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Campfire Ranger
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Jim62: Nice harvest there with your 17 HMR!
That is a tall lanky Jack!
Good for you and many happy returns of that day!
Nice picture to.
My furthest Varmint kill to date with the 17 HMR is 246 yards but it was on a large black feathery (more delicate) Varmint!
That shot was simple compared to my friend Ron Kesselring who killed a skinny standing Weasel at 225 yards with his heavy barrel CZ in 17 HMR!
I swear that standing weasel was only 1 1/4" wide at the shoulder when Ron shot him!
I would NOT have even tried that shot with any of my 22 Magnums!
Accuarcy (ability to place the bullet precisely!), flatter trajectory, straighter flying in the wind, faster rotating bullets and faster linear bullets all add to the lethality that is inherent (supreme) in the 17 HMR!
I have now killed three species of Rabbits with my 17 HMR's - Cottontails, Jack Rabbits and Snowshoe Hares!
Again ANYONE who thinks the 17 HMR cartridge is less lethal than the 22 Magnums simply does NOT have enough trigger time with the 17 HMR!
Otherwise why would the 17 HMR arms be outselling the 22 Magnums nowadays by 20 to 1?
"Hard hitting" is an ambiguous and not convincing measure/description of a cartridges lethality on game!
Foot pounds of energy is not the only component (nor the most important!) of lethality!
There is an old saying "speed kills" and in this case that is a very important component of rimfire lethality!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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I am..........disturbed.
Concerning the difference between man and the jackass: some observers hold that there isn't any. But this wrongs the jackass. -Twain
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
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. A vid showng a 17HMR compared to a .300 win mag??? WTF? The thread is about 17HR vs 22 mags- NOT comparing them to center fires. FWIW, a 22 mag load would not be any more impressive compared to a 300 mag.
Last edited by jim62; 12/27/10.
To all gunmaker critics-
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.."- Teddy Roosevelt
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Campfire Tracker
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But what they don't show on the net is all the critters that have not been taken cleanly with the .17 Hummer..... That's a funny post considering ALL the animals lost over the last 50 years by idiots shooting .22 magnums would fill a container ship. As to the Hog and NZ Goat vids.. They took HEAD SHOTS in both vids. Are you going to tell me a 22 mag kills stuff more surely with head shots than a 17HMR? GET A CLUE.
Last edited by jim62; 12/26/10.
To all gunmaker critics-
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.."- Teddy Roosevelt
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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Where's that sense of humor today Jim?  .22 Mag = apples .17 HMR = oranges .300 WM = Alaska pumpkins ![[Linked Image]](http://media.adn.com/smedia/2010/09/01/16/GiantPumpkin.79414.original.highlight.prod_affiliate.7.jpg) We have previously debated aspects of exterior ballistics of the .22/.17 but the vids you posted raise a separate issue, that being terminal ballistics and placement. While watching the two vids I noticed that in each case there were more shots fired than critters down for keeps. There was a second pig vs. 17 HMR vid on the menu with the first you posted, same story. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RR-HwPvoEOA&feature=relatedSo, to the question you raised about the viability of the .17 vs .22 for head shots, I'm not sure it's a valid comparison one way or another. Maybe it was placement, maybe it was bullet performance? What I do know about hogs is their CNS architecture is fairly well protected on broadside shots, both by bone for the brain and muscle mass for the neck vertebra. Neither provides much if any latitude for error in placement/performance when using expanding bullets from low powered cartridges. In the case of the vids under discussion it is an open question as to whether it was placement or bullet performance that fell short, no? Put another way, it is necessary to not only place the subject bullets properly to effect a CNS kill, it is likewise necessary to have a bullet that will get there. In discussion about your assertion of equivalency of the two rounds I find some basis to object for a couple of reasons. One is momentum calculus which tells me the .22 Mag is far ahead of of the HMR. For that matter, it isn't clear to me the HMR has much more momentum than a .22 CB Short. Secondly, the WMR has several options which limit expansion. One is the FMJ loading by Winchester and another is the reduced velocity of the Federal 50 grain load. I cannot say how well the Federal load works as I haven't tried it, but the Winchester FMJ will pass thru and thru a hog's skull, be it a broadside shot or head on aspect. Until such time as a FMJ load hits the market for the .17 I would judge it inferior to the WMR on that basis for applications on larger game and even then the numbers may not fully support such applications. End of the day and all that, I'm thinking the HMR is a fine cartridge that has a lot of very specific applications. Hornady is to be complemented for introducing a quality product which raised the bar for the industry and I understand it's popularity. It does have it's limitations however, just as all cartridges do. However, I cannot view the orange as superior to the apple in this regard, or even equivalent.
