Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Long Range Hunting LONG RANGE???

Stush, the one guy is fairly short, so if he paced it off it probably was 800 yrds (for him). But this aint just one guy either. There are at least 2 claiming 800 yrd shots and a few others at 6 or 7 hundred. Just your average everyday bull sh**, you know? Fisherman aren't the only liars around. Anyway, these clowns pretty much ignore me, as they know I won't listen to a lie. What bothers me is there are some inexperienced guys who are dumb enough to buy this crap, and think any deer within 3 miles can be shot.
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<br>These fellows here have put alot of time and money into these long shots, and while the hunting end of it doesn't float my boat, I'd love to see the shooting done. For the effort they put forth, I'm inclined to believe that they are effective at it, and that's all I'm concerned about, making the effort to take the game, not letting them go to feed the possums. Lord knows there are too many yo-yos doing that at all ranges, with all kinds of weaponry.
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<br>Boyd, I'll ask around and see if I can come up with a place around here. I've got a friend who has a .338 Lapua who would just love to meet you. He has expressed an interest in this stuff already. As for me, I'd love to see you all shoot, but when it comes to hunting, I prefer to be on my own and in the woods.
<br>7mm

WOW, what a coming home party! Thanks guys, for the support but we ought to cut old Don some slack. He had such a time with his old handle I think it left him a little bitter, he will be alright, just having growing pains.
<br>Don, all I can say is, walk softly partner, every day, your are one step closer to my age. Age does have it's draw backs and I feel them but my trigger finger still twiches when the season rolls around and I am out there somewhere. You forget, there are many around this campfire that have retired, every comment hits them also.You received good advice, perhaps you are sitting too close to the fire, kick back and enjoy this campfire together. -- no

Quote "For those that don't beleive you or THINK in their narrow minds that you aren't hunting,,,,,,,let em think whatever they want. It's to bad that such narrow minded people exhist."
<br>(I didn't correct the spelling.)
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<br>Don, making a statement like that in light of the preceding posts surely does not need any names mentioned to know to whom you are referring.
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<br>As to your last (Please God, make it the last!!!) post , quote "Add something useful to the thread, versus attacking me, if your capable of doing so." (Syntax not corrected either.), I respectfully refer you to my first post on this thread. I make no pretensions as to my shooting skills, neither do I condemn those who choose to hunt in a manner different to my own. I do not, however, see the need to throw myself prone and fawn all over these gentlemen who choose to take their game at long distances & be in awe of their abilities. They have made in investment in high quality equipment and invest the time in practise to hone their skills. Doesn't mean I would hunt in that manner, assuming my eyesight and equipment were up to the task. You will notice if you read my first post, that I was not at all critical of long range shooting, rather I was interested to learn more about it. I responded to your drivel simply because I believe that debate should be conducted with good old fashioned manners. You stepped over the line & obviously I'm not alone in my opinion. badger.
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<br>"Never wrestle with a pig, he will enjoy it, you will get dirty."

DonKnows, I've been abstaining from this, watching most of the fellows defending long range shooting digging yourselves in deeper. NO comes on a little strong, but common sense and physics are on his side. Anyone claiming to shoot regularly at wild animals at 1000 yards or more and always making either a clean miss or a vital hit, is stretching our credulity. And that is true the more we know about shooting, not the less.
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<br> I applaud the advances you guys are making in technoloogy and the art of extreme long range accuracy. I'm not comfortable with some of your choices on game shots, but life is too short to waste time disagreeing on this kind of issue. I'd actually enjoy talking over hunts and shots on game with you in person, as I would with any personable hunter. Your thin skin makes it sound like you are trying to convice yourself, and that makes for an uncomfortable conversation.
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<br>Now Big Stick, he shoots long when needed, but it's just one of the tools in his kit. He stalks a lot of them close and shoots them through a hole in the brush. Curiously, he has impressed me with his judgment about when and how to shoot long. He's done that by not making such extreme statements, and by hunting accounts that match real life experience.
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<br>Whenever anyone starts making or implying absolute statements, like always going up to a mile across country to check an apparently missed shot, all bullets can be seen at the end of a 1500 yard flight (in all light conditions?), long range shooters are more conscientious than others, etc. you hurt your case. I knew one really good long range shooter, who killed a lot of deer across a canyon at ranges from 900 yards to over 1500. He wounded a few. His 25 or 30 immitators wounded a lot, so many that the game department made it illegal to shoot across that canyon, written in the game regulations as a no shooting area. I applauded his ability but was disappointed at the overall outcome. All of those guys were long range hunters, not just the one who could shoot well.
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<br> Hey, we'll give you slack to lug out a heavy rifle and shoot as far as you want. I'm interested in hearing about how you do it. Just don't be like most special interest groups in America and demand we approve. Most of us are tolerant, which by definition means we tolerate something that we don't endorse or that makes us uncomfortable. You don't need NO's approval to shoot at a deer a mile away, nor mine.
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Gentlemen,
<br>If anyone on this site is interested in learning about Long Range Hunting feel free to ask away.

