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My son who lives in Idaho called me today and told me about his trip to a new (new to him) church in his community. It apparently is somewhat large. He does not know for sure as he never made it into the sanctuary. Seems there is a large room in front of the sanctuary with a twenty some foot coffee and espresso bar. You can sit at the bar of one of the many tables or couches in the room and watch what is going on inside on a flat screen TV.

I am just shaking my head and wondering where we went wrong.
Scott, have you read Radical: Taking Back Your Faith from the American Dream by David Platt? I think you might like the read.
I respect you, Scott.

Yet I wonder given the choice, which side of the partition between the "sanctuary" and the coffee bar we'd find Jesus..?

Ya never know Scott, there might be a whole lot of "Church" going on at that coffee bar...
Originally Posted by Bootsfishing
Scott, have you read Radical: Taking Back Your Faith from the American Dream by David Platt? I think you might like the read.


No, have not heard about it. I will look it up.
ScottF,

I think some of today's worshipper's like a little more laid back atmosphere.

I think where it went wrong is:
-Too serious
-Too rigid
-Uncomfortable seating
-Holier than thou attitudes
-Shirt sleeve Christians, wear their faith on their sleeves and will screw anyone to get ahead, or make a buck.
-Fire and brimstone
-Too many people worried about who is there instead of why.


I find myself humbled when I am out in the woods enjoying nature. I find myself stressed out at church. Where do think my prayers are sincerest?

It's not so much where your body is ... but where your heart is.
Originally Posted by 358wsm
I respect you, Scott.

Yet I wonder given the choice, which side of the partition between the "sanctuary" and the coffee bar we'd find Jesus..?

Ya never know Scott, there might be a whole lot of "Church" going on at that coffee bar...


That is a very legitimate question. My son said no one introduced themselves. No one asked him anything and he saw no visitors cards anywhere. His impression was there was more real ministry at most Starbucks. He watched and saw few if any even paying attention the the flat screen TV.

I new a guy who held church services in a bar. It was closed Sundays and he rented it. Filled the place with recovering alcoholics because they felt comefortable in a bar and would not have set foot in a formal church. He did a lot of good work there. Told me there were a bunch of times someone came in for a drink not knowing the bar was closed and ended up drinking deep from the Living Water.

I am not one who thinks God's people can only worship in a formal church setting. In some cases I have a harder time in a formal church setting that I do with a bunch of like minded people sitting around a real campfire with coffee in their hands and smoke in their eyes.

I just thought the coffee bar thing a bit strange.
My thoughts, to a degree. A couple more recommended reads are "Why men hate going to Church" by David Morrow and "Inside the mind of unchurched HArry and MAry by Lee Stroebel.

The message, like God, do not and cannot change but our DELIVERY of the message MUST be socially relevant. This means often making radical changes from what we used to view as 'Church'

I wrote a play that we ( a local non denominational and non traditional church and I) put on Easter of 2010 and hope to put on again in 2012 Called "To hell with the Devil!" that was so loaud and graphic that we did not allow under 12 to stay n the building. A Heavy metal Easter show with an AR15 as a door prize for attenders!

With a world that is going to hell - literally - we cannot... MUST not sit in our pews and just enjoy what we like and want while ignoring the pained and dying masses who need the real Jesus and not our version of religion or religiosity.

I grew up with hymms and pews and all the rest like many of us did, but some folks are not gonna respond well to that so we must make take the message to them in whatever form they can recieve it best in.

Where did we go wrong? By sticking to old traditions and music far too long already, to suit our own tastes and preferences.

Love for God, and genuine love for and sincere deep consern for our fello man must be the motivator in all we do, or do not do.

Blessings,

A tatooe'd, rockin follower of Christ. Imperfect for sure, but a forgiven and appreciative of Gods Grace despite my depravity and iniquity.
That is strange indeed. confused
You already know this, but if you want the answer to the question check out Genesis 3...

Each generation has their little take on what church "ought" to look like. Each generation has an imperfect view, and each successive generation tries to right the wrongs of past generations by making their own errors.

Come Lord Jesus...
Originally Posted by CRS
ScottF,

I think some of today's worshipper's like a little more laid back atmosphere.

I think where it went wrong is:
-Too serious
-Too rigid
-Uncomfortable seating
-Holier than thou attitudes
-Shirt sleeve Christians, wear their faith on their sleeves and will screw anyone to get ahead, or make a buck.
-Fire and brimstone
-Too many people worried about who is there instead of why.


I find myself humbled when I am out in the woods enjoying nature. I find myself stressed out at church. Where do think my prayers are sincerest?


You and I are on the exact same page. I am much more interested in being real than the phony stuff that goes on in many places the call themselves church. And believe me, if you find me in a church you will find me in clean jeans, ironed shirt and boots. That is the real me and that is what you will get.

Son said he felt strange there. People came and went and had their conversations an paid no attention to what was going on in the sanctuary.
Exactly!
The manner of the service doesn't matter as long as it teaches the truth and reaches the people. There are truths in the Bible that MUST be taught - things like the deity of Christ, no sex outside of marriage, the requirement for repentance, etc. As long as the format is built around the truth, it will succeed. Churches that teach things like God's acceptance of homosex may grow now, but they will fall and fall hard. God will not change His word to accommodate sin.
Our culture, both church and broader, is anti-form. I'm anti-formalism but to some extent to be anti-form is anti- (or at least non-) Christian, because our Lord instituted forms.

The thing that gets me about those who are militantly anti-form (and again, I'm not suggesting that all people who appreciation informal worship are anti-form, there is a difference) is that they always end up with a new form of their own. We saw that in the megachurch movement, and we see it now in the Emerging church movement. In being anti-form, they invent a new form.

Problem is, too often it bears little to no resemblance to historical Christianity. Is Christinianity a relationship with Christ that ought to reshape our views of the things and people around us? No doubt. Did Christ institute forms through which He conveys His love for and covenantal union with us? Absolutely. Does our sinfulness suggest that we ought to approach our God with fear and trembling? Hebrews 12 has something to say about that, right after it contrasts the Church to Mt. Sinai... it points out our need for reverence even as it points out the new relationship God has called us to in Christ.

Should we worship the forms over the One who instituted them? No more than we should worship the creation over the Creator, no.

Dang there are just so many ways to screw this up...
Quote
Dang there are just so many ways to screw this up...
You have that problem, too? grin
My wife's dad, a Protestant preacher most of his adult life, use to say, "It's getting to be show-biz anymore".

He often commented that nowadays more and more churches appear to be focused on trying to lure good, dependable, church-going folks that have already accepted Christ away from other churches than spreading the Word to those who have not yet accepted Christ as their Savior.
Glad you brought this up, a subject I've pondered for quite some time.

I've always liked the Acts 2 account of "The Church.."

I do wonder though how the common image of Sunday morning service connects to the common man. In most cases, no matter how we dress it, it doesn't connect in a relevant way.

I'd like to go fishing with Jesus, seems he knew which side of the boat the fish were on.
I'd like to visit a funeral with him too.
I'd like to listen to him teach in the wilderness, and around a campfire..

But what we usually get on Sunday mornings is usually a theatrical attempt to appeal to common people with all kinds of gimics, programs, and plastic imitations (yes, even coffee).

There is something in the statement; "If I be lifted up, I will draw all manner of men unto me..."

I don't know what the future holds, but He has never fit into temples built by the hands of men very well.
Originally Posted by Scott F
My son who lives in Idaho called me today and told me about his trip to a new (new to him) church in his community. It apparently is somewhat large. He does not know for sure as he never made it into the sanctuary. Seems there is a large room in front of the sanctuary with a twenty some foot coffee and espresso bar. You can sit at the bar of one of the many tables or couches in the room and watch what is going on inside on a flat screen TV.

I am just shaking my head and wondering where we went wrong.

If ya think about it whats not to like about that? Ever listen to Joel Osteen give him a try. I read a good many of your posts and you seem to go about in your life just as the message he preaches.smile
Right on... it is my understanding that the means of grace handed to us in the preaching of the word, that through the Holy Spirit we are brought into the very presence of Christ, just as in the supper we are fed the real body & blood of Christ and reminded of just how far He was willing to go to keep His covenant with His people.

I have an old friend who is decidedly non-Christian. He was looking around at churches before he made that decision and made an interesting comment to me after visiting worship with me. He said that it was nice to be in a place where they were intellectually honest about the fact that a sinner would not... SHOULD NOT feel "comfortable" in a worship service. Welcomed by other sinners yes, but "comfortable" IN the service?

Conviction isn't comfortable, but if it leads the sinner to grace...

He said he liked my congregation's worship because it just was what the Church ought to be... an unapologetic presentation of sin, law, death vs. holiness, grace, and new life which were clearly spoken of as only coming through the work of the Father in Christ and not as a result of our holiness (of which we have less than none anyway).

I tend to think that the Church should capitalize on its counter-cultural clinging to old forms even as it recontextualizes the message for a new generation. That is just another thing that sets us apart from the culture at large. Instead of tossing everything out in an effort to chase people, as if God hasn't been effectually calling a people unto Himself since Gen 3, we should hold fast to the message but consider new ways to communicate Holy, reverent awe to a new generation.

It is tough not to allow the medium through which we want to communicate the message to overpower and even contradict it. I see a lot of that in churches today. We're so ready to call stodgy self-righteousness for what it is (SIN which leads to death by relying upon yourself for salvation) that we throw out reverence and awe for the holy otherness of God.

I'm a younger person who many churches do this in an effort to "attract" me, and all it does is make me turn a cynical eye back toward those stodgy, self-righteous congregations. In the church capital of the midWest (Grand Rapids, MI) my family and I have had a tough time finding a congregation. I'd love to see something like what Michael Horton argues for...
When we elevate man over Christ, we have gone wrong.

Many have lost sight of the fact that a "Church" is the people who comprise a local body of believers.

When that body meets on Sunday, it is the meeting of the church, but the buildings/facilities/etc. are not the church.

What we meet to do is worship, and that is about the One worshiped - not the worshipers - and He has given instructions about how he wants to be worshiped.

Historically, this has been known as The Regulative Principle of Worship, and God is serious about it as the sons of Aaron can attest.

Our job is to look to His word and obey it about worship, not to innovate or somehow make it about the creature instead of the Creator.

What we do when we leave that meeting is where others are reached and the Gospel is advanced.

I believe we have gone wrong in defining "church" as something which it is not, and making the meeting of the church on the Lord's Day about us instead of Him.

I also believe we have gone wrong in accepting the premise that sinful, hypocritical Christians make Christianity invalid.

Churches will always be full of sinful hypocrites, but the One worshiped by true Christians is neither sinful nor hypocritical...That's why our focus needs to be on Him, and being conformed to His image, and not on conforming worship to something which pleases us.

If we do this, we will find that the things which please Him become the things which also please us as He gives us the desires of our hearts. As we mature as Christians, worship which is pleasing to God should be our delight and please us far beyond trends, gimmicks and exercises in short attention span theater which appeal to our flesh.

DJ
Ok I can just delete my comments after that...

Beautifully written and spot on.

Regulative Principle of Worship... my goodness...

God has ordained means and He will be faithful when the Church centers her focus upon Him and is faithful to those means.
I think it's easier for lots of men to choose to follow a man instead of God. Let that other guy do the teaching and I don't have to open my bible. People put their hired pastor on a pedestal and he knows it. Then he starts thinking more highly of himself and as he does, his followers seem to admire him even more. Next thing, God is clear out of the picture and everyone is focused on the man. Happens all the time.

I like the story about the old cowboy leaving someones church house when God asks him why he is leaving. Well, he says, they didn't want me in there. God says "don't feel too bad about it; they treat me the same way."
Originally Posted by DJTex
When we elevate man over Christ, we have gone wrong.

Many have lost sight of the fact that a "Church" is the people who comprise a local body of believers.

When that body meets on Sunday, it is the meeting of the church, but the buildings/facilities/etc. are not the church.

What we meet to do is worship, and that is about the One worshiped - not the worshipers - and He has given instructions about how he wants to be worshiped.

Historically, this has been known as The Regulative Principle of Worship, and God is serious about it as the sons of Aaron can attest.

Our job is to look to His word and obey it about worship, not to innovate or somehow make it about the creature instead of the Creator.

What we do when we leave that meeting is where others are reached and the Gospel is advanced.

I believe we have gone wrong in defining "church" as something which it is not, and making the meeting of the church on the Lord's Day about us instead of Him.

I also believe we have gone wrong in accepting the premise that sinful, hypocritical Christians make Christianity invalid.

Churches will always be full of sinful hypocrites, but the One worshiped by true Christians is neither sinful nor hypocritical...That's why our focus needs to be on Him, and being conformed to His image, and not on conforming worship to something which pleases us.

If we do this, we will find that the things which please Him become the things which also please us as He gives us the desires of our hearts. As we mature as Christians, worship which is pleasing to God should be our delight and please us far beyond trends, gimmicks and exercises in short attention span theater which appeal to our flesh.

DJ


This just need to be highlighted.
Where have we gone wrong?

We don't read and follow Paul's letters to the Churches. Simple as that.
It isn't a matter of where, but how

John 4:19-24 (KJV)

"The woman saith unto him, Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet. Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship. Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth."



Nor is it a matter of position

Four country preachers were discussing the "proper attitude" for prayer �

"On your knees, of course! That's why we call 'em 'prayer bones.'"

"The Bible speaks often of falling on one's face before the Lord. That's humility. I can't think of a more appropriate position for praying to our Lord."

"He's our Father. We're his children. Raising our hands and our faces to Him, as His children to our Father, is surely the most appropriate way to address Him!"

[No comment from Bro' Sam]

"Sam, what's your opinion?"

"Never give it much thought. But lookin' back, I think I done some o' my best prayin' while I was hangin' upside-down from a windmill."
The heart of a man that wants to find God will find him,It matters not where the man is or what he is doing.If you want him he is there.There is no place he does not stand and listen.
Cotton-field Sam loved God with all his heart and soul. The only church in his nape of Mississippi was a little country church near where he lived. He longed to be a part of the joyous throng that worshiped there every Sunday, but he knew that he would never be welcome there.

So he waited in the nearby woods until everyone was inside, then he crouched just outside an open window, where he could hear the sermon and sing the old familiar hymns right along with the saints inside.

One morning, he felt an arm on this shoulders. He looked around to see who had joined him, and beheld the smiling face of none other than Jesus Himself.

"Don't feel bad, Brother," Jesus said. "I've wanted to be in there ever since they built the place."
I don't believe the church was ever right.

http://www.amazon.com/Subtle-Power-Spiritual-Abuse/dp/1556611609
Religion, just like government, suffers from having gotten too large.
Mega churches, that are bastions of cult worship, and put the minister ahead of God, are a real problem for Christians.
Originally Posted by Mannlicher
Religion, just like government, suffers from having gotten too large.
Mega churches, that are bastions of cult worship, and put the minister ahead of God, are a real problem for Christians.

Exactly
When the newest building in town is the church, and the doors are only opened on Sunday morning,
there is a problem!
when the church gift shop is selling books and videos by the minister, and his his framed, autographed picture for sale, something is wrong.
Read "Forgotten God" by Francis Chan.
Matthew 28:18-20 "And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the age." Amen.

We are too busy "making churches" instead of "making disciples".

From the book I just finished reading "Building a Discipling Culture" by Mike Breen and Steve Cockram:
"Effective discipleship builds the Church, not the other way around. We need to understand the Church as the effect of discipleship and not the cause. If you set out to make disciples, you will inevitably build the church. If you set out to build the Church, there is no guarantee you will make disciples."
"The Lord has chosen people- not plans or programs - to spread his message. Yet somehow most of our attention and energy has shifted from making disciples to developing programs, buildings and budgets."