I am..........disturbed.
Concerning the difference between man and the jackass: some observers hold that there isn't any. But this wrongs the jackass. -Twain
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Campfire Ranger
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Again ANYONE who thinks the 17 HMR cartridge is less lethal than the 22 Magnums simply does NOT have enough trigger time with the 17 HMR
VarmintGuy
I've killed several deer with lung shots and the 40 gr. Winchester JHP .22 Mags. All went down within 50-125 yards and were dead as a stone when I got to them. I picked the perfectly expanded slugs from under the hide on the off side of the rib cage. Try shooting a few with your 17 HMR and get back to me. I'd be real curious as to your results.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Where's that sense of humor today Jim? .22 Mag = apples .17 HMR = oranges .300 WM = Alaska pumpkins We have previously debated aspects of exterior ballistics of the .22/.17 but the vids you posted raise a separate issue, that being terminal ballistics and placement. While watching the two vids I noticed that in each case there were more shots fired than critters down for keeps. There was a second pig vs. 17 HMR vid on the menu with the first you posted, same story. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RR-HwPvoEOA&feature=relatedSo, to the question you raised about the viability of the .17 vs .22 for head shots, I'm not sure it's a valid comparison one way or another. Maybe it was placement, maybe it was bullet performance? What I do know about hogs is their CNS architecture is fairly well protected on broadside shots, both by bone for the brain and muscle mass for the neck vertebra. Neither provides much if any latitude for error in placement/performance when using expanding bullets from low powered cartridges. In the case of the vids under discussion it is an open question as to whether it was placement or bullet performance that fell short, no? Put another way, it is necessary to not only place the subject bullets properly to effect a CNS kill, it is likewise necessary to have a bullet that will get there. In discussion about your assertion of equivalency of the two rounds I find some basis to object for a couple of reasons. One is momentum calculus which tells me the .22 Mag is far ahead of of the HMR. For that matter, it isn't clear to me the HMR has much more momentum than a .22 CB Short. Secondly, the WMR has several options which limit expansion. One is the FMJ loading by Winchester and another is the reduced velocity of the Federal 50 grain load. I cannot say how well the Federal load works as I haven't tried it, but the Winchester FMJ will pass thru and thru a hog's skull, be it a broadside shot or head on aspect. Until such time as a FMJ load hits the market for the .17 I would judge it inferior to the WMR on that basis for applications on larger game and even then the numbers may not fully support such applications. End of the day and all that, I'm thinking the HMR is a fine cartridge that has a lot of very specific applications. Hornady is to be complemented for introducing a quality product which raised the bar for the industry and I understand it's popularity. It does have it's limitations however, just as all cartridges do. However, I cannot view the orange as superior to the apple in this regard, or even equivalent. No that's just bigstick when he was younger. Makes the pumpkin look much bigger than it really is  . Atleast he's got some shorts on in that picture!!!!
I try to stick with the basics, they do so well. Nothing fancy mind you, just plain jane will get it done with style. You want to see an animal drop right now? Shoot him in the ear hole. BSA MAGA
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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Gawd, I thought I could slip that one by ya! LMAO here...
I am..........disturbed.
