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Joined: Nov 2007
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 29,646 Likes: 5 |
Ok I can just delete my comments after that...
Beautifully written and spot on.
Regulative Principle of Worship... my goodness...
God has ordained means and He will be faithful when the Church centers her focus upon Him and is faithful to those means.
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Joined: Apr 2006
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Apr 2006
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I think it's easier for lots of men to choose to follow a man instead of God. Let that other guy do the teaching and I don't have to open my bible. People put their hired pastor on a pedestal and he knows it. Then he starts thinking more highly of himself and as he does, his followers seem to admire him even more. Next thing, God is clear out of the picture and everyone is focused on the man. Happens all the time.
I like the story about the old cowboy leaving someones church house when God asks him why he is leaving. Well, he says, they didn't want me in there. God says "don't feel too bad about it; they treat me the same way."
The Mayans had it right. If you�re going to predict the future, it�s best to aim far beyond your life expectancy, lest you wind up red-faced in a bunker overstocked with Spam and ammo.
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Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
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When we elevate man over Christ, we have gone wrong.
Many have lost sight of the fact that a "Church" is the people who comprise a local body of believers.
When that body meets on Sunday, it is the meeting of the church, but the buildings/facilities/etc. are not the church.
What we meet to do is worship, and that is about the One worshiped - not the worshipers - and He has given instructions about how he wants to be worshiped.
Historically, this has been known as The Regulative Principle of Worship, and God is serious about it as the sons of Aaron can attest.
Our job is to look to His word and obey it about worship, not to innovate or somehow make it about the creature instead of the Creator.
What we do when we leave that meeting is where others are reached and the Gospel is advanced.
I believe we have gone wrong in defining "church" as something which it is not, and making the meeting of the church on the Lord's Day about us instead of Him.
I also believe we have gone wrong in accepting the premise that sinful, hypocritical Christians make Christianity invalid.
Churches will always be full of sinful hypocrites, but the One worshiped by true Christians is neither sinful nor hypocritical...That's why our focus needs to be on Him, and being conformed to His image, and not on conforming worship to something which pleases us.
If we do this, we will find that the things which please Him become the things which also please us as He gives us the desires of our hearts. As we mature as Christians, worship which is pleasing to God should be our delight and please us far beyond trends, gimmicks and exercises in short attention span theater which appeal to our flesh.
DJ This just need to be highlighted.
The worst thing ever to happen to cops is the personal video recorder... Now people can see the truth
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 9,097
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 9,097 |
Where have we gone wrong?
We don't read and follow Paul's letters to the Churches. Simple as that.
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
Edmund Burke 1795
"Give me liberty or give me death"
Patrick Henry 1775
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Joined: Dec 2000
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 29,348 |
It isn't a matter of where, but how �
John 4:19-24 (KJV)
"The woman saith unto him, Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet. Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship. Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth."
Nor is it a matter of position �
Four country preachers were discussing the "proper attitude" for prayer �
"On your knees, of course! That's why we call 'em 'prayer bones.'"
"The Bible speaks often of falling on one's face before the Lord. That's humility. I can't think of a more appropriate position for praying to our Lord."
"He's our Father. We're his children. Raising our hands and our faces to Him, as His children to our Father, is surely the most appropriate way to address Him!"
[No comment from Bro' Sam]
"Sam, what's your opinion?"
"Never give it much thought. But lookin' back, I think I done some o' my best prayin' while I was hangin' upside-down from a windmill."
"Good enough" isn't.
Always take your responsibilities seriously but never yourself.
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Joined: Jan 2007
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Jan 2007
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The heart of a man that wants to find God will find him,It matters not where the man is or what he is doing.If you want him he is there.There is no place he does not stand and listen.
Last edited by jdm953; 05/24/11. Reason: change last word.
Ideas are far more powerful than guns, We dont let our people have guns. Why should we let them have ideas. "Joseph Stalin"
He who has braved youths dizzy heat dreads not the frost of age.
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Joined: Dec 2000
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 29,348 |
Cotton-field Sam loved God with all his heart and soul. The only church in his nape of Mississippi was a little country church near where he lived. He longed to be a part of the joyous throng that worshiped there every Sunday, but he knew that he would never be welcome there.
So he waited in the nearby woods until everyone was inside, then he crouched just outside an open window, where he could hear the sermon and sing the old familiar hymns right along with the saints inside.
One morning, he felt an arm on this shoulders. He looked around to see who had joined him, and beheld the smiling face of none other than Jesus Himself.
"Don't feel bad, Brother," Jesus said. "I've wanted to be in there ever since they built the place."
"Good enough" isn't.
Always take your responsibilities seriously but never yourself.
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Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 11,367
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 11,367 |
1st Special Operations Wing 1975-1983
919th Special Operations Wing 1983-1985 1993-1994
"Manus haec inimica tyrannis / Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem" ~Algernon Sidney~
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 67,727 |
Religion, just like government, suffers from having gotten too large.
Mega churches, that are bastions of cult worship, and put the minister ahead of God, are a real problem for Christians.
Sam......
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Joined: Jul 2010
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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Religion, just like government, suffers from having gotten too large.
