and camp and watch wildlife on federal land, your welcome to come up and not pay us a dime.....you wanna shoot animals that belong to the residents of Montana you can pay the damn money.....the animals aint federally owned....

NR landowners are still NR. They can enter the draw like all of the other NR. Ruraldoc seems like a great guy, doesn't change the fact that he is the resident of another state. Whether he owns a square foot or a township, he still shouldn't have resident priviledges in another state.

dont bug me if he is just hunting his land he is paying taxes on....if he is paying property tax on 200 acres or whatever he is funding the local school and the like....dont see why he should be able to hunt his property or atleast be guaranteed a tag in his name at the NR price for deer or elk if he happens to fall in one of the open areas to hunt his own land....

"In 1978, the Supreme Court favored the states when it ruled that Montana could charge nonresident elk hunters higher fees than residents. Montana argued in Baldwin v. Fish and Game Commission that nonresidents require more enforcement effort (because they don�t know the landscape as well) and that residents pay through taxes for infrastructure such as roads, fire control, and search-and-rescue efforts that nonresidents aren�t funding."
An interesting read- http://fwp.mt.gov/mtoutdoors/HTML/articles/2005/WhoCallsShots.htm

Seems like a very good reason to do away with the guaranteed tags. But like you Rattler I don't object to the legislature reducing the non-res prices and raising resident tags. Probably otta raise a $1 to avoid litigation.

I would pay a bit more as a resident. As long as I get to hunt. I will pay the going fees in other states as long as I get to hunt there also. How loud would NR howl if the state of MT raised the residents fees and reduced the amount of NR tags available? At what point do NR realize that MT has the authority and good will to regulate as necessary? I'm not against NR hunting in MT. I am against those that would regulate MT interests from another state. MTG

We all pay to play in MT.
Either you live here and make half what you are worth, or you come here to recreate and pay extra for the privilege.
If MT is too expensive, I hear Colorado is cheaper with much better hunting.....

Not just MT.

I fish Massachusetts, Vermont, New Hampshire, and Montana. Also hunt N.H., MA., and Montana.

I bow hunt 5 minutes from my house, 10 miles from the center of Boston.

Take a 10-14 day trip to Montana every Oct/Nov to visit family and hunt. Don't always draw a tag as a N.R., but always involved. Cooking, being with the Grand children, watching, learning, teaching.

Hunt/fish N.H. because I was born there, and it's close.

We all pay to play.

Enjoy it while you can, where you can, and be happy you can.

I agree with this 100%....Even though I contribute to my community there, I don't expect the same priveleges as a resident...until I am one someday. Either you are a resident or non resident...pretty much cut and dry.

Rattler if think residents could fund the game and fish by charging you $216 for a tag I think you would be wrong.

I am sure by raising tag prices this is just a test to see if non-residents will still pay and I think most will. Wanna guess who they are going to test next by raising the tag prices?

Dink

works by volume.....more resident hunters than non.....

Dink, taxes and fees rarely decrease. By volume they can be mitigated. Your insistence that by raising the tag fees it is a slap in the face to NR is unfounded. The citizens of MT voted to change the structure. Whether you or any other NR agrees with this is a non issue. We, MT citizens, are not attempting to regulate/legislate your states wildlife issues. Why do you insist on doing so for MT? If this does not fit your requirements then perhaps you should find other hunting venues. Otherwise, move to the great state of Montana. Pay taxes here. Contribute to our wonderful community. Found a grass roots organisation to change what you deem is unfair to nonresidents. What think you? MTG

Mt I hunt all the states in the west. The guys (5 of us) were going to put in for muledeer tags this year but I think we are either going to cash in our points in wyoming or go to texas.

My state charges $225 for a any deer tag (buck) and I think $7 apiece for all the doe tags you want to buy. I do not think this unreasonable. I did not think that Montana's $328 for a muledeer tag was out of line. Even after we bought all the other stamps/tags we would have had about $350 in the tag. Even the $75 for a doe tag was not all that bad.

The money on motels,food,and fuel adds up to quite abit of money why we are there. Then we have always paid the tresspass fee for the ranch which is almost 8k to 10k. I am going to guess the ranch owner spends most of the money in montana. Now the state of montana wants a addtional 1k (between the 5 of us). I say [bleep] that.

I am sure the state of montana will not really miss our money in the scheme of things and probaly someone will take our place.

As of right now I think we are going to pass on hunting in montana and I hope alot of other guys tell them to take there $200 increase and shove it. Won't happen but I can dream. I might change my mind when its time to apply but I doubt it.

The people of montana voted. It does not mean we have to spend our money there.

Dink

Wow I really open up the proverbial can o' worms here didnt I......

no worries, far from a new argument.....

damn ppl spend $10K in trespass fees to hunt private land for deer? [bleep] me i need to buy a chunk of land......hell i can get on some decent private land for free and choose to hunt public.....to chase elk i can understand, hell i would shell out some cash to chase one of them on private ground but mule deer? [bleep] me.....think im gonna shut up now before more ppl start hunting where i do.....

LOL...Rattler we would rather not pay either but when only have five days to hunt we try to make the most of it. I think we spent about $800 in fuel alone last year out there and back. You have to remember to hunt five days is a nine day trip for us.

Dink

i saw 150 head in 3 days.....just [bleep] around showing a guy thats never set foot in eastern Montana around....im just healing up from a year of back problems(finally had surgery in Sept) and ive lost more muscle mass in the last year than i care to admit to and didnt do any walking...didnt see any great bucks but a buddy of mine that did some walking back into some of our spots did....

this is a serious question that aint loaded, what kind of bucks are you and your buddies getting on for that kind of money?.....

[bleep], I'll come out next year and you show me 150 mulies in 3 days and I have a new BFF!!!!!

When times were better for Mule deer, he coulda showed you that many in a "lite" morning....

ive had an open invitation to most 'fire members....you need to figure most those were does and dink bucks.....and last weekend we were road hunting and not seriously hunting and covered a huge area.....good bucks usually require alot of miles under your boots and a bit of luck.....i can pretty well guarantee a chance at does and dinks if the weather cooperates but good bucks alot of it is out of my hands....if it rains you cant get to them.....

Don't tempt me with dinks......

i coulda shot a fork that was shorter than his ears.....and a 3 that was barely above

[bleep]!! Guess I shoulda applied sooner in life..But Oh well, I'm 31 and in good shape theres no better time than now!

Rattler we have not hunted muledeer on this ranch but have antelope hunted it a couple times. I would say the averag buck was 22-24 inch 4 pont if you looked hard enough. They did have pics of some 170-180 inch deer that other hunters had taken but we did not see any.

Dink

gotcha

Dink, if you are paying that much $$ to hunt a private ranch, what is the problem with the increased tag fee? You seem to be tossing around a lot of $$ to hunt. Me thinks your case is full of holes. Somehow this all doesn't figure. Maybe it's just me. I hunt hard on my small piece of land and hunt public land in the breaks country. I see lost of mulies, wt and elk. Altho', I haven't drawn an elk tag for this zone for many yrs. But, now with the extra tags available perhaps I will draw another coveted elk tag for this zone. BTW, I have seen many a good mulie buck, 4 point and better, and not taken them. Public land to boot. I personally don't think MT will miss your $$ and poor attitude. MTG

thats kinda what lent to my reaction.....hunts fed land and pays $10K to trespass but just for goats......he could do it without the trespass fee and hunt federal ground free of charge.....

All 5 of em' could go on an outfitted goat hunt for less than $10k!!! I bet the guy that owns that place gets a good chuckle out of the MO boys that lease his goat hunting for $10k.

First off goat hunting does not cost that much. Its alot cheaper. Its only 5k for all of us. Those prices do include a place to stay and meals. By the time we paid for a motel and bought food for the week it does not cost alot more for us to have a place we can drive around on instead of walk. We drive by public land everyday we are out there and we get to avoid all those guys by paying a fee. Like I said before its two days out and two days back for us. If we try to scout public ground for a couple days that makes a very long trip for us.

MT its not that $200 is something I can't afford its the principle of thing. The state thinks that they can just steal from non-residents. Everyone bitches about health care cost rising 9% but a muledeer tag can go up by 60% (roughly) and I am supposed to say thank you montana. I really hope there are alot of empty motel rooms and no one around come hunting season.

Hunting and shooting is all I do. I don't fish, drive fast cars or build chit. I am not going to let montana steal from me because they think they need more of my money because I don't live there.

