Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Muzzleloaders Black Powder Competition Muzzleloading Rifles

Ha, we posted about 1 minute apart. Appreciate your thoughts, particularly the part about barrel alloy. Feel free to expand on that if you like. I have a lot of background things going and will be a wee bit scarce for the balance of the day and all of this evening.

One of the problems I have in doing something like this thread is trying to stay focused on the subject. There is so much crossover into different disciplines and a whale of a lot of debate over rules since you brought it up. I'll paste the current NRC rules below and perhaps that can open the debate/discussion?

On the way out the door, but since barrel steel was mentioned, a picture below of the Reinhard barrel. Both it and the D.Hilliard rifle barrel were made with cast steel and stamped on the barrel in the photo. Remington was a major supplier of barrels of this type during the hey day of this sport.

While this is true , we should also understand that �Cast Iron /steel � in this context , Isn�t what a lot of those here maybe thinking off .
What it means is the barrel is what we know as PIG IRON " if Iron "
The Remington foundries actually had a problem because what they were doing was making wrought iron, which would not forge weld properly . So to make a long story short , they came up with a way to center drill the barrels .
However they had big issues with quality and the barrels they were making , in so many words Sucked .
Let me say that the above statement isn�t my opinion , its documented fact and Remington knew it .

So what to do ? Well they bought their barrel blanks from England . Then center drilled them here . So Hopefully what your looking at is an English barrel that�s bored by Remington OR one of the later Remington barrels that they started making after the Bessemer process was discovered . In which case the barrel is actually closer to mild steel and the word Cast relates to the the process of making the steel , NOT as a term of casting a barrel

here is some reading on the subject
http://www.muzzleblasts.com/archives/vol4no3/articles/mbo43-3.shtml

Interesting link that. Thanks!

A .40 caliber gun by Ken Bresien. Posted here to illustrate a very good way to service the rifle for match shooting. This is by the way, a very successful rifle and won the 2009 NRC championship. It uses cross strip patches, but otherwise I am ignorant of the specifications. It uses sealed ignition rather than open nipple with direct hammer strike.



From the top, note the FM is tied to the loading fixture. More than one FM has taken a ride down range and it is something to be avoided.

Next, you see the bullet seater in a conveniently accessible location, two range rods likewise. One is for swabbing the bore and the other for seating the bullet. Caps, monkey fist, notes, all available on the counter.

Note also the orientation of the gun. Scope toward the shooter is the most common iteration but carries some baggage in my opinion. The load fixture does not have a deep recess and the gun is somewhat vulnerable to being dislodged and falling. This can occur by snagging articles of clothing on scope adjustment screws etc. Another but less common approach is to relieve the fixture sufficiently to allow scope orientation away from the shooter and take advantage of stock geometry to instill more security. I go both ways as circumstances require, but prefer to have the scope oriented away from me rather than front and center.

Good stuff, great pics.

dubePA, I hope you know that PA is one of the hotbeds of this sport in the US.....really.

Well, havent been here much, Dan invited me over to share my lack of knowledge. I am the lucky owner of a 2 action 4/barrel set made by RL Morris and all the tooling. I also have a pistol he made and a Bresien barrelled, ballard action 32-40 muzzleloade/breach seater. First the pics!
The percussion guns and tooling (60 RB, 45 RB and 485 Slug gun)

The 60 at the range

Latest target, still workin on it 5 or 6 shots, cant remember, open sights at 100 yrds.

The flintlock, just shot this for the first time.

2 5shot groups at 100, open sights, still got some work to do

The slug gun, mitchell 27x scope

various slugs that have been cast, 2 part slugs (hard nose/soft tail swaged together)630-700 grains, .224 for compare

The ballard action rifle, breech seater, false muzzle etc

I am currently redoing the action, changing from cast to forged action, doing some fitting

ok back to the morris stuff,
a picture of what a sealed ignition looks like, note the partial threads, these are all underhammer (3) not the flinter of course


the slug prior to swaging, male/female parts

Swage blocks and mould, cross paper cutter

customized rear sights, came with 3 types, all redfield with apeture control

The rest the barrels sit on, they are heavy 35-55 lbs depending

A few of the barrels, note the false muzzles and how the are pinned and slide on, the other end secures to the action

Percussion action/underhammer


let me know if i can answer any questions, I will then guess at an answer and wait for dan to correct me! (the web and dan have been a huge help with my new hobby)

Thanks for this, and I mean that sincerely. It is a really nice set you have there and I am particularly interested in how the slug barrel shoots. Figuring if you can shoot RBs like that you are required to do one hole groups with the slugger out to...oh...let's say 100 rods....

Yeah, I'm mean like that.

Thanks again!

I'll add my thanks also. Good shootin' too! May I ask what your alloys are for the different sections of the bullet, or has Dan or someone else mentioned that and I missed it?

Vic

Thanks for the pictorial. What purpose does the sealed ignition serve? I'm assuming it uses a standard cap, or does it utilize a rifle primer?

ya great photos , thank very much

Having received a couple of requests for direction, I shall supply what info I have regarding how to locate such arms, or have them built. I have no financial interest in any arms company, builders of components or dealers. I do recognize quality craftsmanship when I see it.