Modern churches are "spectator events". People attend with the attitude of "I want to be entertained and taught by the "professionals" but don't ask me to do anything".
I think our pastor summed it up well last weekend. His quote was something along the lines of "Some churches are like a football game. You have several thousand people that need exercise sitting down watching while 22 players that desperately need rest doing all the work".

WFR
Originally Posted by Ken Howell
It isn't a matter of where, but how

John 4:19-24 (KJV)

"The woman saith unto him, Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet. Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship. Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth."



Nor is it a matter of position

Four country preachers were discussing the "proper attitude" for prayer �

"On your knees, of course! That's why we call 'em 'prayer bones.'"

"The Bible speaks often of falling on one's face before the Lord. That's humility. I can't think of a more appropriate position for praying to our Lord."

"He's our Father. We're his children. Raising our hands and our faces to Him, as His children to our Father, is surely the most appropriate way to address Him!"

[No comment from Bro' Sam]

"Sam, what's your opinion?"

"Never give it much thought. But lookin' back, I think I done some o' my best prayin' while I was hangin' upside-down from a windmill."



Called "Fire Engine Religion". You scream for it when you need it.
Our VP of Finance introduced me to a highly placed official in a large bank which had just taken over a segment of the company's business.Fairly quickly , he got around to making a pitch for my personal banking business - he thought I was a lot more important than I was .

Our VP got a pained look on his face when I responded :

"Mister,every banker or preacher, who ever solicited my my business,lived to regret it ."

Church brings out the best in some folks and the worst in others.I'm in the latter catagory.
Does anybody besides myself take the time to put on slacks and a button up shirt for church anymore?

I can't stand everybody wearing their [bleep] flip flops and t-shirts to church.



Travis
"my house shall be called a house of prayer"--most of the current organized churches follow a teaching model with a clear division betwixt laity and the professional clergy.

there is no graduation...

IIRC, transactions within the worship center were also popular in Jesus' day. The blind and lame came in post cleaning as there was newly provided room....kids ran around and the clergy got upset.

If one were cynical, you could extend the analysis of transactions to the teaching model--the inclusion of the Old Testament tithing requirement as an expected support mechanism for weekly spiritual food.

No surprise about the obesity...
Think about it. A long time ago, the church considered pianos evil and "instruments of the devil".

People complain about not "doing" church some particular way. If we conducted church like the Apostles did, there would be no indoor plumbing, no electric lighting, no printed Bibles and no air conditioning.

Things change. People change. Clothing changes. We hear sermons in English. But the important part is The Bible, The Word Of God, and it's message. That is what is important. The message is the same throughout all the centuries.
CurDog45-70,

I think you'd do okay in one of my services. grin

Church services that are too stiff, bore me to tears. The ones that totally lack order are out of whack. Somewhere, there is the proper amount of liberty, and the proper amount of order.

"Where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty." (2Cor 3:17)

"For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace . . " (1Cor 14:33)

Give me a preacher that's plugged in to the Spirit of God, preaching plain from the Bible, sweating, and doing something -- sleeves rolled up spiritually, and a congregation that is truly looking for something to help them day by day, and you got church goin' on. Otherwise, you got a social gathering.

It don't have to be entertaining, or gramatically correct, with all the i's dotted and the t's crossed for God to get inside a heart and do something miraculous. He's God! That's the way he works! We're here for HIS pleasure, not the other way around! (Revelation 4:11) wink
Originally Posted by deflave
Does anybody besides myself take the time to put on slacks and a button up shirt for church anymore?

I can't stand everybody wearing their [bleep] flip flops and t-shirts to church.



Travis


Who are you to be critical of what others wear to church?

In my opinion getting dressed up for church is pointless because God sees you naked twenty four seven.
Originally Posted by deflave
Does anybody besides myself take the time to put on slacks and a button up shirt for church anymore?

I can't stand everybody wearing their [bleep] flip flops and t-shirts to church.



Travis


Dont fit, dood. jus sayin.
Originally Posted by Sauer200
Originally Posted by deflave
Does anybody besides myself take the time to put on slacks and a button up shirt for church anymore?

I can't stand everybody wearing their [bleep] flip flops and t-shirts to church.



Travis


Who are you to be critical of what others wear to church?

In my opinion getting dressed up for church is pointless because God sees you naked twenty four seven.


Who am I? Nobody. I just can't stand when people dress like they're going to eat at the Golden Corral when they're going to church. Same for people that stand in front of a judge and look like they just came from the beach.



Travis
[quote=the_shootist]CurDog45-70,

I think you'd do okay in one of my services. grin

I'm sure I would. And that is to your credit , not mine .

Actually , I'm a member of a small rural Baptist church , but they didn't come looking for me ; I found them.

I figure if you are going to attend a church service you ought to throw some $$ in the basket.You are responsible for the stewardship of that money.If you think it is going to be used wrongly , you can quit going or try to get them to change what they are doing.

Those folks are satisfied with what's happening to the $$$ they throw in , so trying to get them to change is not the proper course of action.My rule about church attendence is this :

Go, and don't bitch , or , don't go , and don't bitch .


Originally Posted by Swampman700
I don't believe the church was ever right. �

Blessed art thou, Swampman700, for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but our Father which is in Heaven.
Originally Posted by the_shootist
CurDog45-70,

I think you'd do okay in one of my services. grin

Church services that are too stiff, bore me to tears. The ones that totally lack order are out of whack. Somewhere, there is the proper amount of liberty, and the proper amount of order.

"Where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty." (2Cor 3:17)

"For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace . . " (1Cor 14:33)

Give me a preacher that's plugged in to the Spirit of God, preaching plain from the Bible, sweating, and doing something -- sleeves rolled up spiritually, and a congregation that is truly looking for something to help them day by day, and you got church goin' on. Otherwise, you got a social gathering.

It don't have to be entertaining, or gramatically correct, with all the i's dotted and the t's crossed for God to get inside a heart and do something miraculous. He's God! That's the way he works! We're here for HIS pleasure, not the other way around! (Revelation 4:11) wink


Amen!
Been going to "Cowboy Church". What I call Jesus off the ala-carte menu. Has all the basics but none of the frills. Sundays sermon was accompanied by 3 feed buckets, where the pastor taught that you had to help open peoples eyes to get them to see what is right in front of them. Simple but effective ministry. Church always closes with the kids coming up and singing Happy Trails!

My understanding is they are spreading all over the US and are the fastest growing church in the country. If your looking for a simple, back to the basics church, give them a try.

TM
I am with DJTex on this one.

In addition to what he stated, I would also add that churches have become entirely too dependent on money. Churches spend a lot of money on their buildings, their furnishings, their coffee bars, etc.

When a church has a debt to service, it needs income to service it. Income comes from attendees/members. In order to attract and keep people in the church, the church has to "be attractive" and actually cater to the desires of people whose lives need changing. So the church actually responds to the demand curve set by the people, or it faces the prospect of fewer people--which, of course, means less money!

So, whether any modern church will admit it or not, the number one goal of the modern church is to guard and perpetuate the continued existence of the church entity. The entity, not Jesus, is paramount. Churches do what they have to do to keep givers giving, because church leadership wants to keep the business going. Preaching the gospel is secondary. I must sound cynical for saying that, but I have developed this thought over many years and believe it to be true in the vast majority of churches. Having sat through countless meetings regarding church finance and planning, I truly believe churches are mainly concerned about keeping the church going. And no church has ever realized this critical shift in priorities (or at least ever admitted it).

Churches are too willing to accept "a little pollution" in exchange for keeping the entity thriving.
Originally Posted by CRS
ScottF,

I think some of today's worshipper's like a little more laid back atmosphere.

I think where it went wrong is:
-Too serious
-Too rigid
-Uncomfortable seating
-Holier than thou attitudes
-Shirt sleeve Christians, wear their faith on their sleeves and will screw anyone to get ahead, or make a buck.
-Fire and brimstone
-Too many people worried about who is there instead of why.


I find myself humbled when I am out in the woods enjoying nature. I find myself stressed out at church. Where do think my prayers are sincerest?


I don't think God cares if you're comfortable or not. I believe He cares about your heart.
We have a cowboy church in our community as well, and the fellowship where I go and help is in an old truck warehouse that does not look or feel like a traditional church on purpose. Some come dressed up a bit, some in jeans, some in camo head to toe. What is important is that they COME and fellowship and hear Gods word clearly and correctly expounded with a strong emphasis on application. And yes, we have a coffe bar in the foyer, with no rules against bringing your coffee into the main meeting area.
"But who prays for Satan? Who, in eighteen centuries, has had the common humanity to pray for the one sinner that needed it most?" - Mark Twain

You got THAT right .A few years ago the wife and I , having just moved , attended the largest Baptist church in Wichita Falls for an Easter Service.

The "service " consisted of a power point presentation about the new Building project and the attendent financing.And that's ALL the service was !

As proof that this type of promotion pays off , the pastor of the church was "called" to one of the [ if not THE ] largest Baptist churches in Dallas not long afterwards.
THAT, is sad.

I, too have been on a few boards and such and been to a pile of meetings. Church body's with the right priorities (preaching and teaching Christ and the REAL good news, period) are hard to find but ARE out there. We, as sincere believers need to find these works and support them or - START one. Not a 'denomination' or another cash cow self serving entity but a true outreach oriented Gathering of believers who are mutually focused on fullfilling the great commision of making Disciples and following Christ. Enabling and equipping and uplifting one another toard these things in the process. At the same time worshiping God in our fellowship as well, with hearts and lives and all that we are focused on God, genuinly offering up our meager attempts at worship the best we know how without regard to what we used to like or prefer but rather, true and vital Worship of the only one who deserves it.
Originally Posted by bxroads
Read "Forgotten God" by Francis Chan.


Christian book recommendations from a guy who posts nude pics of his old lady on the net. [bleep] classic.
tff. Heh.
Originally Posted by Bauer
Originally Posted by bxroads
Read "Forgotten God" by Francis Chan.


Christian book recommendations from a guy who posts nude pics of his old lady on the net. [bleep] classic.



A lot has changed in my life my friend, which is even more reason to investigate the books that helped me. Give me a call and I'll be happy to tell you all about it. I have a testimony that is anything but boring. 334-795-3596 Clint

You might also want to read up on David........
"Crazy Love" is another good one to read by Francis Chan. Nate Larkin's "Samson and the Pirate Monks" helped me a lot too.

Church has become a place where people like to talk about the trials they have overcome. Church should be a place for support to get through current trials, but very can handle that.
Originally Posted by deflave
Does anybody besides myself take the time to put on slacks and a button up shirt for church anymore?

I can't stand everybody wearing their [bleep] flip flops and t-shirts to church.



Travis


I think God wants the same person on Sunday as he has the rest of the week. I've seen far to many Christians take off their "spirituality" when they take off their Sunday Suit.
Originally Posted by Scott F
I am not one who thinks God's people can only worship in a formal church setting. In some cases I have a harder time in a formal church setting that I do with a bunch of like minded people sitting around a real campfire with coffee in their hands and smoke in their eyes.

I just thought the coffee bar thing a bit strange.
I'm with you. Many mega churches it seems have fallen hook line and sinker for "ways of the world" and have watered down scripture terribly to justify any and everything. If it feels good, God approves (apparently). Everybody's balance for what is 'right' in a sanctuary is different. I personally could care less about the trappings of the actual building, it's the conduct inside the building that really leaves me shaking my head sometimes. frown
Originally Posted by Ken Howell
It isn't a matter of where, but how

John 4:19-24 (KJV)

"The woman saith unto him, Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet. Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship. Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth."



Nor is it a matter of position

Four country preachers were discussing the "proper attitude" for prayer �

"On your knees, of course! That's why we call 'em 'prayer bones.'"

"The Bible speaks often of falling on one's face before the Lord. That's humility. I can't think of a more appropriate position for praying to our Lord."

"He's our Father. We're his children. Raising our hands and our faces to Him, as His children to our Father, is surely the most appropriate way to address Him!"

[No comment from Bro' Sam]

"Sam, what's your opinion?"

"Never give it much thought. But lookin' back, I think I done some o' my best prayin' while I was hangin' upside-down from a windmill."


Prayer works pretty good when you have an Oldsmobile upside down on top of you.
Originally Posted by bxroads
Originally Posted by deflave
Does anybody besides myself take the time to put on slacks and a button up shirt for church anymore?

I can't stand everybody wearing their [bleep] flip flops and t-shirts to church.



Travis


I think God wants the same person on Sunday as he has the rest of the week. I've seen far to many Christians take off their "spirituality" when they take off their Sunday Suit.


Judge and be judged. Glad you're on the straight and narrow. Could you repost those pics?
if i have an issue, the pastor that married my wife and i lives on the other end of the block and if i need to talk i can help him with yard work and we will talk......tend to avoid churches as much as possible.....
Originally Posted by Old_Toot
Originally Posted by deflave
Does anybody besides myself take the time to put on slacks and a button up shirt for church anymore?

I can't stand everybody wearing their [bleep] flip flops and t-shirts to church.



Travis


Dont fit, dood. jus sayin.
Yeah, talk about irony! crazy
Although I personally also find overly casual dress disrespectful, I don't believe it is addressed in the 2nd or 3rd (depending on version) of the 10 commandments...
My church is as Godly as ever.

[Linked Image]
Originally Posted by safariman
I wrote a play that we ( a local non denominational and non traditional church and I) put on Easter of 2010 and hope to put on again in 2012 Called "To hell with the Devil!" that was so loaud and graphic that we did not allow under 12 to stay n the building. A Heavy metal Easter show with an AR15 as a door prize for attenders!

Blessings,

A tatooe'd, rockin follower of Christ. Imperfect for sure, but a forgiven and appreciative of Gods Grace despite my depravity and iniquity.


Now that's a church I want to go to!!

I once went snowboarding with a bunch of church members here in San Diego. It was so over the top it just freaked me out. The leader of the group had us form a prayer circle out in the parking lot before heading out, all holding hands. Driving up to the slopes it was 'thank you Jesus for this snow', 'thank God for a glorious day', 'thank you Jesus for keeping us safe', 'Jesus...', 'Jesus...', 'Jesus...'. I never went back. It seemed artificial and forced to me.

I surf and feel more connected when I'm out in nature.

___________________
Eric
Originally Posted by Sauer200
Originally Posted by deflave
Does anybody besides myself take the time to put on slacks and a button up shirt for church anymore?

I can't stand everybody wearing their [bleep] flip flops and t-shirts to church.



Travis

Who are you to be critical of what others wear to church?

In my opinion getting dressed up for church is pointless because God sees you naked twenty four seven.
i have read scripture revealing God appreciates His people showing Him deferance
Try attending a service in Key West, Fla.
Originally Posted by antlers
"But who prays for Satan? Who, in eighteen centuries, has had the common humanity to pray for the one sinner that needed it most?" - Mark Twain

I pray for his henchman, obama. 'Dear Lord, Please bless him with the Holy Spirit and if You don't, then Psalm 109 vs 8. And Lord, i have a real problem with loving.... Amen .... On another note-the Lord is not a fan of slovenlyness
Originally Posted by eyeball
Originally Posted by Sauer200
Originally Posted by deflave
Does anybody besides myself take the time to put on slacks and a button up shirt for church anymore?

I can't stand everybody wearing their [bleep] flip flops and t-shirts to church.



Travis

Who are you to be critical of what others wear to church?

In my opinion getting dressed up for church is pointless because God sees you naked twenty four seven.
i have read scripture revealing God appreciates His people showing Him deferance


Ok lets argue semantics.How do you define deference?

I still say that people are more worried about what their peers wear to church than what they are in church for. This is one of many reasons that I do not attend church.