Dink

Well, DINK, you've changed my views on the subject. I am now deciding that I WILL put in for a MT deer tag and hope my 4 points cost me $527. And I will probably shoot a smallish buck like I did in MT in 2006 and be all the happier for it. Now if I could just find a resident with a bird dog...

still forking over $5,000 and not even hunting mule deer on the property? i know locals that will fork over decent cash to get a good shot at a decent bull elk without having to climb to high cause bull permits are scarce on the east end of the state and us flatlander sometimes dont like the vertical chit to much.....but $5,000 for goats? especially with all the federal land crawling with good goats and then chasing mule deer on the public land....its insane and throwing money in the garbage....

I came to this thread late but am now not believing what I'm reading.

Paying an extra $200 for an annual deer tag is NOT the same as paying an $500 per month for health insurance--which is why my wife are paying now versus what we were paying maybe 5 years ago. And that is AFTER increasing our deductible to save another $500 in the monthly rate.

I live and hunt in Montana (in fact was born here) but also hunt in many other places, averaging spending $10,000 or so a year to do so. Maybe since I hunt in Alberta 2 out of 3 years I should get a discount on their license fees, since I contribute so much to the province's coffers? Or since I try to get to Texas every winter to hunt pigs (a fine break from the Montana winter, though an expensive way to buy pork) I should be awarded a lifetime pig pass?

Give me a break.

Dink - I think you might be better off looking at Wyoming for your antelope. We used to hunt area 700 for antelope in Montana and had great hunts but as a general statement, Wyoming has better, cheaper, and more antelope hunting. We have bought leftover antelope tags the last several years and have found antelope fairly easily. In Wyoming even the school sections and smaller peices of public tend to hold antelope throughout the season. We have also found it easier to gain access from landowners in Wyoming. This is just m opinion and experiences.


ddj

actually ive heard from those that come out west that for a DIY hunt for goats and that have hunted both states, Wyoming is your best bet....ive personally never hunted there but you see the same recommendation here time after time....

I've hunted Wyoming for pronghorns many times, including last year. It has probably three times as many pronghorns as Montana (according to estimates), and perhaps as many as the rest of North America put together. It is the center of the pronghorn universe.

Wyoming also has quite a bit of public land, plus some places were landowners aren't averse to allowing hunters to reduce their goat population.

Lately the only problem down there is a LOTS of oil and gas development, which in some areas does seem to affect pronghorns, though in other areas it doesn't.

I live in Iowa and we have a huge discrepancy between Resident and Non Resident tag fees and personally I think I should get a break for living here. However, I think it would be good to increase resident and resident fees equally. I wouldn't be opposed to tags both going up by 38%. Just my thoughts.


ddj

Wyoming is a great place to hunt speed goats. I have hunted WY many times. I hunted below Gilette(sp) on public ground. I hunted mulies in the same area. Good hunting and lots of land owners that would gladly accept lots of NR $$. The draw for tags in MT has gotten better with the increase of outfitter tags being put in the lottery. Yes, prices have gone up. Get over it! MT is not attempting to steal anyones $. Perhaps Dink has a personal vendetta with MT FW&P. This is unfortunate. I respect the fact that he has views and have thought about his comments. I do not altogether agree with them. But, this is America and we can voice our opinions freely. MTG

Yeah, we can express our thoughts and feelings. But the rest of us still don't have to believe everything we hear!

There are probably a lot of reasons I-161 passed but Dink has highlighted a few. Certainly there is resentment against midwesterners who pay $5000 to hunt antelope. Most ranchers I know beg you to kill a few but if the rancher can get $5000 Gs the rules change. Now I know many neighbors of outfitted ranches that voted in favor of I-161 because they see the outfitter shooting only a select few bucks while they are getting over run with the does. How many does do the NR take? Then ask a Montanan how many cars they have totaled because of deer. Add some more resentment. For legality reasons the resident licenses should be raised by an equal %. That would be an extra $7 for an elk.

Muledeer if you health insrance went up 60% are you going to complain? How many free or reduced price hunts do you get to go on? Wouldn't those be considered breaks? I don't get that option and I don't get to write them off as tax deductions either. Those pigs you are killing are they on federal ground? I am going to guess not. I know you hunt for a living and I do it as a hobby but I still can not believe a 60% increase in tags and everyone thinks we should just be happy about it.

There is some BLM ground that adjoins the ranch we hunt. We always stop and talk to the guys and locals make fun of us for paying to hunt. What do you think hotel rooms (if you can find one on opening weekend), meals, fuel, ect. cost for five guys for six days (we get there the day before season)? Then we have to worry about other hunters being where we want to be hunting. Sure we pay more but sometimes you have weigh that chit out.

Wyoming is the place for antelope. We have maximum points there for deer,antelope and elk. The reason we usually antelope hunt in montana is because of the june 1st application deadling. If we do not draw tags for anything else we still have time to put in for antelope.

KRAKMT we kill every doe we can. We also shoot every prairie dog we can find.

Dink

No offense Dink, but most of your pain is self inflicted. If you like poking yourself in the eye for paying for things not needed then there is not much help.

I don't believe JB gets any breaks and has to pay full price for his hunts just like everybody else.

A 9 day elk hunt for anyone in my party costs them about $350/each after they've got their tags and make it to the hunt area. We eat like kings and sleep in a nice canvas tent that is every bit as comfortable as a motel room sans the modern conveniences. More than enough public ground out there so other hunters aren't a problem. Plus we manage to shoot chit despite the obvious handicap

Dink - I have max points for elk, deer, and antelope as well. I can still buy a Wyoming tag over the counter and keep my points. My Dad and I have done this the last several years and hunt public land or knock on doors. We have had no problem shooting bucks and my antelope last year made 80 2/8's. I don't say this to brag but that Wyoming has good hunting for antelope past the initial draw. I'm glad that you and your friends have a good place to hunt it's just that you may be going through a bit more work and expense than is needed.


ddj

MT I have no personal vandetta against Montana game and fish. I do have a vandetta against bullchit fee's and surcharges. If the game and fish would have said they were running out of money and raised everyone's tag $50, residents and non-residents, ok. To raise the non-residents tags that much they are saying we are nothing but a cash cow for them. I take offense to that (I probaly shouldn't but I do). Its kinda like when you go buy a new vehicle and they try to get you the $50-$100 for title application. I have never paid one of those fees and don't plan to (I know they figure it in somewhere but I am not going to agree to pay it).

Kelk you are right that we could do things cheaper. The problem is we don't have all the camping equipment do hunts like this. I know we could buy it but then you run into who really owns it or who has to buy what. I would much rather sleep in a nice tent than a nasty hotel room but .....

trouthunter we are thinking about doing this next year. I have hunted wyoming a couple of times and know they have very good hunting. We always just put in for a premium tag because we always had Montana to fall back on...

I see everyones point on the matter but it really pisses me that montana thinks they can just raise tag prices and know one is going to pissed about it.

Of the five of us two are out and two still want to go. I am undecided still but very pissed about it (not that it does me any good really).

Dink

Dink,

As to the equipment issue, I think that a tight knit group like yours could figure out some sort of arrangement. However, there are other options at least here in CO and I'd imagine you could find something similar in most western states.

Rent a tent and stove. Tons of places here in CO to do just that. Then you guys would just need to hold onto your personal gear such as cots. Also know some places that rent pop up trailers too. There are options to help reduce costs and get you what you want.

Seems you missed the part where the citizens of Montana through the initiative process voted to eliminate the guaranteed outfitter tags and raised the price of non-residents to back fill the loss to the block management program. Fish and game never took a position.

Dink, I wish you a successful hunt in Wyoming. I have said it before and will say it once more that you and your friends indeed are welcome to come hunt here in Montana. We should not be at odds over this. I do not harbor any personal resentment for you. I firmly believe that you should put your anger behind you for it will not serve you well. I will not apologize for what the people of Montana have voted. Good luck. Good hunting. MTG

I am not at odds with anyone over this. The people voted and it is what it is. I don't have to like but then again I don't like alot of things.

Why was everyone against the outfitter tags? Why would residents care if non-residents paid more for a better chance at a tag? I never did understand why this was put to a vote. I never bought a outfitter tag but thought it was a good idea.