I'm tired of all this pussy footing around you guys are doing so you don't hurt the feelings of these so called long range hunters. The type of people that indulge in this sort of activity is no better than all the rest of the so called hunters that put hunting in a bad light. Everyone of you out there knows this is wrong. Every time the media talks about poachers, jack lighters, people that shoot trophies and take only the antlers, they refer tp them as hunters. They put them into the same class as you and I. When they find out about these guys , they will do the same thing. Maybe you don't know this, but the futureof hunting rest with a large segment of the populace that does not hunt, but neither thinks it good or bad. Every time some group does something like this, the anti hunters have another nail in the coffin to sway that segment of the populace.
<br> They themselves know it is wrong or hey wouldn't spend so much effort defending themselves. The only thing they invest in this are thier egos so they will have bragging rights as to how far they can kill an animal. Too lazy to get off thier duffs and learn woodsmanship, stalking techniques and everything else we all learned in our aprenticeship.Given enough money, we could all buy the asme equipment, and most could do the same thing. Maybe you won't say they are not welcome here, but I will. In my world there is no place for this type of killing. And if Don Knows wants to take a shot a me , go ahead, I don't have quite as long a tooth as No, and I won't be as mannerly

Hey Saddleburr:
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<br>You wrote: "Given enough money, we could all buy the asme equipment, and most could do the same thing. Maybe you won't say they are not welcome here, but I will. In my world there is no place for this type of killing."
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<br>Well, I dunno, I consider myself a pretty good shot and I shoot fairly regularly at 500 meters but killing a deer regularly at twice that distance and more is quite a feat IMO. I'm not necessarily saying I couldn't do it, but I can say that lots of people can't. For instance the Varmint Hunters Association which has quite a few members keeps a list of varmint hunters with confirmed kills at varying distances, 500 yards being the closest as I recall, at any rate, the number of hunters with confirmed kills drops off dramatically at 1000 yards and becomes positively minimal at 1500. Last time I checked the longest confiremed kill to date was 3120 yards. as I recall. So it ain't all that easy with the best of equipment. Judging the wind is the critical component I believe, given that you have to laser the distances.
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<br>Now, I don't know who made you the judge of who should be welcome around this fireplace but as far as I am concerned any hunter or shooter of good will is welcome and these guys are welcome around any campfire that I have. Tell me, in your world is a dead deer somehow different because it was killed at closer ranges? Last time I checked in mine, dead is dead.
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Well I can't condemn a man,for doing the very things I enjoy too. Killing is killing in my book. Some term it different,alternate implements are used,but the focal point is the same. I don't feel the need to apologize,for trying my damndest to fill tags,in the manner I choose. Especially when all of that,is well within legal restrictions.
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<br>My life isn't spent trying to sway some fence straddler,to come on over to my way of thinking. Nobody can make someone who doesn't want to Hunt,become a Hunter. All you can do,is open windows of opportunity and allow those inclined to get a taste of what it's all about and decide for themselves.
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<br>So if a guy wants to Fly Fish while I'm Drift Fishing,I could care less. That many deem Rifle Hunting as unsportsmanlike,compared to Archery,causes me zero grief. Just because I couldn't personally man a treestand for 8hrs without going nuts,doesn't mean there should be legislature to preclude their use,to satisfy my selfish wishes.
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<br>Nor do I think I'm so smart,that I should write a Rule Book for others to blindly follow,to humor my whim.
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<br>My deepest concerns are in regards to the Bozos that practice little and are blazing away at everything they can get a crack at. That regardless of anything. They are the littering slobs,that have zero respect for personal property or anything else in general.
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<br>To ride some guys that have found a niche that suits them and they are adept at,seems ridiculous in the extreme. And a damn shame in general.
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<br>Your mileage may vary..................
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Saddlesore
<br>What better way for "them" to win than to split up hunters into factions and win by getting us to call one another names? People need to realize that there are lots of ways of doing the same thing, and just because someone else has a different solution to the problem doesn't mean they don't have the right one.
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<br>Lighten up, these guys are serious enough for all of us.
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<br>Lee
<br>Had left out the numbers that Ben told us about on the oryx, mostly because I was pretty disgusted by it, but now that you have that in the open... any of you naysayers to LR have any ideas??? How do you legislate ethics?
<br>art
<br>art