I wish more people would forget what they've been taught about Christianity, then read the bible from cover to cover several times with a fresh perspective. If a person had never been exposed to Christianity and read the bible several times, and believed in it, how disappointed would they be at the first church they attended?
I bring my imperfect self to my imperfect church at least every single week regardless of what my selfish desire may be on that day.
The myriad of reasons people find to not attend church surely has Christ taking another lashing... frown
Scripture is clear. But then people read (and ignore) all sorts of things in scripture.
Originally Posted by EricM
Originally Posted by safariman
I wrote a play that we ( a local non denominational and non traditional church and I) put on Easter of 2010 and hope to put on again in 2012 Called "To hell with the Devil!" that was so loaud and graphic that we did not allow under 12 to stay n the building. A Heavy metal Easter show with an AR15 as a door prize for attenders!

Blessings,

A tatooe'd, rockin follower of Christ. Imperfect for sure, but a forgiven and appreciative of Gods Grace despite my depravity and iniquity.


Now that's a church I want to go to!!

I once went snowboarding with a bunch of church members here in San Diego. It was so over the top it just freaked me out. The leader of the group had us form a prayer circle out in the parking lot before heading out, all holding hands. Driving up to the slopes it was 'thank you Jesus for this snow', 'thank God for a glorious day', 'thank you Jesus for keeping us safe', 'Jesus...', 'Jesus...', 'Jesus...'. I never went back. It seemed artificial and forced to me.

I surf and feel more connected when I'm out in nature.

___________________
Eric




Thanks, I think a lot of folks from here could get along quite nicely where I attend. Loved doing the play, and the few who were against it in the beginning are its most ardent supporters now. We like to say that we don't expect a man to check his brains, testosterone or guns at the door. Kind of a whole new meaning to come as you are and as God made you.
Churches and so-called 'preachers' are a dime a dozen! Just drive across North Louisiana and observe how many church buildings you see! THE WORD....is pretty scarce; fire and brimstone preaching is a thing of the past! Those supposedly 'preaching' are fearful that the 'pass plate' will go lacking therefore the congregation is given tepid soup in the way of a sermon; no bite, no sting, "we must not upset the people"! The pulpit is no place for political correctness and the Devil is grinning over the shoulder of those of the cloth...that take this approach!
Where we have gone wrong is thinking we can find a perfect church. There are none for a simple reason-we are an imperfect people. I look for a church with a pastor who preaches the whole Bible (not one who is politically correct and afraid his sermon might get on someone's toes). I look for people I can enjoy being around without expecting them to please me all the time or agree with all my views.

To find fault with God because some Christians fall short of God's teachings is an excuse for many to shun church.
Scott- a few random thoughts in no particular order.

I've known more than a couple churches that had over flow rooms, with big screens etc. In the past our church has had to set one up for big days. I'd think that the room can be used for over flow as well for classes etc.

I see nothing wrong with it, however would prefer that's used mainly for big days. Poing being, if they can sit in the sanctuary then that's where I'd have them. If not, I'm more than glad that they are in attendence and hearing the Word.

So to me the over flow room makes sense. Now what doesn't make sense is that they weren't greeted. I run the Greeter committee at my church and while I'm sure we miss a visitor from time to time we work awfully hard to get to know them just a bit.

And of course some people subtly let us know that they don't wanna have much contact, and that they just wanna come and hear the Word check us out and leave.

But, for the ones who are open to conversation I lead with the Nordstrom ideal. That being, after you've been to our church for the first time we'll know (and remember) your first name and then one or two things about you. Where you're from, what you do for work, name of your kids, what you like to do for fun and such. And, when they come back and hit our door we welcome them by name.

Lastly, I think of it along this way.

Never change the Doctrine, that's first and formost. But, in the changing world that we live in I do feel that in some ways we need to find a way to appeal to and draw people in to worship. Now I'm not numbers driven and things like that when it comes to this. But I do wish to have as many people as possible come to know Christ and be Saved.

The book Amazing Insights of the Unchurched is fun to read as is 5 Star Church. Once again, never change doctrine!

I tend to look at it this way. If your son, your wife, your Dad or someone you love were to attend a church with a coffee bar and over flow room and as a result of it they went back to church again and again and at some point in time they got Saved wouldn't you be happy?

IMO it's better for them to get in and hear the Word than it is for them to stay away and perhaps not build a relationship with Christ, and maybe come and go from this earth never being Saved and end up in the smoking section for eternity..

Just a thought.

Take care and have an awesome week!

Dober


James 1:19
Originally Posted by Sharpsman
Churches and so-called 'preachers' are a dime a dozen! Just drive across North Louisiana and observe how many church buildings you see! THE WORD....is pretty scarce; fire and brimstone preaching is a thing of the past! Those supposedly 'preaching' are fearful that the 'pass plate' will go lacking therefore the congregation is given tepid soup in the way of a sermon; no bite, no sting, "we must not upset the people"! The pulpit is no place for political correctness and the Devil is grinning over the shoulder of those of the cloth...that take this approach!


Spot on. I never got paid to pastor the church. Worked better that way. We could support more missionaries and do more for God than paying me a salary I am capable of earning elsewhere. wink
Originally Posted by LeonHitchcox
Where we have gone wrong is thinking we can find a perfect church. There are none for a simple reason-we are an imperfect people.


Heard it put another way, "If you find a perfect church, don't go there; You'll spoil it." grin

FWIW - I would never go to a church that doesn't have electric guitars.

Originally Posted by bxroads
Originally Posted by Bauer
Originally Posted by bxroads
Read "Forgotten God" by Francis Chan.


Christian book recommendations from a guy who posts nude pics of his old lady on the net. [bleep] classic.



A lot has changed in my life my friend, which is even more reason to investigate the books that helped me. Give me a call and I'll be happy to tell you all about it. I have a testimony that is anything but boring. 334-795-3596 Clint

You might also want to read up on David........

It's easy to point fingers at people that may have made some mistakes, but kudo's to you on your response to the finger pointer, people change for the better when God's involved!
I have been in over 130 churches in my life. Preached as a lay preacher for pastors on vacation, sick days, churches without a pastor, etc. Mostly in Northern N Y State.

I usually found folks in varying degrees of imperfection so I fit right in. I never failed to find the Lord's presence there. Probably had something to do with "where two or three gather together in My name, there I am in the midst of them." Or maybe it is just because I was more focused on His presence then their imperfections.

Was in a Florida Mega church this last Easter. What a production! I guess that folks find Christ there also. At least that is their story and I have no reason to doubt them.

I certainly am a flawed man and it always amazes me that Jesus Christ would call me to follow Him and then call me to lead and teach others to do the same. There is a vast drive in my life. It is to know Jesus Christ,to make Him known and to help others to do the same.

Seems to me that He calls imperfect folks together thus creating imperfect churches who imperfectly attempt to share what they have found. (The Perfect One, Jesus Christ the Lord God Almighty Himself) They even appear to be willing to share it with those whom consider themselves to be far more perfect.

Yeah, the church has problems. Did from the start. Still does but it will be here on the Earth 'till Jesus returns and I am one happy guy that Jesus Christ sought out this gross sinner, doesn't give up on him, patiently works on him every day, and will someday get me where He wants me. Till then I am pleased with being associated with the imperfect church because them folks are my folks. For the most part doin' church as best as they know how. I admire, love and believe in them. After all, my Savior and Lord made them a part of His family just because He loves them, warts and all. You too.

Thanks

Jim

p.s. There is one guy I have met here that I would love to meet in person some day and probably would fit in with his folks just fine, "the shootist." This guy is real.
Scott, a Church is not a building, it is a people gathered in His name where ever they might be. But they MUST be gathered in His name for the sharing of His Grace, not coffee & TV.

Just my two cents worth on the matter.
I have yet to read the entire thread but Scott your response to this got me thinking. "If you find me in a church you will find me in, clean jeans..." yup that is how I feel as well.

"Son said he felt strange there. People came and went and had their conversations an paid no attention to what was going on in the sanctuary" This is the one that really got me to thinking.

In my opinion these people felt they had to be at church because that is what their parents told them to do. I went to church 2 weeks ago for my new to me nephew's confirmation, I fully expected to spend the entire service sitting on an uncomfortable pew.

I was wrong, the Pastor was speaking just like I do, and the thing was he was not speaking to the congregation, he was speaking to those 11 kids, because it was their day. He told those kids that statistics say he will see 2 of them on a regular basis, because in their eyes, they "graduated" There was much more, but the thing I got out of that service was, I was one of the 9 that did not go back. And second, by speaking to those young adults, he was speaking to everyone.

But it also made me think about what if I had a Pastor like this guy was? Would that have changed my ideas on church?

I wish this church was closer, I would probobly attend some services.


Scott;
I'm hoping this finds you well and safely off the highway for another night my friend.

The thread you've begun and the questions and comments that have been raised made for enlightening reading. I really appreciated what a lot of the posters had to say, so thank you for sharing your viewpoints.

If memory serves me correctly, I related to you the story of the lady physiotherapist that I met when I ran my left hand through the table saw?

Anyway the upshot of that experience was the revelation to me that sometimes, if I'm a true servant and I'm doing His will, I may experience things that aren't even about me - I'm just the conduit, the vessel so to speak - you know?

Could it be then, that if the Lord chooses to use us, when our family gathers on Sunday in that little church on the right as you hit the north side of Oliver, that we're there to be used as a feed conduit for others as well as be fed ourselves?

Now in no way do I mean to say that I've arrived spiritually and don't need to be fed. You've met me and realize how very human I am, so that isn't it at all.

I have also found peace - more or less - with the concept that I can't earn and will never of my own accord deserve anything from God either.

But perhaps when my wife sings as part of the worship team, or our daughters are working the nursery, the powerpoint, or manning the drums (eldest has been asked to drum now cool) it can add something to the other folks' life by allowing them to better worship and commune with God that day?

There are a lot of folks searching these days, which is good. Then again, I'm certain that the places most would be comfortable trying to find God would, in all probability be an uncomfortable place for me with my jeans and cowboy boots.

However it seems to me more often lately that it isn't about my comfort. Though I seem to need frequent reminders, He loves them too and if it's His will, may just have this redneck slated as a way to reach them.

As others have put it, much more succinctly and aptly than I, the foundation for any gathering, be it a church with pews or smoky campfire, must be in the Word of God.

You know me well enough to know that my comfort level is at the campfire with the smoke in my eyes alongside you. But that doesn't always appear to be where I'm always supposed to be.

As always, you and yours are in my thoughts and prayers Scott. I remember you folks and the other prayer requests from life, including those here on the 'Fire on my morning drive in at 4:30 while I'm dodging wildlife on the back side of Skaha Lake.

Have a safe week my friend and thanks again for making me do a little healthy soul searching this evening.

Dwayne
deflave, I doubt Jesus had a button down shirt, and I believe His sandals were closer to flip-flops than to a pair of wing-tip shoes. That said, I tend to wear a snap type western shirt, newer blue jeans, a tie, and my dress western boots to church (Formal Church). Most often, I'm babysitting livestock, and enjoying God's church in the great outdoors on Sunday (critters need feed & water & care 24/7) Jesus & I have an ongoing, GREAT relationship!
Mark
Mat 9:11 When the Pharisees saw this, they asked his disciples, "Why does your teacher eat with tax collectors and �sinners�?"
12 On hearing this, Jesus said, "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick.

In this world, we'll never be fully healed. Jesus came to heal us completely in the next.
WOW! What a great bunch of responses and lot's to ponder. It surprises me just how much we all agree. Seems most if not all of us have been lead down what ever path to the same spot.

In my walk I have been taught many lessons that did not necessarily come from a pulpit. As an elder and Council member of what started as a church of around fifty and became a church of nearly 2,000 I learned a lot. Now keep in mind I know I have been called to worship in small churches. God grew that church and the leadership just tried to keep up. That church never advertised, never had a big red thermometer showing finances or growth and never planned to be what they became. It was all God. Today that church has an accredited Bible college, a ministry to help pastors wounded in God's service, and has planted about a dozen new churches. While I can see the hand of God in what happened there it is not a place I would attend today. It is more showbiz than I can handle.

When my wife and I started attending a small church in Central Oregon the pastor met with us for a get to know you kind of thing. In the discussion my wife said something that put to words exactly what was in my heart. She said she was not interested in a church that practiced any of the three Ps- Programs, Performance and Perfection. The pastor asked her to repeat that as he wanted to write it down. It was exactly hat he was feeling but had not put it into words.

We will soon begin the quest to find a place to worship. I am not concerned about what the sign says in front of the building. Denominations do not impress me. Fancy buildings do not impress me. Programs, Performance and Perfection do not impress me. God impresses me, truth impresses me, and real impresses me.

I am getting excited for the hunt. I pray there will be good things at the end of our quest. I am looking forward to being used by God.

Thank guys for your thoughts and input. I cannot remember a post going this far without insults or harsh words. You have made me proud to be a part.

With that I am taking this tire old body to bed. Fifteen and a quarter hours in a truck today had done this old guy in.
I long to see (and I think that Jesus does, too) Jesus's active followers operate corporately as they did between the Day of Pentecost and the late fourth century Anno Domini � when they numbered in the tens of thousands in Jerusalem alone at the close of the first century and had spread-out over the rest of the then-known world.

� congregating in twos and fews whenever and wherever the Holy Spirit led them together in the Name (authority) of Jesus, to do whatever He bade them do right then

� edified by the Holy Spirit through the agency and counsel of their council of local presbuteroi, episcopoi, and poimeni

� subject to the direction, guidance, and rule of no distant "authority" but only to God through the Holy Spirit and their council of local presbuteroi, episcopoi, and poimeni

� doing the works that Jesus did, as He promised that we would � healing the sick, comforting the afflicted, casting-out demons, etc




I don't expect any of that to happen on Sunday mornings in The Little Brown Church in the Wildwood or in that gleaming white building with the steeple, stained-glass windows, and gurgling organ.
Originally Posted by mark shubert
deflave, I doubt Jesus had a button down shirt, and I believe His sandals were closer to flip-flops than to a pair of wing-tip shoes. That said, I tend to wear a snap type western shirt, newer blue jeans, a tie, and my dress western boots to church (Formal Church). Most often, I'm babysitting livestock, and enjoying God's church in the great outdoors on Sunday (critters need feed & water & care 24/7) Jesus & I have an ongoing, GREAT relationship!
Mark


Jesus probably didn't smell too great back in the day either. But I'd still like people in modern day society to take a shower before entering the fellowship hall.

I'm glad you have a good relationship with him.

Travis
Originally Posted by deflave
Originally Posted by mark shubert
deflave, I doubt Jesus had a button down shirt, and I believe His sandals were closer to flip-flops than to a pair of wing-tip shoes. That said, I tend to wear a snap type western shirt, newer blue jeans, a tie, and my dress western boots to church (Formal Church). Most often, I'm babysitting livestock, and enjoying God's church in the great outdoors on Sunday (critters need feed & water & care 24/7) Jesus & I have an ongoing, GREAT relationship!
Mark


Jesus probably didn't smell too great back in the day either. But I'd still like people in modern day society to take a shower before entering the fellowship hall. I'm glad you have a good relationship with him.

Travis


Anything else you want?
What is the intent with relaxed church dress codes, coffee shops in churches, etc.? Would you see a coffee shop in a rural church in Texas? Would you see dusty boots and Wranglers at a church in downtown Seattle? Probably not. But the point is that the church is trying to become more accessible to the community around it. Is a poor person going to buy a suit just to visit a church in which all of the members dress up? Is the poor person going to visit a church in worn out jeans when everyone else is wearing a suit? Is God going to punish a church leader because they encouraged a coffee shop and relaxed dress code with intentions of bringing people to God to the glorification of God? Is that for a person to judge?