Concerning the difference between man and the jackass: some observers hold that there isn't any. But this wrongs the jackass. -Twain
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Campfire Regular
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So what is it about 17HMR that you don't like? It is more accurate, has longer effective range and more destructive on impact. I guess 22mag could be better if you wanted to eat what you shoot and can't manage head shots. have you ever shot a coyote or javelina with a 17?? they recalled the autos.
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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Roninflag: Yes I have shot Coyotes with the 17 HMR.
Worked just wonderfully thank you.
The Volquartsen 17 HMR's have NOT been recalled - they were apparently engineered and built correctly to begin with.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy
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Campfire Ranger
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Blackheart: In the state where I live (Montana) it IS legal to shoot Big Game with the 17 HMR and the various 22 Magnums as well - there are NO caliber restrictions here.
And yes I have heard of several folks shooting Deer with various rimfires INCLUDING the 17 HMR.
I have not witnessed these situations so I have no first hand observations to relay.
I do not recommend this Deer Hunting with rimfires - nor will I ever be trying it myself.
I will repeat though - in case you did not understand me - anyone who thinks the 17 HMR is less lethal than the 22 Magnums simply does NOT have enough trigger time with the 17 HMR!
ESPECIALLY on the size game for which the rimfires were designed for and intended to Hunt with.
You conveniently left out the results of YOUR Deer shooting experiences with the 17 HMR - could you correct that glaring ommission for us?
Or not.
And this - just out of curiousity which state are you harvesting your Deer with the rimfires in?
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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It seems to me that none of the bullets currently loaded in the 17 HMR are adequate for deer and clearly shouldn't be used except under life or death situations. I know, folks who disagree will say shoot them in the CNS, but hitting the CNS is often easier said than done.
OTOH, 22 MRF 40 and 45 grain loads are often the cartridge of choice by professional herd reduction/improvement shooters. If the 17 HMR was superior, those professionals would adopt it for their purposes. Since none that I know of have, I am sticking with the 22 MRF.
I'm not anti-17 HMR, I've got several of them and have fired around 5K 17 HMR cartridges at ground squirrels, pdogs, and paper since the 17 HMR was 1st introduced. But I don't think that the 17 HMR is a better choice than the 22 MRF for heavier or tougher animals. I know that is 180-degrees different than your take on the subject, but it is my take on the subject, based on shooting several different brands of ammo from several different rifles, both factory specs and custom.
Jeff
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Again, if you take 2 cartridges based off the same case, give one a smaller, lighter bullet and one a heavier, larger diameter bullet the case with the larger bullet will be more effective on larger game. This is givin equal bullet construction. A .243 isn't a better elk round than a .308, a .25-06 is not a better big bear round than a .30-06 and a .17hmr is not a better coon/fox/coyote round than a .22M. Whether any of the above rounds are ethically capable of killin the game mentioned is ones own choice. You may believe a .243 is fine for elk or a .25-06 is fine for big bear or the .17hmr is fine for coyote. BUT THEY AREN"T BETTER than their parent cartridge for the big game.
Now you take those same comparisons and load a lighter constructed bullet in the smaller diameter cartridge and shoot "small for cartridge" game and it will blow em to smithereens and can lead to better killing power on these small targets. Take a .243 varmint bullet to a coyote and you'll get the red mist so many prairie dog hunters love while a heavier constructed .308 game bullet may act like a FMJ and do very little damage. It's due to the construction.
So a .17hmr that blows a gopher to hell and gone more than likely won't be a good choice for a coon. But that same .17hmr may be better for gophers than a HP .22M due to the fact that the bullet construction doesn't allow the bullet to reach it's fill potential on rodents.
So to say the .17 is the better killer because it splatters gophers and crows doesn't mean it's over all better.
Both have their place. But in my opinion the .22M has a smaller place. Why? The .22M is sandwiched in between the .22LR, the .17HMR and the centerfires. Doesn't leave much room for the .22M. Citters under 10lbs I'll take a .17hmr or a .22LR. Over 20lbs and I'll take a centerfire. Leaves between 10-20 lbs critters and range is limited. Not very versatile.