Saddlesore
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<br>Now that I have brought my folding chair over to the fire and a pack of hot dogs, let me clear something up for you.
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<br>I'm 61 years old and have hunted all ways there are to hunt and take game. I have certainly taken my share and then some in all styles of hunting and in several States.
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<br>I'm in Pennsylvania and have not missed a buck season in 40 years now. I still climb up in my tree stand and bow hunt, sometimes grab my muzzle loader and take it for a walk. I also take my factory carry rifle and take a walk in the mountains of PA, WV and Colorado when I'm hunting for deer and elk.
<br>This is usually done only to stretch my legs and take a break from glassing the far mountains with our large binoculars (Bigeyes) while my LR friends and I are Longrange hunting.
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<br>In between times my wife, who also hunts with me, and I are at ALL the 1000 yard matches at Williamsport where we have not missed a 1000 yard match since 1987 and are officers in the club.
<br> You might say we are not the 3 day a year hunter who still has 4 or 5 rounds in his one box of shells he bought 5 years ago.
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<br>We (my LR friends and I) also go woodchuck hunting and kill at ranges you would not believe. This is to prepare us for the big game season ahead. So you see we do a lot of practicing.
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<br>My favorite way of hunting is to Longrange and extreme longrange hunt for deer and elk. Again, you would not believe how far my LR hunting friends and I have killed game and NOT LOST ANY to date.
<br> This is due to the equipment we have and the practice we do to know how to use it. For instance, Our laser rangefinders are military units and you can't buy any commercial unit that comes close to doing what these things will do. We know within 5 seconds how far that animal is.
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<br>Our equipment is the best we can find and our practice using such, continues all year. When we go after game, we are well prepared and know what the bullets are capable of at the yardages we shoot.
<br>We NEVER shoot at a running animal and when we do shoot it is well thought out before hand.
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<br>For those of you who don't understand it, you probably have never seen it done correctly. It may NEVER be your cup of tea but, that's alright too.
<br>Sort of, you hunt your way and we will hunt ours because both ways are legal in every State.
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<br>I am NOT trying to convince anybody that they should LR hunt. I am also not trying to justify Longrange hunting to anyone. I don't have to. We just want you to know that it (LR Hunting) is getting very popular and we will be glad to answer questions from the newbies coming into it, to help them out.
<br>You can't walk into your gunshop and carry out a 300 RUM Sendaro with a Mark 4 or Leupold LR 8 1/2X to 25 X scope on it and call yourself a LR hunter. It takes YEARS of practice to be proficient at it. We are only promoting safety and the effective way of placing a bullet downrange.
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<br>We, the dedicated longrange hunters know what we can do and what shots we can take of can't take. We have been doing it for Many years now and I will do it till I can't sign my license any longer..
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<br>For someone to say we are lazy is a pure untruth. Our work really starts when the animal goes down. We have to go down the mountain we shot from and climb the mountain the game is laying on, then cut it up and pack it out.
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<br>We are not saying your way of hunting is wrong and who are you or anyone else to say our way is wrong?
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<br>Is there a right and wrong in killing anything with a bow or rifle other then quickly? If so, show me that in a game law or State stature involving the taking of game.
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<br>We (LR Hunters) are the safest hunters in the world. No one has EVER been hurt, wounded or killed by a LR hunter. The short range shooters (i'm also one of those) can't say that.
<br>We know where every piece of orange is on the far mountains by the use of our optical bigeyes and we will never put a shot anywhere near another hunter. No game animal that ever walked is worth that.
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<br>So to sum this up, some of us hunt or have hunted and taken game ALL ways and know what the difference is between the various styles of hunting. Until a person experiances the LR way, he will never know what it's like.
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<br>Again, we don't have to justify what we do to anyone.
<br>We are just stating facts.
<br>Dead is dead no matter what the range is as long as you are comfortable with the shot. You should know your limitations at all times.
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<br>If anyone would like to email me concerning LR shooting or hunting, the address is --DCasselaol.com
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<br>Thanks for having me around your fire again tonight. I just filled up on Hot dogs.
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<br>Darryl Cassel

There are some folks commiting the unforgivable campfire sin;Taking yourself too seriously.
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<br>It aint the LR hunters doing it.
<br>Igot a question for the fella using the 416/338;Does it have a brake?