Dink

DINK: You are way over-simplifying the situation!
THE main problem is that for the last 3+ decades "outfitters" have been buying up the Hunting rights on more and more and more private lands and access to public lands as well.
These ranches, access to public lands and private lands as well, had very often previously been available to the average Hunter!
I just yesterday Hunted adjacent to an "outfitted" ranch that had just over 1,200 (one thousand two hundred!) Elk on it!
Myself and my two companions counted them!
It took a LONG time to count this many Elk by the way.
Yeah... its an "outfitted" ranch that charges BIG MONEY to harvest a Bull Elk ONLY, from that amazing herd.
Once the Hunting season is over this same rancher (for the last several years anyway) simply dispatches a small fleet of hired hands on ATV's to "disperse" (run off or "de-outfit"!) those same Elk!
Then, after the season, these Elk take refuge from the Wolves on neighboring ranches where the owners do not appreciate/make money off of their presence!
So instead of having game animals Hunted throughout the season by many folks, and the animals spread out among the various public lands and the edges of private lands the Elk (Deer and Antelope often as well) annually seek the relative calm of the outfitted/private lands.
By the way, the last I heard the "outfitted" (tresspass fee!) price on this ranch was $5,500.00 and was limited to 10 Bull Elk Hunters during a 37 day long Rifle season!!!
Hmmm... I wonder if that rancher/outfitter declares that $55,000.00 as "income"???
This is JUST ONE reason MOST people are against "outfitter" set aside tags!
By the way we never saw an Elk - not EVEN ONE ELK, during yesterdays Hunt on the adjacent lands where we were allowed to Hunt.
There are about 20 (twenty) equally pertinent reasons MOST Montana voters ARE against the "outfitter" set asides!!!
The reason it was "put to a vote" was the majority of Montanans ARE absolutely sick of the situation, as is.
DINK and this, part of reality (good mental health!) is being aware that MOST people could give a rats ass less what YOU or I think!
Your opinion matters ONLY to you - when a situation that you obviously have no clue about has offended the majority of the affected people THEN in a democracy the affected people vote on it!
And again the results are "is what it is" and your and my opinions are now irrelevent.
By the way I did vote on this matter and as a result of the way the election turned out I am hoping to see an improvement in Hunter access.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

your reading comprehension skills suck cause i and several others have pointed out various ways outfitters have pissed of Montanans....

from my own experience they tried to bully myself and friends into paying to become outfitters cause we were taking local kids that have not been exposed to fishing much out fishing on our dime....we werent taking a dime for our time but they still threatened legal action if we didnt join the Montana Outfitters and Guides Association.....they backed off eventually.....

In NM 12% of NR tags are set aside for people who are signed up to hunt with an outfitter. That along with our out of control land owner tags has given outfitters and land owners so much voice/power with our GF Department/legislature we are having a really hard time getting anything changed in NM. There is even a survey on the web that allows NR. to give input into our tag allocation that will be taken to the legislature this year. ( sorry but I can't agree with that)

How are land owner tags issued in MT and do they receive antelope and elk tags? In NM a person can get a unit wide elk tag with as little as 5 acres.

I can see the outfitters leasing the land pissing everyone off but I got news for you guys it happens here and all we have are whitetails to hunt. Lease ground here to just hunt whitetails runs $10-$12+ a acre. Most guys hunt these lease's opening day (saturday) and sunday. I have seen some leases bring as much as $25 a acre to hunt just the opening weekend of rifle season.

By doing away with outfitter tags do you guys really think you will gain hunting priviledges on these ranches that are now off limits? My opinion is there will always be someone with a tag willing to pay to hunt there.

I think this was a bad move for the state of montana in a economic way. The guys that paid for the outfitter tags will take there money and buy tag voucher's in other states. The guys that have the money to pay for outfitters and the outfitter tags are not going to wait to draw a tag. They will find one somewhere (they have the money). Guys like me that can't or won't pay for the outfitter tag are the guys to say [bleep] it I ain't going. It would be interesting to see if business suffers from this new decision or if business stays the same. I doubt if they would admit it if it hurts business.

Dink

i never gave a chit bout the leased land.....i aint allowed on plenty of land not leased by outfitters....its privately owned land...i dont figure i got much of a say on who is allowed on private land...

only thing i ever figured is if the animals were present on the land during the hunting season and the land owner turned away hunters like myself willing to shoot does then they should not be able to put in to allow post season game damage hunts on their land....if you wouldnt let me shoot the things during the regular season you shouldnt get special consideration post season....

on the west side of the state where deer and elk will be at high altitudes and dont come down till the last week of the season or later is a different issue....

arrogant outfitters trying to push around Montanans like myself and my buddies taking ppl fishing on our dime and expected us to pay to join their organization to do so is what pissed off alot of folks around here....im a hard headed Norwegian, you dont tell me i have to pay some [bleep] outfitter organization to take some kids fishing for free....

Stealing? Hmmm. That seems like a ridiculous charge.

I like the guy who accused MT of being full of Democrats. NR Elk tags have what, 40-50% success rate? What is more free market than trying to match the supply rate to the demand? If you want to place political labels, I would say that is a conservative tack.

As I stated in another thread, I voted for 161 because on principle. I don't think that some should be able to buy their way to the front of the line. The fact that my interactions with outfitters have almost always been negative didn't endear me to them, either.

As for the Doc, I don't think he will fare badly. I think that the raise in price along with the increase in tags will make the next few years at least easy to draw, and it will cost alot less than leasing the land for that tag. Heck, Doc should lease his land to Dink et al and take the extra to put in for tags in other western states. Doc, you could have an all-expense-paid trip to WY to hunt elk next year with what is left over after buying your tag. No need to thank me!

I am not glad to see the NR tags raised. I thought the deer tags were raised too much. However, I got to vote yes or no, not how much and where. So you think I'm stealing from you? I guess I will still sleep OK tonight. You see, I could make alot more money if I moved, but I pay that price to live in MT. I pay that price for a good place to raise my children, the outdoor scenario is part of that. I work harder for less in exchange for living in MT. Yes, I will sleep OK with my decisions.

As an aside, I do know some NR who come here as a group every year. They put in for NR elk tags, and about half get drawn. The rest buy deer tags (unlimited) so they can legally be hunting, and they party hunt for elk (illegal). The higher deer tag expense will probably put a damper on this, and that doesn't hurt my feelings especially. They are friends of the family, and I don't make it my business. But I am not particularily fond of it.

I find it completely humorous that someone is complaining, this much, about a tag fee increase yet they pay to lease 1000's of acres and stays in a hotel. Me thinks someone's got things a bit mixed up...

NR elk tags have a 40-50% success rate...How many of those non-residents paid to hunt private ranches to get the success rate that high?

I keep hearing about how everyone that works in montana is under paid and how they pay that price to live there. Well if the rest of us make more money (I have no idea if that is true) you guys should be glad everytime you drive on a state maintained road, bridge or overpass. Those are all paid with federal tax money that we get to pay more of since we make more money.

I know alot of people are mad at outfitters for various reasons but guys like me have nothing to do with that. I pay a private ranch owner to hunt. I am sure the ranch owner spends most of that money in montana either on his hired hands, feed or equipment.

Pointer what I pay alot already as a non-resident with out the tag increase. I think a $200 tag increase is stealing. The people voted against the outfitters and against the non-residents in hopes of having these big ranches that are leased opened to free hunting. In my opinion these people voted on a dream and now I have to pay for there dream of free hunting on ranches that I don't think is going to happen.

I heard everyone say about non-residents paying there way to the front. What are they going to vote against next custom rifles? Since the average guy can't/won't afford a $7500 custom rifle are they going to vote and make it a law that one can only hunt with a factory rifle that cost less than $600? What about the guy that can kill game at 800 yards he will kill more game than the average guy. They going to outlaw rangefinders and shots over 200 yards so its fair to the citizens of montana?

Dink

The outfitter guaranteed tag was the lever that swayed my vote for I-161. I have had an outfitter approach me and inform me that he had the lease on all the land in this area and that I could not legally hunt there. He stated that he personally knew the owner. The problem with his statement was that I was the owner of the land. This I informed him of and escorted his ass off my land. The one thing that gets me permission in the breaks country is that I allow local ranchers to take the alfalfa hay off my land and graze their cattle. Now, this is only 20 acres. But, it is my land and no stinking outfitter is going to bluff me. I have had two run ins with outfitters that were in the wrong. Both did nothing to gain my respect for them. The MT outfitter association will, not doubt, challenge I-161 in court. This will be tied up in litigation for some time. I am sure we have not heard the last of this bill and its' outcome. Stand by! MTG

In case you didn't know, I too am a non-resident. However, I don't have the $$ to pay landowners like a "rich guy" like you. I sleep in tents and I hunt public ground. It's "rich guys" like you that have locked me out of places to hunt that I used to have access to just for asking or offering to do some work. I ain't sorry your puzzy hurts...

If you don't like MT "stealing" your $200, then stay out. I bet if you posted your gear list and expenses from your last trip to MT, I bet I could cut out $200 that you wouldn't miss. The drum you are beating is getting quite shrill...

And believe me, I know a whole hell of a lot more about the federal land, state wildlife issue than you and your arguments have lost at nearly all court levels. Give it up.

I'm beginining to think your screen name is very appropriate...

once again the Feds are pulling money out of the state with leasing grazing, mineral and timber rights as well as not allowing the state to tax the big tracts of tribal land....only fair they give us money back....

