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Joined: May 2007
Posts: 13,957
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 13,957 |
FWIW, my apologies, LtPowell for insinuating that you don't have a moral compass.
My problem wasn't with the LE personnel, other than potentially the number of shots fired. My issue is with the Pima County Sheriffs Department that made these decisions.
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Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 131,961 Likes: 54
Campfire Sage
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Campfire Sage
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 131,961 Likes: 54 |
The main blame for the children being in this situation is the supposed occupation of the father. Doesn't that beg the question? Aren't you presuming guilt?
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Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 50,170 Likes: 2
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 50,170 Likes: 2 |
Perhaps I was rough on Powell with that, but I didn't like the arrogance of the statement that the rest of us don't have a clue, when it's really a question of right and wrong, not some hyper technical police protocol.
Is this the statement you are refering too? Why don't you tell us exactly how you would have done it? First tell us what the guys history is, what the warrant(s) are for, and exactly what information you have received to indicate why you would do so.
The only thing worse than a liberal is a liberal that thinks they're a conservative.
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Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 21,986 Likes: 3
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 21,986 Likes: 3 |
It is a predetermined factor (not fact), else they wouldn't have a warrant, now would they?
Guilt was not predetermined and I should have used "alleged" for clarification.
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Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 131,961 Likes: 54
Campfire Sage
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Campfire Sage
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 131,961 Likes: 54 |
It is a predetermined factor (not fact), else they wouldn't have a warrant, now would they?
Guilt was not predetermined and I should have used "alleged" for clarification. Sounded like you were blaming the dad for endangering his son by engaging in something that he's presumed not to be involved in, i.e., drug trafficking.
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Joined: May 2007
Posts: 13,957
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 13,957 |
Perhaps I was rough on Powell with that, but I didn't like the arrogance of the statement that the rest of us don't have a clue, when it's really a question of right and wrong, not some hyper technical police protocol.
Is this the statement you are refering too? Why don't you tell us exactly how you would have done it? First tell us what the guys history is, what the warrant(s) are for, and exactly what information you have received to indicate why you would do so. Actually, I was referring to this: I'll have to take your word for it, I've never been a SWAT type, though I've busted hundreds of doors as a narc, and used SWAT hundred's more. Unlike some people here, I ain't gonna pretend to know something I don't.
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Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 50,170 Likes: 2
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 50,170 Likes: 2 |
That's what I get for being humble.
The only thing worse than a liberal is a liberal that thinks they're a conservative.
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Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 21,986 Likes: 3
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 21,986 Likes: 3 |
It was presumed he was involved in drug trafficking, by the warrant being issued.
They don't issue warrants because your suspected of nothing.
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Joined: May 2007
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 13,957 |
That's what I get for being humble. Well, I thought that was a followup to the tactics you asked me to set out. I had to pick up my wife from the airport though and just got back. Regardless, these threads always get personal, which is why I usually avoid them. People here tend to be 100% pro LE or 100% anti, I try to see both sides. I respect how difficult the job is, but I fear where we're headed. Like I said above, I apologize.
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Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 21,986 Likes: 3
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 21,986 Likes: 3 |
I still do not understand why this became a SWAT situation, which is last resort IMO and lives best be on the line if doors need kicked down, not just to exercise a [bleep] warrant for dope... It's impossible to say if the decision to do a hard entry was the best route, but being familiar with serving multiple warrants on a single organization, the luxury of choosing when, and where, are limited. I hear ya. My point is that once the door gets kicked in, all bets are off and the responsibility for restraint isn't an obligation when the SOB on the other side has so much as a scratch awl in his hand...
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Joined: May 2007
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 14,654 |
For conversation....
The guy weren't shot "for a drug warrant" and weren't shot for "drugs". He were shot for pointing a rifle at the PoPo, which is a pretty reasonable reason to shoot somebody.
If the PoPo should've been where they were to get the aforementioned rifle pointed at them is a separate issue.
your flippant remarks which you so adeptly sling
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Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 50,170 Likes: 2
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 50,170 Likes: 2 |
Like I said above, I apologize. Please don't. Nothin to apologize for. Some of the first things you learn in LE is not to accept responsibility for anybody else's actions and not to second guess decisions made in moments that were not experienced. This ain't my first rodeo with government hating either. It was the same in the early 80's. Unfortunately, the only "government" that most people can wrap their heads around are postal workers and cops.
The only thing worse than a liberal is a liberal that thinks they're a conservative.
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Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 5,567
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 5,567 |
SWAT is perhaps the dumbest idea to evolve since the Gestapo. A bunch of overcharged males running around in Ninja outfits with fully automatic weapons with little oversight by elected officials.
The same people stood around the school in Columbine waiting for God knows what, while the two perps continued to murder people inside.
A long retired decorated LEO of my acquaintence said of Columbine, that first officer on the scene should have drawn his weapon and attempted to stop the carnage. Yeah, he/she might have been killed but "To Serve and Protect" should be more than a slogan on police cars.
The police are not your friend and they cannot protect you.
Executing a drug warrent does not require armed, agressive entry, absent threat to others inside. That's why we have the ability to isolate a premise and call in a negotiator.
BTW he was not a Marine. He was a vet who had served in the Marine Corps. More media BS to demonize the military.
Remember Ruby Ridge.
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Joined: Feb 2003
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 15,553 |
Not to go off on a tangent but the inaction at Columbine has pretty much changed the way most departments handle active shooters.
As far as negotiator, what happens when they fail? Drug dealers are sometimes known to have weapons and often are willing to duke it out.
"I Birn Quhil I Se" MacLeod of Lewis I Burn While I See Hold Fast MacLeod of Harris
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Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 50,170 Likes: 2
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 50,170 Likes: 2 |
You know that silence? Like when parents are taliking about Santa and a kid walks in the room?
The only thing worse than a liberal is a liberal that thinks they're a conservative.
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Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 21,986 Likes: 3
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 21,986 Likes: 3 |
Not to go off on a tangent but the inaction at Columbine has pretty much changed the way most departments handle active shooters.
As far as negotiator, what happens when they fail? Drug dealers are sometimes known to have weapons and often are willing to duke it out. Let's not cloud this fantasy....
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 15,553
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 15,553 |
I just had a really odd thought. WTF does this guy being a Marine have to do with anything? One class of American demigod was shot down by another class of American demigod. Is that the government trained psychopath demigod shot down by the government trained psychopath demigod who makes up 80% of the police ranks?
"I Birn Quhil I Se" MacLeod of Lewis I Burn While I See Hold Fast MacLeod of Harris
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 15,553
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 15,553 |
I've heard framis/bosslady/et all do live in a fnatasy world.
"I Birn Quhil I Se" MacLeod of Lewis I Burn While I See Hold Fast MacLeod of Harris
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 18,453
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 18,453 |
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Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 21,986 Likes: 3
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 21,986 Likes: 3 |
I've heard framis/bosslady/et all do live in a fnatasy world. Its better than reality when you can omit all the scary parts and be perfect all the time...
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