I think it's ridiculous to expect the younger generation to want to sit in the same style of worship that you old farts are used to.

That being said, I've seen some stupid stupid stupid stuff during worship services,from churches that just try way to hard.

I know what style I like, and I just happen to go to a church that has that style.
Originally Posted by bxroads
Is that for a person to judge?


It depends on the type of judgment. The bible calls on us to make choices everyday. Those choices are, in fact, "judgments" to a degree. 1 Cor 5:11 tells to avoid somebody "who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindlier. with such a man do not even eat." (emphasis added). So, just as church critics despise hypocrisy, so does God! And in order to obey the instruction, the person has to make a judgment.

Judgments generally are not forbidden by the Bible. Many verses call on the believers to use judgment or to make a right judgment. However, men are not called to judge the world, make judgments in disputable matters, or final judgments as to another's salvation.

So with church formats--loud guitars, shorts, coffee bars, building programs--my heart tells me it's proper for people to approve or disapprove for themselves as to whether a church style is appropriate. But, I would hesitate to pronounce/teach/proclaim to others that coffee bars are from the devil and any church that has one is doomed/evil/bad.
LOL, Calvin and I were typing at the same time, and I think he said what I was trying to say--he just said it plainly! smile
Quote
So with church formats--loud guitars, shorts, coffee bars, building programs--my heart tells me it's proper for people to approve or disapprove for themselves as to whether a church style is appropriate. But, I would hesitate to pronounce/teach/proclaim to others that coffee bars are from the devil and any church that has one is doomed/evil/bad.


I think we are on the same page. If the bible doesn't address the issue and the laws of the land do not address the issue then its up for a person to decide what is right for their own person and not bestow their decision on anyone else.
You 'decide' with your money.
I can get by a lot of styles of worship and types of dress as long as the Church is about Jesus and His whole Word. As soon as concessions are made to a either to attract numbers, or any other reason, I'm out of there.
As my one time Pastor said,"The Bible is a offensive book. It tells me I am a no good rotten sinner, going to Hell, and there is not a thing I can do on my own about it."
Fortunately for all of us it doesn't stop there but that is the basic understanding anyone needs to repent and turn their lives over to Jesus.
Too many churches today preach Jesus as just a friend and not Lord,IMO.

It's easier to like a buddy who blesses than a Boss Who expects.
Originally Posted by Ken Howell
It's easier to like a buddy who blesses than a Boss Who expects.


And you don't SURRENDER to buddies , which is really what the whole deal is about.
Jesus was just too uptight when he threw the money changers out of the temple. He should have just chilled out. It's ALL good....
....and he preceded to curse a fig tree shortly thereafter because it bear no fruit.
Are you conversant in Greek, Hebrew and Aramic?
I'm not conversant in Greek, Hebrew, or Aramic and I even struggle with English.
Originally Posted by bxroads
What is the intent with relaxed church dress codes, coffee shops in churches, etc.? Would you see a coffee shop in a rural church in Texas? Would you see dusty boots and Wranglers at a church in downtown Seattle? Probably not. But the point is that the church is trying to become more accessible to the community around it. Is a poor person going to buy a suit just to visit a church in which all of the members dress up? Is the poor person going to visit a church in worn out jeans when everyone else is wearing a suit? Is God going to punish a church leader because they encouraged a coffee shop and relaxed dress code with intentions of bringing people to God to the glorification of God? Is that for a person to judge?

You don't realize what a slippery slope that is? That's the exact same reasoning some churches have ordained openly homosexual bishops. It's NOT all good.
We all have different relationships with Christ (obviously). Respect and humility I suppose manifest itself in different ways. Even the apostles couldn't stay up an hour with Him in his time of need. Obviously just getting people to go to church for an hour once a week is way too burdensome for some (and the excuses are endless). If you can't present yourself in the house of the Lord at LEAST as well as you would if invited over to a friend's house for a special dinner then something just seems way out of whack.

Women preachers & deacons seem pretty common. This is completely off the Word.
Originally Posted by GeauxLSU

You don't realize what a slippery slope that is? That's the exact same reasoning some churches have ordained openly homosexual bishops. It's NOT all good.


Originally Posted by bxroads
If the bible doesn't address the issue and the laws of the land do not address the issue then its up for a person to decide what is right for their own person and not bestow their decision on anyone else.



Homosexuality is condemned by the bible. I agree, it is not good.
If a man surrenders , nothing else matters.If a man can't surrender , nothing else matters.

It REALLY is that simple.

Jesus is alive and well today and speaks to a surrendered heart , not an ego infected head.

The surrendered heart recognizes neither Greek , Hebrew , Aramic , or English but rather the Master's voice.
Originally Posted by bxroads
Originally Posted by GeauxLSU
Originally Posted by bxroads
What is the intent with relaxed church dress codes, coffee shops in churches, etc.? Would you see a coffee shop in a rural church in Texas? Would you see dusty boots and Wranglers at a church in downtown Seattle? Probably not. But the point is that the church is trying to become more accessible to the community around it. Is a poor person going to buy a suit just to visit a church in which all of the members dress up? Is the poor person going to visit a church in worn out jeans when everyone else is wearing a suit? Is God going to punish a church leader because they encouraged a coffee shop and relaxed dress code with intentions of bringing people to God to the glorification of God? Is that for a person to judge?

You don't realize what a slippery slope that is? That's the exact same reasoning some churches have ordained openly homosexual bishops. It's NOT all good.
We all have different relationships with Christ (obviously). Respect and humility I suppose manifest itself in different ways. Even the apostles couldn't stay up an hour with Him in his time of need. Obviously just getting people to go to church for an hour once a week is way too burdensome for some (and the excuses are endless). If you can't present yourself in the house of the Lord at LEAST as well as you would if invited over to a friend's house for a special dinner then something just seems way out of whack.



Originally Posted by bxroads
If the bible doesn't address the issue and the laws of the land do not address the issue then its up for a person to decide what is right for their own person and not bestow their decision on anyone else.



Homosexuality is condemned by the bible. I agree, it is not good.
Neither is catering to the ways of the world.
How about this. I saw a kid in church once that was wearing this Tshirt.
[Linked Image]

Is that OK? Why or why not?

How about if people decide they want to go to church buck naked? Fine?
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If you can't present yourself in the house of the Lord at LEAST as well as you would if invited over to a friend's house for a special dinner then something just seems way out of whack.
While I believe I am usually appropriate socially, my friends would not be offended if I were to answer an invitation with a hole in my jeans or a stain on my shirt. I don't believe my Lord would either.

1 Samuel 16:7 But the Lord said unto Samuel, Look not on his countenance, or on the height of his stature; because I have refused him: for the Lord seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the Lord looketh on the heart.
KJV
Originally Posted by curdog4570
If a man surrenders , nothing else matters.If a man can't surrender , nothing else matters.

It REALLY is that simple.

Jesus is alive and well today and speaks to a surrendered heart , not an ego infected head.

The surrendered heart recognizes neither Greek , Hebrew , Aramic , or English but rather the Master's voice.


Curdog, you nailed it. I have believed in God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit my entire life. Only recently have I surrendered and only after being pursued by God for many years. He finally got VERY persuasive. Once you truly surrender to God your life is changed.
Originally Posted by RickyD
Quote
If you can't present yourself in the house of the Lord at LEAST as well as you would if invited over to a friend's house for a special dinner then something just seems way out of whack.
While I believe I am usually appropriate socially, my friends would not be offended if I were to answer an invitation with a hole in my jeans or a stain on my shirt. I don't believe my Lord would either.

1 Samuel 16:7 But the Lord said unto Samuel, Look not on his countenance, or on the height of his stature; because I have refused him: for the Lord seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the Lord looketh on the heart.
KJV
A bit out of context no? I believe we can all agree that a man has no control of his physical characteristics.
Again, Jesus should have just left the money changers alone. Whatever current day decides is fine in a house of worship is fine with Him. We don't want to offend anyone, we don't want to suggest that anything is wrong. The bible clearly says everything is ok. If it feels good, do it.
If the best you have to attend church in is jeans with a hole in them and a stained shirt, you'll be the best dressed person there and the Lord will surely be smiling.
Originally Posted by GeauxLSU
Neither is catering to the ways of the world.
How about this. I saw a kid in church once that was wearing this Tshirt.
[Linked Image]

Is that OK? Why or why not?

How about if people decide they want to go to church buck naked? Fine?


Regarding the t shirt, I'll try my best to show the person love while also letting him know that the shirt is offensive to a lot of people, and let God deal with the rest. When I have to face God on judgement day I don't think I'll have to explain why I didn't kick someone out of church but would hate to be put in the situation of justifying kicking someone out of church.

Regarding nakedness, the Bible suggest to dress modestly so that one is easy.
Originally Posted by bxroads
I'm not conversant in Greek, Hebrew, or Aramic and I even struggle with English.


You seem a straight ahead Gent and have found your path.
Originally Posted by curdog4570
If a man surrenders , nothing else matters.If a man can't surrender , nothing else matters.

It REALLY is that simple.

Jesus is alive and well today and speaks to a surrendered heart , not an ego infected head.

The surrendered heart recognizes neither Greek , Hebrew , Aramic , or English but rather the Master's voice.


We are His only creation that has self will. We decide to use it wrongly or rightly. He judges.

When you, me or anyone else starts quoting scriptures, best to know their derivations and meanings from antiquity and not as it seems apparent to the immediate day.
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A bit out of context no?
You answered your own question. No, I don't believe it out of context. To the contrary, outward appearances are outward appearances, and the heart is the heart. Not everyone is as fashion conscious as others. I don't believe that "lack" is see as such by the Lord who sees not as men see.

Money changers/simony is different topic entirely.

Originally Posted by bxroads
Regarding nakedness, the Bible suggest to dress modestly so that one is easy.


You can't get much more modest than when you're naked.
Originally Posted by RickyD
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A bit out of context no?
You answered your own question. No, I don't believe it out of context. To the contrary, outward appearances are outward appearances, and the heart is the heart. Not everyone is as fashion conscious as others. I don't believe that "lack" is see as such by the Lord who sees not as men see.

Money changers/simony is different topic entirely.

This is a text book case of how/why there have been so many divisions in the church(es).
This thread is about what are appropriate goings on in church. Correct? The church in this case meaning the physical building/house of God. There is one scripture I can think of that addresses it. It is the money changers. It could not be more relevant. Inappropriate goings on in the building and Christ himself got VIOLENT over it as they were defiling the house of His Father. You dismiss that scripture yet somehow bring up scripture about the God given physical attributes of another individual and somehow correlate THAT to appropriate behavior and dress in the house of the God?
No wonder atheists and agonstics dismiss us as arbitrary moonbats. frown

Originally Posted by Woodsmaster
Originally Posted by bxroads
Regarding nakedness, the Bible suggest to dress modestly so that one is easy.


You can't get much more modest than when you're naked.
Well, humble maybe. Modest, not so much. wink
Good coffee, good food, a big screen TV fixed to a sports channel.

Even I could find reasons to go to a church like that!
Originally Posted by BCBrian
Good coffee, good food, a big screen TV fixed to a sports channel.

Even I could find reasons to go to a church like that!


I don't agree with you often, lol, but have to agree here. If they had a good IPA on tap, I'd be there early to get a good seat. wink
Originally Posted by Old_Toot
Originally Posted by deflave
Originally Posted by mark shubert
deflave, I doubt Jesus had a button down shirt, and I believe His sandals were closer to flip-flops than to a pair of wing-tip shoes. That said, I tend to wear a snap type western shirt, newer blue jeans, a tie, and my dress western boots to church (Formal Church). Most often, I'm babysitting livestock, and enjoying God's church in the great outdoors on Sunday (critters need feed & water & care 24/7) Jesus & I have an ongoing, GREAT relationship!
Mark


Jesus probably didn't smell too great back in the day either. But I'd still like people in modern day society to take a shower before entering the fellowship hall. I'm glad you have a good relationship with him.

Travis


Anything else you want?


Besides people not looking like slobs in church? A couple more honest christians would be nice...



Travis
Originally Posted by deflave


Besides people not looking like slobs in church? A couple more honest christians would be nice...



Travis


That really would be nice.

I agree with you on this. I may be in clean jeans and shirt with shined boots but that is the real me. I am comfortable standing and worshiping next to a five thousand dollar suit if that is being real to the man wearing it. However, I am just a comfortable standing and worshiping next to someone who's hair is uncombed, shirt has holes, pants are more hole than thread and could use a shower if he is doing the best he can and is being real. To me it is far more important what is in someones heart that the cloths on their body.

On the other hand open disrespect is a different issue.
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This is a text book case of how/why there have been so many divisions in the church(es).
Only in that some, actually many, place issues irrelevant to God as matters of importance to stroke their own egos and give perceived reason to disdain and judge those they consider lessor to themselves. Matters of attire is one of these faux priorities.

I dismiss the scripture on simony, the selling and profiting of salvation, as on the same level as contention that manner of dress is an issue of importance. The latter is not even an issue except in the minds of the judgmental, and the former was instrumental in causing the reformation. If that dichotomy is lost on you, I cannot help you there.

You want to alledge the scripture I posted is only about physical attributes but give no mention of the jist of the verse: God ONLY looks to the heart. Period. Not dress, not offices of the church, not social standing, the HEART.

I won't even deal with that arbitrary moonbat thing.

Originally Posted by deflave
Originally Posted by Old_Toot
Originally Posted by deflave
Originally Posted by mark shubert
deflave, I doubt Jesus had a button down shirt, and I believe His sandals were closer to flip-flops than to a pair of wing-tip shoes. That said, I tend to wear a snap type western shirt, newer blue jeans, a tie, and my dress western boots to church (Formal Church). Most often, I'm babysitting livestock, and enjoying God's church in the great outdoors on Sunday (critters need feed & water & care 24/7) Jesus & I have an ongoing, GREAT relationship!
Mark


Jesus probably didn't smell too great back in the day either. But I'd still like people in modern day society to take a shower before entering the fellowship hall. I'm glad you have a good relationship with him.

Travis


Anything else you want?


Besides people not looking like slobs in church? A couple more honest christians would be nice...



Travis


Yeah, like those so "honest" they use gd in the same sentence as going to church and then apply themselves as Christians.
I agree Scott.


Travis
Using "[bleep]" makes a person dishonest? That's a new one on me. And just so you understand how it works Old Toot, a person can go to church and learn about the word of God and not be a Christian. Matter of fact, I'm pretty sure the Bible mentions something about that being one of the reasons for a church to begin with.

The OP concerns Sunday morning services being too casual and I agree with him 100%


Travis
The only difference between a church and a prison is that in one the inmates stay willingly.
Originally Posted by deflave
Using "[bleep]" makes a person dishonest? That's a new one on me. And just so you understand how it works Old Toot, a person can go to church and learn about the word of God and not be a Christian. Matter of fact, I'm pretty sure the Bible mentions something about that being one of the reasons for a church to begin with.

The OP concerns Sunday morning services being too casual and I agree with him 100%


Travis


A "dishonest" Christian, Travis. Check out The Commandments.
I've seen them before. But thanks.


Travis
You are welcome.
Not as many people are scared anymore
Originally Posted by RickyD
Quote
This is a text book case of how/why there have been so many divisions in the church(es).
Only in that some, actually many, place issues irrelevant to God as matters of importance to stroke their own egos and give perceived reason to disdain and judge those they consider lessor to themselves. Matters of attire is one of these faux priorities.

I dismiss the scripture on simony, the selling and profiting of salvation, as on the same level as contention that manner of dress is an issue of importance. The latter is not even an issue except in the minds of the judgmental, and the former was instrumental in causing the reformation. If that dichotomy is lost on you, I cannot help you there.