$200 extra for the tag aint stealing, your voluntarily giving the money....dont like it dont have to pay it....

atleast 2 of us have said we voted against it cause outfitters have pissed us the [bleep] off, the guaranteed tags and access to private land aint why we voted.....the [bleep] outfitters attitude is what got us to vote for the [bleep] thing....

your reading comprehension [bleep] sucks...

Sorry I wasn't clear. I was referencing a draw rate success, the actual success rate for filling elk tags is much lower. Buying them is the easy part!

My vote had nothing to do with you, but with fairness in general in the drawing system. The difference between an elk tag and a rifle is that one is bought from the gov't. When you can curry special favor from the gov't with money, we are essentially facing corruption. When a specific lobby can manage to have that money come through their industry by swaying some pea brained politicians, that is corruption. You undoubtedly understand the difference between publicly owned property (game) and privately owned property (rifles).

The reason this, and other issues, have to go through voter initiatives is b/c politicians are too cowardly to stand up and do what is right and what the folks want, so we have to put it to the people directly to vote up or down. The people spoke, and a consequence of this correction was that revenue had to be replaced. Considering the drawing rates, I think the elk license increase was warranted. The deer tag increase seemed drastic to me, but I didn't get to decide. Also, I'm not privvy to the numers involved, or smart enough to conduct a proper analysis to determine what sort of price shift the market can bear. In my opinion, there will be alot less people putting in for elk and deer. Next year elk tags will be a bit more expensive, but easier to draw. Then NR's will be able to get their tag for less than they would have paid for the outfitter's tag and use it where and how they wish. I'll bet there will be far less deer tags purchased, so those who have them will have less compitition in the field. Maybe this will translate to you having to pay less for a lease? Silly that you lease anyhow in my opinion, but I don't wish to tell you your business. It is funny to me that someone who choses the elitist route of securing a lease in an area with so much public land, and at great personal expense, is grumpy about kicking down a couple of hundred bucks more that will undoubtedly keep poorer folks from competing in general (more elitsm). You will certainly not hear me begging you to come purchase a deer tag though! You can come back to MT and shake your fist and be angry that we stole from you (?) or you can go somewhere else and pay a similar fee. Considering your bitterness, how could you enjoy coming back here?

The only ranch I've ever known that had a private lease was north of Terry (as opposed to an outfitter lease). The nice folks who owned the place locked out all locals because some guys from WA paid for the rights year after year. Last year they coudlnt' afford the lease, and she gave me permission to hunt their place as a result. I never made it over to hunt, though it was a good piece of property. I did hunt about 20 miles from there 3 times on other property, BMA, BLM, and private (where permission is given to anyone who asks). I didn't need to drive the extra 20 miles b/c of so much other property to hunt. If you don't come back and lease your ranch, maybe next time I knock on their door they will say "sure." I can't say this will happen anywhere but where I experienced it, but I personally know of this one example.

IIRC the overall success rate for elk hunters in the state is somewhere between 20 and 30%....no guarantees chasing elk even for locals.....

Weak argument for justifying the difference in federal monies that come into/go out of a state...

Regardless, it doesn't matter, IMO, on the subject of tag prices anyway.

get rid of the rez and the state would see a huge up in revenue from oil pulled out of the ground.....

as i said, i would be fine with not taking money from the feds if they turn over the federal land in trust to the state.....its the feds that insist on us having the great roads, most of us were fine with the roads when they were gravel.....

DINK,

Montana has previously raised the prices for tags (both resident and non-resident), many times--and every time people bitched about it. I can remember when the price of a resident deer "A" tag first hit $10. You should have heard the bitching then.

But the state also kept the non-resident "combination" elk-deer-bear-bird-fish tag at $150 for years, long after other Western states started charging much more for similar tags. The game department finally realized that they were way behind the times. Did anybody pat them on the back when they were almost giving away those tags? No--but when they raised the price the screaming sure started.

Yeah, I do go on some free hunts, and occasionally get a discount on a hunt. But I also shell out thousands of dollars a year on hunting in various places, and have yet to bitch about the prices other states, provinces or countries charge. If I don't like it, I look elsewhere.

Yeah, I'm "lucky" that I can count those hunts as business expenses. All that was required was working a lot of other jobs (mostly labor) during my 20's while learning my profession. Even after starting to make a full-time living as a writer at age 30, I didn't make enough money to just survive for several more years. I never hunted anywhere outside of Montana or went on an outfitted hunt until I was 35. All those "free" hunts are the only benefits I get with the job--which isn't the best-paying in the world. But I decided long ago to make this my life, so don't bitch and whine.

Anymore most of my hunting is, once again, back home here in Montana. I buy the resident combination license just like anybody else, and hunt mostly on public land or Block Management. There are 3-4 farms and ranches I can hunt on, because I'm friends with the owners, but I don't have exclusive rights to hunt any of those places. Oh, and I have gotten permission to hunt private land several times because I've volunteered to shoot varmints or doe deer, which eventually morphed into permission to hunt bucks as well.

I had mixed feelings about 161, because I have a number of friends who are outfitter--but I also watched the quick and considerable rise in outfitter-leased land when the guaranteed tags started. There was a lot of anger among average hunters back then, and evidently there still is. You bitching about a $200 price hike isn't going to make it go away, and isn't getting much sympathy here because $200 obviously isn't a 60% rise in what you pay each year to hunt Montana.

LOL rich guy like me ...now thats funny. What I am is a hunter..period. All I do is hunt and shoot. Those are my only hobbies/interest.

Pointer the one thing you got right is that I would not miss the $200. $200 would not cover the bullets I send down range for practice before the hunt.

The problem is as long as people like you stand in line and pay the fee's they will go up. I can't believe as a non-resident you are happy about this. I guess you can brag to the guys you worked with how much you gave for a muledeer tag. As your laying in your tent next year I guess you throw your chest and tell yourself how much you have in the muledeer hanging outside (if you can find one).

Dink

Muledeer I know you earned your way as writer but don't let on that you get no breaks in the hunting world (just like any writer).

I don't think this new law will help anyone get back on these big ranches without paying. Your right that this increase in tag price is small amount compared to what I pay to hunt out of state. That $200 though would have covered my part of the fuel for the trip.

I guess it bothers me that because everyone was pissed at the outfitters (so it seems) it will be taken out on the average non-resident like myself. I bet outfitters still have enough business to keep most of there leases.

If everyone killed a 190 inch muledeer $200 does not seem like alot but when you wrap that tag around a forked horns leg well to me that make it seem like alot of money.

Dink

When did I say that I get no breaks in hunting? But they aren't as constant or numerous as a lot of people would imagine.

In Montana I buy my tags just like anybody else--except for the fact that in over 30 years of applying I've never drawn a bighorn ram, moose or mountain goat tag, or even a bull elk tag for a trophy area.

I do get invited on maybe a couple of hunts a year paid for by various other people. But when I book hunts myself, its very rare to get any break just because I'm a writer. In fact I can count the times that's happened on the fingers of one hand, and have fingers left over.

I booked two outfitted hunts for myself last fall, one in Canada and one in another western state. On the Canadian hunt I did get a discount--because I have been on the outfitter's cancellation hunt list for several years. Anybody else could have gotten on the same list, and done the same hunt for the same price. On the U.S. hunt I paid full price just like everybody else.

Give it a rest. Montana has the right to do what they want and when they want. Everyone else gets the exact same rights. Hunting is for the most part (I mean drawing tags) over for 2010 and we will just have to see what 2011 brings. I make it a policy of mine, as many of the rest of you, to not cross a bridge until you get to it. The bridge is months away.

Might win the lottery and be able to buy the state....or not

There's a few overpriced ranches where it would require the lotto(or $20-30 million anyway).

Numbnuts, I never said I was happy about anything. But, I won't let the tag price stop me, if I can get away from work/family. I garantee you I don't talk about the price of any tag as much as you've bitched about a the price of a tag you haven't got, or the price YOU pay for a lease. If you won't miss the money, what the hell you bitching about?? Heck, maybe shoot a bit less and hunt a bit more...

Believe me, if I go to MT I will find a deer, that's the great thing about MT. Lots of deer.

Pointer you are truly showing what kind of guy you really are with words like numbnuts. I guess you have to say it on the internet because I am sure you would never say it face to face.

Its kinda like the $50 title application fee when your buying a 30 or 40 thousand dollar vehicle. It really don't mean much in the scheme of things but I am not going to pay that fee.

A fool and his money is soon parted but I guess you know that already.

Dink

I do get a bit aggravated when folks take what I say (or type) out of context.

You got me, I am an internet tough guy. I put on a Dog the Bounty Hunter wig and "tribal" arm band when I post. If I'm really feeling it, I'll blast some Guns N Roses through the HiFi to really get me pumped to give out some cyber b!tch slaps. Welcome to the Jungle BABY!!!!!!