Hi,Darrel I'm glad you decided to post as you have more knowledge than just about anyone in this.
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<br>Thank you to those that have welcomed us LR guys here.
<br>For those that say that we are defending ourselves,where not.This thread started because someone said it couldn't or shouldent be done.All we(Boyd,DC,myself and others)are trying to do is explain that it can be done, quit easily FOR US.
<br>Now I'm going to setup a situation for you to see how I would do it.
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<br>Well start off with equipment first.
<br>Rem. M700 300Ultra mag.
<br>Leupold 6.5-20LR
<br>220gr MK's at 2820fps.
<br>Laser range finder
<br>Plam PDA with ballistic program
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<br>Watch that gives me the ENV and MET conditions
<br>AND MY SPOTTER THE MOST IMPORTANT THING
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<br>Say we spot a deer,the first thing we will do is make sure there is no orange(hunters)any where near the target.Then I take a range reading, while me spotter gets the MET/ENV conditions and puts them in the computer.He gives me the MOA comeups and the wind call.After that he puts his eye in the spotting scope and never takes it off the deer again.When he says to fire I shoot as soon I am steady.He watches the trace ALL THE WAY TO THE ANIMAL,and if I miss or wound,not likely,he gives me the MOA corrections.Something you need to understand is the animals do not react like they would if shot up close 400yds or so in.When shot even if they are wounded THEY ALWAYS LAY DOWN.They not run off like you think, they stay very close to where you hit them.
<br>I go for one shot hits,but that is pretty hard without a lot of trigger time,and training.Most serieus LR hunters use the spotter methed for shots over 1000yds.
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<br>For anybody that thinks Boyd, DC and myself are trying to brag,your sorely mistaken.We have absalutly no reason to brag.We all know what we are capable of,and like DC said he hasn't even told you what ranges he's able to consistantly kill deer.Try 2000yds plus.
<br>The ones that have answered here know there stuff and can back it up.We practice all the time.I practice consantly,last year my spotter and I shot over 17,000 rounds.This year where on pace to shoot 25,000.
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<br>This seems like a good site with mostly good people.And for someone that truely wants to know how its done and not just have prejustice,I invite you to come to www.longrangehunting.com.But we rule it with an iron hand and will not accept any name calling,calling someone a liar,or people Qestioning the ethics of it.Its soley a place to learn without anybody badgering you.
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Hello Gene and Seal
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<br>Gene
<br>I'm the one using the 338/416 Rigby Imp and No it does not have a break.
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<br>Seal
<br>Thanks for the kind words and the very good list of equipment most of us have and also the procedure we use.
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<br>Darryl Cassel

What are you shooting,that will stay supersonic,at 2K?..........

DC, -- A question, No flame or flack, you or one of the LR shooters stated if the first shot misses sometimes the deer will go over to the spot and smell the dust from the spot. Well, with all your rangefinders, charts, big eyes, why didn't that first shot kill?? It could have wounded!!! The animal moved and you talk about doing the click thing and having a dead deer. Balononononey. None of your clan ever wounded a deer, I can't believe that. You and I know it is impossible to physically hold a rifle steady enough to even shoot close at a 1000 yards. One of these young shooters with fresh eyes can line up a 30 pound rifle sight laying on bags and do the same thing you are doing. The real skill is in the loading of the ammo, quality componets, building the rifle and it's care, and knowing how set it up for the shot. That's what I am interested in, not shooting at a living thing as target, to me that's foolish, when it's not needed and you know that also, if you are the hunter you claim to be. -- no

SNIPER,
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<br>Is the 300Ultra a Factory rifle,or did you have it built? Do you find the HS stock serviceable? What kind of results can you get,at 1K on the average,with the Ultra? Are you having any luck,with barrel life? Are all the rounds you mention,fired through your long range Hunting rifles,or is most of it 308Win type stuff?
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<br>Just curious.............
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No,the guys have said repeatedly that they have not LOST a deer.I havent seen any claims about the game always being nailed in it's tracks.Iknow you dont count an animal as lost just because it runs over the ridge and you find it laying dead or maybe have to finish it off.
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<br>They just have the skill,equipment,and - most important the want to - to duplicate at distance what the rest of us do at lesser distance.That doesn't make them a lesser hunter, or me a lesser shooter.
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<br>We need to start identifying and quit comparing.