You want to alledge the scripture I posted is only about physical attributes but give no mention of the jist of the verse: God ONLY looks to the heart. Period. Not dress, not offices of the church, not social standing, the HEART.

I won't even deal with that arbitrary moonbat thing.

Still won't address the money changers huh?
You can argue dress is not a scriptural requirement (although there is scripture regarding dress in general, not necessarily in church). I would submit however it is a symptom of that person's heart (that you rightfully fixate on). A humble servant, a fearful servant, I believe it reasonable to expect, dresses respectfully in the house of the Lord. Jesus Himself did not stand for defiling the house.
But perhaps dress, language, and actions are all just irrelevant?
I love it when people judge others as judgemental too. God created irony. He does have a sense of humor no doubt. grin
Originally Posted by Furprick
Not as many people are scared anymore
There's nothing to be scared of. Society has clearly told them everything is OK and you can justify ANYTHING (to yourself).
When reading these postings....it's quite obvious for the 'division'!!
We agree on division, dood.
The ol' pest fell asleep in the middle of reformatting my old essay on the church as a temple ("Razed, Raised, Three Days"), and just woke-up. ('Tain't easy bein' senile! crazy)

Will finish the chore after I get some more shut-eye and will post it in case there's one person among our >32,000 who might want to read it.

See y'all later!
I'd just like to know since when going to Church wasn't supposed to be a sacrifice. "Sacrifice of the Mass" means more than just Eucharist!
Originally Posted by BarryC
I'd just like to know since when going to Church wasn't supposed to be a sacrifice. "Sacrifice of the Mass" means more than just Eucharist!
Since the "It's all good if it feels good" crowd reached adult hood. Well.... got older anyway.
Not so much a sacrifice as a duty, a petition, an oblation.

Only one Sacrifice was made.
Sacrifices are made every day - men go to jobs they hate for the sake of feeding their families, soldiers give their blood and their lives for fellow Americans, etc., etc. etc. An hour or two on Sunday is a sacrifice we make for the One we love, albeit a small one. I think making it is a good start.

ETA: Going to these churches to drink latte is a start. Like preschool is a intro to grade school. It's only a problem when there's no progress beyond that or when it is a regression from a fuller sacrifice.
I prefer to look at the opportunity to go and worship and study God's Word as an honor and privilege, not a sacrifice. A sacrifice is what He did for me-not what I can for Him. Just my $.02 worth.
Originally Posted by M77shooter
I prefer to look at the opportunity to go and worship and study God's Word as an honor and privilege, not a sacrifice. A sacrifice is what He did for me-not what I can for Him. Just my $.02 worth.
Not to overplay semantics, but you generally have to earn an honor or a priviledge. Presumably we can agree that's not possible here? The price of admission was paid already. The least we can do is be humbled by that and attempt to give it some modicum of respect, the least of which is showing up regularly not looking like we're headed to a football game.
Originally Posted by Ken Howell
I long to see (and I think that Jesus does, too) Jesus's active followers operate corporately as they did between the Day of Pentecost and the late fourth century Anno Domini � when they numbered in the tens of thousands in Jerusalem alone at the close of the first century and had spread-out over the rest of the then-known world.

� congregating in twos and fews whenever and wherever the Holy Spirit led them together in the Name (authority) of Jesus, to do whatever He bade them do right then

� edified by the Holy Spirit through the agency and counsel of their council of local presbuteroi, episcopoi, and poimeni

� subject to the direction, guidance, and rule of no distant "authority" but only to God through the Holy Spirit and their council of local presbuteroi, episcopoi, and poimeni

� doing the works that Jesus did, as He promised that we would � healing the sick, comforting the afflicted, casting-out demons, etc




I don't expect any of that to happen on Sunday mornings in The Little Brown Church in the Wildwood or in that gleaming white building with the steeple, stained-glass windows, and gurgling organ.


Dr. Howell, thank you for your freely offered insights. if you so choose, we look forward to your posting of your thoughts related to the Temple, it's razing, and rebuild, etc.

there's lots of discussion related to the coming of the new temple. thank you for your sharing,.
Originally Posted by Gus
� Dr. Howell, thank you for your freely offered insights. if you so choose, we look forward to your posting of your thoughts related to the Temple, it's razing, and rebuild, etc.

there's lots of discussion related to the coming of the new temple. thank you for your sharing.

Maybe tomorrow morning �

Lots of interruptions here today, and what's left of the decrepit ol' carcass is "tard" beyond description. Didn't get so much as a minute to work on that old file.

Expect a few abundantly gnawable surprises, all based on careful exegesis and on total devotion and fidelity to God and His very explicit revelation of Himself.

It's been interesting to see, in this thread, how many disparate conclusions, theories, conjectures, and opinions human minds can cobble-up from the innards of their noggins without ever touching any of the truths that are so clearly revealed in the New Testament. Quite a wide variety!
Originally Posted by GeauxLSU
Originally Posted by M77shooter
I prefer to look at the opportunity to go and worship and study God's Word as an honor and privilege, not a sacrifice. A sacrifice is what He did for me-not what I can for Him. Just my $.02 worth.
Not to overplay semantics, but you generally have to earn an honor or a priviledge. Presumably we can agree that's not possible here? The price of admission was paid already. The least we can do is be humbled by that and attempt to give it some modicum of respect, the least of which is showing up regularly not looking like we're headed to a football game.


One definition of a privilege is "a right granted as a peculiar benefit, advantage, or favor"-so it doesn't have to be something we earn. I might not have used the word "honor" as I should have, but I meant it as the opportunity to show respect and reverence to the Lord Jesus Christ. I realize that I am saved by the Grace of God and no other way. Didn't mean to misuse it. Thanks, Eddie
Where has the church gone wrong?

Ultimately, it no longer represents the One it supposedly follows.

Many churches/christians will accept you as you are--provided you believe/think essentially the same thing religiously, politically, socially.

If you want to see how a church/person models Jesus--observe how they talk about and treat those who disagree with them.

Jesus somehow managed to live a perfect life and yet was known as a "friend of sinners". I also don't recall reading about Him spending a whole lot of time in the synagogue or trying to start His own. Rather, He went out to the people and the 'undesirables' were the ones who were drawn to Him--not the conservative, clean 'church-y' types (for the most part).

When the church starts acting like its purported 'founder' you'll begin to see change. Perhaps they should listen to what he said was the greatest commandment.

BTW, it would be interesting to hear the ages of the various posters on this thread. There is no doubt the 'traditional' churches are dying on the vine. Where will they be when the baby boomers die out?

For some reading on the state of the modern church peruse the following (just a few):

"Unchristian" -- Kinamman and Lyons

"They like Jesus but not the church" -- Dan Kimball


"Adventures in missing the point" -- Brian McLaren

"ReJesus" -- Frost and Hirsch

Some further reading on 'follwing the way':

"Messy Spirituality" -- Michael Yaconelli

"This beautiful mess" -- Rich McKinley

"Myth of a Christian religion" -- Gregory Boyd

Anything by Brennan Manning, Henri Nouwen, N.T. Wright, Gregory Boyd, Phillip Yancey, Rob Bell, Dietrich Bonhoeffer, Max Lucado, and for the adventuresome, Donald Miller and Anne Lamott.
Originally Posted by Ken Howell
The ol' pest fell asleep in the middle of reformatting my old essay on the church as a temple ("Razed, Raised, Three Days"), and just woke-up. ('Tain't easy bein' senile! crazy)

Will finish the chore after I get some more shut-eye and will post it in case there's one person among our >32,000 who might want to read it.

See y'all later!

Well, as promised (threatened? grin), here it is � hope someone among us finds it worth the bother.
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Chapter 7

Razed, Raised; Three Days


Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days? But he spake of the temple of his body. When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said. (John 3:19�22)

AS JESUS HUNG from those terrible nails, the hecklers jeered at Him, �Hey, you � who said you could destroy the temple and rebuild it in three days � save yourself!� And almost immediately, He �destroyed� the temple and replaced it. He razed it and raised it in three days. But not in the way that they'd thought that He had meant. What He did was more exciting than anything that they could have imagined. The full impact of it lies waiting to be �discovered� by anyone who shakes-off certain old pagan deceptions that blind far too many Christian eyes to this day.

Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom � (Matthew 27:50�51a � emphasis added)

The Jews' temple had already had a rocky history before Jesus's death on the cross made it finally and completely obsolete, replaced by Jesus's body. It had been looted, torn down, and rebuilt time after time. The old temple had long since ceased to be the glorious edifice that Solomon had built to God's design. Certain basic but secondary features of the old physical temple remained for Jesus to do away with forever � and then there was the central feature that He made permanent.

There's a great difference between God's will (what He prefers) and God's allowance or His permissiveness (what He allows). For example, in Matthew 19:8 and Mark 10:5, the Lord indicates the difference between (a) God's will that men not put away their wives, and (b) God's permissiveness in accommodating their hard-heartedness.

God's will was that Israel worship Him and follow Him. But they wanted a human king, so He gave them their way � with disastrous results as the sin nature of man proved to be no substitute for God's perfection. God has put up with the willfulness and hard-heartedness of His people, from Adam to us. Hard-heartedness led men to make sacrifices in forbidden places, in heathen ways, to pagan �gods,� when it was God's will that they worship Him in their hearts, giving Him not bulls and goats but themselves.

Through David and Solomon, God gave them the great temple in Jerusalem. If they must have a place for worship, let it be the place that God chose, and let the manner of their worship be of His choosing too. But they chose to follow the world around them. They worshiped in other places (though there was only one ordained temple), and they brought into the temple shrines and observances that didn't belong there.

The idea that anything as fixed, as material, and as temporal as a building can be a suitable abode or meeting place for God is an insult to His nature and to His infinity. God let them have an outstandingly magnificent temple, but He let it be subject to all the abuse and normal vicissitudes that material and temporal things were subject to.

Solomon had been dead less than five years before the temple was plundered, and the Babylonians destroyed it in 586 BC. When Persia ruled Jerusalem, King Cyrus ordered the temple rebuilt (537�516 BC), but this temple also perished.

It was as big as Solomon's, but it had far less glory. It lacked six notable and important features that God had specified for the temple that He designed �
� the ark
� the Holy Spirit
� the sacred fire
� Urim and Thummim
� the Shekinah

One might wonder whether God willed or merely permitted this rebuilding or the one that came later. In 20�19 BC, Herod tore down the Second Temple and built his own version, which wasn't complete until AD 64. By then, Jesus had already made the temple obsolete for Christians. This temple also fell before conquerors when the Romans destroyed it in AD 70 and triumphantly carried the golden candelabrum, the table of showbread, and other sacred objects to Rome.

God's will and man's willfulness met in the concept of the temple, and the temple was not God's idea, plan, or will � it was man's. We must seek God's will, not ways to get away with perpetuating our own plans. His are always better than ours.

The entire temple included areas where anyone could enter, and the Holy Place with its Holy of Holies, where only the priests could enter. Jesus's death tore the veil that was supposed to have protected the Holy of Holies from unlawful entry. In fact, as the New Testament reveals, His death even destroyed the demarcation that Gentiles couldn't pass. Today, even the Holy of Holies (Jesus) is equally open to Gentiles and Jews.

The New Testament texts use two words for �the temple� � hieron for the over-all enclosure and everything in it, and naos for the Holy Place. During the era of the old covenant, Jesus Himself couldn't enter the naos, the Holy Place. But now, under the new covenant in His blood, anyone can enter this holiest of places. (Still, this is just a part of the wonder of what His temple is today! Those who enter it also become parts of it!) The temple today consists of only the naos, with no hieron or outer enclosure.

Theology based on English words has many Christians believing an attractive but erroneous idea of what the temple is today, because of a simple weakness of our language � the word you. Although we use I and me for the singular �first person� and use we and us for the plural, we use only the one word you indiscriminately for both singular and plural �second person.� For �third person,� we use he, him, she, her, and it for singulars, and we use they and them for plurals. We distinguish easily between singular and plural in first-person and third-person pronouns but not in our one little double-duty second-person pronoun, you (except in the southern and eastern plurals you all or y'all) and youse).

Greek is in this respect worlds clearer than English, with separate sets of unmistakably dissimilar words for singular and plural. Each of these basic forms has several minor variations, but the two basic forms never overlap or even look vaguely like one another. The singular forms are basically two-letter and three-letter words. The plural forms are longer and don't use the same or even similar roots. Su, se, sou, and soi are singular, and umeis, umas, uman, and umin are the plural forms for you
� Singular � su, se, sou, soi
� Plural � umeis, umas, uman, umin

Little distinctions often make big differences. The distinction between the singular and plural second-person pronouns is usually bound into the Greek verbs, or in discrete pronouns where there's no verb. Whether the you intended is shown by a verb ending or one of the discrete pronouns above, the distinction between singular and plural is often significant. For example, where �
� Both singular and plural occur in the same passage.
� The plural occurs in a passage addressed to one person.
� The singular occurs in a passage addressed to more than one person.
� The plural somehow refers to a singular concept.
� The English you or long-established teaching applies the passage to the individual person, but the Greek shows that it actually applies collectively to the group.

The distinction between the singular and plural Greek words for you is crucial to understanding what Jesus said to Peter, for example, in Luke 22:31�32 �
And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you [plural, meaning Peter and the others, though He was speaking to Peter], that he may sift you [plural] as wheat: but I have prayed for thee [singular], that thy [singular] faith fail not: and when thou [singular] art converted, strengthen thy [singular] brethren.

This distinction is vital to understanding exactly what it is that's the temple today. In modern English with its terribly inadequate word you, 1 Corinthians 3:16-17 seems to say something that's significantly different from what it really says. Middle English marked the singular with thee, thou, thine, and thy and the plural with ye, you, and your � but few of us sense the distinction when we read it in the King James Version �
Know ye [plural] not that ye [plural] are the temple [singular] of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in [literally, among] you [plural]? If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye [plural] are.

The distinction between singular and plural is also crucial to understanding 1 Corinthians 6:19 �
What! know ye not that your [ plural] body [singular] is the temple [naos] of the Holy Spirit which is [among] you, [ plural] which ye have from God, and ye are not your own?

This is a world away from saying, �Your bodies [plural] are temples [plural] of the Holy Spirit.� The singular body that's the temple is the Body of Christ. Not the steepled white building on the main corner in town, Brother, but us! (all of us � you, me, us, and them). Also notice which temple the Body of Christ now is � the naos, the Holy Place with its Holy of Holies!

God created man for His own pleasure, to fellowship with Him regularly, with Him as man�s lovingly benevolent Ruler. But man's way has always been to prefer a different way altogether. When God created the Jewish people, His intent was the same as it was when He put Adam and Eve in Eden � but the Jews wanted a king to rule them, as in other nations. So God gave them a king and a set of laws, because of �the hardness of their hearts.� If they must have a king, then their king would have to be the man whom God gave them. If they must have laws, then their laws must be the laws that God gave them. So it was also with the temple. If they must build one for Him, then they would have to build it exactly to His design and specifications.

When God had given David victory over all his enemies, David figured that it was time that he built God a house better than his own. But God said that He had never been confined to a house but had always been mobile enough to go along with His people wherever they went. And He asked, �In all the places where I've been with my people, did I ever ask, `Why don't you build me a house'?� (1 Samuel 7:1�7; 1 Chronicles 17:1�6). Then � as He had done with the king and the law � God let His people build Him a temple, but specified that Solomon, not David, would build His temple, and He specified every detail of what it must be like.

Although the pagan temples of other peoples were the origin of David's idea that God must have a temple, God wouldn't let His people build Him a temple that would be full of pagan symbols or used for pagan sacrifices and other rituals. God's temple must symbolize Him and His purpose in all its details.