Mega churches, that are bastions of cult worship, and put the minister ahead of God, are a real problem for Christians. Exactly When the newest building in town is the church, and the doors are only opened on Sunday morning, there is a problem!
"wanna hear God laugh? Tell Him you have complete control now!"
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 67,727 |
when the church gift shop is selling books and videos by the minister, and his his framed, autographed picture for sale, something is wrong.
Sam......
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Joined: Sep 2002
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
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Read "Forgotten God" by Francis Chan.
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Joined: Jul 2007
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Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
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Matthew 28:18-20 "And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the age." Amen.
We are too busy "making churches" instead of "making disciples".
From the book I just finished reading "Building a Discipling Culture" by Mike Breen and Steve Cockram:
"Effective discipleship builds the Church, not the other way around. We need to understand the Church as the effect of discipleship and not the cause. If you set out to make disciples, you will inevitably build the church. If you set out to build the Church, there is no guarantee you will make disciples."
"The Lord has chosen people- not plans or programs - to spread his message. Yet somehow most of our attention and energy has shifted from making disciples to developing programs, buildings and budgets."
Modern churches are "spectator events". People attend with the attitude of "I want to be entertained and taught by the "professionals" but don't ask me to do anything".
I think our pastor summed it up well last weekend. His quote was something along the lines of "Some churches are like a football game. You have several thousand people that need exercise sitting down watching while 22 players that desperately need rest doing all the work".
WFR
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 28,411
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 28,411 |
It isn't a matter of where, but how �
John 4:19-24 (KJV)
"The woman saith unto him, Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet. Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship. Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth."
Nor is it a matter of position �
Four country preachers were discussing the "proper attitude" for prayer �
"On your knees, of course! That's why we call 'em 'prayer bones.'"
"The Bible speaks often of falling on one's face before the Lord. That's humility. I can't think of a more appropriate position for praying to our Lord."
"He's our Father. We're his children. Raising our hands and our faces to Him, as His children to our Father, is surely the most appropriate way to address Him!"
[No comment from Bro' Sam]
"Sam, what's your opinion?"
"Never give it much thought. But lookin' back, I think I done some o' my best prayin' while I was hangin' upside-down from a windmill." Called "Fire Engine Religion". You scream for it when you need it.
The degree of my privacy is no business of yours.
What we've learned from history is that we haven't learned from it.
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Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 24,239
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 24,239 |
Our VP of Finance introduced me to a highly placed official in a large bank which had just taken over a segment of the company's business.Fairly quickly , he got around to making a pitch for my personal banking business - he thought I was a lot more important than I was .
Our VP got a pained look on his face when I responded :
"Mister,every banker or preacher, who ever solicited my my business,lived to regret it ."
Church brings out the best in some folks and the worst in others.I'm in the latter catagory.
Never holler whoa or look back in a tight place
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424 Likes: 13
Campfire Sage
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Campfire Sage
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424 Likes: 13 |
Does anybody besides myself take the time to put on slacks and a button up shirt for church anymore?
I can't stand everybody wearing their [bleep] flip flops and t-shirts to church.
Travis
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
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"my house shall be called a house of prayer"--most of the current organized churches follow a teaching model with a clear division betwixt laity and the professional clergy.
there is no graduation...
IIRC, transactions within the worship center were also popular in Jesus' day. The blind and lame came in post cleaning as there was newly provided room....kids ran around and the clergy got upset.
If one were cynical, you could extend the analysis of transactions to the teaching model--the inclusion of the Old Testament tithing requirement as an expected support mechanism for weekly spiritual food.
No surprise about the obesity...
Defend the Constitution
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Posts: 8,557
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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Posts: 8,557 |
Think about it. A long time ago, the church considered pianos evil and "instruments of the devil".
People complain about not "doing" church some particular way. If we conducted church like the Apostles did, there would be no indoor plumbing, no electric lighting, no printed Bibles and no air conditioning.
Things change. People change. Clothing changes. We hear sermons in English. But the important part is The Bible, The Word Of God, and it's message. That is what is important. The message is the same throughout all the centuries.
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Posts: 20,494
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 20,494 |
CurDog45-70, I think you'd do okay in one of my services.  Church services that are too stiff, bore me to tears. The ones that totally lack order are out of whack. Somewhere, there is the proper amount of liberty, and the proper amount of order. "Where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty." (2Cor 3:17) "For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace . . " (1Cor 14:33) Give me a preacher that's plugged in to the Spirit of God, preaching plain from the Bible, sweating, and doing something -- sleeves rolled up spiritually, and a congregation that is truly looking for something to help them day by day, and you got church goin' on. Otherwise, you got a social gathering. It don't have to be entertaining, or gramatically correct, with all the i's dotted and the t's crossed for God to get inside a heart and do something miraculous. He's God! That's the way he works! We're here for HIS pleasure, not the other way around! (Revelation 4:11) 
"Keep thy heart with all diligence; for out of it are the issues of life." (Prov 4:23)
Brother Keith
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Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
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Posts: 2,465 |
Does anybody besides myself take the time to put on slacks and a button up shirt for church anymore?
I can't stand everybody wearing their [bleep] flip flops and t-shirts to church.
Travis Who are you to be critical of what others wear to church? In my opinion getting dressed up for church is pointless because God sees you naked twenty four seven.
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