Wow, 25,000 rounds a year. Not all that much for a shotgunner, but for a rifle.....Wow. Hmmm, approximately 70 rounds a day, everyday. Someone must work nights or not at all and keep the barrel makers very happy.

Good point,CAT.If the muzzle jump on his 300 Ultra is half as bad as the one I had,the guy is going to build up a tremendous amount of gripping strength in his hands!

Okanagan,
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<br>I'm a bit confused. I am not sure if you wanted to address me on this or if you read somebody else's posts and thought I said it. I have never said I shoot animals across canyons at 900 yards, or further, so I assume you meant to address somebody else. Where I LR hunt, the field I watch is 750 yards across, at the longest point. The land is very flat, I doubt it goes up and down more then 4 feet all the way across the 750 yards. So, as you can see I surely don't shoot across any canyon and it is not possible for me to shoot further then 750 yards (from that location). Now, I do hunt on farms (for woodchucks) that shots of 1000 yards plus are possible. My best kill to date on a woodchuck using my 22 is 660 yards. My best kill to date on a deer is 420 yards. I do have my gun/scope worked out to 650 yards but unfortunately I have yet to have an opportunity at a deer at the 650 yard mark, hopefully one day I will. In the past 3 years I have killed deer at, 420 yards (3), 380 yards, 250 yards, 400 yards, and 75 yards.
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<br>I shoot about 300 to 400 rounds a year, LR, on both paper and woodchucks and deer. Not near as many as these guys that shoot in Williamsport. It's probably a good thing I am 4 hours drive from Williamsport or I would be right in there talking and learning from those guys since long rang is of interest to me. I may just take another trip over to Williamsport and give it a whirl if the guys here are willing to help me out. I would truly enjoy it.
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<br>As to being thin skinned, sorry, but I had to laugh at that, I am not at all thinned skinned, .
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<br>How do I kill deer at long range, you asked.
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<br>I started by having a 300 win mag built on a Rem 700 action, schnieder S/S barrel, 5 1/2 contour, 27 1/2" long, McMillan GP Graphite stock, Bad Ord rings and bases, Schmidt & Bender 4 to 16 X 50 PM II scope with mil dot reticle. I am going to have a McMillan Hunter class stock bedded later this spring and I will use the GP stock I now have on that rifle for another rifle I am going to have built. Nothing real fancy or out of the ordinary about my rifle. With the scope it weighs 11 1/2 lbs, so it's not really that heavy.
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<br>I set up targets at 100, 200, 300, 400, 450, 500, 550, 600, 650 yards and started shooting. When I was ON at the various yardages I documented the elevation adjustments. I do practice at those yardages every year (on paper) to ensure that I am still ON at all those various yardages. When hunting, I have my rifle sitting on a Bald Eagle front rest, a leather rear bag that all sits on a swivel bench. I had a different top made for the bench 2 years ago. The old one was 1/2 ply wood and wasn't stiff enough. The top on it now is laminated maple and it's 3" thick, very stiff now.
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<br>I shoot 180gr ballistic tips at a measured velocity of 3180FPS. Those are not real hot loads, by any means.
<br>I use the BT's because of the accuracy and flatness in which they shoot. I know there have been many debates about using bench rest bullets on game. I do use a bench rest bullet out of my 22 CHeetah MK 1 on game and it works great.
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<br>When long range hunting (for me, thats limited to 650 yards) I have the chart with all my elevation adjustments, Leica Geovids for ranging the distance to the deer, and of course my rifle set up on the front rest/rear bag on the swivel bench. When I see a deer come out of the woods (with my naked eyes) to feed in the harvested corn/bean fields I check the distance with the range finder, make the appropriate elevation adjustment, swing the bench over in the direction of the deer, get down on the rifle, get as steady as I can, wait till the deer is broadside, squeeze the 2 1/2lb trigger gently and smoothly. If it is to windy I don't shoot. If the deer isn't broadside, I don't shoot. Conditions have to be right to take the shot.
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<br>If it is windy out I have another elevated stand in which to hunt from that shots of only 280 yards are made. Sometimes I stalk hunt in the woods using my carry rifle, 7mm mag. It all depends on the conditions and how long I have to hunt and how I feel like hunting that day.
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<br>I am not in any way trying to convince anybody to go the LR route, but, if they are interested, I am always more then willing to help out in any way I can. I am sure that these guys that shoot at Williamsport know a lot more about shooting at much further distances then I do. I am very interested in what they have to say. I think we could ALL learn from them even if we don't ALL LR hunt.
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<br>Don
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<br>P.S. Maybe a 100lb rail gun is in my future, you never know,