And like the king and the law, the temple given to His hard-hearted people must pass away. Since Old Testament times, God has allowed that physical temple and its replicas to be ravaged by the world that gave His people reason to want it in the first place. Not only was the temple vulnerable to Gentile conquest and ruin but also was the Holy Place vulnerable to rape and pillage. Like the human king and the law, the temple and the altar were human vanities that God in His patient and loving mercy let His people have as pacifiers that they must someday outgrow and abandon.

To the heathen, the temple was the hieron, the sacred place for offering the hiera (this was a pagan term that�s never used in the New Testament) or sacrifice. To the heathen, the sacrifice was to appease or to bribe the gods, for propitiation, which might include but wasn't limited to atonement. To the heathen, the sacrifice was to make things better (propitious) between him and his gods � to induce them to favor him instead of or more than they favored someone else.

The idea of the heathen's sin or the gods' wrath wasn't necessarily a part of the idea. Sin and wrath would make the necessity of the heathen's lobbying a good bit more critical, of course, but the basic idea was to woo the gods and to win their favor and preference.

The heathens' ideas of their gods were vastly different from what we know of the one true God, as He has revealed Himself and His will. Man had created his gods out of (and in) his imagination with Satan's help. The heathen's idea was that his gods were many, humanistic in form and temperament, and as fickle as drunken butterflies. Their wrath and their favor as a result were equally fickle and whimsical. So, like contractors trying to do business with a corrupt governor, the heathens �worshiped� their gods through a system of competitive lobbying.

The sacrifice was an offering, a bribe, an inducement to win or to increase the gods' favor. The heathen's sin and the gods' wrath intensified the need for the heathen to woo the gods, but this idea wasn't basic to the idea of wooing their favor.

The gods of the heathen, having arisen from his imagination and existing only there, were like his worst and best self � as evil, as fickle, and as good as he could imagine. Since he couldn't imagine a god who could be as just or as merciful as the one true God really is, his concepts of the gods were as unlike the infinite real God as they could possibly be.

The heathen idea of the sacrifice likewise grew out of his understanding of himself and his fellows, perverted and extrapolated to form hypotheses of what would sway the gods toward him and against his enemies and rivals.

The heathen had to compete with other heathens for the gods' favor � but the gods were rivals or even enemies, too, so he also had to woo more favor from his gods than his enemies could win from theirs. This bloody-toothed competition was nothing less than supernatural lobbying raised to the level of out-and-out warfare. To outdo the enemy's lobbying of other gods, the heathen had to outdo himself in his temples and sacrifices. The temple that one city-state built to its god or goddess had to be bigger and more ornate, with altars higher and sacrifices more and more extravagant, than an enemy city-state's temple, altar, and sacrifices.

God's specifications for His temple were supposed to make it obvious to even his hard-hearted, spiritually myopic and cross-eyed people that no other god's temple could come close to matching it. Then, when it had won them nothing of infinite value and couldn't even perpetuate itself, they'd see the vanity or uselessness of even the most extravagant temple possible.

Jesus's atoning death on the cross made sacrifices � therefore also the altar � obsolete forever. His ascension into Heaven and His gift of the Holy Spirit removed the constriction of site or place for all time. As He implicitly told the Samaritan woman at Jacob's well, God isn't a physical lump to be parked in one place, where then men must come to know and to worship Him. God is spirit � and not just a spirit among many but The Spirit, Whom men can meet and know and worship without respect for site and with no need for a specific, special site (John 4:21�24).

His death tore asunder the veil that closed off the Holy Place and Holy of Holies to all but the priests. The special courts and porches for this group and that group of people also became obsolete when the new covenant established that in His sacrifice of Jesus as the Christ, there's no distinction or discrimination between Jew and Gentile, rich and poor, freeman and slave. His one Sacrifice covers all equally and totally, since all have sinned equally with identical sinfulness.

By doing away with sacrifices and the altar, God abolished even His own temporary toleration for the site-focused ideas that led to rivalry and competition in worship. With only one God to worship, there's no rival god to make a pair that man can play against one another.

Since the one and only God is incorruptible, perfect, and unchanging, there's no possibility of bribing Him or wooing or lobbying Him in any way. One either has His favor or doesn't have it, and He has given us simple, fair, noncompetitive criteria for how we can please Him. Just as God Himself is, His favor is infinite and doesn't have to be diluted to �go around� or taken from one to be given to another.

Man wrests the way of God and twists it in opposite directions to substitute his own judgement for God's �
� To simplify something that to man seems too complex. This twist usually includes omitting something that to God is essential but to man is objectionable, distasteful, or inconvenient.
� To complicate something that to man seems too simple. This twist usually includes adding something that man likes and thinks that God shouldn't have left out.

Man's notions of the temple, the altar, and sacrifices miss the simple fact that the physical temple, altar, and sacrifices are obsolete. Man's affinity for these pagan institutions reveals his inherently rebellious nature and its pronounced tendency toward idolatry. The Christian who persists in his physically oriented thinking blinds himself to the spiritual reality of the Body of Christ. The Messiah has occupied two bodies �
� Jesus of Nazareth, born to the virgin Mary
� The Body of Christ, all born-again disciples

Likewise, He has occupied two temples �
� The oft-destroyed temple in Jerusalem
� The temple of the Holy Spirit, which is also the Body of Christ, the ekklesia, etc (The church is something else.)

The temple of the Holy Spirit, the Holy Place with its Holy of Holies, the naos, is now us and only us who belong to Him � always and only people, never a building. For a time, it still suffers the competitive distraction of the hieron fallacy � the idea that a temple has to be a physical place � a building, a site. The empty hieron is therefore still with us, even though it's obsolete as far as God is concerned.

Once the Body of Christ sees that the Body is the only temple, the naos, and that the church as a �temple� is an expression of the hieron fallacy, we'll see that the hieron today is of the world � which we're in but not to be of. It and we are of opposite kinds of spirit as well as opposites in manner and purpose.

The harm in the hieron fallacy is that it blinds us to the real temple, the naos of the Holy Spirit. The naos is inside the hieron but is by direct specification of God not to be of it or part of it. When we consider the church to be a temple, we're blind to the fact that the Body of Christ, the ekklesia, is the real and only temple. And that's us, not any place, building, or site. As long as we feel that we have to be in a certain place � or kind of place � to be in the temple, we seek a heathen temple instead of accepting and honoring the temple of God that we're already in and parts of.

We therefore deafen ourselves to the mild, quiet voice of the Holy Spirit whenever He speaks to lead us together in the name of Jesus. If we don't discern and acknowledge the temple that we're parts of, but insist instead that only in the hieron can we be inside a temple, we stifle His voice and deprive not only ourselves but others in the Body of the spiritual edification and blessing and strength that are His will for us all.

�But we must have a place where we can all meet at one time � and a schedule of times, so we can all know when to meet,� man argues. This is man setting the criteria that he demands that the Holy Spirit must follow, the limits that He must operate within. This is man insisting that he, not the Holy Spirit, must write the tune and call the dance. (But He is God, after all � which we forget so easily, so often.)

But Jesus says that wherever two or more are properly led together in His name, that's where He is.
For where two or three are [led together] in my name, there am I in the midst of them. (Matthew 18:20)

Carnal Christians don't readily grasp or acknowledge that the Holy Spirit is marvelously capable of �
� Knowing exactly what God's plan calls for at any time
� Knowing exactly how many disciples to lead together in Jesus's name at any one time for any reason or purpose of His own (irrespective of man's reasons and his purposes, even those meant to please God)
� Knowing exactly which disciples to lead together at any time for any reason or purpose of His own
� Knowing exactly when and where to lead them together
� Knowing whether they must be together physically in one place or spiritually in several
Doing what He knows is to be done � with whom, where, when, why, and how

We accept the idea that God could walk with Adam and Eve and talk with them without forgetting anything or getting anything all balled up. But for some reason, we assume that with more than two of us modern people facing him, we have to take over the orchestration, the staging, and the choreography. Adam and Eve didn't need to meet God only at scheduled times in a white, steepled building at the corner of Holy Wood and Divine, but we think that we do � and that we must set the schedule.

We accept the idea that the Holy Spirit could do marvelous things with His disciples in the first century, but we assume that now a man or a �hierarchy�(which etymologically means an order of sacred rulers) of men must appoint, arrange, and orchestrate things for Him. I'm amazed that He still bothers with us at all, seeing how we insist on ostracizing and diminishing Him.

We stifle, quench, and strait-jacket the Holy Spirit whenever we clamp tight limits and restrictions on how, when, where, and whether we're all together in �the right place� at �the right time� to hear Him and to do whatever He tells us to do. Worse yet, we sometimes just don't let Him into where we've gathered ourselves together to do what we think we ought to be doing for God.

Carefully notice that being led together and being gathered together are two very different things. The single Greek word that King James's translators rendered gathered together, ([i]sunago), means literally to lead together and was used loosely to mean simply to gather together. Both the phrase in my name (that is, under His authority and by His direction) in Jesus's promise (Matthew 18:20) and its broad context show exactly Who is to lead His disciples together for Him to be there among them � the Holy Spirit.

A bunch of people simply gathered together by saints or scalawags isn't the same as a group led together (with saints and scalawags, perhaps, but in His name) by the Holy Spirit. The distinction surely ought to be obvious to anybody once somebody points it out.

Another specious argument used by defenders of the church as a temple is that since the Holy Spirit does come into churches and does move among people there, the church is therefore the temple. But the presence and activity of the Holy Spirit among people certify only the Holy Spirit and His functions, not the places where He leads or visits Christians. He can come and go as He pleases. He has come to and worked with saints who were alone and with others in numbers, in all kinds of places and situations (in bars and brothels, for example) that not even the most ardent defender of the church as His temple would consider to be equally certified as holy by His presence and activity.

He has come to sinners in the most sin-filled places � not to certify the places where He has found them but to visit those sinners where they are at the time. He has come likewise to saints in all kinds of places other than the church, to lead them as He wills � not to certify the places as holy or to establish them as temples.

In the naos, no more sacrifice is necessary � not even for those who are yet to become stones in its walls � because Jesus's one sacrifice of His life atoned for all our sins, and coming to Him for His forgiveness by virtue of that sacrifice makes us each a stone in its walls. Since no more sacrifice will ever be necessary for Christians, the only system that still demands sacrifices is the heathen system of idolatry. Since no sacrifice will ever again be Christian, the naos has no place for a physical altar. And of course the Body of Christ has no place, role, or function for the pagan hieron, with or without a steeple or stained-glass windows.

Perpetuating the hieron fallacy � the idea that the temple must be a physical edifice � perpetuates idolatry even though the idolatry symbol is a cross on the top of its steeple and on its altar. Collecting tribute to build and maintain physical hieron edifices is pagan taxation, not the Christian sharing in the Body, as we read about in Acts. The purpose of Christian tithes and offerings is sharing to edify and to maintain the Body and its members in its Great Commission work, not to build or maintain paganistic physical temples and their trappings.

If the hieron concept of the temple were spiritually neutral, with no pagan attachment or significance, it may have been less harmful to the health and the mission of the Body of Christ. Even so, simply as a functional diversion, it's a terrible nuisance. The true temple of the Holy Spirit, the Body of Christ, is richer, simpler, more practical, more flexible, more consistent, more varied, and much more personal.

It's where each of us is to know the Holy Spirit. It's where we're all, one by one or in groups large or small, to do the wonders, greater than His, that Jesus said that we'd do in His name. So the nuisance of the hieron concept is spiritual, and its pagan significance gives it an element of evil that has no place in the Body and certainly no legitimate function in its operation.

In the Body, there's life. The temple building usurps the place of the true temple of the Holy Spirit, the naos that is the Body of Christ. In taking a place that isn't its own, this dead, material thing sits where a live Body should be growing � like a slab laid over grass seedlings, it etiolates and kills them.

God is a spirit � the Spirit � and in His aphysical image, so also is man a spirit. But finite man can be housed in a specialized mammal body. No single physical body can accommodate God. Trying to limit Him to anything physical or material would be like trying to scoop up a sea of molten platinum (at 3,225 degrees Fahrenheit!) in a paper or styrofoam cup. His glory would melt it before its inadequate capacity could become a problem.

The hieron concept of the temple is finite, physical, material � so every view of it or from it is also finite, physical, and material. Its life is the world's life; the corporation, franchise, or small business. God established Hisnaos, the Body of Christ, as the �place� where He and His people meet, that His people may hear and obey and serve Him and that He may lovingly care for His people according to their needs.

But the world view of the physical hieron as the temple interferes. Instead, the church building becomes central, and its programs and members become means to achieve one end above all others: to support and maintain the building and the business that it houses. In some ways, of course, this business is unique: the building is especially distinctive, and so are its programs and products � they are as distinct from the ordinary down-town business as a car wash or a grain elevator, but they are exactly like it in all other respects.

Influenced almost entirely by the world that gave it birth and sustains it, the hieron is also the center of the same class divisions that layer all other business and industry. Its corporate executives and business owners form and maintain a class that's separate and different from the class of their workers and customers. Their interests are separate and as immiscible as oil and water.

The new naos, the temple of the Holy Spirit that's us, has only two sets of interests. God's interests and those of His people commingle and blend compatibly, with no conflict of interest, competitiveness, or exploitation.

More and more, the hieron concept has the church seeing the flock as a resource for the support of the church, not as a responsibility that the church must support. Periodic shearing during the life of a sheep and peeling off its fleece after death are more important than finding new water and graze (the hieron holds its sheep in one place), wrestling marauding bears, caring for bum lambs, etc.

The Body is one. It doesn't compete with any other, because there is no other. Its parts don't compete with each other for supremacy or attention. They coordinate and harmonize like the eyes, ears, mind, and muscles of a master musician or a champion athlete. The temple building competes with its counterparts erected by other groups, compounding its other negative effects on the Body. Each has to be better than others, to forestall emigration to the others.

The Body solves its own its members' problems, as it is guided and empowered by the Holy Spirit according to the Father's master plan and purpose. All its programs and priorities are His. The temple building creates its own problems, needs, programs, and priorities, further compounding its negative impact on the Body.

The Body uses all its resources to edify itself over-all and its members personally, to carry out the Lord's great commission. The temple building absorbs resources that the Body is supposed to apply in other directions and in other ways. This dilutes or siphons away the time, energy, money, attention, care, and commitment of the Body. It sucks and soaks-up the Body's resources and pours them into physical edifices and their support programs at the expense of the spiritual edifice.

The Body is persons, so the temple is personal. Our loving personal attention to each other and to the Holy Spirit, and His personal attention to us and all our concerns, make the new naos the epitome of warmth, welcome, hospitality, care, and spiritual efficiency and effectiveness. Led by the Holy Spirit, one or a few members can confide in one or a few others, sharing intimate and delicate concerns to be resolved, without laying themselves open to ruinous gossip and meddling.

The temple building preserves the clinical, institutional, bureaucratic base of its origin as an official arm of the Roman Empire. It's �the place� to pay one's religious taxes and to go through one's religious motions � not a place to share spirit, soul, body (in labor and service, for example � certainly not sex), means, cares, needs, etc, with the rest of the Body.

Its clinical air and institutional view of �solutions� discourage candor. Its basic premise that many, most, or all members must meet every time there's a program or a problem interferes with the personal focus of the Holy Spirit and His choice of participants in each project.

The Body, neither focused on nor filtered through any specific site but at all times and in all its places receptive to the guidance of the Holy Spirit, works in His name wherever its members are where they can respond as the Holy Spirit directs them. The temple building restricts the range and scope of the Body's activity.

The Body's great variety of members and their great varieties of location and situation within the world give its activities immense flexibility and variety, both within the Body and between the Body and the world. The Body is as varied, and therefore as flexible, as its members and as the Holy Spirit. The temple building restricts the flexibility and variety of the Body's activities.