I started this thread to help me get info on what is to be my first trip outwest. Sure the price increase will mean a little more saving but $200 can be easily done..My wife and I have 2 kids and earn about 45000 a year so I sure as hell wont be paying 10,000 to hunt a ranch..
I apprciate your opinion DINK, but with the amount you guys are already spending....what the hell is 200 more???
Hell if you aint gonna miss the 200..Send it to me to help with my first western adventure!

So thanks for all the info thus far...What other tips do you guys have for a "greenhorn" who wants to go to Montana to hunt elk/deer????
I really want to put in for the combo tag, but wonder if I should just keep it simple and apply for one species for my first trip..

CBB I did not mean to side track your thread.

If I were you I would buy the muledeer tag and then wait and see if there were any left over cow/calf license for reduced price.

Its not about how much money you make or don't make. Its about being treated unfair because my license plate does not say montana on it. Everyone is mad at outfitters because they have the money to lease the big ranches. So there jealousy caused them to do away with the outfitter tag in hopes of putting outfitters out of business. Now they want the average out of state hunter (me and you) to pick up the tab. They wanted to be mean to the outfitters and let everyone else suffer. I already spend more on hunting in the state of montana than most locals (probaly) and now they want a little surcharge.

Montana will gladly take our federal tax money from out of staters (because they don't have the population to sustain itself) and then give non-resident hunters the finger and say you are going to pay anyway. Just pisses me off.

Like I said I did mean to side your track so badly but it really pisses me off about the tag increase.

Dink

Montana is a producer......we send out of state more timber, oil, natural gas, power, grain, beef. various minerals, produce and products than we use...not to mention the tourist industry.....im thinking we can sustain ourselves just fine.....

you wouldnt believe the amount of power that is pumped out of this state to fuel those south and west of us and we are always looking to build new power plants to sell more....

as ive said, just turn over all the federal land to the state and we will not take any federal money......

Dink - I think you should relocate to Montana. I think your views would change.

I doubt most residents here in Iowa even know what a nonresident pays. Montana can charge whatever as long as people are willing to pay.


ddj

No problems here Dink..Just trying to get on track...Next season will be here before I know it, as will the app deadlines..I need to get my chit together...

CBB- JMO, but it this is your first non-whitetail type hunt, I'd go for the deer tag and try to add a pronghorn tag or three if possible. Elk, if you are successful, bring a whole 'nuther level of complication/work. Just my 2 cents...

Rattler you may be right but I don't think you guys have enough people to support yourself (which is a good thing really). I have driven hundreds of miles on paved highway and only thing I seen was beef. I don't know how much taxes those bring in.

If I lived in montana I might have a different opinion but I doubt it. Look at the guys on this forum from montana that kill big elk and deer every year. They hunt hard on public ground and get it done. I doubt they are hoping a outfitter goes out of business in hopes they will get on some ranch they can drive around on. That is my opinion only.

Trout I won't hunt iowa because of the tag price. I have been invited a couple times but I won't pay that much to kill a deer. That and I don't like slugs or muzzleloaders.

CBB you are right next year will be here before you know it. My wife is due with son number two at the end of Jan and I had this muledeer hunt already planned. Now this. I have to either pay the $200, start all over in another state or not hunt in the west next year. I am making phone calls tomorrow......grin.

Dink

I'm just getting into this thread but all those miles seeing nothing but beeves is one of the things we like love about this place...

ingwe its one of things I liked about montana too.

3 pronghorn tags?? That just sounds like fun!!!
Are there that many lope out there??

In places....

Well, I supplied useless drivel in a silly debate, I might as well try to contribute something useful.

The out of state guys I know often have deer tags. However, elk hunting is very consuming. Trying to fill the elk tag dominates the trip, and the deer tag ends up being a distant afterthough. They often shoot anything legal to fill the tag, usually a dinky muley. Moderately irritating to someone who laments the lack of mature muleys out west, but I'm not going to accuse anyone of stealing. I will say that where elk are, it is rare to find great mule deer except special draw areas that I don't think are part of this discussion. And by the time you actually locate and take an elk AND get it to the truck, you won't be that keen on a really hard hunt for deer. Now that I've offered this advice, you will probably come out with your elk tag and have a huge deer stand in front of you... Now obviously if the money doesn't bother you, as it does seem to bother some bothersomes, then carry a deer tag with you on your visit.

I think your chance of being drawn will be very good for next year, for reasons mentioned. MT essentially increased supply and cost for the same number of elk tags, so demand should ease in response. I would guess that past draw results for NR will be worthless.

As for tips, I think you will need to ask more specific questions. Probably best to start a new thread, since this one has been highjacked so badly (I accept responsibility in part for this, sorry).

Glad to hear it Ingwe.


Problem is there's getting to be alot of misinformed people who don't agree.

Cows, not condos..

CBB be careful about the antelope tags. They have had die off and have cut tags. Last year we drew buck tags in one unit and then had to drive to another unit to shoot antelope doe's.

Dink

Nothing to see on that sucky drive, except cows..

Sammo...I think the figures put us at the 13th highest taxed people in the nation IIRC, and Dink may be right, the beeves are'nt bringing in as many taxes as some things...but I know a schittload of us won't mind throwing in on their share....

Ingwe how can you taxed that high with out sales tax? Property taxes that high?

Dink

cattle? not a ton, Sam could prolly tell yah what the tax is per head......lot of tax money made on oil, nat gas, coal and the like though.....right now there is a ton of oil under a chunk of tribal land the size of Rhode Island that if it was privately owned or owned by the state would be developed.....as is the oil companies will not work with the tribes and i dont blame them...and its not some spiritual keeping the land pure its cause plain old fashioned greed by the tribes....

as others said dont like the tag prices move here.....as a business owner i will say the state is pretty business friendly....

Yep..plus state income tax plus..plus....

You pay for the privelege of living here.....

yeah for a NR speed goat hunting is gonna be better in Wyo.....well Wyo has better goat hunting period but we had blue tongue go through the 700 district recently and it will take a few years for them to bounce back.....just one of those things that happens every so often.....

the gas tax needs to be factored in to cause its a long [bleep] drive to anywhere, especially if yah live on the east side of the state.....my back dock is a 4 hour drive away even with a lead foot.....

after the way the white man [bleep] the injuns how can you blame them for being greedy??

imho they deserve their cut of more than cigarettes and casinos..which is all they get here in the N.E.

holy [bleep] now we're getting WAYYY off topic!!!

Not sure on specific's but just like any other business owner, Montana farmers and ranchers pay a healthy property tax.


Pretty much every little town in the state is supported by natural resources be it agriculture or timber/mining etc..

there is a whole lot to the story your not aware of.....suffice to say even alot of the tribal members think whats going on is [bleep]....

Don't worry we have all that plus 10%+ sales tax.......Makes me want to rent a apartment.

Dink

still in April it aint MT.gov share that bugs me....the US.gov share is still quite a bit bigger......

as to your last real question on the original topic CBB......the overall success rate for elk hunters in the state is roughly 20% for bull, cow and calf combined......only 4% get a good sized(6x6) to monster bull and for any elk at all you have to average 10 to 12 days of hunting to get an elk.....thats not NR stats thats everyone combined......

speed goat numbers in the easiest district for a NR or Resident to pull a tag are down due to an outbreak of blue tongue, if yah want to hunt goats, head to Wyoming.....Wyoming is the best place to hunt goats anyway as they have more than everyone else combined but the good places for NR to pull a tag most the time here are at a population dip at the moment....

as for mule deer......the hunting is good.....

Headwatermike, thanks for the response, no need to apologize. I have been part of hijacking threads myself..
I appreciate the info you passed on.
Based on the amount of time..5 days for my prospective hunt an elk and a deer may not be realistic given there may be 2-3 of us in the hunt.

Thanks Rattler...

the fact of the matter is unless you have access to a real good area be it a private ranch or a chunck of public land you know really well and have hunted alot, elk hunting takes time, unlike deer they have no problem packing up and heading out to see new country when pushed......a mule deer buck even when pressured will often hang out in the same general area for a 6 week season....

Yeah, you had better have your poop in a group if you are going to fill elk tags in 5 days. Hopefully you will have alot of the groundwork laid. Elk are not like deer either in how they are dispersed. Deer are sort of all over--you really can't go anywhere here and not see them. Elk are in groups, and you are either in elk or you are not. It is really easy to not be in elk. Be prepared to find elk where you least want them to be, and to go there with little time to waste, b/c the extraction will usually take time too. That being said, you have alot better chance of getting trigger time with a deer tag.