CB
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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Those who think the 17 HMR is a better killer for things that don't live in colonies simply hasn't shot enough 17 HMR at things bigger than a coon.
Head shots don't count for the killability of a bullet/cartridge.
For anything bigger than a coon, the 22 magnum trumps the 17HMR in every single way.
- Greg
Success is found at the intersection of planning, hard work, and stubbornness.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Well, as they say, beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
I'm not planning to sell any of my 6 17 HM2s, 7 17 HMRs, 1 5mm Rem Mag, 38 22 LRs, or 14 22 MRFs, since each fills a niche that I consider worth filling.
I would have to disagree with your contention that the 22 MRF isn't very versatile when compared to the 17 HM2, 17 HMR, and 22 LR. Performance wise, the addition of the 30 grain VMax at 2200 fps is pretty comperable to the 17 HMR out to 150+/- yards, while the common 40 and 45 grain JSP and JHP bullet have been, in my experience, much better game bullets then the lead bullets found in most 22 LR ammo. If anything, the 22 MRFs niche overlaps all of the other 4 RF cartridges to a significant degree. With a better selection of bullets, the 5mm Rem Mag has the potential to be the best of the 5, but the currently available 30 grain Centurian ammo doesn't shoot as well in my Remington 592 as the original 38 grain HP load offered by R-P.
Jeff
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Campfire Ranger
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If anything, the 22 MRFs niche overlaps all of the other 4 RF cartridges to a significant degree.
Jeff Concur completely...
- Greg
Success is found at the intersection of planning, hard work, and stubbornness.
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Campfire Ranger
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Blackheart: In the state where I live (Montana) it IS legal to shoot Big Game with the 17 HMR and the various 22 Magnums as well - there are NO caliber restrictions here.
And yes I have heard of several folks shooting Deer with various rimfires INCLUDING the 17 HMR.
I have not witnessed these situations so I have no first hand observations to relay.
I do not recommend this Deer Hunting with rimfires - nor will I ever be trying it myself.
I will repeat though - in case you did not understand me - anyone who thinks the 17 HMR is less lethal than the 22 Magnums simply does NOT have enough trigger time with the 17 HMR!
ESPECIALLY on the size game for which the rimfires were designed for and intended to Hunt with.
You conveniently left out the results of YOUR Deer shooting experiences with the 17 HMR - could you correct that glaring ommission for us?
Or not.
And this - just out of curiousity which state are you harvesting your Deer with the rimfires in?
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy I won't be trying the 17 HMR on deer either. I had one for 6 years. Shot squirrels, crows, pigeons, starlings,woodchucks and coons with it. I also have 43 years ecperience killin' schitt with the .22 LR, .22 mag and 5mm Rem mag... As I said before, the 17 HMR is a fine 175 yard crow rifle but beyond that I have little use for it. Once you get into bigger stuff like woodchucks, coons,coyotes { The 17 MAY WORK ON THEM PUNY STIPS OF LEATHER WITH EARS YOU CALL COYOTES OUT IN MONTANA BUT REST ASSURED IT'S NOTHING YOU'D WANT TO USE FOR THE ONES WE HAVE HERE IN THE NORTHEAST} or deer I'll take the .22 mag or 5mm over the .17 any day ending in Y. Heck, I'll even take A .22 LR loaded with CCI velocitors over the .17HMR for anything bigger than a woodchuck inside 50 yards. The HMR ain't just a little rimfire .243 like you seem to think.
Last edited by Blackheart; 12/27/10.
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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Oh you're gonna get it now...grin...
- Greg
Success is found at the intersection of planning, hard work, and stubbornness.
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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Oh yeah .... my cy'ote momma can beat-up your cy'ote momma even if yours wears combat boots too!! :p
George Associate Gypsy Order of Sleepless Knights ... That is when I carried you ...
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I like the trajectory on the 17 RFs, but they don't kill chucks consistently in my limited experience. After having several run off after hits with the 17, I got the 218 Bee out this past spring and they were DRT. One shot.
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