The new naos has the Holy Spirit as its guide � all-knowing, infallible, all-powerful, always completely dependable. The Body comprises many members, in great variety, but all clearly coordinated under its one guide, the Holy Spirit. So it shows Christ to the world as the one great spiritual force that He is. It also shows to the world that invincible unity of the Trinity reflected in the same loving unity of God and His people.

The many competitive temple buildings show the world a �Christ� that�s divided into competitive, hostile camps.

Routine operation of the new naos comprises just a few basic levels of Body activities. Each level varies according to the relationships, types of activity and need, purposes, immediacy, and specific personal focus �
� Person to person, solo or group, requiring no special inspiration or stimulus from the Holy Spirit
� Person to leader, solo or group
� Holy Spirit to person, pair, or group, on His initiative and for His purposes

Certain things in Christian life don't need special or spiritual stimulus for action, belief, correction, etc � we already know that we're supposed to do or believe them, because the Bible tells us so (we know that we�re to study the Bible, obey, repent, believe, love, forgive, go and teach all nations, pray, etc). Our imperfections in these activities make the help of the Holy Spirit and brethren in the Body necessary � to know what we should know but don't know, for the spiritual guidance and power to do them, etc.

Also, normal, ordinary situations arise that we know we're supposed to respond to in certain ways � a Brother needs help, so we help, for example � one person if possible or necessary. Simply knowing the need is enough � we're not to wait for the Holy Spirit to tell us when or whether or how to help if it's within our ability to help him. Nor do most such needs require that all members meet to deliberate them.

Other situations require that the Holy Spirit alert us and guide us. He knows how many and exactly which ones to alert, guide, and to empower � and when. He knows when and how to draw two disciples together � physically or spiritually � to help a third with their means (their money, muscle, tools, facilities, etc), prayer, expressed love, deliverance, etc. He knows when He and certain members of the Body have to attend to a matter immediately, when it's out of the question to wait until a scheduled time for all the Body to hear of it and to work on it together.

A small Christian group in the Northwest sent their leader to a conference in Miami Beach � paid for his train fare one way, his travel expenses, hotel, meals, and enrollment, and promised to send money for his return while he was there. But no more money came, and he had no funds of his own. He was stranded. On his last day, as he sat in the lobby of that high-priced hotel, a stranger came up to him and said, �The Lord says I'm to give you this.� He took three hundred dollars in bills from his wallet � enough to cover the man's return to his home and family in the Northwest.

The man had told no one in Miami Beach or anywhere else of his problem or his need. But he had prayed, and the Holy Spirit and a responsive Brother had taken care of it. That's the way that the Body of Christ would work in all our lives if we'd let it.

�Let it? How?�

� by discerning the temple of the Holy Spirit for what it is, and turning from all alien and heathen notions of it. The coming changes in Christian life and belief will include a shift in basic emphasis � from individual, personal Christian life to collective, corporate Christian life in the Body. As the Body lives and moves, its health and energy will pervade all its parts. But the occasional fading flickers of life in amputated, separated parts of the Body will vanish and leave them dead. Only in Him will we live, move, or even exist.

�But the [hieron concept of the] church is all I know!� a Brother says, to excuse his hanging on to it with a white-knuckled grip instead of reaching forth in faith to grasp the arm of his seat in the naos. His conflict is between faith and knowledge. This Brother insists that he must know all and approve before he will move. He trusts what he knows and what he has seen; he doesn't trust anything that he doesn't know and hasn't seen.

God has for many years been calling men out of the church to take their places in the naos, but many scurry back for their beloved onions, leeks, and garlics. �




Copyright � 1986 Dr Kenneth E Howell

All rights reserved.

Christian individuals and groups are hereby granted permission to use study, share, and use this essay � in its entirety, without deletion or modification � for the edification, in the name of Jesus, of themselves and others, with acknowledgement of its author but without requirement of compensation.

Voluntary gifts as tokens of appreciation and desire to participate in the further ministry of Dr Howell, while not expected or required, will be gratefully received.
Quote
Many churches/christians will accept you as you are--provided you believe/think essentially the same thing
Sounds a lot like God. He'll accept you just as you are too, as long as you agree with Him that without Jesus, you're toast. That really torques off a lot of folks. Mostly the ones who thought they earned it.
Originally Posted by RickyD
Quote
Many churches/christians will accept you as you are--provided you believe/think essentially the same thing
Sounds a lot like God. He'll accept you just as you are too, as long as you agree with Him that without Jesus, you're toast. That really torques off a lot of folks. Mostly the ones who thought they earned it.

Someone once challenged Wesley � "Why do you keep preaching 'Ye must be born again! Ye must be born again! Ye must be born again!'?"

"Because ye must be born again!"
I think the line has become blurred between faith and religion.

By faith we are saved and receive God's grace. Jesus spoke about the importance of faith and belief in our Father.

The different religions were set up by man, usually over a disagreement regarding doctorine and religious/ceremonial laws, the very burden Jesus preached against.

Churches can be a wonderful place to share and hear the word of God, but they are not a substitute for the faith and belief Jesus taught.

JM
"I think"

In a ministers' conference several years ago, our renowned leader was "exegeting" the Genesis account of Eve's temptation. He was doing all right until he made some comment about Eve having taken the forbidden fruit to Adam, "wherever he was at the time."

I raised my hand.

"Ken?"

"Verse six says that she gave it to the man with her."

"Oh, yeah, I know that it says that, but I think that he was off somewhere else, doing his own thing."

So much for Jesus's "it is written" response that foiled Satan.

I'm an "it is written" guy. I don't buy into any "I think" that contradicts or ignores "it is written."
I'm not selling anything.

I also don't condemn a man's belief in the Lord based on what he has read in the bible and seen with his own eyes.

The usual experts and Pharisees can handle that. Every generation has them.

Later.

Originally Posted by JohnMoses
I'm not selling anything.

I also don't condemn a man's belief in the Lord based on what he has read in the bible and seen with his own eyes.

The usual experts and Pharisees can handle that. Every generation has them.

Later.



It would appear to me that you're twisting certain Biblical truths in a way that isn't present in the Scriptures themselves. If you're equating Ken's correction based upon Scripture with Pharisaical self-righteousness (and I'm not certain that you are) then its more than just an appearance...

Remember that the Pharisees condemnation did not come from their strict adherence to the word and law of God. It came from their twisting of it for purposes of increasing their own power and influence, which is where you're absolutely correct about man made religion.

Problem is, in post modern days, people take that and then suggest that anyone who argues from Scripture is a Pharisee. Christ's life was an argument from Scripture; He lived (and died) Scriptural exegesis.

To suggest that a person is Pharisee-like because they argue about matters of faith from Scripture is like suggesting that a guy is a rifle loony because he argues with someone who'd take a 30-06 squirrel hunting. There are points worth debating, and the only place worth debating from is Scripture, not "I think".

Adam & Eve "thought" about the claims of the serpent, and look where it got us... they'd have done well to humbly ask of God what His thoughts were on the subject.
The written word is all we have. Interpretation of the word is where conflict has arisen.

I have not twisted biblical truths, I simply stated a fact.

If a man truly seeks God and to understand his word, he will be given that ability thru the grace of God.

Having said that, the conclusions this man draws from the word is no ones to judge except for the Lord.

This is what I was saying.



So you don't believe that we ought to contend with one another over a right interpretation of that word which you rightly point to as being all we have?

If I am in the wrong in my interpretation... or maybe I should be more honest and say WHEN... I'd like someone to correct me, personally.

This is what I meant about post modernity poisoning the way we think and talk about Scriptural interpretation. You are correct, there are mysterious passages where a variety of conclusions could be reached by reasonable individuals. On the other hand, there are also clearer passages where a slight misinterpretation of one facet can lead you off into grave error.

Again, I hope that when I am guilty of some such error a guy like Ken (or for that matter, you) will come along and correct me. God gave us His Church so we could grow into His Son's likeness together, not in a vacuum where its every man for himself with a "me and my Bible" mantra.
Originally Posted by JohnMoses


If a man truly seeks God and to understand his word, he will be given that ability thru the grace of God.

Having said that, the conclusions this man draws from the word is no ones to judge except for the Lord.

This is what I was saying.



I agree.
You guys are NOT saying, "Hey I believe what I believe and you have no right to challenge me on it cuz its mine and if you have a problem with it shut up its between me and God" are you? I am assuming (and hoping) that you're not.

If you take that "...the conclusions this man draws from the word is no ones to judge except for the Lord." to its logical conclusion that is what you'd end up with, isn't it?

Based upon our history I'm pretty sure that is not what RickyD is saying... just don't have enough history w/ JM to know one way or another, but seeking clarification here. As much as you and I have gone back and forth over ecclesiology I'd have thought differently...



(OK, I've appended this to my own post, lest anyone get pepper in his [bleep] over the idea that I'm picking on him.)

The deeper and more assiduously I dig into what we have to regard as "the originals" and their meanings, the more they ring with the sound of revealed truth � and the more dully the translations clunk with inaccuracies, both intended and unintended.

When accurate revelation of truth will modify the opinion of any "I think" adherent, "that'll be the day-ay-ay."

As Solomon said, "there is nothing new under the sun (paraphrase mine)". Since two or or three gathered in His name that first century, we can know that "church" was done in a faulty manner because we are faulty and so it is today but IMHO there are a couple of egregious wrongs that I see in my experience at age 61 and having "grown up in the church".

One of the worst I feel is our American penchant for bricks and mortar, comfort and form, and thus in the two small communities of five thousand or so I'll use as an example, I would estimate there are twenty-five-thirty church buildings, say at an acreage cost of 5 million $ and an average yearly upkeep of 100k. They are used one to three times on Sunday, one week day evening, and regularly by this small group or that. These are churches of denominations that don't offer a nickels worth of theological difference, don't consider alternative meeting times so more could share the same buildings. This is one of the worst examples of stewardship and waste of money
I can think of. I think we are seriously in error in this.

One German pastor and theologian I read felt by long study the "house church" was the most cost-effective, efficient, and meaningful way of church-no upkeep or overhead, with a shared pastor or elder among a number of these, and the most relational-something happens to the interpersonal dynamic when there are more than twenty people reducing familiarity and thus sharing and accoutability with each other which we are called to do. The Christian faith is not one of being a Lone Ranger neither; we are called to be contributing part of a body. The trick is to not allow the governing of the body to become a malignant monster as in secular government.

Again nothing new, but the culture has again infected the church (the seminaries) with "easy religionism", PC attitudes, liberalness to the rejection of basis J-C tenets, and the black and white declarations of an un-changing God. Pastors reject basic Biblical teachings as myth or metaphor or spiritualization and become proud leaders of big churches.

Some of this may be a reaction to the previous generation's churches' being rigid, legalistic, hypocritical, isolationist, the music being theologically sound but unpleasant-"such a worm as I" and with unpleasant, stiff melodies. However, my view is now we have so-called modern, Christian music with more pleasant melodies but theologically weak-- "I-centered" lyrics instead of God-centered.

I feel and believe that if one preaches Christ and God's saving grace through him you could do so in a junkyard and people will come and hear because first and foremost one wants the truth, the whole truth, and I believe all the other machinations of the church will fall into their proper place.

I agree e, come Lord Jesus.
Originally Posted by George_De_Vries_3rd

Some of this may be a reaction to the previous generation's churches' being rigid, legalistic, hypocritical However, my view is now we have so-called... Christian music with more pleasant melodies but theologically weak-- "I-centered" lyrics instead of God-centered.

I feel and believe that if one preaches Christ and God's saving grace through him you could do so in a junkyard and people will come and hear because first and foremost one wants the truth, the whole truth, and I believe all the other machinations of the church will fall into their proper place.


Very well said as usual GdVIII!

Praise God that He reigns regardless of what we think or feel and is calling a people unto Himself from every tribe, tongue, and nation!

I couldn't agree with you more on your opinion of the soundness of old hymns vs. the "me-centric" nature of "contemporary" songs. I am not opposed to new music if it is sound, and have really enjoyed musically and linguistically reworked versions of old greats. One "contemporary" song I love is this one:

In Christ Alone lyrics
Songwriters: Getty, Julian Keith; Townend, Stuart Richard;

In Christ alone my hope is found
He is my light, my strength, my song
This Cornerstone, this solid ground
Firm through the fiercest drought and storm

What heights of love, what depths of peace
When fears are stilled, when strivings cease
My Comforter, my All in All
Here in the love of Christ I stand

In Christ alone, who took on flesh
Fullness of God in helpless Babe
This gift of love and righteousness
Scorned by the ones He came to save

?Til on that cross as Jesus died
The wrath of God was satisfied
For every sin on Him was laid
Here in the death of Christ I live, I live

There in the ground His body lay
Light of the world by darkness slain
Then bursting forth in glorious Day
Up from the grave He rose again

And as He stands in victory
Sin?s curse has lost its grip on me
For I am His and He is mine
Bought with the precious blood of Christ

No guilt in life, no fear in death
This is the power of Christ in me
From a life?s first cry to final breath
Jesus commands my destiny

No power of hell, no scheme of man
Could ever pluck me from His hand
?Til He returns or calls me home
Here in the power of Christ I stand

I will stand, I will stand
All other ground is sinking sand
All other ground, all other ground
Is sinking sand, is sinking sand
So I stand

Originally Posted by efw
So you don't believe that we ought to contend with one another over a right interpretation of that word which you rightly point to as being all we have?

If I am in the wrong in my interpretation... or maybe I should be more honest and say WHEN... I'd like someone to correct me, personally.
This is what I meant about post modernity poisoning the way we think and talk about Scriptural interpretation. You are correct, there are mysterious passages where a variety of conclusions could be reached by reasonable individuals. On the other hand, there are also clearer passages where a slight misinterpretation of one facet can lead you off into grave error.

Again, I hope that when I am guilty of some such error a guy like Ken (or for that matter, you) will come along and correct me. God gave us His Church so we could grow into His Son's likeness together, not in a vacuum where its every man for himself with a "me and my Bible" mantra.


efw,

One of my biggest problems with the church is that there is very little discussion over topics. What has been taught is assumed to be right since it has always been taught and there is no room for honest, open debate/discussion. When people are honest enough (and feel freedom to be honest) with their doubts/questions/struggles then dialogue can take place and perhaps new things learned or old things seen in a new light.

This is one area where i think the post-modern movement has a leg up on the competition. There seems to be a freedom and willingness to question. For some, the idea is abhorrent but I believe that is due to most having a 'card house' theology which can't handle any doubt or questions. Few seem to realize that truth can stand on its own and face authentic query.

Anyway, if we could all act more like Jesus and less like "Christians' we just might have a greater influence. In the meantime, I recall G.K. Chesterton's response to the question "what is wrong with the world today", -- "I am".
Originally Posted by MojoHand


Anyway, if we could all act more like Jesus and less like "Christians' we just might have a greater influence. In the meantime, I recall G.K. Chesterton's response to the question "what is wrong with the world today", -- "I am".


Great thought!
When it comes to Scripture-there is only one interpretation. However, there can be more than one application of a particular passage. I doubt any of us have all theology down pat. That having been said, there are some things out there today in this post modern culture that is too far out to give any credibility to at all. One example of this is Rob Bell's questioning the reality of hell-to name one.

To add a little context to my point above, there are places in hostile environments (ie China) where the underground church is flourishing and strong with no new carpet, no air conditioning, no coffee bar; in fact no church building at all. Just preaching Christ in basements, back rooms, in corners of fields weather permitting. In many cases they don't even have Bibles but much as in the first century, pass around hand-copied, partial chapters of this book or that.