You could also be out here in some of the low open valleys in weather like we have right now with alot of other road hunters and take elk the easy way, in the flats. I wouldn't drive to MT for that prospect alone, but it is there. Alot of tags get punched that way. Personally, I usually get my elk when the weather is still pretty good.

Breaking news!! The elk will be down out of the mountains any day now as we will be ass deep to a tall giraffe in snow. Yah, and we can play golf on snow shoes with big orange golf balls. Good 'nuff! I will out mid week on my snow shoes, if necessary, to try to rattle up a WT buck as they are going nuts here in NW MT. MTG

More breaking news. I just completed plowing my drive and barn drive up. We have 8" of new snow and more coming down. Weather lady says it will snow thru Wed. morning. Calling for 1'-2' in the Mission mtns. Great! Guess I will have to chain up to get to my elk grounds. Good 'nuff! Snow shoes, warm gear, 300WSM and all day to hunt. Life is good! MTG

MT is double excited!!....grin!

CBB,
I would slow down your expectations a little. Just getting a license doesn't mean the animals will be beating a path to you.
After you win a license, depending on location desire, you then have to try and draw a permit to hunt that area. NR's are allowed only limited numbers of these. only 10% in many cases. In residents cases if they don't get drawn then they are out a big $20 but you will be out hundreds.

And all those ranchers who had their arms twisted by the outfitters may not be willing to let you hunt since they were part of the exclusive hunting rights and the money they got paid by the outfitters. And remember most of the land is privately owned and hunting is controlled by the owner.

Block management will be your best bet along with the public land but of course that is where most of the residents also hunt. Given that fact also understand it is a very big place and even though there are other hunters you may never see them.

Good Luck MTG, and be sure to take some pics!!

I hunt NF here in NW MT. If I get nothing other than a good day afield that is good 'nuff for this old hunter. I got my yearly meat, WT doe and a good 'loper buck. I am hunting for a good rack now. I am not that crazy enuf to expect them bulls and bucks to come out of hiding without lots of hard hunting. The best part is that I get to go and will hunt hard. Hunt hard for small rewards. MTG

Application fee for resident and nonresident drawing is refunded by Montana FWP unless you select the points option ($2). Just to be clear, Montana residents purchase a general deer/elk license over the counter. Draw only areas are a lottery for both residents and nonresidents (10% for nonresidents is about right) and are designed to meet specific management requirements.

Might be a stretch to characterize outfitters "twisting" arms of landowners. In my area, many of the landowners are tired of policing their property and babysitting both residents and nonresidents. Certainly understandable that it is less complicated to deal with one entity with a vested interest. Given the vast public lands here, I might recommend taking a trip away from the heated seats and satellite radio.

Wow. I can't believe I read this whole thread. Besides not actually learning what the 2011 NR Antelope price will be (The MT 2011 annual rule only mentions elk and deer), I learned that Dink:

1. Drives a $40k vehicle.
2. Shoots a $7,500 custom rifle
3. Pays $5k for a land lease
4. Pays another $5k in expenses for his antelope hunt

and...

is pissed about $200.

brymoore, think i posted somewhere to email FWP cause i hadnt seen anything on speed goat tags.....or call them.....

Since I-161 was only about Outfitter Sponsored Licenses, the antelope license/tags will not be effected.

Toolelk, I echo your statement about getting away from the heated seats and satelite radio. The best part of the season is upon us. Ya' can't get to the good hunt areas with a vehicle now. Ya' gotta put in the sweat equity and time. It thins the herds of the road hunters. I use no ATV or snow machine. A good pack frame, sharp knife, perhaps a long walk sometimes fill the hunt. I look upon it as adventure. BTW, always be safe and prepare for unexpected circumstances such as having to spend a night in the field this time of year. Pack for success and a good safe hunt. MTG

Toolelk,
This year was my 18th year of hunting in Montana. 12 of those for elk. That just so we know I know a little bit about the way the system works for NR's. Never with an outfitter.
You are correct you can return your license for a partical refund. I have never done it but I think at best its 80% so 20% of $640 still is in the hundreds level. And it gets worst the longer you wait.

I also think you are correct that the twisting being very little. The landowners are tired of everyone forgetting that they own the land to run a business in most cases. I don't think the passage of I-161 will do anything to change the situation.

A word of advice to those NR hunter who get to hunt on private land...don't forget about the rancher and they like to be treated nice. Our group has always taken the ranchers out for dinner at least one night. Some of the parties we hosted at the Hell Creek Bar in Jordan are legendary. And then most important, be prepared to have to drive a few of them home. They do know how to have a good time and drink their fill. A most wonderful bunch of folks who live a hard life making a living.

unreal the amount of good will that buys yah isnt it? some of the private land i do have access to is cause of my brother and/or i helping out during the rest of the year.....

brymore you are very wrong about me....except the part about pissed about the $200

I drive a old truck that has been paid for a long time. My wife on the other hand.....In my line of work I had to pick between nice guns or new trucks. I have a few what I consider nice guns.

I do not have any $7500 rifles but I would rather have one of them than a new truck.

I do lease land but not for 5k (in missouri).

I did split the 5k cost of a antelope hunt between five of us. I will do the math for you my part was 1k..that included a place to stay and meals for the week.

You are right I am very pissed off about the $200 and it has nothing to do with the actual dollar amount.

Dink

LRF, I was referring to the application fee as it is refundable if unsuccessful.

Hard to know what impact I-161 will have on access. The county where I live was overwhelmingly against the initiative and I am waiting to see if there are any repercussions next year. Relationships are key and an act of kindness (a simple note) is always appreciated.

It is your friends in Jordan and other small towns across the state that will be hurt if the nonresidents decide to hunt somewhere else.

How is the hunting near Pinesdale?

Well, since you hunt antelope and it appears the price hasn't changed, you have nothing to be pissed about.

brymoore did you not catch the part about going muledeer hunting next year. That would be were the pissed off part comes in.

Dink

Anyone here hunt near Pinesdale?

Just the wolves...

I have hunted near pinesdale a couple of times but have not been there since 2005.

Dink

I didn't see where you said you hunted mule deer.

Classic case of sand in the cooter DINK, get over it. No outfitters in my county and I hope it stays that way. We do have a couple of ranches that NR lease. Hope this ends that nonsense too. Not that I don't have more land to hunt on than I could possibly cover in one season, I just hate to see people buying their way into a good buck.

Ranger1 I am getting over it. I have been on the phone the last two days putting together a muledeer hunt in wyoming. I hope no non-residence hunt in montana this year (I know that won't happen). Maybe all the merchants that depend on non-residence hunting to make a living might have a different attitude about non-residents then..maybe not.

Dink

the funny thing is you still think this is about nonresident hunters.....

Dink,

Do you really think hunting is that big of a cash crop for our business? 3 million people visit just Yellowstone national park a year. 1.9 million visit glacier national park. People flock to our rivers for world class fly fishing, we have the biggest ski resort in the united states and one of the few private ski resort in the world. 10 million tourist visit Montana each year.

I don't think too many will be concerned with a few less non res hunters next year.

True enough in Bozeman but not so much in Jordan, Ekalaka, Richey, etc. Just talk to the taxidermists. The unintended consequences of I-161 will not be known for years.

Rattler I am not sure what it was really over. Other than people being mad at outfitters. Everyone that voted for it had to know that what ever tag price increases would be taken out on the "average" non-resident hunter.

I think the economic impact will have a effect on many. The guys that pack there tent,meals and supplies from home probaly don't spend alot of money in montana other than for there tag and fuel. This is just a guess on my part but I think there will be alot of montana business owners unhappy about the money they make in october.

What really is going to be bad is if everyone continues to hunt montana. Then the rest of the western states will raise there tag prices to match.

Dink

Here's hoping that the intended consequences greatly overshadow any of the possible unintended consequences. Natural resource development would be a far better way for small town MT to see economic success than pandering to out of state hunters for a few dollars in the fall. While my home town businesses see hordes of pheasant hunters in the fall, the other 10 months of the year require the patronage of those of us who live here. Sharing with NR isn't a problem until they try to take it all.

No doubt its different for each part of the state. Do you think with less non res hunters in Garfield county will make a huge impact on revenue?

Honest question as im not trying to be a prick but actually see what kind of impact there will be for the smaller towns.

According to the locals it will have a huge impact. Check the plates in the local motels, primarily nonresidents. Ask the taxidermists where their work comes from. Remember the impact wolves had on the outfitters in Gardiner? Ask the motel owners about their business. Try to put a number on how many of those nonresident hunters return with friends (or tell friends). Any blow to tourism is not good for the state.

the fact of the matter is its actually fairly rare to run up against a Montanan that is dead set against nonresidents....hell i extended an offer to one of the guys participating in this thread from out of state to come out and ill show him around and he can crash at our cabin.....have extended the same invitation to many.....

push comes to shove i doubt many that voted to get rid of the outfitter sponsored tags would have a problem at looking at the nonresident tag costs in the future.....the vote wasnt about nonresidents hunting in Montana, the vote was about outfitters and their overall attitudes.....whole lot of us that voted to get rid of those tags did so knowing it was likely not going to change a damn thing with access to private land currently leased by outfitters, most residents know how to hunt just fine without getting access to that land....

whole lot of us were sick of the bullchit the outfitters were pulling and dont have a single bad word to say about out of state hunters...