At present there are 5 areas in the country where I know such shooting takes place. Pennsylvania, Oregon/Washington, Ohio, Florida and Cody, WY. I am quite certain these are not the only locations, but they are the ones I know about. A little searching by anyone interested is likely to turn up additional locations. The NMLRA is likely to be a good source of information as indicated previously. The links below should serve as information or contacts for purchase of older guns or leads to same. In some cases it is not obvious from the web site home page that a source of information or expertise is available and given specific inquiry I may be able to direct you to a particular party for specific purpose. As an example, the Rocky Mountain Cartridge owner is a gifted machinist with a passion for this type of pursuit. In fact he whipped my azz in the picket rifle match referenced previously.

http://www.wyomingarmory.com/firearms/target-competition/
http://www.bartleinbarrels.com/
http://www.kriegerbarrels.com/
http://www.longrifles-pr.com/
http://www.longrifles-pr.com/actions.shtml
http://unertl.alexweb.net/
http://www.snipercountry.com/Articles/1860TargetRifle.asp
http://wyomingschuetzen.com/forum/index.php?sid=a7a296bdd2f4f319054fd18115a35433
http://www.rockymountaincartridge.com/
http://www.montanavintagearms.com/

Several thoughts come to mind, questions actually, when one expresses interest in pursuit of this sport. Do you want an old gun or a new build?

In the case of old rifles, sources include every avenue ever imagined from gun stores to auction houses and everything in between. I've seen a number of both picket and slug guns on the block at gun shows here in Florida. Such rifles are frequently without tools and that can be a problem, but it drives the value down tremendously, and the price along with it. A quality Billinghurst slug rifle with all tools can gut a $10K bill. Less notorious builders can still bring a substantial ticket, but in my limited experience such guns that are in good condition may be found for less than $5,000. From what I've seen, they can still run with the big dogs.

Newer guns such as built by Ken Bresein may go for less than $4K all up. Note from one of the previous posts, one such rifle won the 2009 NRC match in Cody with a very short string score.

I would urge anyone interested in an older piece to not turn you back on a gun without tools. There are a lot of them out there and given some TLC and ingenuity they are fully capable of fine shooting. It helps if you are a machinist or know one. If not, folks at one or more of the links above can provide help or direction to someone that is capable of doing what is needed. This can include the crafting of a new false muzzle.

New builds can be easier, or more difficult, depending on what you want. One of the things to consider on this path is whether or not you wish to compete in match competition, the significant point being the rules. If you noticed, the NRC rule for certain matches requires pre 1900 technology. Not materials, the technology which may be a design such as used by MVA for their scopes (Malcom). These are details to be attended to by match shooters, not those wishing to just fiddle with something a little different.

Barrels are another consideration. I rather suspect one reason for the massive barrels of the older guns was, on one part the desire for weight as an accuracy aid. On another, it may well have been safety. Very large bullets and powder charges raise a ruckus and keeping your limbs and face connected is desirable. Today the availability of large diameter blanks is limited to a very few barrel makers. I don't mean to say they cannot be had, just that they are not a casual purchase. The barrel on the rifle built for me by Wyoming Armory is new, and I rather think about as big as you can get without a lot of hoo-haw. It is also strong enough to handle major charges of lead and powder...if you don't mind the recoil.

Actions: There are few limitations here. I've seen under hammers, sidelocks, in-lines, side hammers and now, even a flintlock. Drum and nipple apparatus is out for slug rifles due to the pressure they generate. Otherwise, do what you want. For the record, in-lines have been around for a long, long time. The designs may have evolved a great deal, but it wasn't long after the introduction of the percussion cap that the first percussion in-line came along...a few decades after the first in-line flintlock. Not much is new under the sun.

Caliber: Large bores are fun, but they are not absolutely required to be competitive. What is necessary to some degree is a reasonable ballistic coefficient. As an example, picket rifles can and have competed at 40 rods and in some cases done well. They are not however generally considered competitive with slug rifles and BC is the reason. If you can drive a .38 caliber bullet with BC comparable or close to that of a .50 caliber, you got yourself a footrace. It takes a faster twist in the .38 to do that, but don't think the match results will be determined solely on such things. Given a somewhat level playing field, it is the shooter that will win, not the gun.

And if you fancy yourself a machinist, you can build an underhammer gun from scratch, save maybe for the barrel. Wait, I knew a guy that made his own barrels too.....

Have fun!

They can be set up for either type primer. One of their advantages is a hotter ignition if one uses boxer primers, another is containment of primer spall and/or hot gases. The technology was in use in the 19th century as I understand it, though not especially common. Sealed ignition also allows for a bigger charge without generating hammer blow back.

you are welcome dan!
I call this sport the hobby with a workout. Making a trip to the range is quite an event as everything is very heavy! Plan on an hour of setup and takedown. I bought mine online. Dan's prices are accurate. I would love an 'antique' someday, but right now I am happy with my late 50/early 60's set. The machine work is unbelieveable and I have no fear of it holding together.
As far as how the slug gun shoots, I will snap some pics of the targets that came with the gun. The previous owner was working up loads in 1964 and has it marked down. It appears they were shot at 100 yards ? As the number '100' is used? looks like he was putting 6-10 rounds under an inch, he was trying multiple different slug profiles, as shown in the prior pics

Just occurred to me that I left out some discussion on patch techniques.

There are two alternatives to cross strip patches. One is the Chase Patch which is a single wrap with the seam running length on the bullet and the skirt of the patch folded gently around the base of the bullet. The other is a wrapped patch conventional to cartridges. I've never seen wrapped patches used in this type of rifle.

The Chase Patch generally requires swabbing the bore prior to starting the bullet and requires a small fixture to facilitate proper patching. It is essentially a piece of metal stock w/ proper sized hole which allows the patch strip to be inserted in tube form, followed by the bullet. It holds it all together while the skirt is folded over the base. After that the whole package is loaded in conventional manner.