We, in more cases every day, preach an "easy, peaceful feeling" gospel for "seekers" and then add a 5 million$ wing or build a new edifice with multiple flat screens for those whom want to sit at the bar and sip their cappuccinos while the divorce rate here for those who call themselves Christians, as a quantifiable entity, is over 50%. (Of course there are many sins that are private and thus not quantifiable). I'm not saying that anyone who's divorced is not a Christian-- that's not the point.

Bell out of Michigan, mentioned above, is an example of which there have been many -- a wolf in sheeps clothing, again, preaching a No-Hell gospel. Jesus mentioned hell in the NT much more often than He ever mentioned heaven for example.

The first four chapters of The Revelation to John indicate that most churches throughout the ages are seriously off track in critical ways and we can apply this to individuals too in the broader interpretation (including myself).

But we are not to quit trying and as the prophets and Jesus did speak truth to power as uncomfortable as it may be.

Originally Posted by George_De_Vries_3rd
� there are places in hostile environments (ie China) where the underground church is flourishing and strong with no new carpet, no air conditioning, no coffee bar; in fact no church building at all. Just preaching Christ in basements, back rooms, in corners of fields weather permitting. In many cases they don't even have Bibles but much as in the first century, pass around hand-copied, partial chapters of this book or that. �

Such was the case in Saudi Arabia when (l984�1985) I smuggled Bibles in and taught under-ground (night) Bible classes to large groups of disciples from as many � at one count � as fifty-several countries.
Originally Posted by Ken Howell

Such was the case in Saudi Arabia when (l984�1985) I smuggled Bibles in and taught under-ground (night) Bible classes to large groups of disciples from as many � at one count � as fifty-several countries.

I used to be a roofer. My boss was an expert welder. He and his older brother developed their welding expertise by building hidden compartments in cars to smuggle Bibles across the iron curtain. He wouldn't say what country they were working in because at the time, it was an ongoing operation.

We, in more cases every day, preach an "easy, peaceful feeling" gospel for "seekers" and then add a 5 million$ wing or build a new edifice with multiple flat screens for those whom want to sit at the bar and sip their cappuccinos while the divorce rate here for those who call themselves Christians, as a quantifiable entity, is over 50%. (Of course there are many sins that are private and thus not quantifiable). I'm not saying that anyone who's divorced is not a Christian-- that's not the point.

But we are not to quit trying and as the prophets and Jesus did speak truth to power as uncomfortable as it may be.

[/quote]

I think what we are seeing here is a general unrest in the true church today, that is the body of believers not the buildings.

I pray this is the beginning of a trend that leads this nation into revival.

I for one would be thrilled to find a home church doing God's work and worshiping Him it truth.

I will go one step further in this by making the statement "If the church was doing it's job today in this country there would be no welfare."

So, what is the real job of the church today?
Originally Posted by Scott F


I will go one step further in this by making the statement "If the church was doing it's job today in this country there would be no welfare."

So, what is the real job of the church today?


Careful there, Scott! You'll be labeled a 'lib' or a socialist! laugh

Funny how often 'socialist' themes appear in the Bible (see early church practices, Jubilee, Paul's admonition to work to have money to share, rich young ruler, etc.) Followers of Jesus ought to be the most sharing. 'socialistic' and non-materialistic people on the planet. Sadly, it's one area where we are all too often no different than the 'secular' (and I throw myself in there as well).

Originally Posted by M77shooter
One example of this is Rob Bell's questioning the reality of hell-to name one.


Originally Posted by George_De_Vries_3rd

Bell out of Michigan, mentioned above, is an example of which there have been many -- a wolf in sheeps clothing, again, preaching a No-Hell gospel. Jesus mentioned hell in the NT much more often than He ever mentioned heaven for example.


Rob Bell DOES NOT deny or question the reality of Hell--only it's nature. Read the whole book and try to think about and answer his questions honestly. For further thought on the subject listen to Greg Boyd's discussions on Hell on the Woodland Hills church website.
grin

However, I am NOT a political socialist. Far, far from it. It the church was doing it's job then the socialist government would not be extracting money from the unwilling and those in real need would be receiving what they really need from funds willingly given. Those who do not really have needs such as those who think welfare is a legitimate career and just want to sit on their fat behinds would be forced to work.
Absolutely.

Unfortunately, due to human nature there will always be lazy freeloaders. Even in situations where the church is dispensing 'welfare' there are, and will be, cheats.

In the small community where my parents live a family started attending their small church. They supposedly ran into major financial problems with medical bills, etc. The churches in the area (and the community) helped raise funds for the family only to later learn it was spent on frivolities such as TV's for all the kid's rooms, etc. They quickly disappeared from the church, obviously. Kind of a dangerous thing to do in a small, mill town with a lot of people rather, uh, 'less forgiving' than the church folk!

Welfare, in and of itself, is not a bad/evil concept. However, it's like you said, the gov is totally incompetent (and uncaring) to handle it on the national scale (probably no entity could police it on that level). Hence, there is a LOT of filthy bathwater mixed in with the baby.
There's a sordid world of difference between socialist coercion and voluntary sharing. (I speak from a long life time of front-line experience on both sides of the line.)

The dearth of voluntary sharing leaves coerced sharing as the default "option" for many of us.

Just between you and me, I'm 99% incapacitated physically, 100% fiscally. I've spent my life serving without expecting or receiving compensation (with small, infrequent, and rare exceptions � what I got, I worked for). I've given vehicles and other valuable assets away, and tens of thousands in cash. Now I have nothing left.

Have any of you who've read my theological essays here read the blurbs just below the copyright notice? It may interest you to know two things �

� I've granted other ministries permission to use those and other essays without charge. And they've used 'em.

� To date, I've received exactly 0� from those blurbs. So I have to depend on a Social Security check that I have to sign under a microscope, so that I can continue to subsist on shadow soup made with dehydrated water. grin

And I still give what I can, whenever I can � voluntarily, not because socialistic government programs for free-loaders force me to.

(This is just between you and me � please don't tell anybody what I've just said about my own situation.)
My oldest daughter discovered her husband was cheating on her for all their fourteen years. He agreed to go to counseling but then just left her for greener pastures. He left her and her two children with no income. Then he set out to destroy her in any way possible including going to their church and mouthing off about how bad she was. Sew was counseled by a family councilor at the church to forgive him and take him back she opened up and showed her proof. The councilor was shocked as that was not the story as they knew it. But he was still welcomed with open arms even though he was living with another woman from his cheaters club.

When she went for help because she was behind in utilities and had no food she was told there were no funds to help. This was from a mega church with an annual budget exceeding two million a year. I know this because I served as an elder and a board member for over ten years in that church before we moved out of the community.

I can say with all honesty that is not the way to run a church.
Originally Posted by MojoHand
Originally Posted by M77shooter
One example of this is Rob Bell's questioning the reality of hell-to name one.


Originally Posted by George_De_Vries_3rd

Bell out of Michigan, mentioned above, is an example of which there have been many -- a wolf in sheeps clothing, again, preaching a No-Hell gospel. Jesus mentioned hell in the NT much more often than He ever mentioned heaven for example.


Rob Bell DOES NOT deny or question the reality of Hell--only it's nature. Read the whole book and try to think about and answer his questions honestly. For further thought on the subject listen to Greg Boyd's discussions on Hell on the Woodland Hills church website.


I have not read the book but have heard from enough thoughtful, mature Christians, including John Piper of Bethlehem Baptist in Minneapolis who have read Bell and uniformly said, "goodbye", to him. And that is enough for me.

I would suggest you google, "Kevin de Jong Reviews Bob Bell", for added perspective.
About 1947, a man came to the parsonage one night with a heart-breaking and infuriating problem.

He'd come home the evening before to find the house as empty as a ping-pong ball and the mortgage and car payments months past due. He had only the clothes that he wore and the cash in his pocket. He'd just brought a good-sized salary check home, but that was gone, too � and he wouldn't get another for a while.

For decades, he'd given substantially to the Red Cross and other charities (which they confirmed). But they gave him ne'er a flippin' cent of assistance. His church, which he'd supported generously for decades, hadn't helped him beyond the offer of prayers.

Dad and I gave him Dad's overcoat (a valuable garment that I was supposed to inherit), all the clothes that we could spare, a suitcase, and all the cash in the house.
Originally Posted by Scott F
My oldest daughter discovered her husband was cheating on her for all their fourteen years. He agreed to go to counseling but then just left her for greener pastures. He left her and her two children with no income. Then he set out to destroy her in any way possible including going to their church and mouthing off about how bad she was. Sew was counseled by a family councilor at the church to forgive him and take him back she opened up and showed her proof. The councilor was shocked as that was not the story as they knew it. But he was still welcomed with open arms even though he was living with another woman from his cheaters club.

When she went for help because she was behind in utilities and had no food she was told there were no funds to help. This was from a mega church with an annual budget exceeding two million a year. I know this because I served as an elder and a board member for over ten years in that church before we moved out of the community.

I can say with all honesty that is not the way to run a church.


That is a sad story and on the face of it a shameful one (for that church).
In my opinion, and we all know what opinions are worth, that is where giving should come from.
Originally Posted by Scott F
In my opinion, and we all know what opinions are worth, that is where giving should come from.
Of course all giving SHOULD come from the private sector. But the government can't have that as those who worship government (for their hand outs) might be inclined to worship elsewhere. No sir, can NOT have that....
Originally Posted by George_De_Vries_3rd

To add a little context to my point above, there are places in hostile environments (ie China) where the underground church is flourishing and strong with no new carpet, no air conditioning, no coffee bar; in fact no church building at all. Just preaching Christ in basements, back rooms, in corners of fields weather permitting. In many cases they don't even have Bibles but much as in the first century, pass around hand-copied, partial chapters of this book or that.






I have often heard how persecution has a purifying effect on the church and believe it. A refining fire so to speak.

I also believe a church is for believers. To teach, worship, and mutual support so that during ,"the rest of their week" they could rightfully disciple, minister, and add to their numbers.

When church becomes about the unchurched things fall apart,IME/IMO.
Originally Posted by FVA
� When church becomes about the unchurched things fall apart �

Forgotten facts �

The books of the New Testament were addressed to people who were already disciples of the risen Christ.

They weren't written as systematic explications of Christianity for the untaught but as "problem-solving" reminders, to the faithful, of how to handle problems that had arisen within the ekklesia of Christ during the years after His ascension.
Originally Posted by Ken Howell
Originally Posted by FVA
� When church becomes about the unchurched things fall apart �

Forgotten facts �

The books of the New Testament were addressed to people who were already disciples of the risen Christ.

They weren't written as systematic explications of Christianity for the untaught but as "problem-solving" reminders, to the faithful, of how to handle problems that had arisen within the ekklesia of Christ during the years after His ascension.


Heard a good sermon tonight on Judges 8, Micah's idolatry. Many parts of the sermon brought thoughts of this thread title.
Lines like,"everyone did what was right in his own eyes".
My pastor spoke to how our view as an individual,and church, of who God is being of utmost importance. Spoke of absolute truth. One way.
There is a way which seems right to a man, But its end is the way of death.
Convicting stuff.
In our church this week, the preacher was a real Jerk! mad











Wait a second! I was the preacher this week! blush
Quote
They weren't written as systematic explications of Christianity for the untaught but as "problem-solving" reminders, to the faithful, of how to handle problems that had arisen within the ekklesia of Christ during the years after His ascension.

True. I've many times had Mormons try to tell me that James was written to non-believers telling them how to work their way to heaven. However, it was written to saved Jews telling them how to use their new saving faith in Christ to work for the Lord.
Who was it who said that he'd have nothing to do with any bunch who'd have anything to do with the likes of him? Mark Twain? Will Rogers? Oscar Levant? Groucho Marx? (I can't remember!)
Originally Posted by George_De_Vries_3rd
Originally Posted by MojoHand
Originally Posted by M77shooter
One example of this is Rob Bell's questioning the reality of hell-to name one.


Originally Posted by George_De_Vries_3rd

Bell out of Michigan, mentioned above, is an example of which there have been many -- a wolf in sheeps clothing, again, preaching a No-Hell gospel. Jesus mentioned hell in the NT much more often than He ever mentioned heaven for example.


Rob Bell DOES NOT deny or question the reality of Hell--only it's nature. Read the whole book and try to think about and answer his questions honestly. For further thought on the subject listen to Greg Boyd's discussions on Hell on the Woodland Hills church website.


I have not read the book but have heard from enough thoughtful, mature Christians, including John Piper of Bethlehem Baptist in Minneapolis who have read Bell and uniformly said, "goodbye", to him. And that is enough for me.

I would suggest you google, "Kevin de Jong Reviews Bob Bell", for added perspective.


I choose not to pay for a book that will put $$ in his pocket. I read the article in Time magazine about him. It might very well be true that he doesn't deny the existence of hell. However, from the quotes in the article he leans toward universalism. That is clearly not the teachings of scripture. I have read books of those whom I disagree with in the past and have probably read all of the arguments for everyone going to heaven in the end, so I doubt that Bell has anything new to add so I will not even borrow the book to read his distortion of the scriptures.

Thanks to Dr. Howell for pointing out that the church's role in giving to the poor is different from the government in that one should give voluntarily and cheerfully while the government takes forcefully.
Originally Posted by Rock Chuck

True. I've many times had Mormons try to tell me that James was written to non-believers telling them how to work their way to heaven. However, it was written to saved Jews telling them how to use their new saving faith in Christ to work for the Lord.


If you want to change your life read the book of James all the way through every day for a month. I have done it and recommended it to several friends who were going through dark times. It has never failed to make a change for the better.
Originally Posted by Ken Howell
Who was it who said that he'd have nothing to do with any bunch who'd have anything to do with the likes of him? Mark Twain? Will Rogers? Oscar Levant? Groucho Marx? (I can't remember!)


It wasn't me but the shoe fits real well.
Originally Posted by M77shooter
Originally Posted by George_De_Vries_3rd
Originally Posted by MojoHand
Originally Posted by M77shooter
One example of this is Rob Bell's questioning the reality of hell-to name one.


Originally Posted by George_De_Vries_3rd

Bell out of Michigan, mentioned above, is an example of which there have been many -- a wolf in sheeps clothing, again, preaching a No-Hell gospel. Jesus mentioned hell in the NT much more often than He ever mentioned heaven for example.


Rob Bell DOES NOT deny or question the reality of Hell--only it's nature. Read the whole book and try to think about and answer his questions honestly. For further thought on the subject listen to Greg Boyd's discussions on Hell on the Woodland Hills church website.


I have not read the book but have heard from enough thoughtful, mature Christians, including John Piper of Bethlehem Baptist in Minneapolis who have read Bell and uniformly said, "goodbye", to him. And that is enough for me.

I would suggest you google, "Kevin de Jong Reviews Bob Bell", for added perspective.


I choose not to pay for a book that will put $$ in his pocket. I read the article in Time magazine about him. It might very well be true that he doesn't deny the existence of hell. However, from the quotes in the article he leans toward universalism. That is clearly not the teachings of scripture. I have read books of those whom I disagree with in the past and have probably read all of the arguments for everyone going to heaven in the end, so I doubt that Bell has anything new to add so I will not even borrow the book to read his distortion of the scriptures.

Thanks to Dr. Howell for pointing out that the church's role in giving to the poor is different from the government in that one should give voluntarily and cheerfully while the government takes forcefully.


I agree with you. I was responding primarily to Mojo- who seemed to agree with Bell's heterodoxy-- heresy.
Originally Posted by Ken Howell
Who was it who said that he'd have nothing to do with any bunch who'd have anything to do with the likes of him? Mark Twain? Will Rogers? Oscar Levant? Groucho Marx? (I can't remember!)


Groucho Marx.
MasterBlaster-I knew that friend. Not real computer literate and some times misfire-lol. God bless-Eddie
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