I don't think for one second that the number of NR hunters will diminish in the future. Licenses are slightly more expensive - that's all that happened.

I hope that is the outcome. However, we know one that has decided to hunt elsewhere.

Thats the way I see it too. With more tags available will it bring in more hunters to hunt block and public lands? Will that in turn bring more revenue to local hotels, gas stations, restaurants and stores?

Im always more then willing to help someone out that wants to hunt Montana. Even better someone who is coming to hunt public lands and block.

Like was said before. Time will tell.

i have a hard time taking anyone ive never hunted with on to private land.....i live here 365 and when i take someone to land that aint mine ive got to vouch for them and my reputation gets tied to theirs.....more than happy to help someone new get the basics of the public land figured out, might not share my favorite spots but i will try to give them the best chance possible of a decent success.....if i hunt with the guy a few times then i might consider introducing them to the landowners i know.......

pretty well will help anyone out where i normally hunt, pointed more than a few NR hunters i only met in passing out in the hills to where an ok buck is i passed on cause they said they havent had good luck and were getting desperate....most the locals i hunt with are the same way....

The guys that hunt public/block land are the guys that buy nothing but a tank a gas on there way through. They like to hunt but won't spend any money. Thats my opinion anyway.

Dink

as someone that hunts those areas im gonna say bullchit.....they fill up the hotel rooms and bars and such around here....

The hotel near my home town is booked for next year with NR hunters for two months. No outfitters here - all hunters are on public and private DIY with the exception of the 2 leased ranches. If we have a bad winter a lot of them will cancel - Nobody will die or lose everything they have over it either.

Yes. When you have private-land honeyholes, you don't want to be bringing other people to them. Not much good comes of that. No good deed goes unpunished, etc.

most my honey holes are on public land.....most hunters be they resident or NR dont like to walk......ive got a couple easy walks where i rarely to never see a sign of another being there.....most the private land i know is for pheasants and whitetail....mule deer and goats are pretty well all public land hunting for me.....

Exactly the argument many of the outfitters made - landowners are tired of irresponsible hunters. When the landowner leases to one entity, they have just that entity to hold repsonsible.

true but if your local and willing to fix fence and help brand it can get yah on alot of private land

Therein lies the secret...

in high school i had access to a hell of alot of land in northern McCone county cause me and my buddies would make rounds in the spring and see if anyone needed help.....once i started dating Darla, her dad has a cabin at The Pines on the northside of Fort Peck, in a year i went from hunting mostly private to mostly public land.....thats about the time i also started getting pretty busted up and fencing all day and messing with a bunch of calves with only 3 wrestlers started loosing its appeal.....no longer have the access i used to, still have some cause my younger brother helps alot of ppl out and through him ive got access but rarely hunt out south anymore......

I used to hunt with guys that would only hunt public ground. Those guys always brought thier tent and meals from home. They also drive from straight through even if its 24 hour drive. They thought paying a tresspass fee was paying to much to hunt. I know alot of guys that do it this way and there is no way they are paying for meals and hotels.

Dink

and there is a whole lot that dont.....

DINK, the more i think about it the more it surprises me you say you hunt Montana alot.....you pay through the nose for a trespass fee to hunt the one critter its easy to fill your tag with in short order on public ground than hunt public ground for mule deer....you seem to have no grounding in reality for what most hunters that come to this state do.....and we cant seem to get through your skull that we got rid of the outfitters tags cause of the outfitters and not access to private land or cause we hate NR hunters.....

Wow, I am actually glad I started this thread.
I have a couple offers of people willing to show me round MT..
Now all I need is a tag!!

I dropped more than a few bucks in Miles City this fall while hunting Block Management land,and I hope to do it again next fall.The motel I stayed in was full of hunters,most hunting public or block land.Hunters are good for small town economies,and I can't see that changing anytime soon.Outfitters piss off residents in a lot of states and provinces,here in BC they drive us nuts.Nice to see Montana voters send them a message. Monashee

Rattler I understand that. I look at though as your hatred toward the outfitters is being taken out on me. Residence knew that by taking away the outfitter tag that it was not going to cost them anything but would cost all other non-resident hunters more money. The people voted to screw the average guy because of there hatred/jealousy toward outfitters that are probaly a resident of montana. I don't think the people are against out of state hunters but I don't feel I should foot the bill for everyone wanting to be mean to outfitters.

Rattler I don't think we will agree on the guys staying at the motel. The non-resident guys that will give $500 or $600 a week to stay in a motel room will be the guys paying the tresspass fees to hunt. In my experience/opinion the guys hunting the public ground are to cheap to pay to stay in the hotel or a tresspass fee. Maybe thats only with the group of guys I know and have hunted with. I think you will find the hotels alot more vacant in 2011. It will be interesting to see.

Dink

Thats great. Once you hunt the west you will want to do it every year...

Dink

given the out of state pickups i see outside the Cottonwood in Glasgow are the same ones hunting the hills with me im pretty sure im right....

I have stayed in the Cottonwood many a year on our way thru into the Charles Russell.

OR, maybe they're not 'Rich Guys' that want to be pandered and don't mind doing it this way and couldn't afford it the other way. OR, they realize that by not spending money on hotels/leases the $200 increase ain't worth bitchin' about. OR, they figure that camping out and not leasing land for pronghorns allows them to go again the next year, cause it's cheaper. OR they're not 'Wussy Rich Guys' from MO...

I know for me, I'd rather stay in a decent camp than to stay in a small town motel. Plus, I can usually cut down on the drive in the morning/night that way.

Nearly every eastern montana outfitter/guide I have come into contact were NOT montana residents. Many from Wisconsin, a few from Pennsylvania, a few from Idaho and Washington. I encouraged the Gazette to do a story on the impacts and outfitter residence but no luck. My experience is that in eastern montana the outfitters are not residents.

Dink didn't you report that part of your Montana hunting trip included room and board provided by the ranch. What hotel you staying in, how much local revenue are you providing?

I didn't hunt MT this year but I did hunt WY for antelope. I stayed in a hotel, ate my dinner at a local restaurant, drank a few drinks each night at the bar and bought gas from the local filling station. I spent all of that money in WY and I hunted public ground.

I would also like to give a hearty cheer to any non-resident hunting Montana and staying in a tent for the last week and a half. Account relayed yesterday was that the residents with campers in the belts were pooling their money to send in the D8 to plow the road so they can get their campers out.

Pointer I am glad your not a wuss and I hope you get tell everyone how much you gave for your muledeer tag. Hell I hope you give them a extra $500 as a tip for the privelege of hunting there. Maybe next year they will make it mandatory for you lick someones azzhole before get a tag...I know that won't bother you though.

Krakmt we always stay one night each way in miles city.

Things are looking up though for wyoming....

Ahem.....

Now we know how you really harvest those dinks.

2X4...preferably hardwood...
Also serves to tenderize the meat...as if it needs it...

Back to the original post...FWP's initial plan for nonresident tags...jim

http://fwpiis.mt.gov/content/getItem.aspx?id=47258

Thanks Jim,

That about sums it up!


ddj

Thanks hunterjim....wow they even raised the youth tags by $134.50. Could you even get a youth outfitter tag before?

Dink

you know for some who says it aint bout the money you sure are focused on it.....

Its really not about the money so much as it is the people of montana deciding I needed to spend more because they have issues with outfitters. I don't care if the tag increase was $2,$20 or $200 it would have pissed me off all the same.

I guess though it is about the money for all the people of montana or they would have left the tags alone. It did not bother me that other non-residents paid a higher price so they could get a tag when I had to take my chances in the draw but it bothered residents? WTF. Why on gods green earth would they care? Oh thats right they were mad or jealous of outfitters making there money by guiding. I guess though it was easy for the people of montana to do with away with outfitter tags when they had nothing on the line.

In my own mind I know this will not hurt montana though. Most people are sheep and will pay what they are told to. I do hope though come next october there is some pissin and moaning and I hope its not from hunters.....

Dink

ive come to the conclusion your a moron that cant read for chit...we point out that we have been pushed around by outfitters on our own land that they havent leased or bullied over taking a kid fishing for free on our own dime and you think we did it cause we are jealous about what they make?...come live out here for a bit, last thing anyone is worried about is what their neighbor is making.....we aint living here for the money thats for damn sure so its rarely even brought up....

You make it sound like all outfitters are are crooked and dishonest....

all of them? no.....sure some are fine but enough of them pissed of plety of ppl.....

i sure didnt vote to get rid of the licenses cause i thought they were unfair or cause i thought NR should pay more......the two outfitters that tried to push us around over the kids fishing day damn near wound up at the bottom of the lake....

Rattler you can have any opinion of me you wish. I don't care. If let a outfitter bully you for taking some kids fishing thats on you. Again if you let someone bully you on your on property thats on you too. I would not let anyone bully me over anything. I might get my azz whipped but we would find out who was the meaniest guy on the block.

You say you don't worry what the neighbors make but how many times in this thread has people posted that they live in montana and only make half of what thier worth. Its about money to someone.

Scenarshooter I know you did guide (you might still) what is your take on how the tag increase will hurt businesses other than outfitters? Any guesses?

Dink

I hate to say it Dink,but if it was my state's voter's choices that you were complaining about I'd suggest you find another place to hunt.The voters in Montana are no more beholding to you than the voters in Missouri are to NRs from any other State that might wish to hunt your state.Each state manages their own wildlife,period.In this case it wasn't the State but the people of Montana that made this decision,as is their right.Accept it or move on. Monashee

You should have filed a complaint to the Board Of Outfitter's for unappropriate conduct...

Dink, I cannot believe you are still chasing your tail. This has gone on for days now and your logic has proved to be nonsense. We, the majority voters of Montana, voted for this bill. You as a NR have to either accept it as the will of the people of MT or just plain hunt somewhere else. THIS IS NOT ABOUT YOU!! It is about a free democracy that you somehow would thwart for your own selfish satisfaction. It cannot be explained any more easily. MTG

Mt I am not chasing my tail. I am working on a hunt in wyoming. I don't believe I will ever hunt in montana again. That may change but I doubt it.

How is my logic nonsense?

You are very right that you the people voted. It is my right to hope like hell that it bites alot of people in azz (won't happen but I can hope). It is also my right to spend my money else where which I intend to do (again no one will miss it but I can hope).

This is about a free democracy and is my opinion. This thread is nothing more than a discussion about why I think it is wrong what montana has done to non-residents. Nothing more. Nothing less. Sure seems like alot of you montana guys are defensive about they way you voted. Are you guys ashamed of what you done? I just don't get why everyone from montana is justifying why they voted that way if it was for the good....

Dink

Not meaning to hijack this thread, but the problem with ballot initiatives in general is the public really has no idea of the bigger picture. This was never about wildlife management (FWP lost control of managing wildlife long ago as they manage hunters/dollars). FWP is as lost on I-161 as they are on wolves.

With every decision there are risks, complications, reward, perhaps no reward,etc. Your nonsensical rant of it being a monitary cheat, to nonresidents alike, has sustained your angst over these many days. I truly believe you just enjoy arguing a point and will not let it go until you feel a victory. Good luck with that! I sincerely hope that your plan to hunt, whatever state you choose, will be a fruitful and enjoyable experience that will satisfy your high demands. MTG

[bleep] me.....all I wanted was draw odds and hunting tip,we got 32 pages [bleep] out of this!!
Wow, I am so glad that something useful came outta this!!
LMFAO!!!!!

All I want to do is spend 5 days in the west... hunting "something"..I hope we can fill a tag..But being that I have never been west of Michigan...it would be an experience of a lifetime anyway..
My Uncle that may tag along has been to Wyoming when he was 14 with my uncle Dave and My Grandfather but hasnt been west since his early 20's..
My hunting buddy has been on a few whitetail hunts in Canada and one in Iowa last year..
So by all rights I am the newbie to hunting abroad...but I have killed more deer here in PA than both them bastages!!!

I love Montana and want to retire there in a few years (ok, maybe ten or twelve years). I have read this whole post and the only thing that I have gotten out of it is that MY odds of drawing a NR tag in the next few years has increased. It takes me years to be able to save up for a western hunt, but a couple of hundred bucks in the big scheme of things isn't nearly as bad as trying to save up for many more years to afford a guaranteed outfitters tag. I will camp, but will buy groceries and gas out there. I will probably visit the local watering holes a few times also. Since I am not a resident I didn't have a dog in the hunt, but I will deal with it however I have to. Good hunting.

You are braver than I am!

MT I do like to argue my point. There is no way I can win unless the tag prices go back to what they were and thats not going to happen.

To me this was just a discussion between guys with different points of view. I have no hard feelings toward anyone. I have a opinion and am not afraid to voice it.

Dink

Duckcall, is spot on IMO..
MY odds as a nr for drawing just got better....
[bleep]...I'm still in!!!!!

CBB - All of this is a "much ado about nothing" as it relates to your opportunity to come west - Montana specifically. Your odds probably increased, if anything.

If you draw and post a request for some local intel, you will probably get some PMs to help you. MT guys take their hunting and hunting opportunities pretty damn serious, as you can tell by these posts. Considering how much income residents forgo to live here and enjoy this hunting, I hope people can understand their passion. Yet, most of them are willing to help out NRs who ask.

Good luck. Hope you are hunting the Big Sky next year with your Uncle and buddy.

If the start of this winter is any indication of what is to come, there should be plenty of room about May of next year.

Little chilly right now, -20 with wind chill. Might get up to +20 by the weekend though.

You never know this time of year.
My sister was born around Thanksgiving and it was -20 something ambient at the time. Few years ago Thanksgiving day was in the 50's.


Gonna be tough on the critters with things getting nasty early like this.

The National Weather Service is predicting a "colder than average" winter in Montana, which may just be an odd's-on bet after the past week.

On ther other hand, it may be time for a few colder winters, after a decade or two of milder winters (with one or two exceptions). Which convinced a lot of people that Montana was LA North.

When I first started hunting in Montana in the 1960's, there was snow on the ground about half the time on opening day of the big game rifle season in the mountains, though most of the time admittedly not much.

I admit to being more than concerned with our declining elk herds. The obvious concern is the uncontrolled "predator on steroids" issue. The last couple of days, I have noticed many more elk traveling down the interstate (several super bulls). This latest storm will undoubtedly increase the harvest.

they threatened legal action we didnt join, we told them to show up an try stopping the kids from getting in the boatsand if they chose that rout the 30 of us would have no problem running the 2 of them out to the middle of the lake and dropping them off.....didnt hear from them again, half expected them to show up with cops though i couldnt see the Valley County sheriff getting in the middle of it when FWP had no problem with it.....

TFF......told our new editor from Indiana if he went there he was on his own, dont call us to come help him the guy has gotten a hell of an education the short time he has been here both good and bad but he is freezing to death......had to buy a heater for him to put under his desk to thaw out his toes

Havent you gone and got all sassy since moving away from the promised land Hope all is well.

Oh, and a big thanks to you guys for sending DINK to Wyoming

Elk, I saw a herd of approx. 40 cows with only a single raghorn bull in their midst this AM. In this zone only a brow tined bull can be taken. I saw a tremendous 10 point WT at approx. 1000 yds. plus. I will try to rattle him in tomorrow AM. Cold this morning but lots of critters moving. MTG

With little reason to or places to go outside, I am getting a bit jumpy. But, I do like DOG! Hope things 'there' are still going well. If you know someone who chases kitty-kats I may be interested next winter!

I just got back from my annual trip,man was it cold. grins

My buddy took a dandy 5x5 whitetail,and I got a pretty fair 5x8 mulie buck.

Life is good and Montana is my second home,if I can't get a tag next year,I'll stay home,but hopefully that won't happen.

But there is a bright side to the tags I'll get in the future.I'll be able to hunt public land with some of the people I've met here.

That would be pretty cool.

I also just got back from a Montana deer hunt along the Powder River. There were 5 of us hunting and all but one guy filled their tags. He could have but kept 'waiting for the BIG one' which never showed up. We took two 8 pt. white tails, one was a 4x4 and the other a 5x3, one 5x5 mulie and one mulie doe. The weather was COLD with lows around ZERO and highs in the upper singles. There was 6-8 inchs of snow on the ground also. Everyone had a great time and a great hunt all on public land!! We talked to a couple of guys that were using outfitters. They said they hadn't seen any deer as good as the ones we took in two days of hunting. We tried to bag a couple of Wyoming speed goats but had no luck.
We applied in 05 for the first time and again in 06 with no luck. In 07 we all got tags. Tried again in 08 and 09, again no luck but we got tags this year. We seem to be getting tags every 2-3 years. Don't know if I'll go back again as draging deer out of public land is a young man's job and I'm getting kinda long in the tooth. My knees have been hurting big time after the trip last week.